September 16, 2021 • 32 mins
Our guest is Patricia Gregory, an historian of women’s football in the UK who is writing a book on its history. Patricia became the Hon. Assistant Secretary of the Women’s Football Association from its inception until taking over as Hon. Secretary from Arthur Hobbs in 1972. A position she held until 1981 when through her encouragement a full time official was appointed – a full time job, running a club and a league as well as duties for the WFA proved too much. Prior to becoming an Hon. Life Vice President in 1984, until the dissolution of the WFA in 1993, she served for a year in each capacity as Liaison Officer and Chairman. She was invited to become a member of the UEFA Women’s Football Committee in 1979 serving 7 terms until 1993. After the WFA ceased she served for a time on The Women’s Football Alliance Committee of The FA. Patricia has been a Vice-President of The Women of the Year Association since Tony Lothian first invited her to take the role along with the late Erna Low. She has spent over 45 years in sports broadcasting for BBC and ITV and was one of the founders of the Women’s Football Association in the late 1960s. Patricia was one of the first women in England to qualify as a referee and was a member of the UEFA women’s football committee for fourteen years.
Host: Chris Stafford
For more information, links and resources plus conversations from the world of women’s sport including articles, blogs, videos and podcasts visit wispsports.com. WiSP Sports is the World’s First and Only Podcast Network for Women’s Sport with more than 60 hosts, 1300+ episodes across 50 shows and over 7 million downloads. WiSP Sports is on all major podcast players. Follow WiSP Sports on social media @WiSPsports. Contact us at info@wispsports.com.
Host: Chris Stafford
For more information, links and resources plus conversations from the world of women’s sport including articles, blogs, videos and podcasts visit wispsports.com. WiSP Sports is the World’s First and Only Podcast Network for Women’s Sport with more than 60 hosts, 1300+ episodes across 50 shows and over 7 million downloads. WiSP Sports is on all major podcast players. Follow WiSP Sports on social media @WiSPsports. Contact us at info@wispsports.com.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:03):
Sports, the voice of women's word. Hello, I'm Chris Stafford, and
thank you for downloading a sport infocus here on WHISP Sports and helping us
to turn up the volume on women'ssports. My guest today is Patricia Gregory,
(00:30):
who is an historian of women's footballin the UK and she's writing a
book on its history. Patricia becamethe Honorable Assistant Secretary of the Women's Football
Association from its inception until taking overas the Honorary Secretary from Arthur Hobbs in
nineteen seventy two, a position sheheld until nineteen eighty one. Went through
(00:50):
her encouragement a full time official,was appointed a full time job running a
club and a league, as wellas duties for the WFA, which all
proved too much and prior to becomingan honorary life Vice president in nineteen eighty
four until the dissolution of the WFAin nineteen ninety three, she served for
a year in each capacity as LiaisonOfficer and chairman. She was invited to
(01:15):
become a member of the UEFA Women'sFootball Committee in nineteen seventy nine, when
she served seven terms until nineteen ninetythree, and after the WFA ceased.
She served for a time on theWomen's Football Alliance Committee of the FA,
and with the FA recently reaching amilestone, I put it to her that
(01:36):
the history of women's football really beganin the UK oh, I would say.
So, what the anniversary last weekwas was the fiftieth anniversary of the
inauguration meeting of the Ladies Football Associationof Great Britain, a title which we
had for a very short amount oftime because in Great Britain we have the
(02:00):
separate men's associations and whilst we werenot recognized in nineteen sixty nine because women's
football, would you believe was stillillegal because in nineteen twenty one, the
Football Association, which governs football inEngland, they banned women from playing football.
(02:22):
They said that they gave the reasonsas they weren't convinced that it was
suited a sports suited to the femaleform, and they were all so worried
that money ostensibly raised for charitable purposeswas actually reaching those charities. So what
(02:43):
did you say to that, Well, I didn't know anything about this nineteen
twenty one rule when in nineteen sixtyseven I came along and I didn't support
a team, but my father did. My father was a Tottenham Hotspurs supporter
and held out for many years,and in fact till I was fifteen before
(03:07):
he would take me to white HartLane, which is the ground of Spurs.
And he was not convinced either thatfootball was anything that women should have
anything to do with, but hedid eventually take me and in nineteen sixty
seven we went to watch Spurs bringback the FA Cup to Tottenham. I
(03:30):
was standing in the crowd and thought, why don't girls play football? Because
it just I don't know. Itcame to me, so I wrote a
letter to my local newspaper and theyprinted it, and then girls wrote to
me saying they wanted to join myteam. Now the problem there was,
of course I didn't have a team. But we had a meeting in my
(03:51):
parents' house and all these girls cameand I must have been tasked with going
off to sort out all the details. But when I contacted my local council
about hiring training facilities and a pitchto play matches on, they said,
oh, no, you can't haveeither of those because you are unaffiliated football.
(04:15):
And this was all because of thenineteen twenty one rule. We didn't
stop there though, because I well, I didn't have anywhere that we could
train. But again, the localnewspaper article was seen by a men's team
in the Tottenham area in North Londonand they said, well, come and
(04:35):
share our training facilities. So thatwas one problem solved. But then we
didn't have anybody to play or anywhereto play. So I put an advert
in a soccer magazine and men's andboys' teams replied to this saying, well
you can come and play on ourpitches. So that's what we did in
(04:58):
the main. But this advert wasalso seen by a gentleman called Arthur Hobbes
who lived in Kent and he wasorganizing a tournament for women's teams. The
first tournament actually only had eight teamsin it, and we're talking nineteen sixty
seven. So we went down toKent to look at the tournament and this
(05:20):
was our first contact with other women'steams. Over the ensuing couple of years
there were more teams and we weretalking with Arthur because he eventually resolved that
we should have a governing body.I mean, it made sense that we
had a governing body. Hence,at the end of the nineteen sixty nine
(05:44):
tournament. The tournament, the playersand the teams in that tournament sort of
morphed into the Women's FA, which, as I said earlier, was initially
called the Lady's Hoop Association of GreatBritain because we didn't realize that we wouldn't
be able to be to cover allof the British countries. But we swiftly
(06:08):
became the Women's FA after our firstmeeting, and we still had in membership
a few Welsh teams because they hadno organization to belong to the Scots,
they formed themselves a little later intothe Scottish Women's FA, and the Irish
was still also even Southern Ireland theywere also affiliated to the WFA as it
(06:30):
became. So you then found teamsto play with. Presumably it started to
pick up its own momentum. Yeah, it did, and the logical thing
to do was to form leagues.So my league was the Southeast of England
League, and this was based aroundNorth London and about fifty miles away the
(06:54):
area of Luton, so we hadteams in that sort of triangle, well
I suppose you would call it,and we were I still maintain we were
the first league, but I knowwe were always in dispute with a couple
of other leagues about who was first, as in offering you are so,
yes, we got going with astructure. Later on, in nineteen sixty
(07:17):
nine, the Football Association did rescindthe nineteen twenty one rule, which meant
of course that we could I couldgo out and hire a pitch from the
council or higher training facilities, andalso as importantly, we could have the
services of qualified referees, because untilthat time any referee who refereed a women's
(07:41):
match was usually can't say always,but usually suspended by their parents association because
because they did unaffiliated football, whichwomen's football was. When once we got
the w FA going, we wehad a dialogue with the FA, but
(08:03):
nothing much happened with them. Wejust pottered along and it wasn't until the
end of nineteen seventy one when youafer the European governing body of football.
They had a meeting where they decidedby thirty one votes to one to take
(08:26):
control of women's football because they obviouslyrealized that it was growing and the one
by the way was Scotland. Theyhung out for a little longer, but
that meant in February nineteen seventy two, the Football Association recognized the Women's FA
as the sole governing body of women'sfootball in this country, that being England
(08:50):
at the present time. So thatput us on a firm shall we say,
regulatory footing. If you go backin history, women's football was being
played in Britain even in the eighteeneighties. It grew more in the eighteen
nineties and particularly around about the timeof the First World War in the early
(09:16):
nineteen hundreds, when the men wereaway fighting and women assumed all sorts of
jobs that men would normally do,and one of those seems to have been
that they took up football. Now, one of the things that we keep
hearing still today, Patricia, isthe lack of changing facilities, locker room
(09:37):
facilities where women are still having tochange in the car. You know,
they're not afforded the same facilities asmen are at fixtures at venues, I
should say. And then the secondpart of that is also equipment that women
are still having to buy, youthcleats and equipment that you know that now
(09:58):
I think that's slightly changing. Thatthere are companies that are you know,
latching onto the fact that there's alot of women playing soccer and I would
assume a real problem back in yourday. Oh well, we didn't see
it as a problem, but itwas a situation absolutely which existed in the
nineteen sixties and when we were formingthe first England team. I remember going
(10:20):
to a sports shop and outfitters andthey were trying to convince me that the
girls should wear divided skirts and notshorts. I don't know whether you remember
it. I do hockey. Ithink hockey they have very often wire of
them and I absolutely said no,no, they will not wear them.
(10:43):
They want to wear shorts. Soyes, you're you're right. I think
it is only in the last fewyears that manufacturers have come along and are
now producing kit for females. Absolutelyright, But there were all sorts of
problems change facilities. That was inactual fact for my team. That worked
(11:03):
for us, because I remember Iwas able to hire a pitch on Hackney
Marshes and vast area in the Eastof London because I couldn't get anything in
my open borough which was classed asNorth London. But I was able to
hire on Hackney Marshes and there wasonly one block of changing rooms. I
(11:24):
don't know how many changing rooms werein there, but I know that we
were given preference over the men becausethis area is a vast area of football
pitches, and the men were notgiven access to the changing rooms so that
the girls could have it. Butequally I have Yes, when I was
playing many years ago, you wouldtravel to a ground and very often change
(11:48):
in the car or not even changed, go ready, ready changed, And
that meant you went home very muddyand listeners what. Yes, that was
a distinct problem. I doubt thatthat still exists, but I don't know
enough about it today. It's possible, yeah, but yes, certainly fifty
(12:13):
years ago that was the norm.Let's go back a little bit further.
You had mentioned there where soccer actualfootball actually began in the late nineteen hundreds.
There. Tell us what you knowabout the first records really of women
playing football. Well, it wasthe late eighteen hundreds, so we're talking
(12:33):
about the eighteen eighties eighteen nineties.I first became aware of the history when
a journalist many years ago sent mean article from what was a newspaper then
called the Daily Sketch, And thiswas from eighteen ninety five, and it
was a match entitled called Northeast South. I don't truthfully know whether it was
(12:58):
North of England players of the Southof England players, but their organizer was
a lady called Nettie J. Honeyball. I've always believed this to be her
real name. It's quite an extraordinaryname, but I've always believed it to
be her real name. However,in recent years there are journalists who say
that because of the opposition to womenplaying football in the early nineteen hundreds eight
(13:24):
hundreds, they very often didn't playunder their own name, so they had
a pseudonym. So there is thattheory, but I have not well,
I have not set out to proveit or disprove it. I've tried the
family tree route by looking up theplayer, and I've not been able to
positively to identify her. So sadlywe may never actually know her true identity.
(13:50):
But she was certainly playing in theeighteen nineties and a bit later on
the very famous British team called DickKerr's Ladies. They were formed in that
they worked in a factory in Prestonand they played all over the world for
many years and played in front oftens of thousands of spectators. They are
(14:15):
very well documented if anybody wanted tolook them up on the internet. Another
famous British team was Manchester Corinthians fromobviously Manchester, and they were still around.
They were one of the founder membersof the of the Women's FA in
(14:35):
nineteen sixty nine and they only ceasedto exist a few years ago. I
love the idea of them having pseudonymsto be anonymous. It sounds a little
bit like Roller Derby today. Yeah, it is a bit. I mean
in the early when I was runningmy team and in the early seventies,
(15:00):
I thought I ought to know abit more about the rules of the game,
so I decided to train to bea referee. And we're talking now
about seventy three, seventy two,seventy three, and whilst the Women's FA
had now been recognized by the FootballAssociation. If you wanted to be a
referee before that, take you awoman, you could you could go through
(15:26):
a course at the County Association andyou could qualify, but that was it.
You weren't in that you weren't entitledto referee matches. Anyway, we
come along and I remember doing mycourse through the Middlesex County and I'm three
women the night I qualified, butwe were in limbo because we were not
(15:46):
allowed to register with the county association. However, the Women's FA had by
that time agreed with the Football Associationthat we could register women referees, but
only for women's matches. And itwasn't until seventy five, nineteen seventy five
when the Sex Discrimination Act came inin Britain and a young lady wasn't prepared
(16:11):
for this to affect her, andshe persuaded her MP to ask questions in
Parliament and the Football Association lifted theban on women referees referring anything other than
women's matches. And now you've justhad the World Cup this summer, which
(16:33):
was I believe totally female officials.Yeah, what a difference it certainly.
It certainly shows, you know,the evolution of the game. And I
think that's what's fascinating about football.It really has enjoyed the revival. It's
just grown and grown and grown andgrown, hasn't it since since the sixties?
Since it has and when I wasfirst in touch with the USA teams,
(16:57):
this is this is just club sized, not a national team, because
it didn't exist then. So we'retalking in the early seventies. I had
quite a lot of contact with peoplerunning teams in North America and it was
fascinating for me the different way oforganizing the teams, because it used to
(17:22):
be that any girl who turned upfor a match had to be given time
to play in the match, whereasin Europe we strictly stuck by. You
named your number of substitutes and youcould only draw from those substitutes in a
given match. And it just wasa different approach in Europe. When the
(17:51):
nineteen seventy one vote was taken byUEFA and they allowed each of their member
associations, who were then thirty twocountries, they allowed each of them to
choose how they took control of women'sfootball. With the exception of the British
countries, Italy and Portugal, everyother nation in Europe chose to take women's
(18:17):
football directly into its organization. Sofor example, the German FA has always
governed women's football directly, the FrenchFA, etc. But in Italy,
nobody's ever quite sure how the Italiansevolved. But in Britain we had our
own associations running women's football with theshall we say blessing of the football governing
(18:45):
body in the country. And itwas only the Women's FA. It was
only in ninety two, when wewere heavily in debt that we decided now
as the time to approach the FAabout taking us over. And that has
seen an enormous financial investment in women'sfootball in England and hence the success that
(19:08):
the England team now reaps. Yeah, it's grown enormously. Now, so
what what's your reaction then to whenyou watch the growth internationally? I mean,
obviously the growth in England has beenwonderful and the England team, you
know, are really making their markon the world stage. But when you
(19:29):
watch the growth in other countries,the expansion of teams in minority countries,
you might say who. And thenof course the amateurs too. Let's and
we did a story just a coupleof weeks ago on the San Diego Soccer
women's team and that gave us apicture of how many amateurs there are playing
the sport and at all ages.Oh well, we're talking over here in
(19:59):
Englan. I mean the players aremainly amateur, but there's one little story
that sort of captures the essence ofthe international scene. In nineteen eighty one,
we were invited Women's FA was invitedto take England to Japan and they
(20:21):
also invited They left it to usto invite two others because in England was
pretty good. In nineteen eighty one, they invited us to bring two other
European sides, good European sides toJapan because the Japanese FA was planning their
future strategy and they knew that theirteam, their national side, had to
(20:44):
have good opposition. So we wentwith Italy and Denmark to Japan in nineteen
eighty one to play a four teamtournament. In twenty eleven, who won
the World Cup Japan. So whatI'm what I'm saying is that that may
have been thirty years but they wereplanning that and and it's it's just interesting.
(21:15):
I like that story. I'm sorry, it's it's interesting. It's interesting
for me because I've been around solong to have watched not just in my
country, but in all all overthe world. This year's World Cup,
you know, there was representation fromeverywhere. I remember being in correspondence with
(21:40):
the IOC back in the seventies andI was told that no sport could go
into the Olympics until it was playedon all of the continents. Well,
happily now we know that it isplayed on all of the continents and it
is now a fixture. Women's footballis now a fixture in the Olympic program.
(22:02):
So that's that's very heartening to see. And it's also heartening to see
that if a girl wants to playfootball, she can do so. It's
not so very difficult. No,it's very very accessible, I think,
and certainly over here in the Statesthere's so many schools that play juniors,
(22:23):
that play the youth it's very veryaccessible. So as someone who's watched the
sport grow, what was your reactionto this year's World cume, Patricia?
Were you watching a lot of it? I was very interested. I still
I still think that the rest ofthe world has got a little bit of
(22:44):
catching up to do with the USAteam, But yeah, they might not
have it all their own way soon. I was really very very taken with
the the standard. I mean,the standard is unrecognizable from fifty years ago.
I can't I happen to comparison Ican make with the early nineteen hundreds.
(23:07):
I can't do that, but no, it was. It was good
and it was good to see.The best thing I think was and I
can only talk from the British perspective, the way it was received by the
television audiences, and it undoubtedly spreadthe word amongst the public. You would
(23:32):
have people even on public transport talkingabout the matches that they had watched.
What I hope that we don't loseis I like to call it the simplicity
of the game, but I don'twant to see it get into the way
that some men's matches do you know, violent, I don't. I don't
(23:56):
want to see that. It's muchas it's simplest form, if you understand
what I mean. Yes, yes, I think, and it was so
the authenticity, really, the purenessof it well exactly, and that's why
I hope that we don't that wedon't lose that. Still Heavens I've got
(24:22):
I've got detractors, even in myown family who don't think it was that
good to watch. But equally Icould I could name you lots of people
who did enjoy it for what theywere seeing, and it was. It
was very heartening. I think that'swhat attracts a lot of people to it,
really don't because they don't want tosee the violence of the men's game.
(24:45):
Totally got me hooked, and I'mone of those people that were just
started watching men's football because it,yeah, it became so dirty and just
not the pleasant spectacle. So when'swomen's football became, you know, the
standard of play just improved and improvedto what it is now and I'm totally
riveted. I mean, I've justI've become a soccer fan, which I
(25:07):
never would have been for men's right. I grew up as a child in
Northamptonshire watching the Cobblers with my father, but because you know, my father
and brother did that's where you wentback in those bars back in the day.
And then I went off meant themen's game completely as as for reasons
I just pointed out. But nowI've gone completely full flipped over to the
(25:30):
women's game and just totally totally riveted. So I'm curious then, why putting
you on the spot, Hippatricia.What is it about us? The US
team, that team that won theWorld Up this year? What is it?
What do they have that the othershave? Got to catch up to
strategically now, and I'll be talkingreally technical about the sport. I would
(25:52):
well, I was going to saytheir fitness. I think they lasted much
better than some of the other teams. I don't know, Um, I
don't know. I'm not I'm notthe best person to answer that question because
I'm not a into the how canyou put it the dynamics of the game.
(26:17):
For me, it was their fitnessthat shone through and saw them succeed.
They don't give up, do they? No, they don't. They
they're they're tremendous amount of self belief, yes, self confidence and yeah,
totally as a as a unit,as a unit, as a team,
(26:38):
and as well as individual being individualathletes. So watching the as you say,
the popularity of that, the enormousglobal audience that it received by TV,
I mean, it's grown the gameenormously over this summer and made a
lot of these players, certainly overhere, made them stars. You see
them every day on social media doingfashion shoots and and press gigs. I
(27:03):
mean, it really has done notjust a lot for women's soccer, but
it also has done a great dealfor women's sports generally. Empowering women,
empowering girls and encouraging them to getinto soccer or sports in general. So
where do you see this going her? Can you see this in your lifetime
(27:23):
becoming something even more than what itis now? Oh? I would,
I would think, So what Idon't I don't aspire to them competing with
the men. I also don't wantI don't think it's right to compare the
(27:45):
men's game or the women's game withthe men's game. You will need to
look at it as completely separate entity. I think that it can get better
and stronger, and as long asit is regarded as a separate sport and
really not to be compared with themen. I would not favor. And
(28:11):
it's probably not for me to sayit shouldn't happen, having been through everything
that we've been through, but Iwould not favor mixed matches. I don't
see any benefit in that. Ihave seen some charitable, charitable matches on
an international level, country against country, but international players in side mixed players,
(28:37):
so you'd have some men and somewomen. That's not something I think
he's going to do anything for us. But I'd certainly see the standard just
as it has improved in my fiftyyears. I certainly see the standard generally
of women's football improving, and generally, I mean the rest of the world
(28:59):
will catch up with the USA.Ah, well, I'm going to watch
that with interest. Now you reallylaid down the gorton, haven't you.
I think I'm right. I knewthat. I knew that England wasn't going
to be for you USA, soI think I'm fairly confident. All right,
Well, we'll watch with interest.Of course, we have a new
coach here now, replaced Joellelis justrecently, so we'll be watching that unfold.
(29:25):
And meanwhile, you have a gamethis weekend in against Germany. That's
a that's a big international for England. It's a friendly England Germany at Wembley
and it is a sellout, whichis which is good. And there will
also be the opportunity for former Englandplayers to attend the match, and we'll
(29:48):
just be important for them to getafter all this time, some public recognition.
And finally, before you go,Patricia, tell us about the book
you're writing. Well, I've decideda few years ago I wrote my own
website because the Football Association didn't,in my view, carry very much about
(30:10):
the women's history on its website,so I thought, well, I'll write
my own. I'm old enough thatI'm quite capable of writing it. But
I had to get my younger nephewto actually create the website, so that
wasn't a problem. And I've justdecided that there really is. I don't
want to die before telling the fullstory of our journey from the beginning in
(30:38):
the nineteen sixties until we handed itall over to the FA. I'm only
going to concentrate on the women's FAhistory and there's enough. There's enough there,
I think, having lived through thetime, I think there are enough
anecdotes that will lighten the historical sideof it all. And you may be
(31:00):
able to add a piece to thatbook about England beating the US somewhere.
Well, if if it takes us, if it takes as long to write
as it is taking me to research, yes, very proflic let's hope.
So, Patricia, thank you somuch for taking time to come on the
show and tell us about the historyof women's soccer, certainly in the UK
(31:22):
who are leading the country and it'sabout, as you say, to take
over the world and beat the US. So thanks again. Thank you.
Hi, I'm a Cold Route,I'm an Irish racing driver and a proud
WHIST ambassador. High support Whisper becausethey had to increase visibility in women's sport.
This is quite important because I'll helpto encourage girls in sport. If
(31:44):
you have row models look up to, you can follow me on Facebook,
Twitter and Instagram. I'm Nacold RouteRacing. Thanks for listening and supporting Whisper
And if you hop over to thewebsite at which sports dot com you'll find
a link to Patricia's website and numberof references to the history of women's soccer.
And don't get to share the loveon social media by following us on
(32:07):
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time, thanks for listening and supportingwomen in sport everywhere.
Sports, the voice of women's word. Hello, I'm Chris Stafford, and
thank you for downloading a sport infocus here on WHISP Sports and helping us
to turn up the volume on women'ssports. My guest today is Patricia Gregory,
(00:30):
who is an historian of women's footballin the UK and she's writing a
book on its history. Patricia becamethe Honorable Assistant Secretary of the Women's Football
Association from its inception until taking overas the Honorary Secretary from Arthur Hobbs in
nineteen seventy two, a position sheheld until nineteen eighty one. Went through
(00:50):
her encouragement a full time official,was appointed a full time job running a
club and a league, as wellas duties for the WFA, which all
proved too much and prior to becomingan honorary life Vice president in nineteen eighty
four until the dissolution of the WFAin nineteen ninety three, she served for
a year in each capacity as LiaisonOfficer and chairman. She was invited to
(01:15):
become a member of the UEFA Women'sFootball Committee in nineteen seventy nine, when
she served seven terms until nineteen ninetythree, and after the WFA ceased.
She served for a time on theWomen's Football Alliance Committee of the FA,
and with the FA recently reaching amilestone, I put it to her that
(01:36):
the history of women's football really beganin the UK oh, I would say.
So, what the anniversary last weekwas was the fiftieth anniversary of the
inauguration meeting of the Ladies Football Associationof Great Britain, a title which we
had for a very short amount oftime because in Great Britain we have the
(02:00):
separate men's associations and whilst we werenot recognized in nineteen sixty nine because women's
football, would you believe was stillillegal because in nineteen twenty one, the
Football Association, which governs football inEngland, they banned women from playing football.
(02:22):
They said that they gave the reasonsas they weren't convinced that it was
suited a sports suited to the femaleform, and they were all so worried
that money ostensibly raised for charitable purposeswas actually reaching those charities. So what
(02:43):
did you say to that, Well, I didn't know anything about this nineteen
twenty one rule when in nineteen sixtyseven I came along and I didn't support
a team, but my father did. My father was a Tottenham Hotspurs supporter
and held out for many years,and in fact till I was fifteen before
(03:07):
he would take me to white HartLane, which is the ground of Spurs.
And he was not convinced either thatfootball was anything that women should have
anything to do with, but hedid eventually take me and in nineteen sixty
seven we went to watch Spurs bringback the FA Cup to Tottenham. I
(03:30):
was standing in the crowd and thought, why don't girls play football? Because
it just I don't know. Itcame to me, so I wrote a
letter to my local newspaper and theyprinted it, and then girls wrote to
me saying they wanted to join myteam. Now the problem there was,
of course I didn't have a team. But we had a meeting in my
(03:51):
parents' house and all these girls cameand I must have been tasked with going
off to sort out all the details. But when I contacted my local council
about hiring training facilities and a pitchto play matches on, they said,
oh, no, you can't haveeither of those because you are unaffiliated football.
(04:15):
And this was all because of thenineteen twenty one rule. We didn't
stop there though, because I well, I didn't have anywhere that we could
train. But again, the localnewspaper article was seen by a men's team
in the Tottenham area in North Londonand they said, well, come and
(04:35):
share our training facilities. So thatwas one problem solved. But then we
didn't have anybody to play or anywhereto play. So I put an advert
in a soccer magazine and men's andboys' teams replied to this saying, well
you can come and play on ourpitches. So that's what we did in
(04:58):
the main. But this advert wasalso seen by a gentleman called Arthur Hobbes
who lived in Kent and he wasorganizing a tournament for women's teams. The
first tournament actually only had eight teamsin it, and we're talking nineteen sixty
seven. So we went down toKent to look at the tournament and this
(05:20):
was our first contact with other women'steams. Over the ensuing couple of years
there were more teams and we weretalking with Arthur because he eventually resolved that
we should have a governing body.I mean, it made sense that we
had a governing body. Hence,at the end of the nineteen sixty nine
(05:44):
tournament. The tournament, the playersand the teams in that tournament sort of
morphed into the Women's FA, which, as I said earlier, was initially
called the Lady's Hoop Association of GreatBritain because we didn't realize that we wouldn't
be able to be to cover allof the British countries. But we swiftly
(06:08):
became the Women's FA after our firstmeeting, and we still had in membership
a few Welsh teams because they hadno organization to belong to the Scots,
they formed themselves a little later intothe Scottish Women's FA, and the Irish
was still also even Southern Ireland theywere also affiliated to the WFA as it
(06:30):
became. So you then found teamsto play with. Presumably it started to
pick up its own momentum. Yeah, it did, and the logical thing
to do was to form leagues.So my league was the Southeast of England
League, and this was based aroundNorth London and about fifty miles away the
(06:54):
area of Luton, so we hadteams in that sort of triangle, well
I suppose you would call it,and we were I still maintain we were
the first league, but I knowwe were always in dispute with a couple
of other leagues about who was first, as in offering you are so,
yes, we got going with astructure. Later on, in nineteen sixty
(07:17):
nine, the Football Association did rescindthe nineteen twenty one rule, which meant
of course that we could I couldgo out and hire a pitch from the
council or higher training facilities, andalso as importantly, we could have the
services of qualified referees, because untilthat time any referee who refereed a women's
(07:41):
match was usually can't say always,but usually suspended by their parents association because
because they did unaffiliated football, whichwomen's football was. When once we got
the w FA going, we wehad a dialogue with the FA, but
(08:03):
nothing much happened with them. Wejust pottered along and it wasn't until the
end of nineteen seventy one when youafer the European governing body of football.
They had a meeting where they decidedby thirty one votes to one to take
(08:26):
control of women's football because they obviouslyrealized that it was growing and the one
by the way was Scotland. Theyhung out for a little longer, but
that meant in February nineteen seventy two, the Football Association recognized the Women's FA
as the sole governing body of women'sfootball in this country, that being England
(08:50):
at the present time. So thatput us on a firm shall we say,
regulatory footing. If you go backin history, women's football was being
played in Britain even in the eighteeneighties. It grew more in the eighteen
nineties and particularly around about the timeof the First World War in the early
(09:16):
nineteen hundreds, when the men wereaway fighting and women assumed all sorts of
jobs that men would normally do,and one of those seems to have been
that they took up football. Now, one of the things that we keep
hearing still today, Patricia, isthe lack of changing facilities, locker room
(09:37):
facilities where women are still having tochange in the car. You know,
they're not afforded the same facilities asmen are at fixtures at venues, I
should say. And then the secondpart of that is also equipment that women
are still having to buy, youthcleats and equipment that you know that now
(09:58):
I think that's slightly changing. Thatthere are companies that are you know,
latching onto the fact that there's alot of women playing soccer and I would
assume a real problem back in yourday. Oh well, we didn't see
it as a problem, but itwas a situation absolutely which existed in the
nineteen sixties and when we were formingthe first England team. I remember going
(10:20):
to a sports shop and outfitters andthey were trying to convince me that the
girls should wear divided skirts and notshorts. I don't know whether you remember
it. I do hockey. Ithink hockey they have very often wire of
them and I absolutely said no,no, they will not wear them.
(10:43):
They want to wear shorts. Soyes, you're you're right. I think
it is only in the last fewyears that manufacturers have come along and are
now producing kit for females. Absolutelyright, But there were all sorts of
problems change facilities. That was inactual fact for my team. That worked
(11:03):
for us, because I remember Iwas able to hire a pitch on Hackney
Marshes and vast area in the Eastof London because I couldn't get anything in
my open borough which was classed asNorth London. But I was able to
hire on Hackney Marshes and there wasonly one block of changing rooms. I
(11:24):
don't know how many changing rooms werein there, but I know that we
were given preference over the men becausethis area is a vast area of football
pitches, and the men were notgiven access to the changing rooms so that
the girls could have it. Butequally I have Yes, when I was
playing many years ago, you wouldtravel to a ground and very often change
(11:48):
in the car or not even changed, go ready, ready changed, And
that meant you went home very muddyand listeners what. Yes, that was
a distinct problem. I doubt thatthat still exists, but I don't know
enough about it today. It's possible, yeah, but yes, certainly fifty
(12:13):
years ago that was the norm.Let's go back a little bit further.
You had mentioned there where soccer actualfootball actually began in the late nineteen hundreds.
There. Tell us what you knowabout the first records really of women
playing football. Well, it wasthe late eighteen hundreds, so we're talking
(12:33):
about the eighteen eighties eighteen nineties.I first became aware of the history when
a journalist many years ago sent mean article from what was a newspaper then
called the Daily Sketch, And thiswas from eighteen ninety five, and it
was a match entitled called Northeast South. I don't truthfully know whether it was
(12:58):
North of England players of the Southof England players, but their organizer was
a lady called Nettie J. Honeyball. I've always believed this to be her
real name. It's quite an extraordinaryname, but I've always believed it to
be her real name. However,in recent years there are journalists who say
that because of the opposition to womenplaying football in the early nineteen hundreds eight
(13:24):
hundreds, they very often didn't playunder their own name, so they had
a pseudonym. So there is thattheory, but I have not well,
I have not set out to proveit or disprove it. I've tried the
family tree route by looking up theplayer, and I've not been able to
positively to identify her. So sadlywe may never actually know her true identity.
(13:50):
But she was certainly playing in theeighteen nineties and a bit later on
the very famous British team called DickKerr's Ladies. They were formed in that
they worked in a factory in Prestonand they played all over the world for
many years and played in front oftens of thousands of spectators. They are
(14:15):
very well documented if anybody wanted tolook them up on the internet. Another
famous British team was Manchester Corinthians fromobviously Manchester, and they were still around.
They were one of the founder membersof the of the Women's FA in
(14:35):
nineteen sixty nine and they only ceasedto exist a few years ago. I
love the idea of them having pseudonymsto be anonymous. It sounds a little
bit like Roller Derby today. Yeah, it is a bit. I mean
in the early when I was runningmy team and in the early seventies,
(15:00):
I thought I ought to know abit more about the rules of the game,
so I decided to train to bea referee. And we're talking now
about seventy three, seventy two,seventy three, and whilst the Women's FA
had now been recognized by the FootballAssociation. If you wanted to be a
referee before that, take you awoman, you could you could go through
(15:26):
a course at the County Association andyou could qualify, but that was it.
You weren't in that you weren't entitledto referee matches. Anyway, we
come along and I remember doing mycourse through the Middlesex County and I'm three
women the night I qualified, butwe were in limbo because we were not
(15:46):
allowed to register with the county association. However, the Women's FA had by
that time agreed with the Football Associationthat we could register women referees, but
only for women's matches. And itwasn't until seventy five, nineteen seventy five
when the Sex Discrimination Act came inin Britain and a young lady wasn't prepared
(16:11):
for this to affect her, andshe persuaded her MP to ask questions in
Parliament and the Football Association lifted theban on women referees referring anything other than
women's matches. And now you've justhad the World Cup this summer, which
(16:33):
was I believe totally female officials.Yeah, what a difference it certainly.
It certainly shows, you know,the evolution of the game. And I
think that's what's fascinating about football.It really has enjoyed the revival. It's
just grown and grown and grown andgrown, hasn't it since since the sixties?
Since it has and when I wasfirst in touch with the USA teams,
(16:57):
this is this is just club sized, not a national team, because
it didn't exist then. So we'retalking in the early seventies. I had
quite a lot of contact with peoplerunning teams in North America and it was
fascinating for me the different way oforganizing the teams, because it used to
(17:22):
be that any girl who turned upfor a match had to be given time
to play in the match, whereasin Europe we strictly stuck by. You
named your number of substitutes and youcould only draw from those substitutes in a
given match. And it just wasa different approach in Europe. When the
(17:51):
nineteen seventy one vote was taken byUEFA and they allowed each of their member
associations, who were then thirty twocountries, they allowed each of them to
choose how they took control of women'sfootball. With the exception of the British
countries, Italy and Portugal, everyother nation in Europe chose to take women's
(18:17):
football directly into its organization. Sofor example, the German FA has always
governed women's football directly, the FrenchFA, etc. But in Italy,
nobody's ever quite sure how the Italiansevolved. But in Britain we had our
own associations running women's football with theshall we say blessing of the football governing
(18:45):
body in the country. And itwas only the Women's FA. It was
only in ninety two, when wewere heavily in debt that we decided now
as the time to approach the FAabout taking us over. And that has
seen an enormous financial investment in women'sfootball in England and hence the success that
(19:08):
the England team now reaps. Yeah, it's grown enormously. Now, so
what what's your reaction then to whenyou watch the growth internationally? I mean,
obviously the growth in England has beenwonderful and the England team, you
know, are really making their markon the world stage. But when you
(19:29):
watch the growth in other countries,the expansion of teams in minority countries,
you might say who. And thenof course the amateurs too. Let's and
we did a story just a coupleof weeks ago on the San Diego Soccer
women's team and that gave us apicture of how many amateurs there are playing
the sport and at all ages.Oh well, we're talking over here in
(19:59):
Englan. I mean the players aremainly amateur, but there's one little story
that sort of captures the essence ofthe international scene. In nineteen eighty one,
we were invited Women's FA was invitedto take England to Japan and they
(20:21):
also invited They left it to usto invite two others because in England was
pretty good. In nineteen eighty one, they invited us to bring two other
European sides, good European sides toJapan because the Japanese FA was planning their
future strategy and they knew that theirteam, their national side, had to
(20:44):
have good opposition. So we wentwith Italy and Denmark to Japan in nineteen
eighty one to play a four teamtournament. In twenty eleven, who won
the World Cup Japan. So whatI'm what I'm saying is that that may
have been thirty years but they wereplanning that and and it's it's just interesting.
(21:15):
I like that story. I'm sorry, it's it's interesting. It's interesting
for me because I've been around solong to have watched not just in my
country, but in all all overthe world. This year's World Cup,
you know, there was representation fromeverywhere. I remember being in correspondence with
(21:40):
the IOC back in the seventies andI was told that no sport could go
into the Olympics until it was playedon all of the continents. Well,
happily now we know that it isplayed on all of the continents and it
is now a fixture. Women's footballis now a fixture in the Olympic program.
(22:02):
So that's that's very heartening to see. And it's also heartening to see
that if a girl wants to playfootball, she can do so. It's
not so very difficult. No,it's very very accessible, I think,
and certainly over here in the Statesthere's so many schools that play juniors,
(22:23):
that play the youth it's very veryaccessible. So as someone who's watched the
sport grow, what was your reactionto this year's World cume, Patricia?
Were you watching a lot of it? I was very interested. I still
I still think that the rest ofthe world has got a little bit of
(22:44):
catching up to do with the USAteam, But yeah, they might not
have it all their own way soon. I was really very very taken with
the the standard. I mean,the standard is unrecognizable from fifty years ago.
I can't I happen to comparison Ican make with the early nineteen hundreds.
(23:07):
I can't do that, but no, it was. It was good
and it was good to see.The best thing I think was and I
can only talk from the British perspective, the way it was received by the
television audiences, and it undoubtedly spreadthe word amongst the public. You would
(23:32):
have people even on public transport talkingabout the matches that they had watched.
What I hope that we don't loseis I like to call it the simplicity
of the game, but I don'twant to see it get into the way
that some men's matches do you know, violent, I don't. I don't
(23:56):
want to see that. It's muchas it's simplest form, if you understand
what I mean. Yes, yes, I think, and it was so
the authenticity, really, the purenessof it well exactly, and that's why
I hope that we don't that wedon't lose that. Still Heavens I've got
(24:22):
I've got detractors, even in myown family who don't think it was that
good to watch. But equally Icould I could name you lots of people
who did enjoy it for what theywere seeing, and it was. It
was very heartening. I think that'swhat attracts a lot of people to it,
really don't because they don't want tosee the violence of the men's game.
(24:45):
Totally got me hooked, and I'mone of those people that were just
started watching men's football because it,yeah, it became so dirty and just
not the pleasant spectacle. So when'swomen's football became, you know, the
standard of play just improved and improvedto what it is now and I'm totally
riveted. I mean, I've justI've become a soccer fan, which I
(25:07):
never would have been for men's right. I grew up as a child in
Northamptonshire watching the Cobblers with my father, but because you know, my father
and brother did that's where you wentback in those bars back in the day.
And then I went off meant themen's game completely as as for reasons
I just pointed out. But nowI've gone completely full flipped over to the
(25:30):
women's game and just totally totally riveted. So I'm curious then, why putting
you on the spot, Hippatricia.What is it about us? The US
team, that team that won theWorld Up this year? What is it?
What do they have that the othershave? Got to catch up to
strategically now, and I'll be talkingreally technical about the sport. I would
(25:52):
well, I was going to saytheir fitness. I think they lasted much
better than some of the other teams. I don't know, Um, I
don't know. I'm not I'm notthe best person to answer that question because
I'm not a into the how canyou put it the dynamics of the game.
(26:17):
For me, it was their fitnessthat shone through and saw them succeed.
They don't give up, do they? No, they don't. They
they're they're tremendous amount of self belief, yes, self confidence and yeah,
totally as a as a unit,as a unit, as a team,
(26:38):
and as well as individual being individualathletes. So watching the as you say,
the popularity of that, the enormousglobal audience that it received by TV,
I mean, it's grown the gameenormously over this summer and made a
lot of these players, certainly overhere, made them stars. You see
them every day on social media doingfashion shoots and and press gigs. I
(27:03):
mean, it really has done notjust a lot for women's soccer, but
it also has done a great dealfor women's sports generally. Empowering women,
empowering girls and encouraging them to getinto soccer or sports in general. So
where do you see this going her? Can you see this in your lifetime
(27:23):
becoming something even more than what itis now? Oh? I would,
I would think, So what Idon't I don't aspire to them competing with
the men. I also don't wantI don't think it's right to compare the
(27:45):
men's game or the women's game withthe men's game. You will need to
look at it as completely separate entity. I think that it can get better
and stronger, and as long asit is regarded as a separate sport and
really not to be compared with themen. I would not favor. And
(28:11):
it's probably not for me to sayit shouldn't happen, having been through everything
that we've been through, but Iwould not favor mixed matches. I don't
see any benefit in that. Ihave seen some charitable, charitable matches on
an international level, country against country, but international players in side mixed players,
(28:37):
so you'd have some men and somewomen. That's not something I think
he's going to do anything for us. But I'd certainly see the standard just
as it has improved in my fiftyyears. I certainly see the standard generally
of women's football improving, and generally, I mean the rest of the world
(28:59):
will catch up with the USA.Ah, well, I'm going to watch
that with interest. Now you reallylaid down the gorton, haven't you.
I think I'm right. I knewthat. I knew that England wasn't going
to be for you USA, soI think I'm fairly confident. All right,
Well, we'll watch with interest.Of course, we have a new
coach here now, replaced Joellelis justrecently, so we'll be watching that unfold.
(29:25):
And meanwhile, you have a gamethis weekend in against Germany. That's
a that's a big international for England. It's a friendly England Germany at Wembley
and it is a sellout, whichis which is good. And there will
also be the opportunity for former Englandplayers to attend the match, and we'll
(29:48):
just be important for them to getafter all this time, some public recognition.
And finally, before you go,Patricia, tell us about the book
you're writing. Well, I've decideda few years ago I wrote my own
website because the Football Association didn't,in my view, carry very much about
(30:10):
the women's history on its website,so I thought, well, I'll write
my own. I'm old enough thatI'm quite capable of writing it. But
I had to get my younger nephewto actually create the website, so that
wasn't a problem. And I've justdecided that there really is. I don't
want to die before telling the fullstory of our journey from the beginning in
(30:38):
the nineteen sixties until we handed itall over to the FA. I'm only
going to concentrate on the women's FAhistory and there's enough. There's enough there,
I think, having lived through thetime, I think there are enough
anecdotes that will lighten the historical sideof it all. And you may be
(31:00):
able to add a piece to thatbook about England beating the US somewhere.
Well, if if it takes us, if it takes as long to write
as it is taking me to research, yes, very proflic let's hope.
So, Patricia, thank you somuch for taking time to come on the
show and tell us about the historyof women's soccer, certainly in the UK
(31:22):
who are leading the country and it'sabout, as you say, to take
over the world and beat the US. So thanks again. Thank you.
Hi, I'm a Cold Route,I'm an Irish racing driver and a proud
WHIST ambassador. High support Whisper becausethey had to increase visibility in women's sport.
This is quite important because I'll helpto encourage girls in sport. If
(31:44):
you have row models look up to, you can follow me on Facebook,
Twitter and Instagram. I'm Nacold RouteRacing. Thanks for listening and supporting Whisper
And if you hop over to thewebsite at which sports dot com you'll find
a link to Patricia's website and numberof references to the history of women's soccer.
And don't get to share the loveon social media by following us on
(32:07):
WHISP Sports. We'd love to hearfrom you, so you can post your
comments there wherever you follow us,and I hope you'll take some time to
check out some of the other showsthat we have here at WHISP Sports and
we are the only global podcast networkfor women's sports. So until the next
time, thanks for listening and supportingwomen in sport everywhere.
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