7/3/25 - The Saga of Jackie Godsey

The Anchormen embark on the saga of Jackie Godsey – a musician/philosopher struck by homelessness since the pandemic. Jackie describes the challenge of being a completely normal/sane/intelligent person looking for a job to get off the streets, only to run up against the trappings of the Homeless Industrial Complex; being outcast by society, the struggle to find purpose; and surviving by being present in the moment and appreciating the small blessings in life.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Now it's time for the Anchorman podcast.

Speaker 2 (00:09):
With Matt Yates and Dan Ball. We're doing something completely
different on today's episode of Anchormen. We've been talking about
the homelessness challenge in California from almost every angle. We've
talked to lawmakers, community advocates, We've talked to people in

(00:31):
the law enforcement and first responder community. But we hadn't
talked to someone who had actually lived out the experience
of being homeless in the state of California, day in
day out. We didn't know what to expect when we
met Jackie recently, and we found someone who is deeply caring,
deeply thoughtful, and who thinks about a lot of the

(00:54):
questions that may be on your mind and maybe on
the mind of people who are having to somehow wrangle
the intersection of great wealth and opportunity among some and
then others who have fallen through the cracks. In this discussion,
I've found a piece of my own humanity, and I
hope you will too. This is my favorite interview I've
done on Anchorman. Enjoy. So I'm here with Vish and

(01:17):
I'm here with Jackie, and we met Jackie. Vish and
I were at a comedy club in La Jolla, California,
and we met Jackie on the way out, and you
were like just as interesting as everybody we just heard
from in the comedy club. So we wanted to come
chat with you. And what we always like to do
is just ask folks who you are, where are you from,

(01:38):
Just tell us a little bit about your life.

Speaker 1 (01:42):
I mean, there's a lot to pick from, so if
there's anything particular, I'm originally from North California. My mother's
up there in Cloverdale. Turn fifty this year, so you know,
I've got that half century of experiences to draw from.
But you know, I've just I've just had an extremely

(02:04):
varied and colorful life. So there's anything you want to
know about it?

Speaker 2 (02:08):
To tell tell us about the moments that that you
find most interesting or colorful. And in half a century
on earth, what do you look back and say makes
the highlight reel?

Speaker 1 (02:16):
Well, Like, you know, I mean, I'm homeless at the moment, unfortunately.
And one thing that that people just don't seem to get,
even if they say they get it, they don't really
get it, which is that basically anybody could be helmeless, right,
And when people say they get that a lot of
times they think, oh, sure, anybody could have a drug problem,

(02:40):
or anybody could be schizophrenic, and it's like, well, no,
like anybody could, like even if it's even if it's
very unlikely, literally anybody could find themselves in a position
where they just don't have any more options. And that's
just sort of where I landed after living in my
car for three years during the pandemic, like twenty twenty

(03:03):
to twenty twenty three. It's traveling the country living in
my car, working a lot because it's living in your
car is expensive, so I was mostly just doing door dashing.
What are the costs of living in your just like
hotel food, you know, it's like every couple days you
want to get a hotel room. Eating out is super expensive.
And also just like out of boredom, I just work

(03:25):
all the time. So I wasn't really enjoying the experience,
but you know, still it was it was by choice.

Speaker 2 (03:30):
It was like that was a choice you made during
during COVID. You decided you want to live out of
your car and kind of make your car into your business.

Speaker 1 (03:36):
And well I had to move, and I was facing
if it was like, well, I'm going to have to
move to Why do you have to move back to
the West Coast? Just like the my I had My
wife had left me in like twenty eighteen, and then
I was staying with somebody, and just like the situation
where they had to you know, they're like they were
going to have to move. So I was just gonna
have to move, I see, And it was just time.

(03:58):
It was time to get out of the area, time
to get back to the West Coast. And that turned
into you know, I was like, well, I'm just going
to take my time about it. And as I was
just going from place to place like Saint Louis to Vegas,
a Boulder, just traveling six months at a time in
each place, I was just enjoying that part of it

(04:19):
where I was like, well, I don't want to just
stay here. And then unfortunately my car, I thought it
was just the battery, tried to fix it, had no
more money, had to junk it. That was in Vegas
and that was two years ago, and.

Speaker 2 (04:31):
So you don't have a car anymore, right, because.

Speaker 1 (04:33):
The last time I was out here, I lived in
Ocean Beach ten years ago and that was one of
the last times I was out here, like successfully, I thought, well,
this is a place I know, this is somewheready come
back to.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
You know, well, compare for me, like the experience of
living in the car for three years versus what you're
doing now.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
In a lot of ways, it's funny, it was actually
more stressful and like harder because when you're living like
people don't realize, like sleeping on concrete, you get used
to that pretty quick, like just physically it's not uncomfortable.
And once you get used to like finding a place
that no one's gonna bother you it, it really becomes
a bit of a it's like minor inconvenience. But when

(05:16):
you're when you're living in your car, you you you
can't really like put your car somewhere without scrutiny, so
you're always having to like move it. You're always having
to like go from coffee shop to coffee shop, and
you've got nothing to do, and you know, you've got
no way to have a social outlet, so you know,
it's just it's it's it's very isolating. You know, you

(05:37):
spend all your day just sitting in your car. In
a way, it's worse than being on the street because
you're not even encountering people. You're not even getting that,
you know, you're not even getting that part of life.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
So if you had, if you had the money, Like
it doesn't sound like a car would be your next purchase.

Speaker 1 (05:52):
Well it probably would, just because it would let me
go right back to work, just because I still have
like active door, Dash and Uber accounts, I could just
like go right back to that.

Speaker 2 (06:00):
So that I've noticed that, I've noticed that this that
like in America today, the car is almost is a
really big dividing point for a lot of Americans because
of what Jackie just said, Like, if you have a car,
you are a few clicks away from being able to
generate some revenue.

Speaker 1 (06:18):
And even if it's not DoorDash or even if it's
not strictly car based, if you have a vehicle, it's
so easy to think, well if, if, if this person
needs this, and I can get this cheaply here, put
it in my car, transport it here. The American well,
you know, it's like the American dreams like capitalism. It's
not easy to do that if you don't have a
place to like store your goods. But like I've I've

(06:40):
I've certainly noticed a lot of things where I could, like, well,
I could probably make money by like I see a
need here, I could fulfill that need by you know,
transporting one good from there to there. Or I could like,
you know, do something like I'm a Tarot card reader,
so I could I've always had that option of, like, well,
I can do entertainment. And when you don't have a car,

(07:01):
you don't have any kind of base of operations. There's
just no way to to like have a legitimacy.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
How would you even describe your base of operations now
non existent?

Speaker 1 (07:13):
And I mean I'm lucky in that I have like
an area of town where I feel comfortable in and
I've been in the same area for like you know,
like I said, look, I've been there for like a
year and a half at this point, and it's it's
good to have the option of, like, oh, people know you.
And and if if if I was ever like God forbid,
like bleeding or something, I think that I could like
probably say, hey, you've seen me around, you know, can

(07:34):
you call an ambulance?

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Well, you know, there's something interesting about that. But I
want you to react to this. I just was talking
to a friend of mine about some of the homeless
problems that they have in ob or in other parts
of southern California. This is real, and they say, you
know what, we have our people that we know that
are in the area, that we know aren't trying to
hurt anybody, just like Jackie said, somebody who could could

(07:59):
be in this situation for a very variety of reasons.
And we don't worry about those folks. They're here, we
know there's a familiarity. It's when, you know, we had
like a ton of migrants of illegal aliens who are
living on the streets that didn't have any real familiarity
with the community. And it's when sometimes you just have
this huge tourism push where at certain times of the

(08:21):
year you get kind of a traveling group of people
that don't have that same kind of connection. Do you
think do you think people think about it? Though?

Speaker 3 (08:28):
Oh, yeah, no, I know this firsthand. Actually, So when
I first moved to Staten Island, in my neighborhood, on
my block, there was exactly one homeless person that everybody
in the neighborhood knew. His name was Johnny, and you know,
we'd call him Johnny, give me a dollar because every
time you'd go walk by and me and says, hey, brother,
do you have a dollar?

Speaker 2 (08:49):
So, and there's a.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Church at the corner of my of my house, and
whenever church would come out, some of the congregants would
go over to Johnny and say, hey, would you like
a sandwich? Would you like so they would try to
help him. He lived there for give or a take, about
six or seven years. The thing is that people in
the neighborhood knew who his family was too, and they
would always go to Johnny and say, hey, you have

(09:11):
a sister in Pennsylvania. Why don't you go live with her.
His sister would come down and try to convince Johnny
to come back with her, and he would say, no,
I want to stay here.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
I want to stay here. And he would live on
the street.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
So that I was never scared of Johnny as a
kid growing up, because everybody knew Johnny. It was you know,
and it was fine. But this homeless tourism aspect that
you see now, which is incentivized also by some weird
laws in New York, or some weird laws in California,
or some vibes in California. Per se, you know, I
think that that is actually what's kind of hurting you know,

(09:46):
what's hurting these localities that are dealing with this homeless
problem on mass But do you know.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
Other people who like live around your area are who
are homeless as well? Is there like a community tutor?
Is it isolated?

Speaker 1 (09:58):
Well that actually what that kind of that ties into
something that what he was saying, that brings a couple
of things up where what people don't One thing that's
really what I think important to understand is that it's
I think that we should solve the easiest problems first
and when it comes to like because I've met a
lot of homeless people, and to be honest, the vast

(10:21):
majority of them are not like me, are not you know,
off drugs and sane and unfortunately. But here's the thing.
If someone is in a position like I am, where
all it takes is a job or all it takes
is like if I had, you know, housing, I could
immediately get a job. The only thing that's keeping me
from a job is nobody is going and I've had

(10:43):
to hire people. So I know this is like understandable,
but no one's going to take a chance on a
homeless person just because you know, like if you don't
know where you're going to sleep, are you going to
come into work tomorrow? You know, very understandable concern, but
that's but that's that's what gets me, is like, well,
there are a lot of almost people who have very
very difficult challenges, let's put it that way, and that's

(11:05):
a problem that's going to need to be solved. But
why not solve the easy one first and find the
ones that are like me and figure out some pathway
because right now there's just not like a pathway for
me to get off the street. There's not like a
there's no what would that look like?

Speaker 2 (11:20):
Like? Help us understand what?

Speaker 1 (11:22):
Well, for example, in the UK, what they've had for
a long time is they have government work agencies where
they you know, you go in and they help you
find a job, and we just don't do that in America.
I've never understood why. But it's just not really a
thing that like we're we're not really know.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
We have those, we have those in this country.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
Right right, right, But it's not like it's not in
the same sort of easy institutionalized way. It's more of
like a lot of it. When I've tried to go
to some programs in this county. They're like, well, do
you have a drug problem. We can get you into
halfway Home. And I'm like no, And they're like, do
you have okay are you are you schizophrenic? We can
get u SSI And I'm like no, I'd rather just

(12:02):
have a job. And they're like, well, we can't force
anyone to hire you because there's no incentive. There are
incentives to hire people who have like problems, like there
are tax breaks for that. There's no incentive to hire
someone who's just homeless. And they will never admit that.
Generally speaking, they'll be like, oh, well, let's keep at it.
But there's no like, there's just no, there's just no.

(12:24):
It's just not a thing. And I've never understood why.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
So me, the problem is, so, the problem is you're
a normal cisgender homeless man, and therefore there's no outlet
for you or no incentive for these programs to help.

Speaker 2 (12:40):
I think it's something more sinister than this, based on
some of the feedback we've gotten from from policymakers in
this area, there's a there's a homelessness industrial complex.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
That's it, right, that's what you already know what I'm
gonna say before I'm gonna say, there are you know,
because like, here's the thing. You look at someone like
me in a lot of ways. I am a pretty
normal person. And I don't mean that in like an
exceptional way. I'm you know, if someone if you're going

(13:09):
to talk about a program to help someone like me
get a job, they're going to say, great, what makes
him any different from all the other people who want
who want work, you know, why not just apply and
just go And if they don't want to hire you, well,
too bad. And I think that the what that's, what
that's overlooked or what that's not seeing, is that there

(13:31):
are and I don't I don't want to like I
don't want to sound like I'm being unhumble or like
I'm being arrogant, But there are homeless people like me,
who are you know? I went to UCF on a
full scholarship based solely on my SAT scores, not even
I didn't even get good grades. Like, there are homeless

(13:52):
people who are very intelligent, very willing to work, like
I've worked my whole life, and yet even for me,
there's no like I can't go to I can't go
and like sign and go like go to the SSI
office and say, hey, look, can you help me with
this job search? Because they'll they'll be like, well, that's
just not something we do.

Speaker 2 (14:13):
And you know, they'd rather get you on a program, right,
rather get you on a.

Speaker 1 (14:16):
Government program, right, They'd rather get me on on SSID.
And if there's no pathway for someone like me, how
do you expect the like the people who have it worse,
how do you expect like, what are we going to
do with them?

Speaker 2 (14:28):
Well, aren't they just aren't they just going to follow
the system into some halfway house rotating site.

Speaker 1 (14:34):
Thing is we're not even doing that intelligently. What I
was thinking about on the way here was we need
to like think of some rhetor radical new ideas, Like
when it comes to the homeless people who are truly
like so mentally unwell, they can't even integrate into society.
And I met one of them today, like I meet
them every day. They are very taxing on you know,

(14:57):
because they only bother they bother other homeless people. They
don't bother you know, quote unquote normal people that much.
They mostly bother. We bother each other. So anyway, when
it comes to someone like that, why not if we're
going to have to hospitalize that person, if we're going
to have to get them some kind of like mental

(15:17):
health help, why not at least turn that into some
kind of revenue, Like give them the option of blogging
all their thoughts. Because you know, as well as I do,
everyone in the world loves to watch other people on YouTube.
We love to just watch other people, and there are
people who are doing it for free. So why not
like just think of things like that. Well, if they

(15:38):
can't get a regular job, if they can't if they're
so mentally unwell that they can't even like wash dishes
for you know, for crying out loud, at least give them, like,
all right, you're gonna be in a mental health hospital.
And then we're going to turn that into revenue. Instead
of being a drain on the system, We're going to
actually create money. We're going to give them the option
to to like blog their thoughts. Ideas, take the ad

(16:01):
revenue from those videos, put it back into the you know, like, this.

Speaker 4 (16:05):
Is a this is an one incredibly creative idea to
take the economy of content creation and to take a
population like that.

Speaker 1 (16:16):
Like that to fix a problem instead of making it worse.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
I I don't know what the world looks like if
we arm the homeless population in this country with the
technical capability to blog and put stuff on the internet.
You have you have talked with me a lot about
how Twitter has changed and Instagram. I would say TikTok,

(16:39):
because there's so much stuff that like isn't really thought provoking,
but it's just captivating, Like.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
You know, that's what it's based on, that foundation of
the entire plot?

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Is that? Is that what we're talking about here?

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Well?

Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah, absolutely, there's I mean, there is value to the
content that captures you, but might not you know, spring
off some philosophical thoughts or create new knowledge and the
knowledge base out there. But that does perform well amongst
many people all across earth. Right when you consider that.

Speaker 2 (17:10):
Pool, Well, there will be some who watch this and say, well,
wait a second, like how technically deft is the homeless population?
And so maybe talk to us a little bit about
how many people you observe who are also homeless, who
have a cell phone, who have a laptop, like, who
have a Wi Fi hotspot? Like how is the communication
stream going? Now?

Speaker 1 (17:31):
Pretty much everyone has a cell phone because they have
the the you know, at the very least, you can
get the government phone, the free you know, the free
government phone.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
So the government of California is giving.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
Or the well, it's it's it's, it's it's it's not
just the government. They've partnered with those companies right to worthy,
the companies are actually making money by giving the pect
way for free somehow.

Speaker 2 (17:49):
Yeah, no, they're paying all the people who you know,
are paying taxes, right, are paying into that system. And
then so they all everyone has a cell phone.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Right, But but that's not but most people don't actually
take advance that. Like it's when you're homeless. Like people
look at me and they're like, well, you know, you've
got a phone, you've got this and that, and I'm like, well,
I don't drink or do drugs, you know a lot
Like when you're homeless, you're not generally having to. Like

(18:17):
if you see a homeless person digging in the garbage,
it's generally not because they have to. That's generally some
kind of choice in their head, you know.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
And why is that because food is well.

Speaker 1 (18:29):
Because even if you're homeless, you can make money, Like
there are ways, like even if it's panhandling. There's there
are ways to make a little bit of money.

Speaker 2 (18:37):
Is that the way most?

Speaker 1 (18:40):
I would say, Like, I mean, I play music, you know,
I've got the guitar thing. But I would say most
most will just do recycling. I mean of the ones
that I see doing anything besides just you know, I
mean a lot of them are on SSI. But the
ones that are actually doing things, they're just like recycling.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
I get why they're ONCID. It sounds like when you
go in to get a job, they really they're trying
to shoehorn you into into those things.

Speaker 1 (19:04):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
And uh, you know, I want to go back to
a really interesting point you made that if someone was
making a hire, because you are, you were providing a
case study and what a job does for a human
being when you describe what you would do with the
job and how it would dramatically improve your life, right,
And so that is.

Speaker 1 (19:23):
That's one thing is like, yeah, people you know, like like,
what do you want out of life now that you're
in that situation. And again, I've only been homeless for
two years. I've generally fairly normally I wouldn't make it
to night. But then people are like well, what do
you and I think like at this point, and just
after two years, I'm thinking back to, you know, times
in my life when I had a quote unquote crappy

(19:46):
job and a crappy apartment and I had a girlfriend
and I would you know, I'd go to my best
friend's house every night and we'd drink a six pack,
and I thought I had it bad. And I'm like thinking, like,
wait a minute, I would kill to be in that city,
Like I would kill to just have a crappy job
and just like wake up every like, oh, I just
got to go to work and just make money and

(20:06):
come home and like that's all I have to do.
That's all I have to worry about. That sounds great, Yeah,
And but at the time, like I never until I
was and there have been times where I've had to
like sleep on couches or in my car, but I've
never been in like in this situation before, right, And uh,
you know, it wasn't until I got in this situation
that I realized like all those times that I was

(20:26):
like complaining or that I thought that things were not
all that great, and I was like, wow, I have
a really boring life. But at the same time, it's like, well,
some maybe boring isn't so bad sometimes, you know, like.

Speaker 2 (20:38):
There are Do you think people are ungrateful?

Speaker 1 (20:41):
Yeah, I mean not that I was, but I I
just didn't have the camp I didn't even It's not
that I was ungrateful. I just didn't even realize like
the difference in like because you know, you look at like, oh,
it must be bad to be homeless. They don't. People
don't realize it's not the sleeping on concrete, it's not
the having to panhandle none of that stuff. That stuff
is all manageable because it's it's you. You can set

(21:02):
a goal and you can just do it. The part
about being homeless that people don't realize is so awful
is that you're just not treated like a quote unquote
normal person. There have been people I've met in the
past two years who had things in common with me
and should have been capable of like just becoming my
friend so that I have like, hey, that thing where

(21:23):
like once a week, so it's like, hey, you want
to come over and just drink a beer. To have
even having that in my life again, like just that
sort of like basic humanity, that's the sort of thing
that people don't realize. When you're homeless, you don't have that.
The only people I ever interact with are other homeless people,
and very rarely, you know, like I've said, And I

(21:45):
don't think it's just bad luck because I've met so
many people. It's just never, you know, I never meet
other homeless people who have like this level of what
I you know, capability of like talking without going off
on some bizarre are psychotic you know, Oh I have
a belief that they have.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
I know I have. I I mean, there's some people
who think my beliefs are psychotic. But I've talked to
people who are home.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
Like every now and then, I like, I'll meet a
homeless person who, like, I'll talk to them for thirty
minutes and I'll be like, oh, okay, they're they get it,
They're they're all right, they're they're pretty chill. But then
all of a sudden, like something that is just so
not real, Well, they'll start talking about it, and I'll
just realize, I just like, that's why they're home. You know,

(22:31):
It's like that because there's that there's there's something and
and again I like I know that, you know, as
as as eccentric as I am on my on my
worst days, I'm not anywhere close to what these people
are having to go through, and I I feel sorry
for them. But at the same time, it's like a
lot of a lot of what people go through is

(22:53):
self inflicted. And if you're if you're deciding to have
a loser script, and if you're deciding the world is
against you, if you're deciding that, you know, because as
bad as my situation is quote unquote bad, I never think.
I never wake up and think, Man, I hate being homeless.
I want to die. This sucks, you know. I wake

(23:13):
up every day and I'm like, well, you know, how
do you spend your days? Go get What people don't
realize is that a lot of homelessness is just wandering
from back and forth because it takes so long to
get from place to place. A lot of your day
is just going back and forth from one place to
the other. You know, Like if I have to go
hang out the library because there's you know, if I

(23:34):
don't have money, I can't hang out in any other
like restaurant type of place or coffee shop. So like, okay,
like walk to the library that takes thirty minutes. Then
oh wait, I got to go use the bathroom with
the CVS that takes fifteen minutes, got to wait twenty
minutes for the bathroom, And all these little increments of
time add up so much. There are a lot of
days where I don't get anything done, and I'm like

(23:54):
where did all the time go? And it's just all
those little things that you don't realize are a problem.

Speaker 3 (23:59):
The mundane things that just getting through them is actually
what takes up your time.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
Oh yeah, what was the last eventful day that you had?

Speaker 1 (24:11):
I'm trying to think, uh, like you mean in a
good way?

Speaker 2 (24:16):
Yeah, well in a good way anyway.

Speaker 1 (24:19):
That's the thing is, like it's unfortunately I've settled into
such a routine I can't even think of like an
eventful like, well, what's the most scaring the hurricane? Now
last year? When remember that hurricane came through last year? Yeah,
one thing I thought was super amusing about that, Like
I said, I had a at that time, I had
just like just hit the streets after like two months,

(24:41):
so it's just like my cargoes and then two months
later and at that time, I like, like I said,
still had dordash and uber accounts, and when that hurricane hit,
people were so terrified of leaving their hotels. I was
able to make like sixty dollars just walking some deliveries
from like you know, to the beach and back. Yeah,
so that was a pretty good day, you know. And

(25:03):
that's and that's what it goes back to what I
was saying earlier is that there are so many little
ways to make money that you know, like the biggest
challenge for me is not like, and I'm talking about
honest ways. Yeah, there are a lot of homeless people
who do dishonest things, but even and then that's an option,
but even like if you're talking about just honest ways,
the biggest issue is not making a little bit of money.

(25:25):
It's having some kind of purpose having like like, well
what am I making money for? Because there are a
lot of times I think about, you know, like oh
maybe I'll like I've got two dollars and I'll play Powerball,
Like what if I win? What would I even do
with it? And at this point, I'm like, I don't
know what would I even what would I even spend
this money on? Because once you get disconnected from that

(25:48):
that every day like oh this is what reality is
like you just do this and this and this, and
you like have that security, then you just like stop
stop wanting things in a sense like well, I guess I,
I guess I get a car or house.

Speaker 2 (26:01):
But what what do you want? What? What? What? What
gets you excited? Or what? What do you look forward to?
I don't know, Vish, what do you look forward to?

Speaker 3 (26:09):
I look forward to waking up every morning and trying
to make a difference, trying to either change the conversation
or inject something or or movie be in the fights.

Speaker 2 (26:21):
Let me recast what he's actually saying. What he's actually
saying is Vish wakes up every day figuring out where
he thinks he can deploy his talents to a fight
that he cares about that matters.

Speaker 1 (26:30):
Yes, basically, well, you know what, and if everyone in
the world did that, because that's that's that's what gets
me down a lot about about the state of the world,
is that there is so much that could be fixed
if everyone just cared. Because most people just don't care.
I don't know, why do you think that is? It
feels recent? Well, if I was gonna say, if you're

(26:51):
familiar with Adam Curtis, a documentary documentary filmmaker. He's got
a documentary called All Watched Over by Machines of Loving Grace,
and it's it traces, how, you know, based on like
things that started in the fifties and sixties, mostly in
like Silicon Valley and the tech industry, how we've learned
to base our society on these very simplistic, simple systems

(27:13):
and models of the world that we came up with
before we've really had like we had simple computers, we
had simple ideas, and we came up with these simple systems,
and we still believe in them, even though we have
learned that they're not accurate anymore. Like these models of
the world that we thought are models of nature, we thought, oh, yeah,
mother nature is a self correcting system. Turns out it's not.

(27:35):
Turns out it's just chaotic, you know, and it's not
like something that you can predict easily. And a lot
of that just came out of just like we had
very simple computers, and we just started to believe that
the world would operate the way they do, which is like, oh,
it's very simple, like social media, very simple engagement. Click,

(27:56):
if something is clicked on, it has value, right no other,
you know, there's no other like, oh, is it a
good idea? Doesn't matter? It was clicked on. Yeah, and
that's the sort of simple thing that we put our
faith in. It's like, maybe we should reevaluate that very
core idea. Maybe maybe clicking on something isn't inherently valuable.
Maybe like that, maybe there should be a little more

(28:17):
to the algorithm than just than just simple engagement.

Speaker 2 (28:22):
Yeah, I think that that we've come to create value
around that because there is an attention economy, right.

Speaker 1 (28:29):
That's right, because it's so easy to make money off
of it. If you make a fraction of a penny
off of everyone who watches a video, then there are
so many people in the world that that's going to
eventually be millions of dollars. But do you want to
make your life selling something that's only worth fractions of
a penny? You know, wouldn't wouldn't you rather sell something
like wouldn't you rather have people give you ten dollars

(28:51):
for like an album or like a book or something
of value?

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Well, you see what's how.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
That's how that translization of value like this, right, isn't
it like shouldn't Like if you're having a conversation like
this isn't this inherently just a little bit more valuable
than some random video that's just flashing on this you know.

Speaker 3 (29:10):
Well you see how that's that's essentially translated into the
world in the market now, right, you have people trying
to accrue so many fractions of those pennies via views
that they us, right, but now they go and do
crazy things to try and a crewe those views, right,
and people do crazier and crazier and crazier things to

(29:31):
get those views.

Speaker 2 (29:32):
So it kind of is a feedback loop that's happening.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
That's a big part of that documentary as right. Yeah,
it's like the idea that feedback loops are not necessarily
a good thing because they just make everything go crazy,
you know, they tune everything into overdrive because like it
just keeps going back and forth and back and forth,
and just yeah.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Politics is kind of that way too, is that way?

Speaker 1 (29:54):
Social media fling that way? And another thing I was
thinking about when you asked me to be on here
is that we are no longer interested in like thinking
of democracy as a good idea unless the guy we
like wins. Right, there are a lot of people who think, well,
if the if sixty percent of the people vote a

(30:17):
certain way and we have this going on, then oh well,
then they're just wrong. It's like, well, maybe it's not
about right or wrong. Maybe it's about that's just how
the very democracy has to work. Right, you have to
go with what most people want, and if it's bad,
we'll figure that out and hopefully most people will be
smart enough to say that's bad.

Speaker 2 (30:38):
And there are examples of that having happened. I mean,
we make mistakes in policy, we correct for those mistakes,
and we hope we learn. My experience, Jackie, is that
it's not that deliberative because of the corrupt influences. You know,
when I.

Speaker 1 (30:53):
Saw lost track of the amount of times in my
life like that I have thought, oh, politician, this is
a great politician, and I love this politician. Ten years,
five years later, I don't know, you know, and sometimes
we learn more that corruption. It's it's just because why
does anyone become a politician. I don't know if it's

(31:15):
usually for any good reason. I think it's usually for
for well maybe not. They become a politicians for a
good reason, but then once the machinery gets rolling, you
don't you don't stay a politician for good reasons. A
lot of the time, it's it's inertia. You've become part
of this machinery and you and at that point you
no longer have your own ideas. You're told this is

(31:37):
the party line, this is what you believe. Go talk
about it, you know, and you never are You're not
You're no longer changing the world in your image. You're
just become you know, part of this two parts.

Speaker 2 (31:49):
You know this w You're just an actor. You don't
even need Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
One side versus the other, heals versus faces.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
You know, this is we talk.

Speaker 1 (31:58):
You know, you know, I've said that since I was
like sixteen, Even when I was that young, it was
apparent to me. I was like, this whole thing is
a scam, the whole thing, it's all just they're they're
they're you know, the majority of what happens in politics
are not being The majority of things are not done
for any fundamental reason other than distraction, other than well,

(32:21):
if this is what these people care about, let's talk
about it, and like let's let's keep them busy. And
it's so very rarely is it based on like, let's
fundamentally make the world a better place, because, like we're
talking about in trench systems, it stops being about improvement.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
Do you buy my thesis that it's just about staying
in power and making money.

Speaker 1 (32:44):
And we have tied we we've we've, we've gotten, we've
We're in a culture that has tied money to power,
so intrinsically that is insane. They're fundible, like the right,
they are the exact same thing at this point. If
you have a ton of money, you have all the power, and.

Speaker 2 (33:04):
There's a lot of money. There's a lot of money
out there. So people with a lot of money win
and lose every day, right, And it's kind of like
when you watch a football game. Usually the team with
the best players wins, but every once in a while,
the team without the best players, but maybe had the
right scheme, had the right coach, had those stars aligned,
they can get the upset. Politics is very similar in

(33:26):
my observation that the side with the most money behind
them usually wins, and so you've got to use strategy
and tradecraft to get around that for things that really
do matter, and a lot of times, i mean, there
are times the moneyed interests happen to want things that
are like also good for the country. Sure, Actually there

(33:49):
are a ton of times. And you know, the cause
I've committed a lot of my life too, is stopping
wars that only happen because of those moneyed interests, and
we've lived through them during you know, most of my life, right,
and I don't want to do that anymore. And it's
interesting that you, at age sixteen, already had that keen assessment.

Speaker 1 (34:10):
Well, I you know, I was. I grew up a lot,
I moved around a lot, but I was lucky enough
to grow up mostly in middle and high school in
some very like like nice schools who actually cared about education.
So like I mean they had me reading nineteen eighty
four when I was eleven years old, nice and should

(34:31):
be and animal farm. Yeah. I honestly I was kind
of like, this is a little much, guys, like kind
of depressing, like you really want to put this in
me at this young age, but at the same time
like having already like being like at that young age
being told yes, look, history is written by the victors,
you know, and it's it's never about like once once

(34:54):
one party gets into power, it stops being about improving
the country and just becomes about it's just a job.
You just go and you clock in and clock out.

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Are you a man of fest?

Speaker 4 (35:03):
And?

Speaker 1 (35:03):
Look, I I know that it's never been true that
philosophers were ever politicians, right, Like, that's probably that's probably
something that's that's crazy to hope for. But wouldn't it
be nice if the people who went into politics were
literally the people who thought the most about the most
complex things in the world.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
Yeah, but I know too many philosophers I know, but
I know too many philosophers that like, well, couldn't figure
out how to do the dishes?

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah, right, who you know who couldn't fly a piece
of chicken?

Speaker 1 (35:33):
No, I'm not talking about I'm not talking about the universe.

Speaker 2 (35:35):
Who's like the closest that we have in politics to
like our our philosopher, King Steve Bannon. There you go,
do see he loves Steve Bannon. All right, I want
to ask you for this. Are you man of faith?
Do you pray?

Speaker 1 (35:48):
I'm a nastit Christian? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (35:50):
How does that inform your daily life?

Speaker 1 (35:52):
Uh? It's I came through. I came to it in
a really roundabout way when I, like you talk about
when I was sixteen until I was probably nineteen or twenty.
I was an agnostic. I grew up thinking I was
a Christian, but I didn't really care. I grew up
in a Baptist church, and I was baptized and went
to church and had a good experience in.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
So you accepted the Lord in a Baptist church, right right? Well?

Speaker 1 (36:16):
I did that, yes, And then how old were you
when you did that? I got baptized when I was eleven. Okay,
that was like a choice I made, yeah, And the
thing but the thing is it didn't really do that
much for me, and I was like why. And then
I went through a period of being an agnostic, and
then I sort of came back around to being a gnostic,
not agnostic, gnostic Christian through like some people I had

(36:39):
read and some you know, getting into some like more
of the older like religious texts like the you know,
the Original, like the Gospel of Matthew, the not just
the Bible, but all the texts from that time period,
and I got really interested in like philosophy, and then
I came back into like, oh, this this basic idea

(37:01):
that Jesus came up with is like let's just be
good to each other that has merit, that as like
not that doesn't that doesn't just have merit. That's like
such a big idea that most people aren't even like
ready for it. Most people don't really live their life
because think about it. If everyone in the world really
lived like in this pure way that and I know

(37:23):
it's unreasonable to say everyone, but let's say ninety ninety percent.
If ninety percent of the people, if every time they
saw like something bad, like some horrible injustice, that they
were like going to figure out how to fix it,
and not in a performative way, just like we got
to fix that. If everyone just was concerned, you know,
if everyone was like, we have to fix all this stuff.

(37:44):
And when I say injustice, I don't mean again, I'm
not talking about performative stuff. I'm not talking about you know,
like whatever like trendy topic you want, you know, like
I'm not talking about I'm talking about fundamental things, Like
it's an injustice to have someone like me who is
very willing to work and capable of working, sleeping on
the street when there's like furniture that's being housed, you know,

(38:06):
and he's not being housed. And I don't mean that's
an injustice in like in a righteous way, and I
don't I'm certainly not a proud full person. But at
the end of the day, it's like, would it hurt
society that much to help to like help some people
like me out who can give back, you know, because
you look at the homeless problem, it's huge. Let's at
least start with this, like this five percent who are

(38:29):
like me, who can get back in the workforce, who
can start giving back, who can start being a boon
to society again instead of being a drain on it.
Give me, Like I don't have a reason to live
right now. I'm not really that tore up about it.
But if you'd ask me what I have to look
forward to, and I'm like, huh, I don't have anything
to look forward to it and like, not in a

(38:50):
terrible way, I was like, oh, that's weird.

Speaker 2 (38:52):
Well even you know, I mean, I mean, look at
different people on but no, no, no, no, it's incredibly interesting.
And and when I talk about having something to look
forward to, please don't take that as me imposing like.

Speaker 1 (39:04):
Oh no, it was a good question, you know that,
but just like so relating people don't really ask me
that I'm like, huh, that's interesting to think about.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
Yeah, but I remember, even in some of my toughest
days on the planet Earth, like looking forward to a
nice walk, looking forward to a good day of the weather.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
That's what you do.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
That's that's what you learn a moment of kindness.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
Yeah, I like, I think my situation gets narrowed down
to such a such a point where I truly am
not thinking because I used to, like I said, when
I had like an apartment and a job, and like
formerly in my life, there would be times where I
would stress out and I'd be like, man, if I
get fired, i might not have a place, i might
not have rent next week, and I'd be so stressed

(39:45):
about that. And now, even though I'm in a quote
unquote worse position, I'm in a way I'm less stressed
out because I'm just thinking about, well, what's going on today.
Let's see, I've got I've got money, I've got food today.
I don't have to worry about that today. So let's
just worry about today. And you kind of narrow your
focus down like that, And I think I think you know,

(40:06):
when you say, like I'm not looking forward to anything,
it's not in a bad way. It's just like you
just stop looking forward. I think I think a.

Speaker 2 (40:13):
Lot of people who go through trauma are really going
to relate to that description, because when you're going through
any kind of trauma, it just becomes about that central
moment of focus.

Speaker 1 (40:24):
Yeah, Like when I had a really bad breakup when
I was like twenty three, love of my life. We
were together six years, leaves out of nowhere, and it
was like such it was one of those experiences where
for weeks afterwards, all I could do was at the time,
I was a pizza delivery guy, so all I could
do was foo from that job, drive around delivering pizza,

(40:46):
cry in my eyes, you know, just like silently weeping,
like stoically, just like you know, just like I am
going through the toughest thing I will ever go through,
you know, just because of one breakup. And that's the
kind of thing. You know, when you're younger, you can
think of like one thing can be such a horrible
But once you know, you get twenty thirty years on,
you realize you're gonna have a lot of those experiences.

(41:09):
And if you don't get used to it, if you
don't get tough quick, you know.

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(42:20):
your family today. What's the most scared you've been over
the last two years.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
I've been lucky in that I haven't been very scared.
But I will say that I think that's just down
to my own choices, because like, I don't go downtown
for example.

Speaker 2 (42:39):
You know, there are some scary I.

Speaker 1 (42:41):
Just don't, you know, as and I don't have a
reason to. I don't do math, so I don't have to.

Speaker 2 (42:46):
You know, are most of those folks there on meth? Most?

Speaker 1 (42:50):
You know, the vast, vast majority of homeless people are
either on meth or are drunks or on fentanyl. And
when I say vast, I mean in two years, I
have not met one other homeless person who was like me,
who didn't do that, who just like I met one

(43:12):
guy who I thought like because I you know, I
used to drink. I don't even enjoy drinking anymore. I
didn't quit drinking. I just I just don't like it, which,
trust me, I used to think that was impossible. I
used to be like, I'll never get tired of this
you know, but I somehow I just don't like it anymore.
But I met another homeless guy, like he also played guitar.
He actually gave me this guitar nice and you know,

(43:32):
I hung out with him for several months, and then
only when he left town did I find out that
he had been like on meth a lot of that time.
And it was like, oh, that explains a lot of
certain things where I thought he was just you know,
being eccentric.

Speaker 2 (43:47):
No, that's unfortunate because it would be hard to find,
like you have laid out a policy prescription to find
others who fit your conditions, and to have the type
of tailored programming that we would have for someone who
had a disability, was on drugs, you know, had some ailment.

Speaker 4 (44:07):
Right.

Speaker 1 (44:07):
So it's so weird to me that it's much easier.
I've met so many people who who say, oh, yeah,
I gotta they gave me a place. It's a halfway house,
you know, because I'm in a program, and do you
try to go to that? And it's like, I know, like,
don't get me wrong, people who are in that position
certainly may maybe need more help than me in a

(44:27):
certain sense. But in a sense the fact that I
don't need much help is why I'm saying maybe you
should help me. Not first, not like prioritize, but like
maybe if it's easy to help someone, maybe help that,
you know, because like I said, you turn around, You're like,
I don't know. It just drives me nuts.

Speaker 2 (44:45):
It just what do you I mean? Well, I guess
you said. Since you don't go downtown, there haven't met
you in the suburbs where you spend your time, there
aren't there aren't moments that give you fear.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
Every now and then I'll I'll encounter like here's something
that this is happened a couple of times now. The
other morning I got woke up. I was where I sleep.
I got woke up by this girl who looked fairly normal,
about mid twenties, dressed pretty normal, like you know, like
had makeup and totally looked like just a normal person

(45:17):
walking around. And she started talking to me about She
was like, oh, I know someone who can help you
get a job. Come with me and I'll help you,
you know. And she had like sort of a strange
Middle Eastern accent or not Eastern like Russian accent, and
it just became this very strange situation, and I began

(45:37):
to think it is like, like, are there actually like
people who are you know, I don't know. I don't
know if it was like a trafficking situation, but it
was like it just struck me as very strange, Like
this is not someone who is just like eccentric. She's
not just crazy. She's like she's like being very insistent
about certain things. She's like, oh, I know I can

(45:58):
help you get a job. Come with me. I'll be
right back, I'll be you know, come with me to
get a coffee, and you know. And then there have
been other times where I've met people like that, and
I'm wondering if it's just is it just you know,
people because there's an airport nearby, and it's like, oh, okay,
you know, someone from another country who happens to be
mentally unwell winds up on the street here because of

(46:20):
the airport proximity. Or is there something a little bit
stranger going on?

Speaker 2 (46:25):
You know that, because I'm glad you didn't find out
you don't want to wake up in a you know,
hotel bed with a a in a bath of ice
with no kidney.

Speaker 1 (46:34):
Yeah, because as strange as like weird as that sort
of thing sounds like those things are not just or
but like that does happen every once in a while.
And if you're going to pick off anybody, I would
expect it to be homeless people, so.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Right, especially when as you were saying, you kind of
are treated in this like outcast.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
And off way. Yeah, or someone to be so and
like I said, she was dreat like she like she
really she had a dirty backpack, but she was dressed
very nice otherwise and had like nice nails and like
makeup and like, and this was at six am. Very
strange situation.

Speaker 2 (47:11):
Yeah. Do do you have social media? Are there places
that you put out your music or other stuff you do?

Speaker 1 (47:18):
I do have an album on Spotify. I'll tell us
about put it out right before I came out in
twenty nineteen, I guess, right before I moved and went
on my road trip.

Speaker 2 (47:27):
Sure, sure, what's it called.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
The name of the band or the project is Airport
or Telephone and the album is prepared to be No One.
It's still up there on Spotify, so great.

Speaker 2 (47:38):
How about other forms of social media?

Speaker 1 (47:41):
I'm trying to I'm I have a decent phone, so
there's really no excuse for me to not like start
making videos of like just.

Speaker 2 (47:48):
Vis is going to help you get it set up
with an X account, with an Instagram, no reale.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
You need to appreciate it.

Speaker 2 (47:54):
Yeah, we will happily help.

Speaker 1 (47:55):
You will happily help because I have like I have
an old YouTube account, but I don't want to really like,
don't bother using it.

Speaker 2 (48:00):
What's gonna happen is tens of thousands of people are
going to see this discussion and it's gonna it's going
to shock them, and they're gonna want to know more
about your story.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
I hope I would think that a lot of people
are gonna be shocked by like, oh, he seems normal.
And it's like because so many people that I talk
to are like, you really don't seem like you're home.

Speaker 2 (48:18):
Well, and no one comes to this audience looking for normal.
If people are following me and vish it's normal, will
definitely be a shocking thing. I do want to I
have to know what's your best what's your best performing song?
When you're when you're playing what's the one you know
that it's the most likely to get a positive reaction

(48:39):
from someone?

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Uh, Blister in the Sun oh I love them song?

Speaker 2 (48:43):
Yeah, can we get a few? Can we get a
few bars the whole thing? You get a little blister
in the sun. I can do the intro, all right,
all right, we'll take that. We'll take that.

Speaker 1 (48:52):
Get that. Oh yeah, I just get my pick here.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
Oh there we go.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Right, Yeah, it is out of tune. But uh but
I mean if if you know, if you want to
ever make money in a bar, you don't really have
to learn much like two chords and you just play
play any kind of old eighty song you can, you know.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
Nice. Well, thanks Jackie, uh this. Did you have any
other questions for Jackie? Well?

Speaker 3 (49:20):
Actually, I think I might have stumbled into a SoundCloud
account that you had or.

Speaker 1 (49:26):
Oh I did put Yeah, there's one song on on
ice SoundCloud under my name. Yeah, because I was I
was working on the follow up to that album, and
there there is one song up on there.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, okay, yeah, that's why I was. I was. Yeah, Okay,
that's two our directors. We're going to get all the
information for uh, for Jackie's music under both of those
different projects. Uh. In when we when we published this,
we absolutely have to put it in the lower thirds
and and give people that.

Speaker 3 (49:51):
Direction, absolutely, And yeah, I just want to say, man, uh,
you know, to your point that that there is something
that you can do to you know, make money, even
if you're homeless.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
I'm from New York City and the homeless.

Speaker 1 (50:03):
You're up in Jersey. So you were telling the story earlier,
and I was like, yeah, I know exactly, Like you know,
like growing up in the suburbs of Jersey, it's like, yeah,
there's like one or two local guys like yeah, it's
almost like a like a like a protector of the neighborhood. Yeah,
oh yeah, he's that's him, you know.

Speaker 3 (50:22):
But the thing in Manhattan, the homeless there, a lot
of them will do some kind of entertainment.

Speaker 2 (50:29):
They'll saying they money. They are hustling out there, right.

Speaker 1 (50:33):
That's that's a lot of that California vibe. I think
it's just it's just people are just not that stressed
about it. And I'm just like, if you can make money,
just do it. Like like I said, I read tarot cards,
I play music, you know, anything that can make you
a few dollars. That's like value, giving value to the world,
Like why not, you know.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
Yeah, So I just wanted to say, like that's it's
very admirable that you even noticed that there's that kind
of separating factor and and uh, you know, I happen
to have noticed it too.

Speaker 2 (51:02):
Him, you know.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
And I'm glad that you have some kind of talent
keeping you keeping you going.

Speaker 2 (51:06):
Man.

Speaker 1 (51:07):
Yeah, right on.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Got anybody looking out for you, Jackie, anybody who you could? Family?

Speaker 1 (51:10):
You check in on my family, Like my dad's side
of the family, they're not you know, a lot of
a lot of times homeless people are like they're the
black sheep. In my case, my family is like all
black sheeps. They're like people I would not really want
to a lot of a lot of a lot of
drug use and just not good stuff on my dad's
side of the family. But my grandmother's still around. I

(51:33):
still talk to her. She's great. She's always been there
for me, basically raised me with my grandfather. So man,
like I said, my mom's still up in Cloverdale. She's
she's got cancer but totally remission, so she's hanging in there.

Speaker 2 (51:46):
You keep up with her, yeah, Always good to keep
up with your mother. Always good to.

Speaker 1 (51:51):
Send my little sisters up there too, you know.

Speaker 2 (51:53):
Well good, Well, we can't thank you enough for coming
by and sharing your perspective on a variety of issues.
You're obviously a very caring person, and you're obviously a
very smart person and thoughtful, and it's just nice to
have a pleasant conversation with a fellow human who has
had totally different life experiences. But I think there's something
collective about our humanity, and I think you've shined a

(52:15):
light on it in a really interesting and thorough way.

Speaker 1 (52:19):
And I think that's what a lot of people don't realize,
is that for a homeless person like me, like those
of us who are rare but who can have a conversation,
that's what I miss the most, is just talking to
people like if I had, if I had like people
to talk to once or twice a week, you know,
that would do so much to settle my mind about

(52:42):
my situation.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
Well, we hope you've enjoyed talking to us. Some people
do sometimes and not everyone does. But we would like
to continue to check back in with you and see
how things are going. And you know, as a lot
of these policy questions are addressed regarding how to help people, got.

Speaker 1 (53:01):
A chance to get really into politics.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Yeah, yeah, I mean we were kind of more interested in, uh,
just the nature of humanity on this We weren't gonna
quiz you on the like news of a day. Yeah,
it wasn't like, all right, Jackie, I'm gonna need to
know exactly how you break down the diddy verdict. I
I really just cared more about your story and that's

(53:24):
probably way more interesting than the news of the day
to people. But but as those things do arise, and
as those opportunities, you know, come to us, we'd really
like the chance to check back in with you, and we, uh,
we're gonna work to get you on social media. Uh.
It was your idea to have more content creation among
among your community, and so VIS is gonna help get

(53:45):
you on social media. We're gonna put your social media
on and you're gonna get a whole lot of new
followers who will be interesting, interested in the things you
have to say and want to communicate with you. Thanks
for being on all right, all right, that's it. That's
a wrap, man,