December 26, 2024 • 49 mins
In this deeply personal episode, Neisha opens up about her own shortcomings in our marriage and the lessons she’s learned from her missteps.
Together, we explore the power of forgiveness, the importance of reconciliation, and how accepting God’s grace has transformed our relationship. Marriage isn’t perfect, but it’s a journey of growth, healing, and love. Join us as we share real-life insights and encouragement for navigating the ups and downs of life and relationships.
Together, we explore the power of forgiveness, the importance of reconciliation, and how accepting God’s grace has transformed our relationship. Marriage isn’t perfect, but it’s a journey of growth, healing, and love. Join us as we share real-life insights and encouragement for navigating the ups and downs of life and relationships.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Here we go, y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Part two.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
What are your vibes?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Like?
Speaker 1 (00:09):
What are you feeling anything? And going into this?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Life is good? Man, life is good. It's great. Got
two beautiful girls, I got the mama.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
What does I have to do with you?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Asks me about life?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Okay? Now, actually, how are you feeling going into this episode?
But that's fine?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh you didn't finish the talk. I'm good excited?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, I mean too, it's uh fall vibes. I put
on a little face for you today. I know you
like your highlight like, yeah, a little. Sometimes I overdo
it though.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Mmm, it's strong. It's like it's like a runway on
the airport. But I like it though.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Okay, thank you. Part two of our Conversation of betrayal
and backstabbing.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
You know, I'm just kidding. Mm mmmm.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
This is this is I'm gonna be honest. So I'm
a little bit vulnerable going into this conversation cause now
I'm on my side of the story. As Wait, you
weren't vulnerable? Did you feel vulnerable talking about your stuff?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah, cause I had to dig it up and like
intentionally think about it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah. So are we s We've we sound uh uh
Naisily and congestion. I feel it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
So it's been a week. Our newborn, well she's not
newborn anymore, but our ten month old was in the
hospital for three days. I was with her. She has
like two different viruses. So we're getting over this cold.
But where we are here, we are still here, being consistent,
nonetheless having this, having this important conversation. So if we
sound Daisily, that's what's happening right now, is she actually
(01:41):
got us sick?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And Grandma too, Yeah, and my mom. So focus on
the message.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Please focus on the message, not the nails on this
So and the and the sniffling. We're gonna work through it.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, we don't get through it together.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Okay, So let's let's get into it. Okay. So for
the first episode, we kind of talked about your transgressions.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
That's such a spiritual word.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Okay, talk to me.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Thousands of people, it's gonna be okay, but I want
you to talk to me like the one in the world.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I'm the only one in the room you are. Thank you.
So transgressions, why did I use that word? What is
that even?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Like?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
How would you define.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
That you have crossed the line your transgressions.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Okay, well, we're finna talk about some.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Word transgressions across the lines.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Across the line. So for your story, you know, it
was really interesting to hear your perspective. We didn't go
into too much detail about the actual act itself, but
I think the message was clear in the sense of,
like you learning how to actually count the costs, you know,
me talking about extending grace and forgiveness and forgiveness, Yeah,
(02:56):
immediately through that specific thing, which is not an easy
thing to do. And we're not saying that, hey, this
is the way, the life, the truth, but it did
work for us, and it did pay off in our marriage,
and we would, you know, encourage you all to get
to a point in your relationships where forgiveness actually can
come easy, because it can so. But yeah, so let's
(03:18):
talk about my situation in my story, because I'm not
innocent in this predicament of Okay, just relax, I'm not innocent.
My situation is a little bit different in the sense
that I didn't make an actual physical betrayal sin mine
(03:41):
was more so mental. Okay, mine was more so mental
and emotional. So I think for my particular situation, it
was kind of like a slow burn. It was like
you kind of got to see signs. I think that's
so interesting too, when we think about when we think
about when we're in a specific situation that we know
(04:05):
is not all the way right. I'll say it that way,
not that it's just like blatantly obvious to you that
something is wrong. Yeah, I think the deceiving part is
that you know that, uh, this is not all the
way right. And I wanna definitely like keep my pulse
on that theme of like when you know something is
not all the way right. And so for me, I
(04:27):
was in a predicament where I was like, Okay, I'm
saying that, okay, this is not all the way right
in this particular situation, and things start to evolve, things
start to grow, time starts to pass, and then you
realize that you have ah that I have. I won't
make it external, I'll make it personal that I have
invested now kind of like an emotional tie to someone
(04:50):
where it's like, oh, this is interesting, like th and
kind of surprising because like I said, it was a
slow burn, yeah, because it kind of just happened over time.
It wasn't something thing that was just like all of
the sudden or abrupt. It was like so casual.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes, that's what eventually trip both of myself because of
that slow blowing. That's a good term because if it
was abrupt, if it was in my face, I would
have I would have been able to deter it. Yeah,
but you know, like on the last episode, Yeah, that's
a that's a very good way.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, it was more of like a slow burn.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, and I think they like slipped through my general
defenses where we agreed on. Of course the gave me
to each other.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, because it's not like, okay, like how some people
they end up having, you know, they end up cheating
on each other because of a drunken night. And it's
just like it's just a very like your face in
your face, obvious distinct moment where you're like, dang, okay,
I I I I messed up. Yeah, but for us,
I think both of our situations differently. Yours had happened
(05:58):
to be physical, might happen to be emotional, but it
was in the scene surface, Okay, Okay, okay, in this sense,
it was still like slow burn, yeah, okay, to the
point to where like it took time for it to
actually evolve.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yes, it kind of like burrowed this way under defense.
You know where you can the ground is uh soft,
and you can go under defense and brow burrow like
a tunnel if you will, and then you you slip
past the general generic like defenses.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, so definitely slow burn.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I think for me in my situation, it was just
so shocking to me in itself because I had learned
from your situation. I had we had your particular situation
to kind of be I guess the blueprint, Yeah, the
(06:50):
blueprint for like you know, how to navigate this situation,
how to do, what not to do. And so I
was just so shocked when I was actually, you know,
finding myself in a similar predicament. And I remember the
day that I actually had to reveal that to you,
still making sense of it myself, still trying to figure out,
you know, how did I even get to this point,
(07:11):
How did I even you know, end up in this
particular situation. And and and to me to h being
in now in the per in the hot seat, and
so to speak, to have to tell you like, okay, wow,
this is something that I've that I did, This is
something that I went through and to get your initial reaction.
I can like see how you felt when you were
(07:32):
in when w when there R were uh when the
roads war reversed, and I remember kind of the same
thing like you. I remember I having to leave my
mouth like out loud that oh, this is what I did,
and this is the situation, this is the predicament, and
you know, this is where we found ourselves and this
is how I feel about it, and just to hear
like if and on a short a short situation I
(07:55):
think was different from your situation and my situation is
you had to you told me yours like in m
face to face, and then the first time that you
learned about my situation was over the phone. R.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So it was really quick in the sense that like
I was able to hear the pain like in.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Your voice the death of silence.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, like the death of silence and shock and disappointment,
and I think that's worse. I think like when you're
a kid, it's kind of like y, you don't mind
your parents being mad at you and being upset with you,
but it feels different when they're disappointed. And I feel
like that's how it felt with you, like as my
partner in life, I felt like that you were disappointed
because I had y I had your example as the
(08:37):
blueprint in which how to like navigate you know, this
relationship that we have, and so that immediately stung, like
hearing the actual disappointment in your voice of like, dang,
is this real life?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So wait wait, so you just kind of jumped to
the ending.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
If I'm not jumping to the ending, I'm jumping to
the mo the day this, I'm jumping to the beginning
on when I actually told you about it.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Okay, great, so, but it's interesting. I wanna know, cause
I would highlight if I shared it or not. But
unfortunately there were times in the midst of it, in
the thick uh the funk, I just caught up again,
Like you pointed out, you know it's not right, but
maybe it's too early to tell or the sinful nature
(09:21):
of us.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
It's just curious of how far can I take it?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
And so I can remember, uh thoughts similar to that
of where I knew there was a cut off point.
You know, I was matter of fact of that, but
still I flirted with which is the dangerous part.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I was humbled like a like a mofo of knowing
how much I was curious and which is the wondrous
part of knowing how far could I take it? Did
you also have uh thoughts and like, you know, self
talk of like how far could I.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Play with this? Because I know my s I have
self control.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, we of course think we believe that we we can.
We can you know, dance around danger, we can play
with fire like a juggle or yeah, yeah, did you
did you have thoughts of, uh, see how far this
can go?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
No? I didn't have that thought because it was it
wasn't like I've done this before and let me like
let me have something to compare it to, like, oh
I did this before and I got this far, so
let me see how far I can go. I didn't
have like a.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Meter of like I didn't need it, but yeah that's fair.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I didn't have a meter in my mindset when
I'm actually like going through these different actions, I didn't
have like a oh, let me see how far I
can go with this particular thing. It was more so
of like being in the moment in real time as
things were happening.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I think the difference is you were receiving whereas I
was giving, which is the the the ying and yang
nature of men and women. So the thrill and the
excitement and the the really uh not scare of but
uh the thrill and the uh what's what's people the skydiver,
(11:11):
people who love the.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Adrenaline, the drilling. Okay, okay rephrasing.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
So I think that's interesting because that probably captures the
dynamic between men and women because pro potentially you were
the receiver.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Whereas in my situation, I was the giver.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
And so men and women I might have had a
thrill and the excitement of the the situation, the thrill,
the fun, the chase, uh, the d adrenaline rush that
I was were giving.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, you know as a as it's like the dynamic
of the uh ying and yang.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
So that's that's interesting that you share that you didn't
have those thoughts because potentially you were receiving it, whereas
I was.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Also, I mean, I was receiving it, but at the
same time, uh not to like not to extract myself
from the situation, like I was heavily apart. I was
a heavy participant, right right, right, So it wasn't just
like oh, our receiving receiving receiving, like no, I was
definitely like dishing out something as well. And so I
(12:13):
n I recognize now like my involvement in it, but
I didn't have a This is a thing that is
so tricky and I and I want people to get
this because, like I said, it's a slow burn. So
the actual moment in of itself that actually was the
pinpointed wrongfulness is very short, but the stuff leading up
(12:37):
to that was long. Mm you know, so like in
the moment when the moment comes, the moment is short,
I agree, But the actual the actual sin, the actual ramifications,
the actual weight of what you're doing is prior. So
in the moment, it seemed very small. It seemed very
(13:04):
it seemed very uh shriv shrivelous. I don't know if
that's a word or not, but it seemed like it
It wasn't like.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
A like a big was it worth it?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah it it wasn't worth it in the end, but
I would say like, uh, definite yeah, and it totally
wasn't worth it. In nine sight twenty twenty, it's like,
oh wow, I definitely could have gone without doing that. Yeah,
like you know, live the rest of my life. But
but but that's what that's what's so interesting about the situation.
And I remember talking to you about it and feeling
so bad about it, and I think going through that
(13:35):
particular predicament cause I'm like, you know, after it's over,
after I'm like having to deal with my real life now,
I have to go back to home, h back home
to you do life with you my actual life partner,
thinking about, Okay, how do we pick up the pieces?
How do we go from like this new information and
still try to have a you know, a significant life together,
(13:56):
a significant marriage that is still thriving. M And it
did take some time. I think for me, I was
just so shocked because it was so out of character
for me to like do something like this. And I
want people to understand too that that's a big thing.
Is like remembering when you actually sin in certain areas
of your life that that is not who you are,
(14:19):
that is not your character. Yeah, it's what you did,
and it's a mistake that you made, but it doesn't
define you. And I think for a little while, for me,
it took me a little while to get out of
that befunk because I kept thinking, like this defines me,
This is like, huh, how people are always gonna see
me now, and people who are affiliating in these different
(14:40):
circles are gonna like see me in this light and
in this way. And it took me a while to
kind of like pull myself out of that hole of
realizing that I am not my mistake. Yeah, I am
not my mistake you. Yeah, I can be separated from it.
And that took me a little while. And I think
I also, you know, I to this, I would say
(15:00):
that we did go through these things. I had to
say like nothing whatever happened again in our marriage, and
I'm not afraid of that.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
We're prepared.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'm more prepared for it. But I do feel like
God spoke to us, and I feel like through that
particular particular situation, one of the biggest things that I
really learned about myself through that particular predicament and that
season of our lives is that I understand sin. If
(15:29):
there was anything to get out of that situation, is
like having a new, uh fresh perspective on how sin
works mm and H and how the enemy works.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
What what would you say?
Speaker 3 (15:40):
You can simply say where was your epiphany?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I think the epiphany is just understanding when you can
put the put it together in your mind if you
actually go back and do the work and try to like, Okay,
this thing that I did led to this thing in
this moment, led to this moment that got me at
this moment to this, you know. So it's a dominant
effect of being able to realize how clever and how
deceitful the enemy is and how you can be easily
(16:08):
susceptible to it, uh, when you're not close to God,
right and so so yeah, So I think another thing.
When people think of sin, they think of like this big,
like spiritual word, and it's hard for people to really
like understand it and make it palpable for them in
their own lives. But sin essentially is when you miss
the mark and the mark could be super small, but
(16:31):
when you miss the mark on being in your God's
state that God designed you to be, which is in
the likeness, in the likeliness of himself. So we were
made to be like God, in God's image. And when
you sin, essentially you fall short of being in the
likeness of God, and you make mistakes and you do
(16:55):
these different things that separate you. Essentially, the more you sin,
the more that you're separated. For God, and the more
susceptible you are to.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
The enemy's attacks, you create that.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, And I think what's interesting is I didn't in
the season. I didn't really realize like that I was
separated from God, saying I would agree, you know, like
you think you're kind of just doing life, but you
don't take uh, you don't make an intentional inventory of
your spiritual connection to God. It's it's not intentional. You
(17:26):
don't like go into yourself, not all the time, but
in these seasons, I remember now I didn't go and
be like am I close to God?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Or check the box no, Like I didn't do that.
But now that I look back, it's like, oh, it's
so clear, like oh yeah, I definitely yeah, Like I
definitely remember now I was not close to God. And
because I was not close to God, I was more
susceptible to what the world had to offer essentially, i e.
What the enemy had to offer, which is these different
traps and fantasies and fallacies of what could be that
(18:00):
are that are enticing and so and so. Yeah, So
I found myself in a particament that really that's essentially
what happens. Like you are more susceptible to sin when
you're separate from God, and in that season, I was
far from God and and I didn't realize it. And
that's kind of like what led me to that specific situation.
(18:22):
But getting out of it, I think was probably the
most interesting part, because I would say I was down
and out for a couple of months.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yep, yeah, rehashing.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It, reliving it. And there's so many different variables around
my situation that's different from John's that we don't have
to go into detail about. But I just felt like,
because I have a little bit more visibility than you,
I guess, like in what I do and like who
I am, I just felt like the weight a little
bit stronger, whereas with your situation it was really just
(18:55):
me and you.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Well, one huge variable that's different is I had to
work from day to day the ninety five whereas you didn't.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, so I had to actually you had to soak
to live with it and and day I think about it, yeah,
and be reminded of it so many different I had
a distraction.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, Yeah, so that that one difference.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, you had to continue on, like Okay, I gotta
get up at eight o'clock, continue my life, you know,
continue to provide for the family. Yeah, so that's that's
the difference between ours is I had to do a
lot of sitting with mine, and there's so many things
that you think about, you know, as you're going through
this predicament, you're like revisiting so many different things you
said and what you would have done differently. And it
(19:42):
was just such a painful experience for me. It was
just so painful for me to actually like come to
the realization that like, dang, niche, this is this is
who you, this is what you're doing, Like this is
what we're doing, this is what happened, Like you really
did this. Yeah, And I think what I got out
(20:03):
of that situation when it really started to click for me,
is realizing that we're all gonna go through things, right,
We're all gonna have something that we're trying to overcome.
But I think the key thing that I took away
from it was that, yeah, Okay, pain is inevitable, but
suffering is optional. And I had to actually pull myself
(20:25):
out of the suffering of the pain that I had
caused myself and our marriage.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
What would you how would you differentiate the.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Two I mean and pain is pain, Like, of course,
we're gonna have these moments that we miss the mark.
We're all gonna say, we're all gonna fall short of
the glory of God, We're all gonna make mistakes. But
taking that pain and activating an emotion that is unhealthy
to the point of where it affects your daily living suffering,
(20:54):
You don't have to do that.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Okay, So you don't have to do that.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
So would you agree that one is short term one
is long term?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah, in a way, I would say that, Yeah,
I would say that. You know, the onset of you
realizing something you've done wrong is in the initial feelings
that you feel physically, emotionally, spiritually, i energetically, magnetically, all
of that. That's the initial pain. The onset of you
learning about it, okay, but you taking that pain and
internalizing it to where it's affecting the way that you
(21:24):
live life. Yeah, on the daily basis, that is suffering,
and that's optional.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So I think what's interesting is I didn't suffer.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
So when you didn't suffer, well, we're gonna talk about
it some more. You didn't suffer necessarily, but you were
you did receive chastisement from God, Yeah, which I did
not receive that in particular for my particular situation. But
I do think it's important to talk about chastisement cause
that's another like really spiritual word that we're gonna try
to define an unpact for you guys. But you went
(21:59):
through that kind of chastisement from God. So are you
able to kind of recollect I guess in a sense
of like what you would consider chastisement to be and
mean and and and how you.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Can I think the roles were kind of reversed in
the kind of crisscross. But I think that in L.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Layman's terms, was the suffering because the chastisement was before
I had enough.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Strength to tell you, h to reveal it to you.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
And what that was was a constant, a renewing daily
reminder of the shortcoming. And it was uh perpetuating, it
was consistent. It was like a like a dark.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Cloud, a rainy cloud hanging over my head every day. Okay, Uh.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
And it because I was I took it so serious
and like you, I total surprise, out of character.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
What how when why did I do this? Et cetera.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Uh, that exacerbated it, so it probably amplified it even more,
yeah than what the original lesson was supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Uh that's good because I took it to heart so
like in intensely uh. And so yeah, that chessisement was U.
I it felt like a direct I can remember from
uh in the military. Uh, one of my first like
job related mistakes. I had to go see the colonel
and it was a big ordeal. I think it happened
(23:26):
at the end of the week. And then at the
beginning of the week. Uh, my leaders and superiors wanted
to make me an example. So on Monday, the the
next level uh in terms of rank, was above me.
He began to he he gave me a a shouting
Uh you did this, You're wrong, you.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Suck, blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
So essentially that was like on a Monday, and then
on Tuesday it was a level above him, went to
go see him. Uh, went to his office again another
uh chess tisement if you will, uh, but another uh,
you know, verbal beratment and you know, again you suck.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
This is what you did. You're gonna be made the example,
et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Okay, so that was like a Tuesday, and then a
Wednesday it was a level above him.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
So it was like a constant onslaught. And I think
what was more painful was that I knew the levels
would increase because I knew better back to my situation,
so I knew better in those moments, I could recognize this.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Not right, you know, I didn't take the exit, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
But I still knew the ramorifications would be intensified as
time went on. And so that was the the the
degree of pain, like I can literally see.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
It, Yeah, like as time goes on.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yes, it's like it's like you're getting the whooping from
your parent and they begin at like one level a belt,
and then you go to I don't know, it's a
wooden spoon.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
What in spoon?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Uh? Yeah, but you know, well the.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Degree of punishment intensified. Yeah, and I can see that layout.
I seen level one, I seen level two, three, four,
and I knew I couldn't escape it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
So in a layman's terms, when I'm getting too spiritual,
but that's part of the chastisement.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yes, I essentially, I a would say chastisement is like
in the same Wheelhouse and the same family as suffering.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yes, absolutely, we're more so punishment absolutely punishment yeah, like.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah from God, punishment from God.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I knew it was coming and so I couldn't prepare
for it until I was in it.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, and then I got through it.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
And I think that's you know, to speak to that,
that's a real thing, even though I feel like it
still comes from a place of love from God. But
a lot of people don't like to talk about that
part where it's like, dang, I feel like I'm being
punished by God.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yes, and I would say, I would say the final punishment,
if you will, discipline from the military. Example made a
mistake of my job was when I got to the
highest ranking person and on the base, the highest ranking
person on the base, when I walked into his office,
in all of the the structure and format and military
(26:10):
customers and courtesies, it was, it was it was like
a refreshing chesstisement and admonishment from a grandfather. Okay, and
so yes, I went through the process level one, level two,
level three. I went from you know this rank and
then the rank above him, then the rank above him,
(26:31):
and then when I got two d Man which is sistently.
It was was God the Father. Uh, it was hey,
you know you did wrong. It wasn't a uh it
was ah uh an admonishment and a showering of love.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
And he did that.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
That's what Jesus did uh to the woman caught in
the act of adultry. So she went through the total
embarrassment where she was caught in an actor of of adultery.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
She was dragged literally out of the house uh in
through the streets. You could think about a village or
neighborhood uhnked So that in and itself is embarrassing. It
brought out into the opening of a city and everyone,
the entire neighborhood. People you were raised with your peers,
everybody can see her out exposed and they know what
you just did. Yeah, the huge mistake you just did.
(27:16):
And then uh, here comes the big man, Here comes Jesus.
Uh so, here comes all all of my songs above me, uh,
you know, painting him in the in this image and
light like I'm gonna get the worst or the worst,
I'm the scum of the earth, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
And so like the woman called it an actor of
uh adultery. Uh. When Jesus spoke to her. Uh, he
showed her an immense amount of grace.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And it was that grace and forgiveness that empowered her
to sin no more.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah. And I think I can totally relate to that too,
because that's not to say that there's any like if
you were, I guess, to find any good thing about
sin and learning how to repent from it, you are
revealed to the amount, the insurmountable amount of God's grace,
m in God's goodness that you have access to in
(28:06):
the midst of you making that mistake. And I think
that was prevalent to me and in an imperative to
my actual healing, was being able to tap into recognizing
God's grace and him extend him extending grace my lowest moment,
when I would continue to cry about the situation, when
I would continue to feel angry or upset or even
disappointed in myself about the situation, I always was able
(28:30):
to tap into the fact that I could still feel,
beyond the shot off of a doubt, an overwhelming sense
of God's grace. Yes, And and how would you describe
grace to people who don't really understand that? And of itself.
When when we say grace, like, what do you what
do you think is an easy way to explain.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Grace is when you do not get what you do deserve. Mm.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
And so when the writing is on the wall and
is v super clear and apparent that you deserve this
this punishment, yeah, this discipline and then your face with it,
and you don't get it the amount of glee and
jubilee and rejuvenation and excitement to to to repent which
(29:13):
has turned a hundred eight degrees the other way to
a complete uh turnaround that propels you to go and
send no more. And so that really paints the picture
of God's uh true love for us that you know,
when someone can showcase at your lowest moment, they don't
(29:33):
embarrass you even more, they don't kick you when you're down. Yeah,
they literally pick you up in the face of everyone
else doing just that. That's how you know you have
the power to extend that to someone else.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, I think even to your story too, cause I
want to touch on that a little bit because that
was one of the insights that I got from God
and my predicament that you're talking about the woman who
was caught an adultery. In that same story, I think
Jesus he he tells anybody to uh cast the first stone? Yes,
And that was just so revolutionary for me and my
(30:05):
healing because I kept thinking like shame. I was just
being overcome by shame that I had done this thing,
and I kept thinking like, I can't show up to
these places anymore, I can't be in these rooms because
it's just going to be a parent that I have
done this thing. And then God spoke to me that
verson and the idea of that niezshe you think you're
the only person to have ever done this thing, to
(30:28):
have ever missed the mark. And it just really gave
me a sense of vitality to think that I can
show up now, I can show up as my real
true self, knowing that I am flawed and so is
everybody else, like I am not alone in this, and
the insight to think like I'm just going any room
(30:49):
if you feel a certain type of way, if you
feel shame about anything, just ask the audience to raise
their hand if they've ever felt like they've done something
that they're not proud of. Yeah, and why how many
hands go up?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And if nobody raises their hand.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
And they're yet, they haven't done it yet. But so yeah,
so so what that story is just so beautiful and
and it real really illustrates the power of God's grace
and the fact that we're one body essentially, that we've
all fallen short and we've all done something. And so
with my particular situation, that was really a driving force
(31:24):
for me, shame m and being ashamed of like that
I had found myself in this position of like being
an emotion emotionally invested into an idea of something and
I just was like, oh my god, I I and
with my situation, it's just like a little bit more visibility.
Like I said, so I kept thinking, like, they are
key players in this situation that I feel like are
(31:47):
out to get me. They're my enemies. Yeah, these people
now like a we're against each other. And I think
one of the biggest thing, that biggest things that I
learned was that I don't have any enemies.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I have teachers.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
M mm, You're not an enemy. You're a teacher. And
if I start to kind of like revisit how I
view this situation and how I view the people that
were impacted by this situation, I see now like, oh, yeah, okay,
I'm making you be this big character in my story
(32:22):
when I can really change my perspective on how I
view you and not see you as somebody that I dislike,
or somebody that I hate, or somebody that I'm upset
with or that I have a vengeance towards, but I
see you as somebody who taught me as a teacher. Yeah,
you taught me what I learned how to not do.
You taught me how I came across as a person
(32:42):
as a believer. Uh. Ultimately, you're a teacher of so
many different areas, And so now I'm freed from any
kind of negative attachment to people who are associated with
my situation because essentially I view them no longer as
my enemies, but more so as my teachers and that
particular situation, and so that really really helps me kind
(33:03):
of like in my healing process and get through it.
And then you, of course, you know, you were a
big part of like also aside from God, like being
able to extend grace from me in the situation, even
though it did take you a little bit of time obviously,
and yeah, understandably you were able to extend grace to
me as a husband and as a partner, which I
(33:26):
really do appreciate about that, and I think that is
an important part for us to kind of unpack, is
realizing the bigger picture, because for both of us, and
I will say the same for you, I feel like
our situations and our predicaments were literally just that they
were mistakes that we made, but they didn't. They weren't
like character statements of who we are.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
I strongly believe when of course I live by Uh
that they repeated.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Mistake is a decision.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
So we did not repeat the situations. Uh, but there are, unfortunately,
if the shoot fits weird yeah, uh, people who repeat
at certain mistakes. And so let this be a clear
drink of water for you. Uh.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
That is a decision, yep.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
And you need to come up out of that uh
by becoming more aware. If you do not go with there,
you will go without take some time, quiet time away
from any and every body and every distraction.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Uh, so you can really take the truest assessment of yourself. Uh.
Is this me? Is this the lifestyle I want? Is
this you know? The future I want? Is this the
predicament that I want? Uh?
Speaker 3 (34:43):
And more times than not, you're gonna come to the
conclusion that it is uh not you, and so you
you could the chart the path and charge your course
to uh changing Yeah, uh changing yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I love that well, m God is the majority one
of what God is the majority?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, another quote we lived by.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
I do think it's a great time to for me
to touch on what made us be able to be
here today. And that is uh really r showcasing and
realizing uh, the the the trueness and the rawness and
the realness.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Of uh love what it really is.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
And uh uh love doesn't hurt, even though we both
are highlighting that we hurt each other.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Uh. True love doesn't hurt. Uh. Trauma does.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
And so what we were able to do was eradicate
the trauma as fast as possible. Uh So when you
showed me forgiveness and essentially grace. But when you showed
me forgiveness as fast as you did, you know it
was years later, but times later when unfortunately but fortunately
uh the roles were reversed. I was literally battl not battling,
(35:56):
but I literally had thoughts in my mind of Okay,
how f.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Fast can I extend that forgiveness? Because I know what
it first felt like.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Uh, to to wrong somebody and to know that there's
no right that you could do to unwrong what you
did to somebody.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
And so you first showed that example, and then immediately
when you did it, I knew.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
That was God's love.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Because God's love, true love doesn't hurt uh when it
is uh conditional. Uh, that's where you can invoke uh
trauma and pain.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Uh. So love doesn't hurt, trauma does.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
And so UH what m most people misinterpret and they're
not able to differentiate the two, is that they conflate
the two because I experienced this trauma while I was
in relationship with you, and I think I love you
so love much mean trauma and pain. Uh, this is
(36:56):
all selfconscious, Yeah, in middleseconds of time. And so what
we were able to do was instinctively know without articulatingness,
which is fascinating part of uh our spirituality. Uh, extend
forgiveness immediately, because forgiveness is totally different from reconciliation. We
(37:17):
knew that reconciliation and reconciling a relationship yeah, from which you.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
You have just wrong.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, that takes work.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
That takes work and time and time. Yeah, uh, and
an effort.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
So will you forgive what your heart and then you
reconcile with your hands?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Mm? So I knew. I think I mentioned it on
the last episode, but I knew that I was actually
excited to do the work.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
I don't know if that was the man part of me,
the grunt, Yeah, you know, work with my hands, you know,
et cetera. But uh, I knew that that would uh complete,
It would like wrap up the present, if you will,
That would put the bow on top. Yeah, so you
forgive what your heart and then you reconcile with your hands.
Because I knew that the work that's required and needed
(38:05):
is for me to rebuild that that bridge of trust
to let you know that I did one thing I
will never do it again. I've learned from it. And
so that the forgiveness that you extended to me, I
was put on the hot seat.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Like how could I not reciprocated?
Speaker 3 (38:26):
But like keep you in a holding parading and hold
this over your head when you immediately showcased.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
It to me, What a hypocrite?
Speaker 3 (38:36):
And then I know what it feels like to experienced.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yes, So yeah, I was extremely.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
And when it was it was almost like all right,
this is my time to shine like in your in
your lowest moment. Let me reciprocate this freeing and amazing
feeling that you made me feel some time ago.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
I'm gonna extend.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
That to you, and I do, sin I do, and
now that if I think back about it, like I
do remember sensing that from you, not that we ever
spoke about it, that we actually said it, but I
do remember sensing from you that the sting of what
I had done had gone away, but the work that
still needed to be you know, worked out, still was there.
(39:24):
But I do remember feeling that, like uh, the actual
despair from you that had dissipated a little bit as
time went on very quickly. Yeah, and so yeah, I
definitely can remember that now if I recall, like I
remember obviously the initial onset, the shock, the like s,
(39:44):
you know, the those variables that come off learning about
something about being betrayed for the very first time. Yeah, yeah,
he was wrong, like that.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Is the uh. And then you begin to undertake, much.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Like me, yea uh, the the work of uh reconciling, reconciliation,
so uh that really will then expose you to who
you truly are relationally and so when it's your turn,
and it's part of the process, when it's your turn
to reconcile things, then you put on a peru, on
(40:18):
a pedestal, if you will, of let's see who you
really are. Because there's a lot of people who could
talk their way into a job, to a job interview
and then eventually get the job.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
And then when it's time to do the job, then
you would left out naked and expose.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
And so what reconciliation was you don't have.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
The experience cause you don't have the experience, you don't
have the skill set, you don't have the from talking right,
and which is a lot of people can do this part.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
They can forgive.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
There is a really good resource we use the apology
love language, which we can talk you know, talk to
your own in the future.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
But you can do that part. Forgiveness is extremely important.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
But it and it is uh the first step yeah uh,
but the biggest in the the real chunk and meat
of a relationship as long as we have uh thrive,
it's uh reconciling things. Knowing that I have again severed
this tie, I have blown up this bridge of trust. Yeah,
and I must literally do the work of rebuilding a
(41:19):
bridge of trust yep and so much like again, you
know people do it in relationships too.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
People can talk to talk uh without really having their
skills set Uh that will uh uh support them and
lift them up that they can lean on in terms
of our relational skills, like it, marriage takes work, it
takes emotional intelligence, it takes intellectual intelligence. Yeah, and it
knows uh when when it be a follower, when to
(41:46):
be a leader. It it's not just what social media
has glamorized it to be.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
And so yeah, that that reconciliation. Uh. We we've got.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Some warm wounds, but we've got the experience to know, Yeah,
when I do a wrong fortunately on unfortunate, I know
how to reconcile things so we can be thriving and you.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Know, we can get back to our business.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yes, oh God, I love you. This is a good episode.
We're just gonna continue to like let U use us
through our stories. And I think that was one of
the other biggest things was like I was saying, you
know in a part one, like we're Rome, like we
(42:27):
were role models, you know, and we've we've been seen
in this light of like a lot of people really
look to us. And I love this, and I love
I love this because we are still considered road models
amidst our mistakes, and so I think we persevered. And
I think what even helps us even more is being
able to, like, you know, to be able to resonate
(42:47):
with other people who have gone through this obviously and
way more catastrophic area, you know, levels to what we've done,
but we're able to at least, you know, be able
to speak from a point of view to where at
a we can say like, I know how that feels.
I know how it feels to be portrayed, I know
how it feels to have to rebuild trusts, I know
how it feels to have like this awkward presence in
(43:08):
the home when you know you're the one that have
done that, has done something wrong. Like now we're able
to say and be examples of like knowing how it feels,
but also like how to overcome that and that be
overcome by it.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yes, what we both did put I would say potentially
not intentional is uh. We began to in those wonderful,
blissful times like in our marriage early on. Uh that
w was like giving us uh the morio coins if
(43:41):
you will, of us staying power. That's I think what
was able to sustain us in the the months ahead,
years ahead where it's gonna be rocky.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
So we develop and uh we accumulated a a a
big you know, kind of large bank, if you will.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
We make daily deposits, weekly, yearly deposits of stand power.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
And so when we were faced with uh, the ultimate
surprise and gut checked and slapping and face, uh that
staying power is kind of like a boxer with them
being able to take a punch to the chin, and
we were able to take it and then keep moving forward. Yeah, uh,
because we we both realized that, uh, what this would
(44:25):
require is potentially us changing ourselves.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
See, most people would like to uh.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Change their partners in the marriage or relationship without changing themselves.
So when we were faced in the mirror like you
messed up, you were.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
The discom of the earth, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Uh, we still looked ourselves individually in the mirror and said,
I'm gonna do better. Yeah, And so we did not
give up on the union. Yeah that we both agreed to.
And so we decided that it's it's greater to change
ourselves than just simply change our partner. So many people
nowadays they would just rather take the option or changing
(45:03):
a partner, uh, instead of the work and the pain
it really takes.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
But uh, the work that it takes to a change.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yourself, right, And I think I would add if I
were to add anything to that. I think it just
comes back to the idea that it's not all peatures
and cream, that you have to learn how to agree. Okay, alright, alright,
you had to take it there, alright. I wanted to
just add to that is that, Uh. The other thing
(45:29):
is like, it's not always this amazing, blissful happily ever
after a situation. You also when you're in the middle
of the season of a wrongdoing, you have to get
good at learning how to suffer well.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Ooh.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
I think people don't realize that you can get in
the season. You just have to be good at suffering
well in the season. Yes, And I think one of
the things that we did was we were able to
take accountability and responsibility for what we both did. And
you have to know how to suffer well. Yeah, in
(46:03):
that part particular season, you're gonna suffer, but you gotta
know how to do it. Well, yeah, and I think
being accountable and responsible for your own actions will help
you to eradicate the dawntenness of the s that suffering has.
And so yeah, the disruptiveness that it could have on
(46:25):
your life, and so the devastation didn't destroy it. Yeah,
we learned how quickly to suffer well. Yeah, and a
and a down season of our marriage. Yeah and and
so yeah. So I would just you know, if I
were to give any my two cents, it would be
some of the stuff that we talked about in this episode.
And learning how to suffer well in a season where
(46:47):
you've you know, you've you've missed the mark essentially, and
how to overcome that, and you know, being able to
tap into God's grace and knowing that you have access
to it no matter what. Yeah, He's sovereign, it's crazy omnire.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
And so that definitely helped us overcome some of our
biggest struggles.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Ya. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah. So if I were to give, like, you know,
last words, I would say, if somebody's going through something
like I did, I would submit to them to be
able to be bold in their recovery. I think that's
what saved me. Is like Okay, I did this thing,
you did this thing. But when it comes to us
being able to bounce back and being bold and wanting
(47:33):
to change and wanting to turn away from that behavior,
wanting to turn away from those type of actions and
that kind of mindset, I think that's an approach that
people need to have because they get comfortable in their shame.
They get comfortable in their guilt. It's almost like as
if they sit back and lean into it. When I
would say r yeah, when I would say that I
you should do the the the contrary to that, and
(47:55):
be bold in your recovery. Be be like gung ho
about wanting to become better in that situation getting out.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
Because what it takes for a rocket to leave the
grasp of the Earth's atmosphere, it takes a lot of power.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
And then once you break through that little slither.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Almost like passing through the eye of a needle, then
it doesn't take much effort because there's there's space in
that you don't need much firepower.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, but that initial, that initial launch into the recovery
process of like, like you said, the reconciliation, be bold
and your approach to becoming better. Be bold in your
approach to wanting to change the way you think, the
way that you approach different situations, how you interact with
people in creating new boundaries. Be bold in your recovery
(48:46):
is what I would say. Is like my final stamp,
as we, you know, get through this conversation. That's not
my favorite episode, but who knows, it might. I mean,
I'm sure it'll bless somebody. It's blessed us. Yeah, it's
not fun, but it's worth.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
It's worth, So I love you
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Utillambo Alright, until next time, Peace,
Here we go, y'all.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Part two.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
What are your vibes?
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Like?
Speaker 1 (00:09):
What are you feeling anything? And going into this?
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Life is good? Man, life is good. It's great. Got
two beautiful girls, I got the mama.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
What does I have to do with you?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Asks me about life?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Okay? Now, actually, how are you feeling going into this episode?
But that's fine?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Oh you didn't finish the talk. I'm good excited?
Speaker 1 (00:28):
Yeah, I mean too, it's uh fall vibes. I put
on a little face for you today. I know you
like your highlight like, yeah, a little. Sometimes I overdo
it though.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Mmm, it's strong. It's like it's like a runway on
the airport. But I like it though.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Okay, thank you. Part two of our Conversation of betrayal
and backstabbing.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
You know, I'm just kidding. Mm mmmm.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
This is this is I'm gonna be honest. So I'm
a little bit vulnerable going into this conversation cause now
I'm on my side of the story. As Wait, you
weren't vulnerable? Did you feel vulnerable talking about your stuff?
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah, cause I had to dig it up and like
intentionally think about it.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah. So are we s We've we sound uh uh
Naisily and congestion. I feel it.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
So it's been a week. Our newborn, well she's not
newborn anymore, but our ten month old was in the
hospital for three days. I was with her. She has
like two different viruses. So we're getting over this cold.
But where we are here, we are still here, being consistent,
nonetheless having this, having this important conversation. So if we
sound Daisily, that's what's happening right now, is she actually
(01:41):
got us sick?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
And Grandma too, Yeah, and my mom. So focus on
the message.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
Please focus on the message, not the nails on this
So and the and the sniffling. We're gonna work through it.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Yeah, we don't get through it together.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Okay, So let's let's get into it. Okay. So for
the first episode, we kind of talked about your transgressions.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
That's such a spiritual word.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
Okay, talk to me.
Speaker 3 (02:10):
Thousands of people, it's gonna be okay, but I want
you to talk to me like the one in the world.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
I'm the only one in the room you are. Thank you.
So transgressions, why did I use that word? What is
that even?
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Like?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
How would you define.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
That you have crossed the line your transgressions.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Okay, well, we're finna talk about some.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Word transgressions across the lines.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Across the line. So for your story, you know, it
was really interesting to hear your perspective. We didn't go
into too much detail about the actual act itself, but
I think the message was clear in the sense of,
like you learning how to actually count the costs, you know,
me talking about extending grace and forgiveness and forgiveness, Yeah,
(02:56):
immediately through that specific thing, which is not an easy
thing to do. And we're not saying that, hey, this
is the way, the life, the truth, but it did
work for us, and it did pay off in our marriage,
and we would, you know, encourage you all to get
to a point in your relationships where forgiveness actually can
come easy, because it can so. But yeah, so let's
(03:18):
talk about my situation in my story, because I'm not
innocent in this predicament of Okay, just relax, I'm not innocent.
My situation is a little bit different in the sense
that I didn't make an actual physical betrayal sin mine
(03:41):
was more so mental. Okay, mine was more so mental
and emotional. So I think for my particular situation, it
was kind of like a slow burn. It was like
you kind of got to see signs. I think that's
so interesting too, when we think about when we think
about when we're in a specific situation that we know
(04:05):
is not all the way right. I'll say it that way,
not that it's just like blatantly obvious to you that
something is wrong. Yeah, I think the deceiving part is
that you know that, uh, this is not all the
way right. And I wanna definitely like keep my pulse
on that theme of like when you know something is
not all the way right. And so for me, I
(04:27):
was in a predicament where I was like, Okay, I'm
saying that, okay, this is not all the way right
in this particular situation, and things start to evolve, things
start to grow, time starts to pass, and then you
realize that you have ah that I have. I won't
make it external, I'll make it personal that I have
invested now kind of like an emotional tie to someone
(04:50):
where it's like, oh, this is interesting, like th and
kind of surprising because like I said, it was a
slow burn, yeah, because it kind of just happened over time.
It wasn't something thing that was just like all of
the sudden or abrupt. It was like so casual.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yes, that's what eventually trip both of myself because of
that slow blowing. That's a good term because if it
was abrupt, if it was in my face, I would
have I would have been able to deter it. Yeah,
but you know, like on the last episode, Yeah, that's
a that's a very good way.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, it was more of like a slow burn.
Speaker 3 (05:29):
Yeah, and I think they like slipped through my general
defenses where we agreed on. Of course the gave me
to each other.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Yeah, because it's not like, okay, like how some people
they end up having, you know, they end up cheating
on each other because of a drunken night. And it's
just like it's just a very like your face in
your face, obvious distinct moment where you're like, dang, okay,
I I I I messed up. Yeah, but for us,
I think both of our situations differently. Yours had happened
(05:58):
to be physical, might happen to be emotional, but it
was in the scene surface, Okay, Okay, okay, in this sense,
it was still like slow burn, yeah, okay, to the
point to where like it took time for it to
actually evolve.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yes, it kind of like burrowed this way under defense.
You know where you can the ground is uh soft,
and you can go under defense and brow burrow like
a tunnel if you will, and then you you slip
past the general generic like defenses.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Yeah, so definitely slow burn.
Speaker 1 (06:29):
I think for me in my situation, it was just
so shocking to me in itself because I had learned
from your situation. I had we had your particular situation
to kind of be I guess the blueprint, Yeah, the
(06:50):
blueprint for like you know, how to navigate this situation,
how to do, what not to do. And so I
was just so shocked when I was actually, you know,
finding myself in a similar predicament. And I remember the
day that I actually had to reveal that to you,
still making sense of it myself, still trying to figure out,
you know, how did I even get to this point,
(07:11):
How did I even you know, end up in this
particular situation. And and and to me to h being
in now in the per in the hot seat, and
so to speak, to have to tell you like, okay, wow,
this is something that I've that I did, This is
something that I went through and to get your initial reaction.
I can like see how you felt when you were
(07:32):
in when w when there R were uh when the
roads war reversed, and I remember kind of the same
thing like you. I remember I having to leave my
mouth like out loud that oh, this is what I did,
and this is the situation, this is the predicament, and
you know, this is where we found ourselves and this
is how I feel about it, and just to hear
like if and on a short a short situation I
(07:55):
think was different from your situation and my situation is
you had to you told me yours like in m
face to face, and then the first time that you
learned about my situation was over the phone. R.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So it was really quick in the sense that like
I was able to hear the pain like in.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Your voice the death of silence.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
Yeah, like the death of silence and shock and disappointment,
and I think that's worse. I think like when you're
a kid, it's kind of like y, you don't mind
your parents being mad at you and being upset with you,
but it feels different when they're disappointed. And I feel
like that's how it felt with you, like as my
partner in life, I felt like that you were disappointed
because I had y I had your example as the
(08:37):
blueprint in which how to like navigate you know, this
relationship that we have, and so that immediately stung, like
hearing the actual disappointment in your voice of like, dang,
is this real life?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
So wait wait, so you just kind of jumped to
the ending.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
If I'm not jumping to the ending, I'm jumping to
the mo the day this, I'm jumping to the beginning
on when I actually told you about it.
Speaker 3 (08:59):
Okay, great, so, but it's interesting. I wanna know, cause
I would highlight if I shared it or not. But
unfortunately there were times in the midst of it, in
the thick uh the funk, I just caught up again,
Like you pointed out, you know it's not right, but
maybe it's too early to tell or the sinful nature
(09:21):
of us.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
It's just curious of how far can I take it?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
And so I can remember, uh thoughts similar to that
of where I knew there was a cut off point.
You know, I was matter of fact of that, but
still I flirted with which is the dangerous part.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
I was humbled like a like a mofo of knowing
how much I was curious and which is the wondrous
part of knowing how far could I take it? Did
you also have uh thoughts and like, you know, self
talk of like how far could I.
Speaker 2 (09:58):
Play with this? Because I know my s I have
self control.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
Yeah, we of course think we believe that we we can.
We can you know, dance around danger, we can play
with fire like a juggle or yeah, yeah, did you
did you have thoughts of, uh, see how far this
can go?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
No? I didn't have that thought because it was it
wasn't like I've done this before and let me like
let me have something to compare it to, like, oh
I did this before and I got this far, so
let me see how far I can go. I didn't
have like a.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
Meter of like I didn't need it, but yeah that's fair.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Yeah, I didn't have a meter in my mindset when
I'm actually like going through these different actions, I didn't
have like a oh, let me see how far I
can go with this particular thing. It was more so
of like being in the moment in real time as
things were happening.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
I think the difference is you were receiving whereas I
was giving, which is the the the ying and yang
nature of men and women. So the thrill and the
excitement and the the really uh not scare of but
uh the thrill and the uh what's what's people the skydiver,
(11:11):
people who love the.
Speaker 2 (11:13):
Adrenaline, the drilling. Okay, okay rephrasing.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
So I think that's interesting because that probably captures the
dynamic between men and women because pro potentially you were
the receiver.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Whereas in my situation, I was the giver.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
And so men and women I might have had a
thrill and the excitement of the the situation, the thrill,
the fun, the chase, uh, the d adrenaline rush that
I was were giving.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, you know as a as it's like the dynamic
of the uh ying and yang.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
So that's that's interesting that you share that you didn't
have those thoughts because potentially you were receiving it, whereas
I was.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Also, I mean, I was receiving it, but at the
same time, uh not to like not to extract myself
from the situation, like I was heavily apart. I was
a heavy participant, right right, right, So it wasn't just
like oh, our receiving receiving receiving, like no, I was
definitely like dishing out something as well. And so I
(12:13):
n I recognize now like my involvement in it, but
I didn't have a This is a thing that is
so tricky and I and I want people to get
this because, like I said, it's a slow burn. So
the actual moment in of itself that actually was the
pinpointed wrongfulness is very short, but the stuff leading up
(12:37):
to that was long. Mm you know, so like in
the moment when the moment comes, the moment is short,
I agree, But the actual the actual sin, the actual ramifications,
the actual weight of what you're doing is prior. So
in the moment, it seemed very small. It seemed very
(13:04):
it seemed very uh shriv shrivelous. I don't know if
that's a word or not, but it seemed like it
It wasn't like.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
A like a big was it worth it?
Speaker 1 (13:12):
Yeah it it wasn't worth it in the end, but
I would say like, uh, definite yeah, and it totally
wasn't worth it. In nine sight twenty twenty, it's like,
oh wow, I definitely could have gone without doing that. Yeah,
like you know, live the rest of my life. But
but but that's what that's what's so interesting about the situation.
And I remember talking to you about it and feeling
so bad about it, and I think going through that
(13:35):
particular predicament cause I'm like, you know, after it's over,
after I'm like having to deal with my real life now,
I have to go back to home, h back home
to you do life with you my actual life partner,
thinking about, Okay, how do we pick up the pieces?
How do we go from like this new information and
still try to have a you know, a significant life together,
(13:56):
a significant marriage that is still thriving. M And it
did take some time. I think for me, I was
just so shocked because it was so out of character
for me to like do something like this. And I
want people to understand too that that's a big thing.
Is like remembering when you actually sin in certain areas
of your life that that is not who you are,
(14:19):
that is not your character. Yeah, it's what you did,
and it's a mistake that you made, but it doesn't
define you. And I think for a little while, for me,
it took me a little while to get out of
that befunk because I kept thinking, like this defines me,
This is like, huh, how people are always gonna see
me now, and people who are affiliating in these different
(14:40):
circles are gonna like see me in this light and
in this way. And it took me a while to
kind of like pull myself out of that hole of
realizing that I am not my mistake. Yeah, I am
not my mistake you. Yeah, I can be separated from it.
And that took me a little while. And I think
I also, you know, I to this, I would say
(15:00):
that we did go through these things. I had to
say like nothing whatever happened again in our marriage, and
I'm not afraid of that.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
We're prepared.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I'm more prepared for it. But I do feel like
God spoke to us, and I feel like through that
particular particular situation, one of the biggest things that I
really learned about myself through that particular predicament and that
season of our lives is that I understand sin. If
(15:29):
there was anything to get out of that situation, is
like having a new, uh fresh perspective on how sin
works mm and H and how the enemy works.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
What what would you say?
Speaker 3 (15:40):
You can simply say where was your epiphany?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
I think the epiphany is just understanding when you can
put the put it together in your mind if you
actually go back and do the work and try to like, Okay,
this thing that I did led to this thing in
this moment, led to this moment that got me at
this moment to this, you know. So it's a dominant
effect of being able to realize how clever and how
deceitful the enemy is and how you can be easily
(16:08):
susceptible to it, uh, when you're not close to God,
right and so so yeah, So I think another thing.
When people think of sin, they think of like this big,
like spiritual word, and it's hard for people to really
like understand it and make it palpable for them in
their own lives. But sin essentially is when you miss
the mark and the mark could be super small, but
(16:31):
when you miss the mark on being in your God's
state that God designed you to be, which is in
the likeness, in the likeliness of himself. So we were
made to be like God, in God's image. And when
you sin, essentially you fall short of being in the
likeness of God, and you make mistakes and you do
(16:55):
these different things that separate you. Essentially, the more you sin,
the more that you're separated. For God, and the more
susceptible you are to.
Speaker 2 (17:04):
The enemy's attacks, you create that.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, And I think what's interesting is I didn't in
the season. I didn't really realize like that I was
separated from God, saying I would agree, you know, like
you think you're kind of just doing life, but you
don't take uh, you don't make an intentional inventory of
your spiritual connection to God. It's it's not intentional. You
(17:26):
don't like go into yourself, not all the time, but
in these seasons, I remember now I didn't go and
be like am I close to God?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (17:34):
Or check the box no, Like I didn't do that.
But now that I look back, it's like, oh, it's
so clear, like oh yeah, I definitely yeah, Like I
definitely remember now I was not close to God. And
because I was not close to God, I was more
susceptible to what the world had to offer essentially, i e.
What the enemy had to offer, which is these different
traps and fantasies and fallacies of what could be that
(18:00):
are that are enticing and so and so. Yeah, So
I found myself in a particament that really that's essentially
what happens. Like you are more susceptible to sin when
you're separate from God, and in that season, I was
far from God and and I didn't realize it. And
that's kind of like what led me to that specific situation.
(18:22):
But getting out of it, I think was probably the
most interesting part, because I would say I was down
and out for a couple of months.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yep, yeah, rehashing.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It, reliving it. And there's so many different variables around
my situation that's different from John's that we don't have
to go into detail about. But I just felt like,
because I have a little bit more visibility than you,
I guess, like in what I do and like who
I am, I just felt like the weight a little
bit stronger, whereas with your situation it was really just
(18:55):
me and you.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Well, one huge variable that's different is I had to
work from day to day the ninety five whereas you didn't.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, so I had to actually you had to soak
to live with it and and day I think about it, yeah,
and be reminded of it so many different I had
a distraction.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yeah, Yeah, so that that one difference.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, you had to continue on, like Okay, I gotta
get up at eight o'clock, continue my life, you know,
continue to provide for the family. Yeah, so that's that's
the difference between ours is I had to do a
lot of sitting with mine, and there's so many things
that you think about, you know, as you're going through
this predicament, you're like revisiting so many different things you
said and what you would have done differently. And it
(19:42):
was just such a painful experience for me. It was
just so painful for me to actually like come to
the realization that like, dang, niche, this is this is
who you, this is what you're doing, Like this is
what we're doing, this is what happened, Like you really
did this. Yeah, And I think what I got out
(20:03):
of that situation when it really started to click for me,
is realizing that we're all gonna go through things, right,
We're all gonna have something that we're trying to overcome.
But I think the key thing that I took away
from it was that, yeah, Okay, pain is inevitable, but
suffering is optional. And I had to actually pull myself
(20:25):
out of the suffering of the pain that I had
caused myself and our marriage.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
What would you how would you differentiate the.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Two I mean and pain is pain, Like, of course,
we're gonna have these moments that we miss the mark.
We're all gonna say, we're all gonna fall short of
the glory of God, We're all gonna make mistakes. But
taking that pain and activating an emotion that is unhealthy
to the point of where it affects your daily living suffering,
(20:54):
You don't have to do that.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Okay, So you don't have to do that.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
So would you agree that one is short term one
is long term?
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Yeah, yeah, in a way, I would say that, Yeah,
I would say that. You know, the onset of you
realizing something you've done wrong is in the initial feelings
that you feel physically, emotionally, spiritually, i energetically, magnetically, all
of that. That's the initial pain. The onset of you
learning about it, okay, but you taking that pain and
internalizing it to where it's affecting the way that you
(21:24):
live life. Yeah, on the daily basis, that is suffering,
and that's optional.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
So I think what's interesting is I didn't suffer.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
So when you didn't suffer, well, we're gonna talk about
it some more. You didn't suffer necessarily, but you were
you did receive chastisement from God, Yeah, which I did
not receive that in particular for my particular situation. But
I do think it's important to talk about chastisement cause
that's another like really spiritual word that we're gonna try
to define an unpact for you guys. But you went
(21:59):
through that kind of chastisement from God. So are you
able to kind of recollect I guess in a sense
of like what you would consider chastisement to be and
mean and and and how you.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Can I think the roles were kind of reversed in
the kind of crisscross. But I think that in L.
Speaker 3 (22:17):
Layman's terms, was the suffering because the chastisement was before
I had enough.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Strength to tell you, h to reveal it to you.
Speaker 3 (22:26):
And what that was was a constant, a renewing daily
reminder of the shortcoming. And it was uh perpetuating, it
was consistent. It was like a like a dark.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Cloud, a rainy cloud hanging over my head every day. Okay, Uh.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
And it because I was I took it so serious
and like you, I total surprise, out of character.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
What how when why did I do this? Et cetera.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Uh, that exacerbated it, so it probably amplified it even more,
yeah than what the original lesson was supposed to be.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (23:06):
Uh that's good because I took it to heart so
like in intensely uh. And so yeah, that chessisement was U.
I it felt like a direct I can remember from
uh in the military. Uh, one of my first like
job related mistakes. I had to go see the colonel
and it was a big ordeal. I think it happened
(23:26):
at the end of the week. And then at the
beginning of the week. Uh, my leaders and superiors wanted
to make me an example. So on Monday, the the
next level uh in terms of rank, was above me.
He began to he he gave me a a shouting
Uh you did this, You're wrong, you.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
Suck, blah blah blah blah.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
So essentially that was like on a Monday, and then
on Tuesday it was a level above him, went to
go see him. Uh, went to his office again another
uh chess tisement if you will, uh, but another uh,
you know, verbal beratment and you know, again you suck.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
This is what you did. You're gonna be made the example,
et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Okay, so that was like a Tuesday, and then a
Wednesday it was a level above him.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
Oh wow.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
So it was like a constant onslaught. And I think
what was more painful was that I knew the levels
would increase because I knew better back to my situation,
so I knew better in those moments, I could recognize this.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Not right, you know, I didn't take the exit, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (24:32):
But I still knew the ramorifications would be intensified as
time went on. And so that was the the the
degree of pain, like I can literally see.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
It, Yeah, like as time goes on.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Yes, it's like it's like you're getting the whooping from
your parent and they begin at like one level a belt,
and then you go to I don't know, it's a
wooden spoon.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
What in spoon?
Speaker 2 (24:59):
Uh? Yeah, but you know, well the.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Degree of punishment intensified. Yeah, and I can see that layout.
I seen level one, I seen level two, three, four,
and I knew I couldn't escape it.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
So in a layman's terms, when I'm getting too spiritual,
but that's part of the chastisement.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
Yes, I essentially, I a would say chastisement is like
in the same Wheelhouse and the same family as suffering.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yes, absolutely, we're more so punishment absolutely punishment yeah, like.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah from God, punishment from God.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I knew it was coming and so I couldn't prepare
for it until I was in it.
Speaker 2 (25:37):
Yeah, and then I got through it.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
And I think that's you know, to speak to that,
that's a real thing, even though I feel like it
still comes from a place of love from God. But
a lot of people don't like to talk about that
part where it's like, dang, I feel like I'm being
punished by God.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
Yes, and I would say, I would say the final punishment,
if you will, discipline from the military. Example made a
mistake of my job was when I got to the
highest ranking person and on the base, the highest ranking
person on the base, when I walked into his office,
in all of the the structure and format and military
(26:10):
customers and courtesies, it was, it was it was like
a refreshing chesstisement and admonishment from a grandfather. Okay, and
so yes, I went through the process level one, level two,
level three. I went from you know this rank and
then the rank above him, then the rank above him,
(26:31):
and then when I got two d Man which is sistently.
It was was God the Father. Uh, it was hey,
you know you did wrong. It wasn't a uh it
was ah uh an admonishment and a showering of love.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
And he did that.
Speaker 3 (26:44):
That's what Jesus did uh to the woman caught in
the act of adultry. So she went through the total
embarrassment where she was caught in an actor of of adultery.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
She was dragged literally out of the house uh in
through the streets. You could think about a village or
neighborhood uhnked So that in and itself is embarrassing. It
brought out into the opening of a city and everyone,
the entire neighborhood. People you were raised with your peers,
everybody can see her out exposed and they know what
you just did. Yeah, the huge mistake you just did.
(27:16):
And then uh, here comes the big man, Here comes Jesus.
Uh so, here comes all all of my songs above me, uh,
you know, painting him in the in this image and
light like I'm gonna get the worst or the worst,
I'm the scum of the earth, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
And so like the woman called it an actor of
uh adultery. Uh. When Jesus spoke to her. Uh, he
showed her an immense amount of grace.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
And it was that grace and forgiveness that empowered her
to sin no more.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
Yeah. And I think I can totally relate to that too,
because that's not to say that there's any like if
you were, I guess, to find any good thing about
sin and learning how to repent from it, you are
revealed to the amount, the insurmountable amount of God's grace,
m in God's goodness that you have access to in
(28:06):
the midst of you making that mistake. And I think
that was prevalent to me and in an imperative to
my actual healing, was being able to tap into recognizing
God's grace and him extend him extending grace my lowest moment,
when I would continue to cry about the situation, when
I would continue to feel angry or upset or even
disappointed in myself about the situation, I always was able
(28:30):
to tap into the fact that I could still feel,
beyond the shot off of a doubt, an overwhelming sense
of God's grace. Yes, And and how would you describe
grace to people who don't really understand that? And of itself.
When when we say grace, like, what do you what
do you think is an easy way to explain.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
Grace is when you do not get what you do deserve. Mm.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
And so when the writing is on the wall and
is v super clear and apparent that you deserve this
this punishment, yeah, this discipline and then your face with it,
and you don't get it the amount of glee and
jubilee and rejuvenation and excitement to to to repent which
(29:13):
has turned a hundred eight degrees the other way to
a complete uh turnaround that propels you to go and
send no more. And so that really paints the picture
of God's uh true love for us that you know,
when someone can showcase at your lowest moment, they don't
(29:33):
embarrass you even more, they don't kick you when you're down. Yeah,
they literally pick you up in the face of everyone
else doing just that. That's how you know you have
the power to extend that to someone else.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Yeah, I think even to your story too, cause I
want to touch on that a little bit because that
was one of the insights that I got from God
and my predicament that you're talking about the woman who
was caught an adultery. In that same story, I think
Jesus he he tells anybody to uh cast the first stone? Yes,
And that was just so revolutionary for me and my
(30:05):
healing because I kept thinking like shame. I was just
being overcome by shame that I had done this thing,
and I kept thinking like, I can't show up to
these places anymore, I can't be in these rooms because
it's just going to be a parent that I have
done this thing. And then God spoke to me that
verson and the idea of that niezshe you think you're
the only person to have ever done this thing, to
(30:28):
have ever missed the mark. And it just really gave
me a sense of vitality to think that I can
show up now, I can show up as my real
true self, knowing that I am flawed and so is
everybody else, like I am not alone in this, and
the insight to think like I'm just going any room
(30:49):
if you feel a certain type of way, if you
feel shame about anything, just ask the audience to raise
their hand if they've ever felt like they've done something
that they're not proud of. Yeah, and why how many
hands go up?
Speaker 2 (31:01):
And if nobody raises their hand.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
And they're yet, they haven't done it yet. But so yeah,
so so what that story is just so beautiful and
and it real really illustrates the power of God's grace
and the fact that we're one body essentially, that we've
all fallen short and we've all done something. And so
with my particular situation, that was really a driving force
(31:24):
for me, shame m and being ashamed of like that
I had found myself in this position of like being
an emotion emotionally invested into an idea of something and
I just was like, oh my god, I I and
with my situation, it's just like a little bit more visibility.
Like I said, so I kept thinking, like, they are
key players in this situation that I feel like are
(31:47):
out to get me. They're my enemies. Yeah, these people
now like a we're against each other. And I think
one of the biggest thing, that biggest things that I
learned was that I don't have any enemies.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
I have teachers.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
M mm, You're not an enemy. You're a teacher. And
if I start to kind of like revisit how I
view this situation and how I view the people that
were impacted by this situation, I see now like, oh, yeah, okay,
I'm making you be this big character in my story
(32:22):
when I can really change my perspective on how I
view you and not see you as somebody that I dislike,
or somebody that I hate, or somebody that I'm upset
with or that I have a vengeance towards, but I
see you as somebody who taught me as a teacher. Yeah,
you taught me what I learned how to not do.
You taught me how I came across as a person
(32:42):
as a believer. Uh. Ultimately, you're a teacher of so
many different areas, And so now I'm freed from any
kind of negative attachment to people who are associated with
my situation because essentially I view them no longer as
my enemies, but more so as my teachers and that
particular situation, and so that really really helps me kind
(33:03):
of like in my healing process and get through it.
And then you, of course, you know, you were a
big part of like also aside from God, like being
able to extend grace from me in the situation, even
though it did take you a little bit of time obviously,
and yeah, understandably you were able to extend grace to
me as a husband and as a partner, which I
(33:26):
really do appreciate about that, and I think that is
an important part for us to kind of unpack, is
realizing the bigger picture, because for both of us, and
I will say the same for you, I feel like
our situations and our predicaments were literally just that they
were mistakes that we made, but they didn't. They weren't
like character statements of who we are.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
I strongly believe when of course I live by Uh
that they repeated.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
Mistake is a decision.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
So we did not repeat the situations. Uh, but there are, unfortunately,
if the shoot fits weird yeah, uh, people who repeat
at certain mistakes. And so let this be a clear
drink of water for you. Uh.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
That is a decision, yep.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
And you need to come up out of that uh
by becoming more aware. If you do not go with there,
you will go without take some time, quiet time away
from any and every body and every distraction.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
Uh, so you can really take the truest assessment of yourself. Uh.
Is this me? Is this the lifestyle I want? Is
this you know? The future I want? Is this the
predicament that I want? Uh?
Speaker 3 (34:43):
And more times than not, you're gonna come to the
conclusion that it is uh not you, and so you
you could the chart the path and charge your course
to uh changing Yeah, uh changing yourself.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
I love that well, m God is the majority one
of what God is the majority?
Speaker 2 (35:03):
Yeah, another quote we lived by.
Speaker 3 (35:05):
I do think it's a great time to for me
to touch on what made us be able to be
here today. And that is uh really r showcasing and
realizing uh, the the the trueness and the rawness and
the realness.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Of uh love what it really is.
Speaker 3 (35:23):
And uh uh love doesn't hurt, even though we both
are highlighting that we hurt each other.
Speaker 2 (35:29):
Uh. True love doesn't hurt. Uh. Trauma does.
Speaker 3 (35:32):
And so what we were able to do was eradicate
the trauma as fast as possible. Uh So when you
showed me forgiveness and essentially grace. But when you showed
me forgiveness as fast as you did, you know it
was years later, but times later when unfortunately but fortunately
uh the roles were reversed. I was literally battl not battling,
(35:56):
but I literally had thoughts in my mind of Okay,
how f.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Fast can I extend that forgiveness? Because I know what
it first felt like.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Uh, to to wrong somebody and to know that there's
no right that you could do to unwrong what you
did to somebody.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
And so you first showed that example, and then immediately
when you did it, I knew.
Speaker 2 (36:22):
That was God's love.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
Because God's love, true love doesn't hurt uh when it
is uh conditional. Uh, that's where you can invoke uh
trauma and pain.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Uh. So love doesn't hurt, trauma does.
Speaker 3 (36:35):
And so UH what m most people misinterpret and they're
not able to differentiate the two, is that they conflate
the two because I experienced this trauma while I was
in relationship with you, and I think I love you
so love much mean trauma and pain. Uh, this is
(36:56):
all selfconscious, Yeah, in middleseconds of time. And so what
we were able to do was instinctively know without articulatingness,
which is fascinating part of uh our spirituality. Uh, extend
forgiveness immediately, because forgiveness is totally different from reconciliation. We
(37:17):
knew that reconciliation and reconciling a relationship yeah, from which you.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
You have just wrong.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Yeah, that takes work.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
That takes work and time and time. Yeah, uh, and
an effort.
Speaker 3 (37:29):
So will you forgive what your heart and then you
reconcile with your hands?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
Mm? So I knew. I think I mentioned it on
the last episode, but I knew that I was actually
excited to do the work.
Speaker 3 (37:41):
I don't know if that was the man part of me,
the grunt, Yeah, you know, work with my hands, you know,
et cetera. But uh, I knew that that would uh complete,
It would like wrap up the present, if you will,
That would put the bow on top. Yeah, so you
forgive what your heart and then you reconcile with your hands.
Because I knew that the work that's required and needed
(38:05):
is for me to rebuild that that bridge of trust
to let you know that I did one thing I
will never do it again. I've learned from it. And
so that the forgiveness that you extended to me, I
was put on the hot seat.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Like how could I not reciprocated?
Speaker 3 (38:26):
But like keep you in a holding parading and hold
this over your head when you immediately showcased.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
It to me, What a hypocrite?
Speaker 3 (38:36):
And then I know what it feels like to experienced.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Yes, So yeah, I was extremely.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
And when it was it was almost like all right,
this is my time to shine like in your in
your lowest moment. Let me reciprocate this freeing and amazing
feeling that you made me feel some time ago.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
I'm gonna extend.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
That to you, and I do, sin I do, and
now that if I think back about it, like I
do remember sensing that from you, not that we ever
spoke about it, that we actually said it, but I
do remember sensing from you that the sting of what
I had done had gone away, but the work that
still needed to be you know, worked out, still was there.
(39:24):
But I do remember feeling that, like uh, the actual
despair from you that had dissipated a little bit as
time went on very quickly. Yeah, and so yeah, I
definitely can remember that now if I recall, like I
remember obviously the initial onset, the shock, the like s,
(39:44):
you know, the those variables that come off learning about
something about being betrayed for the very first time. Yeah, yeah,
he was wrong, like that.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Is the uh. And then you begin to undertake, much.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Like me, yea uh, the the work of uh reconciling, reconciliation,
so uh that really will then expose you to who
you truly are relationally and so when it's your turn,
and it's part of the process, when it's your turn
to reconcile things, then you put on a peru, on
(40:18):
a pedestal, if you will, of let's see who you
really are. Because there's a lot of people who could
talk their way into a job, to a job interview
and then eventually get the job.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (40:29):
And then when it's time to do the job, then
you would left out naked and expose.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
And so what reconciliation was you don't have.
Speaker 3 (40:36):
The experience cause you don't have the experience, you don't
have the skill set, you don't have the from talking right,
and which is a lot of people can do this part.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
They can forgive.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
There is a really good resource we use the apology
love language, which we can talk you know, talk to
your own in the future.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
But you can do that part. Forgiveness is extremely important.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
But it and it is uh the first step yeah uh,
but the biggest in the the real chunk and meat
of a relationship as long as we have uh thrive,
it's uh reconciling things. Knowing that I have again severed
this tie, I have blown up this bridge of trust. Yeah,
and I must literally do the work of rebuilding a
(41:19):
bridge of trust yep and so much like again, you
know people do it in relationships too.
Speaker 2 (41:24):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
People can talk to talk uh without really having their
skills set Uh that will uh uh support them and
lift them up that they can lean on in terms
of our relational skills, like it, marriage takes work, it
takes emotional intelligence, it takes intellectual intelligence. Yeah, and it
knows uh when when it be a follower, when to
(41:46):
be a leader. It it's not just what social media
has glamorized it to be.
Speaker 2 (41:51):
And so yeah, that that reconciliation. Uh. We we've got.
Speaker 3 (41:54):
Some warm wounds, but we've got the experience to know, Yeah,
when I do a wrong fortunately on unfortunate, I know
how to reconcile things so we can be thriving and you.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Know, we can get back to our business.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yes, oh God, I love you. This is a good episode.
We're just gonna continue to like let U use us
through our stories. And I think that was one of
the other biggest things was like I was saying, you
know in a part one, like we're Rome, like we
(42:27):
were role models, you know, and we've we've been seen
in this light of like a lot of people really
look to us. And I love this, and I love
I love this because we are still considered road models
amidst our mistakes, and so I think we persevered. And
I think what even helps us even more is being
able to, like, you know, to be able to resonate
(42:47):
with other people who have gone through this obviously and
way more catastrophic area, you know, levels to what we've done,
but we're able to at least, you know, be able
to speak from a point of view to where at
a we can say like, I know how that feels.
I know how it feels to be portrayed, I know
how it feels to have to rebuild trusts, I know
how it feels to have like this awkward presence in
(43:08):
the home when you know you're the one that have
done that, has done something wrong. Like now we're able
to say and be examples of like knowing how it feels,
but also like how to overcome that and that be
overcome by it.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Yes, what we both did put I would say potentially
not intentional is uh. We began to in those wonderful,
blissful times like in our marriage early on. Uh that
w was like giving us uh the morio coins if
(43:41):
you will, of us staying power. That's I think what
was able to sustain us in the the months ahead,
years ahead where it's gonna be rocky.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
So we develop and uh we accumulated a a a
big you know, kind of large bank, if you will.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
We make daily deposits, weekly, yearly deposits of stand power.
Speaker 3 (44:03):
And so when we were faced with uh, the ultimate
surprise and gut checked and slapping and face, uh that
staying power is kind of like a boxer with them
being able to take a punch to the chin, and
we were able to take it and then keep moving forward. Yeah, uh,
because we we both realized that, uh, what this would
(44:25):
require is potentially us changing ourselves.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
See, most people would like to uh.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Change their partners in the marriage or relationship without changing themselves.
So when we were faced in the mirror like you
messed up, you were.
Speaker 2 (44:40):
The discom of the earth, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Uh, we still looked ourselves individually in the mirror and said,
I'm gonna do better. Yeah, And so we did not
give up on the union. Yeah that we both agreed to.
And so we decided that it's it's greater to change
ourselves than just simply change our partner. So many people
nowadays they would just rather take the option or changing
(45:03):
a partner, uh, instead of the work and the pain
it really takes.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
But uh, the work that it takes to a change.
Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yourself, right, And I think I would add if I
were to add anything to that. I think it just
comes back to the idea that it's not all peatures
and cream, that you have to learn how to agree. Okay, alright, alright,
you had to take it there, alright. I wanted to
just add to that is that, Uh. The other thing
(45:29):
is like, it's not always this amazing, blissful happily ever
after a situation. You also when you're in the middle
of the season of a wrongdoing, you have to get
good at learning how to suffer well.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Ooh.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
I think people don't realize that you can get in
the season. You just have to be good at suffering
well in the season. Yes, And I think one of
the things that we did was we were able to
take accountability and responsibility for what we both did. And
you have to know how to suffer well. Yeah, in
(46:03):
that part particular season, you're gonna suffer, but you gotta
know how to do it. Well, yeah, and I think
being accountable and responsible for your own actions will help
you to eradicate the dawntenness of the s that suffering has.
And so yeah, the disruptiveness that it could have on
(46:25):
your life, and so the devastation didn't destroy it. Yeah,
we learned how quickly to suffer well. Yeah, and a
and a down season of our marriage. Yeah and and
so yeah. So I would just you know, if I
were to give any my two cents, it would be
some of the stuff that we talked about in this episode.
And learning how to suffer well in a season where
(46:47):
you've you know, you've you've missed the mark essentially, and
how to overcome that, and you know, being able to
tap into God's grace and knowing that you have access
to it no matter what. Yeah, He's sovereign, it's crazy omnire.
Speaker 2 (47:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
And so that definitely helped us overcome some of our
biggest struggles.
Speaker 2 (47:09):
Ya. Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah. So if I were to give, like, you know,
last words, I would say, if somebody's going through something
like I did, I would submit to them to be
able to be bold in their recovery. I think that's
what saved me. Is like Okay, I did this thing,
you did this thing. But when it comes to us
being able to bounce back and being bold and wanting
(47:33):
to change and wanting to turn away from that behavior,
wanting to turn away from those type of actions and
that kind of mindset, I think that's an approach that
people need to have because they get comfortable in their shame.
They get comfortable in their guilt. It's almost like as
if they sit back and lean into it. When I
would say r yeah, when I would say that I
you should do the the the contrary to that, and
(47:55):
be bold in your recovery. Be be like gung ho
about wanting to become better in that situation getting out.
Speaker 3 (48:05):
Because what it takes for a rocket to leave the
grasp of the Earth's atmosphere, it takes a lot of power.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
And then once you break through that little slither.
Speaker 3 (48:15):
Almost like passing through the eye of a needle, then
it doesn't take much effort because there's there's space in
that you don't need much firepower.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, but that initial, that initial launch into the recovery
process of like, like you said, the reconciliation, be bold
and your approach to becoming better. Be bold in your
approach to wanting to change the way you think, the
way that you approach different situations, how you interact with
people in creating new boundaries. Be bold in your recovery
(48:46):
is what I would say. Is like my final stamp,
as we, you know, get through this conversation. That's not
my favorite episode, but who knows, it might. I mean,
I'm sure it'll bless somebody. It's blessed us. Yeah, it's
not fun, but it's worth.
Speaker 2 (49:00):
It's worth, So I love you
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Utillambo Alright, until next time, Peace,
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