Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to the Wellness and Healthy Lifestyle show on your VOCM. Now,
here's your host, Doctor Mike Wall.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Doctor Mike Wall.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Today we're diving into a conversation that blends love, loss,
and the power of storytelling. My guest is Debbie McGee,
a filmmaker turned author whose new book Cautiously Pessimistic explores
her late husband's journey to illness, their life together, the
meaning of family, community, and communication during some of life's
hardest moments. We'll talk about how the book began, how
(00:38):
grief shaped her writing, and even explored the etiquette of
navigating loss on social media, something that many of us
maybe never thought about until we experience it for ourselves.
There's so much wisdom here about not sweating the small stuff,
leaning on loved ones, and finding perspective in the middle
of chaos. It's a great conversation, so let's get to it.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hi, Debbie, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Fantastic to meet you. I've heard all about you and
are all about your book. But for the folks that
are listening, maybe you could give them a bit of
a background on yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Oh well, I'm seventy two years old. I would begin
with my age because I just can't believe I'm seventy
two years old.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
In my mind, I'm really about thirty maybe thirty five.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, But I worked as a filmmaker for most of
my career and retired in twenty fourteen, and.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
Soon after that everybody started dying.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
My mom died the same year I retired, my dad
died the next year, and my husband died the year after. So,
you know, retirement didn't go the way I had sort
of imagined.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, and that's that's one of the things we're here
to talk about today, is that you are a writer
and you've been able to take these stories, or at
least one specific story here you and your husband, and
turn it into a book. Tell me about the book.
What made you decide to write the book and when
did the ideas shift from something personal to something that
(02:11):
was meant to be shared. So I'm sure it's very
difficult to talk about, but you decided to put this
out in the world.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Well after my husband died. I became intensely curious about
his life before I met him, because you know, you
don't talk all that much about your partner's teenagehood or
childhood or that, you know, you know, the broad outline,
and that generally does it. You're very busy with your
own kids and your own careers, but when there's no
(02:39):
more chance to.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Ask, I was like, oh wow, I just had to.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
The night of the last wake, I.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
Started like texting his friends.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
And saying, what year did you have that apartment with
Jerry on Victoria and just asking them alf to questions
about like thirty years earlier and there like well, I'm
not you know, they're.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Trying to be kind to me, like, well, we're not.
I'm not really sure.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
But I'll try and figure it out and get back
to and.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Butt.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
At the same time, I was also seeing a grief
counselor from the Palliative carry in It at the Miller Center,
and we were talking about social media and you know,
the way the way people post and express their condolences
or lack of on on the internet, and how I
(03:37):
had been finding some of that really difficult, and so
that also began to interest me, and I thought, Okay,
I'm going to write an article. I never never had
a book in mind. I thought I'm going to write
an article about uh, etiquette about writing about death on
social media, and I'll try and publish it somewhere, you know,
(03:58):
some some I was thinking, oh, the Walrates, I'll go
for the Walrus. I don't know what. And at the
same time, I wanted to do a book about Jerry,
about his graphic arts career and achievements, and we had
actually gone to breakwater with that, and they had they
(04:19):
had said, yeah, we will, you know, we can do
this book a couple of years. It's still we're busy
right now. But somehow we are in there with my
you know, various ideas rolling around in my head and
I kind of started, you know, kind of started to
write some stuff up. And then I had a conversation
(04:43):
with Lisa Moore and this is where everything changed, and
she said, well, you should join my creative nonfiction class
at Memorial this year. This would have been the fall
of twenty seventeen, so not quite a year before my
husband died or after my husban and time. And so
(05:04):
I did that, and by the end of that class
I had written, you know, the kind of a sort
of like several chronological little essays about Okay, this is
from diagnosis right up, right up to death and a
little thing on social media, and I had, you know,
maybe five of them and a list. I said, you know,
if you fleshed this out and you know, went into
(05:25):
detail and stuff, you could maybe get a book out
of this, because like it's interesting, but you know, there's
not enough here right now. And so I ended up
deciding to take more creative nonfiction classes at month with
Robert Finley, and I took two courses with him, and
by the end of the last course, COVID was just beginning.
(05:49):
Like we finished our last course online and I had
a kind of a rough draft of the book, which
at that point was pretty very similar to what it
is now. It's, uh, the first chapter and then the
continuing odd chapters are about the Jerry's diagnosis and eight
(06:09):
months of his illness up to his death, and then
the alternate chapters are as a meeting in our early
years and various scandals and getting back together and you know, yeah,
end life. It was our life and it all sort
of comes together towards the end.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And I love the fact that the book is called
cautiously pessimistic.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
It's really unique. Where did that come from?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Like, does it It kind of sets a tone, doesn't
it that you kind of follow through the through the book.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Well, Cautiously Pessimistic was Jerry's the name of Jerry's website,
and he was Jerry was very much a social media person.
I was not so much, but he, uh, he had
a big following on Twitter and on Facebook, and he
was very good at his graphic card was at a
(07:03):
sense if he were sort of made for making a
funny meme and posting it. He you know, so he
would just do hilarious takeoffs on whatever the political.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
Scandal of the day was. And so anyway, you.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Know, Cautiously Pessimistic had a lot of name recognition amongst
people who you know, followed him. And I didn't call
the book that at the beginning for ages, it wasn't
called that, and all, you know, probably in the last year,
when I was in the middle of the editing process,
I kind of went, you know, I think it should
be cautiously pessimistic. It's part part of it is Jerry. Also,
(07:44):
it's funny. It's also kind of true, you know, the
whole story.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I mean, you know, and necessarily you know we're talking this.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Is a wellness health show, you know, when it comes
to like mental health and putting in perspective, and obviously
you dealt with very very very serious things all in
very short succession as well.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You described the book as like an exploration of.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Communication, family, community, any idea, and I love this of
what is a real problem, like how do those theeves
emerge when you're going through the process of caregiving and
grief Because my mother went through this process, I've seen
it firsthand.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And you know, what is a real problem at that.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Point, Well, Jerry's particular cancer was a brain cancer, and
he was not that ill, like you know, he was
kind of well. We could go places and we did.
We had we kept up our social life. We had
decided we'll just live as normally as we can. We've
got a bucket list now and we're going to try
and do some things on that. But it wasn't until
(08:50):
not long before his death that he began to be,
you know, physically weaker, and he lost his eyesight. But
for the first you know, i'd say, five six months,
a side of the scar on his head, you wouldn't
really know, you know, that this had happened. The communication,
I think I consider that more of a theme of
(09:13):
our early years, you know, like the chapters where we're
you know, we're learning to be a couple and just
dealing with the difficulty of communicating in personal relationships the.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
Family and the community.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I don't know how we would ever have gotten through
his illness without that. It just became right from the
get go. You know, we had family support and support
from the community in this form of you know, meals
being delivered and people just checking on us or dropping
(09:55):
by to see how we were doing. And it was
just really nice not to feel alone with this, you know,
terrible thing that had happened to us. And at the
same time, everyone was very very careful not to like
to give us space, but we just really felt kind
of held by the community. And I have I have
(10:17):
a pretty large family. I have six brothers and sisters.
Jerry ol had one brother and sister one sister, but
she and her family lived in town, so we're very
close with them. And you know, during our life together,
we used to travel a lot to see my family,
so you know, in that short period of time, either
(10:38):
we went to see them or they came to see us,
so we saw every everyone of our family members before
he died, and it was just really important, you know,
because we had this whole life lifetime together of you know,
being an extended family, and so the idea that one
of us is gonna be leaving soon everyone was Everyone
(11:05):
was very affected by that, and yet at the same time, yeah, respectful,
and again we felt, oh, they know what's going on,
and we're being and we're being cared for just by
the fact that they're letting us know that they're aware.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
We're talking with Debbie McGee about her new book, Consciously Pessimistic,
which weaves together her husband Jerry's story, their life together,
and their lessons that they learned about love, community, and perspective.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
We're also talking about how.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Social media changes the way we've a grieved and what
thoughtful online etiquette means for families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
We'll be right back after the break. Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
I'm here with author Debbie McGhee talking about her new book,
Consciously Pessimistic, which has themes of family and community they
carried her through some very difficult times. We're also talking
about etiquette around loss on social media and why that's
an import and consideration, especially for families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Let's get back to our conversation on that side of
like a real problem, does it.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Put everything in perspective when you deal with something like this,
it's as big as it gets.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Well, the real problem came up when we had a
car accident.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
My son had damaged the car in the cancer center
parking lot and as we were kind of, you know,
sort of trying to put it back together so we
could get to the dealer, and a stranger walked by
and said, so, is anybody hurt And we said no, no,
but you know, the whole bumberd's going to have to.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Be replaced, and he said, well, that's not a problem.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
You know, a real problem is something that can't be
fixed with money, and then he just kind of wandered off.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
We were like, as they say, gobsmacked, We're like, we
you know, do you know him?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Do you know it?
Speaker 4 (12:55):
No? I don't know, And it was just how did
he know that we were dealing with? Yeah, well, our
members had a terminal cancer diagnosis, and it's like, now
that's a real problem. No amount of money is going
to fix that. And then from then on it really
helped me get through the rest of the time, because
you know, life is chaotic and there's always small catastrophes
(13:17):
all the time. Like I shattered the car window while
we were on the way to a you know, a
radiation treatment, and my sister was arriving on the airplane
and there's like, now that's but by that time I
was like, well.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
This is a hassle, a hassle, but it's just a hassle.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Nobody's there. It's just some money. You know, we'll deal
with this.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Our real problem is that, you know, we've now learned
that Jerry only has.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
A couple of months to live.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's the real problem.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
It did really help put things in perspective and sort
of figure out where to put your energy and you know,
what to flip out over and what to flip over.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, my dad had terminal cancer and he said don't
sweat the small stuff, and it's also all stuff, and
you know he was dealing with general answer too.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So this is really resonating with me.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And you know, this one of them going to go
back to what you were talking about communication because communication
is so important, but it changes sometimes in moments of crisis.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Language can connect us together.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Right or when there's illness sometimes it can change the
way people communicate. You were visiting family, you were visiting
people close to you. How did communication help and how
did it actually change when people were dealing with this
uncomfortableness but also trying to show compassion.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Yeah, and it's hard, you know, I think because in
my family we had recently gone through the death of
both my parents, so we were kind of in the
you know, death and gashing kind of mode. So it
wasn't that hard to address it. And with our friends, well,
(15:00):
we were different both we had different styles. I was
pretty honest with my friends. I told, you know, told
them what was going on. Jerry preferred to not really
share with his friends until it until it became quite
clear that they were going to find out anyway, because
(15:20):
he couldn't see very well anymore, and you know that
sort of thing. And you know, he had he played
poker regularly, had like a thirty year poker game with friends,
and no. I found the letter, the email that he
wrote when he what he told them. Okay, yeah, I
got to tell you because it's going to get out.
(15:41):
And basically turns out that this humor is like not
going away, just get bigger and you know, that was
the beginning of his like, Okay, I am good at
all my friends and people close to me, and I
think that's really important for the for well, important for
me because I got support from my friends, and important
(16:03):
for him because you know, his friends. I don't know
how much the poker get guys. Really they might not
have talked about it, but they would make a lot
of jokes, and that really helped him. You know, he'd
come home and he would just be have been laughing
his head off all night because they've been making.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
You know, it's funny how we all deal with things differently,
but you know it's funny. Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So that that leads to another theme that's really important
is that all of a sudden, when things get really
real and people are starting to realize that the time
is short with somebody, things can evolve really quickly in
relationships and particular relationships with people that love.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You and they want to make the most of it.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Did you see that definition or that feeling of what
evolved when you guys got to a point where he
was telling everybody.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
The worst was with his father in some ways, because
there had been a period of time when he and
his dad had been estranged, and that had been like
twenty years earlier. But you know, you know, when somebody's
time is shorter than you expected it to be, it's
like then you regret every minute where you were you weren't,
you know, tight and his father would just sometimes he'd
(17:27):
be at our dinner table and he would just put
his head in the hands and start crying, and we'd
be like, hm, you know, well, I'm stirring the rice,
so I can't go over, and you know, Jerry'd be
sort of awkwardly patting him on the on the shoulder.
But at the other on the other hand, it's like,
(17:47):
you know, this is an appropriate reaction, Like if your
son is going to die before you, you probably want
to cry, and you should, you know, And we're the
best people to cry around, because you know, we know.
So there would be those kinds of things. And the
(18:09):
other way people expressed, you know, they're caring, would be
they just invited us. You know, we got all sorts
of dinner invitations and we went to just about all
of them and it was nice, you know, and you know,
(18:30):
I think after he died, I had sort of some
misgivings like I wish that, you know, we had talked
about things in our life that we never resolved, but
you know, it never It wasn't that I didn't actually
think about talking about them and decide not to. It
was just so focused on the moment of what had
(18:53):
to be done that I again, I was not thinking about, oh,
you know that argument we had and really, you know,
as you like, even if I had remembered, I don't
know if I would have brought it up, because like,
who wants to talk about an argument twenty years ago
when it's like, you know, yeah, very even many more
you know, pressing issues are right in front of you.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, it was it about the past at that point.
It was about the present moment. That's why, exactly. Yeah, yeah,
And you know, so when he passed.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
What's unique about this generation of people that hasn't existed
in the past but exists now is this digital time
machine of sorts. You were saying that you were able
to go back and see things like probably textbasters' emails
or social media or old files or drawings or whatever.
How did revisiting that when you decided to do this,
(19:49):
How did that change everything?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
When you sort of reconstructed it at all using this
did it change to your memory? Even?
Speaker 4 (19:56):
No, ohly and sort of like, oh, I thought that
was the afternoon, but clearly here it's more, you know,
it's it's more. It was not that day, it was
the next day. But it's amazing how much detail you
can reconstruct through texts and emails and Facebook posts and Twitter,
(20:17):
and yeah, it was really helpful the chapters where I
luckily for me, I was an early adapter and.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
Had I had a computer in nineteen eighty sit. Uh,
and so I had my copies of letters and that
I send to people.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Normally you would not have the copies, but every you
never know, but I knew I still had it on discs.
So but still it was harder. It was much harder
to feel like I was, you know, more or less
being accurate in the chapters in the past. But it
(21:05):
didn't matter as much, you know, it wasn't there. I
was talking thirty thirty forty years in that gys chat,
not eight.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Well, we're talking with Debbie McGee about her new book,
Consciously Pessimistic, which weaves together her husband Jerry's story, their
life together, and their lessons.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
That they learned about love, community, and perspective.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
We're also talking about how social media changes the way
we've a grieved and what thoughtful online etiquette means for
families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
We'll be right back after the break. Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
I'm here with author Debbie McGee talking about her new
book Consciously Pessimistic, which has themes of family and community
they carried her through some very difficult times. We're also
talking about etiquette around loss on social media and why
that's an important consideration, especially for families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Let's get back to our conversation. Yes, it's more accurate
than recalled, that's for sure. You know it's funny, I was,
I've got dug this.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
This is an audio interview with my grandfather back when
I was a kid, on an old cassette tape, and
I can hear his voice, which is something that it
brings back memory and emotion even to this day, live
with me in my entire life, and I wonder, sometimes,
you know, you doing this firsthand, does that help the
healing process, the grieving process, or does it hinder and
(22:23):
keep it like real still like did you find it
helpful or was it actually more painful?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
No, I do think it's helpful. I mean, you know, grieving,
as you know, takes all all sorts of different tax
you know, It's like sometimes you're very, very sad, but
when you know that will pass over time and then
you'll you'll be in another phase. And often I mean
(22:52):
I've spent nights where I you know, I just read
all the texts that Jerry sent me about I don't
know what some trippy was on or something like that,
you know, and.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Read awesome. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
I think all you know, so.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
We had generally speaking, a good relationship and you know,
uh so most of the memories that are coming up
are all happy ones or you know, so they're not
they're not painful, I think, And you know, I imagine
it would probably change if if if you know, every
everything was like, oh I regret this, I regret this. Yeah,
(23:36):
but I you know, I wasn't finding that.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That's good. That's a life well lived right there.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
But when some of the things that we see online
can't be helped, sometimes are not helpful. So let's let's
go back to where you spoken at the beginning, which
was kind of the impetus for your old book. Uh,
and that is that you kind of tackle This is
a really important thing for our listeners out here, this
nuanced topic, and it's the etiquette of death on social media,
which is something I'd never really thought about, but have
(24:03):
experienced and seen. What did you is observe about how
people respond to loss online, like publicly but also privately.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
And I think what I found at the time was
I was very happy with people sending posts saying, you know,
we're so sorry. You know, we heard about Jerry. Everyone
knew right away because everyone knew he was in palliative
care and he didn't have long so you know, our
closer friends were or waiting, you know, to get the
(24:37):
news kind of things, as were my our family members.
And then when we you know, we announced now that
he was gone, we were you know, we we were
comforted by the messages that we got fairly quickly.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
They were that was good.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
But then I noticed over time that I just became
less comfortable, and I, you know, I was kind of like,
I don't know, what's the matter, Like what am I
not liking?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yes, it was kind of.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
A few things going on. One, you know, we the
immediate family, me and my sons and his sister. We
were very raw, very grieving, and everything touches you, you know,
so something that might not bother you. Today I can
look at some of these posts and go, gee, I don't.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
Know, it doesn't seem all that bad.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
But at the time I was just like, oh, how
could you How could you write that, you know sort
of thing, And often it wasn't It was the you know,
people were remembering, especially as friends from university, you know,
when they were young and and hang it out, and
(26:00):
they were kind of telling anecdotes, but it was on
the page for Jerry, so it was kind of like
also the main grieving page. They were kind of having
a little bit of a reunion online, you know, so
we were you know, they were branching off into stories.
But remember that year, you know, and I just I
had I felt like the host of the so I
(26:22):
had to read everything and kind of you know, like
it or then give some sort of reaction. But I
became my reaction became less sincere. I might give it
a like, but I didn't really like it, you know,
being the host. And then I wrote to a friend
at one point I said, I don't know know why,
(26:42):
It's kind of bothering me. It's like, we just we
just lost our our father, you know, my husband, their
their father, and they're having a party, and yet they
don't even mention us. It's like, you know, they're dealing
with another part of their life and what's really happening
(27:04):
right now.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
It's not a reunion.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, and uh.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
So, just that's how I sort of got it into this,
in this thing of like, well, what, you know, what
would make me? What would have been better? You know,
what would have been okay? And I started to do
a little bit of research and look for other people
who might have written about this.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
Found a few things, not not that much, although there
is there is a whole area to go into there.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, I mean, what would what would be the biggest
advice for people that may not they may think they're
helping or may think they're talking about the good times
and everything else, but there's people on the other side
that are not in that same headspace. You know, what's
what's your advice to somebody who wants to show support
and loves and care, but at the same time they
have to be sensitive to people that are left here.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Well, I think in the end I sort of have
like a few main things.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
It's like, okay, it's not a news item, it's not
you know, not something you need to scoop everybody on.
So you don't have to be the first person to post,
you know, just be respectful and wait for the family
you know, to uh to be the one to say something,
and then you could you couldn't start, and then when
(28:20):
you do respond, like a very very common thing is
for people to say I lost my friend and then
they a'll get oh, sorry for the loss of your friends,
Sorry for the loss of your friend. And if they
have a huge following on the internet, some people do have,
you know, ten thousand followers kind of thing, they might
(28:41):
get ten thousand condolences for the for the loss of
their friend who is your husband or your father And
you don't even know these people, they don't know you,
so that but because the name Jerry Porter is in
the initial text, you're going to get a notification for
all of them. They'll weill appear on your feet. So
(29:01):
it's I use. The analogy is sort of like would
be like if you were at a wake and you're
standing by the coffin and a work colleague is there
and they've got a huge line of people, yet condolences
to them like that would never happen in real life, right,
it just wouldn't. Everyone would know that was not okay.
(29:22):
But on Facebook, you know, we don't know. We're not
not seeing each other. It feels like it's it's a
one one on one, or that it's it's everyone's equal,
everyone's allowed to post. But death is an equal and
it doesn't affect us all equally. And you know, there's
in the real world, and that applies to the online
(29:44):
world a hierarchy of grief, like where how close are
you to the people who who had the loss?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
You know, you know there's a sort of a circle
that goes out and most of the people on Facebook
are on the way outer of that circle. Yeah, but
they might be I'm posting the most.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
We're talking with Debbie McGee about her new book, Consciously Pessimistic,
which weaves together her husband Jerry's story, their life together,
and their lessons that they learned about love, community, and perspective.
We're also talking about how social media changes the way
we've grieved and what thoughtful online etiquette means for families
experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
We'll be right back after the break.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
You're listening to what we broadcast of The Wellness and
Healthy Lifestyle Show with Doctor Mike Wall. Listen live Thursday
nights at seven pm and Sunday's at four pm.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
I'm here with author Debbie McGee talking about her new
book Consciously Pessimistic, which has themes of family and community
they carried her through some very difficult times. We're also
talking about etiquette around loss on social media and why
that's an important consideration, especially for families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Let's get back to our conversation.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
That's such an interesting way to put it though, with
the lie at the coffin, and you don't think about
that that way, but you're right, like you know, and
people obviously are feeling pain if their friend was lost.
But again, if that's coming back and hitting the people
and reminding them and dealing with that strangers that they
don't know, it's just going to add this extra layer
of frustration while you're trying to.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Deal with that.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
It's easy to do that. You could say so sorry
you lost your friend, my condolences to their family and
loved ones, and just.
Speaker 5 (31:23):
One little wreck, one little bit, you know, we'll make
all the difference.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
That's all you have to do, or you know.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Our private message. Yeah exactly, Yeah, that's I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
And so this whole thing, it's evolved, right, So you
was a story about the experience you had from start
to the grieving process and then what you've learned along
the way. Writing a book is not easy. It's very challenging,
and there had to be parts that were really hard
to write and those other parts that were easy. Did
(31:54):
you have any of those sections that were easier and
harder than others?
Speaker 4 (31:58):
Yeah, it wasn't hard at all to write the you know,
the eight months you know, diagnosis to death, because I
really wanted to. I wanted like, what the hell just happened?
You know, I wanted to get it out and kind
of go okay, okay. Harder parts were because it's not
(32:20):
just my story. My sons are involved in Jerry's sisters
and then his friends, so you know, I had to
be careful not to tell stories that weren't mine to tell,
and if I felt I was maybe crossing a line,
get their permission. So I think maybe the hardest part
(32:43):
to write was about the social media critique, because I
knew I was sounding like I was kind of getting scolding.
I was scolding and it's like, oh, come on, you
know white, not for whatever, you know, that kind of thing.
So I want That was hard to write, to try
and express myself, and I wanted to have this conversation
(33:04):
and get it going and just get it into people's
minds that it's not so straightforward, but that Yeah, that took.
That took quite a bit of work to just like
and at one point I had it sort of incorporated
into the book, and you know, readers said, you know,
(33:25):
we're we're reading your story, we're really interested, and all
of a sudden, you've got like this footnote from somebody
else but their grief experience, and it's just interrupting the flow.
I don't want to know about them. I want to
know about you and what's going on. And so I
ended up kind of taking all that stuff out of
the main book and making it into an afterward. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, And I'm wondering, you know, your book came out
in June, so it's been out for a while, right now,
what's the response been.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Have you had lots of feedback from it so far?
Speaker 4 (33:59):
I have. I've never written a book before and I
had made films, and films came out and never happened
to me with my films. But this was before social media,
so it wasn't so easy to get hold of people
on those days. But I have received many emails and texts,
some real letters in the real and from friends and family,
(34:27):
like people who are close to me, but also from
just like acquaintances, people that I don't know that well.
From the city is Saint John's, but also around the
country because I've lived a few places. And I think
because the book is very open, that people want to
(34:48):
kind of reach out when they're in that sort of
immediate after glow of having read it. I had a
lot of I just finished your book, and I just
want to say it was just so magical and I'm
still crying. And I've had I've had letters from people
(35:09):
who have lost husbands and and other and other loved ones,
and they they identified with a lot of you know what,
how I.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
Had been thinking and going through. And then the the
one that was kind.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
Of I don't know, I guess you might say I
was the most meaningful, but I was quite grateful was
a person I didn't know who was suffering from their
own terminal diagnosis. Sent me a text on Messenger and said,
(35:47):
you know, I got this book. I was visiting the
Saint John's and I like breakwater, so I went in
the store and I got your book, and I just
wanted to tell you.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
I I, you know, my life is kind of a
lot like your life. And they lived in a different city.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
And I think this book is going to be really
helpful to me and my family as we, you know,
get closer to buy end. And that was I was like, wow,
I you know, of course I would hope that it
would be helpful, but you know that to have that
person reach out like that, that was really I don't know,
(36:28):
I was pretty happy or I don't know what happens
the word chuck.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Grateful, grateful, grateful to be able to share. And that's
one thing I've noticed in our conversation today. You're very
open about a very challenging subject. I think that's really
important for people to have the ability to communicate really
complex things, which I can only imagine that this has
translated perfectly to especially.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
The people that are going through it, like that individual
that reached out.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
You know, we're starting to wrap up here, But I
think it's important to ask, you know, what's what's your
what's your advice to somebody going through a similar experience,
whether they're caring for a partner with terminal illness or
a family member, or there's somebody going through this right now,
what would you want them to take from your story?
Speaker 4 (37:14):
I think it's hard to generalize because every illness and
every family, every relationship is so different. So I you know,
it's like, I don't know if I want to give
advice this this is our story. I'll share our story.
I think those themes of love, family, community, communication, and
(37:42):
keeping things in perspective, you know, so you're you are
not sweating the small stuff will help will be up
to day anybody in this situation. And you know, i'd
also say, yeah, he notes when you go to the
doctor and don't go along to the doctor.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Well, you know, if if Jerry could read the book,
what do you think he would say about it?
Speaker 4 (38:13):
He would say something very very witty. I have no
doubt I'd probably say something like yeah, overshare much, But
I I don't know. I like to hope that he'd
be pleased. You know, he'd be like probably being me
like somewhat like, oh my god. You know, it's all
(38:33):
out there. But I think that would be a great
dinner table conversation game to play like at Christmas this year.
You know, Jerry would say, and well, we'll compete to
be the wittiest. I love it.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Well, that's great, and you know, I just I just
want to say thank you so much for sharing today,
for writing this book, which I think is going to
help so many different people.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Debbie, thank you so much for joining me today. I
really enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
I did two. Thanks so much, Mike. Well.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
That brings us to the end of today's episode, A
big thank you to Debbie McGee for joining me and
sharing the story behind her moving book, Cautiously Pessimistic. It's
an honest, heartfelt look at caregiving, grief, and the importance
of family and community. You can pick up a copy
of Consciously Pessimistic at Breakwater Books or wherever books are found. Well,
that's our show this week. I'm your host, doctor Mike Wall.
(39:27):
We'll see you back here next time on the Well
and Snelty Lifestyle Show on the Stingray podcast Network. In
your vocm
Welcome to the Wellness and Healthy Lifestyle show on your VOCM. Now,
here's your host, Doctor Mike Wall.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the show. I'm your host, Doctor Mike Wall.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Today we're diving into a conversation that blends love, loss,
and the power of storytelling. My guest is Debbie McGee,
a filmmaker turned author whose new book Cautiously Pessimistic explores
her late husband's journey to illness, their life together, the
meaning of family, community, and communication during some of life's
hardest moments. We'll talk about how the book began, how
(00:38):
grief shaped her writing, and even explored the etiquette of
navigating loss on social media, something that many of us
maybe never thought about until we experience it for ourselves.
There's so much wisdom here about not sweating the small stuff,
leaning on loved ones, and finding perspective in the middle
of chaos. It's a great conversation, so let's get to it.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Hi, Debbie, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Fantastic to meet you. I've heard all about you and
are all about your book. But for the folks that
are listening, maybe you could give them a bit of
a background on yourself.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Oh well, I'm seventy two years old. I would begin
with my age because I just can't believe I'm seventy
two years old.
Speaker 5 (01:20):
In my mind, I'm really about thirty maybe thirty five.
Speaker 4 (01:24):
Yeah, But I worked as a filmmaker for most of
my career and retired in twenty fourteen, and.
Speaker 5 (01:35):
Soon after that everybody started dying.
Speaker 4 (01:40):
My mom died the same year I retired, my dad
died the next year, and my husband died the year after. So,
you know, retirement didn't go the way I had sort
of imagined.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah, and that's that's one of the things we're here
to talk about today, is that you are a writer
and you've been able to take these stories, or at
least one specific story here you and your husband, and
turn it into a book. Tell me about the book.
What made you decide to write the book and when
did the ideas shift from something personal to something that
(02:11):
was meant to be shared. So I'm sure it's very
difficult to talk about, but you decided to put this
out in the world.
Speaker 4 (02:17):
Well after my husband died. I became intensely curious about
his life before I met him, because you know, you
don't talk all that much about your partner's teenagehood or
childhood or that, you know, you know, the broad outline,
and that generally does it. You're very busy with your
own kids and your own careers, but when there's no
(02:39):
more chance to.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Ask, I was like, oh wow, I just had to.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
The night of the last wake, I.
Speaker 5 (02:48):
Started like texting his friends.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
And saying, what year did you have that apartment with
Jerry on Victoria and just asking them alf to questions
about like thirty years earlier and there like well, I'm
not you know, they're.
Speaker 5 (03:02):
Trying to be kind to me, like, well, we're not.
I'm not really sure.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
But I'll try and figure it out and get back
to and.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Butt.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
At the same time, I was also seeing a grief
counselor from the Palliative carry in It at the Miller Center,
and we were talking about social media and you know,
the way the way people post and express their condolences
or lack of on on the internet, and how I
(03:37):
had been finding some of that really difficult, and so
that also began to interest me, and I thought, Okay,
I'm going to write an article. I never never had
a book in mind. I thought I'm going to write
an article about uh, etiquette about writing about death on
social media, and I'll try and publish it somewhere, you know,
(03:58):
some some I was thinking, oh, the Walrates, I'll go
for the Walrus. I don't know what. And at the
same time, I wanted to do a book about Jerry,
about his graphic arts career and achievements, and we had
actually gone to breakwater with that, and they had they
(04:19):
had said, yeah, we will, you know, we can do
this book a couple of years. It's still we're busy
right now. But somehow we are in there with my
you know, various ideas rolling around in my head and
I kind of started, you know, kind of started to
write some stuff up. And then I had a conversation
(04:43):
with Lisa Moore and this is where everything changed, and
she said, well, you should join my creative nonfiction class
at Memorial this year. This would have been the fall
of twenty seventeen, so not quite a year before my
husband died or after my husban and time. And so
(05:04):
I did that, and by the end of that class
I had written, you know, the kind of a sort
of like several chronological little essays about Okay, this is
from diagnosis right up, right up to death and a
little thing on social media, and I had, you know,
maybe five of them and a list. I said, you know,
if you fleshed this out and you know, went into
(05:25):
detail and stuff, you could maybe get a book out
of this, because like it's interesting, but you know, there's
not enough here right now. And so I ended up
deciding to take more creative nonfiction classes at month with
Robert Finley, and I took two courses with him, and
by the end of the last course, COVID was just beginning.
(05:49):
Like we finished our last course online and I had
a kind of a rough draft of the book, which
at that point was pretty very similar to what it
is now. It's, uh, the first chapter and then the
continuing odd chapters are about the Jerry's diagnosis and eight
(06:09):
months of his illness up to his death, and then
the alternate chapters are as a meeting in our early
years and various scandals and getting back together and you know, yeah,
end life. It was our life and it all sort
of comes together towards the end.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
And I love the fact that the book is called
cautiously pessimistic.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
It's really unique. Where did that come from?
Speaker 3 (06:35):
Like, does it It kind of sets a tone, doesn't
it that you kind of follow through the through the book.
Speaker 4 (06:41):
Well, Cautiously Pessimistic was Jerry's the name of Jerry's website,
and he was Jerry was very much a social media person.
I was not so much, but he, uh, he had
a big following on Twitter and on Facebook, and he
was very good at his graphic card was at a
(07:03):
sense if he were sort of made for making a
funny meme and posting it. He you know, so he
would just do hilarious takeoffs on whatever the political.
Speaker 5 (07:15):
Scandal of the day was. And so anyway, you.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
Know, Cautiously Pessimistic had a lot of name recognition amongst
people who you know, followed him. And I didn't call
the book that at the beginning for ages, it wasn't
called that, and all, you know, probably in the last year,
when I was in the middle of the editing process,
I kind of went, you know, I think it should
be cautiously pessimistic. It's part part of it is Jerry. Also,
(07:44):
it's funny. It's also kind of true, you know, the
whole story.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
Yeah, yeah, it makes perfect sense.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I mean, you know, and necessarily you know we're talking this.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Is a wellness health show, you know, when it comes
to like mental health and putting in perspective, and obviously
you dealt with very very very serious things all in
very short succession as well.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
You described the book as like an exploration of.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Communication, family, community, any idea, and I love this of
what is a real problem, like how do those theeves
emerge when you're going through the process of caregiving and
grief Because my mother went through this process, I've seen
it firsthand.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
And you know, what is a real problem at that.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Point, Well, Jerry's particular cancer was a brain cancer, and
he was not that ill, like you know, he was
kind of well. We could go places and we did.
We had we kept up our social life. We had
decided we'll just live as normally as we can. We've
got a bucket list now and we're going to try
and do some things on that. But it wasn't until
(08:50):
not long before his death that he began to be,
you know, physically weaker, and he lost his eyesight. But
for the first you know, i'd say, five six months,
a side of the scar on his head, you wouldn't
really know, you know, that this had happened. The communication,
I think I consider that more of a theme of
(09:13):
our early years, you know, like the chapters where we're
you know, we're learning to be a couple and just
dealing with the difficulty of communicating in personal relationships the.
Speaker 5 (09:29):
Family and the community.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
I don't know how we would ever have gotten through
his illness without that. It just became right from the
get go. You know, we had family support and support
from the community in this form of you know, meals
being delivered and people just checking on us or dropping
(09:55):
by to see how we were doing. And it was
just really nice not to feel alone with this, you know,
terrible thing that had happened to us. And at the
same time, everyone was very very careful not to like
to give us space, but we just really felt kind
of held by the community. And I have I have
(10:17):
a pretty large family. I have six brothers and sisters.
Jerry ol had one brother and sister one sister, but
she and her family lived in town, so we're very
close with them. And you know, during our life together,
we used to travel a lot to see my family,
so you know, in that short period of time, either
(10:38):
we went to see them or they came to see us,
so we saw every everyone of our family members before
he died, and it was just really important, you know,
because we had this whole life lifetime together of you know,
being an extended family, and so the idea that one
of us is gonna be leaving soon everyone was Everyone
(11:05):
was very affected by that, and yet at the same time, yeah, respectful,
and again we felt, oh, they know what's going on,
and we're being and we're being cared for just by
the fact that they're letting us know that they're aware.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
We're talking with Debbie McGee about her new book, Consciously Pessimistic,
which weaves together her husband Jerry's story, their life together,
and their lessons that they learned about love, community, and perspective.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
We're also talking about how.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Social media changes the way we've a grieved and what
thoughtful online etiquette means for families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
We'll be right back after the break. Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
I'm here with author Debbie McGhee talking about her new book,
Consciously Pessimistic, which has themes of family and community they
carried her through some very difficult times. We're also talking
about etiquette around loss on social media and why that's
an import and consideration, especially for families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Let's get back to our conversation on that side of
like a real problem, does it.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Put everything in perspective when you deal with something like this,
it's as big as it gets.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Well, the real problem came up when we had a
car accident.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
My son had damaged the car in the cancer center
parking lot and as we were kind of, you know,
sort of trying to put it back together so we
could get to the dealer, and a stranger walked by
and said, so, is anybody hurt And we said no, no,
but you know, the whole bumberd's going to have to.
Speaker 5 (12:39):
Be replaced, and he said, well, that's not a problem.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
You know, a real problem is something that can't be
fixed with money, and then he just kind of wandered off.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
We were like, as they say, gobsmacked, We're like, we
you know, do you know him?
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Do you know it?
Speaker 4 (12:55):
No? I don't know, And it was just how did
he know that we were dealing with? Yeah, well, our
members had a terminal cancer diagnosis, and it's like, now
that's a real problem. No amount of money is going
to fix that. And then from then on it really
helped me get through the rest of the time, because
you know, life is chaotic and there's always small catastrophes
(13:17):
all the time. Like I shattered the car window while
we were on the way to a you know, a
radiation treatment, and my sister was arriving on the airplane
and there's like, now that's but by that time I
was like, well.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
This is a hassle, a hassle, but it's just a hassle.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
Nobody's there. It's just some money. You know, we'll deal
with this.
Speaker 5 (13:39):
Our real problem is that, you know, we've now learned
that Jerry only has.
Speaker 4 (13:43):
A couple of months to live.
Speaker 2 (13:44):
That's the real problem.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
It did really help put things in perspective and sort
of figure out where to put your energy and you know,
what to flip out over and what to flip over.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Yeah, my dad had terminal cancer and he said don't
sweat the small stuff, and it's also all stuff, and
you know he was dealing with general answer too.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
So this is really resonating with me.
Speaker 3 (14:05):
And you know, this one of them going to go
back to what you were talking about communication because communication
is so important, but it changes sometimes in moments of crisis.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Language can connect us together.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Right or when there's illness sometimes it can change the
way people communicate. You were visiting family, you were visiting
people close to you. How did communication help and how
did it actually change when people were dealing with this
uncomfortableness but also trying to show compassion.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Yeah, and it's hard, you know, I think because in
my family we had recently gone through the death of
both my parents, so we were kind of in the
you know, death and gashing kind of mode. So it
wasn't that hard to address it. And with our friends, well,
(15:00):
we were different both we had different styles. I was
pretty honest with my friends. I told, you know, told
them what was going on. Jerry preferred to not really
share with his friends until it until it became quite
clear that they were going to find out anyway, because
(15:20):
he couldn't see very well anymore, and you know that
sort of thing. And you know, he had he played
poker regularly, had like a thirty year poker game with friends,
and no. I found the letter, the email that he
wrote when he what he told them. Okay, yeah, I
got to tell you because it's going to get out.
(15:41):
And basically turns out that this humor is like not
going away, just get bigger and you know, that was
the beginning of his like, Okay, I am good at
all my friends and people close to me, and I
think that's really important for the for well, important for
me because I got support from my friends, and important
(16:03):
for him because you know, his friends. I don't know
how much the poker get guys. Really they might not
have talked about it, but they would make a lot
of jokes, and that really helped him. You know, he'd
come home and he would just be have been laughing
his head off all night because they've been making.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
You know, it's funny how we all deal with things differently,
but you know it's funny. Okay.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
So that that leads to another theme that's really important
is that all of a sudden, when things get really
real and people are starting to realize that the time
is short with somebody, things can evolve really quickly in
relationships and particular relationships with people that love.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
You and they want to make the most of it.
Speaker 3 (16:44):
Did you see that definition or that feeling of what
evolved when you guys got to a point where he
was telling everybody.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yeah, I think.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
The worst was with his father in some ways, because
there had been a period of time when he and
his dad had been estranged, and that had been like
twenty years earlier. But you know, you know, when somebody's
time is shorter than you expected it to be, it's
like then you regret every minute where you were you weren't,
you know, tight and his father would just sometimes he'd
(17:27):
be at our dinner table and he would just put
his head in the hands and start crying, and we'd
be like, hm, you know, well, I'm stirring the rice,
so I can't go over, and you know, Jerry'd be
sort of awkwardly patting him on the on the shoulder.
But at the other on the other hand, it's like,
(17:47):
you know, this is an appropriate reaction, Like if your
son is going to die before you, you probably want
to cry, and you should, you know, And we're the
best people to cry around, because you know, we know.
So there would be those kinds of things. And the
(18:09):
other way people expressed, you know, they're caring, would be
they just invited us. You know, we got all sorts
of dinner invitations and we went to just about all
of them and it was nice, you know, and you know,
(18:30):
I think after he died, I had sort of some
misgivings like I wish that, you know, we had talked
about things in our life that we never resolved, but
you know, it never It wasn't that I didn't actually
think about talking about them and decide not to. It
was just so focused on the moment of what had
(18:53):
to be done that I again, I was not thinking about, oh,
you know that argument we had and really, you know,
as you like, even if I had remembered, I don't
know if I would have brought it up, because like,
who wants to talk about an argument twenty years ago
when it's like, you know, yeah, very even many more
you know, pressing issues are right in front of you.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
Yeah, it was it about the past at that point.
It was about the present moment. That's why, exactly. Yeah, yeah,
And you know, so when he passed.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
What's unique about this generation of people that hasn't existed
in the past but exists now is this digital time
machine of sorts. You were saying that you were able
to go back and see things like probably textbasters' emails
or social media or old files or drawings or whatever.
How did revisiting that when you decided to do this,
(19:49):
How did that change everything?
Speaker 2 (19:50):
When you sort of reconstructed it at all using this
did it change to your memory? Even?
Speaker 4 (19:56):
No, ohly and sort of like, oh, I thought that
was the afternoon, but clearly here it's more, you know,
it's it's more. It was not that day, it was
the next day. But it's amazing how much detail you
can reconstruct through texts and emails and Facebook posts and Twitter,
(20:17):
and yeah, it was really helpful the chapters where I
luckily for me, I was an early adapter and.
Speaker 5 (20:29):
Had I had a computer in nineteen eighty sit. Uh,
and so I had my copies of letters and that
I send to people.
Speaker 4 (20:43):
Normally you would not have the copies, but every you
never know, but I knew I still had it on discs.
So but still it was harder. It was much harder
to feel like I was, you know, more or less
being accurate in the chapters in the past. But it
(21:05):
didn't matter as much, you know, it wasn't there. I
was talking thirty thirty forty years in that gys chat,
not eight.
Speaker 3 (21:11):
Well, we're talking with Debbie McGee about her new book,
Consciously Pessimistic, which weaves together her husband Jerry's story, their
life together, and their lessons.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
That they learned about love, community, and perspective.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
We're also talking about how social media changes the way
we've a grieved and what thoughtful online etiquette means for
families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
We'll be right back after the break. Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
I'm here with author Debbie McGee talking about her new
book Consciously Pessimistic, which has themes of family and community
they carried her through some very difficult times. We're also
talking about etiquette around loss on social media and why
that's an important consideration, especially for families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
Let's get back to our conversation. Yes, it's more accurate
than recalled, that's for sure. You know it's funny, I was,
I've got dug this.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
This is an audio interview with my grandfather back when
I was a kid, on an old cassette tape, and
I can hear his voice, which is something that it
brings back memory and emotion even to this day, live
with me in my entire life, and I wonder, sometimes,
you know, you doing this firsthand, does that help the
healing process, the grieving process, or does it hinder and
(22:23):
keep it like real still like did you find it
helpful or was it actually more painful?
Speaker 4 (22:28):
No, I do think it's helpful. I mean, you know, grieving,
as you know, takes all all sorts of different tax
you know, It's like sometimes you're very, very sad, but
when you know that will pass over time and then
you'll you'll be in another phase. And often I mean
(22:52):
I've spent nights where I you know, I just read
all the texts that Jerry sent me about I don't
know what some trippy was on or something like that,
you know, and.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Read awesome. Yeah, I think.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
I think all you know, so.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
We had generally speaking, a good relationship and you know,
uh so most of the memories that are coming up
are all happy ones or you know, so they're not
they're not painful, I think, And you know, I imagine
it would probably change if if if you know, every
everything was like, oh I regret this, I regret this. Yeah,
(23:36):
but I you know, I wasn't finding that.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
That's good. That's a life well lived right there.
Speaker 4 (23:42):
You know.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
But when some of the things that we see online
can't be helped, sometimes are not helpful. So let's let's
go back to where you spoken at the beginning, which
was kind of the impetus for your old book. Uh,
and that is that you kind of tackle This is
a really important thing for our listeners out here, this
nuanced topic, and it's the etiquette of death on social media,
which is something I'd never really thought about, but have
(24:03):
experienced and seen. What did you is observe about how
people respond to loss online, like publicly but also privately.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
And I think what I found at the time was
I was very happy with people sending posts saying, you know,
we're so sorry. You know, we heard about Jerry. Everyone
knew right away because everyone knew he was in palliative
care and he didn't have long so you know, our
closer friends were or waiting, you know, to get the
(24:37):
news kind of things, as were my our family members.
And then when we you know, we announced now that
he was gone, we were you know, we we were
comforted by the messages that we got fairly quickly.
Speaker 5 (24:53):
They were that was good.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
But then I noticed over time that I just became
less comfortable, and I, you know, I was kind of like,
I don't know, what's the matter, Like what am I
not liking?
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yes, it was kind of.
Speaker 4 (25:17):
A few things going on. One, you know, we the
immediate family, me and my sons and his sister. We
were very raw, very grieving, and everything touches you, you know,
so something that might not bother you. Today I can
look at some of these posts and go, gee, I don't.
Speaker 5 (25:37):
Know, it doesn't seem all that bad.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
But at the time I was just like, oh, how
could you How could you write that, you know sort
of thing, And often it wasn't It was the you know,
people were remembering, especially as friends from university, you know,
when they were young and and hang it out, and
(26:00):
they were kind of telling anecdotes, but it was on
the page for Jerry, so it was kind of like
also the main grieving page. They were kind of having
a little bit of a reunion online, you know, so
we were you know, they were branching off into stories.
But remember that year, you know, and I just I
had I felt like the host of the so I
(26:22):
had to read everything and kind of you know, like
it or then give some sort of reaction. But I
became my reaction became less sincere. I might give it
a like, but I didn't really like it, you know,
being the host. And then I wrote to a friend
at one point I said, I don't know know why,
(26:42):
It's kind of bothering me. It's like, we just we
just lost our our father, you know, my husband, their
their father, and they're having a party, and yet they
don't even mention us. It's like, you know, they're dealing
with another part of their life and what's really happening
(27:04):
right now.
Speaker 5 (27:05):
It's not a reunion.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Yeah, and uh.
Speaker 4 (27:13):
So, just that's how I sort of got it into this,
in this thing of like, well, what, you know, what
would make me? What would have been better? You know,
what would have been okay? And I started to do
a little bit of research and look for other people
who might have written about this.
Speaker 5 (27:27):
Found a few things, not not that much, although there
is there is a whole area to go into there.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, I mean, what would what would be the biggest
advice for people that may not they may think they're
helping or may think they're talking about the good times
and everything else, but there's people on the other side
that are not in that same headspace. You know, what's
what's your advice to somebody who wants to show support
and loves and care, but at the same time they
have to be sensitive to people that are left here.
Speaker 5 (27:53):
Well, I think in the end I sort of have
like a few main things.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
It's like, okay, it's not a news item, it's not
you know, not something you need to scoop everybody on.
So you don't have to be the first person to post,
you know, just be respectful and wait for the family
you know, to uh to be the one to say something,
and then you could you couldn't start, and then when
(28:20):
you do respond, like a very very common thing is
for people to say I lost my friend and then
they a'll get oh, sorry for the loss of your friends,
Sorry for the loss of your friend. And if they
have a huge following on the internet, some people do have,
you know, ten thousand followers kind of thing, they might
(28:41):
get ten thousand condolences for the for the loss of
their friend who is your husband or your father And
you don't even know these people, they don't know you,
so that but because the name Jerry Porter is in
the initial text, you're going to get a notification for
all of them. They'll weill appear on your feet. So
(29:01):
it's I use. The analogy is sort of like would
be like if you were at a wake and you're
standing by the coffin and a work colleague is there
and they've got a huge line of people, yet condolences
to them like that would never happen in real life, right,
it just wouldn't. Everyone would know that was not okay.
(29:22):
But on Facebook, you know, we don't know. We're not
not seeing each other. It feels like it's it's a
one one on one, or that it's it's everyone's equal,
everyone's allowed to post. But death is an equal and
it doesn't affect us all equally. And you know, there's
in the real world, and that applies to the online
(29:44):
world a hierarchy of grief, like where how close are
you to the people who who had the loss?
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (29:51):
You know, you know there's a sort of a circle
that goes out and most of the people on Facebook
are on the way outer of that circle. Yeah, but
they might be I'm posting the most.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
We're talking with Debbie McGee about her new book, Consciously Pessimistic,
which weaves together her husband Jerry's story, their life together,
and their lessons that they learned about love, community, and perspective.
We're also talking about how social media changes the way
we've grieved and what thoughtful online etiquette means for families
experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
We'll be right back after the break.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
You're listening to what we broadcast of The Wellness and
Healthy Lifestyle Show with Doctor Mike Wall. Listen live Thursday
nights at seven pm and Sunday's at four pm.
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Welcome back.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
I'm here with author Debbie McGee talking about her new
book Consciously Pessimistic, which has themes of family and community
they carried her through some very difficult times. We're also
talking about etiquette around loss on social media and why
that's an important consideration, especially for families experiencing loss.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Let's get back to our conversation.
Speaker 3 (30:56):
That's such an interesting way to put it though, with
the lie at the coffin, and you don't think about
that that way, but you're right, like you know, and
people obviously are feeling pain if their friend was lost.
But again, if that's coming back and hitting the people
and reminding them and dealing with that strangers that they
don't know, it's just going to add this extra layer
of frustration while you're trying to.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Deal with that.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
It's easy to do that. You could say so sorry
you lost your friend, my condolences to their family and
loved ones, and just.
Speaker 5 (31:23):
One little wreck, one little bit, you know, we'll make
all the difference.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
That's all you have to do, or you know.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Our private message. Yeah exactly, Yeah, that's I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
And so this whole thing, it's evolved, right, So you
was a story about the experience you had from start
to the grieving process and then what you've learned along
the way. Writing a book is not easy. It's very challenging,
and there had to be parts that were really hard
to write and those other parts that were easy. Did
(31:54):
you have any of those sections that were easier and
harder than others?
Speaker 4 (31:58):
Yeah, it wasn't hard at all to write the you know,
the eight months you know, diagnosis to death, because I
really wanted to. I wanted like, what the hell just happened?
You know, I wanted to get it out and kind
of go okay, okay. Harder parts were because it's not
(32:20):
just my story. My sons are involved in Jerry's sisters
and then his friends, so you know, I had to
be careful not to tell stories that weren't mine to tell,
and if I felt I was maybe crossing a line,
get their permission. So I think maybe the hardest part
(32:43):
to write was about the social media critique, because I
knew I was sounding like I was kind of getting scolding.
I was scolding and it's like, oh, come on, you
know white, not for whatever, you know, that kind of thing.
So I want That was hard to write, to try
and express myself, and I wanted to have this conversation
(33:04):
and get it going and just get it into people's
minds that it's not so straightforward, but that Yeah, that took.
That took quite a bit of work to just like
and at one point I had it sort of incorporated
into the book, and you know, readers said, you know,
(33:25):
we're we're reading your story, we're really interested, and all
of a sudden, you've got like this footnote from somebody
else but their grief experience, and it's just interrupting the flow.
I don't want to know about them. I want to
know about you and what's going on. And so I
ended up kind of taking all that stuff out of
the main book and making it into an afterward. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
Yeah, And I'm wondering, you know, your book came out
in June, so it's been out for a while, right now,
what's the response been.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Have you had lots of feedback from it so far?
Speaker 4 (33:59):
I have. I've never written a book before and I
had made films, and films came out and never happened
to me with my films. But this was before social media,
so it wasn't so easy to get hold of people
on those days. But I have received many emails and texts,
some real letters in the real and from friends and family,
(34:27):
like people who are close to me, but also from
just like acquaintances, people that I don't know that well.
From the city is Saint John's, but also around the
country because I've lived a few places. And I think
because the book is very open, that people want to
(34:48):
kind of reach out when they're in that sort of
immediate after glow of having read it. I had a
lot of I just finished your book, and I just
want to say it was just so magical and I'm
still crying. And I've had I've had letters from people
(35:09):
who have lost husbands and and other and other loved ones,
and they they identified with a lot of you know what,
how I.
Speaker 5 (35:20):
Had been thinking and going through. And then the the
one that was kind.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
Of I don't know, I guess you might say I
was the most meaningful, but I was quite grateful was
a person I didn't know who was suffering from their
own terminal diagnosis. Sent me a text on Messenger and said,
(35:47):
you know, I got this book. I was visiting the
Saint John's and I like breakwater, so I went in
the store and I got your book, and I just
wanted to tell you.
Speaker 5 (35:58):
I I, you know, my life is kind of a
lot like your life. And they lived in a different city.
Speaker 4 (36:06):
And I think this book is going to be really
helpful to me and my family as we, you know,
get closer to buy end. And that was I was like, wow,
I you know, of course I would hope that it
would be helpful, but you know that to have that
person reach out like that, that was really I don't know,
(36:28):
I was pretty happy or I don't know what happens
the word chuck.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (36:34):
Grateful, grateful, grateful to be able to share. And that's
one thing I've noticed in our conversation today. You're very
open about a very challenging subject. I think that's really
important for people to have the ability to communicate really
complex things, which I can only imagine that this has
translated perfectly to especially.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
The people that are going through it, like that individual
that reached out.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
You know, we're starting to wrap up here, But I
think it's important to ask, you know, what's what's your
what's your advice to somebody going through a similar experience,
whether they're caring for a partner with terminal illness or
a family member, or there's somebody going through this right now,
what would you want them to take from your story?
Speaker 4 (37:14):
I think it's hard to generalize because every illness and
every family, every relationship is so different. So I you know,
it's like, I don't know if I want to give
advice this this is our story. I'll share our story.
I think those themes of love, family, community, communication, and
(37:42):
keeping things in perspective, you know, so you're you are
not sweating the small stuff will help will be up
to day anybody in this situation. And you know, i'd
also say, yeah, he notes when you go to the
doctor and don't go along to the doctor.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Well, you know, if if Jerry could read the book,
what do you think he would say about it?
Speaker 4 (38:13):
He would say something very very witty. I have no
doubt I'd probably say something like yeah, overshare much, But
I I don't know. I like to hope that he'd
be pleased. You know, he'd be like probably being me
like somewhat like, oh my god. You know, it's all
(38:33):
out there. But I think that would be a great
dinner table conversation game to play like at Christmas this year.
You know, Jerry would say, and well, we'll compete to
be the wittiest. I love it.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
I love it.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
Well, that's great, and you know, I just I just
want to say thank you so much for sharing today,
for writing this book, which I think is going to
help so many different people.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
Debbie, thank you so much for joining me today. I
really enjoyed our conversation.
Speaker 4 (39:04):
I did two. Thanks so much, Mike. Well.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
That brings us to the end of today's episode, A
big thank you to Debbie McGee for joining me and
sharing the story behind her moving book, Cautiously Pessimistic. It's
an honest, heartfelt look at caregiving, grief, and the importance
of family and community. You can pick up a copy
of Consciously Pessimistic at Breakwater Books or wherever books are found. Well,
that's our show this week. I'm your host, doctor Mike Wall.
(39:27):
We'll see you back here next time on the Well
and Snelty Lifestyle Show on the Stingray podcast Network. In
your vocm
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