April 10, 2026 • 10 mins
Author & Columnist Gordon Chang joins Joe Getty to explain why China won't (and can't) take advantage of the War with Iran to gain an advantage over The United States.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
We also heard from the Chinese a spokesperson who said
that military means cannot fundamentally solve this problem and that
the escalation of the conflict is not in the interest
of either side.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The root cause of.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
The Strait of Humu's blockage, they said, is the illegal
military operation in Iran. So this is the strongest we've
heard from the Chinese as well.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Whenever we're talking about China, we always want to know
what Gordon Chang has to say. Gordon is an author
and columnist. He is clear eyed, he is direct and
knows what he's talking about. Also, for folks who live
in the area of our flagship station in the Capital
of cal Unicornia, Gordon Chang's going to be appearing at
the Capital Lincoln Club's inaugural Freedom Awards dinner on May
(00:45):
the second at the Sutter Club. Get info online at
Capitol Lincoln Club dot com. We'll have a link at
Armstrong and Giddy dot com. I would love to be
their sounds great, Gordon Chang, welcome, how are.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
You, I'm fine, thank you, and thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Oh, it's our pleasure. I was just touting your upcoming
appearance Sacramento. So we've covered that, and we'll have a
link at our website so people can get more information easily.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
But we played a clip on the way back.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
That mentioned the Chinese made comments about the war and
the Gulf and what was going on there.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Why don't we start there? What do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
What lessons do you think the Chinese leadership are taking
from what they're seeing unfold right now?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
They're seeing that President Trump is determined that he is
willing to use force, and they believe that they can
back him down. I'm not sure that they're convinced of
the last one, but they're certainly trying to do that.
We now have that ceasepire. The Iranians violated the ceasefire
from the get go, and I guess we're going to
see if President Trump imposes cross on Tehran for doing that.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Now, every time the wind changes direction, somebody brings up
we'll China take advantage of this to move on Taiwan.
How concerned are you about that in the near term
and how do you see that situation in general?
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Yeah, I don't see the Chinese taking advantage of the
situation there, clearly is one. We've been moving military assets
out of East Asia, especially South Korea. But unfortunately for c. Jmping,
he has decimated the top of the Chinese military with
his purges, which means that they are not capable of
starting hostilities by launching an invasion on the main island
(02:21):
of Taiwan. Now China can blunder into a war elsewhere.
They're engaged in very provocative activities in the South China Sea,
for instance. So the risk of war is still high.
But the risk that people think about all the time,
which is the one you mentioned, is I think off
the table because of siegm Thing's purges.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Do you think she and his leadership are looking at
the straits of Warmus and thinking so extracting a toll
or blackmailing the world through closing shipping lanes is on
the table now.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Oh, certainly, because Iran has been charging tolls. It's been
blocking shipping since Tuesday the announcement of the ceasefire, and
basically Iran is helping China by dedollarizing the world by
requiring the toll be paid in China's currency. The REMMD,
so Iran is trying it on. If the United States
(03:17):
has had any consistent foreign policy over the course of
two hundred and fifty years it's been keeping the global
commons open. China and Iran are challenging that. And we're
going to see if President Trump opens the straight. President
Trump has the power to do it. We can even
do it without putting boots on the ground. We can
do that, for instance, by closing the straight to all
(03:38):
shipping that has paid the toll. That would force the
Iranians to stop the toll. But we're going to see
if President Trump will do that.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Hey, let's get rewind real quickly. It flitted out of
my mind. I'd meant to follow up. You talked about
the purge of the top generals in the Chinese Communist military.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
What was that all about? Help us understand that dynamic.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah, this is one of the most important things that
have gone on in the world. And basically Sijinping, through
his corruption purgase, has removed a lot of officers. Now
some of those officers have been engaged in removing Sigeanping's
loyalist from the top of the top of the military.
From all we can see, which means that there is
all out fighting among the generals and admirals. There's a
(04:21):
lot we don't know because of the regime has become
even more opaque over the last three or four years,
but we are seeing signs that show turmoil at the
top of the People's Liberation Army.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
We're talking to author and commentator Gordon Chang. Gordon, I
saw a piece in the journal today that bothered me.
Trump quietly scraps his own playbook on China. The White
House walks back the aggressive approach of the first administration
Trump won, which I praised heartily for helping the American
people understand that, no, China's not our buddy, They're our adversary.
(04:55):
Have you been watching that and what do you make
of it? More conciliatory approach.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
You know, President Trump wants this meetings that is now
scheduled for May fourteenth. The White House announced it, but
China hasn't announced it, and that's making President Trump look
a little bit needing, which is not a good look
for the United States because that means it makes it
much harder for him to accomplish what he wants with China. Sometimes,
(05:21):
you know, for decades, and this goes back to the
Nixon era, we have chased the Chinese for dialogue and
that has inflated their already big sense of self importance.
So I think the way we get things from China
is we stop talking to them and we make them
chase us for once. If we do that, then we
(05:42):
are able to use our leverage. But if we appear
desperate to talk to China, China will certainly use that
against us. Well.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Right, they're absolutely relentless and remorseless and exploiting any weakness.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Correct, correct, And they have seen even strong young American
presidents back week towards China. We have done that to
be generous, to be indulgent, to try to integrate the
Chinese into the international assistant, to try to entice them.
But although that sounds like it should work, it hasn't worked.
So we've got to pivot and try something that might work.
(06:18):
What might work may not work, but at least it
has a chance of working. What we're doing right now
has no chance of success.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Wow, that is so interesting and troubling, and I hope
they figure that out quickly. So one of the recurring
themes of the show, whether today or in general, Gordon,
is that it makes me insane when the media reports,
you know, the day to day. You know, the occurrence
is the happenings around the world, but they completely missed
(06:48):
the big picture. When you think about the big picture
with US China relations, what do you think is left
out of the discussion?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Usually? What do people not understand about China?
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Well, the most important thing which sometimes gets discussed is
that President Trump is going after China's proxies. China doesn't
want to take on the world directly, So what President
Trump has been doing is going after Venezuela, going after Cuba,
now going after Iran, and China is basically losing its pauts.
(07:20):
So this is really good for us. The other big
story that people don't talk about is that because China
has turned its back on consumption as the basis of
the Chinese economy, the only way China can grow is
to export more. Jon Ping by disrupting the world through
various stratagems, is basically deglobalizing the world. He's making trade
(07:44):
more difficult. And I think that ultimately Sijan thing is
working against his own economy. He works against his own economy,
that economy will fail, and if that fails, the political
system will be in deep trouble.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Interesting, so, and I appreciate you're talking about the actions
against China's proxies, and you're absolutely right. So am I
just wrong in believing that the approach is more conciliatory
or is it, you know, just choosing different avenues to
exert pressure.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
It's choosing different areas to exert pressure. And Trump is
messing with the Chinese. On the one hand, when you
look at the substance of his policies, they're mostly really good.
But when you look at the rhetoric, it isn't good.
And so there is the Chinese must be totally confused
by Trump because there's only one person in the world
(08:36):
who knows what Trump is doing, and that is our
president himself.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Right right.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
And this is the sort of commentary Gordon, you just
don't get elsewhere, which is why it's a pleasure to
talk to you.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So final question.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Your first book, if I'm correct, was The Coming Collapse
of China, which he wrote in two thousand and one.
Maybe you could explain very briefly the premise of the book,
But how is aging? What has changed? What are your
thoughts on the longer term trajectory of China right now?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
In that book, I said the Commentist Party would fail
within ten years.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I was wrong.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
What happened is the two thousand and eight downturn, which
gave a lot of confidence and strength of the regime,
but they overstimulated their economy. They now basically having their
two thousand and eight dead crisis while their economy is
really deteriorating fast. So China's right now at a very
fragile point, and President Trump can exploit that if he
(09:31):
chooses to do so.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Okay, interesting, Interesting.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Gordon chang Is upcoming appearance in Sacramento again is at
the Sutter Club on May the second, and we'll have
all the info readily available at armstrong in getty dot com.
Gordon is always stimulating. Thanks for the time, Let's do
it again soon.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
No, well, thank you, I really appreciate it. And stay safe.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Thanks thanks indeed,
We also heard from the Chinese a spokesperson who said
that military means cannot fundamentally solve this problem and that
the escalation of the conflict is not in the interest
of either side.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The root cause of.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
The Strait of Humu's blockage, they said, is the illegal
military operation in Iran. So this is the strongest we've
heard from the Chinese as well.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
Whenever we're talking about China, we always want to know
what Gordon Chang has to say. Gordon is an author
and columnist. He is clear eyed, he is direct and
knows what he's talking about. Also, for folks who live
in the area of our flagship station in the Capital
of cal Unicornia, Gordon Chang's going to be appearing at
the Capital Lincoln Club's inaugural Freedom Awards dinner on May
(00:45):
the second at the Sutter Club. Get info online at
Capitol Lincoln Club dot com. We'll have a link at
Armstrong and Giddy dot com. I would love to be
their sounds great, Gordon Chang, welcome, how are.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
You, I'm fine, thank you, and thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Oh, it's our pleasure. I was just touting your upcoming
appearance Sacramento. So we've covered that, and we'll have a
link at our website so people can get more information easily.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
But we played a clip on the way back.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
That mentioned the Chinese made comments about the war and
the Gulf and what was going on there.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Why don't we start there? What do you think?
Speaker 3 (01:13):
What lessons do you think the Chinese leadership are taking
from what they're seeing unfold right now?
Speaker 4 (01:20):
They're seeing that President Trump is determined that he is
willing to use force, and they believe that they can
back him down. I'm not sure that they're convinced of
the last one, but they're certainly trying to do that.
We now have that ceasepire. The Iranians violated the ceasefire
from the get go, and I guess we're going to
see if President Trump imposes cross on Tehran for doing that.
Speaker 3 (01:44):
Now, every time the wind changes direction, somebody brings up
we'll China take advantage of this to move on Taiwan.
How concerned are you about that in the near term
and how do you see that situation in general?
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Yeah, I don't see the Chinese taking advantage of the
situation there, clearly is one. We've been moving military assets
out of East Asia, especially South Korea. But unfortunately for c. Jmping,
he has decimated the top of the Chinese military with
his purges, which means that they are not capable of
starting hostilities by launching an invasion on the main island
(02:21):
of Taiwan. Now China can blunder into a war elsewhere.
They're engaged in very provocative activities in the South China Sea,
for instance. So the risk of war is still high.
But the risk that people think about all the time,
which is the one you mentioned, is I think off
the table because of siegm Thing's purges.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Do you think she and his leadership are looking at
the straits of Warmus and thinking so extracting a toll
or blackmailing the world through closing shipping lanes is on
the table now.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
Oh, certainly, because Iran has been charging tolls. It's been
blocking shipping since Tuesday the announcement of the ceasefire, and
basically Iran is helping China by dedollarizing the world by
requiring the toll be paid in China's currency. The REMMD,
so Iran is trying it on. If the United States
(03:17):
has had any consistent foreign policy over the course of
two hundred and fifty years it's been keeping the global
commons open. China and Iran are challenging that. And we're
going to see if President Trump opens the straight. President
Trump has the power to do it. We can even
do it without putting boots on the ground. We can
do that, for instance, by closing the straight to all
(03:38):
shipping that has paid the toll. That would force the
Iranians to stop the toll. But we're going to see
if President Trump will do that.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Hey, let's get rewind real quickly. It flitted out of
my mind. I'd meant to follow up. You talked about
the purge of the top generals in the Chinese Communist military.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
What was that all about? Help us understand that dynamic.
Speaker 4 (03:58):
Yeah, this is one of the most important things that
have gone on in the world. And basically Sijinping, through
his corruption purgase, has removed a lot of officers. Now
some of those officers have been engaged in removing Sigeanping's
loyalist from the top of the top of the military.
From all we can see, which means that there is
all out fighting among the generals and admirals. There's a
(04:21):
lot we don't know because of the regime has become
even more opaque over the last three or four years,
but we are seeing signs that show turmoil at the
top of the People's Liberation Army.
Speaker 3 (04:32):
We're talking to author and commentator Gordon Chang. Gordon, I
saw a piece in the journal today that bothered me.
Trump quietly scraps his own playbook on China. The White
House walks back the aggressive approach of the first administration
Trump won, which I praised heartily for helping the American
people understand that, no, China's not our buddy, They're our adversary.
(04:55):
Have you been watching that and what do you make
of it? More conciliatory approach.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
You know, President Trump wants this meetings that is now
scheduled for May fourteenth. The White House announced it, but
China hasn't announced it, and that's making President Trump look
a little bit needing, which is not a good look
for the United States because that means it makes it
much harder for him to accomplish what he wants with China. Sometimes,
(05:21):
you know, for decades, and this goes back to the
Nixon era, we have chased the Chinese for dialogue and
that has inflated their already big sense of self importance.
So I think the way we get things from China
is we stop talking to them and we make them
chase us for once. If we do that, then we
(05:42):
are able to use our leverage. But if we appear
desperate to talk to China, China will certainly use that
against us. Well.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Right, they're absolutely relentless and remorseless and exploiting any weakness.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Correct, correct, And they have seen even strong young American
presidents back week towards China. We have done that to
be generous, to be indulgent, to try to integrate the
Chinese into the international assistant, to try to entice them.
But although that sounds like it should work, it hasn't worked.
So we've got to pivot and try something that might work.
(06:18):
What might work may not work, but at least it
has a chance of working. What we're doing right now
has no chance of success.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
Wow, that is so interesting and troubling, and I hope
they figure that out quickly. So one of the recurring
themes of the show, whether today or in general, Gordon,
is that it makes me insane when the media reports,
you know, the day to day. You know, the occurrence
is the happenings around the world, but they completely missed
(06:48):
the big picture. When you think about the big picture
with US China relations, what do you think is left
out of the discussion?
Speaker 2 (06:55):
Usually? What do people not understand about China?
Speaker 4 (06:58):
Well, the most important thing which sometimes gets discussed is
that President Trump is going after China's proxies. China doesn't
want to take on the world directly, So what President
Trump has been doing is going after Venezuela, going after Cuba,
now going after Iran, and China is basically losing its pauts.
(07:20):
So this is really good for us. The other big
story that people don't talk about is that because China
has turned its back on consumption as the basis of
the Chinese economy, the only way China can grow is
to export more. Jon Ping by disrupting the world through
various stratagems, is basically deglobalizing the world. He's making trade
(07:44):
more difficult. And I think that ultimately Sijan thing is
working against his own economy. He works against his own economy,
that economy will fail, and if that fails, the political
system will be in deep trouble.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Interesting, so, and I appreciate you're talking about the actions
against China's proxies, and you're absolutely right. So am I
just wrong in believing that the approach is more conciliatory
or is it, you know, just choosing different avenues to
exert pressure.
Speaker 4 (08:15):
It's choosing different areas to exert pressure. And Trump is
messing with the Chinese. On the one hand, when you
look at the substance of his policies, they're mostly really good.
But when you look at the rhetoric, it isn't good.
And so there is the Chinese must be totally confused
by Trump because there's only one person in the world
(08:36):
who knows what Trump is doing, and that is our
president himself.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
Right right.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
And this is the sort of commentary Gordon, you just
don't get elsewhere, which is why it's a pleasure to
talk to you.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
So final question.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Your first book, if I'm correct, was The Coming Collapse
of China, which he wrote in two thousand and one.
Maybe you could explain very briefly the premise of the book,
But how is aging? What has changed? What are your
thoughts on the longer term trajectory of China right now?
Speaker 4 (09:06):
In that book, I said the Commentist Party would fail
within ten years.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I was wrong.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
What happened is the two thousand and eight downturn, which
gave a lot of confidence and strength of the regime,
but they overstimulated their economy. They now basically having their
two thousand and eight dead crisis while their economy is
really deteriorating fast. So China's right now at a very
fragile point, and President Trump can exploit that if he
(09:31):
chooses to do so.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
Okay, interesting, Interesting.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
Gordon chang Is upcoming appearance in Sacramento again is at
the Sutter Club on May the second, and we'll have
all the info readily available at armstrong in getty dot com.
Gordon is always stimulating. Thanks for the time, Let's do
it again soon.
Speaker 4 (09:50):
No, well, thank you, I really appreciate it. And stay safe.
Speaker 2 (09:53):
Thanks thanks indeed,
Hosts And Creators
Joe Getty
Jack Armstrong
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com