Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
This is Later with Lee Matthews theLee Matthews Podcast. More what you hear
weekday afternoons on the Drive. RickySchlott is a New York based journalist and
political commentator, also a host ofThe Lost Debate podcast and columnist for The
New York Post. It's got anew interesting book out and that's why I
wanted to talk to her today.It's called the Canceling of the American Mind.
(00:29):
Cancel culture undermines trust, destroys institutions, and threatens us all, but
there is a solution. Greetings,Ricky Schlott, good morning, Thanks much
for having me. Well, let'sstart at the origin of the cancel culture,
because it seems to me like itall came upon us at once.
(00:50):
Yes, absolutely, well, webelieve that the roots of cancel culture go
fairly deep in academia, and thereare some early examples here and there,
like, for example, the DixieChicks having some of their shows canceled early
on. But we really believe thatcancel culture started in twenty fourteen in its
current iteration, accelerated in twenty seventeen, and continues until today. And the
(01:11):
reason that we think that it reallyjust exploded in the way that it did
was because social media became popularized atthat point in time, and it became
easier than ever for people and mobsto tear down people, institutions, and
ideas in a way that they neverhave before, in a really unceremonious and
sometimes vicious way. So, inour definition, cancel culture started in twenty
(01:33):
fourteen, and we believe, giventhe upcoming election cycle, will probably rear
its head in a pretty ugly wayin the next year as well. Oh
no doubt, it'll get worse andworse and worse. I think before there's
some sort of pivotal event that makesit get better. Was there a pivotal
event you think that brought it onor was it a gradual onset. Well,
(01:55):
we definitely believe that twenty fourteen waswhen the first seedling started to become
obvious on campus. Is It definitelystarted with young students shouting down processors and
trying to get speeches canceled. However, we think the first real mass events
of cancel culture was in the leadup to the twenty sixteen election. It
was something that I saw myself.I was on a campus at that point
(02:16):
in time, and I think Thenext really major iteration was twenty twenty and
during the all the social unrest inthat period of time, and I think
it's really important to remember. Lookingback, I think for myself, included
in twenty nineteen, I probably wouldhave said, Oh, it feels like
this is all behind us, andyou know, twenty sixteen was a weird
year, and things will get betterand it just will be on our merry
(02:38):
way. But I think every timewe've had any point of cultural discomfort in
this country, we've really seen apattern of cancel culture and a liberalism really
flare up in an ugly way.And so unless we do something to actually
meaningfully stop it and to take careto prevent this from repeating history, then
I think that we're headed down thatexact same route. The Canceling of the
(02:59):
American is the book. Ricky Schlottis one of the authors, along with
Greg Lukinoff, and the subtitleist thecancel Culture Undermining trust, destroys institutions and
threatens us all. But there isa solution, which I'll get to in
just a minute. But just whatI've observed, and I'm going back to
my high school debate, which wasearly eighties we had a debate technique that
(03:23):
was known as the ultimate negative.I'll give you an example. The topic
that year that I was in highschool, debate was arms control. So
your ultimate negative if you were debatingon the negative side of the issue,
was nuclear war, because who couldargue against nuclear war? I mean,
you immediately went to the ultimate negativeto try to win the debate by going
(03:45):
to the ultimate negative. That seemsto be what the cancel culture is trying
to do. Yeah, we thinkthat cancel culture. That's a great point,
and we believe that cancel culture isa way to win arguments without actually
winning argument because it allows you toattack people with the most extreme misappropriations of
what they said, or the leastcharitable interpretations, or even worse yet,
(04:10):
to go after them for their immutablecharacteristics and to say, well, you
know, you might think that,but you're a sixth gender white male,
and so that doesn't matter. Andso it's a really great way to tear
people down, to look as thoughyou've won. But then we never get
any closer to the truth, orwe never get any closer to common ground.
And so that's why we think thisis really creating a devastation of interpersonal
(04:30):
trust, but also our shared bodyof knowledge, and it's leaving us even
more polarized in our own little bubbles. And so I think you're completely right,
because it's going to the worst casescenario, looking at people in the
least charitable possible way and just missingthem on that ground. I mean,
look at the go Green movement.We got to go green or all we're
going to die of global warming.And then you can harken back to the
(04:55):
origins of the United States during theWitch Trials. I mean, a lot
of the same thing was going onon them sociologically, I contend, yeah,
absolutely. I mean I think thatone thing that's very important to remember
is that we actually should not betaking for granted the fact that we live
in a country that does have freespeech rates guaranteed on the books, that
(05:15):
is classically liberal, because this isso rare in this scheme of human history.
Because to your point, mankind's inclinationis disensor. It's much easier to
shoot down your opponents or to insulateyourself from different viewpoints. And we're so
fortunate to live in just the fewcenturies post Enlightenment and in a society that
actually values debate and dialogue and disagreement, and if we become complacent, I
(05:40):
think that we'll slip back down tothat censorious tendency, which is what I
fear we're doing in the part ofcancel culture right now talking to Ricky Schlotz
along with her corroborator Greg Lukian Offthe canceling of the American mind. Cancel
culture undervines trust, destroys institution,and threatens us all. But there is
a solution, and you alluded toit right then and there. One of
(06:00):
them, I imagine, is torealize we live in a society where you're
guaranteed a right to say what's onyour mind. Absolutely. I mean,
we have a whole host of recommendationsfrom the way that we parent to reforms
that K to twelve education to makeFor example, like you mentioned your debate
club, that's something that really hasgone to the wayside in the past couple
decades, and we think that needsto come back. Yeah, people need
(06:23):
to learn how to engage with disagreementand put themselves in their own opinions aside
and actually look at logical arguments.We also have chapters about higher education,
how to keep your corporation out ofthe culture war. But as you said,
I think the most important thing isthat we need to supplant cancel culture
and put in its place a freespeech culture, which is what Greg and
(06:44):
I advocate for, because we've reallybecome complacent. And I can say,
as my co author's gen X,I'm far younger than he and I'm twenty
three years old, and he wasraised with these idioms that were very important
to just the fundamental tenets of Americansociety, like to each their own everyone's
entitled to their own opinion, liveand let live. And that was not
a suite of lessons that I wastaught. And I think that in this
(07:08):
country we need to get back tothose very core values and to all buy
in because eighty two percent of Americansthink that political correctness has gone too far.
So why are we letting the verysmall vocal minority of people who like
to cancel people and police their speechwins Ricky Schlott. The canceling of the
American mind, canceled culture undermines trustand threatens us all. But there is
(07:30):
a solution. I'm glad you broughtthat up, because you know, one
of the things we did back inhigh school debate was you never really knew
going into the debate what you weregoing to debate, rather whether you're going
to debate affirmative or negative. Youdrew it out of a hat. Okay,
I'm debating negative, and you scurriedoff to get all your negative evidence
about the topic and so that youcould or so you immediately had to put
aside your personal feelings to argue andsee the other side of the coin.
(07:57):
Yeah, and I think that that'ssomething that we've completely lost. I mean,
in my own high school experience,there was no debate club offered.
I would also say that there wasgenerally just a phobia of different ideas,
where where there was a genuine,wholehearted belief that words can wound, that
words could be violence, and thatyou need a safe space or trigger warnings
(08:18):
to engage with differing viewpoints. Andthat's just such a mark shift from just
a couple of generations ago. AndI think that's why we've ended up with
a generation of young people who areso afraid of engaging in constructive dialogue,
or who believe that anyone who's onthe quote unquote other side is irredeemable or
(08:39):
not worth talking to. And ifwe continue to live this way, then
I think that we can't continue tolive in a pluralistic and healthy democracy.
I mean, we need to beable to hear each other, we need
to be able to have conversations throughdifference, and cancel culture fundamentally undermines that
on just the most basic level.Ricky Schlott, The Canceling of the American
Mind. The book is out noweverywhere you get books. By the way,
(09:00):
like the cover artwork, you havethe blue field of old glory,
but then the stripes seem to bebroken up, as though the flag is
being broken up and our society isbeing broken up by the cancel culture.
Yeah, thank you, that wasmy choice. I'm very happy with how
the cover came out, and feelvery fortunate to have worked with Greg Lucianoff,
who's a very successful author, whowas kind enough to invite a young
(09:24):
Genzer who's seen it herself with herown eyes into this project. Canceling the
American Mind out everywhere you get books, and Ricky Schlott, I thank you
for writing it and joining us today. Thank you so much. It's been
a pleasure. Thanks for listening toLater with Lee Matthews, The Lee Matthews
Podcast, and remember to listen toThe Drive Live weekday afternoons from five to
(09:46):
seven and iHeartMedia Presentation
This is Later with Lee Matthews theLee Matthews Podcast. More what you hear
weekday afternoons on the Drive. RickySchlott is a New York based journalist and
political commentator, also a host ofThe Lost Debate podcast and columnist for The
New York Post. It's got anew interesting book out and that's why I
wanted to talk to her today.It's called the Canceling of the American Mind.
(00:29):
Cancel culture undermines trust, destroys institutions, and threatens us all, but
there is a solution. Greetings,Ricky Schlott, good morning, Thanks much
for having me. Well, let'sstart at the origin of the cancel culture,
because it seems to me like itall came upon us at once.
(00:50):
Yes, absolutely, well, webelieve that the roots of cancel culture go
fairly deep in academia, and thereare some early examples here and there,
like, for example, the DixieChicks having some of their shows canceled early
on. But we really believe thatcancel culture started in twenty fourteen in its
current iteration, accelerated in twenty seventeen, and continues until today. And the
(01:11):
reason that we think that it reallyjust exploded in the way that it did
was because social media became popularized atthat point in time, and it became
easier than ever for people and mobsto tear down people, institutions, and
ideas in a way that they neverhave before, in a really unceremonious and
sometimes vicious way. So, inour definition, cancel culture started in twenty
(01:33):
fourteen, and we believe, giventhe upcoming election cycle, will probably rear
its head in a pretty ugly wayin the next year as well. Oh
no doubt, it'll get worse andworse and worse. I think before there's
some sort of pivotal event that makesit get better. Was there a pivotal
event you think that brought it onor was it a gradual onset. Well,
(01:55):
we definitely believe that twenty fourteen waswhen the first seedling started to become
obvious on campus. Is It definitelystarted with young students shouting down processors and
trying to get speeches canceled. However, we think the first real mass events
of cancel culture was in the leadup to the twenty sixteen election. It
was something that I saw myself.I was on a campus at that point
(02:16):
in time, and I think Thenext really major iteration was twenty twenty and
during the all the social unrest inthat period of time, and I think
it's really important to remember. Lookingback, I think for myself, included
in twenty nineteen, I probably wouldhave said, Oh, it feels like
this is all behind us, andyou know, twenty sixteen was a weird
year, and things will get betterand it just will be on our merry
(02:38):
way. But I think every timewe've had any point of cultural discomfort in
this country, we've really seen apattern of cancel culture and a liberalism really
flare up in an ugly way.And so unless we do something to actually
meaningfully stop it and to take careto prevent this from repeating history, then
I think that we're headed down thatexact same route. The Canceling of the
(02:59):
American is the book. Ricky Schlottis one of the authors, along with
Greg Lukinoff, and the subtitleist thecancel Culture Undermining trust, destroys institutions and
threatens us all. But there isa solution, which I'll get to in
just a minute. But just whatI've observed, and I'm going back to
my high school debate, which wasearly eighties we had a debate technique that
(03:23):
was known as the ultimate negative.I'll give you an example. The topic
that year that I was in highschool, debate was arms control. So
your ultimate negative if you were debatingon the negative side of the issue,
was nuclear war, because who couldargue against nuclear war? I mean,
you immediately went to the ultimate negativeto try to win the debate by going
(03:45):
to the ultimate negative. That seemsto be what the cancel culture is trying
to do. Yeah, we thinkthat cancel culture. That's a great point,
and we believe that cancel culture isa way to win arguments without actually
winning argument because it allows you toattack people with the most extreme misappropriations of
what they said, or the leastcharitable interpretations, or even worse yet,
(04:10):
to go after them for their immutablecharacteristics and to say, well, you
know, you might think that,but you're a sixth gender white male,
and so that doesn't matter. Andso it's a really great way to tear
people down, to look as thoughyou've won. But then we never get
any closer to the truth, orwe never get any closer to common ground.
And so that's why we think thisis really creating a devastation of interpersonal
(04:30):
trust, but also our shared bodyof knowledge, and it's leaving us even
more polarized in our own little bubbles. And so I think you're completely right,
because it's going to the worst casescenario, looking at people in the
least charitable possible way and just missingthem on that ground. I mean,
look at the go Green movement.We got to go green or all we're
going to die of global warming.And then you can harken back to the
(04:55):
origins of the United States during theWitch Trials. I mean, a lot
of the same thing was going onon them sociologically, I contend, yeah,
absolutely. I mean I think thatone thing that's very important to remember
is that we actually should not betaking for granted the fact that we live
in a country that does have freespeech rates guaranteed on the books, that
(05:15):
is classically liberal, because this isso rare in this scheme of human history.
Because to your point, mankind's inclinationis disensor. It's much easier to
shoot down your opponents or to insulateyourself from different viewpoints. And we're so
fortunate to live in just the fewcenturies post Enlightenment and in a society that
actually values debate and dialogue and disagreement, and if we become complacent, I
(05:40):
think that we'll slip back down tothat censorious tendency, which is what I
fear we're doing in the part ofcancel culture right now talking to Ricky Schlotz
along with her corroborator Greg Lukian Offthe canceling of the American mind. Cancel
culture undervines trust, destroys institution,and threatens us all. But there is
a solution, and you alluded toit right then and there. One of
(06:00):
them, I imagine, is torealize we live in a society where you're
guaranteed a right to say what's onyour mind. Absolutely. I mean,
we have a whole host of recommendationsfrom the way that we parent to reforms
that K to twelve education to makeFor example, like you mentioned your debate
club, that's something that really hasgone to the wayside in the past couple
decades, and we think that needsto come back. Yeah, people need
(06:23):
to learn how to engage with disagreementand put themselves in their own opinions aside
and actually look at logical arguments.We also have chapters about higher education,
how to keep your corporation out ofthe culture war. But as you said,
I think the most important thing isthat we need to supplant cancel culture
and put in its place a freespeech culture, which is what Greg and
(06:44):
I advocate for, because we've reallybecome complacent. And I can say,
as my co author's gen X,I'm far younger than he and I'm twenty
three years old, and he wasraised with these idioms that were very important
to just the fundamental tenets of Americansociety, like to each their own everyone's
entitled to their own opinion, liveand let live. And that was not
a suite of lessons that I wastaught. And I think that in this
(07:08):
country we need to get back tothose very core values and to all buy
in because eighty two percent of Americansthink that political correctness has gone too far.
So why are we letting the verysmall vocal minority of people who like
to cancel people and police their speechwins Ricky Schlott. The canceling of the
American mind, canceled culture undermines trustand threatens us all. But there is
(07:30):
a solution. I'm glad you broughtthat up, because you know, one
of the things we did back inhigh school debate was you never really knew
going into the debate what you weregoing to debate, rather whether you're going
to debate affirmative or negative. Youdrew it out of a hat. Okay,
I'm debating negative, and you scurriedoff to get all your negative evidence
about the topic and so that youcould or so you immediately had to put
aside your personal feelings to argue andsee the other side of the coin.
(07:57):
Yeah, and I think that that'ssomething that we've completely lost. I mean,
in my own high school experience,there was no debate club offered.
I would also say that there wasgenerally just a phobia of different ideas,
where where there was a genuine,wholehearted belief that words can wound, that
words could be violence, and thatyou need a safe space or trigger warnings
(08:18):
to engage with differing viewpoints. Andthat's just such a mark shift from just
a couple of generations ago. AndI think that's why we've ended up with
a generation of young people who areso afraid of engaging in constructive dialogue,
or who believe that anyone who's onthe quote unquote other side is irredeemable or
(08:39):
not worth talking to. And ifwe continue to live this way, then
I think that we can't continue tolive in a pluralistic and healthy democracy.
I mean, we need to beable to hear each other, we need
to be able to have conversations throughdifference, and cancel culture fundamentally undermines that
on just the most basic level.Ricky Schlott, The Canceling of the American
Mind. The book is out noweverywhere you get books. By the way,
(09:00):
like the cover artwork, you havethe blue field of old glory,
but then the stripes seem to bebroken up, as though the flag is
being broken up and our society isbeing broken up by the cancel culture.
Yeah, thank you, that wasmy choice. I'm very happy with how
the cover came out, and feelvery fortunate to have worked with Greg Lucianoff,
who's a very successful author, whowas kind enough to invite a young
(09:24):
Genzer who's seen it herself with herown eyes into this project. Canceling the
American Mind out everywhere you get books, and Ricky Schlott, I thank you
for writing it and joining us today. Thank you so much. It's been
a pleasure. Thanks for listening toLater with Lee Matthews, The Lee Matthews
Podcast, and remember to listen toThe Drive Live weekday afternoons from five to
(09:46):
seven and iHeartMedia Presentation
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!