A listener wants to know how to truly forget a wrong that was done to them, not just forgive, but actually move on. Amy & Kat dig into what forgiveness really means and why "forgive and forget" might be setting us up for the wrong expectation. Then, a heartbreaking email from Alixe in DC who has been seeing the same therapist for nearly six years, lost her grandmother unexpectedly, and her therapist simply stopped responding. Her cat has since been diagnosed with cancer and she is left wondering whether to reach out one more time or start over entirely. Amy & Kat weigh in, and Kat offers her perspective as a therapist. Plus, a wedding email that ended up in the wrong inbox…Congratulations Jessica and Mark!
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HOSTS:
Amy Brown // RadioAmy.com // @RadioAmy
Kat Van Buren // threecordstherapy.com // @KatVanburen
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
While we hope Couch Talks can be a tool that
helps and supports wherever you are in life, Couch Talks
does not serve as a replacement or substitute for therapy
or any mental health services.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
A right break it down. If you ever have feelings
that you just fonsome Amy and Cat gotcha covin locking
a brother, Ladies and felas, do you just follow Anna
spirit where it's all phone or real stuff to the
chill stuff and m but Swayne. Sometimes the best thing
you can do it jes stop you feel things. This
(00:35):
is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Happy Thursday.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Welcome to Couch Talks, our Q and a episode to
the Feeling Things Podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I'm Amy and I'm Kat.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
And our first email drummer all is anonymous. Oh, I'll
just get straight into it.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hey, Amy and Kat.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
I've been listening to you both from the start, and
I love that you have come together for feeling things.
I love your banter and relationship and I laugh every
time I listen to you. Guys, Cat, congratulations on baby Girl.
It's the most exciting adventure you'll embark on, but also
it's the hardest job you'll ever love.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I think the way they did that there, it's cute.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
The hardest job you'll ever love.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Full disclosure, I'm behind on the podcast, so if anything
like my question has been discussed, disregard, I would like
to stay anonymous. But my main question is this, if
you feel like you have been wronged, how do you
forget about the wrongdoing? People say forgive and forget, and
I know that at some point I will feel better
after I forgive, but how do I forget about the
(01:35):
whole thing? And then I will say this person went
on to summarize their experience and everything that happened to them.
They did not want that part shared at all, and
cat read it. It was like I put some stuff
in our Google doc that we have about this about forgiveness,
and you know that would be more so for yourself,
(01:55):
not for them, and then cat typed.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I don't know if I can forget anybody for anything,
but if they did.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
That, and I thought, okay, well, this is good that
we've got some different perspectives on forgiveness. But I do
see your points, So why don't you go ahead and
talk about what your thoughts were after that? And anybody
else can relate? Obviously, not to the exact situations, were
not sharing that, but maybe in their heart having to
wrestle with having to or feeling the desire or what
(02:27):
to do with all these feelings. When you want to
forgive but you also want to forget, but you can't
seem to do either, what do you do?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Well?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I think that this situation. I'm not going to share
anything about the situation other than she did say at
the end, because my thought was, why would you want
to forgive and forget? This? A lot of times when
people do things that are very hurtful or harmful to us,
it's healthy to remember, so we don't put ourselves in
that situation again. And whatever version of forgiveness there is,
(02:56):
and I have a whole spiel on forced forgiveness that
I'll of go through. You can offer that for yourself,
and we don't always need to forget what has happened. However,
she did set she gave some reasons of why she
wants to and it's because these aren't people she can
just well she could, but she doesn't want to cut
(03:17):
these people out of her life. They're they're going they're
going to be intertwined for whatever reasons. And so I
do get her not wanting things to be awkward for herself. However,
can't totally get rid of the awkwardness or just the
tension completely, but you can diminish it lesson lesson, Yeah,
(03:41):
by working through some stuff internally. They don't ever have
to know. I think that's another thing to remember when
we're looking at like forgiveness and all that. The other
person doesn't necessarily always have to know that you forgive them,
because oftentimes you're doing that. So, especially in this situation,
she's doing that so she can move on. So there's
(04:01):
this thing I like to call force forgiveness, and that
is what happens when we take this kind of rhetoric
or just I think it's how people generally, especially in
faith based communities talk about forgiveness, says, you know, everybody
deserves it, Love thy neighbor, move on it, be the
bigger person, all this stuff. But the problem is you
(04:25):
can't just like snap your fingers and be like, I
forgive them, even if you think that per my belief
system or per whatever, it's the right thing to do,
you can't. That's like telling yourself you have to change
your feelings. You can't actually just change your feelings. There's
another option that I don't think is talked about as much,
and that is offering some compassion without forgiveness.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
So well, if forgiveness can still come, it just may
not come immediately at that time. Yeah, and it maybe
it doesn't ever come. But I think just leaving that
door open is good, but not this feeling of like, oh,
I need to forget right away because I've been forgiven,
or yes, because you may need more time to process.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, And that also can feel when that it's kind
of pushed on you. It feels like I don't have
a choice. And this I think what you're saying is
leaving the door open but not being forced to do
it right now gives you some agency versus I have
to do this, and then it's not as authentic either,
you know.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Yeah, because you need time to process. You can't just
out of the gate be like, oh, okay, yeah, this
is fine, I forgive you. You may say I want
to forgive you, and my goal is to get there,
but I might take some time, and forgiveness for me
doesn't equal reconciliation.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think other thing that's important in
this situation. I'm pretty sure the other party never apologized,
so that's not even a thing. So she's asking, how
do I forgive and forget without even somebody acknowledging that
we were hurt or harmed. She's in a tough situation, like,
so this is like one of the toughest situations you
(06:03):
can be kind of put in that regard. So I
like to think about offering compassion, another word you could
use as like some kind of understanding, versus forgiving and
kind of washing that away. Neither of these things include forgetting.
And I do think things with time don't feel as hot,
(06:25):
but I wouldn't. I would urge this person like you
don't forget it, because you also need to have boundaries
with this person. And if you forget this ever happened,
you could put yourself in that same situation. That does
not mean that every time I'm seeing this person, I'm
picturing myself poking their eyes out or something like that.
So an example of compassion without forgiveness would be like
(06:48):
if and I actually I should give credit to this.
I learned about this specific language with this from the
book Maybe you Should talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb,
and she actually used I'll use the example she used,
she's an example of a dad that had abandoned his son.
I think or just wasn't present, or he might have
(07:08):
had addiction issues or something like that. But he wasn't present,
and he was not a good father. And on his
deathbed he acknowledged that to his son finally and was like,
you know what, I'm sorry. I didn't give you what
you needed. I was not the father that you deserved,
on and on and on, and the son just looked
at him and said thank you. He didn't say I
(07:30):
forgive you. He didn't say I forget that, don't worry
about it. And I think a lot of times when
people do apologize, we feel this pressure to be like, yoh,
it's okay. But when somebody apologizes, it's okay for you
just to be like, well, thank you, I really appreciate you,
acknowledging that that does not mean that you in that
moment then have to forgive them. Like you said, it
(07:51):
might come with time, it might never come, but if
I can offer compassion and see, okay, my dad also
was hand handed a kind of bad deal, like a
bad hand of cards, or my dad did the best
he could, but it wasn't enough. Then I don't have
to forgive him for that. I can understand and offer
(08:11):
him compassion that he was doing the best he could.
It just wasn't enough for me. So I don't know
if that's something that would help this person in this
situation because of some of the details. I wouldn't say
that this guy was doing the best that he could
and he didn't apologize from what I remember. But I
think also just looking at people as imperfect people and saying,
(08:36):
you know what, he's imperfect. He has his things. We
all have his things. He's a human. I might not
forgive him, but I can see him as that.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
So when you say someone is choosing not to forgive,
are they then I don't. And I don't know if
it's some of it's just how I grew up and
it is part of my faith, but I have a
hard time wrapping my head around like if you can
have that compassion and you can get there and see
where they're coming from and still acknowledge your feelings, then
(09:09):
just short of saying the words like okay, I think
I could forget, I'm forgiving this person or is it
just because someone really may not want to get to
that point or are they still harboring like really negative
feelings and thoughts of like, oh I hate this person
and what they did to me.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Well, it could be both to bet on the person.
But when I think about this, and I think there's
people in my life that I I mean, in time,
I think some things have changed and things have not
been as important to me. But in the moment I
did not forgive them, but I was able to move on.
I still have those feelings of hurt sometimes it's anger,
so whatever it is, But I also I am not
(09:50):
sitting there being like you're the devil, right or I
wish bad things on it.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
But it's not And it's also not consuming you and
ruminating in your mind because for me, that's what forgets
has offered of like this piece of like also too,
I know when I mess up like I want to,
I would like the opportunity to be forgiven if I'm
asking for that, or even if I'm not, if someone
(10:15):
needs to forgive me something that I don't even know
that I did, which I'm sure has happened, because I
know there's times I've hurt people that I probably am
not aware of that they probably would have liked for
me to acknowledge I do have a lot of that,
like I want to do that because I want to forgive,
because I would like to be forgiven, and I don't know,
(10:36):
but that also this is.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
A different strokes for different folks kind of situation. If
forgiveness and all of that work, if that language and
that way of thinking things and that way of working
through things works for you, then don't mess with it.
I like to talk about the force forgiveness because I
think a lot of people are pushed into that and
it doesn't actually feel authentic to them, and then there's
(10:58):
a different kind of resentment built, or you lose yourself
in some of that right and you don't get to
stand up for yourself. Whereas some moments where I feel
like I have not forgiven somebody in the moment, but
I've been able to offer compassion is a way for
me to saying like that, for me to say this
is not okay, and I'm not abolishing you of what
you've done, and that feels like it's standing up for
(11:20):
myself feel like versus I feel like a lot of
people that are taught you must forgive or told they
must forgive for you to be a good person or
for you to have peace. It doesn't feel I think
the word that keeps coming to me is like that
they have agency over their feelings or protecting themselves or
(11:41):
standing up for themselves. So if you feel fine forgiving
somebody and it feels good and it helps you move on,
don't mess with that. But if you've been in moments
where you're like and why I brought this up with
this person is because she wants to be to move
forward with some of these people. But we don't always
(12:04):
have to forgive and forget to move forward. I can
move forward with boundaries, with remembering, with not saying it's okay,
I can still move forward. And sometimes when we do
that too, when we want to forgive and forget, it's
not for us. It's so the other person doesn't feel uncomfortable,
and like you can feel uncomfor I want you to
(12:26):
feel uncomfortable if you've done something that crazy, like you
should feeluncomfortable and you're around me because you should. There
should be guilt there this person. I don't think the
person felt guilt that she was talking about. And so
just make sure you're doing this for you versus so
the other people don't feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
Like when you have to create even boundaries, like with
people that still might be in your life.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Like you mentioned earlier, some of the stuff is invisible.
It's stuff.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
It can be stuff you work through. It's not like
you have to announce to them. I now have a
boundary with you. You can work on creating your own
invisible boundaries and then just implement those as you see fit,
Like I have people close to me that were just
in a situation recently where they had to keep their
(13:16):
invisible boundaries intact, but then also a tiny line was crossed.
It wasn't crazy, but they stood up for themselves, and
I was really proud of them when they told me, oh, man,
this is a story. I wish I could tell you,
but I can't, but I will say I was proud
of how they handled it. And some of you might
be in a similar situation where your invisible boundary gets
(13:37):
crossed and then you may have to speak up. Invisible
boundaries are harder to keep than once where you have
to verbally declare them. But this person in my life
spoke up and spoke up firmly and directly, and I
was really, really proud of them, and that might be
something that you even practiced doing, because I was thinking
(14:00):
about if I was in the situation of the person
close to me and how they reacted and how perfect
it was. I was thinking, Oh, I wonder if they
did a little dress rehearsal, like a little run through
of different scenarios that might happen, and like, what's going
to be your response, Because if it's people that are
still in your life, at some point, you may be
(14:21):
put in a situation and you don't want to be
caught off guard or you don't want to be vulnerable,
and then you don't want to let them cross the
line because then it's like, oh, well I already let
you know.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
So maybe a little role.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Play, whether that's with yourself or with a friend or.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Out loud walking around talking to yourself in public practice
on strangers.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Nobody will think anything of it, y'all, like totally know.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
All and it will be fine.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
I think for me, it's the I don't I like
to For me, the forgiveness part works, like that is
something that works for me and that help, and I'm
not I may not forget, like with with my dad,
my sister and I were talking about when we were
kids and he left us for another woman, and how
(15:05):
way later in life, decades later, he circled back of
like I had my priorities wrong. And my sister and
I were just talking about it last week in Colorado
because I read that book Strangers, and I'm not giving
away anything in the book, like the premise of the book,
as the husband leaves their family and the way he
(15:26):
did it was very reminiscent of.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
What my dad did.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
And I was telling my sister about how when I
was reading that chapter, I was picturing us because it
was their's happened during COVID, so he had a mascot,
and I feel like that's like the only thing that
was different is they were having to keep their distance
and he had a mascot and it was whereas mine
was nineteen ninety no masks.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
But I felt for those little girls and what their
dad was telling them, and then why their dad left
and how he just left all of his responsibilities and
it was all in the mom and I'm like, our
dad did that, And I don't think I think about
that enough that like literally there was no custody, no.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
No, I want the kids on the weekends. No, you
know right now, I co parent fifty to fifty and
it's like there's no fun. We got no there was
like you can have the kids, you can have the house.
And if you remember that in the book, yeah, he's like,
I'm done. This isn't the life I want. You can
have the kids, you can have the house. Now he
supported financially and then like hung out with his kids
(16:31):
here and there. And I feel like that's how my
dad was. However, I do have compassion for my dad,
and I think my dad was overall a good person.
My daughter got a tattoo that says, and I'm paraphrasing that,
it says like every good story has a few bad chapters.
(16:52):
And that was something that came up, like when my
sister and I were talking, my daughter was with her
tattoo and she read that and they were like, oh
my gosh, that is so true. And it made us
think of our dad of how he had overall was
known to be a really good caring person, but to
(17:13):
like his kids and his wives, because there were four wives,
It's like, oh, but.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Was he really that?
Speaker 4 (17:20):
He just did he made some poor choices, He had
his priorities out of whack. But you know, when he
hit his seventies, he started thinking about the kind of
life he wanted to live and how he had lived it,
and he had some regret and it was too late.
But I think it's when I think about my half brother,
(17:41):
my half sister, my sister, and I in the kind
of relationship we had with our dad.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Even though he handled leaving my half.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Brother and half sister that way, like they got adopted
by their new stepdad and my dad let them like
they have a different last thing.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
He did that first.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
He did that first because they're older.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
And I can't imagine if like right now and we're
to get remarried and be like, hey, my new wife
wants to adopt the kids.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Are you cool with that? I'd be like, no, we good.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
We have a good fight for that. You absolutely And
you wouldn't just say we're good. You'd be like, are
you freaking kidding me?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Like we're good the way we are.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
We're not changing it, like there's no need for that.
But my dad was sort of like, Okay, y'a'll pump
responsibility to him.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, like go for it.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
And the way my half sister and half brother are
still loved my dad. Like we were all there when
we unplugged him. He was on life support. All four
of us were there together, and it's like what he
would have wanted was his four kids, like he loved us,
and it's like somehow we still felt his love even
though we all have this.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Deep wound of abandonment because of him.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Well he did abandon me.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh so anyway I forgive him. Yeah,
it's yeah, it's not something I guess it's black and
white and this is a simple thing.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I just want this person that wrote in to know,
and for everybody to know you have options, like you
have options, and think about like what each option would
give you and why you're feeling called to each option
before you're like I must do this or I must
do that. You can still have a cordial relationship with
somebody without saying to them. And sometimes it's the language.
(19:40):
Sometimes this the word forgiveness or any of that just
has it can put a bad taste in somebody's mouth
because of how they were raised or whatever. So if
it doesn't, again, don't worry about it. It sounds like
for you it that's exactly what you needed.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Well, and I think it's part of my faith. I've
had time, yes, and I've had time.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
So okay, moving on now. This is about abandonment a
little bit kind of but is it?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Have they been ditched?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
This is about abandonment, but not by a parent. About
this is by somebody you would you would think it
would be there for you because you're well. You think
your parents would be too.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
But this person you're paying. Hey, Amy and Kat.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I was hoping you guys could help me think through
a therapy dilemma I'm having. I've been seeing the same
therapist every week for almost six years. I actually didn't
realize that wasn't common until Kat mentioned that some therapists
don't see clients long term. I have anxiety, OCD, ADHD,
et cetera. And she's been incredible for me. She's helped
me build coping skills to the point where I don't
have to rely on medication, and I genuinely love working
(20:51):
with her. About a month ago, I skipped a week
because work was going to be busy. During that break,
my grandma, who played a huge part in races me
and who I talked to every single day, passed away unexpectedly.
I was really struggling, so I emailed my therapist asking
if she had any availability sooner than our already scheduled appointment.
She didn't, but she sent me some grief resources that.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Honestly helped a lot.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
So I figured i'd see her at our virtual appointment
the following Monday. Except she never showed up. In almost
six years, that's never happened. I assumed it was just
a scheduling mix up because we'd had the unusual week off,
so I emailed her. When I didn't hear back, I
followed up a few days later because I was genuinely worried.
She apologized and said that she wasn't feeling well and
(21:38):
would let me know her availability. I wished her well
and figured that explained everything. Later that same night, she
replied to my original email and offered to meet me
the next day. I wasn't available, so I asked about
a couple of other days the following week, and I
never heard back.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
That was over two weeks ago since my last therapy session.
My grandma has died and my kat has been diagnosed
with cancer and is now scheduled for a toe amputation.
My partner thinks I.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Should start looking for another therapist, but that feels so
overwhelming when I already have so much going on, Starting
over with someone new feels like the last thing I
need right now. The hardest part is that this is
so unlike her. She's always been incredibly professional, which honestly
makes me wonder if something serious is going on in
her own life. At the same time, I'm scared to
email her again because I don't know if I'm more
(22:27):
afraid of finding out something happened to her or finding
out nothing happened and feeling rejected. So my questions are,
is it time to move on and find another therapist?
Should I email her one more time?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Kat?
Speaker 4 (22:39):
If you were the therapist in this situation, what would
you want your client to do? Thank you both for
always giving my brain a break and bringing me so
much joy to my life. Have the day you need
to have, Alex from DC thirty two PS. My grandma
recently told me that when she had her five kids
throughout the fifties and sixties, they just knocked her out
for childbirth, didn't feel or remember a thing. It was
(23:02):
the first time I'd ever heard of that, too, crazy,
So she's referring to the Twilight births that we were
talking about last week or the week before. Now, as
for the therapy questions, cat al punt to you, since
you're the therapist and like, would you just start ghosting
a client ever?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Would you just be up front?
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Or also, yeah, did she sinkes you think of your friend?
Remember that that that friend of yours that thought she
was stood up by a date but he died.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yes, he has a struggle or something.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Now, something with his heart. Oh yeah, well he was young,
it was he was in his thirties. Yes, Like you
think that's a joke when you're like, did he die?
Like that might not, but he actually did.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
When I read that part, I was thinking of your
friend and she thought until she found out that he
had died, she straight up thought he stood her up.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yes, and she was mad, rightfully, So right, I don't
think this therapist is dead though. No. Here's the thing.
If I die, there is a protocol for somebody to
notify my clients.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Ooh, you want me to what's the process? Do you
hire a company?
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Usually it's going to be another person, probably working in
the field, but I guess it could be you. You
just have to have like a what's an actual agreement.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
What what's your plan?
Speaker 1 (24:21):
My plan is to have somebody a colleague, email all
my clients, but you have to have like written consent
for them to actually access certain records so they know
who your clients are so they could let them know.
And also you would want them to like give resources too.
So you probably wouldn't be the best person to do
that because I don't know that you would have the
recommendations and resources to give these people.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
We're going to outlive me, so that's fine.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well, you never know what could happen.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
You're younger than me. We're gonna die of old age.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
We're both gonna die at.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Old a three and all die first because I'm old.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I like that plan. So her question
is mostly what would I want my client to do?
Like what should she do?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
One?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
This is odd? I just want her to know that
this is like not normal. I do like that she's
not totally jumping to conclusions. I think my first thought
is like, how could you do that to a client?
But also like maybe something is going on right.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
I mean, it's good she's emailing us and asking. She's
not like showing up at her therapist's place. Like in
the middle of the night, like are you okay? Why
are you not emailing me back?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Like I'm featuring some scene from a show where like
that would happen, of like what why aren't you emailing me?
That I need a session?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So I would email the therapist again and I would say, Hey,
just checking in again, and then I would want to
talk about this in a session because this is going
to leave some lingering feelings, whether or not she has
I mean, your therapist doesn't have to tell you exactly
if something is going on with her. She doesn't have
to tell you exactly what's going on, but it's fair
for you to process some of the feelings that you're
(25:58):
feeling right now about feeling bandoned or ghosted or all
of that, and what you would have needed. I am
the first one to admit sometimes I forget to respond
to an email. So I actually tell most of my
clients in the first session when I explain like how
to communicate with me like versus text, email, phone, call, whatever,
I will say If I ever don't answer, you, please
(26:20):
follow up, because that means that I probably just read
the email and then couldn't respond the moment and then
forgot so please please.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
And ye did get off schedule?
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yes, so I would email her again. I don't think
that that is annoying at all. If that's what you're thinking,
like you don't want to.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Like even seeing her for six years, I think I
would shoot my shot one more time, right, and if
like that, after that, if you don't hear back, then
you show up.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
If if she doesn't answer you after this next email,
what I would suggest actually is like writing an email
about like feeling what your feelings are and sending it
to her. I think that's very fair. Like whether you're
seeing somebody for six years or not, I think it's there.
If they're if the therapist isn't able to give you care.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I would should keep seeing them anyways, well, right, and
there should be some.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Kind of closure, And I think I would leave space
for there's still a world where something has happened where
she is not able to respond and like she's not
just ignoring you, right.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
If normally she doesn't behave this way, this could be
a clue something is going on in her life. Not
only did y'all get off schedule, but who knows in
the last two weeks what could have popped up? For her,
and she's got her head above water, treading trying to
like just get through. So maybe I wouldn't jump ship
and go find a new therapist right away. I get
(27:45):
that your partner is suggesting that, because you probably do
need to talk to someone quickly with all that you
have going on.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
But starting over with someone.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
New would be a lot in this season, So why
would just maybe have a little more patience for this
to sitution situation and then if you get a clear sign,
then you may have to move on.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
When I would if she's not answering you, yeah, you
can find another therapist right now, and then if she
ends up answering in the future, you can, and you
can repair things. You can always go back to her.
But I wouldn't write her off yet.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Yeah, I wouldn't write it off like there's I wouldn't
even have hard feelings. I would just have curiosity. Yes,
like something's clearly up and I've got a lot going on,
and yeah, if you want to start, but starting over
with somebody new is a lot.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, sometimes it can be good. Yeah, maybe a little,
like you've done that a couple of times. Yeah, I
have Yeah, And I.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Guess you're right it's been good. I've never been with
anybody six years.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
What I did want to say, it's not uncommon the
people are with therapists that long. It's just not everybody
will do it. So I don't want anybody who's like
I've been seeing my therapist for fifteen years to feel
like they're doing anything wrong. That's just like, not everybody
will do that. But yeah, this is an unfortunate situation.
I would like you said, curiosity versus jumping to a conclusion,
(29:05):
because we don't have all the information yet, give it
one lass go. That would not be inappropriate you and
I would want my clients to reach out again and
hopefully you'll get some answers. Maybe you've already got an answer.
I don't know, but hopefully you'll get some answers too,
and you'll be able to process, because yeah, a lot
this is like. The timing couldn't be worse.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
I know, I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
That's not easy. I'm sorry about your cat. I don't
know if the toe and the cancer are related, but
it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
You've got to email us back, Alex, and in the meantime,
I hope this helps If anything give you a little giggle.
When we talked about how your friend thought she got
stood up, but he really died, I was.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Like, what's funny about I know that's not funny either
after I said that, but I mean, it is kind
of funny that at your friend. It's not like she
knew him well, like that she thought she was stood up?
It is that not funny because now I feel bad
and they also happened a while ago.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I don't know him.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, it's sad. I think the if it was like
just like an antidote, Like, do is I say that
word antidote? Antidote not antidote.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
An ants breaching, ansteadote. What are you an antidote anecdote? Oh? Yeah,
there you go.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
If it was just an anecdote. But if the fact
that is somebody did die, that part's not funny first
not yeah, shocking. I will say she didn't like cried
to her, she didn't know the guy she's.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I'm saying, like, I'm not laughing that somebody died. It's
weird that he that she thought she got stood up
and you didn't.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
He probably did want to go out with you. And
now she's getting married, so everything is it's working out
for her?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, speaking of getting married, we did get an email.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
A really good segment. Oh my gosh, it's my Gish.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Wedding confusion because the subject of the email was wedding venue.
The subject of the email was wedding venue, and so
(31:26):
I thought, because Kat got married a couple of years ago,
I'm like, Oh, someone's emailing asking about the venue Kat
got married at. So I read the verse line it like,
my fiance and I've been looking at your wedding venue.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
And that's pretty much all I read, because I was like, oh, well,
Kat can answer this one.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
She got married at Clementine, right, and it was so
cute and on your Instagram and photos like you can
see Clementine in letters in the background, so someone may know, oh,
that's where she got married. And so I literally did
not read the rest of this because I thought it
was an email Clementine, and I was like, I don't
know what to say about this. Cat might like, Cat
might be able to share what her experience was, like,
(32:05):
did she like it?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Was it good? Or the pros the cons? All this?
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Right, So I'm thinking we'll do that email. And then
you were talking to me before we were recording, and
you were like, I think somebody is confusing our email
address with like a wedding venue, and I'm like, no, no,
that person just wants to know the venue where you
got married. You can answer it real quick, and then
you're like, no, Amy read it.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So this is the email.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
My fiance and I have been looking at your wedding
venue for twenty twenty six as my sister was married
at your venue.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
In April this year and we loved it.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
If you have any wedding packages or pricing you could
send through, that would be very much appreciated.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Thank you very much, kind regards, Jessica and Mark.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So I don't, but here's my question. I have a
couple questions about this one. How how do they think,
hey there at Feelingthings dot com. Is it Feeling Things
post podcast dot com is a wedding vent. They had
to type that in, so I'm confused unless they were
typing in hey there, and there was another.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Like yeah, it was like hey there, Clemine, you know,
but the other we don't even know that. It's Clementine.
We don't even know it. Jess Calypse.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
I thought, oh, they are getting married in Nashville, and
they want to know about Clementine.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
And now we have no idea, which I would love
to tell people because I love my venue. But the
other thing that's interesting about this is or just a
question that popped into my head. Would you want to
get married? This is just like I'm curious about your preference.
Would you want to get married the same venue that
your sister did?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Oh you would.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, that doesn't mother me. Oh.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I kind of had strong feelings about that, like you.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Need your own place. Yes, because my mom what if
it was perfect? Well, okay, would you get if I
got married to Clementine.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
No, I don't think that I would be mad if okay,
we're gonna do this both ways, I would, first of all,
not I want everybody to get married at Clementin because
I loved it and I thought it was amazing. And
I've never been guessed at a wedding there. I've only
gotten married there, So please get married at Clementin. I
would probably be flattered if if I got married first
(34:15):
and my sister wanted to get married at the same
venue as me, But my sister got married before me,
and my mom scheduled an appointment like a tour at
her wedding venue, and I was like, I don't want
to have the same wedding as my sister. And I
was I really didn't want to go, but my mom
was like, let's just go see when you compare pricing.
It was a lot more expensive than Clementine, I'll tell
(34:36):
you that. So that kind of solved that issue. But
I felt very strongly that, like, I wanted my own things.
So I was just curious if that is.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
That just me?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
How other people would? I mean, obviously this person wants
to get married where their sister got married.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Yeah, it wouldn't bother me, But I mean it doesn't
bother Jessica, but we don't know if it'd bother her sister, Lauren.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Actually, let's check in with your sister, your first, and
also your sister might have some of the.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Jessica's listening.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
She's not they've never heard of this podcast, but also
they would have to have heard about it.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yeah, or emailed us before.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
Maybe we need to search Jessica's email in our inbox
and see if anything's ever come through.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, because she's probably thinking like that venue never got
back to me. Yeah, And it's like, well we just aren't.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
We'd love We need to reply to her and let
her know, and then also we need to search our
search her name in our history and see if she
comes up, so we can be like, and.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
I'm curious, like where do you want to get married?
Speaker 4 (35:37):
What if we find another email from her that's like,
so I've been dating this guy Mark, and I don't
know if I should marry him because he did.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
This, this and this, and we're like, no, don't do it.
Just kidding.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Congratulations Jessica and Mark, whoever you are out there, we
wish you nothing but love and.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Babies if that's what you want. If that's not what
you want, then no babies, lots of love and no
babies or lots of love and happiness, happiness you know
Ashley Lemieux or how do you say her last name?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Never let me.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I haven't seen her in years, Like before covid is like,
there's like pre covid BC and AD there's like PC
pre covid.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
She has had some miscarriages and they have one daughter,
and she posted a video the other day of what
it's like she's leave one of their babies could be
more of a still birth situation than a miscarriage. I
know she's haid miscarriages too, but one was later term,
and she was talking about how casually people bring up
(36:46):
that they've got their one child if they don't know
her story, and how they'll be like, oh, did y'all
not want more? And I know everybody means well. I shoot,
I would even maybe be guilty of this of like, oh,
do you want more than one kid?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Or do you And it's just there's so many.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Women out there where it's such a sensitive topic of
you know, nobody means any harm. But it just brought
it to my attention too, to have that awareness of
when I'm getting curious about if people are going to
have kids or if they've.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Only got one. I think I'm more dialed in if
people don't have kids to not say anything.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Because I went through my own fertility journey and so
badly wanted to be pregnant and people were asking us
when we were going to have kids, and that was
a little difficult. And again, I know they meant well,
but I don't know that I would have that same
filter if I see them already with one.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Because you're like, well, you can have kids I'm like, yeah,
you have your one kid, so how many do y'all want?
Do you want?
Speaker 4 (37:43):
And for her it's like, well, we've had three others
and they haven't made it or whatever, however many And
I just thought that popped in my head now, So
just kind of sharing that, just for that awareness of
you don't know what people are carrying.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, I think that's a good point. You just assume
that you've had kids, so you can have them, but
you don't know what the journey of having that kid was, right,
like you said, after what happens?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, so well thanks for that, no problem.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
A little therapy at the end after we talked about
this wedding venue.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, we got Alex covered with her therapist.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
Good luck Jessica and Mark. And then we have our
anonymous email about forgiveness. And I think something that I
have done with different scenarios in my life as I
try to replay what could have been or replay a
scenario and try to make it different.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Do you ever do that in your mind?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yes, yeah, this is a very normal thing.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
Why what do you I just sometimes will get stuck
on the replaying of things or what I could have
done differently or what they could have done differently, and
that doesn't feel very productive.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
No, you know, this is like not I want to
say brain surgery, but like this isn't like the craziest
somebody has ever said to me. But for some reason,
when this happened, it was so helpful. So years ago
I got in a little legal situation. Somebody got mad
about something with UNI Therapy, my old podcast. They reported
(39:16):
me to the board. I've never gotten reported to the
Board of Therapy. It actually is more common than you think,
because anybody can just send an anonymous complaint about anybody
and they don't have to have any proof or anything
about it.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
So, which is wild.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, it's great, and it's scary. It's scary when you
get you get a letter in the mail and it's like,
oh no, like are they gonna believe me? So it
is scary. But I think also the board takes into
account that, like if we're gonna reprimand somebody for something,
there needs to be some kind of evidence proof, right anyway,
So I had gotten in I got this letter in
the mail, I called. I immediately called the board. This
(39:53):
is a I'm gonna give you guys a word to
a wise word to the whys of what not to do,
and also tell you this little snippet that helped me.
If this happens to you, you can call the board,
but take a beat before you do your like interview
if they interview about the complaint. I didn't know any
of this. So the woman was like, Okay, we need
a schedule interview to go over what happened. And I
(40:15):
was like, oh, we can do that right now, like
I'm ready, Like I didn't feel like I did anything wrong,
like I didn't have anything to hide. And so we
did it, and I answered some questions, and I guess
I answered them in either not a professional way or
just I said some things that from a lawyer's perspective,
they just wouldn't have said. And so when I did
(40:36):
end up, I had to get a lawyer to help
me with this. And so when I did get a lawyer,
I was telling her what happened, and she basically was
she said that like, Okay, next time, don't do this,
like blah blah blah, this isn't probably the best thing
for you to say I and I kind of got
anxiety about it, like, oh, I didn't know, like I
didn't really think of how serious this was whatever, blah
blah blah, and she said, you know what, actually, it
(40:59):
doesn't matter. You said what you said, you did what
you did. We can't go backwards, and so now we're
going to work with what we have at hand. Now
all we can do is move forward. The way she
was so like matter of fact about that, was like,
it doesn't matter what you did was what you did,
and all we can do is take what you did
and move forward with it and figure out what to
(41:20):
do next. And I was like, oh, okay, so what
do we do? And it was just very helpful, like
there's it was. And I think sometimes I even give
too much space for that, even in the therapy room
with my clients. So I let them kind of ruminate
a little bit versus like, we can't do anything about it.
You can't change it, you can't undo it, you can't
(41:40):
replay it and fix things, but you can move forward
with intention, and so why don't we focus on that?
And we did. And I spent a lot of money
on a lawyer and didn't really actually need anything because
they threw out the complaint. I spent a lot of
(42:07):
money on a lawyer and didn't really actually need anything,
because they threw out the point.
Speaker 4 (42:11):
Oh that's so crazy to me that then you're responsible
for legal fees like that. It makes me think of
the Bachelor Clayton guy who's been love trapped by Laura Owens.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
How he's not going to get any of that money.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
Yeah, I saw his legal fees the other day, or
over two hundred thousand dollars, but he had like yeah,
and she is the one lying, right, So she decides
that she's pregnant even though she's not, and she ropes
him into this whole thing, and then he has to
(42:47):
get legal representation to fight her on it. And it's like, wait,
why am I getting punished.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
When he didn't do anything right?
Speaker 4 (42:55):
Or if it rolls reverse or in your case, like
you're getting punished financially and having to take all this time,
energy and money to handle a situation that ended up
being nothing. And in this case, she's was never pregnant, right,
they never actually had intercourse.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
I feel like case closed.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, they couldn't prove that. I mean, it's one, but
even she admitted yeah she did didn't.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yes, she admitted that they didn't. So at that point,
if I'm the judge.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I'm like, all right, I think I don't want to
give anything. Well, I'm not going to say that because.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
I'm getting a ton of it in the news. It's
not like so a lot of.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Times when that stuff happens, you like if somebody sues
you for something and it's like crazy and then you
have to fight them. You can countersuit them and they
have to pay your legal fees, but they don't have
the money, right, If they don't have the money, then
you're just kind of screwed, which that sucks. I will
say this is something I learned, and this was just
me not thinking in me panic, any panicking and acting
(43:57):
before doing any research because I thought that situation that
I had, I thought it was like needed to be
handled immediately, and there was really no rush. I have malpractice.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Retained lawyer prematurely.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Maybe, well, I have malpractice insurance, so I could have
called my malpractice insurance and they would have paid for
the I could have got a lawyer through them and
it would have been covered through my malpractice. But I
wasn't thinking, and so I called a friend and was like,
I need a lawyer that deals with this, and great
lawyer expensive lawyer, and all she did is I mean
(44:33):
all she did have one conversation with me on the phone,
and it was a couple.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Thousand dollars for one conversation.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
And then I think we emailed twice. She was a
good lawyer, so I just think that her rate was
really high. So I would just if that ever happens,
if you have malpractice insurance, use it. That's what it's for.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
I was not thinking, do you think if you would
have taken a beat and just paused on a lot
of that too, it could have eventually like, how do
it get thrown out?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Because the past off of my like and there was
no evidence had to do any wrong.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
For it to get throng. I thought the person just
like pulled and decided.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Oh no, they wanted I think they really wanted me
to get in trouble, but there was no evidence of
me doing anything wrong, so they have to throw it out.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Why was that person so against you? I don't know
if I could say, okay, dang, we don't want to
I likes, I don't want to pay a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
And it wasn't even What was crazy is it wasn't
even so much against me. It was against somebody else
that and I was attached to that person, so they
went after both of us. So yeah, anyway, it was fun.
I learned a lot through that experience. I will say that,
So thank you for filing that complaint because.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Now you know, maybe it's going to save you from
something even yep more.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
And I just wanted to say in the line to
any therapist or helping profession person, like this happens. Nobody
talks about it when it happens, because sometimes you can
feel like, oh my gosh, this is like shameful or whatever,
but it actually happens to more people than you think
because of just anybody can write a complain about anybody.
A podcast listener or somebody who doesn't like our podcast
(46:15):
could complain to the board about me and make something up.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Well I sure hope not.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Well yeah, I hope not too. But like anybody could
do it.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
I'll be your witness because I'm by your side every episode.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Yeah, to my knowledge. Also, we have a disclaimer at
the beginning of our couch talks.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Well, they could make a complaint. They could pretend that
they were a past client for something, you know what
I mean, Like, anybody can this is not to give
anybody ideas any ideas. Yeah, but it just is. I
think that's why don't panic, because people have to have
evidence to get you in trouble. For unless you're Clayton.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
I guess yeah, man, Tomorrow I get to listen to
an episode. So I'm listening to Love Trapped one episode
like every two weeks because I listened to it at
my LASH appointments and I don't want to cheat on
it with my LASH person Amy.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
We're both named Damie. We're both listening to it, and
we're making our way.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I was gonna say, I think that you're gonna still
be listening to this by the time I have this baby.
I really do.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
Yeah, But I am starting to see things online so
I get a general idea what happens. But the podcast
just takes a deeper dive into the whole situation and
has audio from Court and it is wild where she's.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
Like, Judge, can I show?
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Can I stand up and show my pregnant belly? I
saw that clip on Instagram the other day. Obviously I
listened to one of it in the podcast, but it's
different to like see the actual footage of her from
the zoom.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Court is it zoom on court. I don't know, like
video from the video trial where she's like trying to
stand up and clearly show that she has a belly,
but then the woman judge is like, no, we're good,
and I was like, oh, I a prosthetic. Yeah she
must or she was very very bloated. I think she
(48:12):
had on a prosthetic because she wasn't pregnant.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, yeah, you can. Those are easy to come by.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yeah, that's what on maternal instinct she ordered a prosthetic.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
That that's another whole can of worms.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
I know.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Don't you think if you were the husband, you would
be like, let me feel your belly.
Speaker 4 (48:33):
Yeah, especially if my friends were speculating or there was
even an ounce of me. Thought like I would be
like take your.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Shirt off right? Or like are they never shot?
Speaker 3 (48:43):
Like no, he said they weren't intimate.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
I know, But why don't not even think about like
showering with each other? But I mean sometimes Patrick's in
the shower and I have to get something out of
the bathroom.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Yeah, Like, or when you're sleeping at night, be like
tickle tickle, and if she's like what are you doing?
Not just see what's in your belly and then like
rip it off and be like aha.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
I think there's a part of me that thinks that
he might have known more than he did. Do you
or do you think no?
Speaker 4 (49:12):
And like that he was in denial or what like?
I think he's just kinda I think he I think
he wanted his piece of land and she buy it
for him, and he was oblivious to a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Well, I think your half of that is where I
This is speculation, This is me not I'm not being
a therapist right now. I'm just talking as a human being.
But I do think she was giving him so much
it was in his benefit to go along. Now, I
don't do not think he thought what happened was going
to happen, Oh gosh.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
No.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
But I think he was playing along with her game
because it was really working out for him in the moment.
You know, he didn't have to do anything right. Yeah.
Oh wait, but sorry if I'm if I'm wrong, Wade,
I am so sorry. And you know what, we got
some other things to talk about.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
And teen Clayton never thought i'd say that.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Did you watch him on The Bachelor? No?
Speaker 4 (50:04):
But just when I go to his page from time
to time to see if there's anything new, and then
he's just awkwardly dancing in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Or doing whatever.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
And people have a hip hop dancer.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
He is a hip hop dancer. And I will say
he's sort of grown on me. I kind of thought
he was, you know, it just wasn't my cup of tea. Yeah,
little yeah, but poor guy.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Yeah, he's very different from the wait situation like.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
Yeah, yeah, okay. Well, thank you for sending in your emails.
And if you're looking for a wedding venue, we recommend
clement time. Although we cannot provide a price quote. You
can hit us of it hey there at Feeling Things
podcast dot com, or you can call it and leave
us a voicemail eight seven seven, two oh seven, two
oh seven seven.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
We hope you have the day you need to have.
Bye Bye,
While we hope Couch Talks can be a tool that
helps and supports wherever you are in life, Couch Talks
does not serve as a replacement or substitute for therapy
or any mental health services.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
A right break it down. If you ever have feelings
that you just fonsome Amy and Cat gotcha covin locking
a brother, Ladies and felas, do you just follow Anna
spirit where it's all phone or real stuff to the
chill stuff and m but Swayne. Sometimes the best thing
you can do it jes stop you feel things. This
(00:35):
is Feeling Things with Amy and Kat.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Happy Thursday.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
Welcome to Couch Talks, our Q and a episode to
the Feeling Things Podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
I'm Amy and I'm Kat.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
And our first email drummer all is anonymous. Oh, I'll
just get straight into it.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hey, Amy and Kat.
Speaker 4 (00:52):
I've been listening to you both from the start, and
I love that you have come together for feeling things.
I love your banter and relationship and I laugh every
time I listen to you. Guys, Cat, congratulations on baby Girl.
It's the most exciting adventure you'll embark on, but also
it's the hardest job you'll ever love.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
I think the way they did that there, it's cute.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
The hardest job you'll ever love.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Full disclosure, I'm behind on the podcast, so if anything
like my question has been discussed, disregard, I would like
to stay anonymous. But my main question is this, if
you feel like you have been wronged, how do you
forget about the wrongdoing? People say forgive and forget, and
I know that at some point I will feel better
after I forgive, but how do I forget about the
(01:35):
whole thing? And then I will say this person went
on to summarize their experience and everything that happened to them.
They did not want that part shared at all, and
cat read it. It was like I put some stuff
in our Google doc that we have about this about forgiveness,
and you know that would be more so for yourself,
(01:55):
not for them, and then cat typed.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I don't know if I can forget anybody for anything,
but if they did.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
That, and I thought, okay, well, this is good that
we've got some different perspectives on forgiveness. But I do
see your points, So why don't you go ahead and
talk about what your thoughts were after that? And anybody
else can relate? Obviously, not to the exact situations, were
not sharing that, but maybe in their heart having to
wrestle with having to or feeling the desire or what
(02:27):
to do with all these feelings. When you want to
forgive but you also want to forget, but you can't
seem to do either, what do you do?
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Well?
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I think that this situation. I'm not going to share
anything about the situation other than she did say at
the end, because my thought was, why would you want
to forgive and forget? This? A lot of times when
people do things that are very hurtful or harmful to us,
it's healthy to remember, so we don't put ourselves in
that situation again. And whatever version of forgiveness there is,
(02:56):
and I have a whole spiel on forced forgiveness that
I'll of go through. You can offer that for yourself,
and we don't always need to forget what has happened. However,
she did set she gave some reasons of why she
wants to and it's because these aren't people she can
just well she could, but she doesn't want to cut
(03:17):
these people out of her life. They're they're going they're
going to be intertwined for whatever reasons. And so I
do get her not wanting things to be awkward for herself. However,
can't totally get rid of the awkwardness or just the
tension completely, but you can diminish it lesson lesson, Yeah,
(03:41):
by working through some stuff internally. They don't ever have
to know. I think that's another thing to remember when
we're looking at like forgiveness and all that. The other
person doesn't necessarily always have to know that you forgive them,
because oftentimes you're doing that. So, especially in this situation,
she's doing that so she can move on. So there's
(04:01):
this thing I like to call force forgiveness, and that
is what happens when we take this kind of rhetoric
or just I think it's how people generally, especially in
faith based communities talk about forgiveness, says, you know, everybody
deserves it, Love thy neighbor, move on it, be the
bigger person, all this stuff. But the problem is you
(04:25):
can't just like snap your fingers and be like, I
forgive them, even if you think that per my belief
system or per whatever, it's the right thing to do,
you can't. That's like telling yourself you have to change
your feelings. You can't actually just change your feelings. There's
another option that I don't think is talked about as much,
and that is offering some compassion without forgiveness.
Speaker 4 (04:48):
So well, if forgiveness can still come, it just may
not come immediately at that time. Yeah, and it maybe
it doesn't ever come. But I think just leaving that
door open is good, but not this feeling of like, oh,
I need to forget right away because I've been forgiven,
or yes, because you may need more time to process.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, And that also can feel when that it's kind
of pushed on you. It feels like I don't have
a choice. And this I think what you're saying is
leaving the door open but not being forced to do
it right now gives you some agency versus I have
to do this, and then it's not as authentic either,
you know.
Speaker 4 (05:24):
Yeah, because you need time to process. You can't just
out of the gate be like, oh, okay, yeah, this
is fine, I forgive you. You may say I want
to forgive you, and my goal is to get there,
but I might take some time, and forgiveness for me
doesn't equal reconciliation.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah. Yeah, And I think other thing that's important in
this situation. I'm pretty sure the other party never apologized,
so that's not even a thing. So she's asking, how
do I forgive and forget without even somebody acknowledging that
we were hurt or harmed. She's in a tough situation, like,
so this is like one of the toughest situations you
(06:03):
can be kind of put in that regard. So I
like to think about offering compassion, another word you could
use as like some kind of understanding, versus forgiving and
kind of washing that away. Neither of these things include forgetting.
And I do think things with time don't feel as hot,
(06:25):
but I wouldn't. I would urge this person like you
don't forget it, because you also need to have boundaries
with this person. And if you forget this ever happened,
you could put yourself in that same situation. That does
not mean that every time I'm seeing this person, I'm
picturing myself poking their eyes out or something like that.
So an example of compassion without forgiveness would be like
(06:48):
if and I actually I should give credit to this.
I learned about this specific language with this from the
book Maybe you Should talk to Someone by Lori Gottlieb,
and she actually used I'll use the example she used,
she's an example of a dad that had abandoned his son.
I think or just wasn't present, or he might have
(07:08):
had addiction issues or something like that. But he wasn't present,
and he was not a good father. And on his
deathbed he acknowledged that to his son finally and was like,
you know what, I'm sorry. I didn't give you what
you needed. I was not the father that you deserved,
on and on and on, and the son just looked
at him and said thank you. He didn't say I
(07:30):
forgive you. He didn't say I forget that, don't worry
about it. And I think a lot of times when
people do apologize, we feel this pressure to be like, yoh,
it's okay. But when somebody apologizes, it's okay for you
just to be like, well, thank you, I really appreciate you,
acknowledging that that does not mean that you in that
moment then have to forgive them. Like you said, it
(07:51):
might come with time, it might never come, but if
I can offer compassion and see, okay, my dad also
was hand handed a kind of bad deal, like a
bad hand of cards, or my dad did the best
he could, but it wasn't enough. Then I don't have
to forgive him for that. I can understand and offer
(08:11):
him compassion that he was doing the best he could.
It just wasn't enough for me. So I don't know
if that's something that would help this person in this
situation because of some of the details. I wouldn't say
that this guy was doing the best that he could
and he didn't apologize from what I remember. But I
think also just looking at people as imperfect people and saying,
(08:36):
you know what, he's imperfect. He has his things. We
all have his things. He's a human. I might not
forgive him, but I can see him as that.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
So when you say someone is choosing not to forgive,
are they then I don't. And I don't know if
it's some of it's just how I grew up and
it is part of my faith, but I have a
hard time wrapping my head around like if you can
have that compassion and you can get there and see
where they're coming from and still acknowledge your feelings, then
(09:09):
just short of saying the words like okay, I think
I could forget, I'm forgiving this person or is it
just because someone really may not want to get to
that point or are they still harboring like really negative
feelings and thoughts of like, oh I hate this person
and what they did to me.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
Well, it could be both to bet on the person.
But when I think about this, and I think there's
people in my life that I I mean, in time,
I think some things have changed and things have not
been as important to me. But in the moment I
did not forgive them, but I was able to move on.
I still have those feelings of hurt sometimes it's anger,
so whatever it is, But I also I am not
(09:50):
sitting there being like you're the devil, right or I
wish bad things on it.
Speaker 4 (09:55):
But it's not And it's also not consuming you and
ruminating in your mind because for me, that's what forgets
has offered of like this piece of like also too,
I know when I mess up like I want to,
I would like the opportunity to be forgiven if I'm
asking for that, or even if I'm not, if someone
(10:15):
needs to forgive me something that I don't even know
that I did, which I'm sure has happened, because I
know there's times I've hurt people that I probably am
not aware of that they probably would have liked for
me to acknowledge I do have a lot of that,
like I want to do that because I want to forgive,
because I would like to be forgiven, and I don't know,
(10:36):
but that also this is.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
A different strokes for different folks kind of situation. If
forgiveness and all of that work, if that language and
that way of thinking things and that way of working
through things works for you, then don't mess with it.
I like to talk about the force forgiveness because I
think a lot of people are pushed into that and
it doesn't actually feel authentic to them, and then there's
(10:58):
a different kind of resentment built, or you lose yourself
in some of that right and you don't get to
stand up for yourself. Whereas some moments where I feel
like I have not forgiven somebody in the moment, but
I've been able to offer compassion is a way for
me to saying like that, for me to say this
is not okay, and I'm not abolishing you of what
you've done, and that feels like it's standing up for
(11:20):
myself feel like versus I feel like a lot of
people that are taught you must forgive or told they
must forgive for you to be a good person or
for you to have peace. It doesn't feel I think
the word that keeps coming to me is like that
they have agency over their feelings or protecting themselves or
(11:41):
standing up for themselves. So if you feel fine forgiving
somebody and it feels good and it helps you move on,
don't mess with that. But if you've been in moments
where you're like and why I brought this up with
this person is because she wants to be to move
forward with some of these people. But we don't always
(12:04):
have to forgive and forget to move forward. I can
move forward with boundaries, with remembering, with not saying it's okay,
I can still move forward. And sometimes when we do
that too, when we want to forgive and forget, it's
not for us. It's so the other person doesn't feel uncomfortable,
and like you can feel uncomfor I want you to
(12:26):
feel uncomfortable if you've done something that crazy, like you
should feeluncomfortable and you're around me because you should. There
should be guilt there this person. I don't think the
person felt guilt that she was talking about. And so
just make sure you're doing this for you versus so
the other people don't feel uncomfortable.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
Like when you have to create even boundaries, like with
people that still might be in your life.
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Like you mentioned earlier, some of the stuff is invisible.
It's stuff.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
It can be stuff you work through. It's not like
you have to announce to them. I now have a
boundary with you. You can work on creating your own
invisible boundaries and then just implement those as you see fit,
Like I have people close to me that were just
in a situation recently where they had to keep their
(13:16):
invisible boundaries intact, but then also a tiny line was crossed.
It wasn't crazy, but they stood up for themselves, and
I was really proud of them when they told me, oh, man,
this is a story. I wish I could tell you,
but I can't, but I will say I was proud
of how they handled it. And some of you might
be in a similar situation where your invisible boundary gets
(13:37):
crossed and then you may have to speak up. Invisible
boundaries are harder to keep than once where you have
to verbally declare them. But this person in my life
spoke up and spoke up firmly and directly, and I
was really, really proud of them, and that might be
something that you even practiced doing, because I was thinking
(14:00):
about if I was in the situation of the person
close to me and how they reacted and how perfect
it was. I was thinking, Oh, I wonder if they
did a little dress rehearsal, like a little run through
of different scenarios that might happen, and like, what's going
to be your response, Because if it's people that are
still in your life, at some point, you may be
(14:21):
put in a situation and you don't want to be
caught off guard or you don't want to be vulnerable,
and then you don't want to let them cross the
line because then it's like, oh, well I already let
you know.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
So maybe a little role.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
Play, whether that's with yourself or with a friend or.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
Out loud walking around talking to yourself in public practice
on strangers.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Nobody will think anything of it, y'all, like totally know.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
All and it will be fine.
Speaker 4 (14:44):
I think for me, it's the I don't I like
to For me, the forgiveness part works, like that is
something that works for me and that help, and I'm
not I may not forget, like with with my dad,
my sister and I were talking about when we were
kids and he left us for another woman, and how
(15:05):
way later in life, decades later, he circled back of
like I had my priorities wrong. And my sister and
I were just talking about it last week in Colorado
because I read that book Strangers, and I'm not giving
away anything in the book, like the premise of the book,
as the husband leaves their family and the way he
(15:26):
did it was very reminiscent of.
Speaker 3 (15:30):
What my dad did.
Speaker 4 (15:31):
And I was telling my sister about how when I
was reading that chapter, I was picturing us because it
was their's happened during COVID, so he had a mascot,
and I feel like that's like the only thing that
was different is they were having to keep their distance
and he had a mascot and it was whereas mine
was nineteen ninety no masks.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
But I felt for those little girls and what their
dad was telling them, and then why their dad left
and how he just left all of his responsibilities and
it was all in the mom and I'm like, our
dad did that, And I don't think I think about
that enough that like literally there was no custody, no.
Speaker 4 (16:09):
No, I want the kids on the weekends. No, you
know right now, I co parent fifty to fifty and
it's like there's no fun. We got no there was
like you can have the kids, you can have the house.
And if you remember that in the book, yeah, he's like,
I'm done. This isn't the life I want. You can
have the kids, you can have the house. Now he
supported financially and then like hung out with his kids
(16:31):
here and there. And I feel like that's how my
dad was. However, I do have compassion for my dad,
and I think my dad was overall a good person.
My daughter got a tattoo that says, and I'm paraphrasing that,
it says like every good story has a few bad chapters.
(16:52):
And that was something that came up, like when my
sister and I were talking, my daughter was with her
tattoo and she read that and they were like, oh
my gosh, that is so true. And it made us
think of our dad of how he had overall was
known to be a really good caring person, but to
(17:13):
like his kids and his wives, because there were four wives,
It's like, oh, but.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Was he really that?
Speaker 4 (17:20):
He just did he made some poor choices, He had
his priorities out of whack. But you know, when he
hit his seventies, he started thinking about the kind of
life he wanted to live and how he had lived it,
and he had some regret and it was too late.
But I think it's when I think about my half brother,
(17:41):
my half sister, my sister, and I in the kind
of relationship we had with our dad.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Even though he handled leaving my half.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Brother and half sister that way, like they got adopted
by their new stepdad and my dad let them like
they have a different last thing.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
He did that first.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
He did that first because they're older.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
And I can't imagine if like right now and we're
to get remarried and be like, hey, my new wife
wants to adopt the kids.
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Are you cool with that? I'd be like, no, we good.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
We have a good fight for that. You absolutely And
you wouldn't just say we're good. You'd be like, are
you freaking kidding me?
Speaker 3 (18:14):
Like we're good the way we are.
Speaker 4 (18:15):
We're not changing it, like there's no need for that.
But my dad was sort of like, Okay, y'a'll pump
responsibility to him.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Yeah, like go for it.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
And the way my half sister and half brother are
still loved my dad. Like we were all there when
we unplugged him. He was on life support. All four
of us were there together, and it's like what he
would have wanted was his four kids, like he loved us,
and it's like somehow we still felt his love even
though we all have this.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Deep wound of abandonment because of him.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Well he did abandon me.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, uh so anyway I forgive him. Yeah,
it's yeah, it's not something I guess it's black and
white and this is a simple thing.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
I just want this person that wrote in to know,
and for everybody to know you have options, like you
have options, and think about like what each option would
give you and why you're feeling called to each option
before you're like I must do this or I must
do that. You can still have a cordial relationship with
somebody without saying to them. And sometimes it's the language.
(19:40):
Sometimes this the word forgiveness or any of that just
has it can put a bad taste in somebody's mouth
because of how they were raised or whatever. So if
it doesn't, again, don't worry about it. It sounds like
for you it that's exactly what you needed.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Well, and I think it's part of my faith. I've
had time, yes, and I've had time.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:00):
So okay, moving on now. This is about abandonment a
little bit kind of but is it?
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Have they been ditched?
Speaker 1 (20:11):
This is about abandonment, but not by a parent. About
this is by somebody you would you would think it
would be there for you because you're well. You think
your parents would be too.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
But this person you're paying. Hey, Amy and Kat.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I was hoping you guys could help me think through
a therapy dilemma I'm having. I've been seeing the same
therapist every week for almost six years. I actually didn't
realize that wasn't common until Kat mentioned that some therapists
don't see clients long term. I have anxiety, OCD, ADHD,
et cetera. And she's been incredible for me. She's helped
me build coping skills to the point where I don't
have to rely on medication, and I genuinely love working
(20:51):
with her. About a month ago, I skipped a week
because work was going to be busy. During that break,
my grandma, who played a huge part in races me
and who I talked to every single day, passed away unexpectedly.
I was really struggling, so I emailed my therapist asking
if she had any availability sooner than our already scheduled appointment.
She didn't, but she sent me some grief resources that.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Honestly helped a lot.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
So I figured i'd see her at our virtual appointment
the following Monday. Except she never showed up. In almost
six years, that's never happened. I assumed it was just
a scheduling mix up because we'd had the unusual week off,
so I emailed her. When I didn't hear back, I
followed up a few days later because I was genuinely worried.
She apologized and said that she wasn't feeling well and
(21:38):
would let me know her availability. I wished her well
and figured that explained everything. Later that same night, she
replied to my original email and offered to meet me
the next day. I wasn't available, so I asked about
a couple of other days the following week, and I
never heard back.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
That was over two weeks ago since my last therapy session.
My grandma has died and my kat has been diagnosed
with cancer and is now scheduled for a toe amputation.
My partner thinks I.
Speaker 4 (22:05):
Should start looking for another therapist, but that feels so
overwhelming when I already have so much going on, Starting
over with someone new feels like the last thing I
need right now. The hardest part is that this is
so unlike her. She's always been incredibly professional, which honestly
makes me wonder if something serious is going on in
her own life. At the same time, I'm scared to
email her again because I don't know if I'm more
(22:27):
afraid of finding out something happened to her or finding
out nothing happened and feeling rejected. So my questions are,
is it time to move on and find another therapist?
Should I email her one more time?
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Kat?
Speaker 4 (22:39):
If you were the therapist in this situation, what would
you want your client to do? Thank you both for
always giving my brain a break and bringing me so
much joy to my life. Have the day you need
to have, Alex from DC thirty two PS. My grandma
recently told me that when she had her five kids
throughout the fifties and sixties, they just knocked her out
for childbirth, didn't feel or remember a thing. It was
(23:02):
the first time I'd ever heard of that, too, crazy,
So she's referring to the Twilight births that we were
talking about last week or the week before. Now, as
for the therapy questions, cat al punt to you, since
you're the therapist and like, would you just start ghosting
a client ever?
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Would you just be up front?
Speaker 4 (23:23):
Or also, yeah, did she sinkes you think of your friend?
Remember that that that friend of yours that thought she
was stood up by a date but he died.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yes, he has a struggle or something.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
Now, something with his heart. Oh yeah, well he was young,
it was he was in his thirties. Yes, Like you
think that's a joke when you're like, did he die?
Like that might not, but he actually did.
Speaker 4 (23:44):
When I read that part, I was thinking of your
friend and she thought until she found out that he
had died, she straight up thought he stood her up.
Speaker 1 (23:52):
Yes, and she was mad, rightfully, So right, I don't
think this therapist is dead though. No. Here's the thing.
If I die, there is a protocol for somebody to
notify my clients.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
Ooh, you want me to what's the process? Do you
hire a company?
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Usually it's going to be another person, probably working in
the field, but I guess it could be you. You
just have to have like a what's an actual agreement.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
What what's your plan?
Speaker 1 (24:21):
My plan is to have somebody a colleague, email all
my clients, but you have to have like written consent
for them to actually access certain records so they know
who your clients are so they could let them know.
And also you would want them to like give resources too.
So you probably wouldn't be the best person to do
that because I don't know that you would have the
recommendations and resources to give these people.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
We're going to outlive me, so that's fine.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Well, you never know what could happen.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
You're younger than me. We're gonna die of old age.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
We're both gonna die at.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Old a three and all die first because I'm old.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
Yeah, yeah, okay, I like that plan. So her question
is mostly what would I want my client to do?
Like what should she do?
Speaker 3 (25:05):
One?
Speaker 1 (25:05):
This is odd? I just want her to know that
this is like not normal. I do like that she's
not totally jumping to conclusions. I think my first thought
is like, how could you do that to a client?
But also like maybe something is going on right.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
I mean, it's good she's emailing us and asking. She's
not like showing up at her therapist's place. Like in
the middle of the night, like are you okay? Why
are you not emailing me back?
Speaker 3 (25:28):
Like I'm featuring some scene from a show where like
that would happen, of like what why aren't you emailing me?
That I need a session?
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So I would email the therapist again and I would say, Hey,
just checking in again, and then I would want to
talk about this in a session because this is going
to leave some lingering feelings, whether or not she has
I mean, your therapist doesn't have to tell you exactly
if something is going on with her. She doesn't have
to tell you exactly what's going on, but it's fair
for you to process some of the feelings that you're
(25:58):
feeling right now about feeling bandoned or ghosted or all
of that, and what you would have needed. I am
the first one to admit sometimes I forget to respond
to an email. So I actually tell most of my
clients in the first session when I explain like how
to communicate with me like versus text, email, phone, call, whatever,
I will say If I ever don't answer, you, please
(26:20):
follow up, because that means that I probably just read
the email and then couldn't respond the moment and then
forgot so please please.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
And ye did get off schedule?
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yes, so I would email her again. I don't think
that that is annoying at all. If that's what you're thinking,
like you don't want to.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Like even seeing her for six years, I think I
would shoot my shot one more time, right, and if
like that, after that, if you don't hear back, then
you show up.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
If if she doesn't answer you after this next email,
what I would suggest actually is like writing an email
about like feeling what your feelings are and sending it
to her. I think that's very fair. Like whether you're
seeing somebody for six years or not, I think it's there.
If they're if the therapist isn't able to give you care.
Speaker 3 (27:07):
I would should keep seeing them anyways, well, right, and
there should be some.
Speaker 1 (27:11):
Kind of closure, And I think I would leave space
for there's still a world where something has happened where
she is not able to respond and like she's not
just ignoring you, right.
Speaker 4 (27:24):
If normally she doesn't behave this way, this could be
a clue something is going on in her life. Not
only did y'all get off schedule, but who knows in
the last two weeks what could have popped up? For her,
and she's got her head above water, treading trying to
like just get through. So maybe I wouldn't jump ship
and go find a new therapist right away. I get
(27:45):
that your partner is suggesting that, because you probably do
need to talk to someone quickly with all that you
have going on.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
But starting over with someone.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
New would be a lot in this season, So why
would just maybe have a little more patience for this
to sitution situation and then if you get a clear sign,
then you may have to move on.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
When I would if she's not answering you, yeah, you
can find another therapist right now, and then if she
ends up answering in the future, you can, and you
can repair things. You can always go back to her.
But I wouldn't write her off yet.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Yeah, I wouldn't write it off like there's I wouldn't
even have hard feelings. I would just have curiosity. Yes,
like something's clearly up and I've got a lot going on,
and yeah, if you want to start, but starting over
with somebody new is a lot.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, sometimes it can be good. Yeah, maybe a little,
like you've done that a couple of times. Yeah, I
have Yeah, And I.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Guess you're right it's been good. I've never been with
anybody six years.
Speaker 1 (28:43):
What I did want to say, it's not uncommon the
people are with therapists that long. It's just not everybody
will do it. So I don't want anybody who's like
I've been seeing my therapist for fifteen years to feel
like they're doing anything wrong. That's just like, not everybody
will do that. But yeah, this is an unfortunate situation.
I would like you said, curiosity versus jumping to a conclusion,
(29:05):
because we don't have all the information yet, give it
one lass go. That would not be inappropriate you and
I would want my clients to reach out again and
hopefully you'll get some answers. Maybe you've already got an answer.
I don't know, but hopefully you'll get some answers too,
and you'll be able to process, because yeah, a lot
this is like. The timing couldn't be worse.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
I know, I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
That's not easy. I'm sorry about your cat. I don't
know if the toe and the cancer are related, but
it's a lot.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
You've got to email us back, Alex, and in the meantime,
I hope this helps If anything give you a little giggle.
When we talked about how your friend thought she got
stood up, but he really died, I was.
Speaker 4 (29:48):
Like, what's funny about I know that's not funny either
after I said that, but I mean, it is kind
of funny that at your friend. It's not like she
knew him well, like that she thought she was stood up?
It is that not funny because now I feel bad
and they also happened a while ago.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
I don't know him.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah, it's sad. I think the if it was like
just like an antidote, Like, do is I say that
word antidote? Antidote not antidote.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
An ants breaching, ansteadote. What are you an antidote anecdote? Oh? Yeah,
there you go.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
If it was just an anecdote. But if the fact
that is somebody did die, that part's not funny first
not yeah, shocking. I will say she didn't like cried
to her, she didn't know the guy she's.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
I'm saying, like, I'm not laughing that somebody died. It's
weird that he that she thought she got stood up
and you didn't.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
He probably did want to go out with you. And
now she's getting married, so everything is it's working out
for her?
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, speaking of getting married, we did get an email.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
A really good segment. Oh my gosh, it's my Gish.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Wedding confusion because the subject of the email was wedding venue.
The subject of the email was wedding venue, and so
(31:26):
I thought, because Kat got married a couple of years ago,
I'm like, Oh, someone's emailing asking about the venue Kat
got married at. So I read the verse line it like,
my fiance and I've been looking at your wedding venue.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
And that's pretty much all I read, because I was like, oh, well,
Kat can answer this one.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
She got married at Clementine, right, and it was so
cute and on your Instagram and photos like you can
see Clementine in letters in the background, so someone may know, oh,
that's where she got married. And so I literally did
not read the rest of this because I thought it
was an email Clementine, and I was like, I don't
know what to say about this. Cat might like, Cat
might be able to share what her experience was, like,
(32:05):
did she like it?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
Was it good? Or the pros the cons? All this?
Speaker 4 (32:08):
Right, So I'm thinking we'll do that email. And then
you were talking to me before we were recording, and
you were like, I think somebody is confusing our email
address with like a wedding venue, and I'm like, no, no,
that person just wants to know the venue where you
got married. You can answer it real quick, and then
you're like, no, Amy read it.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
So this is the email.
Speaker 4 (32:32):
My fiance and I have been looking at your wedding
venue for twenty twenty six as my sister was married
at your venue.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
In April this year and we loved it.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
If you have any wedding packages or pricing you could
send through, that would be very much appreciated.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Thank you very much, kind regards, Jessica and Mark.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
So I don't, but here's my question. I have a
couple questions about this one. How how do they think,
hey there at Feelingthings dot com. Is it Feeling Things
post podcast dot com is a wedding vent. They had
to type that in, so I'm confused unless they were
typing in hey there, and there was another.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Like yeah, it was like hey there, Clemine, you know,
but the other we don't even know that. It's Clementine.
We don't even know it. Jess Calypse.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
I thought, oh, they are getting married in Nashville, and
they want to know about Clementine.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
And now we have no idea, which I would love
to tell people because I love my venue. But the
other thing that's interesting about this is or just a
question that popped into my head. Would you want to
get married? This is just like I'm curious about your preference.
Would you want to get married the same venue that
your sister did?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yeah, that's why.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Oh you would.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
Yeah, that doesn't mother me. Oh.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
I kind of had strong feelings about that, like you.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Need your own place. Yes, because my mom what if
it was perfect? Well, okay, would you get if I
got married to Clementine.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
No, I don't think that I would be mad if okay,
we're gonna do this both ways, I would, first of all,
not I want everybody to get married at Clementin because
I loved it and I thought it was amazing. And
I've never been guessed at a wedding there. I've only
gotten married there, So please get married at Clementin. I
would probably be flattered if if I got married first
(34:15):
and my sister wanted to get married at the same
venue as me, But my sister got married before me,
and my mom scheduled an appointment like a tour at
her wedding venue, and I was like, I don't want
to have the same wedding as my sister. And I
was I really didn't want to go, but my mom
was like, let's just go see when you compare pricing.
It was a lot more expensive than Clementine, I'll tell
(34:36):
you that. So that kind of solved that issue. But
I felt very strongly that, like, I wanted my own things.
So I was just curious if that is.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
That just me?
Speaker 1 (34:44):
How other people would? I mean, obviously this person wants
to get married where their sister got married.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Yeah, it wouldn't bother me, But I mean it doesn't
bother Jessica, but we don't know if it'd bother her sister, Lauren.
Speaker 3 (34:56):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:57):
Actually, let's check in with your sister, your first, and
also your sister might have some of the.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Jessica's listening.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
She's not they've never heard of this podcast, but also
they would have to have heard about it.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Yeah, or emailed us before.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
Maybe we need to search Jessica's email in our inbox
and see if anything's ever come through.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
Yeah, because she's probably thinking like that venue never got
back to me. Yeah, And it's like, well we just aren't.
Speaker 4 (35:26):
We'd love We need to reply to her and let
her know, and then also we need to search our
search her name in our history and see if she
comes up, so we can be like, and.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
I'm curious, like where do you want to get married?
Speaker 4 (35:37):
What if we find another email from her that's like,
so I've been dating this guy Mark, and I don't
know if I should marry him because he did.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
This, this and this, and we're like, no, don't do it.
Just kidding.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Congratulations Jessica and Mark, whoever you are out there, we
wish you nothing but love and.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
Babies if that's what you want. If that's not what
you want, then no babies, lots of love and no
babies or lots of love and happiness, happiness you know
Ashley Lemieux or how do you say her last name?
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Never let me.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
I haven't seen her in years, Like before covid is like,
there's like pre covid BC and AD there's like PC
pre covid.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
She has had some miscarriages and they have one daughter,
and she posted a video the other day of what
it's like she's leave one of their babies could be
more of a still birth situation than a miscarriage. I
know she's haid miscarriages too, but one was later term,
and she was talking about how casually people bring up
(36:46):
that they've got their one child if they don't know
her story, and how they'll be like, oh, did y'all
not want more? And I know everybody means well. I shoot,
I would even maybe be guilty of this of like, oh,
do you want more than one kid?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
Or do you And it's just there's so many.
Speaker 4 (37:01):
Women out there where it's such a sensitive topic of
you know, nobody means any harm. But it just brought
it to my attention too, to have that awareness of
when I'm getting curious about if people are going to
have kids or if they've.
Speaker 3 (37:15):
Only got one. I think I'm more dialed in if
people don't have kids to not say anything.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Because I went through my own fertility journey and so
badly wanted to be pregnant and people were asking us
when we were going to have kids, and that was
a little difficult. And again, I know they meant well,
but I don't know that I would have that same
filter if I see them already with one.
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Because you're like, well, you can have kids I'm like, yeah,
you have your one kid, so how many do y'all want?
Do you want?
Speaker 4 (37:43):
And for her it's like, well, we've had three others
and they haven't made it or whatever, however many And
I just thought that popped in my head now, So
just kind of sharing that, just for that awareness of
you don't know what people are carrying.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
Yeah, I think that's a good point. You just assume
that you've had kids, so you can have them, but
you don't know what the journey of having that kid was, right,
like you said, after what happens?
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Yeah, so well thanks for that, no problem.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
A little therapy at the end after we talked about
this wedding venue.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, we got Alex covered with her therapist.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
Good luck Jessica and Mark. And then we have our
anonymous email about forgiveness. And I think something that I
have done with different scenarios in my life as I
try to replay what could have been or replay a
scenario and try to make it different.
Speaker 3 (38:38):
Do you ever do that in your mind?
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Yes, yeah, this is a very normal thing.
Speaker 4 (38:42):
Why what do you I just sometimes will get stuck
on the replaying of things or what I could have
done differently or what they could have done differently, and
that doesn't feel very productive.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
No, you know, this is like not I want to
say brain surgery, but like this isn't like the craziest
somebody has ever said to me. But for some reason,
when this happened, it was so helpful. So years ago
I got in a little legal situation. Somebody got mad
about something with UNI Therapy, my old podcast. They reported
(39:16):
me to the board. I've never gotten reported to the
Board of Therapy. It actually is more common than you think,
because anybody can just send an anonymous complaint about anybody
and they don't have to have any proof or anything
about it.
Speaker 3 (39:30):
So, which is wild.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Yeah, it's great, and it's scary. It's scary when you
get you get a letter in the mail and it's like,
oh no, like are they gonna believe me? So it
is scary. But I think also the board takes into
account that, like if we're gonna reprimand somebody for something,
there needs to be some kind of evidence proof, right anyway,
So I had gotten in I got this letter in
the mail, I called. I immediately called the board. This
(39:53):
is a I'm gonna give you guys a word to
a wise word to the whys of what not to do,
and also tell you this little snippet that helped me.
If this happens to you, you can call the board,
but take a beat before you do your like interview
if they interview about the complaint. I didn't know any
of this. So the woman was like, Okay, we need
a schedule interview to go over what happened. And I
(40:15):
was like, oh, we can do that right now, like
I'm ready, Like I didn't feel like I did anything wrong,
like I didn't have anything to hide. And so we
did it, and I answered some questions, and I guess
I answered them in either not a professional way or
just I said some things that from a lawyer's perspective,
they just wouldn't have said. And so when I did
(40:36):
end up, I had to get a lawyer to help
me with this. And so when I did get a lawyer,
I was telling her what happened, and she basically was
she said that like, Okay, next time, don't do this,
like blah blah blah, this isn't probably the best thing
for you to say I and I kind of got
anxiety about it, like, oh, I didn't know, like I
didn't really think of how serious this was whatever, blah
blah blah, and she said, you know what, actually, it
(40:59):
doesn't matter. You said what you said, you did what
you did. We can't go backwards, and so now we're
going to work with what we have at hand. Now
all we can do is move forward. The way she
was so like matter of fact about that, was like,
it doesn't matter what you did was what you did,
and all we can do is take what you did
and move forward with it and figure out what to
(41:20):
do next. And I was like, oh, okay, so what
do we do? And it was just very helpful, like
there's it was. And I think sometimes I even give
too much space for that, even in the therapy room
with my clients. So I let them kind of ruminate
a little bit versus like, we can't do anything about it.
You can't change it, you can't undo it, you can't
(41:40):
replay it and fix things, but you can move forward
with intention, and so why don't we focus on that?
And we did. And I spent a lot of money
on a lawyer and didn't really actually need anything because
they threw out the complaint. I spent a lot of
(42:07):
money on a lawyer and didn't really actually need anything,
because they threw out the point.
Speaker 4 (42:11):
Oh that's so crazy to me that then you're responsible
for legal fees like that. It makes me think of
the Bachelor Clayton guy who's been love trapped by Laura Owens.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
How he's not going to get any of that money.
Speaker 4 (42:26):
Yeah, I saw his legal fees the other day, or
over two hundred thousand dollars, but he had like yeah,
and she is the one lying, right, So she decides
that she's pregnant even though she's not, and she ropes
him into this whole thing, and then he has to
(42:47):
get legal representation to fight her on it. And it's like, wait,
why am I getting punished.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
When he didn't do anything right?
Speaker 4 (42:55):
Or if it rolls reverse or in your case, like
you're getting punished financially and having to take all this time,
energy and money to handle a situation that ended up
being nothing. And in this case, she's was never pregnant, right,
they never actually had intercourse.
Speaker 3 (43:14):
I feel like case closed.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
Well, they couldn't prove that. I mean, it's one, but
even she admitted yeah she did didn't.
Speaker 3 (43:22):
Yes, she admitted that they didn't. So at that point,
if I'm the judge.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
I'm like, all right, I think I don't want to
give anything. Well, I'm not going to say that because.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
I'm getting a ton of it in the news. It's
not like so a lot of.
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Times when that stuff happens, you like if somebody sues
you for something and it's like crazy and then you
have to fight them. You can countersuit them and they
have to pay your legal fees, but they don't have
the money, right, If they don't have the money, then
you're just kind of screwed, which that sucks. I will
say this is something I learned, and this was just
me not thinking in me panic, any panicking and acting
(43:57):
before doing any research because I thought that situation that
I had, I thought it was like needed to be
handled immediately, and there was really no rush. I have malpractice.
Speaker 3 (44:09):
Retained lawyer prematurely.
Speaker 1 (44:11):
Maybe, well, I have malpractice insurance, so I could have
called my malpractice insurance and they would have paid for
the I could have got a lawyer through them and
it would have been covered through my malpractice. But I
wasn't thinking, and so I called a friend and was like,
I need a lawyer that deals with this, and great
lawyer expensive lawyer, and all she did is I mean
(44:33):
all she did have one conversation with me on the phone,
and it was a couple.
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Thousand dollars for one conversation.
Speaker 1 (44:40):
And then I think we emailed twice. She was a
good lawyer, so I just think that her rate was
really high. So I would just if that ever happens,
if you have malpractice insurance, use it. That's what it's for.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
I was not thinking, do you think if you would
have taken a beat and just paused on a lot
of that too, it could have eventually like, how do
it get thrown out?
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Because the past off of my like and there was
no evidence had to do any wrong.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
For it to get throng. I thought the person just
like pulled and decided.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
Oh no, they wanted I think they really wanted me
to get in trouble, but there was no evidence of
me doing anything wrong, so they have to throw it out.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Why was that person so against you? I don't know
if I could say, okay, dang, we don't want to
I likes, I don't want to pay a lot.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
And it wasn't even What was crazy is it wasn't
even so much against me. It was against somebody else
that and I was attached to that person, so they
went after both of us. So yeah, anyway, it was fun.
I learned a lot through that experience. I will say that,
So thank you for filing that complaint because.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
Now you know, maybe it's going to save you from
something even yep more.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
And I just wanted to say in the line to
any therapist or helping profession person, like this happens. Nobody
talks about it when it happens, because sometimes you can
feel like, oh my gosh, this is like shameful or whatever,
but it actually happens to more people than you think
because of just anybody can write a complain about anybody.
A podcast listener or somebody who doesn't like our podcast
(46:15):
could complain to the board about me and make something up.
Speaker 3 (46:20):
Well I sure hope not.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
Well yeah, I hope not too. But like anybody could
do it.
Speaker 4 (46:24):
I'll be your witness because I'm by your side every episode.
Speaker 3 (46:28):
Yeah, to my knowledge. Also, we have a disclaimer at
the beginning of our couch talks.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
Well, they could make a complaint. They could pretend that
they were a past client for something, you know what
I mean, Like, anybody can this is not to give
anybody ideas any ideas. Yeah, but it just is. I
think that's why don't panic, because people have to have
evidence to get you in trouble. For unless you're Clayton.
Speaker 4 (46:55):
I guess yeah, man, Tomorrow I get to listen to
an episode. So I'm listening to Love Trapped one episode
like every two weeks because I listened to it at
my LASH appointments and I don't want to cheat on
it with my LASH person Amy.
Speaker 3 (47:09):
We're both named Damie. We're both listening to it, and
we're making our way.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
I was gonna say, I think that you're gonna still
be listening to this by the time I have this baby.
I really do.
Speaker 4 (47:21):
Yeah, But I am starting to see things online so
I get a general idea what happens. But the podcast
just takes a deeper dive into the whole situation and
has audio from Court and it is wild where she's.
Speaker 3 (47:36):
Like, Judge, can I show?
Speaker 4 (47:39):
Can I stand up and show my pregnant belly? I
saw that clip on Instagram the other day. Obviously I
listened to one of it in the podcast, but it's
different to like see the actual footage of her from
the zoom.
Speaker 3 (47:51):
Court is it zoom on court. I don't know, like
video from the video trial where she's like trying to
stand up and clearly show that she has a belly,
but then the woman judge is like, no, we're good,
and I was like, oh, I a prosthetic. Yeah she
must or she was very very bloated. I think she
(48:12):
had on a prosthetic because she wasn't pregnant.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
Yeah, yeah, you can. Those are easy to come by.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yeah, that's what on maternal instinct she ordered a prosthetic.
Speaker 1 (48:23):
That that's another whole can of worms.
Speaker 3 (48:26):
I know.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Don't you think if you were the husband, you would
be like, let me feel your belly.
Speaker 4 (48:33):
Yeah, especially if my friends were speculating or there was
even an ounce of me. Thought like I would be
like take your.
Speaker 1 (48:39):
Shirt off right? Or like are they never shot?
Speaker 3 (48:43):
Like no, he said they weren't intimate.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
I know, But why don't not even think about like
showering with each other? But I mean sometimes Patrick's in
the shower and I have to get something out of
the bathroom.
Speaker 3 (48:53):
Yeah, Like, or when you're sleeping at night, be like
tickle tickle, and if she's like what are you doing?
Not just see what's in your belly and then like
rip it off and be like aha.
Speaker 1 (49:06):
I think there's a part of me that thinks that
he might have known more than he did. Do you
or do you think no?
Speaker 4 (49:12):
And like that he was in denial or what like?
I think he's just kinda I think he I think
he wanted his piece of land and she buy it
for him, and he was oblivious to a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (49:24):
Well, I think your half of that is where I
This is speculation, This is me not I'm not being
a therapist right now. I'm just talking as a human being.
But I do think she was giving him so much
it was in his benefit to go along. Now, I
don't do not think he thought what happened was going
to happen, Oh gosh.
Speaker 3 (49:43):
No.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
But I think he was playing along with her game
because it was really working out for him in the moment.
You know, he didn't have to do anything right. Yeah.
Oh wait, but sorry if I'm if I'm wrong, Wade,
I am so sorry. And you know what, we got
some other things to talk about.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
And teen Clayton never thought i'd say that.
Speaker 1 (50:01):
Did you watch him on The Bachelor? No?
Speaker 4 (50:04):
But just when I go to his page from time
to time to see if there's anything new, and then
he's just awkwardly dancing in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (50:10):
Or doing whatever.
Speaker 1 (50:11):
And people have a hip hop dancer.
Speaker 3 (50:13):
He is a hip hop dancer. And I will say
he's sort of grown on me. I kind of thought
he was, you know, it just wasn't my cup of tea. Yeah,
little yeah, but poor guy.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Yeah, he's very different from the wait situation like.
Speaker 4 (50:28):
Yeah, yeah, okay. Well, thank you for sending in your emails.
And if you're looking for a wedding venue, we recommend
clement time. Although we cannot provide a price quote. You
can hit us of it hey there at Feeling Things
podcast dot com, or you can call it and leave
us a voicemail eight seven seven, two oh seven, two
oh seven seven.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
We hope you have the day you need to have.
Bye Bye,
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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