Understanding the Drama Triangle: Why We Play Victim, Rescuer & Persecutor

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Good.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
All right, break it down.

Speaker 3 (00:05):
If you ever have feelings that you just won't Amy
and Cat got your cob and locking No, brother, ladies
and felts, do you just follow an the spirit where
it's all the front over real stuff, tell the chill
stuff and the.

Speaker 2 (00:19):
M but sway.

Speaker 3 (00:21):
Sometimes the best thing you can do it jes stop
you feel things. This is feeling things with.

Speaker 4 (00:28):
Amy and Cat.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Happy Tuesday. Welcome to feeling things. I'm Amy and I'm Cat.
And today we are doing a drama triangle sort of
deep dive. Is it a deep dive into the drama
triangle or just like school time?

Speaker 4 (00:42):
I'd call it an overview?

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Oh what? Oh?

Speaker 4 (00:45):
Over We're doing a what do they call it? High level?
We're not getting into.

Speaker 2 (00:50):
We're not going yeah, okay, so this is just shallow dive.

Speaker 4 (00:54):
And then if we need to do a deep dive,
we can. But I think that will hit. But we
need to hit.

Speaker 2 (00:58):
You know what you need to know by staying in
the kiddie pool. Yeah, it's safe.

Speaker 4 (01:03):
Where it's safe.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
It's like a hot tub. Hot tub is like the
safe part of the pool. We're not going deep.

Speaker 4 (01:09):
The hot tub is not is a different part of
the pool.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
I know it's generally safe, right, because it's not I guess.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
So I like hot tubs.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Some people have a weird relationship with them and they
don't like them, Like people don't like to get in
the hot tub because they can be gross.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
The last time I did something at a public resort,
it wasn't a hot tub, hop tub hot It wasn't
that a hot tub hot tub. It was a hot
spring hot tub. So it's natural from the earth. And
I think that the temperature of this particular spring was
one hundred and five, so that you kill everything. Yeah,

(02:02):
it was pretty hot, but it's snowing out. It's so cool.

Speaker 4 (02:05):
Well, I think most hot tubs are sanitary because don't
they have chlorine in them or chemicals or chemicals like
a pool.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Let's hope. So. And I feel like if we went
to the staff at any place, we'd be like, is
this being treated properly? They would be like, yes, we.

Speaker 4 (02:18):
Have to say that exactly, and they're like, okay, well,
so we're not in the hot tub, We're just in
the hot spring.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah. See, I was just creating a little drama. Yeah,
but the drama. You didn't like it either. You were
feeling feisty because I brought a hot tub.

Speaker 4 (02:32):
Well, I've already even feeling feisty.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
Is that your feeling other day?

Speaker 4 (02:36):
I don't feel feisty.

Speaker 1 (02:39):
I feel like I was coming off as feisty, but
that's not I didn't feel that.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
I felt frustrated.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
You you're frustrated. I almost would rather be feisty than
frustrated that I wasn't mad. Okay, what are you frustrated at? Abound?

Speaker 4 (02:58):
Can I share this? I can share this, I think so.

Speaker 1 (03:01):
I just like wanted to talk about my feeling of
the day, which was excited, and I was excited because
my birthday is coming up.

Speaker 4 (03:12):
And then you were like, your birthday will pass. Let's
be passed.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
You said, just like this, you said your birthday will
be passed.

Speaker 4 (03:18):
You can't talk about that.

Speaker 2 (03:20):
It's not how I said it. And you know it.

Speaker 4 (03:23):
I'm teeing up an example for the drama triangle, okay,
And you were just like, we can't talk about that.
It'll be passed. Nobody will want to hear about your birthday. Okay.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
See what Kat's doing here is she is making me
into the persecutor big time. Yeah, and she's getting to
be the victim here.

Speaker 4 (03:44):
So I can get my needs met, yes.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
Which her. The need that she has is to talk
about her birthday. And it's working because here we are,
we're talking about it. And what I would like to
say in regard to that is a long time ago,
we had a calendar meeting on how we wanted to
roll out episodes, and this is kind of behind the

(04:07):
scenes in the Weeds sort of stuff. But Kat's doing
a lot of video things and she was like, ooh,
our big feeling things episode, it'd be good if we
had that done a week in advance. So we've got
a lot of time to edit the clips and see
what we want to pull for socials and get it
on YouTube and whatnot. Yeah, okay, I get that too.
Also Houston, that gives him more time to edit as well.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Well.

Speaker 2 (04:26):
Turns out Houston has kept his same editing schedule, so
I don't think if we alter it it'll affect him
at all. But since we're recording a week out, yes,
when this airs, Kat's birthday will have passed.

Speaker 4 (04:39):
And nobody will have cared about it.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Nobody said that, but we do have an episode coming
out on your birthday, So I thought that Couch Talks
episode would be a great time to like bring up
your birthday, That's all I was saying. But I think
you're onto something because I want to just talk about
Stevenson's race. But this will air like way after that.
We can talk about our Thanksgiving plans. This is airing

(05:02):
way after that because stiring on like December eighth, ninth, whatever, whatever,
that Tuesday and ninth, the ninth, and you know, we
can revisit this. So now if it's no difference to you,
because I know it won't bother Houston, should we just
start recording our Tuesday episodes the Monday before. So everything's fresh, yeah,

(05:24):
and we are bringing in the freshest of the fresh.
We can talk about our lives in real times. This
is like so fresh. This is like right when the
vegetables arrive at the grocery store.

Speaker 4 (05:34):
No, it's right when they pick them off the tree. Yes,
the vine.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
You're the first come to the ground. Yeah, fresh, never frozen,
that kind of fresh.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Technically our episodes now are a little bit frozen. Yeah,
and we're gonna start giving them to you fresh. And
I think that podcasting gives you that flexibility to pre
tape in that way. I do come from a very
fresh live radio world, so that's probably why in my

(06:06):
brain I'm like, we're in the moment, we're doing things,
or if that has been like.

Speaker 4 (06:09):
We don't you want to confuse people?

Speaker 2 (06:11):
Yeah, so I was just I'm I'm down for that.
So now we have talked about your birthday, which is
what you wanted. Happy birthday, And then we came up
with a new plan that I think is going to
be better. But now we just have to get on
track to do do it well.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
I will say I really appreciate this plan because this
plan really I think was created for my benefit. But
I think I've learned I don't start editing the clips
until the week of Yeah, so does that matter?

Speaker 2 (06:43):
So yay, thanks for your patients listeners and walking through
that with us. And maybe you did see a little
bit of victim mode because Kat was really turning it
on and she made me out to be persecutor in
full transfer. And see that's not how our conversation really went.
Like it was for dramatization purposes, we acted that out.

(07:06):
So in the drama triangle, there's the victim, the persecutor,
and the the rescuer. Yeah, it's rarely how I show up.
So do you think I show up as the rescuer
a lot? I mean sometimes I kind of want to
control it and fix it, but I've been working on that.

Speaker 4 (07:23):
Well, it's not bad. Okay, I know we're not bad.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
I know it's not bad, but I I okay, Yeah,
we're getting ahead of ourselves.

Speaker 1 (07:30):
So I'll let you go, okay, because I think that
I want to talk about two things before we even
get to those roles.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
So before we proceed, though, is there anything else you
would like to say about your birthday? Because you did
see you were excited and we didn't really expand on
that feeling.

Speaker 4 (07:45):
Yeah, I'm excited about it and I just wanted everybody
to know it's coming up.

Speaker 2 (07:50):
On December fourth. So well, we'll talk about it in
couch Talks, which you heard last Thursday.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
It probably won't, Yes, we will. So now you're making
me talk about my birthday a lot. This is backfiring.

Speaker 2 (08:05):
Well, I've I planned on talking about your birthday in
that episode, but we just haven't recorded it yet.

Speaker 4 (08:11):
Oh thank you.

Speaker 2 (08:12):
Yeah, you just didn't know that I ruined the surprise.

Speaker 4 (08:14):
Were you going to bring out a cake and everything.

Speaker 2 (08:16):
No, I have a half a loaf of banana bread
I could bring in. I just wanted to say I
didn't really want to talk about my birthday.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
I think I just wanted to say I'm feeling excited
because currently I am feeling excited. That is my true
emotion right now, because my birthday is coming and I
enjoy my birthday. Although I will say sorry to feel
less excited than normal because turning thirty six isn't like ooho,
you know, yeah.

Speaker 2 (08:46):
But thirty six is three plus six is nine and
I don't know. It's just I'm trying to do something.

Speaker 4 (08:55):
We've a special number seven to sell my house, wasn't
it like.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Oh I think eight eight? Oh okay, well that's address numerology.

Speaker 4 (09:02):
Oh it's different time. Yeah, okay.

Speaker 1 (09:05):
Anyway, I'm just excited. Thank you for the opportunity to
talk about it.

Speaker 2 (09:08):
And what are you doing for your birthday? Because I
am going to be sadly out of town.

Speaker 4 (09:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
So my actual birthday birthday, I'm working. Usually I take
the day off, but I had to move my schedule
around this week, so I have to work. I get
to work on my birthday, and then I think I'm
just going to dinner with Patrick. But what we do
is we don't pick our birthday dinner. We plan for
the other person's birthday dinner, and we don't tell them

(09:35):
what it is until we show up there.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Oh okay, I like that.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, And then I'm really interested to see what he
got me because it came in like a month ago
and he's been really excited about it. So I don't
know if it's like it could be one of two things.
It could be something really cool, or it could be
something he like found on an Instagram ad.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
So isn't he hiding it in the garage or wasn't
he tinkering with it or working on it or something,
because didn't he say at some point you thought he
was like surprising me with something else, and he was like, no, no,
you could go in there, that's your birthday present.

Speaker 4 (10:05):
No he was. He spent like an hour. He went
downstairs and wouldn't let me come downstairs. He was in
the living room on his computer and he was like
on his computer for like an hour, and then I
came downstairs.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
I was like, can I come down now? And he
said yes, but don't come over here. And it was
like hiding his computer screen. I'm like, what item that
you're ordering from the internet takes you an hour? Maybe
he ordered me tickets to something, and like the tickets were.

Speaker 2 (10:28):
Going on and then also he couldn't get into a
corner of the room to where like you couldn't see
his screen. I guess not as he running up projector.

Speaker 1 (10:35):
But then it came in the mail. So it can't
be like tickets to something because they wuldn't mail those.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
What could it be? I don't know. Well, we're gonna
find out. Are you already know when this is hearing
you already know? That's fun that like I know, but
I don't know, but like right now I do know,
Like when people are hearing this, you already know.

Speaker 4 (10:55):
Current me doesn't know, but then like future.

Speaker 2 (10:57):
Current me does December ninth, you knows.

Speaker 4 (11:00):
Yeah, Okay, well I'll give you guys updated.

Speaker 1 (11:02):
He's gotten me a couple things off of like Instagram
ads that have been like really funny, So hopefully it's not.

Speaker 2 (11:08):
I can't wait to find out, and then I can't
wait to celebrate you once I'm back.

Speaker 4 (11:13):
Well you can just celebrate me now, Okay. Why don't
have anything you don't have to give me anything.

Speaker 1 (11:19):
What Yeah, no, yeah, okay, anyway, I'm done talking about
my birthday.

Speaker 2 (11:24):
Okay, okay, are you done talking about a birthday?

Speaker 4 (11:27):
Yes? All right. So we're talking about the drama tangle.

Speaker 1 (11:31):
And the reason we're doing this is because it's the holidays,
and when the holidays come, what comes with the holidays.

Speaker 2 (11:39):
Drama because you're around family period, and just like in general,
there's gatherings, there's stress.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
Yes, So the drama triangle is a type of unhealthy
pattern of communication that all of us engage in. So
I say that, I'm gonna say that right now because
we have a tendency to think I want to say
this kind I mean this very kindly. But like in general,
most of us have a tendency to think a little

(12:10):
bit more highly of our communication patterns than they probably
really are.

Speaker 4 (12:16):
We all do this. It is universal. So there's no
shame in playing this game.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
I have literally been every character, all three. I've played
all three roles. The thing with me is, I know
I can be all three. It's just sometimes I don't
know exactly in the moment when I'm doing it.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
Yeah, like I may.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Not have like I'll eventually have the awareness hopefully please,
or it may need to be brought to my attention
and then I'll be like, oh shoot, but it's not
because I know them. I think I am hopefully a
little more aware, but I definitely know that I partake
and I am I'm just not aware.

Speaker 4 (12:53):
Yeah, we all partake.

Speaker 1 (12:54):
The lesson in this is how to notice that you're
on it, so then you can get off of it,
not to like not ever get on it.

Speaker 4 (13:01):
I will get on it again.

Speaker 1 (13:02):
You will do it again. Everybody will do it again.
So there's that everybody does it.

Speaker 4 (13:07):
Now.

Speaker 1 (13:07):
Before we talk about the drama triangle itself, I wanted
to touch on two things that we've talked about but
we haven't really named them in this way that can
help you understand the drama trangle a little bit better.
And the one is the first one is fact versus story.
So when I say fact versus story, I imagine you

(13:27):
have some idea of what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, it's like, what's the data or the facts and
what's absolutely true and then what's the story that you've
made up around it?

Speaker 1 (13:35):
Yeah, And so all of the data in our life
can be put in two different categories, fact and story.
So Another way to look at that is the content,
which is the facts, and the context, which is the
stories we create.

Speaker 4 (13:50):
Around the facts.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
And most of what we all of us in general,
when we're talking about things, most of what we're talking
about is the context. We're usually talking in story versus
just talking about the facts of our lives. And I
want to give an example of this, because it's easy
to confuse.

Speaker 4 (14:09):
Facts and story.

Speaker 1 (14:11):
A lot of the things that we think are facts
are really just stories that we have created to make
us feel right about the other stories that we have.

Speaker 4 (14:20):
I feel like that's a little confusing.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
But so I was listening to this podcast I think
her name, I don't know who the guest name is,
but the host was eleas Loewen.

Speaker 4 (14:31):
Have you heard of her. She's an author and she's
also she gives me Brene Brown vibes. She is very
smart and like she she's an author and writes books
about like just like thought and her own theories and stuff.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
But she also is a student of work too. So
she did this podcast with I.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Really want to say. This woman's name is Courtney Smith
and it.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Is oh wow, yes, okay, and her podcast is called
it Pulling the Thread.

Speaker 4 (14:58):
Yes, okay.

Speaker 1 (15:00):
Her voice is also really nice to listen to, so
if you just like need a soothing voice, which Brene
Brown's voice is soothing too.

Speaker 4 (15:05):
Very I don't know why I brought them up. Oh,
I was listening to them.

Speaker 1 (15:09):
They talked about this too in an episode of her podcast,
and Courtney Smith said that usually there's only two facts
really to anything we're talking about, and then like the
rest we just kind of make up because facts are
pretty simple. So I'm going to give an example of
what facts versus story could look like and also pay
attention to, Like I'm gonna give a fact and then

(15:31):
I'm just gonna give stories that could be there.

Speaker 4 (15:33):
I want to show that, like, our stories could be
really helpful in motivating and encouraging, and our stories can
be very drama filled and.

Speaker 1 (15:43):
Fear based, and based on which one we go with
can totally change the trajectory of something with the same
exact facts.

Speaker 2 (15:53):
And I'm gonna ask you maybe to give an example.

Speaker 1 (15:54):
Of this after you hear me do this, Okay, So
listen to what I'm saying, but also think at the
same time, got it?

Speaker 4 (16:00):
Okay, So a fact right now?

Speaker 1 (16:01):
For me?

Speaker 4 (16:02):
I have struggled to get pregnant. Period.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
That's the fact I have not been able to get
pregnant on my own fact period. The stories I could
create about that, and maybe some of these I have
created could be I'm never going to be a mom.
My body doesn't work properly, I'm being punished for something
that I've done. God doesn't love me. My marriage is

(16:27):
going to suffer. I'm going to have extra conflict in
my marriage. I'm going to be too old to be
a mom. Or I could say things like God is
waiting for the perfect timing for me to have a kid,
or this is creating so much space for me to
be vulnerable and connect with my husband. This is going

(16:48):
to strengthen my marriage because of the things we're going through.
I'm going to learn so much about my body and
understand more about the reproductive system than I ever thought
I would.

Speaker 4 (17:00):
So do you see those two?

Speaker 1 (17:02):
And I could depending on where I am, because our
stories also help us make sense of the world. So
we usually have a level of story that we go with.
I'm getting ahead of myself. There's two ways we can
go with stories. We can go above the line, below
the line. Have you heard this okay?

Speaker 4 (17:22):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (17:23):
So above the line are stories that are very empowering, right,
and they're motivating, they're helpful, they allow us to be
an active participant in our life versus like life happening
to us. And then below the line is when I
am understanding things through a lens that, like the life
is happening to me, very fear based, and they get

(17:47):
you kind of stuck. So based on if I'm above
the line and below the line is going to shape
how I then proceed right and most of the time,
most of the time, again this is like take shame
out of it. We are wired to go below the line.
We're wired to think fear based, and I think that's

(18:08):
more of like think about how we were created, right,
we had to be aware of our surroundings and what
was going on so in order we could protect ourselves.
It's the same idea that like fear helps us protect ourselves,
therefore we're.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
Easy to go there.

Speaker 1 (18:21):
But when we go fear based, we end up cutting
ourselves off from any other need outside of keeping myself safe.
So learning, exploring, play, connection, all of that doesn't get met.
I'm just making sure I'm protected. So I think if
I go back to those stories, like the ones that

(18:43):
I said first that were examples of being below the line,
those would protect me from probably feeling my real feelings. Right, So, like,
if God doesn't want me to be a mother, it's like, okay,
well then just accept that and like figure something else out.
You can't like sit in the sadness that this is happening, right,

(19:03):
or this is going to create conflict and struggle in
your marriage. Doesn't allow me to actually see that this
conflict in our marriage is creating all these.

Speaker 4 (19:13):
Opportunities for us too. So as I was saying that.

Speaker 5 (19:17):
Did you have you thought of like a fact? Have
you thought of like a fact?

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Well, something that I've been thinking about recently, and I
don't know if it's ever since my boyfriend said to
me after I was sharing with him some overwhelm that
I was having, And I think it's because I know
our relationship is progressing and I have some fear around Well,
I didn't get it right the first time. You know,
my first marriage, even though it's not that it was
wrong though it was a very long marriage and we

(19:58):
had struggles getting pregnant, but we ended up adopting, so
that ended up being a beautiful thing that happened from
that relationship and we have a good co parenting relationship now.
But I think as my current relationship progresses, I am
feeling a lot of overwhelm of like, oh my gosh,

(20:19):
what are we doing? And I need to slow down
or I have some fear that's popping up. And he
said to me, like, you have somebody right here that
cares for you and loves you, and once your kids
are doing well, Like he just was going through all
these things and I was kind of in a negative mode,
but he didn't really know what was deep down inside

(20:42):
of me, and so I shared that as a little
preface to the I am divorced period.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
That's a fact.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's a fact, and that's something I never thought I
would be ever. And from that, like some of the
things are like, yeah, am I now worthy of another relationship?
Like yeah, because I wasn't a good wife the first time?
You know, that's a story that that's a story. Yeah

(21:10):
I was. Yeah, And how could we have adopted these
kids and then split up? So now we've ruined their
lives story because you know, when my dad left at nine,
he ruined my life. I'm just kidding. It, which is
also a story, also a story. Yes, because kids are resilient,
adults are resilient. I have seen it firsthand and now

(21:33):
been and night co parenting, and the healthiest way possible
for us is showing that we're doing the best by
our kids. And I think this is better for them
than maybe been an icting together for them. Because then
that was the line, that story above the line, that's
above the line. And there's been a lot of healing

(21:53):
that has been able to take place because of the
separation of the divorce. So there is above the line
stuff that has happened, but there are below the line
stuff of like woe is me? Or why did this
have to happen to me instead of for me? And
I even think of like a silly example, cryocats in
here running the cameras. But we were driving to the

(22:16):
Tennessee game in Knoxville, and I was trying to get
there early because we were meeting my boyfriend and he
was tailgating and some friends and he wanted me to
meet some people. And it's where he went to law
school and his wife that passed away from cancer, she
went to her undergrad there, so he was with some
of her friends and I really wanted to get there
early to see all these people, and we just wasn't

(22:37):
gonna happen, Like we left later and then we missed
an exit and it set us back another twelve minutes
and I was like, oh, well, now we're really not
going to make it, and I was feeling bumped, and
then Cavs like she went and did the little U
turn to turn around and add the twelve minutes, and
she's like, well, I'm just going to look at it
as like that protected us from something like if we
had stayed on that path, like who knows, maybe this

(22:58):
now took us out of which that's just a way
of looking at it above the line, like who knows?
Do we know that that is really what happened? No,
but it does help give you a different perspective that
then allows you to take a deep breath and then
just proceed and be in the moment instead of like, oh,
why does this happen to me? Why do I always
miss the exits and I'm not paying attention to the map?

(23:19):
And then you spiral, So that's.

Speaker 1 (23:23):
Very and then that gets you any example, that's a
great example actually because it will make sense as we
talk about the drama trangle, because that is an example
of you be feeling playing this victim role of.

Speaker 4 (23:35):
On the drama trangle.

Speaker 1 (23:36):
Yeah, and so I give all of this pre context
because we didn't even have to talk about all that
to talk about the drama trangle.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
But I think it is very helpful.

Speaker 1 (23:44):
And when I heard them talk about it on that podcast,
it gives a whole different way to think about what
being on the drama trangle means. Because if you can
understand the stories, and you can understand that you are
writing stories over and over and over again and you
were create in all these stories, you can have so
much more power in one how you think, which is

(24:06):
then going to.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
Shape how you operate throughout the world.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
So if I can take ownership of these stories, I
can either acknowledge like, yeah, I'm writing these stories and
they're not so great and that's why I'm sitting here,
or I can acknowledge like, oh, I'm writing these stories.
That means I can write them this way and I
don't have.

Speaker 4 (24:21):
To sit here anymore.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
So these are very either way. Even either when you choose,
at least you're owning it and choosing it. It gives
us agency. So let's take those two ideas and then
talk about how the drama triangle works.

Speaker 4 (24:36):
And this is actually really simple.

Speaker 1 (24:38):
It's a like sometimes can feel very complex, but this
pattern of relationship in communication is very simple. It all
stems from avoiding being direct and asking for your needs
to be met, which again I'm just gonna keep saying
this over and over. This is normal, This is normal,

(24:58):
This is normal. Live in a world that loves to
avoid any type of conflict, and sometimes asking for our
needs is conflict. And so even me, like I was
being kind of funny, but me playing that role of
victim earlier about like Amy wouldn't let me talk about
my birthday.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Which is a story, which is a story.

Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yes, it's a story. It's me saying that.

Speaker 1 (25:21):
So I couldn't say I really because I didn't want
to say I really don't like this schedule anymore because
I feel like we can't talk about things in real time.

Speaker 4 (25:31):
Is there any way we could revisit that?

Speaker 1 (25:33):
Yeah, this is a low stakes example, but that's an
example of me being vulnerable.

Speaker 2 (25:38):
And the the reason why it's like that is such
a simple asset's like no drama. Yeah, So it's like
if you do that, yeah, you're not in the drama triangle.
That's why it's the it's the perfect name because when
you avoid the direct line of communication and intentional dialogue,
like we've talked about before in healthy communication, that's when
the drama comes in.

Speaker 4 (25:58):
When the drama comes in the end.

Speaker 2 (26:00):
And while you say it is very normal, I will
also say it's so helpful. Oh yeah, it's so like
once you see it and it clicks with certain relationships
where you understand where you and you can dance right,
Like you'll probably get to that. But like, once you
see it, you almost can't unsee it unless sometimes.

Speaker 4 (26:21):
You're in it, unless you really don't want to and
you want.

Speaker 2 (26:23):
To avoid it. Like I said, sometimes I don't have
awareness and then I need to be told and I'm like,
oh shoot, yeah, you're right. But I'm glad I have
the knowledge so that I can hopefully I'll remain in
this space. Like I don't know, I could go on
some un healthy path and not want the feedback, but
like right now, I welcome that. Like if you, as
my friend were to say hey me, hey hey me,

(26:46):
hey me, hey me, hey Amy, I really feel like
right now we're doing a little dance. And that's what
even my kid's therapist, my son had a thervious once
and he always called, don't do the dance. He's inviting
you to tango and you are just you're You're like, okay,
what time I'll be there, Let's dance, Let's do it.
Turn the music up, and I would do the dance.

(27:08):
And I remember too, like Ben and I and we
were working through like we were still married and we
were going through some stuff with our son and be
I would look at Ben and I'd be like, you're
doing the dance. The first of don't dance. You're you're
doing the dance like I. Well, I mean, I would
do it too, but he would probably call me it's
it's easier to see it in your other people. So
if Ben were here, he would say, oh yeah. And

(27:30):
there's definitely times I would look at Amy and be like, Amy,
stop dancing. You're doing the dance. And once you start
seeing the dance, you're like, Okay, you that dance is
not cool. But that's where sometimes if we're used to chaos,
so we get a little bit bored. We're kind of
like I kind of feel like dancing.

Speaker 4 (27:49):
Which happens, which does happen?

Speaker 2 (27:51):
It happens to guilty, Yeah, guilty in it.

Speaker 1 (27:53):
So as we explain these three roles, and I will
preface this too, you can do this dance by and
you can just go around and do all these three
things by yourself, or you can triangulate somebody and be
on this triangle with other people. So you can as
you're listening, you can contextualize this in both ways. There
is a role in here that is the victim, and

(28:15):
I feel like it is very important to always give
the preface that this is different. There are times when
people are victims of their circumstances, things have happened to them.
There is a place in time where you are a victim.
That is not what we're talking about. What we're talking
about is something that's more closely tied to victim consciousness,

(28:36):
which is playing the role of victim when there is
a healthy, easy way out of the situation you're in.

Speaker 4 (28:42):
So I just don't want to hear.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
I don't want anybody to hear that we're victim blaming
or shaming or anything like that, because these are those
are two separate things.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Apples and orange and oranges.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Yes, I wish there almost was like a different word
for it. So in the drama triangle, so pattern of
unhealthy communication, we get on this thing.

Speaker 4 (29:02):
We do this dance when we are.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Avoiding or want to avoid asking for what our needs,
are asking for our needs because of a fear around
something usually tied to being vulnerable. And I'm going to
give some alternate names too that I like a little better.
So there's the victim, the rescuer, and the persecutor. The
victim if you're explaining this with families a lot of

(29:25):
times all or if I'm explaining this with a client
that is going to take this home and talk about
it with like her kids or somebody younger, I like
to give them the name's victim is the helpless baby,
which I guess we did find another name for it.
Then there is the rescuer, which is the bossy helper,
and then the persecutor is the blaming bully, which another

(29:49):
word for persecutor also is just like the villain, like
they are the villain in this story. So when you
hear all of those, is there one that you're like,
that one sounds nice or that one sounds like is
there one that you're like, I don't want to do that,
or is there one that you're.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
More I mean now, earlier we brought up the rescuer
and I was like, I don't know that I do
that one a lot, and you were like hmm, and
I was like, well, shoot, maybe I do. Which you
feel free. You have full permission to say whatever you
want to say about me. I like with the mics on,
I wish I was more. I think it'd be better

(30:24):
to be the rescuer out of any of those, like
I would rather show up as the rescuer, Like, yes,
bossy helper sounds low, but I'd rather the bossy helper
than the whiny, helpless baby. You're saying helpless baby, but
I don't know that. I always say helpless they're not. Yeah,
because they're whiny. Okay, your whiny baby. And then because

(30:48):
I've been the whiny baby with a entangled in a
terrible relationship with a bossy helper and I was a
whiny baby. And then when when I tried to set
a boundary about it, they turned me into the persecutor.

Speaker 1 (31:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
I was so into the drama triangle at the time
that I could see it clear as day I saw
it happening. It was unfolding before my eyes, and I
remember like telling my therapists, I was like, you're not
gonna believe it. They're gonna believe it. I know for
a fact that I stayed healthy in my communication and
I stayed on my side of the street. And the
response I got back, which you know, the response I
got back was had flipped me. They immediately went And

(31:27):
that's why I know you can dance in the triangle.
It's like they immediately went from helper or rescuer to
now they're the victim, which I was the victim before.
I didn't want to be, but I was choosing to
stay there like that was that was our.

Speaker 1 (31:42):
Thing, you didn't want to be. But also there is
what we called secondary gains. So a lot of times
I'm talking to somebody and they're talking about a pattern
of behavior that they're continue to do and they're like,
I don't want to do this anymore.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
And I said, okay, well what do you get out
of it?

Speaker 1 (31:57):
They're like, I don't get anything, And then I have
to ask again, Okay, but like if you did get something,
what would it be. Because we don't continuously do something
over and over and over again unless there's something that
we get.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
Oh, I for sure had gains from it one hundred percent.
And also I was avoiding, which is a game for
what I really Yeah, like I didn't have to really
speak up. And I can also see in this relationship
like they would have benefited by speaking up for what
they needed too, like they were avoiding as well, and

(32:30):
I hate that for them. We were both doing it well.

Speaker 1 (32:34):
And I'm glad that you're saying all of that because
the reason I kind of like using the other names
is because all of these roles are in their own
right victim.

Speaker 4 (32:46):
Nobody's actually getting their needs met here. Nobody is.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
We're getting a version of our needs met. We're getting
that secondary gain. So like I might not get if
my need is to talk about my birthday, I'm struggling
with an example right here, but my need is to
talk about my birthday. By me playing the victim role,
I get to gain the idea that like I'm not

(33:09):
doing anything wrong, and it's like all your fault and
by you you didn't do this, But let's say that
you were, like nobody cares about your birthday, then like
you don't like you end up having like the blame
is not on you either. You're like, my hands are clean.
Nobody wants to hear about it. It's not me, you
know what I mean? And like that's kind of me, right,

(33:30):
I would get my feelings hurt, and then I could
blame you for being mean to me, and then we
would have a whole other issue that has nothing to
do with me talking about my birthday. Right, So let's
talk about each role individually and then we'll come back.
And I have a really good example I thought of
while I was watching a Netflix Christmas movie today.

Speaker 4 (33:50):
So we're gonna come back to that, Okay, mery xmis
have you watched it?

Speaker 2 (33:53):
I have watched it.

Speaker 1 (33:53):
Yeah, okay, so then you're gonna know Okay, actually we might.
I'm gonna quiz you. I'm gonna ask you to place the.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
Roles and this is the one where that Lisha's Silverstone, yes, which.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
Like blast from the past, all right, and Melissa johan
Hark yes crazy she is her sister or is her
sister in the movie? Oh that was her sister.

Speaker 2 (34:09):
I thought, so, well, you might not want to quiz
me because it's paying attention. No, no, no, I'm.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Pretty sure that was her sister. I might not, it
doesn't matter. I was doing multiple things anyway. Okay, so
let's talk about the persecutor first. So the persecutor is
I think my experience is like they get like the
bad rap in this triangle, like they're like the mean one.
They're the ones that are causing the problem essentially, but

(34:36):
they're also saying, this is not me, this is you.
So if I'm the persecutor, I'm blaming you for whatever
the issue is. But if you are not the persecutor,
you're then blaming me. We're all trying to shift blame.
So then nobody has to do anything. So if I'm
blaming you and you're blaming me, then guess what.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
Nothing's getting downe nothing.

Speaker 4 (34:57):
I don't have to change and you don't have to change.

Speaker 1 (34:59):
And I think that all also as a reason why
a lot of times we have the same kind of
arguments over and over and over again, because if we
do not realize that we are stuck in a cycle
of story, we don't realize that we have agency to
shift that. And I'm not just going to like like, okay,
never mind, my story is not real if I don't
realize that I'm in this cycle.

Speaker 4 (35:20):
Does that make sense?

Speaker 2 (35:21):
Yeah, But that's why I think talking about the triangle
is so helpful, because I was in the cycle for
years but didn't know this concept existed.

Speaker 4 (35:34):
Yes, so you're thinking my story, my story, my story.

Speaker 2 (35:38):
I just thought I just thought, well, this is just
how it is, Like, this is just their relationship, and
this is our cycle, and this is what we do
and I don't know how to stop it. But then
once you realize where you each are and the roles
that are being played, then you do have the ability
to stop it. And sometimes it might be too gone

(36:00):
to where it's like yeah, but that's a different conversation. Yeah,
it's just interesting. Like, so I'm excited to hear more
about what you have to say about it, because I haven't.
I guess I've probably first learned about it three or
four years ago.

Speaker 4 (36:15):
You've known about it for longer.

Speaker 2 (36:16):
No, oh, No, I learned about it in my couple's
therapy with Ben. Maybe I just that feels so long ago,
and it was when we were separated, we were not
still together, so it was twenty twenty one.

Speaker 1 (36:40):
So the persecutor, they're like the bad cop essentially, they're angry,
they're very blamey. It's all your fault, the persecutor. Also,
like if there's ever any like gossip or like trash
talking or bad talking gossip in the sense of like

(37:02):
in an ill intentioned way, that's a persecutor role. Like
that's some of your being a persecutor if you're if
you're doing that. So if you are with your if
there is an argument within your friend group and you're
off gossiping and talking about how SUSICQ did X y
Z and can you believe it, you're being a persecutor.
You are blaming another person for an issue or conflict

(37:23):
that you have versus going and speaking your needs and
talking that out.

Speaker 2 (37:26):
So I mentioned earlier, since you're talking about being the
actual persecutor, that I was then put into the persecutor
role when I set a boundary, but I wasn't actually
the persecutor. So that like talk about that because I
have not, I don't know that I've ever talked that
through like how I I wasn't, but I was made

(37:48):
to be with the response that I got and the
the story that was now being told for their laid
me out as a persecutor. And it's just because I
shifted the well.

Speaker 4 (38:02):
Because you're fighting over being the victim.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
I messed with the game.

Speaker 1 (38:04):
So that person doesn't want to be the persecutor, so
they're making you the persecutor. But then you, by saying
they made me the persecutor, is then making that person
the persecutor because you guys are both fighting to be
the victim, even though you wouldn't actually admit that in
the moment.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
To be clear, I never said to I never responded
in a way. I'm just sharing that with you. I
never said you're making me the persecutor. I never know that, But.

Speaker 1 (38:29):
In your head that's happening. Does that make sense? Yeah?
What the And I'm explaining this. You have to think
about this in two contexts. You're on this triangle by
yourself and you're just traveling around, and then also you
can be on this trigle with other people.

Speaker 4 (38:43):
Okay, so the persecutor is.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Somebody who is never going to do anything to fix
or solve the problem, but they are going to criticize
and find a problem.

Speaker 4 (38:57):
It's not me, it's you. That's what they say.

Speaker 2 (39:01):
That's a persecuter.

Speaker 1 (39:02):
Okay, Okay, Now nobody wants to be that one for sure.
That's the one that people are like, ah, that never
be me.

Speaker 2 (39:08):
No.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
We also again we do this to ourselves as well,
so that's persecuter. Then we have the rescuer. But you
also usually have like a start gate position, so there's
usually a role that you gravitate towards and then no
matter what, once you're on this, you're going to do
it all. So that's just to take some Like if
you're listening to this and you're like, I don't want
to be that way, just take a deep breath and

(39:31):
release the shame. Because if you do one of these,
you do all of them, and all of us do them,
so nobody is alone.

Speaker 2 (39:39):
One ticket to drama town. Please. So you're saying, like
when we when we hop on the ride, we're that
we typically oh, start with, we have a station we
typically go to first.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
It's a start gate. It's like easy for me to
get on in that.

Speaker 2 (39:53):
I mean, mine's for sure, victim, Okay, I can hop
on there real quick.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
I was going to say, I feel like you are
in my experience of you, which you can also this
could be different in different experiences, but like in my
experience of you, I feel like it's I've seen you
easier to jump on in the rescuer.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
Well, that's apparent because you said that earlier about me,
and I'm like, really, tell me more.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
I just see you in that context.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
But also like maybe you were already on the triangle
and I just see you in that rescue position more.

Speaker 4 (40:21):
That makes sense. I get on this triangle usually. Well,
now that I'm.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Like revisiting this, I used to always say, like it's
easy for me to get on as the rescuer. I
think I honestly can get on as the persecutor pretty easily.

Speaker 2 (40:37):
No comments, I don't think. I don't. I think from
stories that you tell me, I love to blame somebody.

Speaker 4 (40:44):
I see that.

Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, but not because I've experienced it from you.

Speaker 4 (40:48):
Okay, and I love to blame somebody, you know what
I mean.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
Yeah, Well, you don't like being told what to do?

Speaker 4 (40:55):
Yeah? Ever, yeah, so it's like, can you believe this?

Speaker 2 (41:00):
Oh yeah, but then you like come back around, You're rational.

Speaker 4 (41:04):
It's just what I'd like to get on that trend
for a little bit. Yeah, So back to the rescuer.
The rescuer plays like the good cop to the persecutor's
bad cop. They give codependent vibes.

Speaker 2 (41:16):
Oh that's what you thought that was me. I didn't
say I do sometimes to give codependent vibes.

Speaker 4 (41:21):
And they end up playing like a martyr role.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
Oh yeah, I've been a martyr too.

Speaker 4 (41:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:26):
So they forego all of their needs to solve somebody
else's needs.

Speaker 4 (41:32):
Is that okay, so you're relating.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
Uh, this was more so in my marriage. Uh, at
the end of it. And I won't ever forget what
one of my therapists said to me, Like I I
was like, I can't, I can't do that, like I,
I will just stay in this forever. And then she
said to me, oh, you sweet martyr. And I remember
I was pacing in my backyard at my other house,

(41:54):
like I remember exactly, and she has an accent and
she goes, oh you sweet Mata, and I was like, huh,
it almost just clicked. It clicked, and I was like,
and that's what I either one of us would have
been doing in that situation. I mean been too. And
this isn't just all specific too. My marriage. There was

(42:15):
a lot of things happening, but I realized like, oh wow, okay, yeah,
I need to there's a lot to make an actual
choice for myself, not just for somebody.

Speaker 1 (42:27):
Else, which I was gonna say, like, there's a lot
of guilt involved in the rescuer and you use that
on yourself, like I feel guilty for choosing myself. The
problem is we cannot spend our lives fixing other people's problems,
and a lot of times when we're doing this, that
other person doesn't really want their problem to be fixed

(42:49):
because if you give them a real solution, then that
victim has to actually do something, and we haven't gotten
exactly to the victim, but the victim doesn't actually.

Speaker 4 (42:57):
Want to do anything.

Speaker 1 (42:58):
They want to play the victim because if I am
the victim, there's nothing I can do. Sorry, But if
you give them a solution that's debunked, so they'll find
an excuse. So then you'll hustle or then you'll become
the persecutor because you're like, I gave you a solution,
and duh duh, du du don this is your fault
and you're here because of blah blah blah. So not
that you would say it like that, but that's how

(43:19):
you can switch really easy. And I can I get that,
like if I'm working really hard to help you in
some way and you keep giving me excuse out of
excuse after excuse after excuse, I'm going to get exhausted
and frustrated and angry and resentful, and then i might
lash out at you, and then I'm going to blame

(43:40):
you for me feeling like this, even though I could
just be like, okay, you don't want my help, bye bye.
But that's really hard because of the stories we have
around your responsibility, maybe even to this person or the
situation or the world. So rescuer is a tough role
because you really feel like you are doing the right thing,

(44:03):
but you're not helping, and you're definitely not helping yourself.
I love that she called you a sweet martyr.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Oh you sweet Mata, and you're like, wait what, Okay,
it's weird. It's interesting right when I thought back to
that story, which I mean, I've told it before, but
that was a few years ago for sure, and I'm
instantly transported to like talking on the phone, pacing in
my backyard. Ye, that exact conversation with her. And there's
not many times I can remember like exactly where I

(44:30):
was and what I was doing when I had a
specific conversation you.

Speaker 4 (44:33):
Know well, and also like this is because again we're
all fighting to be the victim.

Speaker 1 (44:38):
It's some regard. When you're in that space, you also
can flip. You can flip to the persecutor. You also
can flip to be the victim of like I've tried
everything and nothing works, and then you become this helpless
baby or the whiny baby as you would say, when
really there's a solution but you just don't want to
take it.

Speaker 4 (44:57):
Okay, So then we have the victim. And when you
hear that word victim again, victim consciousness, I'm not talking
about actual victims. What kind of comes to mind for you? Like,
what feelings do you get when you think about the victim?
What things pop into your head? Does your body react?

Speaker 2 (45:15):
Okay, well, I can only speak to a personal experience
where I feel like, because you have to understand when
I had the Drama Triangle revelation, victim mode was definitely
where I was dancing a lot. So my brain keeps
going to this example, so I'm just gonna roll with it.
I it was definitely in a role. You're in a role,

(45:38):
like it was part of the dynamic. So we're playing
a part. Yes, like it would be very laying it
all out, like all the things that are going on,
like sort of trauma dumping in a way, but taking
up a lot of that space. But I thought that's
what I needed to do for and then there would

(46:02):
be like rescuing that would happen, and then that was
that that you know so much, So like I wasn't
able to show up for that person and really any
other way, even when I kept trying, like I would try,
or I would think I'd be trying, but that wasn't
my role. So I don't even think they thought that's
what I wanted, but deep down I did. And sometimes

(46:22):
I would hang up the phone. I'd be like, why
did I just talk about myself for twenty minutes and
all that was going on, because there was a lot happening,
But I just would is that making sense of? Like
that was the victim role for me, of laying it
all out, of all the things, and then there was
some swooping in to help so that fixed the situation

(46:44):
or make it better. And I don't know that I
necessarily needed that. I wasn't looking, but it was just.

Speaker 4 (46:48):
But what were you looking for?

Speaker 2 (46:50):
Connection.

Speaker 1 (46:51):
So you named a story in there, like in order
to be connected to this person, I had to be
this little baby bird who needed somebody to fix them
or always I'm making the stuff up, but like always
had a problem that needed to be talked out. I
have to do this in order to have connection in life.

Speaker 2 (47:07):
Like it wasn't fun for me, Like I am aware
of it. You have it thought I wasn't enjoying it either,
Like it was very perplexing to me. So then it
was also exhausting, and I'm sure they were exhausted too,
and they weren't getting needs met. And so you're right.
It's like if you have the awareness, then you can
we could have fixed it maybe a long time ago,
but then it got to where we couldn't fix it.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
So yeah, so you're having this story around like in
order to be connected to this person, I have to
play this role.

Speaker 4 (47:34):
It doesn't feel very good, but you were still like
the story.

Speaker 1 (47:39):
That you created around the like the facts of what
we're going on in your life was below the line
example versus just being able to own this or I've
created this story. It doesn't have to be this way.
What would happen if I said to this person. I'm
feeling stuck and this relationship is really important to me. Therefore,
I think I need X, Y Z and name something.

(48:02):
Who knows it's We don't know what would have happened,
but it would have given you an opportunity to get
off of this triangle, to get out of this dance
where you even if that relationship didn't end up being
what you wanted it to be, you didn't have to
keep playing that game anymore.

Speaker 2 (48:16):
So, Yeah, there's a lot I learned in my that
couple's therapy that just helped in a lot of areas
in my life.

Speaker 1 (48:24):
Yeah, and so the victim is it's I mean, they're
all interesting roles because essentially we don't want to be
any of them, but like the victim is the one
that we all are, Like I don't want to be that,
but you really, subconsciously really are wanting to be you know.

Speaker 2 (48:37):
So you know the part of me that gets real defensive,
isn't that my victim mode?

Speaker 4 (48:42):
Yeah? So see, well it depends.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
The defensiveness can also be like persecutor, like it's not
my fault, it's your fault because it's.

Speaker 2 (48:50):
I don't know that my defensiveness is.

Speaker 1 (48:53):
Well your defensiveness. I think in general, defensiveness could be
different things.

Speaker 2 (48:56):
My defensiveness is like we use that dow water example too,
Like I wasn't really saying like, it's not my fault,
but she was like, would you would you like some
water for your dog. Now we're going back a few months.
People don't even know this story because that's a totally
different episode, but a woman offered water to my dog.
But I was embarrassed and thought she was like judging
me for having my dog out on hot day, so

(49:19):
I wouldn't accept the water. She walked away and I
was with my boyfriend and I was just like, oh,
she's probably like, you idiot, why'd you bring your dog?
And he's like, she didn't say that, she just offered
you water. Like so I wasn't saying it's not your
fault or it's not my fault, it's your fault. Like
my defensiveness wasn't that I was just getting defensive of
like the people I get defensive that I'm being judged.

Speaker 4 (49:42):
Nobody was judging you exactly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
I think defensiveness can show up in different ways depending
on Yeah, like how it's who you are and how
it's coming up in that example. Defensiveness in general doesn't
just mean this, but good callback shout out, shout out.

Speaker 2 (49:58):
Should a lady who tried to should To this day,
I will say, I should have taken the water. I'm sorry, Kara.
Well now you have learned, so don't get on this
triangle with yourself.

Speaker 4 (50:09):
Give yourself grace. So these are all the roles.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
Okay, before I haven't confused anybody.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Well, this is something that like is so simple that
it's so confusing, if that makes any sense at all.
And it's confusing because we don't like when we think
about this, then we're doing the like dance and we're
making all these connections. So if you like would write
it out, it would make perfect sense. I did this,
then this happened. Then I did this, then this happened,
and you would be able to see it very clearly.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
And I would say, if you're just now taking this
in and you realize it in a relationship, like I
don't know that right away, I would go to the
person and be like, we're in a drama triangle. You're
the persecutor and I'm the rescuer. You know, I'm the
helper and you're mean, like or you know, like just

(50:57):
taking like it, talking about it in a thoughtful way
of like, hey, I just started thinking about I listened
to this podcast. I just started thinking about this, and
I'm just reflecting upon some of our latest interactions and like,
what are what's your experience with it, because here's what
I am and I would I feel like we might
be dancing a little and I don't. I want to

(51:19):
see if you feel the same way and that way
it's inviting them into it and not that like you've
listened to this podcast and come to all these conclusions
and now you know everything, or if you are involved
in therapy, like take this to your therapist and see
like if like you said, taking down the notes, like
that's what I had many many many sessions after my

(51:41):
couple's therapy with Ben, with my personal therapist about my
roles and how I was showing up. Yeah, and I
tried to carefully talk through it before, like.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
You just well, and you don't have to because you're
going to notice this pattern with people that you don't
have intimate relationship.

Speaker 2 (52:00):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, like I don't. I'm so glad you
said that. I'm so glad you said that because I
made it like you should talk to people about it.
But to clarify, there are so many people I am
and have been in dances with and they don't know, right, So, yeah,
they may know, and maybe they're not saying anything. Yeah,
but like I know that I know, but it's not
worth a conversation.

Speaker 1 (52:20):
Well, there's ways to kind of handle this without having
to have that conversation. Now, I will say, like, if
you have a partner or a really close friend, or
you're really you have a really close relationship with a
boss or something like that, and it feels safe and
natural to talk about this thing, that talk about it,
because I think there's so much you can learn from
having two people communicating about it, and there are ways

(52:44):
that you can take all.

Speaker 4 (52:45):
Of this drama triangle.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
Really the purpose of it is to show you that
you can take ownership of your own life and you
can ask for your needs to be met, because once
you get I don't know if I said this, but
the reason a lot of people are fighting to be
the victim is because the victim is the one that
gets their needs met without asking for them to be met.

(53:17):
The reason a lot of people are fighting to be
the victim is because the victim is the one that
gets their needs.

Speaker 4 (53:22):
Met without asking for them to be met.

Speaker 1 (53:25):
So like, duh, I want to be that again, these
all have versions of victimness in them.

Speaker 2 (53:30):
Question, can the rescuer be getting certain needs met if
they have a I want to be involved and fix everything?

Speaker 4 (53:40):
Yes, but mentality they can.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
And also remember that rescuer is always going to end
up as the victim no matter I don't know if
I said this either. No matter what you start as,
you're going to end up as the victim if you
don't get off of this triangle. Okay, at some point
now that will shift again, but like you're going to
do that. But yeah, I think when you're talking about
rescuing and somebody being like a martyr, there is something

(54:05):
that's the secondary gang we get right, so or this
like fulfillment.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
I'm thinking of people that love, like if.

Speaker 1 (54:12):
You're a two like a helper, But remember the when
you're the rescuer and you're helping the victim, the victim
doesn't actually want help, right, so the fulfillment doesn't usually come,
and that's why you then move.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
Then you get exhausted, and then that's and then you
start giving the silent treatment.

Speaker 4 (54:30):
Yeah, I started speaking both.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
That's what happened to me.

Speaker 4 (54:35):
So I also probably do that too. I love a
good silent treatment.

Speaker 1 (54:40):
So I was, well, I was talking about you. So
there's a couple of ways to get off of this triangle.
And is there Before I go into that, Oh no,
before I go into that, let's talk about Mary x meus.

Speaker 4 (54:58):
That's the name of the movie, right, Mary.

Speaker 2 (55:00):
Yeah, okay, because it's she's having Christmas with her ex.

Speaker 1 (55:04):
Okay, So spoiler alert, if you're waiting to watch this
movie that you're gonna have no idea how it ends
because it's very different than every other Christmas holiday movie.
Then skip forward sixty seconds.

Speaker 2 (55:18):
No, that was sarcasm yea too. Also, it's been out
for a few weeks on Netflix, so I.

Speaker 4 (55:26):
Thought it was brand new. I also thought maybe it
was like an older.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
Movieh it was one of the first releases, so maybe
two weeks. Well, by the time this airs.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
If you haven't watched it yet, that's we can't do
anything about that. So thinking about that movie, do you
have any idea of why I would bring that up?
Think about the two main characters, the husband and the
ex husband ex wife.

Speaker 2 (55:47):
Will you learn at some point that she put off
some of her dreams and that she wanted to go
to Boston or something, and that like she seemed like
a rescue.

Speaker 4 (56:00):
Yes, so it's this couple.

Speaker 1 (56:03):
There's a doctor and then she was I think architect
or something in that realm there're she had these big
dreams to have this big career, so she moved with
her husband to the small town. She gave up her
dreams to build a life with this man, and then
he ended up being kind of addicted to his job
and would miss out a lot of stuff. So they
end up getting divorced. And then you find throughout the

(56:23):
movie that like neither of them really wanted to get divorced.
They both were still in love with each other, but
she was resentful of him because she didn't speak what
she really needed, and he was resentful of her because
she was doing things that bothered him.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
But he never really shared any of that.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
And actually, I can't spoil this movie because I'm only
halfway through.

Speaker 2 (56:45):
Oh, so you don't even know if I sure know
what happens.

Speaker 4 (56:47):
But I have a feeling I know what happens.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
And that's a perfect example of if she would have
actually said, hey, I need you to like be home
more and I want to go back to work, and
is there a way we can figure this out? Who knows,
they could have stayed together in the end, and maybe
they maybe they ended up doing that. And if he
would have said, hey, there's a couple of things that

(57:09):
you do at home that make me not want to
come home and that's why I'm working more, she could
have taken a look in the mirror and looked at
what she was doing and say, oh, I can make
some concessions here so we can both get our needs met.
But they never had that conversation, so they just got
divorced and then they were resentful of each other and
that's a perfect and she blamed him and he blamed her,

(57:30):
and really it was they were both doing things.

Speaker 2 (57:33):
Have you watched all her fault on Peacock?

Speaker 4 (57:36):
No, okay, I haven't, because I'll Peacock.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
I've started it and this isn't going to be spoiling anything.
So I'm not going to tell you which couple I'm
talking about. But I just watched a scene where a
husband and there's multiple husbands in the show. She works
and he works when she is at home and with
the kids and you know, doing laundry and cooking, taking
care of the kids. She's always on the clock. Whenever
she's out doing something and he's home with the kids,

(57:59):
he's like, when are you back? Like when am I done?
And I just I was just thinking of relationships and
dynamic and how awful that would be with someone. And
I was like, you know, this is reality for some
people that the wife feels like she's always on, like
she never when she's home with the kids. She doesn't
call the husband and say when am I off so

(58:20):
I can go do something else. And it was interesting because.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Yeah, and is there is she playing that role of
the rescuer and she's well.

Speaker 2 (58:29):
Care definitely paused and was like took a deep breath
and I didn't really know where she was going to
go with it, and you could tell she just didn't
want the conversation or confrontation at the time, and she
was like, you know what, You're right. He's like, well,
you knew when you married me that I have to
have my me time and that I have to go
do my things, and that I'm better when I've got,
you know, time with my friends and this and that,

(58:50):
and so she took a deep breath and she was like,
you're right. I should have told you that I had
this going on. I'll be home as soon as I can,
and you know, marriages work and we will get through this.
And then she hung up, and I'm like, Dakota Fanning, Oh,
is that is that her? I just said whose role
it was? But that's not giving anything. You're not giving

(59:10):
anything away. I just said I was going to say
which couple it was, but I'm not giving anything away.
It has nothing to do with anything. They could delete
that scene and the show would be fine.

Speaker 4 (59:19):
We believe you, Thank you. I didn't know she was
in it. I knew it was the girl from Succession.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
Yeah, Shiv.

Speaker 4 (59:26):
I never watched that show. I couldn't get into it.

Speaker 2 (59:28):
What I love Succession, not.

Speaker 4 (59:30):
Get into it.

Speaker 1 (59:31):
I watched three episodes and I was like, this is
boring snooze. I know I'm an outlier, okay, but I
spoke my needs to Patrick and I said I can't
do another one, okay, and he watched it on his own. Okay,
So how to get off of this triangle? So I'm
going to give you options here. But my first option
is four parts. Notice set you're on it. This is

(59:54):
when you're on it with somebody else. Notice that you're
on it. Number one hardest part. You might need some
feedback or after you kind of if you are reevaluating
kind of your behaviors, you can you know, draw some
diagrams and figure that out. Two, you need to lower
your expectations for other people. When I say that what

(01:00:16):
comes up, you kind of made a face where you like,
dang it or that makes sense.

Speaker 2 (01:00:21):
I didn't make a face anything. Really, I didn't think, oh.

Speaker 1 (01:00:25):
Yeah, like I'm like, okay, check saying it well, because
most people when they hear that, they're like, I don't
want to do that. I don't want to lower my
expectations for people. I want people to rise to the occasion.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Oh no, No, I think that I have plenty of
practice of like sometimes just not having oh.

Speaker 4 (01:00:41):
Any like redunis quite a few times.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
Yeah, Like I think expectations or future resentment at times.
So not that I don't have standards for things in
life or expectations for certain things. But then maybe it's
my co parenting. Like no, I think that we have
to ben and I started having tons of expectations in
certain ways. Like that's where we had a little mantra

(01:01:05):
of like, okay, expectations or future resentments. So instead of
just expecting or assuming, like, we're gonna ask and we're
gonna talk about it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
And also we have to realize that we are not
everybody else, and so the things that make sense in
our head and the things that like seem best case
scenario in our head that work in our head aren't
the things that work in everybody else's heads because of
the stories that we have versus the stories other people have.
So lowering expectations isn't like, Okay, go marry somebody you hate,
Like that's not what we're talking about. We're The point

(01:01:34):
of this is when I can lower expectations and not
expect this for people to fall in line with how
I want them to act all the time, I then
can start to appreciate the things about them that I
couldn't see before because I was so resentful. So if
I know somebody is really bad, I'm gonna use me
as an example. I'm really bad at remembering your birthday

(01:01:55):
the date, I know the month, and I always end
up doing something, but I can't seem to get that
date right, seventeenth, nineteenth, It's March eighteenth.

Speaker 2 (01:02:12):
To be clear. To be clear, Cat's birthday is December fourth, Okay,
but that has come and gone. Okay, I'm not good.
It is not just sad.

Speaker 4 (01:02:24):
I'm not good at remembering.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
And that's okay. Like I don't hold I don't have
an expectation of you to I know where you stand
and that you care about me and that you celebrate
me like that's not also too, birthdays have been hard
for me. I have Shannon, I have a calendar, Like
there's things in the last five years that I have
implemented in my life that helped me. But before that,

(01:02:50):
before calendar, and then like have and even when it
comes to the calendar, like having like my heighty eat
to sit there and enter everybody's birthday reoccurring year after year.
That's something that I will give Shannon credit for in
that had I needed help organizing my life because of
my We both have ADHD. Maybe that's why I can

(01:03:12):
empathize with you and I give grace because I have
been that person and it feels horrible forgetting horrible, and
I have been on the receiving end of no grace
with it at all, like just anger, disappointment valid, valid,
But I know my heart and I'm like, gosh, you
I really do care about this person. I can't believe
that that slipped my mind. And that's probably why I

(01:03:35):
don't take it out on you, like I get it.
I'm not gonna get wrapped up.

Speaker 1 (01:03:39):
You're not going to make me that prosecutor or a villain. No,
you're not getting on the triangle with me. No. And
another example that people might relate a little bit more too,
is like love languages. So if you're in a relationship
where like somebody in your family they have a different
love language than you, Like if somebody is really bad
with words, but they are a good gift giver.

Speaker 4 (01:03:59):
If you don't lower your spectations, you're.

Speaker 1 (01:04:00):
Like, well, I'm an affirmation person and you have to
tell me, xyz, you will get on this triangle every
single time you talk to them, because you won't be
able to receive their love. But if I can lower
expectations in the sense in okay, I'm going to meet
you with where you are and this is how you
show affection and love is gift giving. I can receive
that and I can actually appreciate so many things about you.

(01:04:21):
Now that I'm not blinded by all this resentment, that
might fit a little bit more help.

Speaker 4 (01:04:27):
Okay, so you have noticed that you're on it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
You're lowering your expectations. Then you're creating boundaries. So at
the same time, where like I am learning expectations and
able to see all this stuff, I also might want
to protect myself. So I need to create bound and
these are internal boundaries. You don't have to tell the
people that you have these boundaries. So if I'm a
words of affirmation person and I really need to hear,

(01:04:51):
I go to this person when I'm struggling or I'm sad,
or I need reassurance, or I just need to be validated,
but they don't know how to do that. I need
to create an internal boundary for myself. This is not
who I go to for that. I might go to
them for celebration in other areas, or I might go
to them if I need help picking out a gift
for somebody or something like that. There are other things

(01:05:13):
that I can do and go to them. And I
can see that more clearly now that I'm not blinded
by this resentment over here.

Speaker 4 (01:05:20):
But I have to be smart if it's.

Speaker 1 (01:05:22):
That whole idea of don't go to the hardware store
looking for a loaf of bread. If this person does
not have bread, right, I can't keep asking them for it,
because then that's my fault.

Speaker 4 (01:05:33):
So I need to create a boundary.

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
And when I'm hungry and I want a loaf of bread,
I can't walk into the hardware store.

Speaker 2 (01:05:39):
You gotta go to the grocery.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
You got to go to the grocery store. And that grocery
store might be a different person. And because of all that,
because that's a lot of work, noticing you're on it,
and like acknowledging our shortcomings, lowering expectations, and creating boundaries
is a lot of work. I say it really simply.
It's a lot of work, because that's.

Speaker 4 (01:05:56):
A lot of work. The fourth thing is self care.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
Simple, just like, be kind to yourself, give yourself grace,
soothe yourself in some way. I can say this to
you really simply. But the act of learning expectations and
cutting myself off from going to somebody and asking for
something that I've really wanted my whole life, that's hard
work emotionally, and that's going to take a toll on us,

(01:06:22):
so I need to then care for myself. Yeah, that's
if you're on this trangle with somebody else.

Speaker 4 (01:06:28):
Else.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
If you're on the tragle with yourself, it's a little
bit more simple, and the solution is really to notice
you're on it and to reevaluate the stories we're making
out of the context and look for some solutions that
might be above the line, which is very similar to
that question that we come back to very often.

Speaker 4 (01:06:48):
What does this make possible? Or what big thing is
this preparing me for?

Speaker 2 (01:06:51):
Those?

Speaker 4 (01:06:51):
Are those two.

Speaker 1 (01:06:52):
Questions are above the line questions that can help us
reframe a fact.

Speaker 2 (01:06:58):
What in general is above the li? What? What versus why?

Speaker 4 (01:07:03):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Yeah, yes, yes, what versus why? It's like the you know,
I used example of Cat saying that when we missed
the exit, and she's like, this is keeping us from
an accident. There's the burnt toast. Is it called the
burnt toast theory or the burnt toast?

Speaker 4 (01:07:19):
I don't know. You're teaching me something.

Speaker 2 (01:07:21):
Well, I don't know. It just popped into my head. Well,
I feel like maybe we'll end on this note. I
feel like maybe it's something like you burnt your toast.

Speaker 6 (01:07:34):
And it's just workshopping this right now, and it delayed
your morning, you know, but like not why did I
burn my toast?

Speaker 2 (01:07:45):
Maybe like more of like what is this protecting me from?
Like my burn? The burnt toast.

Speaker 4 (01:07:50):
Is giving me late?

Speaker 2 (01:07:52):
So then maybe I missed. I don't get around thing
like that, like it's the burnt I thought it was
a whole thing. Sorry, I thought you might know what
it is, because like literally it's just like burnt toast
just pop into my head. Isn't that weird? Let me
look it up, burnt toast, bury toast theory. Let me
see if it's like actually a thing. It's probably not. Brain,
I'm gonna be so mad at you. The burnt toast

(01:08:13):
theory is a psychological coping mechanism that suggests minor inconveniences
like burning your toast may prevent larger misfortunes. My brain
did not do me dirty.

Speaker 4 (01:08:24):
Yeah you knew it.

Speaker 2 (01:08:25):
I got there. Okay, thank you, brain, You are awesome, wonderful.
But like the whole time you're talking, all of a sudden,
I was picturing my toaster and burnt toast, like I
don't And then I was like, I think there's a
burnt toast theory, and then I just said it without
really knowing You're.

Speaker 4 (01:08:40):
Hoping that I could pick that up.

Speaker 2 (01:08:41):
And you'd be like, oh, yes, Let'm talking about the
burnt toast theery. Maybe I'm also thinking about it because
you're like, can't get a loaf of bread at the
hardware store?

Speaker 4 (01:08:47):
Did I say it like that?

Speaker 2 (01:08:48):
No? But I kind of like it. I kind of
like that.

Speaker 4 (01:08:52):
Yeah. I think that's you know, yeah, Well that's a
drama triangle or the Cartman triangle as some people call it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:59):
And hopefully it's helpful, especially around this time of year,
and it can keep your relationship safe and help you
and get your needs met.

Speaker 2 (01:09:07):
All right, Kat, hope you had a great birthday. Hope
you had the birthday.

Speaker 4 (01:09:12):
He needed to have.

Speaker 2 (01:09:14):
Thanks right, okay, and we hope y'all have the day.

Speaker 4 (01:09:18):
You need to have.

Speaker 1 (01:09:18):
Bye.

Speaker 5 (01:09:19):
Bye,

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Understanding the Drama Triangle: Why We Play Victim, Rescuer & Persecutor