April 4, 2026 • 48 mins
Today's episode is going to be a wild ride, as we dive headfirst into a conversation that's bound to be one of the most raw and real shares we've ever had.
Yep, you guessed it - we're talking about sex. But hold on, we're not approaching it the way you've heard a million times before.
Our mission here at The God Pod? To flip the script and invite you into a judgment-free zone where we can explore your relationship with yourself (and with God) without any shame weighing us down.
Joining me on this journey are my dear friends and mentors, Kevin and Rea Queen, who I affectionately call my "fairy godparents". Together, we're diving deep into my own experiences, baring it all in the hopes of showing you that there's no room for shame or condemnation when faith is your compass.
When I first stumbled upon this whole idea of "saving myself" for marriage, I didn't fully grasp what I was getting into. But as my relationship with my now-husband evolved, so did my understanding of commitment.
Before I knew it, we were on a journey of self-discovery and revelation, strengthening our bond in ways I never thought possible. And as our wedding day approached, I felt this urge to share our story, to shed light on how my faith journey transformed my views on love, intimacy, and self-worth.
So here we are, laying it all out on the table, hoping to spark some honest conversations and remind you that your journey is valid, unique, and oh-so-worthy.
HOST: Leanne Ellington // StresslessEating.com // @leanneellington
GUEST: Kevin & Rea Queen from @Crosspoint.tv
To learn more about Leanne, head over to www.LeanneEllington.com, and to share your thoughts, questions, feedback, or guest suggestions instantly, head on over to www.WhatsGodGotToDoWithIt.com.
What's God Got to Do With It is an iHeartRadio podcast on the Amy Brown Podcast network. It's written and hosted by Leanne Ellington, Executive Produced by Elizabeth Fazio, Post Production and Editing by Houston Tilley, and Original music written by Cheryl Stark & produced by Adam Stark.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
If you want to go on a journey. If you're skeptical,
don't worry. Not here to preach. I want to keep
the clean and talk to me and recall where faith
needs stops nature, get in touch with your creator with
a baking love and jew She even speaks Hebrew.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
What's that? We'll set the pass talking transformation?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
What's stop down too? Well? Hello, and welcome back to
What's God got to do with It? Today is a
doozy people. We are going to be diving into a
really interesting conversation. I know it's bound to be, but
probably definitely actually the most vulnerable share today. We are
going to be talking about sex, and probably not in
(01:03):
the way that you have seen it, heard it, learned it,
lived it in society. We want to give you a
picture and really invite you into a conversation that allows
you to relinquish any shame, relinquish any stories that you
picked up about yourself along the way, and really invite
you into the possibility of what could be true for
you and your relationship with yourself, your relationship with God.
(01:26):
I am joined here by my friends mentors, fairy, god
Mother and Godfather. Yep, now it is written, spoke, Yeah, hello,
you know Kevin from a previous episode. You've heard me
talk about re on previous episodes, and you'll hear her
on a future episode as well. But I asked them
(01:47):
to be here because they have really been alongside this journey.
I'm going to share my experiences with this and really
hopes to, you know, show that really there's no shame here.
There's no condemnation when you don't know what you don't know.
So I am going to share that, but we also
want to just open the floor, open the door for
you to get whatever clarity you need, because I know,
(02:08):
for me, when I first, you know, started a relationship
with God, these conversations were not there. They were not
spoken of. I heard about things like purity culture but
didn't know what it was. I heard about things like
no sex before marriage, but didn't know what it meant.
And then of course there's a lot of guilt and
shame and judgment associated with these things. So I'll just
kind of kick us off and then then we'll dive in.
(02:29):
And for everybody listening, thank Ree and Kevin for me,
because I really don't believe this episode would be possible
without them supporting it. So I'm going to go ahead
and dive in and just and just share, and I'll
start with bits of the story and then we'll kind of,
you know, diverge probably, But basically, when I found God,
for whatever reason, something struck my heart and I was like, Okay,
I have this new relationship with myself, this new relationship
(02:51):
with my body. And when it came to my relationship
with men, and I've shared on this on this podcast before,
before I knew who I was, before my identity was rooted,
I was attracting emotionally unavailable men, and I was settling
for breadcrumbs of what I truly deserved because I didn't
know who I was in God's eyes. And that's what happens,
and not in a shameful way, but just in a
(03:12):
that's what happened kind of way. Well along the way,
I was never probiscuous. I was always pretty responsible, but
I did I had sex outside of marriage. And when
I first came into union with God, I made a
declaration that the next man that I am with intimately
is going to be my husband. I thought that that
was a big step from it, it actually was a
(03:34):
really big step for me. At the time, but I
didn't necessarily know what it meant. There was no specificity
attached to that. I was just like, the next person
i'm intimate with will be my husband. Well, as we're
filming today, I'm getting married in about ten days too.
That husband, Kevin is gonna be marrying us. Ree will
be a witness. So when Charles and I first got
together and I told him, I was like, the next
(03:55):
person I want I'm going to be intimate with is
my husband. And pretty quickly we knew that. I mean,
we were dating with the intention of marriage, not in
a pressurized kind of way, but just that's what we
were both looking for kind of way. And we fell
in love and we knew that we were going down
the road of marriage, even though there was an urgency.
And so within the first few months we took our
(04:16):
relationship to the next level and we were intimate and
it was never anything that defined our relationship. We had
built the foundations way beyond that, beneath that, within that.
But who I was at the time, I honestly didn't
feel bad about it. I didn't feel ashamed. I was
just like listen and kind of like the inner workings
were like, Hey, God, I'm giving you all of my life.
(04:36):
I've surrendered you know, this area in this area and
this area, and I'm and I've really renewed my mind
around this area right, and I think I'm doing it right.
Like the guy that I'm supposed to marry, or that
I'm that I'm planning to marry, this is the man
that I've chosen to be intimate with. Now, keep in mind,
at this point, I hadn't really read the Bible in entirety.
I still haven't read it in entirety, but I haven't
read nearly as much as of it as I've read
(04:58):
today and really understood it and really committed my life
to living it, to be honest, because that's been an ascension.
But that being said, to make a story a little
less long, About a year ish into our relationship, I
did start having a little tug in my heart. Whether
it was from hearing you know, actually the church I
go to in Murphysborough, one of the pastors there was
(05:20):
talking about when people come and say, hey, will you
pray for my marriage if they are having sex before marriage.
He's like, listen, I love you, but like, I can't
pray for your marriage and that said something to me.
I was like, huh, that's interesting, Like I wouldn't my
relationship wouldn't be prayed for. And of course, probably who
I was at the time was like, well, what's up
with that? Like that's not cool, Like I'm a good
(05:40):
Christian all the things right, but I still didn't get it.
And then just in groups that I was in, or
just in little thing like reading the Bible and reading scripture,
I started getting convicted. So I went from being like
not convicted that I wasn't convicted, to all of a
sudden being convicted that I wasn't convicted. And then little
by little I was like interest saying, okay, maybe there
(06:01):
is something to this about you know, saving yourself for marriage,
about giving your body to your husband, about keeping that
as something that is sacred within the confines of marriage.
And so I approached my fiance who will soon be
my husband, and I said to him, Hey, I'm feeling convicted,
and he answered exactly how I why I love him?
He said, okay, what, like what do you want to
(06:23):
do about it? Like, what what do you want to do?
I support you, and I said I think we should
probably like and it was not decisive at all. I
was like, ugh, and I was hoping he would say no.
Probably parts of me, you know, because I think also
who I was at the time was afraid that that
would make a man leave because I'd never had that
anything other than that, right, So he was like, I'll
(06:45):
do whatever you want to do, and I said, okay,
let's wait, and he said, okay, I'm on board. So
from you know, February of twenty twenty two, so like
over a year and a half ago, was the last
time we were intimate, and neither of us knew what
we were getting into, right, And this was both of
our first godly relationships. And I don't know if he
knew that he was going to propose to me because
we didn't get engaged for another year after that. So
(07:06):
definitely it wasn't one of those things of like, oh,
put a ring on it so that I'll have sex
with you. It wasn't like that, right. It was more
about honoring God because I felt like I was compartimentalizing
my relationship. Now. Just I want to say here, I'm
not trying to shame anybody, convince anybody, persuade anybody to
do what I did. This was just kind of what
happened for me. The other side of this is what
led up to this, is when I would I would
(07:28):
meet with you guys for lunch or coffee or whatever,
and I found myself kind of compartimentalizing who I was.
I was like, oh, yeah, I moved out to Murphis Burrow,
but I didn't tell you guys that I was like
living with Charles and that we were intimate and all
the things. And I was like, wow, I'm out of integrity.
I've committed to living like full disclosure, fully in alignment
with who I am, and then this one area of
(07:48):
my life I am compartimentalizing, not to mention. Little did
I know God would have a little podcast called What's
God Got to Do with It on the horizon for me.
And I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that
if I had not like got and write with my
own alignment with God, I would have never stepped into
this role because I would have felt out of alignment
and I would have known even if I didn't know
(08:08):
what it was. So there are so many different things
that I didn't see any of this at the time
when God nudged me and was like, hey, I think
you should like put a pin in it. So all
that's to say, there were so many fruits that have
come off the back of that, and we'll talk about that.
But there's an intimacy that was created between Charles and
I that has absolutely nothing to do with physical anything,
and it's an intimacy that would have never that I
(08:30):
believe would have never existed without this kind of departure
from the typical physical connection and intimacy that people explore.
And then there's this relationship with my body that I've
kind of rediscovered because my body image has been a
very interesting wack a do subject for me my whole life, right,
And just when you think that you've gotten to a
certain level with that, there's always more. And so this
idea of like, oh my gosh, I'm kind of saving
(08:54):
not kind of I'm saving myself and my body and
honoring and treasuring my body, and I get to give
it to to this man after we are wed before God,
and again the fruits that it has bared that we
didn't even know we were looking for. That good old
Charles just came for the ride with me, you know,
when I said, hey, let's do this, and he's like
I'm on board, you know. So that is the long
(09:15):
and the short of it, and we're gonna we're gonna
dive in. So, first of all, when I first shared
this with you, we were sitting over at lunch over
in Franklin at Urban Market, and I was like, okay,
you were like updating, what's what's the updates? And I'm like, oh, yeah,
by the way, I'm engaged by the way all this.
And it's not that I was a shame to share it,
but like what I'm sharing right now on this podcast,
I needed time to reconcile it and know that I
(09:37):
was good and know that he is good, and know
that all was well. And because again I didn't know
about this. I didn't know about sexual shame because I
never had it until I had it right, And there's
so many different types of sexual shame, and mine came
up in different ways that again I didn't even know
I was aware of or could be aware of. But
I came to you and I shared what happened, and
I was like, this is what happened, this is what
(09:59):
we decided, this is what happening now future future pacing,
And I mean, you guys couldn't have been more accepting.
You are this picture of grace and love and unconditional
acceptance and showing me exactly what I thought I knew,
which is that, like Liam, this is okay, Like you've
renewed your mind, there's nothing wrong, there's something to be
ashamed of. Also, I still had that little stigma attached
(10:20):
to it. So all of that right, I want to
turn it over to you, and just first i'd love
to hear y'all's experience of this, and maybe if you
recall some of some of what you shared or what
you know came up for you as I shared this story,
and for anybody who's listening. And again, this is not
like a We're not here to convert you or you know,
convince you or whatever you know, trying to twist your
arm into anything. We're just sharing a picture of what
(10:42):
this could look like, especially in a modern day society.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
If I was just to pick up with with our story.
You know, Rihe and I both we both grew up
in homes where it was taught that the best way
would be to wait until we were until we were
married to have sex. And I remember learning that through
I think I learned it through the youth group that
(11:06):
I went to, but that didn't give me a lot
of the tools that I needed. And it also I
don't know that there was necessarily a positive view that
was put on sex as much as it was a
don't do these things, and so I think there was
still shame attached. And it wasn't until later that I
began to learning understand that that sex is a gift.
(11:30):
There's a gift that God has given to us that's
best enjoyed in the context of marriage. And I think
I saw more of the taboo than like the gift
that was worth preserving, and that I've heard one person say,
you know, seeing that it's a gift, and just like
a fire in a fireplace, that like a fire and
(11:53):
a fireplace, it works best in the fireplace. You know,
you put a start a fire anywhere. But the way
God has made us physiologically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, that intimacy
is best experience God's design within the context of a
covenant relationship of a I'm here, You're like, I'm not
(12:13):
going anywhere, like I'm with you forever until the end.
And so I don't share that to put any shame
on anybody who's experienced outside of the covenant, outside of marriage,
just to go. I think that is God's design even
since the beginning. You know, created Adam and Eve in
the garden, and God, God invented sex like it's his idea,
(12:34):
like he came up with He was not surprised. Oh
you guys can do that.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Like he was.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
He made.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
To be enjoyed, you know, in the in the garden.
And what's interesting is after Adam and Eve, after they
sin against God, the first thing they do is like
is they they hide. That's one way we know that
something's not right is when we start hiding anything from
Like if if I was on the way home, if
I was to go to Crystal and pick up some
(13:04):
Crystal Burghers or lesson McDonald's, and like if I hide
the McDonald Like if I hide that from Brie, you know,
I hope she doesn't see the receipt. You know something's
not right when I'm when I'm hiding. And the same
is true you know, with with a history on Safari,
on the phone, or with pictures or image anywhere in life.
(13:27):
So Adam and Eve they hide from God, and God's
first question to them is where are you like where's
your heart? You know? And I think that when things
are within that context, it's like it's it's heart shared
together without like I don't need to hide, you know.
I'm not hiding anything. I'm intimacy like into me, see right,
Like I am giving you myself, you know. And and
(13:50):
so it's that expression of intimacy and love that God
designed within the within the covenant.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
I agree with everything that you just said, Kevin, and
I just want to point back Lee in to that
day that we were at Urban Market and you said
it when you were sharing your story at the beginning
of the podcast. But the phrase that I heard you
say that day and I heard you say again was
the renewing of your mind. And that's just from scripture.
That's Romans twelve, verse two. Do not conform to the
(14:18):
pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing
of your mind. Then you will be able to test
and approve what God's will is, his good, pleasing and
perfect will. And so it's beautiful because you had already
settled in a place where your identity was. You said
it even this, You even said this at the beginning
of the podcast. Your identity was firmly rooted in Christ.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
That was settled.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
And when you know who you are and who you are,
you were able to surrender to who whose you are.
And I think that was just a process that took
some time for you, and I love it because you
were willing, you were surrendered, and you were willing to say, Okay, God,
renew my mid, renew my mind in this thinking, and
(15:02):
he did, and he did, and he showed you what
his will is for your life around sex and intimacy
and sex before marriage and sex inside of marriage, and
his will for your life in what shame looks like
and what shame doesn't look like. And so I think,
if we're being honest, there is a point where it
(15:23):
almost has to start with knowing who you are and
whose you are, and everything else can kind of flow
out of that. Because if you don't know God as good,
and you don't know God as provision, and you don't
know God as saying, here, here's my will. It's good
and pleasing and perfect. It's hard to trust what he
(15:44):
can say, what he does say, what he will say
to you. But when you know Him as those things,
you can trust when he says, hey, why'n't you go
to Charles and say we're going to wag and you're like, Okay, God,
I trust you.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I trust you.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
I know what that means. I don't know how that's
going to look, but I trust you. And then if
I favor in that from the Lord, and then that
step of obedience, and that favor propels you to the
next step of obedience and the next bit of favor.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So so beautifully put in so many gold nuggets in that,
and you use you know, the concept or the distinction
between conform and transform, you know, conforming to the world
and transforming and renewing your mind. And I think that's
what a lot of people do. And to just get
on the other side of the fence of anybody who's listening,
where there might be that question of like, but wait
if I like, where they're typically conforming to what they
(16:26):
think they should be doing, or what the man or
woman wants, or what society is doing. And because they're
not rooted in who they are, they feel like that
that's their only option is to conform to what the
external variables are telling them to do, right yea? And
they and I know for me it was that fear
of like, well, if I'm not putting out for lack
of a way of saying it, like what's my worth?
(16:47):
What's my value? Will they want me? Will they stay?
Will they leave? All those things that we're in that
fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, and then we self
abandon and we give ourselves over to whatever it is,
whether it's you know, food, drugs, alcohol, sex, whatever it is,
even though it's not what we truly want, because fear
of again abandonment. So if anybody is listening and they're
like yesing to that of like, well, I would love
(17:10):
this idea of renewing my mind and having a new
relationship with with my body, with sex, with men, women,
with who whatever it is. But will they love me?
Will they stay? Will they leave me? What comes up
for you for that.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Well, I'm gonna go back to the garden where like
Adam and Eve, where they hid it from God and
they've created fig leaves, right, they're covering up their nakedness,
and God's like who told you that you were naked?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Who told you? Like where did you learn this thing
to be ashamed? You know? And that was their experience
of like I've got to cover up. And God didn't
leave them there and he went. It said that he
went and made clothes for them, and that really cool,
Like if we just nerd out for second, that created
the first sacrifice, because something had to die for him
(18:06):
to be able to take those animal skins and cover
over their shame. Let's fast forward to the Cross right
where our story is that Jesus laid down his life
as a sacrifice for our sin and our shame. And
when the Romans would crucify someone, they would strip them naked, wow,
(18:27):
to shame them, the condemnation on them. So all of
our guilt and all of our shame and all of
our crimes and all of our wrongs and the wrongs
that have been unto us, he took on himself to
provide a covering for us. So now we can be
one with God. So like this whole message is just
(18:47):
covered and saturated with grace, with forgiveness, freedom, freedom.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
So what happened at the Cross not only did it
cover our sin, but it broke the power of sin.
And now we're not We don't have to be mastered
by anything, right, we don't have to be mastered by
these things, or these relationships or these behavior there is power,
and we still sin Jesus. What's interesting is he took
(19:14):
it to He's like, you've heard it said, don't commit adultree.
But I tell you, if you look at a woman
love and lustfully, you commit adultrey in your heart. So
that we wouldn't just take it about this like standard
of like Okay, I'm just not gonna do I'm going
to go right up to deed just right, because that's
our tendency. The question we want to know how far
can I go? When we were dating throughout college and
we're like, okay, this is our line, Well how far
(19:35):
can we? That was that was a question, which is
not the question, Like the question is like how do
we walk in wholeness? How do we honor one another?
How do we care for one another? How do we
care for one another the future version of ourselves and
for the relationship that we want. How do we work
on talking? Because when I'm with you, I just want
to make out, and if we're making out, we're not
(19:57):
talking right. And so there's this idea that like when
we get married, it's just going to be all it's
gonna be like a sex marathon, and then you get
married and realize it's not you know, it's like, but
what God was wanting to do is to train us
how to communicate and how to talk before we were together.
Where now like, that's what marriage is built on. It's
(20:19):
not built on the physical. And I want you to
see the way that I mean, if somebody's like, well,
I don't know if God and Satan exists, just think
about the way this works. Before marriage, there is this
temptation to have sex, have sex, have sex, have sex,
have sex, have a lot of sex, have sex with
a lot of people, have sex, have sex, have sex.
This's the temptation, and it's in all like, the temptation
(20:41):
is in all of us.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
It's almost like a badge of honor two for a
lot of people.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Like you know, it's like like keeping score. Okay, So
if anybody like wonders about the reality of God and
Satan and temptation and sin, and I think about this
way when I face temptation, and it's just it's the
one two punch face temptation to do something or to
not to do so, to you know, to commit this sin,
(21:05):
whatever the sin is. And before it's like ah, nobody
will know, or it's not a big deal, or it's
just it's just one time, it's gonna be the last time,
or this, and then if I take the bait after
that moment, it's like, man, you are the worst person,
Like can you believe you did that? And then the
shame and the guilt that gets hitped on after that,
(21:25):
that just when you just take that and it's out
how we can go in our own minds one moment
and then we completely shift from it's not that big
of a deal to heaping on the shame. I think
that lets us know there is a bigger world at play,
a spiritual world at play, because there's a lot on
the on the line, and God gives his grace and
(21:46):
he wants to give us the grace to walk through
those moments and to make decisions and when we fail,
that we don't stay in a place of guilt and shame,
but that we walk in that in that freedom.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
And I think also it gets stacked on of like,
well I've already done it, I might as well just
keep going. And then it becomes your identity, like shame
becomes an emotional home for a lot of people, whether
it's with sex, whether it's with any other you know, mechanism,
you know. And then that's where it comes back to
what you were saying before, like, when you are not
rooted in an identity that comes from something higher than
these worldly places that we are identifying, we're lost, you know.
(22:20):
So I'd love to hear what you were just about
to say about that too. You look like you had
a glaze in your eye.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
I'm just caught up in the conversation, just listening. I
think there's an amazing conversation that can be had about
shame in particular as a feeling and guilt as a
feeling and our friend ship. DoD does an amazing job
with this, So I won't try to recreate his book
and his thoughts on this. But shame has a gift
(22:51):
in it, and the gift of shame is humility, and
guilt has a gift in it, and the gift of
guilt is forgiveness and freedom. And so, like Kevin said,
getting stuck in shame and guilt, you don't have to
because there is a healthy viewpoint of shame and guilt.
(23:13):
Now again a process. It's not overnight. It's not like,
oh I am experiencing shame. Okay, now I have humility,
and now it doesn't have to be like that. And
sometimes you go in the other direction where it becomes
like toxic shame where you feel worthless and never going
to overcome this choice that you made, and sometimes that happens.
(23:34):
But there is a gift in shame and there is
a gift in guilt, and if we can get there,
and I don't think we can get there alone, we
will find and experience that gift. And so that would
be an amazing conversation. And again Chip DoD has some
amazing resources on that. So if that's something that anybody
(23:54):
would want to look into, that would be Choice of
a Heart is what it's called.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah. I actually mentioned his voice of the Heart on
the neuro Faith episode. So we're coming full circle here. Yeah,
so yeah, I mean, and so for anyone, you know,
coming back to this identity conversation and knowing who you
are and being rooted in something bigger, you know, for
anyone out there who's like, I don't even know what
that feels like to not be just valued by my body,
or to not have value in a relationship without sex,
(24:22):
Like what do you do with that when you're in
that place, you know, and you might not have a
relationship with God or might not know that you do.
You know, where do you start that identity conversation? In
terms of finding value in a relationship, I would preface
and say it first, it starts with yourself. Obviously, you
can only you know, give away what you have to give.
So like, are people that might not be in that
(24:43):
place right now and they're looking to outsource their worth
to a relationship or sex or whatever. And again there's
no shame, there's no condemnation here, but like, where would
somebody begin?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
I think it's healthy to have some friendships. I can
remember being we were seventeen onw a basketball tournament down
in Fort Walton Beach and a friend of mine, his
name is David, and we were standing there on the
beach and he was like, man, I'm really struggling with this.
And he told me what he was struggling with and
I was like, man, I'm struggling with that too, And
(25:13):
it was like he was like, man, can we help
each other? And I was like the courage that took
for like said, he didn't know that I was that
I was struggling at the same time, but like that
we were able to share that with one another and
though we're not the only one, and so having a
friend like that, because really, I don't think it's fair
to read for me to ask her to be my accountability,
(25:36):
like yeah, accountability partner. Like I think what's better than
like accountability is I would say, like preemptive. And it's
almost where you share your struggles with somebody with somebody else.
And for me, that's a same sex as friend. We
got a friend, Dave now got another. We've got several
friends that I'll just have conversations about struggles with and
(25:58):
it is when we confess those things, we share those things.
If somebody's well, where do I find those things? I
think that's one of the best functions of a healthy,
you know, local church, is that you can find some people.
I say it this way, and I think it's true
in relationships as well. It's like when you're running and
you run and you look to the left and right,
and you look to you know, and you're looking to
(26:19):
see who's keeping pace, who's running with you, and you're like, oh,
there's somebody, Like run after God, run after who you're
created to be. Run after his plan for you, like
his dream for your life. Run after the version of
yourself that you want to like. Run after those things,
and his spirit is powered to take a sprint and
then look to your left and your right. You know,
there are some places where we can go find people
who will just validate the decisions that we've made and
(26:41):
agree with everything and not challenge us. And they're not
running with us.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That's not going to be helpful.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
But to find people mentors. Even when you sat down
and shared with us, I'm so glad, Like it was refreshing.
It was so refreshing that, Oh, there's a level of
honesty and confession. There was a quote from Bonhoeffer where
he said, why is it that it is often easier
for us to confess our sins to God than to
a brother or a sister. God is holy and sinless,
(27:07):
He is a just judge of evil and the enemy
of all disobedience. But a brother or sister as sinful
as we are, he knows from his own experience, the
dark knight of the secret of sin. Why should we
not find it easier to go to a brother than
to a holy God? But if we do, we must
ask ourselves whether we have not often been deceiving ourselves
with our own confession of sin to God, whether or
(27:28):
not we've rather been confessing our sins to ourselves and
also granting ourselves absolution. Who can give us certainty that
in the confession and the forgiveness of our sins, we
are not dealing with others, but with the living God.
God gives us this certainty through our brother. Our brother
breaks the cycle of self deception. A person who confesses
(27:49):
his sins in the presence of a brother knows that
he is no longer a luve with himself. He experiences
the presence of God in the reality of the other person.
And so if we want to be forgiven, we confess
things to God. If we want to feel forgiven, we
confess it to another person, a trusted friend who's running
in the same direction and running with us since yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And knowing that you're not going to be judged, because
there could be a totally the same conversation in a
different audience where it's like, well, you need to do this,
and you should do this, and you shouldn't be doing that,
and you know betterly in and all these things right,
And it comes back to what you said about in
the garden where when Adam and Eve took on the
shame and they put the shame on themselves and God
was like, where are you? Like, Basically, what I hear
is like that shame's not coming from me, right, So
(28:35):
when we talk about this idea of you know, again,
there's so much stigma and shame, and it's shame put
on ourselves but also being shamed by others. And you
hear especially around the topic of sex, and there's so
many people that might be listening that have are like,
probably this is a breath of fresh air to hear
this conversation because they've experienced this. So that distinction between
(28:56):
like this is not coming from God? Can you speak
into that a little bit of like what's not coming
from God? Can you speak into that a little bit
of like what's not coming from God?
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Shame is not coming from God. God is only good.
He is only good, and so if it's not good,
it's not him, it's not his character.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
He is kind and.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Loving and patient, and a beautiful practice that I have
learned over the last oh, I don't know, seven years,
eight years is to focus on who God is a
one word God.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
You are peace.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Thank you God, that you are peace, not even adding
anything else. God, you are peace. God, you are healer. God,
you are good. God, you are just. God, you are merciful. God,
you are delivered. I mean, on and on and on,
and when I can call those things to mine in
a hard conversation or when I'm sitting across the table
and I'm about to hear some maybe jarring news, that
(30:06):
is who God is, and that is who He's called
me to be, and so I can pull from and
extend that, God, you are good. I am going to
be good to this person with my words. God, you
are a peace. I am going to just shower peace
on them in this situation. So, yes, shame is not
from God. And I think that sometimes we do have
(30:27):
a tendency as human beings to default to that idea,
you're just shaming me, You're just shaming me, when really
it's their hearts that are saying, ah, i feel like
I've hurt myself, I feel like I've hurt someone else,
I feel like I've hurt God. And they don't exactly
know how to deal with that, to confess that, and
(30:51):
so the default sometimes is to say, you're shaming me,
you're shaming me. And I would just encourage anybody who
might find that that's a default sometimes to default to
that you're shaming me phrase, just to get honest and
just it's there's no shame in looking at your feelings
and looking at what you're really feeling and working that out.
(31:14):
There's no shame in that. In fact, there's, like we said,
there's freedom in that, and there's forgiveness in that, and
there's fullness of life. Really, Yeah, there's a fullness of
life in that.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, coming back to the freedom side of this, you know,
because part of it is relinquishing the shame, but then
stepping into what God has for us, you know, and
coming back to I shared little bite size of this
when I first, you know, we first started the podcast,
was this idea that like, I gave my life over
to God. You know. I gave him my my physical life.
I gave him my emotional spiritual life. I gave him weed.
(31:47):
Like I was like, take this, I'm not. I don't
want to. I don't want to drug my emotions anymore.
I gave him my finances, my business, all of the things, right,
But I in one of my realizations was like and
by the way he prospered me in all of those
areas like double portion, triple portion, you know, like everything,
I was like, oh my gosh, why I It was
one of those things where I was like why did
I do this soon? Or like I feel so free,
(32:09):
but I was holding on with like this tight grip
to my sex life so to speak, actually literally with
this air of my life and compartimentalizing my faith. And
that was kind of one of the awarenesses for me
as I was like, God, you are so good and
you've been so good to me, Like what is keeping
me from trusting you at this? And part of it
was again I always say, it takes faith to have faith,
(32:30):
because faith is not this thing that like you just
inherently have all the time, Like at least I for me,
I don't I have to like go out on a
leap of faith to experience the faith that I need
to have to have the belief and the certainty that
faith is good, right, because faith is scary, right. But
that being said, it was it was a leap of
faith to just be like to even like admit it
(32:50):
to myself, and for that inkling of for me feeling convicted.
Was I felt shame? It was exactly what you just said.
I assumed that other people were shaming me, but it
wasn't them, It was me, right. And that's when I
and this is a really important distinction for me that
I feel called to share, is this was really the
first time I've ever felt like convicted about anything, like
(33:12):
feeling it in my bones, feeling it in my spirit.
There was a physiological, spiritual, mental, emotional. It was all
three dimensional convicted, as in like something's not right. And
and again, I my emotional home was shame for so long,
so naturally it makes sense that that's where I went.
But it was this idea. It was me out of
alignment with the identity that I had. I had called
(33:33):
myself to step into because God had called me to
step into it, but I wasn't living in it, in
this one little piece of my life. And so when
I gave it over to Him, and that's where I
want to impart upon you. The reason I'm sharing this
right now is not out of coercion. It's out of
like the gifts that God is giving me. And I'm
not even married yet, I'm still a born again virgin
technically right now on you know the date that we're
(33:55):
that we're recording this. But the fruits that in the
and the beauty and the richness that he has given
our relationship and intimacy whole new definitions of intimacy and
connection and acceptance and worthiness. And talk about me proving
to myself that I feel worthy of having a man
that loves and cherishes me for who I am, not
for how many times I have sex with him. Right,
(34:17):
So there is something to be had. And again it
takes faith to have faith. But these are the gifts
and the freedom that lives on the other side. Not
to mention the shame that I didn't even know I
was having about my body. Now you all have been
listening to this podcast to know along I've had a
very complicated relationship with my body. The relationship, the next
level of body image and body connection that I now
(34:39):
have because of this that again I wasn't looking for.
It was just the gift on the other side of
this of now I'm like, I get to give my
body to my husband. I get to honor my body
first and foremost and then give it as a gift.
It's a gift for him, it's a gift for me.
It's a gift for us, and there's freedom on the
other side of the shame blanket. So I think it's
really important that we talk about both because again, a
(35:01):
lot of sex talk is stigma, shame, guilt, all the things.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Yeah, let me say one quick thing because I know
you have a lot more to say about it than
I do. But for your story in particularly, and it's
part of my story too, is you said conviction and
conviction is a word that just it's not condemnation, it's
not guilt. I mean, it's not like, oh I feel
so guilty for that. It's conviction, and conviction is from
(35:26):
the Holy Spirit. And to your story is that with
your relationship with the Holy Spirit, he did some work
in you, and the truth of His word did some
work in you. And so capital T truth was how
you got to the place of conviction. And so that's
my story too, that the truth of the Living Word,
(35:49):
the living Word, it can apply and speak to so
many different situations, so many different circumstances. But the truth
capital T truth of the Living Word is how we
know what God's Back to that original scripture that I read,
his good, pleasing and perfect will Is, and because you
were connected to his truth, his living word, he was
(36:11):
able to speak. Your eyes and your ears were blessed
because you were open to see and to hear what
he was telling you in this particular place. We all
have we all have places where we need to be convicted,
where we not need to be convict, that's not the
best way to say it. Where we where the Lord
wants to gently pull us into a fuller life, and
(36:33):
we all have them. We're married, So maybe sex, you know,
in this way is not ours. But I've got something
that the Lord wants to gently pull me in and
show me and convict my heart where there's a gap
in our relationship. So this is not just your struggle, Leanne,
It's it's my struggle, it's kevin struggle. It's anybody who
wants to move into the fullness of life that God
(36:56):
has for us and be holy as He is holy.
We all have to journey through and pass those convictions
that He gives us, and you know, take hold and
work through those things.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
I mean, and I think about when I think when
you were talking about conviction, I was thinking about when
we were we were engaged, and you know, we had
certain lines that we had drawn, but we were like
trying to get his clothes to those lines. And I
don't say, I don't even want to say.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Ree was.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
I was to be the leader in the relationship, you know,
like I needed to lead her and honor her differently,
and I wasn't. And I remember I was leading. I
was preaching to some high school students on sex and
I was talking about that. And afterwards I was leaving
and re I remember we were in like this little
alleyway behind this house and the church, and and Reeve
(37:44):
was like, she said, you're a hypocrite. She said, what
you said up there, you don't live. And they say
reality is what you bump up against, you know, And
I bumped up against the reality that I wasn't. A
hypocrite is an actor. So pretender hypocrite doesn't mean that
we mess up. It means that we're putting on a
mask and we're pretending to be something that we're not.
(38:04):
And I was. I was living in pretense. And so
it had to get real, honest with myself and honest
with ree and it took some time, but in our engage,
we said, you know, then we said a boundary I
knew that if I went in her house that I
would not have enough will power to make the best decisions.
And so from that point on it was I will
(38:26):
kiss you on your front doorstep, and I would leave
and go back to my car. And it changed things.
But we had a goal, you know, our dream was, hey,
let's honor one another for the sake of our marriage.
We were engaged, and so I so, you know, as
I was listening to your story, I'm like, I don't
think God's getting up there and oh, well, they crossed
this line or they didn't cross this line, okay, Like
he's he's not keeping score like that. His heart is
(38:49):
like for us all to flourish, you know, and and
and he doesn't deal with dealing shame. I can I
share a story? Please agree that what God is like
Jesus that if you've seen me, you've seen the Father.
In other words, this is what God is like. Just
look at me, disciples, like, show us the Father. If
you show us the Father, will believe that He's like
you've been with me the whole time, like, just look
(39:11):
at me. It was in John chapter eight, he's teaching
in the temple and all these people are gathering around
him and the Pharisees, which were those the religious lawyers,
and they brought him a woman who had been caught
in adultery. And it's interesting in that caught in the act.
So we don't know if she had clothes on or
if she was I mean, it was that they didn't
(39:31):
bring the man. This is just they threw her under
the bus. They brought her before Jesus, and they said,
this a trap, They said, teacher, this woman was caught
in the act of adultery. The law of Moses commands
to stone such women. What do you say? And so
they were they were wanting to trap him, to accuse him,
and it says, and Jesus bent down and started to
write on the ground with his finger. And when he
(39:54):
kept they kept questioning him. He straightened up, and he
said to them, let any one of you who's without
sin to be the first. Just wanted to throw a
stone at her. And then he stooped down and he
rode on the ground, says And at this those who've
heard began to go away, one at a time, the
others first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman
still standing there. And Jesus straightened up and asked her, woman,
(40:15):
where are they? Has no one condemned you? No one, sir?
She said, Then neither do I condemn you. Jesus declared,
go and leave your life of sin, the gentleness, the kindness,
the love. The only one who was without sin in
that whole group of people was Jesus. He was the
(40:35):
only one who was without sin. And he didn't throw
a stone. What did he do? He knelt down and
he drew in the saint. Now we don't know what
he drew. I don't think it matters what he drew.
I think other people wanted to know what he drew,
because when somebody starts drawing some in the sand, all
eyes gone? Was he drawing in the sand? But I
think he did that to preserve her dignity, because people
(40:56):
would stop looking at her and what she didn't have
on and stop looking at her and shame.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, absolutely, And.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
So he took the shame. He drew and the dirt.
And all we know is that they dropped all those
stones and they left. So Jesus is he is not
throwing stones, he's not throwing shame. He's offering love. And
he told her that not out of shame, but out
of like so she could flourish, live the best lie
(41:25):
and he said her free and that's what he's after.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
That's absolutely yeah, because I mean sex in one viewpoint
is this bad, ugly, shameful thing. Sex in another viewpoint,
same thing, right in the right context, right or in
the context that serves us and makes it and brings
us closer to God, is this beautiful thing? And really
it comes back to the line that connects all of
this is the renewing of the mind and seeing yourself differently.
(41:51):
And it's interesting because I always come back to beliefs,
like our beliefs create our behaviors. Our beliefs shape us.
Our beliefs, you know, what we believe along enough time
becomes our identity. And talking about like the worldly beliefs,
you know, full transparency. When I first told my mom
that Charles and I had decided to wait, you know,
her first question was, is everything okay? What's wrong? Did
(42:12):
something happen? Because I grew up learning that you live
with a man before you marry him, you travel with him,
and you you test out the goods before you marry him. Right,
and this is this is shows that this is a
cultural conversation too. Right. So when I said to my mom,
I was like, no, we everything's good. I was like,
we want to honor God, like, we want to just
(42:33):
really you know, have a godly relationship and keep it
sacred for marriage. And I told her, I was like,
the fruits that are already transpiring, you know, the intimacy,
the connection, all of that. And it took her a
few moments to just be okay with that and make
sure that she knew that everything was okay and not
just okay more than more than okay. Great. But she
also had beliefs that if there's no sex, there's a
(42:55):
problem or whatever. And I grew up so so bottom line,
we all anyone listening has their own set of beliefs, right,
and we are a belief away from renewing our mind
really or renewing our mind away from new beliefs. Right.
So I want to put a seal around this conversation
by what in terms of beliefs, what are the beliefs
that you think are keeping people from renewing their minds
and what are the beliefs that we can you know,
(43:16):
instill invite people into around around this subject.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Well, I think we've talked about, We've gone back to
the garden, back to the very beginning. And I think
when Satan attacked Adam and Eve, it wasn't with a
claw hammer, it was with an idea. And it was like,
did God really say? In other words that that is
like can you really trust him? Can you really trust
that God's good? Can you really trust that he has
(43:42):
your best interest in mind? Can you really trust that
he has a plan? Like can you really trust that
He's going to provide for you? Can you really trust
that his way is best? And we live in such
a sexualized culture everywhere and everything and every conversation, and
(44:04):
so there are all these other ideas. So I think
it's it must begin. We're not a cosmic accident. We're
not just a random collection of molecules, like we've been
made out of love. And last night we were talking
about how what we think and this is like the
looking glass self as a sociological principle, but when what
(44:25):
we think the most important person in our life thinks
about us is where we get our sense of worth.
And so this is why I would say it has
to start with making God the most important person in
your life, because that's where your worth comes from. It
doesn't come from that, dude, It doesn't come from that lady.
(44:45):
It comes from comes from him. And that's where worse,
you know, begins. So God's goodness, his love and our
worst being found in him.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
Yeah, and just practically, I would just say start small, like,
start with one belief that you want to change, or
start with one practice that you want to incorporate. It
doesn't have to be everything all at once. Now, I'm
gonna read my Bible every day. I'm gonna read it
cover to cover. I'm gonna go to church, I'm gonna
get in a small group. I'm gonna only date Christian meth.
(45:14):
I mean whatever. I mean, whatever it is that that
you've decided or that you've been convicted about, starts small.
Start small, one thing, and those one things will link
together to create a big thing. And like we've said, fullness, freedom.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yeah, fullness, I got it the three episodes, let's talk
about that. And I think that's a great place to stop. No,
thank you so much. I really, you know, for me personally,
it feels really important to uncover this topic and let
it be an open conversation where we because there's no
(45:50):
shame in today's conversation, we're obviously talking about the shame
that comes alongside it, but it just is and it's
something that can be really beautiful and talk about. I mean,
this whole idea coming back to knowing who you are
and whose you are, and the most important person reflecting
back your worth being God Like. Again, that's why it's like,
just try this on where we are not here to
(46:11):
try to twist your arm into anything. It's just and
again I will reiterate, I was not looking to, you know,
save myself for marriage. It wasn't even on my mind.
But God convicted me and the fruits that have been
available to me that from the seeds that got planted
when I didn't even know what I was planting, Like
I thought I was planting a cantalope and I ended
(46:31):
up with a watermelon like I don't even know, you know,
but it's so beautiful. And my marriage is I mean
I'm not married yet, you know, but it will. I know,
it's my pre marriage life has already flourished and benefited.
And so again it's just in every time we talk
about this, what's God got to do with that conversation
today happens to be sex and intimacy. It's like just
(46:52):
inviting you to try it on. Renew your mind, ask
yourself what you're not seeing, Ask God to show you
what you're not seeing, and revel is.
Speaker 4 (47:00):
Abound, good, awesome, yes, beautiful.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Well, thank you all for being here. Thank you. We
are signing off for now, but we will catch you
next time.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Okay, we'll be back with more What's God Got to
Do with It? But in the meantime, I would definitely
love to hear from you, so just tell me where
you are in your story or maybe what questions you have,
like where do you feel you need clarity or support
or wisdom in your own journey. I definitely want to
(47:30):
hear from you, So head on over to What's God
Got to Do with It? Dot com and scroll down
to the form to share your thoughts, your questions, your feedback,
and you can do that instantly. So What's God Got
to Do with It? Dot Com? You'll find all the
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(47:53):
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New episodes drop every single Tuesday, and while you're there,
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It really means so much. What's God Got to Do
With It is an iHeartRadio podcast on the Amy Brown
Podcast Network. It's written and hosted by me Leanne Ellington,
(48:14):
executive produced by Elizabeth Fozzio, post production and editing by
Houston Tilley, and original music written by Cheryl Stark and
produced by Adam Stark
If you want to go on a journey. If you're skeptical,
don't worry. Not here to preach. I want to keep
the clean and talk to me and recall where faith
needs stops nature, get in touch with your creator with
a baking love and jew She even speaks Hebrew.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
What's that?
Speaker 1 (00:31):
What's that? We'll set the pass talking transformation?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
What's stop down too? Well? Hello, and welcome back to
What's God got to do with It? Today is a
doozy people. We are going to be diving into a
really interesting conversation. I know it's bound to be, but
probably definitely actually the most vulnerable share today. We are
going to be talking about sex, and probably not in
(01:03):
the way that you have seen it, heard it, learned it,
lived it in society. We want to give you a
picture and really invite you into a conversation that allows
you to relinquish any shame, relinquish any stories that you
picked up about yourself along the way, and really invite
you into the possibility of what could be true for
you and your relationship with yourself, your relationship with God.
(01:26):
I am joined here by my friends mentors, fairy, god
Mother and Godfather. Yep, now it is written, spoke, Yeah, hello,
you know Kevin from a previous episode. You've heard me
talk about re on previous episodes, and you'll hear her
on a future episode as well. But I asked them
(01:47):
to be here because they have really been alongside this journey.
I'm going to share my experiences with this and really
hopes to, you know, show that really there's no shame here.
There's no condemnation when you don't know what you don't know.
So I am going to share that, but we also
want to just open the floor, open the door for
you to get whatever clarity you need, because I know,
(02:08):
for me, when I first, you know, started a relationship
with God, these conversations were not there. They were not
spoken of. I heard about things like purity culture but
didn't know what it was. I heard about things like
no sex before marriage, but didn't know what it meant.
And then of course there's a lot of guilt and
shame and judgment associated with these things. So I'll just
kind of kick us off and then then we'll dive in.
(02:29):
And for everybody listening, thank Ree and Kevin for me,
because I really don't believe this episode would be possible
without them supporting it. So I'm going to go ahead
and dive in and just and just share, and I'll
start with bits of the story and then we'll kind of,
you know, diverge probably, But basically, when I found God,
for whatever reason, something struck my heart and I was like, Okay,
I have this new relationship with myself, this new relationship
(02:51):
with my body. And when it came to my relationship
with men, and I've shared on this on this podcast before,
before I knew who I was, before my identity was rooted,
I was attracting emotionally unavailable men, and I was settling
for breadcrumbs of what I truly deserved because I didn't
know who I was in God's eyes. And that's what happens,
and not in a shameful way, but just in a
(03:12):
that's what happened kind of way. Well along the way,
I was never probiscuous. I was always pretty responsible, but
I did I had sex outside of marriage. And when
I first came into union with God, I made a
declaration that the next man that I am with intimately
is going to be my husband. I thought that that
was a big step from it, it actually was a
(03:34):
really big step for me. At the time, but I
didn't necessarily know what it meant. There was no specificity
attached to that. I was just like, the next person
i'm intimate with will be my husband. Well, as we're
filming today, I'm getting married in about ten days too.
That husband, Kevin is gonna be marrying us. Ree will
be a witness. So when Charles and I first got
together and I told him, I was like, the next
(03:55):
person I want I'm going to be intimate with is
my husband. And pretty quickly we knew that. I mean,
we were dating with the intention of marriage, not in
a pressurized kind of way, but just that's what we
were both looking for kind of way. And we fell
in love and we knew that we were going down
the road of marriage, even though there was an urgency.
And so within the first few months we took our
(04:16):
relationship to the next level and we were intimate and
it was never anything that defined our relationship. We had
built the foundations way beyond that, beneath that, within that.
But who I was at the time, I honestly didn't
feel bad about it. I didn't feel ashamed. I was
just like listen and kind of like the inner workings
were like, Hey, God, I'm giving you all of my life.
(04:36):
I've surrendered you know, this area in this area and
this area, and I'm and I've really renewed my mind
around this area right, and I think I'm doing it right.
Like the guy that I'm supposed to marry, or that
I'm that I'm planning to marry, this is the man
that I've chosen to be intimate with. Now, keep in mind,
at this point, I hadn't really read the Bible in entirety.
I still haven't read it in entirety, but I haven't
read nearly as much as of it as I've read
(04:58):
today and really understood it and really committed my life
to living it, to be honest, because that's been an ascension.
But that being said, to make a story a little
less long, About a year ish into our relationship, I
did start having a little tug in my heart. Whether
it was from hearing you know, actually the church I
go to in Murphysborough, one of the pastors there was
(05:20):
talking about when people come and say, hey, will you
pray for my marriage if they are having sex before marriage.
He's like, listen, I love you, but like, I can't
pray for your marriage and that said something to me.
I was like, huh, that's interesting, Like I wouldn't my
relationship wouldn't be prayed for. And of course, probably who
I was at the time was like, well, what's up
with that? Like that's not cool, Like I'm a good
(05:40):
Christian all the things right, but I still didn't get it.
And then just in groups that I was in, or
just in little thing like reading the Bible and reading scripture,
I started getting convicted. So I went from being like
not convicted that I wasn't convicted, to all of a
sudden being convicted that I wasn't convicted. And then little
by little I was like interest saying, okay, maybe there
(06:01):
is something to this about you know, saving yourself for marriage,
about giving your body to your husband, about keeping that
as something that is sacred within the confines of marriage.
And so I approached my fiance who will soon be
my husband, and I said to him, Hey, I'm feeling convicted,
and he answered exactly how I why I love him?
He said, okay, what, like what do you want to
(06:23):
do about it? Like, what what do you want to do?
I support you, and I said I think we should
probably like and it was not decisive at all. I
was like, ugh, and I was hoping he would say no.
Probably parts of me, you know, because I think also
who I was at the time was afraid that that
would make a man leave because I'd never had that
anything other than that, right, So he was like, I'll
(06:45):
do whatever you want to do, and I said, okay,
let's wait, and he said, okay, I'm on board. So
from you know, February of twenty twenty two, so like
over a year and a half ago, was the last
time we were intimate, and neither of us knew what
we were getting into, right, And this was both of
our first godly relationships. And I don't know if he
knew that he was going to propose to me because
we didn't get engaged for another year after that. So
(07:06):
definitely it wasn't one of those things of like, oh,
put a ring on it so that I'll have sex
with you. It wasn't like that, right. It was more
about honoring God because I felt like I was compartimentalizing
my relationship. Now. Just I want to say here, I'm
not trying to shame anybody, convince anybody, persuade anybody to
do what I did. This was just kind of what
happened for me. The other side of this is what
led up to this, is when I would I would
(07:28):
meet with you guys for lunch or coffee or whatever,
and I found myself kind of compartimentalizing who I was.
I was like, oh, yeah, I moved out to Murphis Burrow,
but I didn't tell you guys that I was like
living with Charles and that we were intimate and all
the things. And I was like, wow, I'm out of integrity.
I've committed to living like full disclosure, fully in alignment
with who I am, and then this one area of
(07:48):
my life I am compartimentalizing, not to mention. Little did
I know God would have a little podcast called What's
God Got to Do with It on the horizon for me.
And I know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that
if I had not like got and write with my
own alignment with God, I would have never stepped into
this role because I would have felt out of alignment
and I would have known even if I didn't know
(08:08):
what it was. So there are so many different things
that I didn't see any of this at the time
when God nudged me and was like, hey, I think
you should like put a pin in it. So all
that's to say, there were so many fruits that have
come off the back of that, and we'll talk about that.
But there's an intimacy that was created between Charles and
I that has absolutely nothing to do with physical anything,
and it's an intimacy that would have never that I
(08:30):
believe would have never existed without this kind of departure
from the typical physical connection and intimacy that people explore.
And then there's this relationship with my body that I've
kind of rediscovered because my body image has been a
very interesting wack a do subject for me my whole life, right,
And just when you think that you've gotten to a
certain level with that, there's always more. And so this
idea of like, oh my gosh, I'm kind of saving
(08:54):
not kind of I'm saving myself and my body and
honoring and treasuring my body, and I get to give
it to to this man after we are wed before God,
and again the fruits that it has bared that we
didn't even know we were looking for. That good old
Charles just came for the ride with me, you know,
when I said, hey, let's do this, and he's like
I'm on board, you know. So that is the long
(09:15):
and the short of it, and we're gonna we're gonna
dive in. So, first of all, when I first shared
this with you, we were sitting over at lunch over
in Franklin at Urban Market, and I was like, okay,
you were like updating, what's what's the updates? And I'm like, oh, yeah,
by the way, I'm engaged by the way all this.
And it's not that I was a shame to share it,
but like what I'm sharing right now on this podcast,
I needed time to reconcile it and know that I
(09:37):
was good and know that he is good, and know
that all was well. And because again I didn't know
about this. I didn't know about sexual shame because I
never had it until I had it right, And there's
so many different types of sexual shame, and mine came
up in different ways that again I didn't even know
I was aware of or could be aware of. But
I came to you and I shared what happened, and
I was like, this is what happened, this is what
(09:59):
we decided, this is what happening now future future pacing,
And I mean, you guys couldn't have been more accepting.
You are this picture of grace and love and unconditional
acceptance and showing me exactly what I thought I knew,
which is that, like Liam, this is okay, Like you've
renewed your mind, there's nothing wrong, there's something to be
ashamed of. Also, I still had that little stigma attached
(10:20):
to it. So all of that right, I want to
turn it over to you, and just first i'd love
to hear y'all's experience of this, and maybe if you
recall some of some of what you shared or what
you know came up for you as I shared this story,
and for anybody who's listening. And again, this is not
like a We're not here to convert you or you know,
convince you or whatever you know, trying to twist your
arm into anything. We're just sharing a picture of what
(10:42):
this could look like, especially in a modern day society.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
If I was just to pick up with with our story.
You know, Rihe and I both we both grew up
in homes where it was taught that the best way
would be to wait until we were until we were
married to have sex. And I remember learning that through
I think I learned it through the youth group that
(11:06):
I went to, but that didn't give me a lot
of the tools that I needed. And it also I
don't know that there was necessarily a positive view that
was put on sex as much as it was a
don't do these things, and so I think there was
still shame attached. And it wasn't until later that I
began to learning understand that that sex is a gift.
(11:30):
There's a gift that God has given to us that's
best enjoyed in the context of marriage. And I think
I saw more of the taboo than like the gift
that was worth preserving, and that I've heard one person say,
you know, seeing that it's a gift, and just like
a fire in a fireplace, that like a fire and
(11:53):
a fireplace, it works best in the fireplace. You know,
you put a start a fire anywhere. But the way
God has made us physiologically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually, that intimacy
is best experience God's design within the context of a
covenant relationship of a I'm here, You're like, I'm not
(12:13):
going anywhere, like I'm with you forever until the end.
And so I don't share that to put any shame
on anybody who's experienced outside of the covenant, outside of marriage,
just to go. I think that is God's design even
since the beginning. You know, created Adam and Eve in
the garden, and God, God invented sex like it's his idea,
(12:34):
like he came up with He was not surprised. Oh
you guys can do that.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Like he was.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
He made.
Speaker 3 (12:42):
To be enjoyed, you know, in the in the garden.
And what's interesting is after Adam and Eve, after they
sin against God, the first thing they do is like
is they they hide. That's one way we know that
something's not right is when we start hiding anything from
Like if if I was on the way home, if
I was to go to Crystal and pick up some
(13:04):
Crystal Burghers or lesson McDonald's, and like if I hide
the McDonald Like if I hide that from Brie, you know,
I hope she doesn't see the receipt. You know something's
not right when I'm when I'm hiding. And the same
is true you know, with with a history on Safari,
on the phone, or with pictures or image anywhere in life.
(13:27):
So Adam and Eve they hide from God, and God's
first question to them is where are you like where's
your heart? You know? And I think that when things
are within that context, it's like it's it's heart shared
together without like I don't need to hide, you know.
I'm not hiding anything. I'm intimacy like into me, see right,
Like I am giving you myself, you know. And and
(13:50):
so it's that expression of intimacy and love that God
designed within the within the covenant.
Speaker 4 (13:56):
I agree with everything that you just said, Kevin, and
I just want to point back Lee in to that
day that we were at Urban Market and you said
it when you were sharing your story at the beginning
of the podcast. But the phrase that I heard you
say that day and I heard you say again was
the renewing of your mind. And that's just from scripture.
That's Romans twelve, verse two. Do not conform to the
(14:18):
pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing
of your mind. Then you will be able to test
and approve what God's will is, his good, pleasing and
perfect will. And so it's beautiful because you had already
settled in a place where your identity was. You said
it even this, You even said this at the beginning
of the podcast. Your identity was firmly rooted in Christ.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
That was settled.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
And when you know who you are and who you are,
you were able to surrender to who whose you are.
And I think that was just a process that took
some time for you, and I love it because you
were willing, you were surrendered, and you were willing to say, Okay, God,
renew my mid, renew my mind in this thinking, and
(15:02):
he did, and he did, and he showed you what
his will is for your life around sex and intimacy
and sex before marriage and sex inside of marriage, and
his will for your life in what shame looks like
and what shame doesn't look like. And so I think,
if we're being honest, there is a point where it
(15:23):
almost has to start with knowing who you are and
whose you are, and everything else can kind of flow
out of that. Because if you don't know God as good,
and you don't know God as provision, and you don't
know God as saying, here, here's my will. It's good
and pleasing and perfect. It's hard to trust what he
(15:44):
can say, what he does say, what he will say
to you. But when you know Him as those things,
you can trust when he says, hey, why'n't you go
to Charles and say we're going to wag and you're like, Okay, God,
I trust you.
Speaker 3 (15:54):
I trust you.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
I know what that means. I don't know how that's
going to look, but I trust you. And then if
I favor in that from the Lord, and then that
step of obedience, and that favor propels you to the
next step of obedience and the next bit of favor.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So so beautifully put in so many gold nuggets in that,
and you use you know, the concept or the distinction
between conform and transform, you know, conforming to the world
and transforming and renewing your mind. And I think that's
what a lot of people do. And to just get
on the other side of the fence of anybody who's listening,
where there might be that question of like, but wait
if I like, where they're typically conforming to what they
(16:26):
think they should be doing, or what the man or
woman wants, or what society is doing. And because they're
not rooted in who they are, they feel like that
that's their only option is to conform to what the
external variables are telling them to do, right yea? And
they and I know for me it was that fear
of like, well, if I'm not putting out for lack
of a way of saying it, like what's my worth?
(16:47):
What's my value? Will they want me? Will they stay?
Will they leave? All those things that we're in that
fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, and then we self
abandon and we give ourselves over to whatever it is,
whether it's you know, food, drugs, alcohol, sex, whatever it is,
even though it's not what we truly want, because fear
of again abandonment. So if anybody is listening and they're
like yesing to that of like, well, I would love
(17:10):
this idea of renewing my mind and having a new
relationship with with my body, with sex, with men, women,
with who whatever it is. But will they love me?
Will they stay? Will they leave me? What comes up
for you for that.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Well, I'm gonna go back to the garden where like
Adam and Eve, where they hid it from God and
they've created fig leaves, right, they're covering up their nakedness,
and God's like who told you that you were naked?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You know?
Speaker 3 (17:43):
Who told you? Like where did you learn this thing
to be ashamed? You know? And that was their experience
of like I've got to cover up. And God didn't
leave them there and he went. It said that he
went and made clothes for them, and that really cool,
Like if we just nerd out for second, that created
the first sacrifice, because something had to die for him
(18:06):
to be able to take those animal skins and cover
over their shame. Let's fast forward to the Cross right
where our story is that Jesus laid down his life
as a sacrifice for our sin and our shame. And
when the Romans would crucify someone, they would strip them naked, wow,
(18:27):
to shame them, the condemnation on them. So all of
our guilt and all of our shame and all of
our crimes and all of our wrongs and the wrongs
that have been unto us, he took on himself to
provide a covering for us. So now we can be
one with God. So like this whole message is just
(18:47):
covered and saturated with grace, with forgiveness, freedom, freedom.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
So what happened at the Cross not only did it
cover our sin, but it broke the power of sin.
And now we're not We don't have to be mastered
by anything, right, we don't have to be mastered by
these things, or these relationships or these behavior there is power,
and we still sin Jesus. What's interesting is he took
(19:14):
it to He's like, you've heard it said, don't commit adultree.
But I tell you, if you look at a woman
love and lustfully, you commit adultrey in your heart. So
that we wouldn't just take it about this like standard
of like Okay, I'm just not gonna do I'm going
to go right up to deed just right, because that's
our tendency. The question we want to know how far
can I go? When we were dating throughout college and
we're like, okay, this is our line, Well how far
(19:35):
can we? That was that was a question, which is
not the question, Like the question is like how do
we walk in wholeness? How do we honor one another?
How do we care for one another? How do we
care for one another the future version of ourselves and
for the relationship that we want. How do we work
on talking? Because when I'm with you, I just want
to make out, and if we're making out, we're not
(19:57):
talking right. And so there's this idea that like when
we get married, it's just going to be all it's
gonna be like a sex marathon, and then you get
married and realize it's not you know, it's like, but
what God was wanting to do is to train us
how to communicate and how to talk before we were together.
Where now like, that's what marriage is built on. It's
(20:19):
not built on the physical. And I want you to
see the way that I mean, if somebody's like, well,
I don't know if God and Satan exists, just think
about the way this works. Before marriage, there is this
temptation to have sex, have sex, have sex, have sex,
have sex, have a lot of sex, have sex with
a lot of people, have sex, have sex, have sex.
This's the temptation, and it's in all like, the temptation
(20:41):
is in all of us.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
It's almost like a badge of honor two for a
lot of people.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Like you know, it's like like keeping score. Okay, So
if anybody like wonders about the reality of God and
Satan and temptation and sin, and I think about this
way when I face temptation, and it's just it's the
one two punch face temptation to do something or to
not to do so, to you know, to commit this sin,
(21:05):
whatever the sin is. And before it's like ah, nobody
will know, or it's not a big deal, or it's
just it's just one time, it's gonna be the last time,
or this, and then if I take the bait after
that moment, it's like, man, you are the worst person,
Like can you believe you did that? And then the
shame and the guilt that gets hitped on after that,
(21:25):
that just when you just take that and it's out
how we can go in our own minds one moment
and then we completely shift from it's not that big
of a deal to heaping on the shame. I think
that lets us know there is a bigger world at play,
a spiritual world at play, because there's a lot on
the on the line, and God gives his grace and
(21:46):
he wants to give us the grace to walk through
those moments and to make decisions and when we fail,
that we don't stay in a place of guilt and shame,
but that we walk in that in that freedom.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
And I think also it gets stacked on of like,
well I've already done it, I might as well just
keep going. And then it becomes your identity, like shame
becomes an emotional home for a lot of people, whether
it's with sex, whether it's with any other you know, mechanism,
you know. And then that's where it comes back to
what you were saying before, like, when you are not
rooted in an identity that comes from something higher than
these worldly places that we are identifying, we're lost, you know.
(22:20):
So I'd love to hear what you were just about
to say about that too. You look like you had
a glaze in your eye.
Speaker 4 (22:27):
I'm just caught up in the conversation, just listening. I
think there's an amazing conversation that can be had about
shame in particular as a feeling and guilt as a
feeling and our friend ship. DoD does an amazing job
with this, So I won't try to recreate his book
and his thoughts on this. But shame has a gift
(22:51):
in it, and the gift of shame is humility, and
guilt has a gift in it, and the gift of
guilt is forgiveness and freedom. And so, like Kevin said,
getting stuck in shame and guilt, you don't have to
because there is a healthy viewpoint of shame and guilt.
(23:13):
Now again a process. It's not overnight. It's not like,
oh I am experiencing shame. Okay, now I have humility,
and now it doesn't have to be like that. And
sometimes you go in the other direction where it becomes
like toxic shame where you feel worthless and never going
to overcome this choice that you made, and sometimes that happens.
(23:34):
But there is a gift in shame and there is
a gift in guilt, and if we can get there,
and I don't think we can get there alone, we
will find and experience that gift. And so that would
be an amazing conversation. And again Chip DoD has some
amazing resources on that. So if that's something that anybody
(23:54):
would want to look into, that would be Choice of
a Heart is what it's called.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah. I actually mentioned his voice of the Heart on
the neuro Faith episode. So we're coming full circle here. Yeah,
so yeah, I mean, and so for anyone, you know,
coming back to this identity conversation and knowing who you
are and being rooted in something bigger, you know, for
anyone out there who's like, I don't even know what
that feels like to not be just valued by my body,
or to not have value in a relationship without sex,
(24:22):
Like what do you do with that when you're in
that place, you know, and you might not have a
relationship with God or might not know that you do.
You know, where do you start that identity conversation? In
terms of finding value in a relationship, I would preface
and say it first, it starts with yourself. Obviously, you
can only you know, give away what you have to give.
So like, are people that might not be in that
(24:43):
place right now and they're looking to outsource their worth
to a relationship or sex or whatever. And again there's
no shame, there's no condemnation here, but like, where would
somebody begin?
Speaker 3 (24:52):
I think it's healthy to have some friendships. I can
remember being we were seventeen onw a basketball tournament down
in Fort Walton Beach and a friend of mine, his
name is David, and we were standing there on the
beach and he was like, man, I'm really struggling with this.
And he told me what he was struggling with and
I was like, man, I'm struggling with that too, And
(25:13):
it was like he was like, man, can we help
each other? And I was like the courage that took
for like said, he didn't know that I was that
I was struggling at the same time, but like that
we were able to share that with one another and
though we're not the only one, and so having a
friend like that, because really, I don't think it's fair
to read for me to ask her to be my accountability,
(25:36):
like yeah, accountability partner. Like I think what's better than
like accountability is I would say, like preemptive. And it's
almost where you share your struggles with somebody with somebody else.
And for me, that's a same sex as friend. We
got a friend, Dave now got another. We've got several
friends that I'll just have conversations about struggles with and
(25:58):
it is when we confess those things, we share those things.
If somebody's well, where do I find those things? I
think that's one of the best functions of a healthy,
you know, local church, is that you can find some people.
I say it this way, and I think it's true
in relationships as well. It's like when you're running and
you run and you look to the left and right,
and you look to you know, and you're looking to
(26:19):
see who's keeping pace, who's running with you, and you're like, oh,
there's somebody, Like run after God, run after who you're
created to be. Run after his plan for you, like
his dream for your life. Run after the version of
yourself that you want to like. Run after those things,
and his spirit is powered to take a sprint and
then look to your left and your right. You know,
there are some places where we can go find people
who will just validate the decisions that we've made and
(26:41):
agree with everything and not challenge us. And they're not
running with us.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
That's not going to be helpful.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
But to find people mentors. Even when you sat down
and shared with us, I'm so glad, Like it was refreshing.
It was so refreshing that, Oh, there's a level of
honesty and confession. There was a quote from Bonhoeffer where
he said, why is it that it is often easier
for us to confess our sins to God than to
a brother or a sister. God is holy and sinless,
(27:07):
He is a just judge of evil and the enemy
of all disobedience. But a brother or sister as sinful
as we are, he knows from his own experience, the
dark knight of the secret of sin. Why should we
not find it easier to go to a brother than
to a holy God? But if we do, we must
ask ourselves whether we have not often been deceiving ourselves
with our own confession of sin to God, whether or
(27:28):
not we've rather been confessing our sins to ourselves and
also granting ourselves absolution. Who can give us certainty that
in the confession and the forgiveness of our sins, we
are not dealing with others, but with the living God.
God gives us this certainty through our brother. Our brother
breaks the cycle of self deception. A person who confesses
(27:49):
his sins in the presence of a brother knows that
he is no longer a luve with himself. He experiences
the presence of God in the reality of the other person.
And so if we want to be forgiven, we confess
things to God. If we want to feel forgiven, we
confess it to another person, a trusted friend who's running
in the same direction and running with us since yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And knowing that you're not going to be judged, because
there could be a totally the same conversation in a
different audience where it's like, well, you need to do this,
and you should do this, and you shouldn't be doing that,
and you know betterly in and all these things right,
And it comes back to what you said about in
the garden where when Adam and Eve took on the
shame and they put the shame on themselves and God
was like, where are you? Like, Basically, what I hear
is like that shame's not coming from me, right, So
(28:35):
when we talk about this idea of you know, again,
there's so much stigma and shame, and it's shame put
on ourselves but also being shamed by others. And you
hear especially around the topic of sex, and there's so
many people that might be listening that have are like,
probably this is a breath of fresh air to hear
this conversation because they've experienced this. So that distinction between
(28:56):
like this is not coming from God? Can you speak
into that a little bit of like what's not coming
from God? Can you speak into that a little bit
of like what's not coming from God?
Speaker 4 (29:16):
Shame is not coming from God. God is only good.
He is only good, and so if it's not good,
it's not him, it's not his character.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
He is kind and.
Speaker 4 (29:28):
Loving and patient, and a beautiful practice that I have
learned over the last oh, I don't know, seven years,
eight years is to focus on who God is a
one word God.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
You are peace.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Thank you God, that you are peace, not even adding
anything else. God, you are peace. God, you are healer. God,
you are good. God, you are just. God, you are merciful. God,
you are delivered. I mean, on and on and on,
and when I can call those things to mine in
a hard conversation or when I'm sitting across the table
and I'm about to hear some maybe jarring news, that
(30:06):
is who God is, and that is who He's called
me to be, and so I can pull from and
extend that, God, you are good. I am going to
be good to this person with my words. God, you
are a peace. I am going to just shower peace
on them in this situation. So, yes, shame is not
from God. And I think that sometimes we do have
(30:27):
a tendency as human beings to default to that idea,
you're just shaming me, You're just shaming me, when really
it's their hearts that are saying, ah, i feel like
I've hurt myself, I feel like I've hurt someone else,
I feel like I've hurt God. And they don't exactly
know how to deal with that, to confess that, and
(30:51):
so the default sometimes is to say, you're shaming me,
you're shaming me. And I would just encourage anybody who
might find that that's a default sometimes to default to
that you're shaming me phrase, just to get honest and
just it's there's no shame in looking at your feelings
and looking at what you're really feeling and working that out.
(31:14):
There's no shame in that. In fact, there's, like we said,
there's freedom in that, and there's forgiveness in that, and
there's fullness of life. Really, Yeah, there's a fullness of
life in that.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
It's good.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, coming back to the freedom side of this, you know,
because part of it is relinquishing the shame, but then
stepping into what God has for us, you know, and
coming back to I shared little bite size of this
when I first, you know, we first started the podcast,
was this idea that like, I gave my life over
to God. You know. I gave him my my physical life.
I gave him my emotional spiritual life. I gave him weed.
(31:47):
Like I was like, take this, I'm not. I don't
want to. I don't want to drug my emotions anymore.
I gave him my finances, my business, all of the things, right,
But I in one of my realizations was like and
by the way he prospered me in all of those
areas like double portion, triple portion, you know, like everything,
I was like, oh my gosh, why I It was
one of those things where I was like why did
I do this soon? Or like I feel so free,
(32:09):
but I was holding on with like this tight grip
to my sex life so to speak, actually literally with
this air of my life and compartimentalizing my faith. And
that was kind of one of the awarenesses for me
as I was like, God, you are so good and
you've been so good to me, Like what is keeping
me from trusting you at this? And part of it
was again I always say, it takes faith to have faith,
(32:30):
because faith is not this thing that like you just
inherently have all the time, Like at least I for me,
I don't I have to like go out on a
leap of faith to experience the faith that I need
to have to have the belief and the certainty that
faith is good, right, because faith is scary, right. But
that being said, it was it was a leap of
faith to just be like to even like admit it
(32:50):
to myself, and for that inkling of for me feeling convicted.
Was I felt shame? It was exactly what you just said.
I assumed that other people were shaming me, but it
wasn't them, It was me, right. And that's when I
and this is a really important distinction for me that
I feel called to share, is this was really the
first time I've ever felt like convicted about anything, like
(33:12):
feeling it in my bones, feeling it in my spirit.
There was a physiological, spiritual, mental, emotional. It was all
three dimensional convicted, as in like something's not right. And
and again, I my emotional home was shame for so long,
so naturally it makes sense that that's where I went.
But it was this idea. It was me out of
alignment with the identity that I had. I had called
(33:33):
myself to step into because God had called me to
step into it, but I wasn't living in it, in
this one little piece of my life. And so when
I gave it over to Him, and that's where I
want to impart upon you. The reason I'm sharing this
right now is not out of coercion. It's out of
like the gifts that God is giving me. And I'm
not even married yet, I'm still a born again virgin
technically right now on you know the date that we're
(33:55):
that we're recording this. But the fruits that in the
and the beauty and the richness that he has given
our relationship and intimacy whole new definitions of intimacy and
connection and acceptance and worthiness. And talk about me proving
to myself that I feel worthy of having a man
that loves and cherishes me for who I am, not
for how many times I have sex with him. Right,
(34:17):
So there is something to be had. And again it
takes faith to have faith. But these are the gifts
and the freedom that lives on the other side. Not
to mention the shame that I didn't even know I
was having about my body. Now you all have been
listening to this podcast to know along I've had a
very complicated relationship with my body. The relationship, the next
level of body image and body connection that I now
(34:39):
have because of this that again I wasn't looking for.
It was just the gift on the other side of
this of now I'm like, I get to give my
body to my husband. I get to honor my body
first and foremost and then give it as a gift.
It's a gift for him, it's a gift for me.
It's a gift for us, and there's freedom on the
other side of the shame blanket. So I think it's
really important that we talk about both because again, a
(35:01):
lot of sex talk is stigma, shame, guilt, all the things.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Yeah, let me say one quick thing because I know
you have a lot more to say about it than
I do. But for your story in particularly, and it's
part of my story too, is you said conviction and
conviction is a word that just it's not condemnation, it's
not guilt. I mean, it's not like, oh I feel
so guilty for that. It's conviction, and conviction is from
(35:26):
the Holy Spirit. And to your story is that with
your relationship with the Holy Spirit, he did some work
in you, and the truth of His word did some
work in you. And so capital T truth was how
you got to the place of conviction. And so that's
my story too, that the truth of the Living Word,
(35:49):
the living Word, it can apply and speak to so
many different situations, so many different circumstances. But the truth
capital T truth of the Living Word is how we
know what God's Back to that original scripture that I read,
his good, pleasing and perfect will Is, and because you
were connected to his truth, his living word, he was
(36:11):
able to speak. Your eyes and your ears were blessed
because you were open to see and to hear what
he was telling you in this particular place. We all
have we all have places where we need to be convicted,
where we not need to be convict, that's not the
best way to say it. Where we where the Lord
wants to gently pull us into a fuller life, and
(36:33):
we all have them. We're married, So maybe sex, you know,
in this way is not ours. But I've got something
that the Lord wants to gently pull me in and
show me and convict my heart where there's a gap
in our relationship. So this is not just your struggle, Leanne,
It's it's my struggle, it's kevin struggle. It's anybody who
wants to move into the fullness of life that God
(36:56):
has for us and be holy as He is holy.
We all have to journey through and pass those convictions
that He gives us, and you know, take hold and
work through those things.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
I mean, and I think about when I think when
you were talking about conviction, I was thinking about when
we were we were engaged, and you know, we had
certain lines that we had drawn, but we were like
trying to get his clothes to those lines. And I
don't say, I don't even want to say.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
Ree was.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
I was to be the leader in the relationship, you know,
like I needed to lead her and honor her differently,
and I wasn't. And I remember I was leading. I
was preaching to some high school students on sex and
I was talking about that. And afterwards I was leaving
and re I remember we were in like this little
alleyway behind this house and the church, and and Reeve
(37:44):
was like, she said, you're a hypocrite. She said, what
you said up there, you don't live. And they say
reality is what you bump up against, you know, And
I bumped up against the reality that I wasn't. A
hypocrite is an actor. So pretender hypocrite doesn't mean that
we mess up. It means that we're putting on a
mask and we're pretending to be something that we're not.
(38:04):
And I was. I was living in pretense. And so
it had to get real, honest with myself and honest
with ree and it took some time, but in our engage,
we said, you know, then we said a boundary I
knew that if I went in her house that I
would not have enough will power to make the best decisions.
And so from that point on it was I will
(38:26):
kiss you on your front doorstep, and I would leave
and go back to my car. And it changed things.
But we had a goal, you know, our dream was, hey,
let's honor one another for the sake of our marriage.
We were engaged, and so I so, you know, as
I was listening to your story, I'm like, I don't
think God's getting up there and oh, well, they crossed
this line or they didn't cross this line, okay, Like
he's he's not keeping score like that. His heart is
(38:49):
like for us all to flourish, you know, and and
and he doesn't deal with dealing shame. I can I
share a story? Please agree that what God is like
Jesus that if you've seen me, you've seen the Father.
In other words, this is what God is like. Just
look at me, disciples, like, show us the Father. If
you show us the Father, will believe that He's like
you've been with me the whole time, like, just look
(39:11):
at me. It was in John chapter eight, he's teaching
in the temple and all these people are gathering around
him and the Pharisees, which were those the religious lawyers,
and they brought him a woman who had been caught
in adultery. And it's interesting in that caught in the act.
So we don't know if she had clothes on or
if she was I mean, it was that they didn't
(39:31):
bring the man. This is just they threw her under
the bus. They brought her before Jesus, and they said,
this a trap, They said, teacher, this woman was caught
in the act of adultery. The law of Moses commands
to stone such women. What do you say? And so
they were they were wanting to trap him, to accuse him,
and it says, and Jesus bent down and started to
write on the ground with his finger. And when he
(39:54):
kept they kept questioning him. He straightened up, and he
said to them, let any one of you who's without
sin to be the first. Just wanted to throw a
stone at her. And then he stooped down and he
rode on the ground, says And at this those who've
heard began to go away, one at a time, the
others first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman
still standing there. And Jesus straightened up and asked her, woman,
(40:15):
where are they? Has no one condemned you? No one, sir?
She said, Then neither do I condemn you. Jesus declared,
go and leave your life of sin, the gentleness, the kindness,
the love. The only one who was without sin in
that whole group of people was Jesus. He was the
(40:35):
only one who was without sin. And he didn't throw
a stone. What did he do? He knelt down and
he drew in the saint. Now we don't know what
he drew. I don't think it matters what he drew.
I think other people wanted to know what he drew,
because when somebody starts drawing some in the sand, all
eyes gone? Was he drawing in the sand? But I
think he did that to preserve her dignity, because people
(40:56):
would stop looking at her and what she didn't have
on and stop looking at her and shame.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
Yeah, absolutely, And.
Speaker 3 (41:03):
So he took the shame. He drew and the dirt.
And all we know is that they dropped all those
stones and they left. So Jesus is he is not
throwing stones, he's not throwing shame. He's offering love. And
he told her that not out of shame, but out
of like so she could flourish, live the best lie
(41:25):
and he said her free and that's what he's after.
Speaker 2 (41:28):
That's absolutely yeah, because I mean sex in one viewpoint
is this bad, ugly, shameful thing. Sex in another viewpoint,
same thing, right in the right context, right or in
the context that serves us and makes it and brings
us closer to God, is this beautiful thing? And really
it comes back to the line that connects all of
this is the renewing of the mind and seeing yourself differently.
(41:51):
And it's interesting because I always come back to beliefs,
like our beliefs create our behaviors. Our beliefs shape us.
Our beliefs, you know, what we believe along enough time
becomes our identity. And talking about like the worldly beliefs,
you know, full transparency. When I first told my mom
that Charles and I had decided to wait, you know,
her first question was, is everything okay? What's wrong? Did
(42:12):
something happen? Because I grew up learning that you live
with a man before you marry him, you travel with him,
and you you test out the goods before you marry him. Right,
and this is this is shows that this is a
cultural conversation too. Right. So when I said to my mom,
I was like, no, we everything's good. I was like,
we want to honor God, like, we want to just
(42:33):
really you know, have a godly relationship and keep it
sacred for marriage. And I told her, I was like,
the fruits that are already transpiring, you know, the intimacy,
the connection, all of that. And it took her a
few moments to just be okay with that and make
sure that she knew that everything was okay and not
just okay more than more than okay. Great. But she
also had beliefs that if there's no sex, there's a
(42:55):
problem or whatever. And I grew up so so bottom line,
we all anyone listening has their own set of beliefs, right,
and we are a belief away from renewing our mind
really or renewing our mind away from new beliefs. Right.
So I want to put a seal around this conversation
by what in terms of beliefs, what are the beliefs
that you think are keeping people from renewing their minds
and what are the beliefs that we can you know,
(43:16):
instill invite people into around around this subject.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
Well, I think we've talked about, We've gone back to
the garden, back to the very beginning. And I think
when Satan attacked Adam and Eve, it wasn't with a
claw hammer, it was with an idea. And it was like,
did God really say? In other words that that is
like can you really trust him? Can you really trust
that God's good? Can you really trust that he has
(43:42):
your best interest in mind? Can you really trust that
he has a plan? Like can you really trust that
He's going to provide for you? Can you really trust
that his way is best? And we live in such
a sexualized culture everywhere and everything and every conversation, and
(44:04):
so there are all these other ideas. So I think
it's it must begin. We're not a cosmic accident. We're
not just a random collection of molecules, like we've been
made out of love. And last night we were talking
about how what we think and this is like the
looking glass self as a sociological principle, but when what
(44:25):
we think the most important person in our life thinks
about us is where we get our sense of worth.
And so this is why I would say it has
to start with making God the most important person in
your life, because that's where your worth comes from. It
doesn't come from that, dude, It doesn't come from that lady.
(44:45):
It comes from comes from him. And that's where worse,
you know, begins. So God's goodness, his love and our
worst being found in him.
Speaker 4 (44:54):
Yeah, and just practically, I would just say start small, like,
start with one belief that you want to change, or
start with one practice that you want to incorporate. It
doesn't have to be everything all at once. Now, I'm
gonna read my Bible every day. I'm gonna read it
cover to cover. I'm gonna go to church, I'm gonna
get in a small group. I'm gonna only date Christian meth.
(45:14):
I mean whatever. I mean, whatever it is that that
you've decided or that you've been convicted about, starts small.
Start small, one thing, and those one things will link
together to create a big thing. And like we've said, fullness, freedom.
Speaker 2 (45:30):
Yeah, fullness, I got it the three episodes, let's talk
about that. And I think that's a great place to stop. No,
thank you so much. I really, you know, for me personally,
it feels really important to uncover this topic and let
it be an open conversation where we because there's no
(45:50):
shame in today's conversation, we're obviously talking about the shame
that comes alongside it, but it just is and it's
something that can be really beautiful and talk about. I mean,
this whole idea coming back to knowing who you are
and whose you are, and the most important person reflecting
back your worth being God Like. Again, that's why it's like,
just try this on where we are not here to
(46:11):
try to twist your arm into anything. It's just and
again I will reiterate, I was not looking to, you know,
save myself for marriage. It wasn't even on my mind.
But God convicted me and the fruits that have been
available to me that from the seeds that got planted
when I didn't even know what I was planting, Like
I thought I was planting a cantalope and I ended
(46:31):
up with a watermelon like I don't even know, you know,
but it's so beautiful. And my marriage is I mean
I'm not married yet, you know, but it will. I know,
it's my pre marriage life has already flourished and benefited.
And so again it's just in every time we talk
about this, what's God got to do with that conversation
today happens to be sex and intimacy. It's like just
(46:52):
inviting you to try it on. Renew your mind, ask
yourself what you're not seeing, Ask God to show you
what you're not seeing, and revel is.
Speaker 4 (47:00):
Abound, good, awesome, yes, beautiful.
Speaker 2 (47:03):
Well, thank you all for being here. Thank you. We
are signing off for now, but we will catch you
next time.
Speaker 1 (47:08):
Bye.
Speaker 2 (47:10):
Okay, we'll be back with more What's God Got to
Do with It? But in the meantime, I would definitely
love to hear from you, so just tell me where
you are in your story or maybe what questions you have,
like where do you feel you need clarity or support
or wisdom in your own journey. I definitely want to
(47:30):
hear from you, So head on over to What's God
Got to Do with It? Dot com and scroll down
to the form to share your thoughts, your questions, your feedback,
and you can do that instantly. So What's God Got
to Do with It? Dot Com? You'll find all the
ways to do that. And if you like this podcast
and want to hear more, go ahead and follow, like
and subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts to get your
(47:53):
weekly dose of What's God Got to do with It.
New episodes drop every single Tuesday, and while you're there,
be sure to rate and review to show your support.
It really means so much. What's God Got to Do
With It is an iHeartRadio podcast on the Amy Brown
Podcast Network. It's written and hosted by me Leanne Ellington,
(48:14):
executive produced by Elizabeth Fozzio, post production and editing by
Houston Tilley, and original music written by Cheryl Stark and
produced by Adam Stark
Feeling Things with Amy & Kat News
Host
Amy Brown
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