November 13, 2025 • 21 mins
On the latest Rugby Direct from London, Elliott Smith and Liam Napier review the two sides named for Sunday morning's test between the All Blacks and England.
We discuss the key selections including moving Wallace Sititi to the bench and whether it will be enough to counter the 'Pom Squad' named by Steve Borthwick.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio.
Straight down the Middle of.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Drum, Dickney scud By, Try these.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Pe get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby
Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News
Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct power by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty
five years in business. Ellie get Smith with me Liam
Napier in London again. As we come down to the
weekends test match All Blacks and England. The teams are outs.
England name theirs on Tuesday local time. The All Blacks
early get today Thursday morning local time. So Liam, the
(01:00):
teams are out and let's get into the All Blacks
first and foremost couple of surprises there. I know we
talked the other day about which way they might go
with the back line. They've gone the way we probably suspected, haven't.
They were Les defying Anuku on to the left wing.
Billy Procter in at center with Caler Clarke obviously out injured.
Simon Parker comes back into the team at blindside. Scott
(01:23):
Barrett's back as captain obviously and in the second row
as well. So three changes to the run on side
per should we start with that back line change? It
felt like probably the way they're going to go. Not
really too many other options that seemed that likely. So
what do you make of it?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
I think we predicted they would go that way. Ricohani
was another option. Yeah, they did have options of shifting
the back three around a wee bit, but they clearly
want to keep McKenzie in that impact role that he's
performed so well in recent weeks, and they finished the
Test last week against Scotland largely with that back line,
(02:05):
with Billy Procter at center alongside Quinti and Lester find
a knokle on the wing and look, I think you
can get Lester involved from the wing. And I wasn't
overly impressive him at center, but he saw an incredibly
damaging ball carrier. I do have concerns on the whole
for the back three and the way they're going to
be peppered with the high ball, but I don't think
it really mattered who the All Blacks picked there. That
(02:26):
was always going to be an area of potential vulnerability
and Anton Lenna Brown coming onto the bench a wee
bit of a surprise for me. I probably would have
picked Rico. I think he's a bigger body. But Scot
Robinson's justification was that Leona Brown covers second and center.
But it really does speak to Rico's standing in this
team and how far back he's gone in such a
(02:48):
short space at time.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It does well. Anton Lenna Brown, he said, could cover
wing as well, so can Rico, Youani, Rico has played
twelve at super level a little bit, going back a
couple of years at least now, But it does speak
to volumes as how he's fallen in this team, and
it feels like he maybe just needs to get to
Leinster and we can look and just try and re
(03:12):
not revive as Korega, but just a bit of a
sea change might be the best thing for him. He's
was center for a couple of seasons in this All
Blacks team, then moved to the left wing. Didn't really
work for him this year. Either he goes to Leinster
and it's the remaking of him, or he goes to
Linston goes okay, yeah, maybe I am no longer likely
(03:33):
to be a Test player and maybe he just goes
to Japan and maybe we don't see him. I no, no, no.
He's contracted with New zealandery for a wee while, but
it feels like he'll probably play next week against Wales.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yeah, I think he will.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
But there's also the question of how much you actually
lose a lot from that test given where Wales are
at they cop fifty from Argentina last week. I think
they've lost eighteen their last nineteen something like that, very
much in rebuild modes. So yeah, Rico's had a very
interesting juncture in his career and like you say, going
Leinster could help him. I think it will evolve his game,
(04:08):
will open his eyes to a different style of footy.
Interesting to see where he plays first and foremost and
how he handles being out of his comfort zone. That
could bring out the best in him. I think getting
out of the Blues and an environment he knows very well,
it will be a good challenge. And yeah, hopefully that
(04:28):
sparks something within him, because he does need to be
revived because he has gone back quickly, isn't.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
He he has I'll be honest, I don't quite get
the anti len It Brown selection on the bench. I
get the justification. I can accept that.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
But last year, in November this test, Lennard Brown came
off the bench and got a yellow cart.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
He got a yellow cut in his memory service as well.
It just feels, yeah, whether he can't get into the
pace of a game or whatever it is when you
come off the bench that late, I'm not sure. Trying
to Yeah, perhaps, but to me he doesn't suggest impact.
He's a very solid play, great link play, great distributor.
I just don't see the impact. And I'm not saying,
(05:12):
you remember from sixteen to twenty three has to be
gung ho, balls to the wall impact sort of player.
But I think you do need some of that, and
I'm not sure that Leonard Brown is going to be
a game changer.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Off the bench. No, I agree.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
And there's also a massive test for Billy Proctor though,
isn't it. He's had I think seven this year he was.
Robertson fully backed him on the basis that he had
been the forum center in Super Rugby for at least
two years. Hasn't made that transition, hasn't stepped up as hope,
particularly from an attacking perspective. How do you think he's
(05:48):
going to go this weekend.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I think this again is a big testa Billy Procter
because we haven't seen the best of him at Test
level compared to what we know he's capable of at
Super rugby level, where he can find time in space,
he's a great stepper with the ball, he can get
around plays, he can run through. You just team seems
hit the right option at super rugby level. I think
(06:10):
at Test level, time and space is so restricted and
your opportunities come few and far between, and both silky
skills and that space you might be afforded at Super
rugby level, you just don't get at Test rugby level.
And so I think that's real where the question is.
And it kind of felt like I was giving a
bit of credit the Shaft for sticking with them, but
(06:31):
it just wasn't coming from the All Blacks that they
kept sticking with them, going at some point it's going
to click. At some point it's going to click, and
then they had to make a call and it wasn't clicking.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I wonder whether it's a size thing with Billy because
Test rugby I think, I don't know, this is just
my assumption, but players a bigger, right yep, Bigger, faster, stronger,
and you mentioned the time in space, but also just
the physical contact. So I wonder whether that's why he
struggled from an attacking perspective, because you look at the
other options that have played well for the All Blacks
(07:00):
in the midfield. Quintuplier is a bigger physical presence, didn't
have that background as a center, but came out and
smashed it in his first start there.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Against the Wallabies.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Lester when he carries the ball is just hugely destructive.
Rico hasn't shown the best of himself, probably not even
viewed as a center for the All Blacks now, but
another bigger body. So yeah, I do wonder whether Billy
has struggled just with the difference of Super Raby to
test Ray from a size perspective.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, I think you could probably make that argument with Duple.
He's not in the match Day twenty three this week,
but you know he was getting turnovers for fun at
Super Ragby level and if Romerson no doubt that he
should be in this All Black squad, but he probably
lacks the size and test match breakdowns operate a little
bit different. The body's being cleared a little bit bigger.
(07:54):
Those opportunities to get turnovers a few and far between.
You got to be on the ball that fraction quicker
than you have to be at super rugby level. So
hasn't felt like he's maybe made that adjustment. And again
it might be a size thing.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yeah, what about the other change in the forward pack?
Sumon Parker he was arrested last week. Yeah, I personally
felt that maybe he'd come back on the bench this week.
I probably would have started Stiti. Think about what he
did last November and that breakout performance at Twickenham cut
(08:28):
England to shreds offloaded quick feet at the line. I
can understand why they pick Parker. Bigger body, he'll add
something to the set piece, more grunt to the scrum,
particularly of Scott Barrett coming back. He's more of a
line out presence as well, and he's strong, work great
on the defensive side of the ball. For me, he
(08:49):
doesn't offer a lot with ball in hand. And then
you've got Setti coming off the bench. But I just
feel a little bit like it's a team that's picked
not to play like England, but to counter their strengths
rather than to play to the All Black strengths, which
is how I would view Citti starting.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, I can see that point of view. I thought
there was a good chance that Parker came back in
this week. I think I said on the earlier podcast
in the week that you could put him in there
and then have Stdi going in for the last thirty
and a big advocate of finding that right mix for
the bench, because I think the last thirty minutes is
just as valuable, if not more now in test rugby
(09:27):
than the first save fifty. And it feels like the
All Blacks are still searching for that right option at
blind Side. It may be satiti over time, but it
also feels that they don't have the bench option that
they want at the moment. And whether that's because top
of I is out injured or whatever it might be,
but it feels like, Okay, they've made a decision to go,
we don't have the bench option that we would like
(09:49):
to back up Wallace. So therefore Wallace is going to
go to the bench and we'll go with Simon Parker,
who personally I don't think is a bench option. I
don't think he adds similar to Antonine at Brownie either,
starts and the run on team or he's not playing
in the twenty three, so they've gone with that. Wouldn't
surprise me to see them make a little bit of
a tweak quite early in the second spell, potentially around
(10:10):
that because we haven't talked about it, but that the
stats for the All Blacks quite bad and we had
great evidence of that last week at Murrayfield from minutes
forty to sixty, where the game got away from them
almost and it's been a continuing factor this year. So
they need to shore up that space at some point.
So I wonder whether Cititi will get his bought and
pass very very early in the second spell and basically
(10:32):
have for almost a full half of license to do
what you said and do what he did. It took
them last year.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
The Oblecks to be well aware, weren't they of their
third quarter struggles Last year? It was their final quarters
and that's where they've been really good in the last
two weeks in particular, and also against the Wallabies in
Perth they finished strongly. So you could argue they have
amended or potentially fixed solved their final quarter struggles, but
(10:59):
that's transferred to that period after halftime which potentially shines
a spotlight on what's happening at halftime, what's been said,
the mentality coming out of the sheds, there's a number
of questions around that. And yeah, the benches in modern
rugby are incredibly important, aren't they. And we've seen that
not only with the All Blacks tactics, but with England's
(11:20):
They've got six British and Irish Lions on their bench
in the six to two split there, and that clearly
speaks to the way they have lost the last three
games to the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, exactly right. You look back to twenty twenty two,
twenty five six, Yeah, they managed actually come back off that.
It wasn't you know it was. It was a blow,
but it was largely on their bench. They got that
twenty minutes right. Never since then twenty twenty three Dunedin
and then Auckland last year, then London last year, it
(11:53):
has been that twenty minutes period where the game has
got away from the All Blacks have been able to
win women last year they were All Blacks at twicken
them We're down twenty two fourteen, came back to roll
over the top of England in the end and just
looking at that bench six two split average of forty
caps per player on the bench and got the Pom score,
the Pom squad as it's been dubbed, which is great.
(12:17):
Luke Carwin, Dicky fifty one caps, Alice Kinge seventy three,
Will Stewart fifty one. That's just the front row and
then cunning him South has played nearly twenty. Tom Curry's
played sixty three. Pollocks the all one out with three,
Ben Spencer with twelve. Marcus Smith has somehow I got
forty five caps already in his Test career. But it's
a very experienced bench and they believe that if they're
(12:38):
in the game with twenty five to go, that these
are the men that are going to close it out
for them.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Yeah, you could argue big time that Alice Skinge, Tom Curry,
they've been starters largely throughout their Test careers. Henry Pollock's
been you know what is he twenty years old, the
absolute revelation for English rugby, big character, impressed during the
lines tour, came off the bench last week and scored
(13:05):
a try. So he's the epitome of a of an
impact player and Marcus Smith real live where if he
gets the license. Because the starting English team there's certainly
no ambiguity a bit about how they're going to play.
They've reinstated George Ford at ten and Freddie Stewart at
fullback and with Alex Mitchel a half back, they will
(13:26):
hoist to the heavens. I think they kept in four
tests this year, they've kept for over one thousand meters,
so you don't have to be Einstein to work out
how they're going to approach this.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Actually going to have a fair bit of catching to
do on Saturday and that's gonna be a real acid
test of what they can do that back three because
Will Jordan hasn't been the safest under the high ball,
Leroy Carter, the little man on the wing, lestifying Anoku
hasn't played a lot of wing in recent times as well.
Feels like an area of vulnerability for the All Blacks
(14:00):
because we're seeing against Scotland they haven't been able to
get it right for whatever reason. You know, it's been
a huge gaping problem in this All Blacks team and
again they haven't been able to fix it.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Let's talk about the few records because they didn't touch
it on the earlier pod this week. England haven't beaten
the All Blacks anywhere for five years. Since the twenty
nineteen World Cup semi final. The All Blacks haven't lost
at Twickenham. They're unbeaten them five matches. They're going back
to twenty twelve. Steve Borthwick in his three year tenure
(14:36):
hasn't been the All Blacks, hasn't been the spring box.
What do you put the All Blacks recent dominance of
England down to, Because it hasn't been a golden period
for All Black reps.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
No, it hasn't. I think for an English team. They
are inconsistent with their selections and perhaps similar to the
All Blacks is that they have struggled to build an
identity about themselves in a way they want to play,
and the All Blacks have just been able to find
a moment or two to be the better of them.
And you compare the two benches this year to what
(15:08):
England rolled out last year, and they've obviously stacked the
bench this time around, but it's strong a bench and
they rolled out last year when things did fall away
for them in the last week. While you know that
they have found some key players and positions Fay were Boso,
Henry Pollock coming through as well. So the All Blacks
haven't certainly dominated England by any stretch of the imagination,
(15:29):
but they've just been able to find a key moment
here there, hang really tough in games and come out
on the right side of the LEGI you think that's
twenty twenty two when the All Blacks lead twenty five
to six against England with nine ten minutes to play
and then likes of Fretty Steward managed to score a
couple of tries, got to twenty five All probably would
(15:49):
have won it if the game had gone on for
two or three more minutes. That was as good as
they've looked against the All Blacks. But then things have
changed again. So it's a really intriguing there's no right
art wrong answer, But the best that they've looked at
is probably when Eddie Jones was coaching them back into
twenty twenty two Seal Blacks.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, I think it's you're right.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
The identity thing is big for England's You look at
teams like Northampton who play quite attacking brand of rugby,
brilliant to watch, but that's not really England's DNA or
their identity, and they do have some attacking weapons. But
Borthwick is a lot more conservative generally as a coach,
and I think it's taken him time to develop the
(16:33):
style of rugby he wants to play. You see that
coming through with the bench there about. That's a clear
tactic about where he's going with this team. George Ford
is his ten for now. Last year it was Marcus Smith,
so I think he's settled on a few things, a
lot more sure in his mind how he wants to play,
who his men are. So this is the best England
(16:55):
have been under Bothwick. I don't think there's any doubt
about that. The one nine in a row, that record
is not amazing when you dive into it. But there
is a real confidence building within this English team and
it's an interesting sphere that in fronts this game because
this match will define both these team seasons. They're both
delicately poised. They're both looking for a significant scalp to
(17:17):
justify their improvements, their progress and if the All Black
swin pretty much bank the Grand Slam for the first
time in fifteen years, and people will say, yep, okay, Raiser,
we believe you you're on.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
The right track.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
If they don't, it raises a number of questions. And
it's the same for England. If their nine match winning
run comes to an end at home, people are like, oh, well,
we thought you were improving, but you're not quite there yet.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That's exactly right, and that's why it feels so pervotal,
you know, for both sides this weekend. And I don't
think it's going to be I think it's going to
be you know, it's probably gonna be one score game
either way. It doesn't feel like either team's going to
be able to really flex on the opposition. I'd be surprised.
Maybe we'll come back and recall on Sundal on Monday
(18:06):
and we'll be eating our work, dudes, and there will
be a huge blowout. But it feels like with the
nerves and the storylines and everything going into this game,
it's poised for a grandstand finish and it could be
just you know, a moment or two and that's where
you do look to the bench and you do go, yep,
they're probably you know, stacking it with a lot of
(18:27):
Lions plays is a smart move from England. So to
the All Blacks, Yeah, again, whether their bench can stand
up where they get what they need out of McKenzie
Leonard Brown. You know Ratzima has played two minutes on
this tour so far. You wouldn't want to lose Roy
again that one hundred percent. I mean you look at
the All Blacks record with Roy guard over the last
(18:47):
couple of years is ridiculous. Didn't play against South Africa
this year. I think the only test, and may be
wrong about this is the French Test last year in
Paris that he's lost since Scott Robinson took over. He
is pivotal to this team. So does he stay on
for another you know minutes and then you basically give
(19:08):
him the last test of the year off next week
against Wales.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yep, definite.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I mean going to look at It's just it's fascinating.
I think there's so many different storylines to the Hollis
might unfold this week, right, final thought from New Lam prediction.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
Please, Yes, this it pains me, Elias, but I've tipped
England all week and I'm not gonna waiver. Actually, I
just think there was an interesting stat today that there's
only five All Black starters returning from this time last
year at Twickenham, and I think that speaks to some
of the big outs in this team. No Jordi Barrett,
(19:45):
no Caleb Clark, Vi Patrick two polo to Tyro Lomax.
And this is at a time where the All Blacks
don't have strength and depth, and so I don't think
this is the best team.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
I'm not fully convinced by what we've seen the past
two weeks.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
I worry about the fatigue from last week having played
half an hour one man short.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Look, they could pull it the bag, the All Blacks.
But I just feel like.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
This is potentially going to be England's day, which is
going to be a tough pill to swallow. In front
of eighty two thousand at Twickenham.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, I'm going to say the All Blacks win by six.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
So there we go, There we go. Well, I hope
you're right.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
We will see right. That'll do us for Rugby Direct.
We will be back early part of next week with
a podcast. Will the All Blacks still be searching for
a Grand Slam or will we be talking about the
ramifications of a loss at Twickenham.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
But we'll put a pint on this one saying we've
got differing predictions.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, we will, all right done. We'll put a pint
of brains. Brains. That's exciting, you had brains. Hopefully it's
you shouting, not me right, that'll do us for Rugby
Direct powered by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty five years in business.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks EDB. Follow
this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio.
Straight down the Middle of.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Drum, Dickney scud By, Try these.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
Pe get inside the game from every angle. It's Rugby
Direct with Elliot Smith and Liam Napier, powered by News
Talks EDB.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome into Rugby Direct power by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty
five years in business. Ellie get Smith with me Liam
Napier in London again. As we come down to the
weekends test match All Blacks and England. The teams are outs.
England name theirs on Tuesday local time. The All Blacks
early get today Thursday morning local time. So Liam, the
(01:00):
teams are out and let's get into the All Blacks
first and foremost couple of surprises there. I know we
talked the other day about which way they might go
with the back line. They've gone the way we probably suspected, haven't.
They were Les defying Anuku on to the left wing.
Billy Procter in at center with Caler Clarke obviously out injured.
Simon Parker comes back into the team at blindside. Scott
(01:23):
Barrett's back as captain obviously and in the second row
as well. So three changes to the run on side
per should we start with that back line change? It
felt like probably the way they're going to go. Not
really too many other options that seemed that likely. So
what do you make of it?
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 4 (01:42):
I think we predicted they would go that way. Ricohani
was another option. Yeah, they did have options of shifting
the back three around a wee bit, but they clearly
want to keep McKenzie in that impact role that he's
performed so well in recent weeks, and they finished the
Test last week against Scotland largely with that back line,
(02:05):
with Billy Procter at center alongside Quinti and Lester find
a knokle on the wing and look, I think you
can get Lester involved from the wing. And I wasn't
overly impressive him at center, but he saw an incredibly
damaging ball carrier. I do have concerns on the whole
for the back three and the way they're going to
be peppered with the high ball, but I don't think
it really mattered who the All Blacks picked there. That
(02:26):
was always going to be an area of potential vulnerability
and Anton Lenna Brown coming onto the bench a wee
bit of a surprise for me. I probably would have
picked Rico. I think he's a bigger body. But Scot
Robinson's justification was that Leona Brown covers second and center.
But it really does speak to Rico's standing in this
team and how far back he's gone in such a
(02:48):
short space at time.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
It does well. Anton Lenna Brown, he said, could cover
wing as well, so can Rico, Youani, Rico has played
twelve at super level a little bit, going back a
couple of years at least now, But it does speak
to volumes as how he's fallen in this team, and
it feels like he maybe just needs to get to
Leinster and we can look and just try and re
(03:12):
not revive as Korega, but just a bit of a
sea change might be the best thing for him. He's
was center for a couple of seasons in this All
Blacks team, then moved to the left wing. Didn't really
work for him this year. Either he goes to Leinster
and it's the remaking of him, or he goes to
Linston goes okay, yeah, maybe I am no longer likely
(03:33):
to be a Test player and maybe he just goes
to Japan and maybe we don't see him. I no, no, no.
He's contracted with New zealandery for a wee while, but
it feels like he'll probably play next week against Wales.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
Yeah, I think he will.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
But there's also the question of how much you actually
lose a lot from that test given where Wales are
at they cop fifty from Argentina last week. I think
they've lost eighteen their last nineteen something like that, very
much in rebuild modes. So yeah, Rico's had a very
interesting juncture in his career and like you say, going
Leinster could help him. I think it will evolve his game,
(04:08):
will open his eyes to a different style of footy.
Interesting to see where he plays first and foremost and
how he handles being out of his comfort zone. That
could bring out the best in him. I think getting
out of the Blues and an environment he knows very well,
it will be a good challenge. And yeah, hopefully that
(04:28):
sparks something within him, because he does need to be
revived because he has gone back quickly, isn't.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
He he has I'll be honest, I don't quite get
the anti len It Brown selection on the bench. I
get the justification. I can accept that.
Speaker 4 (04:44):
But last year, in November this test, Lennard Brown came
off the bench and got a yellow cart.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
He got a yellow cut in his memory service as well.
It just feels, yeah, whether he can't get into the
pace of a game or whatever it is when you
come off the bench that late, I'm not sure. Trying
to Yeah, perhaps, but to me he doesn't suggest impact.
He's a very solid play, great link play, great distributor.
I just don't see the impact. And I'm not saying,
(05:12):
you remember from sixteen to twenty three has to be
gung ho, balls to the wall impact sort of player.
But I think you do need some of that, and
I'm not sure that Leonard Brown is going to be
a game changer.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
Off the bench. No, I agree.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
And there's also a massive test for Billy Proctor though,
isn't it. He's had I think seven this year he was.
Robertson fully backed him on the basis that he had
been the forum center in Super Rugby for at least
two years. Hasn't made that transition, hasn't stepped up as hope,
particularly from an attacking perspective. How do you think he's
(05:48):
going to go this weekend.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I think this again is a big testa Billy Procter
because we haven't seen the best of him at Test
level compared to what we know he's capable of at
Super rugby level, where he can find time in space,
he's a great stepper with the ball, he can get
around plays, he can run through. You just team seems
hit the right option at super rugby level. I think
(06:10):
at Test level, time and space is so restricted and
your opportunities come few and far between, and both silky
skills and that space you might be afforded at Super
rugby level, you just don't get at Test rugby level.
And so I think that's real where the question is.
And it kind of felt like I was giving a
bit of credit the Shaft for sticking with them, but
(06:31):
it just wasn't coming from the All Blacks that they
kept sticking with them, going at some point it's going
to click. At some point it's going to click, and
then they had to make a call and it wasn't clicking.
Speaker 4 (06:39):
I wonder whether it's a size thing with Billy because
Test rugby I think, I don't know, this is just
my assumption, but players a bigger, right yep, Bigger, faster, stronger,
and you mentioned the time in space, but also just
the physical contact. So I wonder whether that's why he
struggled from an attacking perspective, because you look at the
other options that have played well for the All Blacks
(07:00):
in the midfield. Quintuplier is a bigger physical presence, didn't
have that background as a center, but came out and
smashed it in his first start there.
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Against the Wallabies.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Lester when he carries the ball is just hugely destructive.
Rico hasn't shown the best of himself, probably not even
viewed as a center for the All Blacks now, but
another bigger body. So yeah, I do wonder whether Billy
has struggled just with the difference of Super Raby to
test Ray from a size perspective.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah, I think you could probably make that argument with Duple.
He's not in the match Day twenty three this week,
but you know he was getting turnovers for fun at
Super Ragby level and if Romerson no doubt that he
should be in this All Black squad, but he probably
lacks the size and test match breakdowns operate a little
bit different. The body's being cleared a little bit bigger.
(07:54):
Those opportunities to get turnovers a few and far between.
You got to be on the ball that fraction quicker
than you have to be at super rugby level. So
hasn't felt like he's maybe made that adjustment. And again
it might be a size thing.
Speaker 4 (08:07):
Yeah, what about the other change in the forward pack?
Sumon Parker he was arrested last week. Yeah, I personally
felt that maybe he'd come back on the bench this week.
I probably would have started Stiti. Think about what he
did last November and that breakout performance at Twickenham cut
(08:28):
England to shreds offloaded quick feet at the line. I
can understand why they pick Parker. Bigger body, he'll add
something to the set piece, more grunt to the scrum,
particularly of Scott Barrett coming back. He's more of a
line out presence as well, and he's strong, work great
on the defensive side of the ball. For me, he
(08:49):
doesn't offer a lot with ball in hand. And then
you've got Setti coming off the bench. But I just
feel a little bit like it's a team that's picked
not to play like England, but to counter their strengths
rather than to play to the All Black strengths, which
is how I would view Citti starting.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
Yeah, I can see that point of view. I thought
there was a good chance that Parker came back in
this week. I think I said on the earlier podcast
in the week that you could put him in there
and then have Stdi going in for the last thirty
and a big advocate of finding that right mix for
the bench, because I think the last thirty minutes is
just as valuable, if not more now in test rugby
(09:27):
than the first save fifty. And it feels like the
All Blacks are still searching for that right option at
blind Side. It may be satiti over time, but it
also feels that they don't have the bench option that
they want at the moment. And whether that's because top
of I is out injured or whatever it might be,
but it feels like, Okay, they've made a decision to go,
we don't have the bench option that we would like
(09:49):
to back up Wallace. So therefore Wallace is going to
go to the bench and we'll go with Simon Parker,
who personally I don't think is a bench option. I
don't think he adds similar to Antonine at Brownie either,
starts and the run on team or he's not playing
in the twenty three, so they've gone with that. Wouldn't
surprise me to see them make a little bit of
a tweak quite early in the second spell, potentially around
(10:10):
that because we haven't talked about it, but that the
stats for the All Blacks quite bad and we had
great evidence of that last week at Murrayfield from minutes
forty to sixty, where the game got away from them
almost and it's been a continuing factor this year. So
they need to shore up that space at some point.
So I wonder whether Cititi will get his bought and
pass very very early in the second spell and basically
(10:32):
have for almost a full half of license to do
what you said and do what he did. It took
them last year.
Speaker 4 (10:38):
The Oblecks to be well aware, weren't they of their
third quarter struggles Last year? It was their final quarters
and that's where they've been really good in the last
two weeks in particular, and also against the Wallabies in
Perth they finished strongly. So you could argue they have
amended or potentially fixed solved their final quarter struggles, but
(10:59):
that's transferred to that period after halftime which potentially shines
a spotlight on what's happening at halftime, what's been said,
the mentality coming out of the sheds, there's a number
of questions around that. And yeah, the benches in modern
rugby are incredibly important, aren't they. And we've seen that
not only with the All Blacks tactics, but with England's
(11:20):
They've got six British and Irish Lions on their bench
in the six to two split there, and that clearly
speaks to the way they have lost the last three
games to the All Blacks.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, exactly right. You look back to twenty twenty two,
twenty five six, Yeah, they managed actually come back off that.
It wasn't you know it was. It was a blow,
but it was largely on their bench. They got that
twenty minutes right. Never since then twenty twenty three Dunedin
and then Auckland last year, then London last year, it
(11:53):
has been that twenty minutes period where the game has
got away from the All Blacks have been able to
win women last year they were All Blacks at twicken
them We're down twenty two fourteen, came back to roll
over the top of England in the end and just
looking at that bench six two split average of forty
caps per player on the bench and got the Pom score,
the Pom squad as it's been dubbed, which is great.
(12:17):
Luke Carwin, Dicky fifty one caps, Alice Kinge seventy three,
Will Stewart fifty one. That's just the front row and
then cunning him South has played nearly twenty. Tom Curry's
played sixty three. Pollocks the all one out with three,
Ben Spencer with twelve. Marcus Smith has somehow I got
forty five caps already in his Test career. But it's
a very experienced bench and they believe that if they're
(12:38):
in the game with twenty five to go, that these
are the men that are going to close it out
for them.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
Yeah, you could argue big time that Alice Skinge, Tom Curry,
they've been starters largely throughout their Test careers. Henry Pollock's
been you know what is he twenty years old, the
absolute revelation for English rugby, big character, impressed during the
lines tour, came off the bench last week and scored
(13:05):
a try. So he's the epitome of a of an
impact player and Marcus Smith real live where if he
gets the license. Because the starting English team there's certainly
no ambiguity a bit about how they're going to play.
They've reinstated George Ford at ten and Freddie Stewart at
fullback and with Alex Mitchel a half back, they will
(13:26):
hoist to the heavens. I think they kept in four
tests this year, they've kept for over one thousand meters,
so you don't have to be Einstein to work out
how they're going to approach this.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Actually going to have a fair bit of catching to
do on Saturday and that's gonna be a real acid
test of what they can do that back three because
Will Jordan hasn't been the safest under the high ball,
Leroy Carter, the little man on the wing, lestifying Anoku
hasn't played a lot of wing in recent times as well.
Feels like an area of vulnerability for the All Blacks
(14:00):
because we're seeing against Scotland they haven't been able to
get it right for whatever reason. You know, it's been
a huge gaping problem in this All Blacks team and
again they haven't been able to fix it.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
Let's talk about the few records because they didn't touch
it on the earlier pod this week. England haven't beaten
the All Blacks anywhere for five years. Since the twenty
nineteen World Cup semi final. The All Blacks haven't lost
at Twickenham. They're unbeaten them five matches. They're going back
to twenty twelve. Steve Borthwick in his three year tenure
(14:36):
hasn't been the All Blacks, hasn't been the spring box.
What do you put the All Blacks recent dominance of
England down to, Because it hasn't been a golden period
for All Black reps.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
No, it hasn't. I think for an English team. They
are inconsistent with their selections and perhaps similar to the
All Blacks is that they have struggled to build an
identity about themselves in a way they want to play,
and the All Blacks have just been able to find
a moment or two to be the better of them.
And you compare the two benches this year to what
(15:08):
England rolled out last year, and they've obviously stacked the
bench this time around, but it's strong a bench and
they rolled out last year when things did fall away
for them in the last week. While you know that
they have found some key players and positions Fay were Boso,
Henry Pollock coming through as well. So the All Blacks
haven't certainly dominated England by any stretch of the imagination,
(15:29):
but they've just been able to find a key moment
here there, hang really tough in games and come out
on the right side of the LEGI you think that's
twenty twenty two when the All Blacks lead twenty five
to six against England with nine ten minutes to play
and then likes of Fretty Steward managed to score a
couple of tries, got to twenty five All probably would
(15:49):
have won it if the game had gone on for
two or three more minutes. That was as good as
they've looked against the All Blacks. But then things have
changed again. So it's a really intriguing there's no right
art wrong answer, But the best that they've looked at
is probably when Eddie Jones was coaching them back into
twenty twenty two Seal Blacks.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
Yeah, I think it's you're right.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
The identity thing is big for England's You look at
teams like Northampton who play quite attacking brand of rugby,
brilliant to watch, but that's not really England's DNA or
their identity, and they do have some attacking weapons. But
Borthwick is a lot more conservative generally as a coach,
and I think it's taken him time to develop the
(16:33):
style of rugby he wants to play. You see that
coming through with the bench there about. That's a clear
tactic about where he's going with this team. George Ford
is his ten for now. Last year it was Marcus Smith,
so I think he's settled on a few things, a
lot more sure in his mind how he wants to play,
who his men are. So this is the best England
(16:55):
have been under Bothwick. I don't think there's any doubt
about that. The one nine in a row, that record
is not amazing when you dive into it. But there
is a real confidence building within this English team and
it's an interesting sphere that in fronts this game because
this match will define both these team seasons. They're both
delicately poised. They're both looking for a significant scalp to
(17:17):
justify their improvements, their progress and if the All Black
swin pretty much bank the Grand Slam for the first
time in fifteen years, and people will say, yep, okay, Raiser,
we believe you you're on.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
The right track.
Speaker 4 (17:32):
If they don't, it raises a number of questions. And
it's the same for England. If their nine match winning
run comes to an end at home, people are like, oh, well,
we thought you were improving, but you're not quite there yet.
Speaker 2 (17:44):
That's exactly right, and that's why it feels so pervotal,
you know, for both sides this weekend. And I don't
think it's going to be I think it's going to
be you know, it's probably gonna be one score game
either way. It doesn't feel like either team's going to
be able to really flex on the opposition. I'd be surprised.
Maybe we'll come back and recall on Sundal on Monday
(18:06):
and we'll be eating our work, dudes, and there will
be a huge blowout. But it feels like with the
nerves and the storylines and everything going into this game,
it's poised for a grandstand finish and it could be
just you know, a moment or two and that's where
you do look to the bench and you do go, yep,
they're probably you know, stacking it with a lot of
(18:27):
Lions plays is a smart move from England. So to
the All Blacks, Yeah, again, whether their bench can stand
up where they get what they need out of McKenzie
Leonard Brown. You know Ratzima has played two minutes on
this tour so far. You wouldn't want to lose Roy
again that one hundred percent. I mean you look at
the All Blacks record with Roy guard over the last
(18:47):
couple of years is ridiculous. Didn't play against South Africa
this year. I think the only test, and may be
wrong about this is the French Test last year in
Paris that he's lost since Scott Robinson took over. He
is pivotal to this team. So does he stay on
for another you know minutes and then you basically give
(19:08):
him the last test of the year off next week
against Wales.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yep, definite.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
I mean going to look at It's just it's fascinating.
I think there's so many different storylines to the Hollis
might unfold this week, right, final thought from New Lam prediction.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
Please, Yes, this it pains me, Elias, but I've tipped
England all week and I'm not gonna waiver. Actually, I
just think there was an interesting stat today that there's
only five All Black starters returning from this time last
year at Twickenham, and I think that speaks to some
of the big outs in this team. No Jordi Barrett,
(19:45):
no Caleb Clark, Vi Patrick two polo to Tyro Lomax.
And this is at a time where the All Blacks
don't have strength and depth, and so I don't think
this is the best team.
Speaker 3 (19:58):
I'm not fully convinced by what we've seen the past
two weeks.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
I worry about the fatigue from last week having played
half an hour one man short.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Look, they could pull it the bag, the All Blacks.
But I just feel like.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
This is potentially going to be England's day, which is
going to be a tough pill to swallow. In front
of eighty two thousand at Twickenham.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, I'm going to say the All Blacks win by six.
Speaker 3 (20:20):
So there we go, There we go. Well, I hope
you're right.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
We will see right. That'll do us for Rugby Direct.
We will be back early part of next week with
a podcast. Will the All Blacks still be searching for
a Grand Slam or will we be talking about the
ramifications of a loss at Twickenham.
Speaker 3 (20:37):
But we'll put a pint on this one saying we've
got differing predictions.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, we will, all right done. We'll put a pint
of brains. Brains. That's exciting, you had brains. Hopefully it's
you shouting, not me right, that'll do us for Rugby
Direct powered by Excess Solutions, celebrating twenty five years in business.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
For more from News Talks ed B, listen live on
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