June 12, 2026 • 55 mins
The inimitable Milo gives us his unique rant on how he turned ex-gay, how the Trump movement lost its mojo, and why an unhinged Candace Owens is the best Candace Owens and the only hope for America right now.
(2:02) Damnatio Memoriae
(4:51) Turning to Faith
(6:32) Waking Up to Hell
(9:08) God Implanted in Everyone
(10:50) Epistemological Crisis
(13:00) Catholicism as Western Defense
(16:08) The Case of Candace Owens
(22:25) Candace as Anointed
(28:23) MAGA's Original Sin
(33:31) What Was It All For?
(37:44) Trump Didn't Think He'd Win
(44:20) America's Best and Worst
(47:02) Embrace the Iconoclasts
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Dinesh D'Souza is an author and filmmaker. A graduate of Dartmouth College, he was a senior domestic policy analyst in the Reagan administration. He also served as a research fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the Hoover Institution at Stanford University.
He is the author of many bestselling books, including "Illiberal Education," "What's So Great About Christianity," "America: Imagine a World Without Her," "The Roots of Obama's Rage," "Death of a Nation," and "United States of Socialism."
His documentary films "2016: Obama's America," "America," "Hillary's America," "Death of a Nation," and "Trump Card" are among the highest-grossing political documentaries of all time. He and his wife Debbie are also executive producers of the acclaimed feature film "Infidel."
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
So my little there's a there's a saying in boxing,
which you've probably heard, that everybody has a plan until
they get hit in the face.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You picked the one thing I don't know about sport.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Well, but I want to apply that more broadly to life.
Was there a point at which you were Life's hit
you in the face and you were forced to reevaluate
in a very fundamental way.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yes, well, the first time I was hitting the face
without asking for I suppose it happened when everybody knows
it happened about ten years ago, and it was. It's
upsetting for a slightly different reason than I think everybody
else has found cancelation upsetting, and I think I experienced
it differently, which is why I've come out of it differently.
(01:08):
I mean, everyone we know that was canceled has gone
absolutely bloody bonkers. I mean they're all mad. They're all mad.
I mean their personalities have collapsed and contracted around the
fact of their cancelation. The worst thing that ever happened,
I mean, I mean, Laura Lumer is just a lumine now.
The worst thing ever happened is getting her accounts back
because she doesn't know what she's supposed to be or
who she is. She's stumbled into being a lobbyist of
(01:30):
all things.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Laura Lumer.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, Yeah, It's an extraordinary sort of lunging, flailing, mispunching
kind of experience for everyone. I think I took the
longest to find something else to do, if you like.
But I think I've come out of it the sanest
out of all of them. My experience was not quite
like the others because I perhaps I don't know this reputation,
(02:00):
but I've always been very much as somebody that likes
to bring others up with them. And I don't spend
a great deal of time thinking about myself or my
certainly these days, about my happiness at all, really. But
I've always it's always been in a sort of reflexive,
instinctive mind to assist and to coach others. I've always,
(02:21):
you know, I've always had writing mentees on the on
the go and whatnot, and I had created that I
suppose I don't think I'm flattering myself to say a
whole little crop of you know, the sort of next
generation of conservative influences and whatnot, and to see, you know,
(02:41):
a choreographed assault greeted by people who owed everything to
me with a sort of awkward silence and looking the
other way. It's very painful. I don't think I'll ever
get over it. Maybe much less selfless of a person,
I suppose in some ways. But I got to see,
(03:04):
I got to see all my friends just decide that
I died because it was easier than confronting the fact
they hadn't done anything. And you'll know, because you're a
very learned person. In ancient Rome, when an emperor was
especially bad, they would after his death try to erase
any evidence that he had existed. Later they called it
(03:26):
the Nazio memorial. His his busts would be smashed, his
name would be chipped off buildings. But even the Pagans
never conceived of something so cruel as as as the
Nazi memorial that you lived to see that you have
to watch, you know, And so that was very difficult,
because you know, to to a great extent, the sort
(03:48):
of awful, clumsy simulacre of milo that are still, you know,
prancing around college stages and on TV and whatever. They
haven't really advanced or changed much since then. I think
you can still hear most of my speeches repeated on
most days on Fox and on most days on campus,
(04:09):
and doesn't seem to be very much in a way
of progress innovational development from the last ten years. People
just sort of thought, well, that works, so let's just
keep doing that. And so, you know, for a while
until I until I fell into something new, it was
very difficult. There's a phrase that I think gen Z's
is being trapped in the crystal, you know, And it
(04:29):
did look it did feel very much like that, you know,
sort of throwing everything at the wall and nothing would
nothing would work. There was a year I think I
spent about three million dollars on lawyers and security deposits
for events that never happened, not one. You know. In
the end, I just thought enough, Now, was this the
period in which you.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Began to think about your faith or was that separate
from this for sure?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I mean out of perhaps boredom and desperation to begin with. Yeah,
I mean, sometimes it's not always your mom dying, you know,
it's not always in the definitely, sometimes you just you
just have nothing going on. Well, I was, I was
born Catholic, and you don'top being Catholic, you just become
a bad one.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Right me, I mean me too, right right, Catholic in India,
that's unusual, which.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Probably probably from some ludicrously aristocratic class, aren't you. So
you get to all these extraordinary uh peculiarities of your
of your upbringing, I'm sure, but say Portuguese.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well, the Portuguese have colonies in the south of India,
a place called Goa, and yeah, and so the Portuguese
would convert the Hindus, and the Hindus would take a
Christian name, which for them was of course it's a
Portuguese name.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
And that's how I got to Suzu. I don't have
any wells is the classic Indian.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Name, of course.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Interesting and so back to so, so you were raised
Catholic in a in a devout or lukewarm kind of cathologism, oh.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
In a very in a very in a very angry, violent, passionate,
working class kind of environment. My mother was kind of
posh but poor, and my dad was basically what me
and my dad wasn't when I was crying. So there
wasn't much practice of the faith, but there was a
lot of texture a bit around, you know, And there
(06:28):
came a point when I woke up one morning next
to the person who was then my husband, I suppose,
and just looked at him and looked back at the wall,
and I just have this. I have a memory of
realizing that hell is real and I don't want to
go there. You know. It's not a very flattering thing
(06:50):
to tell the person that you wake up next to.
But I did.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And what did you say? You said it like that?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yes, I said Hell is real and I don't want
to go there. And I got out of bed and
didn't get back into it.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And what was the rest of reaction.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well, you know, when you make a big life change
like that, the people close to the people around your
already know, which just makes it worse because they're being
so great about it. You know, he wasn't forever, but
at the time it was, you know, sort of that's
that's two lives. I'm running there. But but I had
the opportunity to reconnect with and dive deeply into faith
(07:31):
in the way that I'd never done before. And it's now,
it's now one of the very few things I care about.
I got a Latin to you to learn Latin. I can.
I can just about do the Gospels, you know, backwards
and forwards now from English to Latin, which is nice,
nice thing to be able to do, and and and
so I take it very seriously.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And is it the you do take seriously? Is it
the the church, fathers, the the the intellectual dimension, liturgical,
all of it? What what what part of it appeals
to you the most?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Coming from this terrible affliction, this disease that I that
I have say what it is just for people facatory homosexuality,
I have found my conference salvation in the liturgy. The
(08:24):
the reason sort of doing Catholic stuff works really well
for addicts and for people who have other kinds of
things wrong with them, is that it's the set of
rituals that those addictive impulses are imitating in the first place.
So coming back to you know, doing a Holy Hour,
the Rosary and or the rest of it, it's it's
(08:46):
it's it's what you're It's what your dopamine circuits and
what your brain is trying to reconstruct when you're doing
cocaine or whatever it is. So it's it's one of
the most effective means by which people free themselves of
things like that. And and and the Church and our
world certainly saved me from from from that.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Now?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Do you think that the the idea of God, the
idea of cosmic justice, the idea of Hell is implanted
in every human being, but somehow submerged or maybe denied, or.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Do you think it's very submerged. I think people take
great pleasure, especially on this continent, of contemplating their enemies
plunging into hell fire. In fact, I think that's one
of the big dividing lines between us and the Protestants.
You know, I I look on with horror at you know,
some of these Baptist preachers who speak with evident glee
(09:46):
and anticipation about people they don't like, here being being
you know, condemned to eternal suffering for a Catholic, of course,
we know that that. You know, any any any addition
to Satan's ranks is a tragedy, and the death of
anybody who dies, you know, outside the state of grace,
a divorce from God is nothing to celebrate.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
It all.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
We wouldn't wish it even on our worst enemy.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Well we try not to, you know, we're not always
very good at it. You know. The praying for your
enemies thing is something I'm still working on, you know,
I like to say I've got well, I've got a
very long prayer list. I'll try to get to it,
you know. But no, it's it's always found it a
bit chilling on this continent, the manner in which people
(10:30):
are sort of anticipate eternal consequence for people who've irritated
them for a variety of very you know, in a
very variety of very trivial ways. No, I think everybody
knows it. I think we rely on it now, don't we.
We're entering this period of well, I think now, particularly
(10:50):
in America, everybody's living in a state of, if you like,
epistemological crisis, where it's basically now impossible for any private
citizen to find out what's real and true. You can't
listen to a politician about whether a medication works. You
can't listen to an expert on television about whether something
(11:12):
will be good or not. For the economy, you can't
trust historians to tell you the truth about what happened
or to evaccurate predictions about what will happen. You can't
trust economists to to you know, to accurately describe the
contours of let's say Trump's tariffs. None of us have
any idea, and we have no way to find out
(11:32):
because there's a whole you know, there's there's there's the
batteries of opposing experts, and we've shattered now not just
from sort of two sides as it was for decades,
but now into into into all of these you know,
rabbit holes and clusters and all. It's now basically impossible
for an educated layperson to find out whether Trump's tariffs
(11:53):
are good or whether they.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Worked you cover, or how the war is going any.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Or how it went in Ukraine if it's still going.
There's no way to know. There's no way to know,
and every sign, every indication that we have tells us
that we're being lied to. We just don't know what
about or how much. And so I think I've seen
an uptick in people speaking in supernatural terms, and certainly
(12:23):
I don't know how true it is. The numbers seem
to differ depending on who's doing them, but certainly a
lot of people have talked about a resurgence of Christian
and particularly Catholic faith among gen Z. I don't know
how real that is, but they seem to like the
idea of it.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
And it's part of it that the Catholic Church, for
all its problems, which are considerable, has been the bulwark
going all the way back to Peter in other words,
and an unbroken chain of continuity.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Of course, it's one of the only certain things. I
think it's possible to see Catholicism as standing in defiance
to two influences or two forces, either or both of
whom a person may find themselves opposed to as a
modern American conservative. The first is Islam, which I have
(13:20):
grown much more my affection for Islam, as has grown
as long the last ten years a lot actually, And
the other is Judaism. I mean, I think you could
see the history of the Supreme Court as Catholics v. Jews,
if you're oversimplified a bit like that. You know, the
great sort of intellectual arguments, the great you know, there's
(13:40):
a fault line between conservative Catholics and the liberl Jews,
I think in American life and always has been so.
I think I think perhaps you could see Catholicism as
as as defending the West on both fronts.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Islam on the one side, and now you mentioned liberal Jews,
I mean, the the weirdness with the Jews of courses
that they are a tribe and they're also a religion right,
and it's probably the case.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Counterfeit Canaanites in Israel. Yes, I suppose. What I mean is,
on the one side, you've got the simpler, easier to
understand direct civilizational threat from Islam, and on the other,
I think you have something that's gone a bit wrong.
(14:30):
We had for a long time. I think I think
it worked really well. A Christian majority Jewish minority Western
civilization seemed to produce great things. Christians who are always
uh the composers, the architects, the builders, the you know,
the the ones who who uh composed or painted or created.
(14:53):
But the Jews were unparalleled interpreters and critics, and they
would shed new lif on things. And and you know,
with with you can almost see this on Twitter a
little bit, can't you When when when when there's only
winning Christians in the room, things get a bit stale
quite quickly. So this, this relationship works really quite well
for a long time. But I do, if I'm honest,
(15:18):
buy into the some version of the Jewish revolutionary spirit thesis,
some form of it. And I think once you get
to a critical mass of of of for the sake
of your tender hearted viewers, I will say reformed Jews
will restrict it to that. You know, Let's say we
(15:40):
get to a critical mass of reform Jews in in in,
you know, positions of influence and power and executive authority everywhere.
Clearly it doesn't work so well. Uh, institutions begin to
eat themselves and things start to to start to start
to go a bit wrong. So I think I think
you could see Catholicism as as resisting both of those
(16:00):
equally dangerous threats.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Let's talk about Candace because I think that, well, I've
been struck by the ferocity of your defense of Candace,
the intensity of your affection for her.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
The she's something black I can love that won't send
me to hell?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
What do you what is it about her? Let me
tell you. Let me give you my theory on Candace.
And it's not a macro theory. It's it's more of
a micro theory.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
I think the.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I think the you are the only person who could
write the grand unifying theory. Yeah, you get on that.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
I'm not going to attempt it. But let me put
it this way. In Shakespeare's Othello, a fellow is actually
one of the few Shakespearean characters who's portrayed in one
dimensional terms. Right, He's going to be a bodiment of envy.
He's sort of pure evil, and he seems to be
to that degree a somewhat an interesting character. But the
(17:10):
truth of it is he figures out something about well, actually,
let me back up. I'm actually talking about Yago, not
about Othello. Of course Yago's one dimensional. Iago is pure evil,
but Yago has to figure out something about Othello that
(17:30):
the society around him and Othello himself doesn't know, because
that's going to be the key to bringing this big
man down. And I think Iago's insight is that Othello,
who's very comfortable in a certain way in Venice because
he's a you know, he's a military hero. He's he's
(17:51):
married the beautiful Destemna, who seems to adore him. But
he is an outsider, you know, and he is because
he's a more his position is less secure in his
own mind than maybe even in reality.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Are you talking about her or you?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Well, I'm talking now about.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Because that's quite a good description of how you've managed
to survive the raising of the Neocons and are still
a figure regarded with no small degree of affection.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
That's very interesting to say.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
More, don't hold back of what do you think? I mean? No,
I mean you've you've. I think that's a better description
of you. But if you're gonna if you're gonna hit
down the IAGA wrote with Candice, I think you're gonna
end up basically just saying she's a trickster figure or
she's something. No, No, I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I wasn't going there. Here's where I was going.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That that.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
When when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, and this is very
similar to what happened less they were JFK, a kind
of public mythology surrounds you. It surrounded Charlie, it's surrounded Erica.
They become, they become lionized to a degree that anyone
who is close to them knows is unreal. Right. JFK
was not Okay, they might exactly and JFK was not Camelot.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Perhaps if she were better interests.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Jackie Kennedy was not what she was made out to be.
And but what I mean is Candace knows this, and
I think that even though I don't know, I don't
follow her theories. I don't go down all these pathways.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
But it seems to me what she's really Candace. If
you don't follow Candace.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Well, I'm simply saying that what I think, I think
the key to Candace is basically what she's saying is
everybody really knows that there's something different than what the
public mythology is holding. Isn't that Don't you think.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
That's the key to It's too simple. There. There are
all kinds of what is Candace up to? There are
kinds of figures whose mythology we know to be a fiction,
but we go along with it because we like it,
because it suits us, because it amuses us, because we're
fond of those people. Nobody was fond of Charlie. This
is the You name someone you've enjoyed on the internet,
(20:16):
Charlie canceled them. Charlie was responsible for holding out all
of the iconoclastic and interesting figures in Conservatism over the
course of ten years and replacing them with imbeciles, with strippers,
with drag queens. He lowered the IQ of the conservative
(20:38):
movement by twenty five points. He may have been temporarily
useful electorally for Trump, maybe whatever, but nobody really liked him,
and even his best friends described him thereafter as well.
He could be very ruthless. And she's I mean, she's
one of the most unlikable women I've ever seen in
(20:58):
my life. They're they're they're not they're not conforming to
that to that archetype that you've identified, because they're not
grand historical figures. Neither of them were. This idea that
Charlie Court could have been present is preposterous, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
But he did build a large organization, right.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
He was a brilliant fundraiser, a brilliant networker, a brilliant
community organizer, had many great skills. But these are not
the things for which he has been celebrated posthumously. His
his wife is clearly a monster. I mean, you know,
we hear stories now of of people at her church
(21:41):
who tell tales of how she enters through a different door,
not bringing her children to church by the way, you know,
with the entourage you know, seen to be seen at church,
the kind of behaviors we know well and have seen before.
You know, she's she's a terrible actress who tells lots
and lots of life. I see Candice much more simply,
(22:03):
I don't feel the need to shoehorn her into you know,
into into into the role of of of a kind
of uh, you know, audience intimate talking about a grand
historical figure. Because because Charlie wasn't one that was her
best friend, someone killed him and everybody lied about it.
It's that simple. And and and she's in a position
(22:27):
where she has Jeremy Boring has said one insightful thing,
perhaps in his life, which was that Candice is sort
of as the energy of a like I can't remember
with the exact analogy. He said, something like a thermon
nuclear bond. You know, if you harness it, you can
do anything, but unleashed, you know, destroy the city. Unleashed
(22:50):
is precisely what we need in our pistemological crisis where
everyone is lying to us all the time about everything,
because just look the world that has been built by
the liars, by the transparent, obvious liars. It's the world
of COVID. You know, Erica Kirk is a creature of
the culture that gave us the COVID. She's a creature
(23:12):
of the culture.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
You know, what does she have to do with it?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Well, the kinds of lies they tell in the ways
they tell them, the kinds of mechanisms and strategies and
language and you know, I mean and occasionally the same
pr agencies. It's the same establishment that tried to pull
the wall over eyes unsuccessfully with one thing is doing
it just as badly with another. And they keep trying,
and they're doing Epstein again and again and again. They're
just not very good at this stuff, right, The Clintons
(23:36):
weren't good at it. You know. The establishment is failing
to keep the lower orders in line and has been
doing so for a long time. Candice is that Pakish, brave,
unusual and anointed, anonymous member of the pub who says,
(24:02):
hold up a second. And perhaps because of her race
and because she's charismatic and she was given a lot
without really having to work very hard for it because
of her talent and charisma and her skin color. In
the conservative movement, they sort of made her ungovernable, and
(24:25):
now by marriage she's become untouchable because she has resources.
And so now we see what a regular person freed
from the demands of their cortidian life and free to
pursue the real killer of their best friend, who can
say anything and do anything, and doesn't care if people
(24:48):
like her or don't like her, but every day for
an hour can explore in a directionally correct fashion, even
if the details take adjustment wrong away A more true
account of this, this gruesomely theatrical event. I mean, I've
(25:10):
never I've never been more disgusted, like viscerally disgusted in
my life by anything than Charlie Cirk's memorial. I mean,
it was just the most foul like spectacle I've ever
seen in my life. And there was something really sick
and wrong with it.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
And I was there what was theerie about it?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
There was something up with that event. The man, the
way in which the whole government decamped, uh, the speed
with which it came together, the the the the unapologetic,
unapologetically celebratory styling of.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
It, you know, in the most I mean, did you
even think that extraordinarily.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Tasteless where I mean the music is just you know,
imagine that it was cartoonishly terrible and and and you know,
a stomach churning, you know, heretical and and and nauseating music.
I mean, everything about it was tasteless, shameless, opportunistic and
looked pre planned, and it was gross it was really gross,
(26:07):
and you know it was. It was everything that a
memorial should not be, because it wasn't for him, it
was for everybody else. It was for the people on stage,
it was for the people left behind. It was for
the people perhaps who had an inkling it might be
coming or whatever. I don't know that. But one thing
we know for sure is when the authorities a lying
(26:28):
to us, because they're really bad at it. Now. So
when we Mandalai Bay, for instance, right, we still know
nothing about the guy right he shot dozens of people.
I mean, we have the Instagram accounts of people who
you know, shoplift from publics within twenty minutes. We know nothing, nothing,
well nothing about Mandalay Bay. And they didn't even do
(26:49):
a good job of giving us a face. And there
are things about Charlie Cook's death that do not add
up and that are not true. I know for a fact,
incontrovertible and unambiguous fact that up until a month after ago,
he still hadn't been buried. He may still not have
been buried. I don't know that because I haven't checked
(27:10):
in on it. But there are weird things going on
with that man's death. The manner in which he's being
remembered is not the person he was. The wife is
a gargoyle, she's a grotesque, she's a peculiarity. She's so awful.
She can only be a distraction, should only be there
on purpose because she's so dreadful. There's stuff up with it,
(27:30):
And thank god we have somebody who's not afraid to
say so. When everybody else who has some kind of
entanglement with either this administration or turning point rit large
because of its outside footprint on the movement or some
other you know, periphery or satellite person entity or potted money.
(27:57):
Thank god Candice is saying that not up, that doesn't
mat up, and that doesn't matter up what's really going on.
I'm just filled with the conviction that Candace is in
some way anointed because and I don't mean that in
the partisan sense, you know what, but I just I
just think the Holy Spirit just seems to like embarrassing
people who about Candace omens and it's it's like, it's, well.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I think what you're saying is that that we live
in a society where the emperor has no clothes and.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
No no, I mean, I mean something more than that.
I'm saying, I'm saying, even when she shouldn't be right,
when she didn't even check if she was right, I'm
gonna take when when, When, When, when there's no earthly
reason how she could possibly be right, Suddenly she's right
about something in a way that I mean Christians is
don't believing coincidences. She just keeps embarrassing her critics in
(28:45):
a in a in a dazzling manner that you don't
really see outside of parable.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
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What do you make about the Trump movement? The Trump
movement which arrived at it seems a rather desperate moment
for the country, right when the left had almost gotten well,
(32:35):
it's had a pretty good stranglehold on the culture. But
when you combine that with a stranglehold on politics and
an ability to shut down the other side, you begin
to feel this sense of helplessness. I mean, all of
us did well.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I didn't feel helplessness. I felt responsibility. I felt at
t two, which is why I went and did something
about it and single handedly ended the hysteria about campus
rape culture or single handedly killed the wage gap mythology.
There's a lot of things I did that I was
(33:09):
soon to pay for. I didn't feel helpless at all.
I felt I felt nobless oblige about it because you know, well,
I can definitely do something about that because those people
are hopeless. It's not going to be that difficult, you know,
And it wasn't. But uh, you have to ask yourself
(33:32):
what it was all for. If Trump is going to
start new wars in the Middle least, if we're going
to be subjected to the the humiliation ritual of Erica Kirk.
If you know, as has been the case systematically for
ten years, that the Margat movement is going to excommunicate
(33:52):
all the people who made it in the first place
and who gave it its aviva and its intellectual ballast,
you know, And is it that it has done that?
I mean, I was a much more prominent figure in
twenty sixteen than I am now. There were people in
the campaign and said I was one of the seven
or eight people who put him in office. I think
that's silly, but they were saying it then immediately after
(34:15):
the election. As soon as he was in office, they
could not keep me further away. New White House interns
during Trump's first administration were asked on day one when
they got into the combat, are you a fan of
Alex Jones or mileyon opus? And if anybody put their
hand up, they were escorted off the premises. And just
(34:38):
look at what he's done to Marjorie Taylor Green. He's
done it over and over and over again. There are
no OG's left, There are no Margaret OG's left, only interlopers, avist's,
only fakes, frauds and ladders and flatterers, exactly, exactly, there's
nobody left who actually made the movement as I was
(34:59):
there when he came down the Golden elevator. None of
the rest of you were. I was there, and those
of us who were there at the beginning, and who
created it, who forged it, who gave it its personality.
We've been out of circulation for half a decade or more,
and now inevitably the administration is lapsing into a kind
(35:22):
of slightly more boisterous and clownish Clinton administration. I mean,
what are they really doing that different? Uh? You know,
I don't think Hillary. I don't think Hillary is like
a super woke person. There's no evidence that she's you know,
she'd be into trans pronounces. Sure, she would do it
(35:44):
for ellectoral advantage if it were a popular rest of it,
but she's not. She's not into all that stuff. What
is what is Trump doing right now that would be
so different? That is that that would be totally alien
to to a Clintonian presidency all that much, not really
especially economically. So you know, I I don't know what
it was all for. I think maybe we just bought
ourselves ten.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Years well, one way of looking at it is people
would say, in the in the Reagan years, there was
this thing called Reaganism, which was a set of ideas
and so.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
All very good ones.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Well maybe, but nevertheless the point being that Reaganism, you know,
you didn't actually if somebody applied for a job in
the White House, you didn't have to go ask Reagan
because everybody knew what Reaganism was. In fact, when I
interviewed at the White House in my twenties, one of
(36:37):
the questions they asked were are you a Reaganite? Right?
And they asked, it is if it was the most
obvious thing in the world as to what that is,
how do.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
You imagine now that people would say yes with a
note of product.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Their was.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
The reason there's no easy answer about what trump Ism
or marga is is because other than retaining the elements,
beliefs and people that made it, instead it just simply
collapse around the person. And we always knew Donald Trump
was not a particularly pleasant person. We tolerated it, we
(37:14):
found it funny, and we liked it when it was
when it was aimed at our enemies. But now that
he's rolled over for pick your you choose your conspiracy
theory of entrenched interests as to who he's rolled over to.
Now he's rolled over and done the same things all
the others.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Do you know it could it be that he could
be that he from the beginning was not quite I
mean no New Wars.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yes, he didn't think he was going to win. I
was there.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
He didn't think he was going to think.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
He didn't think for a second he was going to win.
He was stunned and probably devastated that he won.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Devastated in what way?
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Because he wasn't planning for it. He didn't think he
was going to and he never thought he'd have to
contemplate the reality of it. I see. It was probably
the only person at the victory party in twenty sixteen
that actually thought he was gonna win. Well, there about
three of us, But when you walked in there, it
was a silence, ashen faced. It was. It was it
was the dead calm of defeat. Everybody had accepted the
(38:18):
extraordinary cathedral of fantastical lies that had been construos bit
by bit by bit by bit up to finally being
able to say ninety eight percent. You know, I didn't
believe it for a second, not for a moment, and
I was right and everybody else was wrong. But first
(38:40):
first administration pointless, and then he concedes an election he
won to Biden a week and then the third administration, well,
it started well, but very quickly it became apparent that
they were good at talking and not quite so good
at doing. And they were saying lots of things that
were making people go oh amazing, but most of the
(39:02):
reality it was being unpicked by the courts, or it
was just not happening. And now, of course he has
begun another Middle Eastern war, and I'm off the train.
I'm done, I'm over it, I'm out, I'm not I'm
not doing it anymore. Epstein was bad enough. Epstein you
have to understand. It was a Epstein was part of
(39:24):
the founding mythology of Margaret. It was one of the
central ideological planks. Not necessarily although for most people probably
the literal claim that we were ruled over by Elie
international pedophiles, although that does seem to be not too
far from the truth, but the the idea, the way
(39:44):
back and put it that Epstein is the key that
you know, the key that that that unlocks. There was
a there was a there's it was a conviction amongst
us all that understanding Epstein's place in the world, him
and people like him would reveal some layer of reality,
some underpinning architecture of the world, and we would understand
(40:07):
why it is that some people always seem to get
away with things, and why it is that other people
can't put a foot wrong, and why it is that,
you know, there seemed to be three four, five different
tiers of justice depending on where you come from, what
you believe, and how you behave and and and why
the world is weird. The world's off. It's a bit peculiar,
(40:29):
you know, and it has been since I guess since
maybe the eighties and nineties, right, that first flush of
political correctness in the nineties, right, that starts to steal
the oxygen out of the room from the self confident,
the self confidence of the of the of the you know,
the economic nineteen eighties kind of right, And then the
(40:51):
nineties was a very the nineties was a very culturally
self confident time. I mean, you know, for me, at
least at a britpop this spice girls, you know, people
were happy over here. It was it was we were
on the verge of racial harmony, fresh Prince of Abrella,
you know suddenly that it was it was, it was
(41:11):
whatever you know, uh, and then and then suddenly it
began to go into retrograde. I think also with the
O J Verdict too, when America realized when America's like, oh,
hang on a minute, you don't mind us watching your
shows and laughing along with you, but but you won't
convict and obviously guilty guy. Right, things start to go
wrong in the nineties, right, and and the world's been
(41:32):
the world's been peculiar since, and the world's been slepping.
I mean, the whole American public life is built on lies.
It's built on untruths, It's built on on deceptions, not
on polite fictions in the manner of previous rulers. Things
that we all agree to go along with because because
(41:53):
it's for the common good, or things that we tell
the lower orders because you know it would be it
would be so as stress for them to find out otherwise. No, no,
just just just just widespread, chaotic, unplanned, and ubiquitouslies.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
So where does that leave us, smiler, Because what it
seems to me, like.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Candace, Candice, Candace Candace. The all we have. All we
have is those few people with the courage, even if
they're ridiculous people, even if they're wrong, and I don't
happen to think she's either, even if they're ridiculous, even
if they're wrong, the people who won't go along with
it all. My day job is managing UH legal affairs
(42:46):
and and other matters for another such person, which is
Kanye West. And yes, and I think perhaps the ungovernerability
of Black America has produced a disproportionate number of Black
Americans who are not prepared to go along with it all.
They've always had a creditable skepticism about vaccines and things
(43:10):
like that. Turned out they were right every time about
all of it. And now I think we're seeing more.
I mean, you know, Yay Yay really just just burst
through the final taboo in Western culture and lived to
tell the tale. He's, you know, performing in La next month.
You know he's going to be all right. That kind
(43:30):
of courage is rare, and that kind of courage, for me,
is one of the only if we are living in
this epistemological crisis, people who are imperfectly but sincerely fumbling
their way through the darkness, but with more urgency and
(43:51):
more energy than the rest of us, and who are
managing to find things that the rest of us don't
and drawing attention to things that the rest of us
would not have noticed. They're the only hope we have
of making it out because one of them is going
to be right. They're all we have because everybody else
(44:14):
is lying.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Is it difficult for you to retain even a mordicum
of patriotism under conditions like this? I mean, the United
States that you're describing is pretty close to an evil empire.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yes, it is, isn't it. I mean, I've got an
easy get out on British so I can I can
retreat into my Chintz, into my I can retreat into
my into my Princess Diana memorabilia and dream of a
dream of a world without Megan Marckle in it. You
see everything America touches does. Yeah. I used to say
(45:00):
and believe up until very recently, that this was the
greatest country in the history of human civilization. It probably was,
but it ain't now. Ah, It's still the best hope
that humanity has. But I don't know how we get
out of the darkness that we're in unless we do
(45:24):
something that America has never been comfortable doing, and that is,
you know, America, America as a as A as A
as A as A as a network of systems. America
awards not mediocrity exactly, but reliability are regularity, consistency. Right,
(45:45):
the biggest podcasts are by and large by the most
consistent performers, not the most interesting, not the funniest, not
the most brilliant or insightful, not the most literary, not
the most handsome. They're the people who, if you're turn
it on, you know exactly what you're gonna get.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
It's a reliable product.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Right, It's a reliable product. And and and America is
as has rewarded that in all ways person and and
and you know, and and and both both the human
and the industrial and every you know. But it's going
to have to start embracing the weirdos, the iconoclasts, the
peculiar people, because I think it when there's there's been
(46:33):
a there's been a glut of books over the last
few decades about the problem, and nobody's quite described it correctly,
whether you know the filter bubble or moral panics or whatever.
It is you know, when when smart people get it
wrong and all get it wrong in the same way
at the same time, and in fact seem more susceptible
(46:53):
to to nonsense than than than everybody else. Will We
now live in a country owned and operated entirely by
the people who think they're small, you know, by the
permanent by the permanent administrative class, right, the teachers, the doctors,
the lawyers, the people who work in Washington. And they're idiots,
(47:15):
They're stupid people who don't know anything, who could never
who could never make a reference to Shakespeare. You know,
they're still correct themselves because they'll they'll never encounter it.
They don't know anything, but they are quite quite confident
(47:36):
in their own brilliance and moral uh and more righteousness.
And it's the right, it's the left, it's everywhere, and
that's cultifying sort of, you know. And the dieing, eternally
grinning face of the of the administrative class. It is
killing the country. It's killing the country. And I think,
(47:58):
you know, I easy for me to say support the iconoclasts,
because where would I be otherwise? But I actually left
a continent that does quite a good job of accommodating
eccentrics true too, especially Britain of all places, to a
country that doesn't handle them so well and hasn't handled
(48:21):
me well, because this is the only place really that
matters in in you know, in that in that way,
and I'm just I'm very relieved to see the contours
of the battle lines as they're being drawn. And I
(48:43):
always winced when they put you on the wrong side,
because I know you're secretly one of us, but they
always put you with the with the Dave Rubens and
the and the Ben Shapiros and the and the turning points.
And I'm like, no, no of us.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Remember I'm one of the founders of Darkness Review.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
I'm aware of that. But but you know, I've learned,
I've learned, I've learned forgiveness, charity. No. Look, what makes
you unusual and distinctive and interesting is that ten twenty
thirty is later, you're still listening, which is not usual
(49:23):
for people of your generation. It's not usual either for
people of your accomplishments. Consider the manner in which Bill
Crystal has switched off, you know, for quite some time now,
he's no longer capable of contributing to the national politics
he's not listening anymore because he's he's perfectly happy to
(49:44):
be the last guy standing, you know, and and you're
not quite like that, which is why one of us.
And also also because everyone else on your side is
fucking boring, absolutely unbearable. I mean, do you really want
to spend the rest of your life with Dave Rubin?
Of course you don't, you know, you want to be
over here with with with Candice and Milo and even
(50:06):
Andrew Tate. You know, of course you do. Of course
you do, so does everybody, So does everybody. But the
way that the battle lines have been drawn, and you'll
occasionally see, you know, infographics going around of you know,
sort of the goodies and the bad eats on the
on the right these days, that gives me a little hope,
(50:26):
because there's really nobody above the there's nobody above the
socially acceptable line that anybody wants to listen to more
than fifteen minutes, And there's a sort of and none
of them have had anything, you need to say for
about twenty years, and and then and they don't have listeners,
and they don't have they don't have joy. They're not
(50:47):
happy people. They're not happy people. They're miserable people. They're
they're they're they're frantic and desperate. And you know, you
see it in that, you see in Turning Point, you
see in Erica. You see it, you know, starting to
you're starting to see the first signs of it in
this administration. People just clinging to sinecures, you know, because
(51:08):
that's what they have now. But there are people trying
to build things and do things and think of things
and come up with stuff and found things in the
very messy, imperfect, sometimes ridiculous, often wrong, dissident half, which
is where all the people of good and noble character
(51:30):
live because there's nowhere else for them now.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
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So my little there's a there's a saying in boxing,
which you've probably heard, that everybody has a plan until
they get hit in the face.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
You picked the one thing I don't know about sport.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Well, but I want to apply that more broadly to life.
Was there a point at which you were Life's hit
you in the face and you were forced to reevaluate
in a very fundamental way.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Yes, well, the first time I was hitting the face
without asking for I suppose it happened when everybody knows
it happened about ten years ago, and it was. It's
upsetting for a slightly different reason than I think everybody
else has found cancelation upsetting, and I think I experienced
it differently, which is why I've come out of it differently.
(01:08):
I mean, everyone we know that was canceled has gone
absolutely bloody bonkers. I mean they're all mad. They're all mad.
I mean their personalities have collapsed and contracted around the
fact of their cancelation. The worst thing that ever happened,
I mean, I mean, Laura Lumer is just a lumine now.
The worst thing ever happened is getting her accounts back
because she doesn't know what she's supposed to be or
who she is. She's stumbled into being a lobbyist of
(01:30):
all things.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Laura Lumer.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, Yeah, It's an extraordinary sort of lunging, flailing, mispunching
kind of experience for everyone. I think I took the
longest to find something else to do, if you like.
But I think I've come out of it the sanest
out of all of them. My experience was not quite
like the others because I perhaps I don't know this reputation,
(02:00):
but I've always been very much as somebody that likes
to bring others up with them. And I don't spend
a great deal of time thinking about myself or my
certainly these days, about my happiness at all, really. But
I've always it's always been in a sort of reflexive,
instinctive mind to assist and to coach others. I've always,
(02:21):
you know, I've always had writing mentees on the on
the go and whatnot, and I had created that I
suppose I don't think I'm flattering myself to say a
whole little crop of you know, the sort of next
generation of conservative influences and whatnot, and to see, you know,
(02:41):
a choreographed assault greeted by people who owed everything to
me with a sort of awkward silence and looking the
other way. It's very painful. I don't think I'll ever
get over it. Maybe much less selfless of a person,
I suppose in some ways. But I got to see,
(03:04):
I got to see all my friends just decide that
I died because it was easier than confronting the fact
they hadn't done anything. And you'll know, because you're a
very learned person. In ancient Rome, when an emperor was
especially bad, they would after his death try to erase
any evidence that he had existed. Later they called it
(03:26):
the Nazio memorial. His his busts would be smashed, his
name would be chipped off buildings. But even the Pagans
never conceived of something so cruel as as as the
Nazi memorial that you lived to see that you have
to watch, you know, And so that was very difficult,
because you know, to to a great extent, the sort
(03:48):
of awful, clumsy simulacre of milo that are still, you know,
prancing around college stages and on TV and whatever. They
haven't really advanced or changed much since then. I think
you can still hear most of my speeches repeated on
most days on Fox and on most days on campus,
(04:09):
and doesn't seem to be very much in a way
of progress innovational development from the last ten years. People
just sort of thought, well, that works, so let's just
keep doing that. And so, you know, for a while
until I until I fell into something new, it was
very difficult. There's a phrase that I think gen Z's
is being trapped in the crystal, you know, And it
(04:29):
did look it did feel very much like that, you know,
sort of throwing everything at the wall and nothing would
nothing would work. There was a year I think I
spent about three million dollars on lawyers and security deposits
for events that never happened, not one. You know. In
the end, I just thought enough, Now, was this the
period in which you.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Began to think about your faith or was that separate
from this for sure?
Speaker 2 (04:56):
I mean out of perhaps boredom and desperation to begin with. Yeah,
I mean, sometimes it's not always your mom dying, you know,
it's not always in the definitely, sometimes you just you
just have nothing going on. Well, I was, I was
born Catholic, and you don'top being Catholic, you just become
a bad one.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
Right me, I mean me too, right right, Catholic in India,
that's unusual, which.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Probably probably from some ludicrously aristocratic class, aren't you. So
you get to all these extraordinary uh peculiarities of your
of your upbringing, I'm sure, but say Portuguese.
Speaker 3 (05:34):
Well, the Portuguese have colonies in the south of India,
a place called Goa, and yeah, and so the Portuguese
would convert the Hindus, and the Hindus would take a
Christian name, which for them was of course it's a
Portuguese name.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
And that's how I got to Suzu. I don't have
any wells is the classic Indian.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
Name, of course.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Interesting and so back to so, so you were raised
Catholic in a in a devout or lukewarm kind of cathologism, oh.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
In a very in a very in a very angry, violent, passionate,
working class kind of environment. My mother was kind of
posh but poor, and my dad was basically what me
and my dad wasn't when I was crying. So there
wasn't much practice of the faith, but there was a
lot of texture a bit around, you know, And there
(06:28):
came a point when I woke up one morning next
to the person who was then my husband, I suppose,
and just looked at him and looked back at the wall,
and I just have this. I have a memory of
realizing that hell is real and I don't want to
go there. You know. It's not a very flattering thing
(06:50):
to tell the person that you wake up next to.
But I did.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
And what did you say? You said it like that?
Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yes, I said Hell is real and I don't want
to go there. And I got out of bed and
didn't get back into it.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
And what was the rest of reaction.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well, you know, when you make a big life change
like that, the people close to the people around your
already know, which just makes it worse because they're being
so great about it. You know, he wasn't forever, but
at the time it was, you know, sort of that's
that's two lives. I'm running there. But but I had
the opportunity to reconnect with and dive deeply into faith
(07:31):
in the way that I'd never done before. And it's now,
it's now one of the very few things I care about.
I got a Latin to you to learn Latin. I can.
I can just about do the Gospels, you know, backwards
and forwards now from English to Latin, which is nice,
nice thing to be able to do, and and and
so I take it very seriously.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And is it the you do take seriously? Is it
the the church, fathers, the the the intellectual dimension, liturgical,
all of it? What what what part of it appeals
to you the most?
Speaker 2 (08:02):
Coming from this terrible affliction, this disease that I that
I have say what it is just for people facatory homosexuality,
I have found my conference salvation in the liturgy. The
(08:24):
the reason sort of doing Catholic stuff works really well
for addicts and for people who have other kinds of
things wrong with them, is that it's the set of
rituals that those addictive impulses are imitating in the first place.
So coming back to you know, doing a Holy Hour,
the Rosary and or the rest of it, it's it's
(08:46):
it's it's what you're It's what your dopamine circuits and
what your brain is trying to reconstruct when you're doing
cocaine or whatever it is. So it's it's one of
the most effective means by which people free themselves of
things like that. And and and the Church and our
world certainly saved me from from from that.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
Now?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Do you think that the the idea of God, the
idea of cosmic justice, the idea of Hell is implanted
in every human being, but somehow submerged or maybe denied, or.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Do you think it's very submerged. I think people take
great pleasure, especially on this continent, of contemplating their enemies
plunging into hell fire. In fact, I think that's one
of the big dividing lines between us and the Protestants.
You know, I I look on with horror at you know,
some of these Baptist preachers who speak with evident glee
(09:46):
and anticipation about people they don't like, here being being
you know, condemned to eternal suffering for a Catholic, of course,
we know that that. You know, any any any addition
to Satan's ranks is a tragedy, and the death of
anybody who dies, you know, outside the state of grace,
a divorce from God is nothing to celebrate.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
It all.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
We wouldn't wish it even on our worst enemy.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Well we try not to, you know, we're not always
very good at it. You know. The praying for your
enemies thing is something I'm still working on, you know,
I like to say I've got well, I've got a
very long prayer list. I'll try to get to it,
you know. But no, it's it's always found it a
bit chilling on this continent, the manner in which people
(10:30):
are sort of anticipate eternal consequence for people who've irritated
them for a variety of very you know, in a
very variety of very trivial ways. No, I think everybody
knows it. I think we rely on it now, don't we.
We're entering this period of well, I think now, particularly
(10:50):
in America, everybody's living in a state of, if you like,
epistemological crisis, where it's basically now impossible for any private
citizen to find out what's real and true. You can't
listen to a politician about whether a medication works. You
can't listen to an expert on television about whether something
(11:12):
will be good or not. For the economy, you can't
trust historians to tell you the truth about what happened
or to evaccurate predictions about what will happen. You can't
trust economists to to you know, to accurately describe the
contours of let's say Trump's tariffs. None of us have
any idea, and we have no way to find out
(11:32):
because there's a whole you know, there's there's there's the
batteries of opposing experts, and we've shattered now not just
from sort of two sides as it was for decades,
but now into into into all of these you know,
rabbit holes and clusters and all. It's now basically impossible
for an educated layperson to find out whether Trump's tariffs
(11:53):
are good or whether they.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Worked you cover, or how the war is going any.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Or how it went in Ukraine if it's still going.
There's no way to know. There's no way to know,
and every sign, every indication that we have tells us
that we're being lied to. We just don't know what
about or how much. And so I think I've seen
an uptick in people speaking in supernatural terms, and certainly
(12:23):
I don't know how true it is. The numbers seem
to differ depending on who's doing them, but certainly a
lot of people have talked about a resurgence of Christian
and particularly Catholic faith among gen Z. I don't know
how real that is, but they seem to like the
idea of it.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
And it's part of it that the Catholic Church, for
all its problems, which are considerable, has been the bulwark
going all the way back to Peter in other words,
and an unbroken chain of continuity.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Of course, it's one of the only certain things. I
think it's possible to see Catholicism as standing in defiance
to two influences or two forces, either or both of
whom a person may find themselves opposed to as a
modern American conservative. The first is Islam, which I have
(13:20):
grown much more my affection for Islam, as has grown
as long the last ten years a lot actually, And
the other is Judaism. I mean, I think you could
see the history of the Supreme Court as Catholics v. Jews,
if you're oversimplified a bit like that. You know, the
great sort of intellectual arguments, the great you know, there's
(13:40):
a fault line between conservative Catholics and the liberl Jews,
I think in American life and always has been so.
I think I think perhaps you could see Catholicism as
as as defending the West on both fronts.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Islam on the one side, and now you mentioned liberal Jews,
I mean, the the weirdness with the Jews of courses
that they are a tribe and they're also a religion right,
and it's probably the case.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Counterfeit Canaanites in Israel. Yes, I suppose. What I mean is,
on the one side, you've got the simpler, easier to
understand direct civilizational threat from Islam, and on the other,
I think you have something that's gone a bit wrong.
(14:30):
We had for a long time. I think I think
it worked really well. A Christian majority Jewish minority Western
civilization seemed to produce great things. Christians who are always
uh the composers, the architects, the builders, the you know,
the the ones who who uh composed or painted or created.
(14:53):
But the Jews were unparalleled interpreters and critics, and they
would shed new lif on things. And and you know,
with with you can almost see this on Twitter a
little bit, can't you When when when when there's only
winning Christians in the room, things get a bit stale
quite quickly. So this, this relationship works really quite well
for a long time. But I do, if I'm honest,
(15:18):
buy into the some version of the Jewish revolutionary spirit thesis,
some form of it. And I think once you get
to a critical mass of of of for the sake
of your tender hearted viewers, I will say reformed Jews
will restrict it to that. You know, Let's say we
(15:40):
get to a critical mass of reform Jews in in in,
you know, positions of influence and power and executive authority everywhere.
Clearly it doesn't work so well. Uh, institutions begin to
eat themselves and things start to to start to start
to go a bit wrong. So I think I think
you could see Catholicism as as resisting both of those
(16:00):
equally dangerous threats.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Let's talk about Candace because I think that, well, I've
been struck by the ferocity of your defense of Candace,
the intensity of your affection for her.
Speaker 2 (16:21):
The she's something black I can love that won't send
me to hell?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
What do you what is it about her? Let me
tell you. Let me give you my theory on Candace.
And it's not a macro theory. It's it's more of
a micro theory.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
I think the.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
I think the you are the only person who could
write the grand unifying theory. Yeah, you get on that.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
I'm not going to attempt it. But let me put
it this way. In Shakespeare's Othello, a fellow is actually
one of the few Shakespearean characters who's portrayed in one
dimensional terms. Right, He's going to be a bodiment of envy.
He's sort of pure evil, and he seems to be
to that degree a somewhat an interesting character. But the
(17:10):
truth of it is he figures out something about well, actually,
let me back up. I'm actually talking about Yago, not
about Othello. Of course Yago's one dimensional. Iago is pure evil,
but Yago has to figure out something about Othello that
(17:30):
the society around him and Othello himself doesn't know, because
that's going to be the key to bringing this big
man down. And I think Iago's insight is that Othello,
who's very comfortable in a certain way in Venice because
he's a you know, he's a military hero. He's he's
(17:51):
married the beautiful Destemna, who seems to adore him. But
he is an outsider, you know, and he is because
he's a more his position is less secure in his
own mind than maybe even in reality.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
Are you talking about her or you?
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Well, I'm talking now about.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
Because that's quite a good description of how you've managed
to survive the raising of the Neocons and are still
a figure regarded with no small degree of affection.
Speaker 1 (18:24):
That's very interesting to say.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
More, don't hold back of what do you think? I mean? No,
I mean you've you've. I think that's a better description
of you. But if you're gonna if you're gonna hit
down the IAGA wrote with Candice, I think you're gonna
end up basically just saying she's a trickster figure or
she's something. No, No, I wasn't.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
I wasn't going there. Here's where I was going.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
That that.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
When when Charlie Kirk was assassinated, and this is very
similar to what happened less they were JFK, a kind
of public mythology surrounds you. It surrounded Charlie, it's surrounded Erica.
They become, they become lionized to a degree that anyone
who is close to them knows is unreal. Right. JFK
was not Okay, they might exactly and JFK was not Camelot.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Perhaps if she were better interests.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Jackie Kennedy was not what she was made out to be.
And but what I mean is Candace knows this, and
I think that even though I don't know, I don't
follow her theories. I don't go down all these pathways.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
But it seems to me what she's really Candace. If
you don't follow Candace.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
Well, I'm simply saying that what I think, I think
the key to Candace is basically what she's saying is
everybody really knows that there's something different than what the
public mythology is holding. Isn't that Don't you think.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
That's the key to It's too simple. There. There are
all kinds of what is Candace up to? There are
kinds of figures whose mythology we know to be a fiction,
but we go along with it because we like it,
because it suits us, because it amuses us, because we're
fond of those people. Nobody was fond of Charlie. This
is the You name someone you've enjoyed on the internet,
(20:16):
Charlie canceled them. Charlie was responsible for holding out all
of the iconoclastic and interesting figures in Conservatism over the
course of ten years and replacing them with imbeciles, with strippers,
with drag queens. He lowered the IQ of the conservative
(20:38):
movement by twenty five points. He may have been temporarily
useful electorally for Trump, maybe whatever, but nobody really liked him,
and even his best friends described him thereafter as well.
He could be very ruthless. And she's I mean, she's
one of the most unlikable women I've ever seen in
(20:58):
my life. They're they're they're not they're not conforming to
that to that archetype that you've identified, because they're not
grand historical figures. Neither of them were. This idea that
Charlie Court could have been present is preposterous, it's ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
But he did build a large organization, right.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
He was a brilliant fundraiser, a brilliant networker, a brilliant
community organizer, had many great skills. But these are not
the things for which he has been celebrated posthumously. His
his wife is clearly a monster. I mean, you know,
we hear stories now of of people at her church
(21:41):
who tell tales of how she enters through a different door,
not bringing her children to church by the way, you know,
with the entourage you know, seen to be seen at church,
the kind of behaviors we know well and have seen before.
You know, she's she's a terrible actress who tells lots
and lots of life. I see Candice much more simply,
(22:03):
I don't feel the need to shoehorn her into you know,
into into into the role of of of a kind
of uh, you know, audience intimate talking about a grand
historical figure. Because because Charlie wasn't one that was her
best friend, someone killed him and everybody lied about it.
It's that simple. And and and she's in a position
(22:27):
where she has Jeremy Boring has said one insightful thing,
perhaps in his life, which was that Candice is sort
of as the energy of a like I can't remember
with the exact analogy. He said, something like a thermon
nuclear bond. You know, if you harness it, you can
do anything, but unleashed, you know, destroy the city. Unleashed
(22:50):
is precisely what we need in our pistemological crisis where
everyone is lying to us all the time about everything,
because just look the world that has been built by
the liars, by the transparent, obvious liars. It's the world
of COVID. You know, Erica Kirk is a creature of
the culture that gave us the COVID. She's a creature
(23:12):
of the culture.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
You know, what does she have to do with it?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Well, the kinds of lies they tell in the ways
they tell them, the kinds of mechanisms and strategies and
language and you know, I mean and occasionally the same
pr agencies. It's the same establishment that tried to pull
the wall over eyes unsuccessfully with one thing is doing
it just as badly with another. And they keep trying,
and they're doing Epstein again and again and again. They're
just not very good at this stuff, right, The Clintons
(23:36):
weren't good at it. You know. The establishment is failing
to keep the lower orders in line and has been
doing so for a long time. Candice is that Pakish, brave,
unusual and anointed, anonymous member of the pub who says,
(24:02):
hold up a second. And perhaps because of her race
and because she's charismatic and she was given a lot
without really having to work very hard for it because
of her talent and charisma and her skin color. In
the conservative movement, they sort of made her ungovernable, and
(24:25):
now by marriage she's become untouchable because she has resources.
And so now we see what a regular person freed
from the demands of their cortidian life and free to
pursue the real killer of their best friend, who can
say anything and do anything, and doesn't care if people
(24:48):
like her or don't like her, but every day for
an hour can explore in a directionally correct fashion, even
if the details take adjustment wrong away A more true
account of this, this gruesomely theatrical event. I mean, I've
(25:10):
never I've never been more disgusted, like viscerally disgusted in
my life by anything than Charlie Cirk's memorial. I mean,
it was just the most foul like spectacle I've ever
seen in my life. And there was something really sick
and wrong with it.
Speaker 1 (25:23):
And I was there what was theerie about it?
Speaker 2 (25:27):
There was something up with that event. The man, the
way in which the whole government decamped, uh, the speed
with which it came together, the the the the unapologetic,
unapologetically celebratory styling of.
Speaker 1 (25:40):
It, you know, in the most I mean, did you
even think that extraordinarily.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Tasteless where I mean the music is just you know,
imagine that it was cartoonishly terrible and and and you know,
a stomach churning, you know, heretical and and and nauseating music.
I mean, everything about it was tasteless, shameless, opportunistic and
looked pre planned, and it was gross it was really gross,
(26:07):
and you know it was. It was everything that a
memorial should not be, because it wasn't for him, it
was for everybody else. It was for the people on stage,
it was for the people left behind. It was for
the people perhaps who had an inkling it might be
coming or whatever. I don't know that. But one thing
we know for sure is when the authorities a lying
(26:28):
to us, because they're really bad at it. Now. So
when we Mandalai Bay, for instance, right, we still know
nothing about the guy right he shot dozens of people.
I mean, we have the Instagram accounts of people who
you know, shoplift from publics within twenty minutes. We know nothing, nothing,
well nothing about Mandalay Bay. And they didn't even do
(26:49):
a good job of giving us a face. And there
are things about Charlie Cook's death that do not add
up and that are not true. I know for a fact,
incontrovertible and unambiguous fact that up until a month after ago,
he still hadn't been buried. He may still not have
been buried. I don't know that because I haven't checked
(27:10):
in on it. But there are weird things going on
with that man's death. The manner in which he's being
remembered is not the person he was. The wife is
a gargoyle, she's a grotesque, she's a peculiarity. She's so awful.
She can only be a distraction, should only be there
on purpose because she's so dreadful. There's stuff up with it,
(27:30):
And thank god we have somebody who's not afraid to
say so. When everybody else who has some kind of
entanglement with either this administration or turning point rit large
because of its outside footprint on the movement or some
other you know, periphery or satellite person entity or potted money.
(27:57):
Thank god Candice is saying that not up, that doesn't
mat up, and that doesn't matter up what's really going on.
I'm just filled with the conviction that Candace is in
some way anointed because and I don't mean that in
the partisan sense, you know what, but I just I
just think the Holy Spirit just seems to like embarrassing
people who about Candace omens and it's it's like, it's, well.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
I think what you're saying is that that we live
in a society where the emperor has no clothes and.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
No no, I mean, I mean something more than that.
I'm saying, I'm saying, even when she shouldn't be right,
when she didn't even check if she was right, I'm
gonna take when when, When, When, when there's no earthly
reason how she could possibly be right, Suddenly she's right
about something in a way that I mean Christians is
don't believing coincidences. She just keeps embarrassing her critics in
(28:45):
a in a in a dazzling manner that you don't
really see outside of parable.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
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What do you make about the Trump movement? The Trump
movement which arrived at it seems a rather desperate moment
for the country, right when the left had almost gotten well,
(32:35):
it's had a pretty good stranglehold on the culture. But
when you combine that with a stranglehold on politics and
an ability to shut down the other side, you begin
to feel this sense of helplessness. I mean, all of
us did well.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I didn't feel helplessness. I felt responsibility. I felt at
t two, which is why I went and did something
about it and single handedly ended the hysteria about campus
rape culture or single handedly killed the wage gap mythology.
There's a lot of things I did that I was
(33:09):
soon to pay for. I didn't feel helpless at all.
I felt I felt nobless oblige about it because you know, well,
I can definitely do something about that because those people
are hopeless. It's not going to be that difficult, you know,
And it wasn't. But uh, you have to ask yourself
(33:32):
what it was all for. If Trump is going to
start new wars in the Middle least, if we're going
to be subjected to the the humiliation ritual of Erica Kirk.
If you know, as has been the case systematically for
ten years, that the Margat movement is going to excommunicate
(33:52):
all the people who made it in the first place
and who gave it its aviva and its intellectual ballast,
you know, And is it that it has done that?
I mean, I was a much more prominent figure in
twenty sixteen than I am now. There were people in
the campaign and said I was one of the seven
or eight people who put him in office. I think
that's silly, but they were saying it then immediately after
(34:15):
the election. As soon as he was in office, they
could not keep me further away. New White House interns
during Trump's first administration were asked on day one when
they got into the combat, are you a fan of
Alex Jones or mileyon opus? And if anybody put their
hand up, they were escorted off the premises. And just
(34:38):
look at what he's done to Marjorie Taylor Green. He's
done it over and over and over again. There are
no OG's left, There are no Margaret OG's left, only interlopers, avist's,
only fakes, frauds and ladders and flatterers, exactly, exactly, there's
nobody left who actually made the movement as I was
(34:59):
there when he came down the Golden elevator. None of
the rest of you were. I was there, and those
of us who were there at the beginning, and who
created it, who forged it, who gave it its personality.
We've been out of circulation for half a decade or more,
and now inevitably the administration is lapsing into a kind
(35:22):
of slightly more boisterous and clownish Clinton administration. I mean,
what are they really doing that different? Uh? You know,
I don't think Hillary. I don't think Hillary is like
a super woke person. There's no evidence that she's you know,
she'd be into trans pronounces. Sure, she would do it
(35:44):
for ellectoral advantage if it were a popular rest of it,
but she's not. She's not into all that stuff. What
is what is Trump doing right now that would be
so different? That is that that would be totally alien
to to a Clintonian presidency all that much, not really
especially economically. So you know, I I don't know what
it was all for. I think maybe we just bought
ourselves ten.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
Years well, one way of looking at it is people
would say, in the in the Reagan years, there was
this thing called Reaganism, which was a set of ideas
and so.
Speaker 2 (36:16):
All very good ones.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Well maybe, but nevertheless the point being that Reaganism, you know,
you didn't actually if somebody applied for a job in
the White House, you didn't have to go ask Reagan
because everybody knew what Reaganism was. In fact, when I
interviewed at the White House in my twenties, one of
(36:37):
the questions they asked were are you a Reaganite? Right?
And they asked, it is if it was the most
obvious thing in the world as to what that is,
how do.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
You imagine now that people would say yes with a
note of product.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Their was.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
The reason there's no easy answer about what trump Ism
or marga is is because other than retaining the elements,
beliefs and people that made it, instead it just simply
collapse around the person. And we always knew Donald Trump
was not a particularly pleasant person. We tolerated it, we
(37:14):
found it funny, and we liked it when it was
when it was aimed at our enemies. But now that
he's rolled over for pick your you choose your conspiracy
theory of entrenched interests as to who he's rolled over to.
Now he's rolled over and done the same things all
the others.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Do you know it could it be that he could
be that he from the beginning was not quite I
mean no New Wars.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Yes, he didn't think he was going to win. I
was there.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
He didn't think he was going to think.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
He didn't think for a second he was going to win.
He was stunned and probably devastated that he won.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
Devastated in what way?
Speaker 2 (37:53):
Because he wasn't planning for it. He didn't think he
was going to and he never thought he'd have to
contemplate the reality of it. I see. It was probably
the only person at the victory party in twenty sixteen
that actually thought he was gonna win. Well, there about
three of us, But when you walked in there, it
was a silence, ashen faced. It was. It was it
was the dead calm of defeat. Everybody had accepted the
(38:18):
extraordinary cathedral of fantastical lies that had been construos bit
by bit by bit by bit up to finally being
able to say ninety eight percent. You know, I didn't
believe it for a second, not for a moment, and
I was right and everybody else was wrong. But first
(38:40):
first administration pointless, and then he concedes an election he
won to Biden a week and then the third administration, well,
it started well, but very quickly it became apparent that
they were good at talking and not quite so good
at doing. And they were saying lots of things that
were making people go oh amazing, but most of the
(39:02):
reality it was being unpicked by the courts, or it
was just not happening. And now, of course he has
begun another Middle Eastern war, and I'm off the train.
I'm done, I'm over it, I'm out, I'm not I'm
not doing it anymore. Epstein was bad enough. Epstein you
have to understand. It was a Epstein was part of
(39:24):
the founding mythology of Margaret. It was one of the
central ideological planks. Not necessarily although for most people probably
the literal claim that we were ruled over by Elie
international pedophiles, although that does seem to be not too
far from the truth, but the the idea, the way
(39:44):
back and put it that Epstein is the key that
you know, the key that that that unlocks. There was
a there was a there's it was a conviction amongst
us all that understanding Epstein's place in the world, him
and people like him would reveal some layer of reality,
some underpinning architecture of the world, and we would understand
(40:07):
why it is that some people always seem to get
away with things, and why it is that other people
can't put a foot wrong, and why it is that,
you know, there seemed to be three four, five different
tiers of justice depending on where you come from, what
you believe, and how you behave and and and why
the world is weird. The world's off. It's a bit peculiar,
(40:29):
you know, and it has been since I guess since
maybe the eighties and nineties, right, that first flush of
political correctness in the nineties, right, that starts to steal
the oxygen out of the room from the self confident,
the self confidence of the of the of the you know,
the economic nineteen eighties kind of right, And then the
(40:51):
nineties was a very the nineties was a very culturally
self confident time. I mean, you know, for me, at
least at a britpop this spice girls, you know, people
were happy over here. It was it was we were
on the verge of racial harmony, fresh Prince of Abrella,
you know suddenly that it was it was, it was
(41:11):
whatever you know, uh, and then and then suddenly it
began to go into retrograde. I think also with the
O J Verdict too, when America realized when America's like, oh,
hang on a minute, you don't mind us watching your
shows and laughing along with you, but but you won't
convict and obviously guilty guy. Right, things start to go
wrong in the nineties, right, and and the world's been
(41:32):
the world's been peculiar since, and the world's been slepping.
I mean, the whole American public life is built on lies.
It's built on untruths, It's built on on deceptions, not
on polite fictions in the manner of previous rulers. Things
that we all agree to go along with because because
(41:53):
it's for the common good, or things that we tell
the lower orders because you know it would be it
would be so as stress for them to find out otherwise. No, no,
just just just just widespread, chaotic, unplanned, and ubiquitouslies.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
So where does that leave us, smiler, Because what it
seems to me, like.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Candace, Candice, Candace Candace. The all we have. All we
have is those few people with the courage, even if
they're ridiculous people, even if they're wrong, and I don't
happen to think she's either, even if they're ridiculous, even
if they're wrong, the people who won't go along with
it all. My day job is managing UH legal affairs
(42:46):
and and other matters for another such person, which is
Kanye West. And yes, and I think perhaps the ungovernerability
of Black America has produced a disproportionate number of Black
Americans who are not prepared to go along with it all.
They've always had a creditable skepticism about vaccines and things
(43:10):
like that. Turned out they were right every time about
all of it. And now I think we're seeing more.
I mean, you know, Yay Yay really just just burst
through the final taboo in Western culture and lived to
tell the tale. He's, you know, performing in La next month.
You know he's going to be all right. That kind
(43:30):
of courage is rare, and that kind of courage, for me,
is one of the only if we are living in
this epistemological crisis, people who are imperfectly but sincerely fumbling
their way through the darkness, but with more urgency and
(43:51):
more energy than the rest of us, and who are
managing to find things that the rest of us don't
and drawing attention to things that the rest of us
would not have noticed. They're the only hope we have
of making it out because one of them is going
to be right. They're all we have because everybody else
(44:14):
is lying.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
Is it difficult for you to retain even a mordicum
of patriotism under conditions like this? I mean, the United
States that you're describing is pretty close to an evil empire.
Speaker 2 (44:33):
Yes, it is, isn't it. I mean, I've got an
easy get out on British so I can I can
retreat into my Chintz, into my I can retreat into
my into my Princess Diana memorabilia and dream of a
dream of a world without Megan Marckle in it. You
see everything America touches does. Yeah. I used to say
(45:00):
and believe up until very recently, that this was the
greatest country in the history of human civilization. It probably was,
but it ain't now. Ah, It's still the best hope
that humanity has. But I don't know how we get
out of the darkness that we're in unless we do
(45:24):
something that America has never been comfortable doing, and that is,
you know, America, America as a as A as A
as A as A as a network of systems. America
awards not mediocrity exactly, but reliability are regularity, consistency. Right,
(45:45):
the biggest podcasts are by and large by the most
consistent performers, not the most interesting, not the funniest, not
the most brilliant or insightful, not the most literary, not
the most handsome. They're the people who, if you're turn
it on, you know exactly what you're gonna get.
Speaker 1 (46:04):
It's a reliable product.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Right, It's a reliable product. And and and America is
as has rewarded that in all ways person and and
and you know, and and and both both the human
and the industrial and every you know. But it's going
to have to start embracing the weirdos, the iconoclasts, the
peculiar people, because I think it when there's there's been
(46:33):
a there's been a glut of books over the last
few decades about the problem, and nobody's quite described it correctly,
whether you know the filter bubble or moral panics or whatever.
It is you know, when when smart people get it
wrong and all get it wrong in the same way
at the same time, and in fact seem more susceptible
(46:53):
to to nonsense than than than everybody else. Will We
now live in a country owned and operated entirely by
the people who think they're small, you know, by the
permanent by the permanent administrative class, right, the teachers, the doctors,
the lawyers, the people who work in Washington. And they're idiots,
(47:15):
They're stupid people who don't know anything, who could never
who could never make a reference to Shakespeare. You know,
they're still correct themselves because they'll they'll never encounter it.
They don't know anything, but they are quite quite confident
(47:36):
in their own brilliance and moral uh and more righteousness.
And it's the right, it's the left, it's everywhere, and
that's cultifying sort of, you know. And the dieing, eternally
grinning face of the of the administrative class. It is
killing the country. It's killing the country. And I think,
(47:58):
you know, I easy for me to say support the iconoclasts,
because where would I be otherwise? But I actually left
a continent that does quite a good job of accommodating
eccentrics true too, especially Britain of all places, to a
country that doesn't handle them so well and hasn't handled
(48:21):
me well, because this is the only place really that
matters in in you know, in that in that way,
and I'm just I'm very relieved to see the contours
of the battle lines as they're being drawn. And I
(48:43):
always winced when they put you on the wrong side,
because I know you're secretly one of us, but they
always put you with the with the Dave Rubens and
the and the Ben Shapiros and the and the turning points.
And I'm like, no, no of us.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Remember I'm one of the founders of Darkness Review.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
I'm aware of that. But but you know, I've learned,
I've learned, I've learned forgiveness, charity. No. Look, what makes
you unusual and distinctive and interesting is that ten twenty
thirty is later, you're still listening, which is not usual
(49:23):
for people of your generation. It's not usual either for
people of your accomplishments. Consider the manner in which Bill
Crystal has switched off, you know, for quite some time now,
he's no longer capable of contributing to the national politics
he's not listening anymore because he's he's perfectly happy to
(49:44):
be the last guy standing, you know, and and you're
not quite like that, which is why one of us.
And also also because everyone else on your side is
fucking boring, absolutely unbearable. I mean, do you really want
to spend the rest of your life with Dave Rubin?
Of course you don't, you know, you want to be
over here with with with Candice and Milo and even
(50:06):
Andrew Tate. You know, of course you do. Of course
you do, so does everybody, So does everybody. But the
way that the battle lines have been drawn, and you'll
occasionally see, you know, infographics going around of you know,
sort of the goodies and the bad eats on the
on the right these days, that gives me a little hope,
(50:26):
because there's really nobody above the there's nobody above the
socially acceptable line that anybody wants to listen to more
than fifteen minutes, And there's a sort of and none
of them have had anything, you need to say for
about twenty years, and and then and they don't have listeners,
and they don't have they don't have joy. They're not
(50:47):
happy people. They're not happy people. They're miserable people. They're
they're they're they're frantic and desperate. And you know, you
see it in that, you see in Turning Point, you
see in Erica. You see it, you know, starting to
you're starting to see the first signs of it in
this administration. People just clinging to sinecures, you know, because
(51:08):
that's what they have now. But there are people trying
to build things and do things and think of things
and come up with stuff and found things in the
very messy, imperfect, sometimes ridiculous, often wrong, dissident half, which
is where all the people of good and noble character
(51:30):
live because there's nowhere else for them now.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
I well, thank you very much. If you're sixty four
or older, here's an inflation report you don't hear about,
but should. This year, your Medicare premiums went up nearly
ten percent, your cost of living rays under three. Think
about that. You can't control premiums, but you can control
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Listen.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
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