July 7, 2026 • 34 mins
On Inside Geneva this week, we look at the race to be the next UN Secretary-General. Is it time for a change?
Susana Malcorra, candidate for UN Secretary-General 2016: 'I am deeply convinced this is a moment that requires a different type of leadership, and we have tested leadership nine leaders throughout 80 years that were all men.'
Geneva recently hosted three of the candidates – we hear from them. What are their plans?
Rebeca Grynspan, candidate for Secretary-General: 'My criteria of success as secretary general is that nobody will ask me again: Where is the UN?' If that question continues we will be irrelevant.'
What are the UN's challenges?
María Fernanda Espinosa, candidate for Secretary-General: 'I think the UN does not suffer from a crisis of purpose or principles enshrined in the Charter. It suffers from a crisis of delivery of impact, of accountability, and of inclusion.'
And what does it still have to offer?
Michelle Bachelet, candidate for Secretary-General: 'Multilateralism has a lot of problems, but if you didn't have a multilateral system, children in the refugee camps wouldn't have vaccines. People displacement wouldn't have support. So there's a lot of things that multilateralism has done and we need to improve.'
Join host Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva.
Get in touch!
- Email us at insidegeneva@swissinfo.ch
- Twitter: @ImogenFoulkes and @swissinfo_en
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
For more stories on the international Geneva please visit www.swissinfo.ch/
Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
Distribution: Sara Pasino
Marketing: Xin Zhang
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_02 (00:00):
SwissInfo podcasts.
SPEAKER_05 (00:09):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_04 (00:23):
The race to become the next United Nations
Secretary General has officiallymoved into the open, with member
states now invited to putforward candidates to lead the
world body from January 2027.
SPEAKER_03 (00:35):
I am deeply convinced that this is a moment
that requires a different typeof leadership.
And we have tested leadership,nine leaders throughout 80 years
that were all men.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Multilateralism has a lot of problems, but if we
didn't have a multilateralsystem, children in the refugee
camps wouldn't have vaccines.
People on displacement wouldn'thave support.
So there's a lot of things thatmultilateralism has done, and we
need to improve.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Trust is not something you declare, it's
something you earn.
And the way to earn the trustand the credibility is through
delivery.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
My criteria of success as SG is that nobody
will ask me again where is theUN?
If that question continues, wewill be irrelevant.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Of course, a woman, it's about time, isn't it?
After 80 years, of course.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
Sometimes silence cannot happen.
If civilians are being killed,the Secretary General has to
speak.
But also has to work anddialogue with all member states.
That doesn't mean dialoguedoesn't mean endorsement.
I mean, you can dialogue andwork with countries that you
have, or governments you havecriticized.
I have worked with governments Ihave publicly criticized.
(02:14):
But that doesn't meanendorsement, it means that you
have to engage.
SPEAKER_05 (02:17):
Rebecca Greenspan.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
We have to try and try again because we are the
ones, and the Secretary Generalis the person that can assume
the cost of failure, the cost ofrejection.
And we have to do that.
We have to be courageous.
SPEAKER_05 (02:34):
And Maria Fernanda Espinoza.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
I think the UN does not suffer from a crisis of
purpose or principles enshrinedin the Charter.
It suffers from a crisis ofdelivery, of impact, of
accountability, and ofinclusion.
SPEAKER_05 (02:51):
All three women came to Geneva recently for some
lively questioning about theirqualifications to become what's
often called the world's topdiplomat, or alternatively, the
world's most difficult job.
Now, before I start gettingcomplaints, other candidates for
UN Secretary General areavailable.
But the two men in the running,Maki Salle of Senegal and Rafael
(03:15):
Grossi of Argentina, didn'tattend the Geneva event, and
Guyana's Carolyn RodriguezBurkett wasn't there either
because she wasn't nominateduntil after it took place.
That doesn't mean we're ignoringthem.
Inside Geneva will continue toreport on the race to lead the
UN in the coming weeks andmonths.
(03:36):
But today we're going to focuson these three women to explore
some of the ambitions they havefor the United Nations.
First, though, we're going toget an insider's look at what
it's like to run for the UN'stop job with a woman who put her
hat in the ring back in 2016.
SPEAKER_03 (03:55):
My name is Susana Malcora.
I'm the former Foreign Ministerof Argentina and the former
chief of staff ofSecretary-General Ban Ki-moon.
SPEAKER_05 (04:02):
Right, so lots of uh insider experience of the United
Nations.
You've been taking a look at thecurrent campaign for a new
Secretary General.
What qualities does it need todo that job?
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
The first one is a moral compass.
And the moral compass should bethe Charter of the United
Nations.
We cannot give up on that.
In times where international lawis not respected, the Secretary
General needs to understand thatthat is centered to what the
role of the office is.
Clearly, is somebody who has tobe ready to take certain risks,
(04:40):
calculated risk at a certainmoment, at a certain point.
But risk is there given thecurrent circumstances.
He's somebody who should be ableto bridge among different
groups, different perspectives,different views of the world, of
the issues, and particularlyshould be ready to mediate in
(05:03):
very, very difficult conflictresolution questions.
And should also be somebody whomanages resources well, knows
how to manage resources becausein this day and age, resources
are a critical condition to beable to deliver.
So it's many things and is sortof a Wonder Woman, the one who
(05:27):
can bring all of these together.
So I always add somebody who isable to put a strong team that
can help bring to rear all thesequestions.
SPEAKER_05 (05:39):
That's a lot of qualities to find it in one
person.
But you, of course, used to ityourself to be UN Secretary
General.
Take us behind the scenes alittle bit.
What was that like?
SPEAKER_03 (05:53):
Well, the first thing I have to say is it's a
huge honor.
I mean, you feel energized.
My government decided to put myname for and you feel the whole
responsibility of this.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is you arehumble because the task is huge.
It was huge in 2016, it'sprobably much bigger now.
(06:16):
The other thing is that you tryto show yourself as you are,
which is challenging because youare you know that you are being
measured by every single wordthat you said.
So you have to calibrate beingcandid and honest, and at the
same time understanding thatsome of the ones who take the
(06:38):
decision are watching your wordsin every moment.
So it's the first challenge thatyou have preparing to be
Secretary General.
It is clearly not a popularcontest, so you need to
understand that.
This is a decision that is takenby a very few, I will say by
five, the permanent members ofthe Security Council.
(06:59):
So there is an open piece, whichwas I would say was nice and
fun, you know, where you had allthese debates, all these
hastings, all theseconversations, all these
dialogues.
But all of a sudden it becameopaque.
It went behind closed doors tothe Security Council, and
essentially you didn't know whathappened, and that was quite,
(07:21):
quite tense and quite uhdifficult because at a certain
point you learn where you stood.
And in my case, I was among theones who could become Secretary
General because I had enoughvotes, but I was vetoed by one
of the P5, and that made mycareer end there.
So do you know who vetoed you?
(07:43):
Uh no, I I I I have some idea,but I I cannot talk about that.
The only thing I can say that Iwas told it was not impersonal.
SPEAKER_05 (07:55):
You have been talking a lot recently about the
need to have a woman at the headof the United Nations.
I mean, it's 80 years of the UN,still no Secretary General.
We've seen women leaders in allsorts of countries, even in
conservative small C countries,and yet no woman at the top of
(08:17):
the United Nations.
I mean, how's that?
How has that been allowed tostay like that for 80 years?
SPEAKER_03 (08:23):
Well, the system has worked like that.
And you know what isinteresting?
The Charter of the UnitedNations says that men and women
are equal.
In the charter in 1945, that'squite an a progressive language.
It says that countries big andsmall are equal, and it says
(08:43):
women and men are equal.
But when it comes to thedecision of the Secretary
General, it is sort of a bigquestion: why should it be a
woman?
Well, first of all, because weare more than half the
population, and if thisrepresents the peoples of the
world, might as well representthe whole population, you know.
So that's not even allowed to bediscussed.
(09:04):
It's a matter of justice.
But beyond the justice, whichsome may argue is not good
enough, I am deeply convincedthat this is a moment that
requires a different type ofleadership.
And we have tested leadership,nine leaders throughout 80 years
that were all men.
Isn't it the moment to test afemale leadership, a women's
(09:27):
approach to problem solving thatmay have a different way to
address the questions we have athand?
To me, that's fundamental.
There is too much testosteronein the world these days.
Too much, too many things aredecided based on reactions that
are not logical, that don't havea rationale behind.
(09:50):
So having a woman who can acceptno I an answer, but then go back
again and try again, and ifthere is a second no, we'll go
back again and try again,because that's how women are.
That could make a difference.
I'm convinced that if there is awoman at the helm, even the news
(10:12):
will be different.
Journalists will be interestedto meet with that woman, it will
bring a light to the UN thatwill revitalize the UN.
It's a maybe it's a very minorthing to say, but I think it
will add energy just becauseit's unexpected.
Unfortunately, it's unexpected.
So for me, it's fundamental, andof course, I do believe that we
(10:34):
have women who can be up to thetask.
SPEAKER_05 (10:38):
Well, in Geneva, there was a chance to judge for
ourselves whether three keywomen were up to the task.
Michelle Bachelet, formerPresident of Chile and former UN
Human Rights Commissioner,Rebecca Greenspan, former Vice
President of Costa Rica andSecretary General of the UN
Conference on Trade andDevelopment, and Maria Fernanda
(11:01):
Espinoza, Argentina's formerForeign Minister and former
President of the UN GeneralAssembly.
They took the stage at Geneva'sGraduate Institute to be
questioned by a veryknowledgeable and engaged
audience.
With the world increasinglyunstable and conflicts
multiplying, the first keyquestion was about the role of
(11:22):
the UN Secretary General.
What can he or she do to fulfillthat crucial mandate of
preventing and resolvingconflict?
Maria Fernanda Espinoza had someideas.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
I think a Secretary General should use every tool
provided in the Charter to be,first of all, work very strongly
on prevention.
That's why I'm proposing aprevention and early action hub
has to work as a peacemaker, hasto work also to support others
(11:58):
when they take the lead onpeacemaking and has to be an
onus broker, an impartial agent.
But impartiality doesn't mean asilence or paralysis.
It really means to be able tobring all the parties together.
I did that when I was presidentof the UN General Assembly.
(12:20):
I brought 193 countries togetherto discuss very complex and
contentious issues.
It's the ability to convene, theability to really serve as a
true bridge builder, but it isalso to be active, to be
present, to be present, to beseen when a conflict is about to
(12:43):
erupt or when a conflict hasalready happened.
Early warning, early action areof utmost importance.
As we said, the UN is not theonly game in town, but the
Secretary General should be footon the ground, active, present,
engaged, and be trusted by allmember states.
SPEAKER_05 (13:03):
But Michelle Batchlett quickly spotted a
possible flaw in the emphasis onbridge building.
Given some UN member states arecurrently aggressively
destroying bridges, in that theyare attacking their neighbors or
undermining old alliances,Batchlet argued that the UN
Secretary General will sometimeshave to stand up and speak out.
SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
On one hand, if you have a person who wants to be a
facilitator, but that has noindependent judgment, that's not
going to be a facilitator.
That's going to be a moderator.
And the UN doesn't need amoderator as a Secretary
General.
If you have, on the other hand,somebody who is independent but
has no capability to build trustacross the different sides of
(13:47):
the problem, you will not be apeacemaker.
You will be a commentator ofnews.
So what we need is somebody whounderstands the moment and some
and we have the tools.
It's not true that we don't havethe tools.
The Schroder mentions many ofthem.
Of course, the good offices, ofcourse, early warning, you need
to have early warning signsbecause you have to read what's
(14:10):
happening in the country.
But many times the second thingneeds to do is to facilitate the
relation between countries.
For example, to find a room orspace where people can come
together and dialogue, or toopen channels when people are
refusing to speak to each other.
Sometimes silence cannot happen.
(14:31):
You cannot be a complex ofsilence.
If civilians are being killed,the Secretary General has to
speak.
But also has to work anddialogue with all member states.
That doesn't mean dialogue,doesn't mean endorsement.
I mean, you can dialogue andwork with countries that you
have, or governments you havecriticized.
I have worked with governments Ihave publicly criticized.
But that doesn't meanendorsement, it means that you
(14:52):
have to engage to try to reducethe results needed.
So I think the second area hasto be both.
And the thing is to identifywhat can work because sometimes
preventive diplomacy is veryimportant.
Sometimes you have to beactively on the field,
mediating, but anticipating.
I think the US has difficultiesto anticipate and to prevent
(15:15):
crisis from happening.
SPEAKER_05 (15:16):
In her answer, Rebecca Greenspan chose not to
disagree with either of herfellow candidates.
Instead, she pointed to aprevious UN Secretary General as
an example she aspired to.
SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
If that question continues, we will be
irrelevant.
So the important thing is to bethere.
We have become too risk averse.
We cannot do that.
Our only risk and our onlyfailure is not to try.
And in many cases, I have tosay, we have stopped trying.
(16:18):
And we have to try and try againbecause we are the ones, and the
Secretary General is the personthat can assume the cost of
failure, the cost of rejection.
And we have to do that.
We have to be courageous to beable to do that.
Try again and try again.
We have to navigate many no'suntil we get a yes.
(16:42):
That's what happened when Iintervened in the Black Sea
initiative.
Yes?
Nobody believed that we could dothat.
We did that within the frameworkof a war, but we understood that
we can agree on something thatcan be important for millions of
people in the world, even if wedon't agree on everything.
(17:03):
And the other thing is toengage.
We have said that.
I believe in early warning, butto tell you the truth, early
warning is not an informationsystem.
We many times think about earlywarning as a lot of information
that we see indicators.
No, early warning is to listento the ground, is to listen to
(17:24):
the people that is in all thecountries of the world.
And sometimes the headquartersis a wall between the ground and
what the decisions that have tobe taken.
For that to be effective, youhave to have the best team.
SPEAKER_05 (17:42):
We have to change the office of the Secretary
General and have the best teamwith the Secretary General Four
months, in fact, perhapsthroughout the current
Secretary-General AntonioGuterres's second term, there
(18:03):
has been speculation that thistime, finally, the next head of
the UN really should be a woman.
After all, the United Nations isover 80 years old and still
hasn't had a woman to lead it.
So what did our three candidatesthink about that?
Maria Fernanda Espinoza wentfirst.
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Of course, a woman, it's about time, isn't it?
After 80 years, of course.
But what I say is We need a 360leader with a lot of energy.
What does it mean?
Is that you master the threepillars of the UN.
That uh you've been uh Ministerof Defense and it's not that I
(18:46):
want to speak about my own bio,but uh you really master.
No, you need to master the threepillars, understand how they
come together, and have theenergy to act and transform.
Prevention and early warninghave to be more than a slogan.
It has to be an operatingprinciple.
(19:07):
It has to be the tool that thesecretary general has to inform
and to advise member states sothey can act.
To inform yourself so you canact.
So basically, a 360 SecretaryGeneral, and of course, a woman,
the best woman, not any woman.
SPEAKER_05 (19:25):
Michelle Batchlet agreed.
Yes, a woman, and yes, this mustnot be a gender equality
box-ticking exercise.
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Well, I think that gender, yes, but not any woman,
if I have to say.
One of the reasons that I'vebeen in many different posts is
because I'm not trying tomaintain myself at that post.
I try to do what is needed to bedone.
So I'm not afraid of riskingthat what I try doesn't work.
(19:55):
I'm not afraid of speaking upwhen it's needed, I'm not afraid
to take a plane and get into theplace where I need to be, where
I have to talk to and produce adialogue.
So I think women that are thereto do these kind of things,
well, not too many candidates,not many there, is because we
really believe that we want toput all our energy into produce
(20:16):
the results needed for theworld.
SPEAKER_05 (20:18):
Rebecca Greenspan kept her answer short and to the
point.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
I'm running to be Secretary General because I
think I am the best person forthe job.
SPEAKER_05 (20:49):
Let's not forget the UN has been left out of key
diplomacy recently over theMiddle East and over the
conflict in Ukraine.
Here in Geneva, we might allhave preferred that experienced
UN diplomats, rather thanpolitically appointed amateurs,
had been involved.
But the fact remains thatmillions of people, particularly
(21:11):
the younger generation, don'tnecessarily see the UN as
important.
So how can the next SecretaryGeneral change that?
Rebecca Greenspan.
SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
I think that is true, that the young people feel
very worried about their future.
And I think that there is a lotof skepticism, as you said, with
respect to the UN and themultilateral system.
I will nonetheless call on younot to allow skepticism to go to
(21:47):
fatalism.
But fatalism is a surrender.
So I call on you not to allowanybody to tell you or To tell
us that we have no choices andthat we cannot do better.
My second point is that you willrebuild trust when you will
(22:10):
deliver, as you said, in yourproblems, when we will address
conflicts that are recruitingyou and displacing you, when we
will care about the planet thatwe live in and you will inherit,
when we will face the debtproblem that doesn't allow your
(22:31):
country to invest in theirpeople, in education and health,
when we will give you a seat indefining the technologies and
what we will do for the future.
So delivering on the challenges.
SPEAKER_05 (22:48):
Maria Fernanda Espinoza recognized that
challenge too.
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Trust is not something you declare, it's
something you earn.
And the way to earn the trustand the credibility is through
delivery.
And I think the UN does notsuffer from a crisis of purpose
or principles enshrined in thecharter.
It suffers from a crisis ofdelivery, of impact, of
(23:14):
accountability, and ofinclusion.
And of course, when we see ayoung person asking that
question, we have come up withthe Declaration on Future
Generations, a new office foryoung people, but it is not only
about listening to young people.
It's about having them being thearchitects of their own future,
(23:38):
not the victims, but the agentsof transformation.
In the multilateral space, whatthat means is decisions that are
taken in the multilateral spacehave to listen to the younger
generations, have them bringtheir ideas and innovation and
transform the system.
As Secretary General, this isthe transformation I want to
(24:00):
lead, an intergenerationaltransformation to regain the
trust, the credibility, and thepurpose of the UN through
delivery.
It is about impact, it is abouttouching and transforming
people's lives.
That's exactly what the UN wascalled to do.
The first phrase of the charter,which is my favorite one, you
(24:24):
know, is we the peoples.
And of course, with the peoplesis the 1.5 billion young people
around there.
In my own team now as acandidate, most of my team are
under 30.
And it's not to check the box.
It is about having them givingthe intelligence, the advice,
and being part of the proposalsthat I am bringing to the UN, a
(24:47):
UN that has to be credible andtrusted, has to be earned.
SPEAKER_05 (24:51):
So a strong pitch to young people there.
They, however, don't have muchsay on who gets to be the next
Secretary General.
The final approval has to comefrom the UN Security Council, of
which more in a moment.
First, how does MichelleBatchlet think the UN can regain
relevance, especially amongyoung people?
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
I remember once working at UN AIDS and UN women,
and a girl says to me, it's notenough that I'll be sitting in
the table.
I want to discuss the shape ofthe table.
So young people have ideas inmany of the areas that we see as
huge challenges for and need amultilateral answer, like
(25:34):
climate change and others, andAI, etc., young people can have
play a direct role because theyhave they're creative, they have
innovative perspective, etcetera.
So I do believe that what theSecretary General has to do, a
future secretary general, is toensure that the UN not only
(25:54):
communicates better, but reallyis results-oriented because it's
delivering what people willrealize.
Is this institution doing whatthey have to do?
Is it having those the answerthat we need?
And is it not only listening tous, but because you can listen
and not do anything about itafterwards?
Is there taking intoconsideration our demands, our
(26:15):
needs?
But I have to say also thatmultilateralism has a lot of
problems.
But if we didn't have amultilateral system, children in
the refugee camps wouldn't havevaccines.
People on displacement wouldn'thave support.
So there's a lot of things thatmultilateralism had done, and we
need to improve.
SPEAKER_05 (26:40):
So three strong women candidates there
campaigning to lead the UnitedNations.
And strong conviction, Isuspect, from millions of
people, that it really is timefor a woman to become Secretary
General.
But given the challenges the UNfaces and the doubt over its
relevance, I had one lastquestion for Susanna Malcora.
(27:01):
We all know that there are hugechallenges facing the United
Nations right now (27:07):
financial, geopolitical.
Isn't it a bit hard to say nowwe need a woman?
Just as the UN is becoming quiteirrelevant and nobody's paying
attention.
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Many times I have been asked that question.
And in fact, I have spoken withwomen who are very active in
this idea and that now wonderwhether it's the right time.
My answer to that, it is neverthe right time.
For one reason or another, it'snever right time.
That's why I say and I insist onthis, is not only a woman as a
(27:51):
Secretary General, it's a womanthat can build a strong enough
team around her to help herhandle all these many issues.
And women tend to be good teammakers.
Women tend to accept the notionof people thinking differently
and accepting suggestions.
(28:11):
That's what it needed.
We cannot have monolithic mindsthat know it all.
We need to have people who areaware that the issues are so
many and so difficult thatrequire plurality of approaches
to solve them.
SPEAKER_05 (28:30):
Are you confident then that the UN can survive and
stay relevant?
And that it has a better chanceof doing both with the woman.
SPEAKER_03 (28:42):
I am convinced that the UN is badly needed.
And if we were to say we throwit out of the window, but we
create something new, I promiseyou, whatever we create, it will
not be very different from whatwe have.
That's the reality, you know.
I mean, and some of the thingsthe UN suffers from are the
(29:02):
result of its own achievements.
You know, now we have 193 memberstates.
We started with somewhere around50.
It almost quadrupled.
Why is that?
Because the whole post-colonialperiod was part of the UN doing,
you know, bringing countries tothe fore, providing
opportunities for countries todeclare independence.
(29:25):
That's a huge success.
But now you have to agree among193 in the General Assembly.
So whatever you do, if you wereto create a new institution,
will not differ dramatically,organically from what we have.
What we need is an organizationthat functions, that has the
(29:47):
energy to do what it has to do,that is ready to take the risk
that it has to take.
And has is ready also torecognize that there are certain
things that should not be doneby the UN.
And there are otherinstitutions, you know, like the
African Union, like the regionalorganizations.
So set the frame for the bigthings and then divide on who
(30:10):
does what, when, and where.
Those things should make the UNrelevant again.
The UN goes beyond the SecurityCouncil and the blockage of the
Security Council among the B5.
So there is a need for the UN.
There is a need for the UN to berelevant.
Being relevant sometimes isbeing there when needed, even if
(30:31):
you don't have the tools tosolve all the problems.
Put the light on the issues,raise your voice at the right
place, not only throughstatements in New York, but be
there for the people.
I am convinced that this isabsolutely needed.
That's what I work for.
I know that the UN needs toreinvent itself in many ways.
(30:54):
And I am persuaded that a newSecretary General, together with
many others, is not magic, it'snot a miracle.
It requires support.
But creating an environment, aconducive environment of
dialogue among member states ispart of the role of the
Secretary General, and thatshould help get us where we
(31:15):
need.
SPEAKER_05 (31:16):
Well, the contest to lead the United Nations is
continuing.
All candidates have had hearingsat the UN General Assembly.
In the next few weeks, the UNSecurity Council will begin
closed door discussions.
They'll take the views of allmember states and try to
recommend a single candidate.
That's when the dreaded veto cancome into play.
(31:38):
Remember Susanna Malcora tellingme at the start of this podcast
that she was vetoed but didn'twant to say by whom?
Well, the answer to that iscomplicated.
She is from Argentina, and it'sbelieved the UK was unhappy with
her position over the FalklandIslands.
But it's also possible Malcorasimply did not have enough
(32:01):
support from member states.
This time around, the UnitedStates has said openly it will
veto Michel Bachelet because ofher stance on women's rights and
reproductive rights.
This despite the United Nationsalready having multiple
agreements upholding women'srights in its original charter,
(32:21):
in the Beijing Declaration onWomen, in the Sustainable
Development Goals.
So before we go, here's whatMichelle Batchelett had to say
about that when I caught up withher after the debate.
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
I do believe that women's rights is something
essential.
And if I'm Secretary General, Iwill be continuing pushing for
human rights, for women'srights, including sexual and
reproductive rights, becausethat's not something that a
Secretary General will impose.
It's the Secretary General hasto continue the agreements that
the UN has already developed.
(32:54):
I shouldn't say this, but I'mgoing to say it because I truly
believe.
If somebody beatles me because Ibelieve in democracy, because I
believe in multilateralism,because I believe in women's
rights, because I believe inhuman rights, I mean I would be
honored.
SPEAKER_05 (33:15):
And those feisty words from a woman who I suspect
recognizes all too well thechallenges this contest poses
bring us to the end of thisedition of Inside Geneva.
We hope you enjoyed today'sprogramme.
Next time we'll be starting oursummer profile series, where
we'll take a look at modernwarfare, cyber attacks, and talk
(33:38):
to a man who's working to bringthe protection of the Red Cross
emblem into the digital age.
That's out on July 21st.
Do join us then.
(34:00):
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
I'm Imogen folks.
(34:21):
Thanks again for listening tothe
SwissInfo podcasts.
SPEAKER_05 (00:09):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_04 (00:23):
The race to become the next United Nations
Secretary General has officiallymoved into the open, with member
states now invited to putforward candidates to lead the
world body from January 2027.
SPEAKER_03 (00:35):
I am deeply convinced that this is a moment
that requires a different typeof leadership.
And we have tested leadership,nine leaders throughout 80 years
that were all men.
SPEAKER_00 (00:46):
Multilateralism has a lot of problems, but if we
didn't have a multilateralsystem, children in the refugee
camps wouldn't have vaccines.
People on displacement wouldn'thave support.
So there's a lot of things thatmultilateralism has done, and we
need to improve.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03):
Trust is not something you declare, it's
something you earn.
And the way to earn the trustand the credibility is through
delivery.
SPEAKER_02 (01:12):
My criteria of success as SG is that nobody
will ask me again where is theUN?
If that question continues, wewill be irrelevant.
SPEAKER_01 (01:26):
Of course, a woman, it's about time, isn't it?
After 80 years, of course.
SPEAKER_00 (01:54):
Sometimes silence cannot happen.
If civilians are being killed,the Secretary General has to
speak.
But also has to work anddialogue with all member states.
That doesn't mean dialoguedoesn't mean endorsement.
I mean, you can dialogue andwork with countries that you
have, or governments you havecriticized.
I have worked with governments Ihave publicly criticized.
(02:14):
But that doesn't meanendorsement, it means that you
have to engage.
SPEAKER_05 (02:17):
Rebecca Greenspan.
SPEAKER_02 (02:18):
We have to try and try again because we are the
ones, and the Secretary Generalis the person that can assume
the cost of failure, the cost ofrejection.
And we have to do that.
We have to be courageous.
SPEAKER_05 (02:34):
And Maria Fernanda Espinoza.
SPEAKER_01 (02:36):
I think the UN does not suffer from a crisis of
purpose or principles enshrinedin the Charter.
It suffers from a crisis ofdelivery, of impact, of
accountability, and ofinclusion.
SPEAKER_05 (02:51):
All three women came to Geneva recently for some
lively questioning about theirqualifications to become what's
often called the world's topdiplomat, or alternatively, the
world's most difficult job.
Now, before I start gettingcomplaints, other candidates for
UN Secretary General areavailable.
But the two men in the running,Maki Salle of Senegal and Rafael
(03:15):
Grossi of Argentina, didn'tattend the Geneva event, and
Guyana's Carolyn RodriguezBurkett wasn't there either
because she wasn't nominateduntil after it took place.
That doesn't mean we're ignoringthem.
Inside Geneva will continue toreport on the race to lead the
UN in the coming weeks andmonths.
(03:36):
But today we're going to focuson these three women to explore
some of the ambitions they havefor the United Nations.
First, though, we're going toget an insider's look at what
it's like to run for the UN'stop job with a woman who put her
hat in the ring back in 2016.
SPEAKER_03 (03:55):
My name is Susana Malcora.
I'm the former Foreign Ministerof Argentina and the former
chief of staff ofSecretary-General Ban Ki-moon.
SPEAKER_05 (04:02):
Right, so lots of uh insider experience of the United
Nations.
You've been taking a look at thecurrent campaign for a new
Secretary General.
What qualities does it need todo that job?
SPEAKER_03 (04:15):
The first one is a moral compass.
And the moral compass should bethe Charter of the United
Nations.
We cannot give up on that.
In times where international lawis not respected, the Secretary
General needs to understand thatthat is centered to what the
role of the office is.
Clearly, is somebody who has tobe ready to take certain risks,
(04:40):
calculated risk at a certainmoment, at a certain point.
But risk is there given thecurrent circumstances.
He's somebody who should be ableto bridge among different
groups, different perspectives,different views of the world, of
the issues, and particularlyshould be ready to mediate in
(05:03):
very, very difficult conflictresolution questions.
And should also be somebody whomanages resources well, knows
how to manage resources becausein this day and age, resources
are a critical condition to beable to deliver.
So it's many things and is sortof a Wonder Woman, the one who
(05:27):
can bring all of these together.
So I always add somebody who isable to put a strong team that
can help bring to rear all thesequestions.
SPEAKER_05 (05:39):
That's a lot of qualities to find it in one
person.
But you, of course, used to ityourself to be UN Secretary
General.
Take us behind the scenes alittle bit.
What was that like?
SPEAKER_03 (05:53):
Well, the first thing I have to say is it's a
huge honor.
I mean, you feel energized.
My government decided to put myname for and you feel the whole
responsibility of this.
So that's the first thing.
The second thing is you arehumble because the task is huge.
It was huge in 2016, it'sprobably much bigger now.
(06:16):
The other thing is that you tryto show yourself as you are,
which is challenging because youare you know that you are being
measured by every single wordthat you said.
So you have to calibrate beingcandid and honest, and at the
same time understanding thatsome of the ones who take the
(06:38):
decision are watching your wordsin every moment.
So it's the first challenge thatyou have preparing to be
Secretary General.
It is clearly not a popularcontest, so you need to
understand that.
This is a decision that is takenby a very few, I will say by
five, the permanent members ofthe Security Council.
(06:59):
So there is an open piece, whichwas I would say was nice and
fun, you know, where you had allthese debates, all these
hastings, all theseconversations, all these
dialogues.
But all of a sudden it becameopaque.
It went behind closed doors tothe Security Council, and
essentially you didn't know whathappened, and that was quite,
(07:21):
quite tense and quite uhdifficult because at a certain
point you learn where you stood.
And in my case, I was among theones who could become Secretary
General because I had enoughvotes, but I was vetoed by one
of the P5, and that made mycareer end there.
So do you know who vetoed you?
(07:43):
Uh no, I I I I have some idea,but I I cannot talk about that.
The only thing I can say that Iwas told it was not impersonal.
SPEAKER_05 (07:55):
You have been talking a lot recently about the
need to have a woman at the headof the United Nations.
I mean, it's 80 years of the UN,still no Secretary General.
We've seen women leaders in allsorts of countries, even in
conservative small C countries,and yet no woman at the top of
(08:17):
the United Nations.
I mean, how's that?
How has that been allowed tostay like that for 80 years?
SPEAKER_03 (08:23):
Well, the system has worked like that.
And you know what isinteresting?
The Charter of the UnitedNations says that men and women
are equal.
In the charter in 1945, that'squite an a progressive language.
It says that countries big andsmall are equal, and it says
(08:43):
women and men are equal.
But when it comes to thedecision of the Secretary
General, it is sort of a bigquestion: why should it be a
woman?
Well, first of all, because weare more than half the
population, and if thisrepresents the peoples of the
world, might as well representthe whole population, you know.
So that's not even allowed to bediscussed.
(09:04):
It's a matter of justice.
But beyond the justice, whichsome may argue is not good
enough, I am deeply convincedthat this is a moment that
requires a different type ofleadership.
And we have tested leadership,nine leaders throughout 80 years
that were all men.
Isn't it the moment to test afemale leadership, a women's
(09:27):
approach to problem solving thatmay have a different way to
address the questions we have athand?
To me, that's fundamental.
There is too much testosteronein the world these days.
Too much, too many things aredecided based on reactions that
are not logical, that don't havea rationale behind.
(09:50):
So having a woman who can acceptno I an answer, but then go back
again and try again, and ifthere is a second no, we'll go
back again and try again,because that's how women are.
That could make a difference.
I'm convinced that if there is awoman at the helm, even the news
(10:12):
will be different.
Journalists will be interestedto meet with that woman, it will
bring a light to the UN thatwill revitalize the UN.
It's a maybe it's a very minorthing to say, but I think it
will add energy just becauseit's unexpected.
Unfortunately, it's unexpected.
So for me, it's fundamental, andof course, I do believe that we
(10:34):
have women who can be up to thetask.
SPEAKER_05 (10:38):
Well, in Geneva, there was a chance to judge for
ourselves whether three keywomen were up to the task.
Michelle Bachelet, formerPresident of Chile and former UN
Human Rights Commissioner,Rebecca Greenspan, former Vice
President of Costa Rica andSecretary General of the UN
Conference on Trade andDevelopment, and Maria Fernanda
(11:01):
Espinoza, Argentina's formerForeign Minister and former
President of the UN GeneralAssembly.
They took the stage at Geneva'sGraduate Institute to be
questioned by a veryknowledgeable and engaged
audience.
With the world increasinglyunstable and conflicts
multiplying, the first keyquestion was about the role of
(11:22):
the UN Secretary General.
What can he or she do to fulfillthat crucial mandate of
preventing and resolvingconflict?
Maria Fernanda Espinoza had someideas.
SPEAKER_01 (11:35):
I think a Secretary General should use every tool
provided in the Charter to be,first of all, work very strongly
on prevention.
That's why I'm proposing aprevention and early action hub
has to work as a peacemaker, hasto work also to support others
(11:58):
when they take the lead onpeacemaking and has to be an
onus broker, an impartial agent.
But impartiality doesn't mean asilence or paralysis.
It really means to be able tobring all the parties together.
I did that when I was presidentof the UN General Assembly.
(12:20):
I brought 193 countries togetherto discuss very complex and
contentious issues.
It's the ability to convene, theability to really serve as a
true bridge builder, but it isalso to be active, to be
present, to be present, to beseen when a conflict is about to
(12:43):
erupt or when a conflict hasalready happened.
Early warning, early action areof utmost importance.
As we said, the UN is not theonly game in town, but the
Secretary General should be footon the ground, active, present,
engaged, and be trusted by allmember states.
SPEAKER_05 (13:03):
But Michelle Batchlett quickly spotted a
possible flaw in the emphasis onbridge building.
Given some UN member states arecurrently aggressively
destroying bridges, in that theyare attacking their neighbors or
undermining old alliances,Batchlet argued that the UN
Secretary General will sometimeshave to stand up and speak out.
SPEAKER_00 (13:26):
On one hand, if you have a person who wants to be a
facilitator, but that has noindependent judgment, that's not
going to be a facilitator.
That's going to be a moderator.
And the UN doesn't need amoderator as a Secretary
General.
If you have, on the other hand,somebody who is independent but
has no capability to build trustacross the different sides of
(13:47):
the problem, you will not be apeacemaker.
You will be a commentator ofnews.
So what we need is somebody whounderstands the moment and some
and we have the tools.
It's not true that we don't havethe tools.
The Schroder mentions many ofthem.
Of course, the good offices, ofcourse, early warning, you need
to have early warning signsbecause you have to read what's
(14:10):
happening in the country.
But many times the second thingneeds to do is to facilitate the
relation between countries.
For example, to find a room orspace where people can come
together and dialogue, or toopen channels when people are
refusing to speak to each other.
Sometimes silence cannot happen.
(14:31):
You cannot be a complex ofsilence.
If civilians are being killed,the Secretary General has to
speak.
But also has to work anddialogue with all member states.
That doesn't mean dialogue,doesn't mean endorsement.
I mean, you can dialogue andwork with countries that you
have, or governments you havecriticized.
I have worked with governments Ihave publicly criticized.
But that doesn't meanendorsement, it means that you
(14:52):
have to engage to try to reducethe results needed.
So I think the second area hasto be both.
And the thing is to identifywhat can work because sometimes
preventive diplomacy is veryimportant.
Sometimes you have to beactively on the field,
mediating, but anticipating.
I think the US has difficultiesto anticipate and to prevent
(15:15):
crisis from happening.
SPEAKER_05 (15:16):
In her answer, Rebecca Greenspan chose not to
disagree with either of herfellow candidates.
Instead, she pointed to aprevious UN Secretary General as
an example she aspired to.
SPEAKER_02 (15:55):
If that question continues, we will be
irrelevant.
So the important thing is to bethere.
We have become too risk averse.
We cannot do that.
Our only risk and our onlyfailure is not to try.
And in many cases, I have tosay, we have stopped trying.
(16:18):
And we have to try and try againbecause we are the ones, and the
Secretary General is the personthat can assume the cost of
failure, the cost of rejection.
And we have to do that.
We have to be courageous to beable to do that.
Try again and try again.
We have to navigate many no'suntil we get a yes.
(16:42):
That's what happened when Iintervened in the Black Sea
initiative.
Yes?
Nobody believed that we could dothat.
We did that within the frameworkof a war, but we understood that
we can agree on something thatcan be important for millions of
people in the world, even if wedon't agree on everything.
(17:03):
And the other thing is toengage.
We have said that.
I believe in early warning, butto tell you the truth, early
warning is not an informationsystem.
We many times think about earlywarning as a lot of information
that we see indicators.
No, early warning is to listento the ground, is to listen to
(17:24):
the people that is in all thecountries of the world.
And sometimes the headquartersis a wall between the ground and
what the decisions that have tobe taken.
For that to be effective, youhave to have the best team.
SPEAKER_05 (17:42):
We have to change the office of the Secretary
General and have the best teamwith the Secretary General Four
months, in fact, perhapsthroughout the current
Secretary-General AntonioGuterres's second term, there
(18:03):
has been speculation that thistime, finally, the next head of
the UN really should be a woman.
After all, the United Nations isover 80 years old and still
hasn't had a woman to lead it.
So what did our three candidatesthink about that?
Maria Fernanda Espinoza wentfirst.
SPEAKER_01 (18:23):
Of course, a woman, it's about time, isn't it?
After 80 years, of course.
But what I say is We need a 360leader with a lot of energy.
What does it mean?
Is that you master the threepillars of the UN.
That uh you've been uh Ministerof Defense and it's not that I
(18:46):
want to speak about my own bio,but uh you really master.
No, you need to master the threepillars, understand how they
come together, and have theenergy to act and transform.
Prevention and early warninghave to be more than a slogan.
It has to be an operatingprinciple.
(19:07):
It has to be the tool that thesecretary general has to inform
and to advise member states sothey can act.
To inform yourself so you canact.
So basically, a 360 SecretaryGeneral, and of course, a woman,
the best woman, not any woman.
SPEAKER_05 (19:25):
Michelle Batchlet agreed.
Yes, a woman, and yes, this mustnot be a gender equality
box-ticking exercise.
SPEAKER_00 (19:33):
Well, I think that gender, yes, but not any woman,
if I have to say.
One of the reasons that I'vebeen in many different posts is
because I'm not trying tomaintain myself at that post.
I try to do what is needed to bedone.
So I'm not afraid of riskingthat what I try doesn't work.
(19:55):
I'm not afraid of speaking upwhen it's needed, I'm not afraid
to take a plane and get into theplace where I need to be, where
I have to talk to and produce adialogue.
So I think women that are thereto do these kind of things,
well, not too many candidates,not many there, is because we
really believe that we want toput all our energy into produce
(20:16):
the results needed for theworld.
SPEAKER_05 (20:18):
Rebecca Greenspan kept her answer short and to the
point.
SPEAKER_02 (20:22):
I'm running to be Secretary General because I
think I am the best person forthe job.
SPEAKER_05 (20:49):
Let's not forget the UN has been left out of key
diplomacy recently over theMiddle East and over the
conflict in Ukraine.
Here in Geneva, we might allhave preferred that experienced
UN diplomats, rather thanpolitically appointed amateurs,
had been involved.
But the fact remains thatmillions of people, particularly
(21:11):
the younger generation, don'tnecessarily see the UN as
important.
So how can the next SecretaryGeneral change that?
Rebecca Greenspan.
SPEAKER_02 (21:21):
I think that is true, that the young people feel
very worried about their future.
And I think that there is a lotof skepticism, as you said, with
respect to the UN and themultilateral system.
I will nonetheless call on younot to allow skepticism to go to
(21:47):
fatalism.
But fatalism is a surrender.
So I call on you not to allowanybody to tell you or To tell
us that we have no choices andthat we cannot do better.
My second point is that you willrebuild trust when you will
(22:10):
deliver, as you said, in yourproblems, when we will address
conflicts that are recruitingyou and displacing you, when we
will care about the planet thatwe live in and you will inherit,
when we will face the debtproblem that doesn't allow your
(22:31):
country to invest in theirpeople, in education and health,
when we will give you a seat indefining the technologies and
what we will do for the future.
So delivering on the challenges.
SPEAKER_05 (22:48):
Maria Fernanda Espinoza recognized that
challenge too.
SPEAKER_01 (22:52):
Trust is not something you declare, it's
something you earn.
And the way to earn the trustand the credibility is through
delivery.
And I think the UN does notsuffer from a crisis of purpose
or principles enshrined in thecharter.
It suffers from a crisis ofdelivery, of impact, of
(23:14):
accountability, and ofinclusion.
And of course, when we see ayoung person asking that
question, we have come up withthe Declaration on Future
Generations, a new office foryoung people, but it is not only
about listening to young people.
It's about having them being thearchitects of their own future,
(23:38):
not the victims, but the agentsof transformation.
In the multilateral space, whatthat means is decisions that are
taken in the multilateral spacehave to listen to the younger
generations, have them bringtheir ideas and innovation and
transform the system.
As Secretary General, this isthe transformation I want to
(24:00):
lead, an intergenerationaltransformation to regain the
trust, the credibility, and thepurpose of the UN through
delivery.
It is about impact, it is abouttouching and transforming
people's lives.
That's exactly what the UN wascalled to do.
The first phrase of the charter,which is my favorite one, you
(24:24):
know, is we the peoples.
And of course, with the peoplesis the 1.5 billion young people
around there.
In my own team now as acandidate, most of my team are
under 30.
And it's not to check the box.
It is about having them givingthe intelligence, the advice,
and being part of the proposalsthat I am bringing to the UN, a
(24:47):
UN that has to be credible andtrusted, has to be earned.
SPEAKER_05 (24:51):
So a strong pitch to young people there.
They, however, don't have muchsay on who gets to be the next
Secretary General.
The final approval has to comefrom the UN Security Council, of
which more in a moment.
First, how does MichelleBatchlet think the UN can regain
relevance, especially amongyoung people?
SPEAKER_00 (25:12):
I remember once working at UN AIDS and UN women,
and a girl says to me, it's notenough that I'll be sitting in
the table.
I want to discuss the shape ofthe table.
So young people have ideas inmany of the areas that we see as
huge challenges for and need amultilateral answer, like
(25:34):
climate change and others, andAI, etc., young people can have
play a direct role because theyhave they're creative, they have
innovative perspective, etcetera.
So I do believe that what theSecretary General has to do, a
future secretary general, is toensure that the UN not only
(25:54):
communicates better, but reallyis results-oriented because it's
delivering what people willrealize.
Is this institution doing whatthey have to do?
Is it having those the answerthat we need?
And is it not only listening tous, but because you can listen
and not do anything about itafterwards?
Is there taking intoconsideration our demands, our
(26:15):
needs?
But I have to say also thatmultilateralism has a lot of
problems.
But if we didn't have amultilateral system, children in
the refugee camps wouldn't havevaccines.
People on displacement wouldn'thave support.
So there's a lot of things thatmultilateralism had done, and we
need to improve.
SPEAKER_05 (26:40):
So three strong women candidates there
campaigning to lead the UnitedNations.
And strong conviction, Isuspect, from millions of
people, that it really is timefor a woman to become Secretary
General.
But given the challenges the UNfaces and the doubt over its
relevance, I had one lastquestion for Susanna Malcora.
(27:01):
We all know that there are hugechallenges facing the United
Nations right now (27:07):
financial, geopolitical.
Isn't it a bit hard to say nowwe need a woman?
Just as the UN is becoming quiteirrelevant and nobody's paying
attention.
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Many times I have been asked that question.
And in fact, I have spoken withwomen who are very active in
this idea and that now wonderwhether it's the right time.
My answer to that, it is neverthe right time.
For one reason or another, it'snever right time.
That's why I say and I insist onthis, is not only a woman as a
(27:51):
Secretary General, it's a womanthat can build a strong enough
team around her to help herhandle all these many issues.
And women tend to be good teammakers.
Women tend to accept the notionof people thinking differently
and accepting suggestions.
(28:11):
That's what it needed.
We cannot have monolithic mindsthat know it all.
We need to have people who areaware that the issues are so
many and so difficult thatrequire plurality of approaches
to solve them.
SPEAKER_05 (28:30):
Are you confident then that the UN can survive and
stay relevant?
And that it has a better chanceof doing both with the woman.
SPEAKER_03 (28:42):
I am convinced that the UN is badly needed.
And if we were to say we throwit out of the window, but we
create something new, I promiseyou, whatever we create, it will
not be very different from whatwe have.
That's the reality, you know.
I mean, and some of the thingsthe UN suffers from are the
(29:02):
result of its own achievements.
You know, now we have 193 memberstates.
We started with somewhere around50.
It almost quadrupled.
Why is that?
Because the whole post-colonialperiod was part of the UN doing,
you know, bringing countries tothe fore, providing
opportunities for countries todeclare independence.
(29:25):
That's a huge success.
But now you have to agree among193 in the General Assembly.
So whatever you do, if you wereto create a new institution,
will not differ dramatically,organically from what we have.
What we need is an organizationthat functions, that has the
(29:47):
energy to do what it has to do,that is ready to take the risk
that it has to take.
And has is ready also torecognize that there are certain
things that should not be doneby the UN.
And there are otherinstitutions, you know, like the
African Union, like the regionalorganizations.
So set the frame for the bigthings and then divide on who
(30:10):
does what, when, and where.
Those things should make the UNrelevant again.
The UN goes beyond the SecurityCouncil and the blockage of the
Security Council among the B5.
So there is a need for the UN.
There is a need for the UN to berelevant.
Being relevant sometimes isbeing there when needed, even if
(30:31):
you don't have the tools tosolve all the problems.
Put the light on the issues,raise your voice at the right
place, not only throughstatements in New York, but be
there for the people.
I am convinced that this isabsolutely needed.
That's what I work for.
I know that the UN needs toreinvent itself in many ways.
(30:54):
And I am persuaded that a newSecretary General, together with
many others, is not magic, it'snot a miracle.
It requires support.
But creating an environment, aconducive environment of
dialogue among member states ispart of the role of the
Secretary General, and thatshould help get us where we
(31:15):
need.
SPEAKER_05 (31:16):
Well, the contest to lead the United Nations is
continuing.
All candidates have had hearingsat the UN General Assembly.
In the next few weeks, the UNSecurity Council will begin
closed door discussions.
They'll take the views of allmember states and try to
recommend a single candidate.
That's when the dreaded veto cancome into play.
(31:38):
Remember Susanna Malcora tellingme at the start of this podcast
that she was vetoed but didn'twant to say by whom?
Well, the answer to that iscomplicated.
She is from Argentina, and it'sbelieved the UK was unhappy with
her position over the FalklandIslands.
But it's also possible Malcorasimply did not have enough
(32:01):
support from member states.
This time around, the UnitedStates has said openly it will
veto Michel Bachelet because ofher stance on women's rights and
reproductive rights.
This despite the United Nationsalready having multiple
agreements upholding women'srights in its original charter,
(32:21):
in the Beijing Declaration onWomen, in the Sustainable
Development Goals.
So before we go, here's whatMichelle Batchelett had to say
about that when I caught up withher after the debate.
SPEAKER_00 (32:33):
I do believe that women's rights is something
essential.
And if I'm Secretary General, Iwill be continuing pushing for
human rights, for women'srights, including sexual and
reproductive rights, becausethat's not something that a
Secretary General will impose.
It's the Secretary General hasto continue the agreements that
the UN has already developed.
(32:54):
I shouldn't say this, but I'mgoing to say it because I truly
believe.
If somebody beatles me because Ibelieve in democracy, because I
believe in multilateralism,because I believe in women's
rights, because I believe inhuman rights, I mean I would be
honored.
SPEAKER_05 (33:15):
And those feisty words from a woman who I suspect
recognizes all too well thechallenges this contest poses
bring us to the end of thisedition of Inside Geneva.
We hope you enjoyed today'sprogramme.
Next time we'll be starting oursummer profile series, where
we'll take a look at modernwarfare, cyber attacks, and talk
(33:38):
to a man who's working to bringthe protection of the Red Cross
emblem into the digital age.
That's out on July 21st.
Do join us then.
(34:00):
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
I'm Imogen folks.
(34:21):
Thanks again for listening tothe
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.