March 17, 2026 • 29 mins
On Inside Geneva this week, we look at women fighting for justice.
In 2017, Myanmar’s military launched an assault on the Rohingya population. Almost a million were displaced, there were reports of horrific violations: rape, the murder of children, including babies.
“The accounts that affected me most are those of children. Now I’m a grandfather, I sit there and listen and I think of my own kids when they were young and my grandkids now. How can you not?,” says Chris Sidoti from the Myanmar fact-finding mission.
The UN investigators who documented the evidence were shocked, but feared there would be no accountability.
“They asked me for justice and when I asked them 'why are you here, why have you been waiting all day in the camps', many of them were not able to walk, they had not eaten and they wanted justice. And at that time, I really thought it would not be possible for justice to come,” says Antonia Mulvey from Legal Action Worldwide.
But now, almost a decade later, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) is hearing a case of genocide against Myanmar.
“To see now, action in the ICJ: I still know how many years it’s going to take. I still know that the Myanmar butchers who are responsible for what happened may never individually be brought to justice. But I certainly live in hope that one day they will,” says Sidoti.
Mulvey is at the ICJ, supporting women who are testifying about what happened. “If you were in that court, I can assure you, international law is alive and it is fighting very hard,” she says.
Join host Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva.
Get in touch!
- Email us at insidegeneva@swissinfo.ch
- Twitter: @ImogenFoulkes and @swissinfo_en
Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter.
For more stories on the international Geneva please visit www.swissinfo.ch/
Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
Distribution: Sara Pasino
Marketing: Xin Zhang
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:07):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folks, andthis is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_09 (00:24):
For a year now, in this bleak landscape, the
Rehenja have been suffering.
Giving harrowing accounts of thebrutality they say they suffered
at the hands of the Myanmarmilitary.
SPEAKER_08 (00:36):
I still know that the Myanmar butchers who are
responsible for what happenedmay never individually be
brought to justice, but Icertainly live in hope that one
day they will.
SPEAKER_11 (01:02):
And um then she was she was gang raped.
SPEAKER_04 (01:05):
Is this possible?
How can human beings do suchhorrible things to other human
beings?
SPEAKER_02 (01:11):
They asked me for justice, and when I asked them,
why are you here?
Why have you been waiting allday in the camps?
Many of them weren't able towalk, they'd not eaten, and they
wanted justice.
And at that time I reallythought, how would it be
possible for justice to come?
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
The UN's highest court is hearing a genocide case
against Myanmar.
The military is accused ofcarrying out a campaign of mass
killings and human rights abusesagainst Rohingya Muslims.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
If you were in that court, I can assure you
international law is alive andit is fighting very hard.
SPEAKER_03 (01:50):
And today, continuing our focus on women
this month, we're going to lookat the charges of genocide
against Myanmar brought by theGambia at the International
Court of Justice.
The case revolves aroundMyanmar's brutal military
operation in 2017, in which upto a million Rohingya Muslims
(02:11):
were driven out of their homes,their villages were burnt, there
were widespread reports of rape,murder, and torture.
Antonia Mulvey of theGeneva-based organization Legal
Action Worldwide is supportingRohingya women in the case.
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
It's the first case before the ICJ in more than a
decade.
And let's be honest and clear,this is comes at a time where
international law is underattack, international justice
institutions are under attack.
So I think it's very importantfor a number of factors.
The world that we live in rightnow is sending a message that
(02:49):
the UN highest court in theworld is there here in case of
genocide.
A very strong message forvictims and survivors.
And importantly, the decisionfor this case will impact future
genocide cases at the ICJ.
SPEAKER_11 (03:06):
The types of abuses that we heard that had been
visited upon Rohingya refugeesare among the worst kind of
abuses that had ever heard aboutas journalists.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
The next morning, they were taken outside the
village where they watched theirneighbors dig a shallow grave.
Witnesses say they were shot andthen piled into the makeshift
graves, some still moving.
SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Before we hear that in-depth interview with Antonia,
let's remember that one of thefactors that spurred the Gambia
to launch this case was thehorrific evidence gathered by
the UN's own fact-findingmission to Myanmar.
Chris Siddotti led that mission.
I interviewed him for insideGeneva some years later, and it
(03:52):
was clear that what he saw andheard during that mission will
stay with him forever.
SPEAKER_08 (03:58):
We all had the experience of sitting and
talking face to face withvictims and witnesses of some of
the most serious human rightsatrocities you could imagine.
The the accounts that perhapsaffect me most are are those of
children.
And we talk to a lot of kids.
(04:25):
Those experiences that they tellus that we're privileged to hear
stay with you.
They don't get forgotten.
SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
She spent weeks in Rohingya refugee camps in
Bangladesh interviewingsurvivors.
At first, she couldn't quitebelieve what she was hearing.
SPEAKER_04 (04:45):
I thought to myself, is this possible?
How can human beings can do suchhorrible things to other human
beings?
And stories that do stays withyou, of course, like now some
years has passed by thatexperience.
I had to still remember.
You know, most of my interactionand interviews with victims and
witnesses were with people thatI suffered witness the killing
(05:07):
of one or more family, familymembers.
And I remember, you know, thishusband telling me being just
there in their house with hiswife, uh, you know, doing just
ordinary things.
His wife was cooking rice.
And then, you know, the routinewould just interrupt by the
sound of the ancient outside.
And it was just a split ofseconds that make the husband
(05:30):
going outside the door with abullet shot straight in the
chest of his wife and died infront of his eyes.
And you know, you're there, atleast in the story, and he tells
me, you know, I couldn't evencomfort them in the last minutes
of your life, and that's justone story of the thousand
horrible stories that wecollected in the case.
(05:51):
I'm a mother myself, and hearingthe experience of mothers whose
baby have been taken from theirhome from their chest while
they're speeding, throw theminto the pits.
Like it's it's incredible.
But you ask me, do you know, dothese stories affect you, have
an impact on you?
I think they do.
But it's true that uh, you know,you also this is your job, and
(06:11):
uh, you know, you're trying toembrace your professionality the
best you can.
SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
For both Chris Sudhoti and Ilaria Charla, it's
crucial that the evidence theygathered actually achieves
something.
SPEAKER_08 (06:24):
We can guarantee that the record will be written,
that the evidence that they giveto us will contribute to
presenting the entire picture ofwhat occurred and preserving it
historically.
And we hope that in addition,there will be possibilities of
international justice.
And that their story maycontribute to the development of
(06:46):
a picture that causes theinternational community.
Um can I be blunt, the bloodyworld get off its ass and do
something.
SPEAKER_06 (06:54):
We did not bring this case lightly.
We brought this case afterreviewing credible reports of
the most brutal and viciousviolations imaginable inflicted
upon a vulnerable group that hadbeen dehumanized and persecuted
for many years.
We received and carefullyexamined the Meticulus reports
(07:17):
of the United Nationsfact-finding mission.
SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Well, perhaps Chris's wish is now coming true.
The International Court ofJustice has begun hearing the
case against Myanmar, and amongthose giving evidence is Salma,
who has traveled from therefugee camp in Bangladesh in
her search for justice.
SPEAKER_07 (07:46):
Boys, men, girls, and women were raped.
We were subjected to horrificatrocities.
Even though I was a marriedwoman, I was not spared from
sexual abuse and torture.
Young children were thrown inthe fire.
SPEAKER_03 (08:16):
Like Chris and Ilaria, Antonia too was almost
10 years ago part of a UN humanrights investigation on Myanmar.
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
So my role goes back actually to 2016, where I was
asked to investigate and to lookat human rights violations
against ethnic minorities inMyanmar for the first human
rights council report.
At that time, I already saw apattern of sexual violence by
(08:49):
the Myanmar military, often thenknown as the Tatmador.
This is a pattern of conductthat they have had for decades,
primarily targeting women andgirls, but also men and boys and
transgender.
In 2017, I was appointed by theHuman Rights Council to
investigate crimes that hadtaken place and was deployed to
(09:14):
on the Myanmar-Bangladesh borderjust after the 25th of August
when the main militaryoperations were taking place
against the Rohingya.
My file was to investigatecrimes of sexual violence and
crimes against children.
I interviewed maybe 150 womenand children, boys and girls,
(09:35):
but primarily women and girls,and listened to their stories,
and so many of them asked me,they asked me for justice.
And when I asked them why areyou here, why have you been
waiting all day in the camps?
Many of them weren't able towalk, they'd not eaten, they had
no shelter, and they wantedjustice.
And at that time I reallythought, how would it be
(09:58):
possible for justice to comeabout?
When I left as a UN investigatorin 2018 at Legal Action
Worldwide, decided that weshould be assisting Rohingya
victims and survivors in theirquest for international justice.
SPEAKER_03 (10:14):
Take us back then to when you were in those refugee
camps interviewing survivors.
You already knew, as you said,this was this kind of sexual
violence had been inflicted forfor years.
But still, when you heard theaccounts, what was your reaction
(10:36):
as a as a woman?
SPEAKER_02 (10:37):
You know, I I have four children, and my son at the
time was three months old.
It was a very difficult decisionto leave him.
And in fact, all of my childrenwere under age seven and below
at the time.
So it was particularly difficultto not only to leave them, but
then to to listen to thesestories of the targeted killing
(10:57):
of children.
These weren't it was not byaccident, no.
They singled out children,babies, toddlers, uh, they
killed them, they threw theminto the fire, they drowned
them.
But also listening to women, tomothers who described being
raped and gang raped and havingtheir children killed in front
(11:19):
of them, or their childrenwatching this.
So I have to say it w it it wasvery emotionally difficult to
it's difficult to listen tothese stories, but listen to
these stories we we must,because they are there to tell
some of the most painful momentsof their lives.
And and our job, or I I believemy job as as an international
(11:40):
law and investigator is toensure that the world hears
these stories and that we don'tturn away.
And we assist them, particularlythis group of people who are
mainly illiterate, they can'tread or even write, um, to
assist them to help them to forthe world not to forget, for
them to seek justice for what'shappened to them and their
families.
(12:00):
So it's profoundly moving, andthat's why it was so I think
emotionally and intellectually,but to sit in the court again to
listen to the stories that I hadtaken, not only as you're an
investigator, but then nowrepresenting victims and
survivors, you think, gosh, yes,you know, we we can see justice
can happen, particularly forwomen and girls.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
So it's it's 10 years basically.
Now we're at the theInternational Court of Justice.
Was this what you had foreseen adecade ago?
Or do you just think, no, atleast I need to write this down
and say this happened?
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
Uh I think I was saying that so sometimes in life
it's really good to be wrong.
And I was definitely wrong whenI remember sitting in those
camps thinking, I don't justcan't think that they're not
going to get justice, they'renot gonna get the justice that
they deserve.
There's no there's noforeseeable legal pathway for
them.
And it is incredible to to seethat now you have these
(13:02):
different justice processes.
And of course, it's justice ismuch more than just being in the
court.
We we know that, but it is animportant and a very symbolic
moment and a legally powerfulmoment in time as well.
SPEAKER_03 (13:19):
It must be hard for the survivors of this kind of
violence, though, to come allthe way to The Hague and testify
and almost have to relive whathappened to them.
SPEAKER_02 (13:31):
I was amazed when I was um when I have worked and
and with these victims andsurvivors of sexual violence,
the courage that they show intalking about what has happened
to them.
And often when you ask them why,they will say because frequently
what's happened to their totheir family members.
So most of survivors talk aboutthat.
(13:53):
Now I have to say that peoplejust didn't happen to be able to
turn up into The Hague.
We've worked with them for yearsand years and years to prepare
for this moment, and those thathave the courage to be able to
travel to The Hague, and we haveto remember that these people
were not able to move freely inMyanmar, they can't move freely
(14:14):
in Bangladesh, they're in camps.
They've never got in a planebefore.
They didn't know, they don't,they've never put a seatbelt on
in a car before.
Every single element that wetake for granted is new for
them.
And then you go to this huge,incredible, it is incredible,
court has um it's very grand.
You feel it yourself when you goin there.
(14:37):
And I don't think anything canquite prepare you for when you
walk into that InternationalCourt of Justice, but they they
were amazing.
And particularly women who havelived in a patriarchal society.
Let's also remember that womenin Myanmar and also the Rohingya
now and Bangladesh, they're notable to leave their homes.
(14:59):
So many of them will never haveleft that small shelter which
might be, you know, a fewmetres.
This has got so manyextraordinary elements to it.
And I think one of the reasons Ifought for them so hard is
because their bravery andcourage is quite inspirational,
and I think we need thatinspiration right now in the
world that we are in, and thatshould should guide us.
SPEAKER_03 (15:21):
Obviously, your primary concern is justice for
the people you are accompanyingto The Hague, but this case
could be precedent-setting,could have wider ramifications.
There are other possiblegenocide cases before the ICJ.
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
Yes, absolutely.
So this case is the firstgenocide case in more than a
decade.
This case is the first time inthe court told us more than 14
years that you've had witnessesgive in-person evidence.
The first time that we've hadvictims delegation, which
included men, women andtransgender survivors of sexual
(15:57):
violence.
I I mention all of this becauseall of these are our first and
we hope will contribute towardsa positive decision of genocide.
And also it's important to noteMyanmar's argument, which in
summary is that this was acounter-insurgency operation.
(16:19):
They are terrorists, and this iswhat we had to do.
This included men, it includedwomen, and it could include
children, and therefore theywere legitimate targets.
The rest of the evidence was wasnot credible, including UN
fact-finding missions andwitness statements.
So indeed, if we look at thecases that are before the
(16:40):
International Court of Justice,it will have a significant
impact for them.
And of course, the the extent tothat will have to wait until a
decision is made by theInternational Court of Justice.
But it will definitely includean impact on the South Africa
versus Israel genocide case.
SPEAKER_03 (16:58):
There's also the aspect of arguing that this kind
of organized sexual violence isan aspect of genocide.
SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
Yes.
So the sexual violence aspect ofthe genocide case was a critical
part.
Two parts actually, if we lookat this.
First of all, the actus reus ofgenocide.
So mass rapes took place, massgang rapes took place, sexual
enslavement took place, and weknow from case law that this now
constitutes important elementsof acts of genocide.
(17:34):
But it was also, it's also theway that they carried it out.
So, first of all, as we know,sexual violence, you can never
have a defense argument that itwas part of a terrorist
operation.
But let's not forget it was alsothe brutal way in which they
carried out the sexual violencein public, in front of family
members.
(17:55):
They mutilated uh individualswhilst they raped them.
They told them that we will killyou by raping you.
So it was what they said whenthey committed the sexual
violence, the brutality of it,the public nature of it.
They also targeted particularlygirls and women of reproductive
(18:15):
age, very young girls, and gangrape as well.
What's the purpose of that?
Well, one of them is that we sawa very high rate of women and
girls giving birth the yearafter the clearance operations,
all part of the genocidal intentof the Myanmar military, and
knowing that they had verylimited as well medical
(18:37):
facilities from within Myanmarand within Bangladesh.
Many of them died from thesexual violence and from trying
to leave Myanmar and intotraversing into Bangladesh.
And therefore, having witnessesthat will talk about, and here
in this case we had NJ, she gaveevidence at the court about
(19:02):
being gang raped and the killingof her father, her husband, and
her son was very, veryimportant.
And the judges listened verykeenly to this.
Another witness, MS, describedhow the last time he saw his
wife and his children, his wifeand children were taken in to
(19:23):
one of the huts.
In those huts, what happened tothem was that uh women and girls
and children were raped, gangraped, and they were killed, and
also those huts were set alight.
SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
If the ICJ finds in favour of Gambia and against
Myanmar, what will be theconsequences for Myanmar?
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Firstly, the court, uh well, let's go back for a
moment in the in the courtactually and look up and let's
think about what the agent forthe representative of Myanmar
said.
He said this will be a stain onour collective conscience of
Myanmar.
When the Gambia agent, thewonderful Minister Jallo, opened
up, he said, No, the stain isyours, Myanmar, because you have
(20:07):
committed genocide.
So, firstly, Myanmar has stoodup in the court and has put up a
defense.
We should not underestimatethat, that countries are
violating international law, butthey do not want to be found
liable for genocide.
This is really important.
So this in of itself will bevery important.
Then the court can order, andGambia has requested a number of
(20:31):
things.
Number one, they have requestedfor Rohingya to be recognized,
to be given citizenship.
They can order to have theirland and property back or inform
compensation.
They can order reparations inthe form of compensation.
They can order for domesticinvestigations and prosecutions
to take place.
Often the question we hear iswell, you know, Myanmar will not
(20:53):
comply with that.
They didn't comply with theprovisional measures.
That's potentially true.
But let's not forget that thingscan change overnight.
We saw what happened with Syria.
No one was expecting the Assadregime to fall.
And therefore, this judgment isvery important because it can be
implemented in the future.
And also in the region, we'veseen countries potentially
(21:17):
normalizing relationships.
Well, when you have the highestcourt in the world say that this
state has committed genocide,this will also should impact and
can be utilized for how trade ishappening, sanctions are
happening, or normalizing ofrelationships.
SPEAKER_03 (21:32):
And given that a key part of this case is the
commission of sexual violence,in an overall case that is is a
charge of genocide, what willthis mean for women in conflict?
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
I think um this case I hope has shown that if you
work with women, if you assistthem to move from victims to
survivors to advocates.
They can have the courage to bepresent in the court to listen
to what happened and they cangive testimony in the court.
(22:07):
And I want to tell you that whenI saw NJ afterwards, after she
talked about what happened toher, the gang rate that she
suffered, her face was luminous.
She felt relieved.
She had done something huge forherself.
And this is massive.
We should be shifting thisstigma.
It's not their stigma, it's tothose who've perpetrated these
(22:27):
crimes.
There also be a recognition,again, that sexual violence can
constitute genocide.
This is not the first time we'veseen this in international
court.
Of course, we saw theInternational Criminal Tribunal
for Yugoslavia and Rwanda.
But it's very important thatthat's be recognized at the
highest court in the world.
So I think there's multipleimplications for it.
SPEAKER_03 (22:46):
One thing that strikes me is that we're seeing
a bit of a rowing away frominstitutions like the
International Criminal Court andthe International Court of
Justice.
The United States, for example,is sanctioning judges on the
International Criminal Court.
Do you think that theseinstitutions still have the
(23:08):
weight they had maybe 20 yearsago, even 10 years ago?
SPEAKER_02 (23:13):
That's a good question.
I think the International Courtof Justice has more weight than
it had 20 years ago becausewe've seen multiple cases being
taken by states, and we'reseeing um decisions being made
by the International Court ofJustice issuing of provisional
measures that are very importantand advisory opinions that are
being issued.
So I think it's a very it itstill retains its importance.
(23:37):
It's still the highest cohort inthe world when the vast majority
of states have accepted itsrole.
Having said that, also nationalcourts should be playing a very
(23:58):
important role, particularly inEurope, to investigate and
prosecute international crimes,war crimes, crimes against
humanity, and genocide andupholding international
humanitarian law is a veryimportant role that they can and
should be taking.
It's not only, we shouldn't onlybe leaving it to international
courts right now.
SPEAKER_03 (24:16):
For you personally, though, this is hard work and
harrowing work.
What motivates you, especiallywhen we see this drift away from
some of these internationalnorms and standards?
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
You know, having spent three weeks just sitting
in the court in The Hague, um Ithought, what a way to start
2026 when things are really,really bleak and we do question
ourselves about internationallaw.
If you were in that court, I canassure you, international law is
alive and it is fighting veryhard, and particularly for I
(24:49):
felt to put forward survivorsand particularly survivors of
sexual violence.
And, you know, we as aninternational lawyer, I'm
sitting here in Geneva, I can'tallow myself that despair.
I don't have that right.
We need to be standing up andfighting for those who don't
have that ability to travel, tobe able to speak out.
(25:10):
And I think what we can see isthat when states are ready to
speak out, and there are somestates that are ready to speak
out, and when the UN works withthem, collecting meticulous
evidence and information inreports, and when frontline
organizations work with victimsand survivors and also bring out
reports, you can see changehappen.
(25:31):
We cannot give up.
In fact, you know what?
We have to keep fighting harderand more strategically.
And I think that's where we needto be looking at for the next
five years and beyond.
SPEAKER_06 (25:41):
Mr.
President, Honourable Judges,these oral hearings come at a
time in which the fundamentalprinciples of international law,
as ensigned in the UN Charter,are under stress and threat.
SPEAKER_10 (25:55):
After years of violence, exile, and denial, the
Rohingya story is finally beingtold before judges at the
International Court of Justice.
SPEAKER_06 (26:03):
Many have lost faith in the promise of international
law.
And many are looking at thiscase to see if the Genocide
Convention is more than justwords on paper.
SPEAKER_03 (26:16):
Well, the ruling at the International Court of
Justice is expected towards theend of this year.
It's a case that will likelyhave ramifications for other
cases involving possiblegenocide, including South
Africa's case against Israelover Gaza.
Chris Sidotti, who is now amember of the UN Commission of
(26:36):
Inquiry on the OccupiedPalestinian Territory, is
heartened that what happened inMyanmar is now finally before
the world's highest court.
SPEAKER_08 (26:50):
Investigations underway in the International
Criminal Court.
I still know how many years it'sgoing to take.
But I certainly live in hopethat one day they will.
SPEAKER_03 (27:07):
Ilaria Charla shares that hope.
SPEAKER_04 (27:10):
I think uh, you know, we we're nothing without
hope.
And these people cannot turn totheir own jurisdiction, they
cannot seek remedies in theirown country.
So maybe yes, the UN is they'reonly open sometimes in some
cases.
I mean, and UN, you know, hasbeen there for a long time.
Uh is possibly the best thing wecame up with as an international
(27:30):
community.
I think it's important to havehope, you know.
Who are we as a human race if wedon't have hope?
SPEAKER_03 (27:37):
Hope and above all, determination to get justice is
what has inspired the women nowbravely testifying at the ICJ.
Women like Salma.
SPEAKER_07 (27:47):
I'll be sad again.
Our parents and grandparentshave become refugees three times
before us.
They did not know how to seekjustice because they were not
informed enough.
This time we will not returnwithout justice.
May we get our justice thistime.
SPEAKER_03 (28:03):
And that brings us to the end of this edition of
Inside Geneva.
I hope you were inspired as Iwas by the sheer courage of the
Rohingya women who have traveledto the International Court of
Justice and by the dedication ofthe lawyers and human rights
investigators supporting them.
(28:27):
Next time on Inside Geneva,we'll be looking at women in the
peace process.
Why are they so often left out?
Especially when the men seemnowadays at least to be so very
bad at resolving conflict.
SPEAKER_05 (28:42):
Women are completely absent in kind of high-level
politics at the moment, and thishigh-level peacemaking.
However, this is the visiblepart, and our kind of focus has
been so much on Trump.
I think he has really kind ofyou know taken the focus away
from all the other things thatare still happening.
(29:02):
So women are still working forpeace every day in different
conflict contexts.
SPEAKER_03 (29:07):
That's out on March 31st.
Do join us then.
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folks, andthis is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_09 (00:24):
For a year now, in this bleak landscape, the
Rehenja have been suffering.
Giving harrowing accounts of thebrutality they say they suffered
at the hands of the Myanmarmilitary.
SPEAKER_08 (00:36):
I still know that the Myanmar butchers who are
responsible for what happenedmay never individually be
brought to justice, but Icertainly live in hope that one
day they will.
SPEAKER_11 (01:02):
And um then she was she was gang raped.
SPEAKER_04 (01:05):
Is this possible?
How can human beings do suchhorrible things to other human
beings?
SPEAKER_02 (01:11):
They asked me for justice, and when I asked them,
why are you here?
Why have you been waiting allday in the camps?
Many of them weren't able towalk, they'd not eaten, and they
wanted justice.
And at that time I reallythought, how would it be
possible for justice to come?
SPEAKER_01 (01:25):
The UN's highest court is hearing a genocide case
against Myanmar.
The military is accused ofcarrying out a campaign of mass
killings and human rights abusesagainst Rohingya Muslims.
SPEAKER_02 (01:35):
If you were in that court, I can assure you
international law is alive andit is fighting very hard.
SPEAKER_03 (01:50):
And today, continuing our focus on women
this month, we're going to lookat the charges of genocide
against Myanmar brought by theGambia at the International
Court of Justice.
The case revolves aroundMyanmar's brutal military
operation in 2017, in which upto a million Rohingya Muslims
(02:11):
were driven out of their homes,their villages were burnt, there
were widespread reports of rape,murder, and torture.
Antonia Mulvey of theGeneva-based organization Legal
Action Worldwide is supportingRohingya women in the case.
SPEAKER_02 (02:28):
It's the first case before the ICJ in more than a
decade.
And let's be honest and clear,this is comes at a time where
international law is underattack, international justice
institutions are under attack.
So I think it's very importantfor a number of factors.
The world that we live in rightnow is sending a message that
(02:49):
the UN highest court in theworld is there here in case of
genocide.
A very strong message forvictims and survivors.
And importantly, the decisionfor this case will impact future
genocide cases at the ICJ.
SPEAKER_11 (03:06):
The types of abuses that we heard that had been
visited upon Rohingya refugeesare among the worst kind of
abuses that had ever heard aboutas journalists.
SPEAKER_00 (03:18):
The next morning, they were taken outside the
village where they watched theirneighbors dig a shallow grave.
Witnesses say they were shot andthen piled into the makeshift
graves, some still moving.
SPEAKER_03 (03:29):
Before we hear that in-depth interview with Antonia,
let's remember that one of thefactors that spurred the Gambia
to launch this case was thehorrific evidence gathered by
the UN's own fact-findingmission to Myanmar.
Chris Siddotti led that mission.
I interviewed him for insideGeneva some years later, and it
(03:52):
was clear that what he saw andheard during that mission will
stay with him forever.
SPEAKER_08 (03:58):
We all had the experience of sitting and
talking face to face withvictims and witnesses of some of
the most serious human rightsatrocities you could imagine.
The the accounts that perhapsaffect me most are are those of
children.
And we talk to a lot of kids.
(04:25):
Those experiences that they tellus that we're privileged to hear
stay with you.
They don't get forgotten.
SPEAKER_03 (04:35):
She spent weeks in Rohingya refugee camps in
Bangladesh interviewingsurvivors.
At first, she couldn't quitebelieve what she was hearing.
SPEAKER_04 (04:45):
I thought to myself, is this possible?
How can human beings can do suchhorrible things to other human
beings?
And stories that do stays withyou, of course, like now some
years has passed by thatexperience.
I had to still remember.
You know, most of my interactionand interviews with victims and
witnesses were with people thatI suffered witness the killing
(05:07):
of one or more family, familymembers.
And I remember, you know, thishusband telling me being just
there in their house with hiswife, uh, you know, doing just
ordinary things.
His wife was cooking rice.
And then, you know, the routinewould just interrupt by the
sound of the ancient outside.
And it was just a split ofseconds that make the husband
(05:30):
going outside the door with abullet shot straight in the
chest of his wife and died infront of his eyes.
And you know, you're there, atleast in the story, and he tells
me, you know, I couldn't evencomfort them in the last minutes
of your life, and that's justone story of the thousand
horrible stories that wecollected in the case.
(05:51):
I'm a mother myself, and hearingthe experience of mothers whose
baby have been taken from theirhome from their chest while
they're speeding, throw theminto the pits.
Like it's it's incredible.
But you ask me, do you know, dothese stories affect you, have
an impact on you?
I think they do.
But it's true that uh, you know,you also this is your job, and
(06:11):
uh, you know, you're trying toembrace your professionality the
best you can.
SPEAKER_03 (06:16):
For both Chris Sudhoti and Ilaria Charla, it's
crucial that the evidence theygathered actually achieves
something.
SPEAKER_08 (06:24):
We can guarantee that the record will be written,
that the evidence that they giveto us will contribute to
presenting the entire picture ofwhat occurred and preserving it
historically.
And we hope that in addition,there will be possibilities of
international justice.
And that their story maycontribute to the development of
(06:46):
a picture that causes theinternational community.
Um can I be blunt, the bloodyworld get off its ass and do
something.
SPEAKER_06 (06:54):
We did not bring this case lightly.
We brought this case afterreviewing credible reports of
the most brutal and viciousviolations imaginable inflicted
upon a vulnerable group that hadbeen dehumanized and persecuted
for many years.
We received and carefullyexamined the Meticulus reports
(07:17):
of the United Nationsfact-finding mission.
SPEAKER_03 (07:19):
Well, perhaps Chris's wish is now coming true.
The International Court ofJustice has begun hearing the
case against Myanmar, and amongthose giving evidence is Salma,
who has traveled from therefugee camp in Bangladesh in
her search for justice.
SPEAKER_07 (07:46):
Boys, men, girls, and women were raped.
We were subjected to horrificatrocities.
Even though I was a marriedwoman, I was not spared from
sexual abuse and torture.
Young children were thrown inthe fire.
SPEAKER_03 (08:16):
Like Chris and Ilaria, Antonia too was almost
10 years ago part of a UN humanrights investigation on Myanmar.
SPEAKER_02 (08:26):
So my role goes back actually to 2016, where I was
asked to investigate and to lookat human rights violations
against ethnic minorities inMyanmar for the first human
rights council report.
At that time, I already saw apattern of sexual violence by
(08:49):
the Myanmar military, often thenknown as the Tatmador.
This is a pattern of conductthat they have had for decades,
primarily targeting women andgirls, but also men and boys and
transgender.
In 2017, I was appointed by theHuman Rights Council to
investigate crimes that hadtaken place and was deployed to
(09:14):
on the Myanmar-Bangladesh borderjust after the 25th of August
when the main militaryoperations were taking place
against the Rohingya.
My file was to investigatecrimes of sexual violence and
crimes against children.
I interviewed maybe 150 womenand children, boys and girls,
(09:35):
but primarily women and girls,and listened to their stories,
and so many of them asked me,they asked me for justice.
And when I asked them why areyou here, why have you been
waiting all day in the camps?
Many of them weren't able towalk, they'd not eaten, they had
no shelter, and they wantedjustice.
And at that time I reallythought, how would it be
(09:58):
possible for justice to comeabout?
When I left as a UN investigatorin 2018 at Legal Action
Worldwide, decided that weshould be assisting Rohingya
victims and survivors in theirquest for international justice.
SPEAKER_03 (10:14):
Take us back then to when you were in those refugee
camps interviewing survivors.
You already knew, as you said,this was this kind of sexual
violence had been inflicted forfor years.
But still, when you heard theaccounts, what was your reaction
(10:36):
as a as a woman?
SPEAKER_02 (10:37):
You know, I I have four children, and my son at the
time was three months old.
It was a very difficult decisionto leave him.
And in fact, all of my childrenwere under age seven and below
at the time.
So it was particularly difficultto not only to leave them, but
then to to listen to thesestories of the targeted killing
(10:57):
of children.
These weren't it was not byaccident, no.
They singled out children,babies, toddlers, uh, they
killed them, they threw theminto the fire, they drowned
them.
But also listening to women, tomothers who described being
raped and gang raped and havingtheir children killed in front
(11:19):
of them, or their childrenwatching this.
So I have to say it w it it wasvery emotionally difficult to
it's difficult to listen tothese stories, but listen to
these stories we we must,because they are there to tell
some of the most painful momentsof their lives.
And and our job, or I I believemy job as as an international
(11:40):
law and investigator is toensure that the world hears
these stories and that we don'tturn away.
And we assist them, particularlythis group of people who are
mainly illiterate, they can'tread or even write, um, to
assist them to help them to forthe world not to forget, for
them to seek justice for what'shappened to them and their
families.
(12:00):
So it's profoundly moving, andthat's why it was so I think
emotionally and intellectually,but to sit in the court again to
listen to the stories that I hadtaken, not only as you're an
investigator, but then nowrepresenting victims and
survivors, you think, gosh, yes,you know, we we can see justice
can happen, particularly forwomen and girls.
SPEAKER_03 (12:23):
So it's it's 10 years basically.
Now we're at the theInternational Court of Justice.
Was this what you had foreseen adecade ago?
Or do you just think, no, atleast I need to write this down
and say this happened?
SPEAKER_02 (12:38):
Uh I think I was saying that so sometimes in life
it's really good to be wrong.
And I was definitely wrong whenI remember sitting in those
camps thinking, I don't justcan't think that they're not
going to get justice, they'renot gonna get the justice that
they deserve.
There's no there's noforeseeable legal pathway for
them.
And it is incredible to to seethat now you have these
(13:02):
different justice processes.
And of course, it's justice ismuch more than just being in the
court.
We we know that, but it is animportant and a very symbolic
moment and a legally powerfulmoment in time as well.
SPEAKER_03 (13:19):
It must be hard for the survivors of this kind of
violence, though, to come allthe way to The Hague and testify
and almost have to relive whathappened to them.
SPEAKER_02 (13:31):
I was amazed when I was um when I have worked and
and with these victims andsurvivors of sexual violence,
the courage that they show intalking about what has happened
to them.
And often when you ask them why,they will say because frequently
what's happened to their totheir family members.
So most of survivors talk aboutthat.
(13:53):
Now I have to say that peoplejust didn't happen to be able to
turn up into The Hague.
We've worked with them for yearsand years and years to prepare
for this moment, and those thathave the courage to be able to
travel to The Hague, and we haveto remember that these people
were not able to move freely inMyanmar, they can't move freely
(14:14):
in Bangladesh, they're in camps.
They've never got in a planebefore.
They didn't know, they don't,they've never put a seatbelt on
in a car before.
Every single element that wetake for granted is new for
them.
And then you go to this huge,incredible, it is incredible,
court has um it's very grand.
You feel it yourself when you goin there.
(14:37):
And I don't think anything canquite prepare you for when you
walk into that InternationalCourt of Justice, but they they
were amazing.
And particularly women who havelived in a patriarchal society.
Let's also remember that womenin Myanmar and also the Rohingya
now and Bangladesh, they're notable to leave their homes.
(14:59):
So many of them will never haveleft that small shelter which
might be, you know, a fewmetres.
This has got so manyextraordinary elements to it.
And I think one of the reasons Ifought for them so hard is
because their bravery andcourage is quite inspirational,
and I think we need thatinspiration right now in the
world that we are in, and thatshould should guide us.
SPEAKER_03 (15:21):
Obviously, your primary concern is justice for
the people you are accompanyingto The Hague, but this case
could be precedent-setting,could have wider ramifications.
There are other possiblegenocide cases before the ICJ.
SPEAKER_02 (15:37):
Yes, absolutely.
So this case is the firstgenocide case in more than a
decade.
This case is the first time inthe court told us more than 14
years that you've had witnessesgive in-person evidence.
The first time that we've hadvictims delegation, which
included men, women andtransgender survivors of sexual
(15:57):
violence.
I I mention all of this becauseall of these are our first and
we hope will contribute towardsa positive decision of genocide.
And also it's important to noteMyanmar's argument, which in
summary is that this was acounter-insurgency operation.
(16:19):
They are terrorists, and this iswhat we had to do.
This included men, it includedwomen, and it could include
children, and therefore theywere legitimate targets.
The rest of the evidence was wasnot credible, including UN
fact-finding missions andwitness statements.
So indeed, if we look at thecases that are before the
(16:40):
International Court of Justice,it will have a significant
impact for them.
And of course, the the extent tothat will have to wait until a
decision is made by theInternational Court of Justice.
But it will definitely includean impact on the South Africa
versus Israel genocide case.
SPEAKER_03 (16:58):
There's also the aspect of arguing that this kind
of organized sexual violence isan aspect of genocide.
SPEAKER_02 (17:10):
Yes.
So the sexual violence aspect ofthe genocide case was a critical
part.
Two parts actually, if we lookat this.
First of all, the actus reus ofgenocide.
So mass rapes took place, massgang rapes took place, sexual
enslavement took place, and weknow from case law that this now
constitutes important elementsof acts of genocide.
(17:34):
But it was also, it's also theway that they carried it out.
So, first of all, as we know,sexual violence, you can never
have a defense argument that itwas part of a terrorist
operation.
But let's not forget it was alsothe brutal way in which they
carried out the sexual violencein public, in front of family
members.
(17:55):
They mutilated uh individualswhilst they raped them.
They told them that we will killyou by raping you.
So it was what they said whenthey committed the sexual
violence, the brutality of it,the public nature of it.
They also targeted particularlygirls and women of reproductive
(18:15):
age, very young girls, and gangrape as well.
What's the purpose of that?
Well, one of them is that we sawa very high rate of women and
girls giving birth the yearafter the clearance operations,
all part of the genocidal intentof the Myanmar military, and
knowing that they had verylimited as well medical
(18:37):
facilities from within Myanmarand within Bangladesh.
Many of them died from thesexual violence and from trying
to leave Myanmar and intotraversing into Bangladesh.
And therefore, having witnessesthat will talk about, and here
in this case we had NJ, she gaveevidence at the court about
(19:02):
being gang raped and the killingof her father, her husband, and
her son was very, veryimportant.
And the judges listened verykeenly to this.
Another witness, MS, describedhow the last time he saw his
wife and his children, his wifeand children were taken in to
(19:23):
one of the huts.
In those huts, what happened tothem was that uh women and girls
and children were raped, gangraped, and they were killed, and
also those huts were set alight.
SPEAKER_03 (19:35):
If the ICJ finds in favour of Gambia and against
Myanmar, what will be theconsequences for Myanmar?
SPEAKER_02 (19:45):
Firstly, the court, uh well, let's go back for a
moment in the in the courtactually and look up and let's
think about what the agent forthe representative of Myanmar
said.
He said this will be a stain onour collective conscience of
Myanmar.
When the Gambia agent, thewonderful Minister Jallo, opened
up, he said, No, the stain isyours, Myanmar, because you have
(20:07):
committed genocide.
So, firstly, Myanmar has stoodup in the court and has put up a
defense.
We should not underestimatethat, that countries are
violating international law, butthey do not want to be found
liable for genocide.
This is really important.
So this in of itself will bevery important.
Then the court can order, andGambia has requested a number of
(20:31):
things.
Number one, they have requestedfor Rohingya to be recognized,
to be given citizenship.
They can order to have theirland and property back or inform
compensation.
They can order reparations inthe form of compensation.
They can order for domesticinvestigations and prosecutions
to take place.
Often the question we hear iswell, you know, Myanmar will not
(20:53):
comply with that.
They didn't comply with theprovisional measures.
That's potentially true.
But let's not forget that thingscan change overnight.
We saw what happened with Syria.
No one was expecting the Assadregime to fall.
And therefore, this judgment isvery important because it can be
implemented in the future.
And also in the region, we'veseen countries potentially
(21:17):
normalizing relationships.
Well, when you have the highestcourt in the world say that this
state has committed genocide,this will also should impact and
can be utilized for how trade ishappening, sanctions are
happening, or normalizing ofrelationships.
SPEAKER_03 (21:32):
And given that a key part of this case is the
commission of sexual violence,in an overall case that is is a
charge of genocide, what willthis mean for women in conflict?
SPEAKER_02 (21:47):
I think um this case I hope has shown that if you
work with women, if you assistthem to move from victims to
survivors to advocates.
They can have the courage to bepresent in the court to listen
to what happened and they cangive testimony in the court.
(22:07):
And I want to tell you that whenI saw NJ afterwards, after she
talked about what happened toher, the gang rate that she
suffered, her face was luminous.
She felt relieved.
She had done something huge forherself.
And this is massive.
We should be shifting thisstigma.
It's not their stigma, it's tothose who've perpetrated these
(22:27):
crimes.
There also be a recognition,again, that sexual violence can
constitute genocide.
This is not the first time we'veseen this in international
court.
Of course, we saw theInternational Criminal Tribunal
for Yugoslavia and Rwanda.
But it's very important thatthat's be recognized at the
highest court in the world.
So I think there's multipleimplications for it.
SPEAKER_03 (22:46):
One thing that strikes me is that we're seeing
a bit of a rowing away frominstitutions like the
International Criminal Court andthe International Court of
Justice.
The United States, for example,is sanctioning judges on the
International Criminal Court.
Do you think that theseinstitutions still have the
(23:08):
weight they had maybe 20 yearsago, even 10 years ago?
SPEAKER_02 (23:13):
That's a good question.
I think the International Courtof Justice has more weight than
it had 20 years ago becausewe've seen multiple cases being
taken by states, and we'reseeing um decisions being made
by the International Court ofJustice issuing of provisional
measures that are very importantand advisory opinions that are
being issued.
So I think it's a very it itstill retains its importance.
(23:37):
It's still the highest cohort inthe world when the vast majority
of states have accepted itsrole.
Having said that, also nationalcourts should be playing a very
(23:58):
important role, particularly inEurope, to investigate and
prosecute international crimes,war crimes, crimes against
humanity, and genocide andupholding international
humanitarian law is a veryimportant role that they can and
should be taking.
It's not only, we shouldn't onlybe leaving it to international
courts right now.
SPEAKER_03 (24:16):
For you personally, though, this is hard work and
harrowing work.
What motivates you, especiallywhen we see this drift away from
some of these internationalnorms and standards?
SPEAKER_02 (24:28):
You know, having spent three weeks just sitting
in the court in The Hague, um Ithought, what a way to start
2026 when things are really,really bleak and we do question
ourselves about internationallaw.
If you were in that court, I canassure you, international law is
alive and it is fighting veryhard, and particularly for I
(24:49):
felt to put forward survivorsand particularly survivors of
sexual violence.
And, you know, we as aninternational lawyer, I'm
sitting here in Geneva, I can'tallow myself that despair.
I don't have that right.
We need to be standing up andfighting for those who don't
have that ability to travel, tobe able to speak out.
(25:10):
And I think what we can see isthat when states are ready to
speak out, and there are somestates that are ready to speak
out, and when the UN works withthem, collecting meticulous
evidence and information inreports, and when frontline
organizations work with victimsand survivors and also bring out
reports, you can see changehappen.
(25:31):
We cannot give up.
In fact, you know what?
We have to keep fighting harderand more strategically.
And I think that's where we needto be looking at for the next
five years and beyond.
SPEAKER_06 (25:41):
Mr.
President, Honourable Judges,these oral hearings come at a
time in which the fundamentalprinciples of international law,
as ensigned in the UN Charter,are under stress and threat.
SPEAKER_10 (25:55):
After years of violence, exile, and denial, the
Rohingya story is finally beingtold before judges at the
International Court of Justice.
SPEAKER_06 (26:03):
Many have lost faith in the promise of international
law.
And many are looking at thiscase to see if the Genocide
Convention is more than justwords on paper.
SPEAKER_03 (26:16):
Well, the ruling at the International Court of
Justice is expected towards theend of this year.
It's a case that will likelyhave ramifications for other
cases involving possiblegenocide, including South
Africa's case against Israelover Gaza.
Chris Sidotti, who is now amember of the UN Commission of
(26:36):
Inquiry on the OccupiedPalestinian Territory, is
heartened that what happened inMyanmar is now finally before
the world's highest court.
SPEAKER_08 (26:50):
Investigations underway in the International
Criminal Court.
I still know how many years it'sgoing to take.
But I certainly live in hopethat one day they will.
SPEAKER_03 (27:07):
Ilaria Charla shares that hope.
SPEAKER_04 (27:10):
I think uh, you know, we we're nothing without
hope.
And these people cannot turn totheir own jurisdiction, they
cannot seek remedies in theirown country.
So maybe yes, the UN is they'reonly open sometimes in some
cases.
I mean, and UN, you know, hasbeen there for a long time.
Uh is possibly the best thing wecame up with as an international
(27:30):
community.
I think it's important to havehope, you know.
Who are we as a human race if wedon't have hope?
SPEAKER_03 (27:37):
Hope and above all, determination to get justice is
what has inspired the women nowbravely testifying at the ICJ.
Women like Salma.
SPEAKER_07 (27:47):
I'll be sad again.
Our parents and grandparentshave become refugees three times
before us.
They did not know how to seekjustice because they were not
informed enough.
This time we will not returnwithout justice.
May we get our justice thistime.
SPEAKER_03 (28:03):
And that brings us to the end of this edition of
Inside Geneva.
I hope you were inspired as Iwas by the sheer courage of the
Rohingya women who have traveledto the International Court of
Justice and by the dedication ofthe lawyers and human rights
investigators supporting them.
(28:27):
Next time on Inside Geneva,we'll be looking at women in the
peace process.
Why are they so often left out?
Especially when the men seemnowadays at least to be so very
bad at resolving conflict.
SPEAKER_05 (28:42):
Women are completely absent in kind of high-level
politics at the moment, and thishigh-level peacemaking.
However, this is the visiblepart, and our kind of focus has
been so much on Trump.
I think he has really kind ofyou know taken the focus away
from all the other things thatare still happening.
(29:02):
So women are still working forpeace every day in different
conflict contexts.
SPEAKER_03 (29:07):
That's out on March 31st.
Do join us then.
Popular Podcasts
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com