January 13, 2026 • 31 mins
2026 has started with some momentous events. Israel has banned dozens of aid agencies. What are the consequences?
“We’re supporting one in five of the hospitals in the Gaza Strip, and one in three babies that are born in Gaza are assisted by our staff on the ground. We’re doing surgical support, wound care, physiotherapy, maternity and paediatric care,” says Chris Lockyear, Secretary General of Medecins sans Frontieres.
The US cut billions from foreign aid, then announced $2 billion for selected projects.
“[We saw] Tom Fletcher next to Jeremy Lewin, a 28-year-old with no experience in the humanitarian sector, who said, ‘Well, the humanitarian organisations have to adapt or die,’” adds Dorian Burkhalter, Swissinfo journalist.
The money has strings attached, humanitarian crises in Afghanistan or Yemen get nothing.
“There was talk about the radical ideologies perpetrated by some of the UN agencies, which had undermined American interests and peace, bizarrely enough,” continues Nick Cumming-Bruce, contributor for The New York Times.
Part of that $2 billion goes to several Latin American countries, meanwhile the US says it’s now “running” Venezuela.
“Central and South America, obviously Washington views as its domain. And we’re all here in Geneva muttering to ourselves ‘but you just violated international law’. Does it matter to anyone?” says Inside Geneva host Imogen Foulkes.
Are we seeing a bonfire of international laws?
“The fundamental commitments to some form of international law that have underpinned western security since the Second World War are being completely abandoned by an administration that doesn't acknowledge any accountability to anyone except itself,” says Cumming-Bruce.
And what does it mean for the world’s most vulnerable?
“All around the world, whether they’re in Gaza, in Sudan, in Ukraine or Venezuela, there are real people who are living through the consequences of these decisions that are made in places like Washington DC and New York or in Geneva,” says Lockyear.
Join host Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva.
Get in touch!
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_08 (00:06):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
SPEAKER_15 (00:19):
In today's program, an Israeli ban on dozens of
international aid organizationsoperating in Gaza comes into
force on Thursday.
SPEAKER_05 (00:27):
We're supporting one in five of the hospitals in the
Gaza Strip, and one in threebabies that are born in Gaza are
assisted by our staff on theground.
We're doing surgical support,wound care, physiotherapy,
maternity and pediatric care.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
The Pinky Bank is not open to organizations that
would just want to return to theold system.
President Trump has made clearthat system is dead, gone.
SPEAKER_06 (01:08):
There was talk about the radical ideologies
perpetrated by some of the UNagencies, which had undermined
American interests and peace,bizarrely enough.
SPEAKER_16 (01:18):
The breaking news this morning
says the U.S.
carried out large-scale strikeson Venezuela overnight.
He says its president, NicolasMaduro and his wife, Celia
Flores, have been captured andflown out of the country.
SPEAKER_08 (01:31):
Central and South America.
Obviously, Washington views asits domain.
And we're all here in Genevamuttering to ourselves, but you
just violated international law.
Does it matter to anyone?
SPEAKER_12 (01:44):
President Trump already announcing Venezuela
will turn over 30 to 50 millionbarrels of sanctioned oil.
Trump saying that money will becontrolled by me.
SPEAKER_06 (01:52):
The fundamental commitments to some form of
international law that haveunderpinned Western security
since World War II are beingcompletely abandoned by an
administration that doesn'tacknowledge any accountability
to anyone except itself.
SPEAKER_08 (02:15):
Normally we're out every two weeks.
But myself and the colleagues Ihave here, we were feeling a
little bit a bit guilty becausewe chose our stories of the year
for 2025 and predicted theywould be stories in 2026 as
well.
And my goodness, a week is along time in journalism as well
(02:38):
as in politics.
Or there's an old saying which Ithink was a former British Prime
Minister, Harold Macmillan, heused to say, events, dear boy,
events, and events haveovertaken us.
A lot of things happeningbetween Christmas and round
about the start of 2026, and anumber of them are very, very
relevant to what we report onhere in Geneva and on the
(03:02):
podcast.
So two of my partners in crimefrom the last uh podcast, Nick
Cumming Bruce, contributor tothe New York Times, and Dorian
Borkhelter of SwissInfo.
And we've got Chris Lockier, uhSecretary General of Med Sans
Frontier.
And we're going to talk aboutsome of these events.
I'm sure some of you are alreadyguessing what some of them are.
(03:24):
The one I want to start withfirst is the announcement on New
Year's Eve in the last hours of2025 that Israel was banning
dozens of international aidagencies.
SPEAKER_14 (03:41):
And Israel says it's suspending 37 humanitarian
organizations from working inthe Gaza Strip starting January
1st.
Israel's Ministry of Data SuperAffairs says the affecting NGOs,
including Doctors WithoutBorders, and Oxman, have, quote,
failed to meet required securityand transparency standards.
SPEAKER_09 (03:57):
Unrelenting rain, flooding, mud-caking makeshift
tents.
After two years of intensetrauma and widespread death,
more hardship could be aroundthe corner than these
Palestinian Israel hasn't.
SPEAKER_08 (04:10):
And we know that Gaza is a huge humanitarian
crisis, still, despite theceasefire.
We hear this over and overagain.
Chris, Doctors Without Bordersis one of those organizations.
What happened?
SPEAKER_05 (04:23):
Well, we we, as you say, we got the um the letter on
uh just before uh just beforethe turn of the the year.
We we knew that our currentregistration was valid up until
the end of the year, and we'vebeen trying to comply with the
the process which the Israeligovernment have put in place um
to re-register NGOs who areworking not just in Gaza um but
(04:45):
also uh in the West Bank and uhand East Jerusalem as well.
And we got a letter essentiallysaying that um our application
was sort of pending, um, thatthere were elements um missing
to that, and maybe that's apoint that we'll pick up on, um,
and that um effectively we had60 days to wrap up our
operations in in Gaza andPalestine more broadly.
SPEAKER_08 (05:06):
Why do you tell our listeners what you actually do
in Gaza before we get to whatthe problem Israel thinks it
has?
SPEAKER_05 (05:15):
We're supporting one in five of the hospitals in the
Gaza Strip, and one in threebabies that are born in Gaza are
assisted by our um by our staffon the ground.
We have in Gaza itself, we haveover 1,100 staff members.
Um, we're we're doing surgicalsupport, wound care,
physiotherapy, maternity andpediatric care, general health
care, maternal health service,mental health services, as well
(05:37):
as water distribution in thelast three weeks of November.
As uh our access to Gaza Cityincreased and opened up, we we
delivered 14 million litres ofwater in that period of time as
well.
And this is just the MSFperspective, of course.
There's dozens of otherorganizations that are in a
similar situation.
And if you look at it throughthat lens, obviously those
(05:58):
numbers go up in proportion.
There's 60% of Gaza's hospitalsare run with or with the support
of international NGOs.
So it is a huge, huge impactthat this uh this banning of
NGOs will have in uh 60-day timeif that decision is not
reversed.
SPEAKER_08 (06:13):
So why is this being done?
SPEAKER_05 (06:15):
Well, I mean I mean I think that we have seen
throughout the course of thiswar a systematic um restriction,
uh suffocation of humanitarianassistance uh going into the the
the Gaza Strip.
We've seen a refutingessentially of the ICGA rulings
or that there must be unimpededhumanitarian assistance coming
(06:38):
into uh into Gaza.
You mentioned the ceasefire, butI mean it's there are people
being killed by Israeli forcesvery frequently now, despite the
the the ceasefire.
And so it can seem to be part ofan overall attempt to restrict
um access to Palestinians oflife-saving and essential basic
um services.
SPEAKER_08 (06:57):
Nick, uh Doria, I I I'd like to hear questions from
you as journalists for Chrisabout this, because the
headlines I've been seeing isthe aid agencies should share
details of their staff.
Is that what you've been seeing?
SPEAKER_04 (07:09):
Yeah, that's that's what I've been hearing as well.
And I think my understanding isuh that they are not really
willing to give those detailsfor security reasons, and I
think understandably so, knowingthat hundreds of humanitarian
workers have been killed inGaza, most of them from UNRWA.
SPEAKER_08 (07:26):
Yeah, I think it's more than 200 actually.
SPEAKER_06 (07:28):
570 something.
SPEAKER_04 (07:30):
And and I think 400 of those are UNRWA stuff, if I'm
not mistaken.
But yeah, I mean this isactually also what I'd like to
hear from MSF is um exactly, youknow, what where are the Israeli
authorities asking for, and whyis that a problem?
You know, why is that info sosensitive?
SPEAKER_08 (07:48):
Yeah, because I think Nick, certainly I don't
know about your readers, butcertainly my listeners and
viewers, I mean, and a lot of myfriends and family will say, so
what's the problem with that?
Just let the Israelis know who'swho you're working with.
SPEAKER_06 (08:00):
Well, I think I mean there are obvious reasons why
that's a problem, um, given thepotential for having
confidential information aboutyour staff being shared with
intelligence agencies would beone major concern.
But I mean, basically this seemsto me to really just underscore
the fragility of the of thewhole ceasefire process.
I mean, we're three months intothis process now.
(08:20):
Um, there's supposed to be aboard led by President Trump
managing Gaza.
There's supposed to be aninternational security force
which is being deployed.
We know nothing about that.
The rationale for theserequirements imposed on on aid
agencies is to prevent thesiphoning off of aid by Hamas.
(08:41):
Hamas, I thought the whole pointwas that Hamas isn't going to
exist as a significantenterprise in in Gaza with the
peace process.
So it doesn't all add up at all.
And what we have seenessentially is that aid is being
drip-fed into Gaza.
There's more now than there wasin October the 10th, but um it's
(09:03):
still well below requirements.
And the question then is, youknow, how long are they going to
play this out?
And what is the end game?
SPEAKER_08 (09:10):
So, Chris, let me put some of those points to you
as well.
First of all, your averageperson on the street would say,
why don't you share details withthe authorities?
Let me ask you also, is thiscommon for governments to say we
want every single detail ofevery worker you have?
And also maybe you still havestaff in Gaza.
(09:31):
How is the your assessment ofthe humanitarian situation right
now?
SPEAKER_05 (09:35):
Well, um the first thing I'd say is that we've been
engaging with the Israeliauthorities about this
registration process um since itcame to light that there was
going to be a change.
And we still are, and we arestill uh hoping that there's a
change in this um in thisdecision, and we're discussing
on on all of the points thatthey're putting to us.
I think the important point herein terms of the the context is
(09:57):
that there have been over 500 uhaid workers killed.
We've had 15 of our staffkilled.
There's been several accusationstowards our staff, and in in
none of these cases has anyevidence been put forward to us.
And at the same time, we're alsolooking at accountability
towards the fact that that ourstaff have been killed, and it's
(10:17):
not just our staff, but tens ofthousands of Palestinians have
been killed.
And so there's a massivequestion of accountability, but
also safety of our staff here.
How is this data going to beused?
How is this information going tobe used?
Um, I think it is absolutelyright for us as an employer to
look at the safety of our stafffirst and foremost, and we'll
say that in any context, andwe're not getting answers to
(10:40):
those questions.
And this is key and fundamentalto us.
And I think the burden hereshould not be on the people who
are trying to provide medicalassistance and talking about
what's happening, but the factthat there have been tens of
thousands of people killed bythe Israeli military in in Gaza.
And and so we're still willingto talk, we will continue to
(11:01):
talk, but our staff have beenfacing, along with the rest of
the population of Gaza, the mosthorrendous situation.
And our primary responsibilityhere is to try and ensure that
their safety is maximized asmuch as possible, because we're
never going to claim that we cancall Gaza safe still, even after
there is a something of aceasefire in place.
SPEAKER_06 (11:23):
Three months into this ceasefire, though.
I mean, how much do you have nowand do your medical staff have
access to all the medicalresources that they need to
provide treatment?
Do they get all the drugs theyneed a few weeks ago?
There were complaints from somehospitals that they didn't even
have enough gauze.
There was still a huge concernabout dual use equipment and the
(11:44):
ability to provide proper sortof scans and so forth.
How much has that improved inthe in in recent weeks?
SPEAKER_05 (11:50):
It sort of goes up and down.
So there are times, um there wasa time a few weeks ago, as you
say, where even gauze again wasin short supply.
It is extremely complicated andunpredictable to get items that
are dual use, as you say,particularly sort of strategic
items.
So it's it's often verycomplicated to, or it's been
impossible to um bring inautoclays for sterilizing
(12:13):
surgical equipment, sometimesexternal fixators to uh support
limbs as uh they've beenfractured and to heel.
Anything like that, it's at bestincredibly unpredictable and
often just um completely barredfrom access.
So it's still trying to providehumanitarian assistance on
something of a patchwork ofsupply, an unpredictable
(12:35):
patchwork of supply.
So unpredictability is one ofthe big problems, then it's just
it's it's kind of whimsical.
Unpredictability is absolutelyone of the big problems.
I don't know whether it'swhimsical or whether it's
strategic.
I mean it's uh that's that'svery hard for us to be able to
judge.
But the unpredictability ofsupply, but also, as we're now
seeing, the unpredictability ofour our registration and our
(12:56):
legitimacy to be in in Gaza fromthat point of view as well.
SPEAKER_08 (12:59):
Aaron Powell So you've got 60 days and and then
we will see, and you're still innegotiation, and I know that I
mean the first time I heardabout this was was getting on
for six months ago.
And I think as far as I know,you and other aid agencies have
been trying, as you said, quitehard to find some accommodation
and to to keep the Israeliauthorities happy while not
(13:20):
compromising your principles.
I want to move on to the nextbig story that happened between
Christmas and New Year.
Um, and it relates, Dorian, toyour story of the year of 2025,
which was cuts to humanitarianaid, very relevant to you as
well, of course, Chris.
We had an announcement on the29th, very sudden announcement,
(13:42):
because I was telephoned at homehoping to enjoy my holidays by
the US diplomats saying, Oh, youhave to come to this.
There's a big announcement.
SPEAKER_13 (13:50):
This week, the US pledged$2 billion in
humanitarian aid to the UnitedNations as part of a deal that
will also overhaul how the USfunds foreign aid work going
forward.
SPEAKER_17 (14:01):
The US has announced a$2 billion pledge for UN
humanitarian aid.
Tell us what they announced.
SPEAKER_04 (14:09):
Yes, no, exactly.
So on the 29th of December, theUS administration sent to Geneva
Jeremy Lewin, his call, workingfor the State Department.
SPEAKER_08 (14:20):
Relatively new addition to the humanitarian aid
community, I understand.
SPEAKER_04 (14:24):
I believe he was hired by the uh Doja Right.
SPEAKER_08 (14:28):
He worked for Elon Musk to dismantle USAID.
SPEAKER_04 (14:31):
Exactly, yeah.
So he was sent to Geneva toannounce together with the UN
relief chief Dom Fletcher thatthe US would be given 2 billion
US dollars next year to OCHA tofund basically 17 humanitarian
crises across the world.
But this is, I mean, a really Imean two billion isn't nothing.
SPEAKER_08 (14:52):
How does it compare to what they cut though?
SPEAKER_04 (14:55):
So back in the in the day, so in 2024, before
Donald Trump came, the US wasfunding about 40% of OCA's uh
appeals.
So that means it was about 11billion, I think.
And then last year it dropped toa little over three billion, and
now two billion.
So it's a significant dropcompared to the previous
(15:19):
administration.
SPEAKER_08 (15:20):
Nick, you were at the announcement, this guy
Jeremy Lewin, side by side withthe UN emergency relief chief
Tom Fletcher.
What was the the vibe you got?
Was it celebratory?
I mean the UN UN aid agenciesare desperate for cash.
SPEAKER_06 (15:36):
Well, I think that was a big part of the of the
occasion, really.
Um Tom Fletcher was obviouslydelighted to have two billion
dollars, arguably, at hisdisposal at the point when he's
asking other countries tosubscribe to the global
humanitarian appeal.
It was useful for him to have anAmerican contribution of funding
(15:57):
at that point.
And so he was all gratitude.
And I think it was clear thatthe Global Humanitarian Appeal,
which had emphasized the needfor reform in the delivery of
humanitarian assistance, hadbeen framed to some extent to
reflect the conversations he'dbeen having over many weeks with
the Trump administration.
The trouble with all this is itcame with some language that
(16:20):
would be concerning to anybodywho's interested in sort of
neutral, impartial delivery ofhumanitarian assistance.
There was talk about the radicalideologies perpetrated by some
of the UN agencies which hadundermined American interests
and peace, bizarrely enough.
And then there is also the factthat there's still huge
(16:42):
uncertainty about how this isgoing to work.
It's not as if there's twobillion dollars sitting in a
central fund which is going tobe distributed at the discretion
of Tom Fletcher and the UN.
It's money that's going to goout to 17 different country
operations.
These are supposed to begoverned by memoranda of
understanding, which none ofwhich have been concluded.
(17:03):
So we don't know how this isreally going to work.
And it's money that's going tobe distributed through resident
coordinators in the country.
And so there's a great questionmark over how that money is
going to be coordinated withfunding given bilaterally by
other donors to aid agencies.
And so, yeah, a lot of bigquestion marks about that.
(17:24):
And I think one of the otherconcerns also is that the UN
reform process talks a lot aboutputting much more aid through
local organizations, which inprinciple has a lot of merit.
They're relatively low cost, andso you're avoiding a lot of the
overheads that come with UNagencies and UN administration.
(17:45):
But at the same time, thesesmall organizations don't have
the ability to sort of scale upin quick order to deal with the
immensity of the crises thatwe're dealing with in places
like Sudan.
That really does fall oninternational aid agencies that
have global reach and haveglobal resources.
And they've been slightly leftout of the picture, and we're
(18:05):
not quite clear where what partthey're going to play and how
they're going to be funded ingoing forward.
SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
I think also just the whole image.
So I mean I wasn't at the eventitself, but I saw the photos and
the fact that this event tookplace at the US mission.
SPEAKER_08 (18:18):
Not at the UN, that's right.
SPEAKER_04 (18:20):
Not at the UN, seeing, you know, Tom Fletcher
next to uh Jeremy Lewin.
So this very young, 28-year-oldguy who never worked in the
humanitarian sector, you know,say, well, the humanitarian
organizations have to adapt ordie, I think, who has a quote,
right?
From what his he does.
SPEAKER_08 (18:36):
Yes.
He, Jeremy Lewin, as you said,during aged 28, said to the
assembled UNAID agencies who areall watching this, adapt or die.
Chris, how does that make youfeel?
SPEAKER_05 (18:49):
I'm old.
I'm not 28 anymore.
Even if I'd like to believe thatI am.
So I think just to give contextin terms of how I'm coming at
this, so first thing to say isthat from so from an MSF point
of view, we're very fortunate tobe privately funded.
Very, very little, less than 2%of our funding comes from
(19:10):
government sources.
And that means that we can stillbe on the ground in an
independent, in an impartial, inan impartial way.
But we are seeing the impact ofaid cuts around the world.
We're seeing rates of admissionsfor nutrition programs in
Ethiopia and Somalia going up.
We're seeing health centersclosed in in Afghanistan.
And this is as a consequence ofaid funding across the board.
(19:32):
The US is clearly the mostconsequential actor in this, but
there are many other governmentswho have done the same.
And so the impact is very realand we can see it.
And it is we're seeing morepatients come to our clinics as
a as a result of it.
Now, I share, I think, the sameconcerns as as UNIC when it
comes to what does this mean interms of the distribution, the
prioritization, and theallocation of not just the money
(19:54):
and the resources, but thepeople and the expertise that
comes behind it.
And it does leave manyquestions.
To be asked in terms of the aidresponse globally.
You know, in principle, I wouldbe very in favour of OCA taking
a role of ensuring there is thatflexible funding to scale up
responses at a global level andat a local level.
(20:15):
But that has to be based on theneeds that are in front of the
humanitarians who are there,based on who is in most acute
need, whether that's within acountry like South Sudan or
Sudan or DRC, or whether that'sglobally.
And I think clearly some of thestatements that came with this
announcement were that it wouldbe in line with uh US foreign
(20:35):
policy interests, for example.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_08 (20:37):
And domestic policy interests, they actually said,
which even from thisadministration took me aback.
SPEAKER_05 (20:43):
And so that that leaves me with questions then in
terms of the extent to whichthat is possible or to which
that is constrained in terms ofprioritized countries or
deprioritized countries, butalso thematics as well.
What about when it comes towomen and child health care?
What about when in looking atLGBTQ communities around the
world?
(21:05):
But this is what we mean whenwe're talking about neutral
impartial um provision ofhumanitarian assistance, is
getting to the people who aremost vulnerable.
That is the key thing, and wherewe we we need to spend most of
our resources.
SPEAKER_06 (21:17):
And I mean the the the list of 17 countries was
also in its in a senseproblematic.
It includes Central Americancountries that are not at the
top of anybody's humanitariancrisis list.
SPEAKER_08 (21:28):
El Salvador is on there, I think.
SPEAKER_06 (21:29):
Guatemala, Guatemala and Honduras.
And it it conspicuously leftout, and Lewin was quite uh
explicit on this point thatthere was going to be no money
from America for Afghanistan,which has a huge hunger crisis
at the moment.
Huge crisis for health, forwomen and children, and none for
Yemen.
(21:50):
So yeah, that's that list ofcountries reflects very much uh
some American priorities.
SPEAKER_08 (21:56):
So so we're moving into a thing that which it was
always there under the surfacethat traditional donors
sometimes did say, well, wequite favor that particular
region.
But it's this is really blatantnow.
It's absolutely clear.
And since you mentioned thatLatin American countries are on
there, time to go to our thirdand final topic.
(22:21):
But first, a quick break, wherewe'll hear about a podcast from
our colleagues at ForeignPolicy.
SPEAKER_07 (22:26):
Hello, I'm Femi OK, and I'm the new host of The
Negotiators, the show that drawsback the curtain on some of the
most compelling negotiationsaround the world.
This season, we're taking ascuba diving in the Red Sea,
walking the grounds of a luxuryresort in Uganda, and even
aboard an aging oil tankerfloating off the coast of Yemen.
SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
We were constantly monitored by drones overhead,
divers under the vessel, so itwas not exactly a high trust
operation.
SPEAKER_07 (22:53):
That's the negotiators, available now,
wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome back, everyone.
SPEAKER_08 (22:58):
Now for our third and final big event that
interrupted the holiday period.
No surprises.
It's Venezuela.
SPEAKER_11 (23:08):
Overnight, Venezuelan president Nicolas
Maduro and his wife touchingdown on U.S.
soil, surrounded by federalagents.
Nios of leader handcuffed on thetarmac in New York, just hours
after being captured and removedby American forces.
SPEAKER_10 (23:21):
This was not an invasion.
We didn't occupy a country.
This was an arrest operation.
This was a law enforcementoperation.
He was arrested on the ground inVenezuela by FBI agents, read
his rights, and removed from thecountry.
Obviously, this was not afriendly territory.
So in order to arrest him, wehad to ask the Department of War
to become involved in thisoperation.
SPEAKER_01 (23:39):
We're going to have our very large United States oil
companies, the biggest anywherein the world, go in.
SPEAKER_03 (23:48):
As the High Commissioner has said, this
operation violates a fundamentalprinciple of international law.
It violates the UN Charter.
SPEAKER_08 (23:54):
It is relevant to us.
The US is very interested in theWestern Hemisphere.
It's made it absolutely clear,Uncle Sam's backyard.
I first heard that when I was ateenager.
It's back.
That Central and South America,obviously, Washington views as
its domain.
And we're all here in Genevamuttering to ourselves, but you
(24:16):
just violated international law.
You and Human Rights said thatthis morning, Dorian and Nick, I
think you were both both therewhen UN Human Rights put that
said that.
Does it matter to anyone?
SPEAKER_06 (24:27):
Well, yes, it matters deeply.
It's kind of ironic that, youknow, they should be invoking
the Munro Doctrine, which wasformulated initially, you know,
as a as a barrier againstWestern imperialism and
colonialism in the LatinAmerican continent.
Whereas what we're seeing hereis a doctrine, the Dunro
Doctrine, which seems to be kindof imperial in essence.
(24:48):
And it's concerning for allsorts of reasons.
I mean, it's concerning in thecontext specifically of
Venezuela, because there's solittle coherence so far from the
administration about theirobjectives.
Trump says he's running it andthat they're going to stay in
the country and run it for along time.
Secretary Rudio, who's a keyplayer in this, has given out a
(25:09):
very different kind of note onthat.
But I I mean it it's deeplyconcerning for all the reasons
that were laid out this morningby uh the UN Human Rights
Office, which is that itundermines the principles of
territorial sovereignty and theUN Charter.
And it's concerning becausequite clear that this strategy
doesn't stop, it's strategy isperhaps too flattering a term,
(25:31):
but you know, these instinctsdon't stop with Venezuela.
Uh Trump has talked aboutColombia, he's talked about
Mexico, he's talked about Iran,we've seen him bombing Nigeria.
And of course, particularly now,they're talking about Greenland,
a NATO country.
So what we're seeing is, Ithink, in some ways, an
inflection point, you know,where the the the fundamental
(25:52):
commitments to some form ofinternational law that have
underpinned Western securitysince World War II are being
completely abandoned by anadministration that doesn't
acknowledge any accountabilityto anyone except itself.
SPEAKER_04 (26:04):
And I think, if I may, what is also worrying about
this is the, I mean, European, Ithink, in particular, reaction
to this.
So it's been really timid to saythe least.
I think only Spain has takenreally a strong stand to condemn
this action.
So if, you know, Europeancountries which traditionally
(26:24):
sort of are at least want to bethe voice of international law,
even though it's been alsoeroded a little bit in the last
years with their stand on Gaza.
But I mean, then it weakens theentire architecture of uh
international law.
And it's I guess for Europeancountries that also see Russia's
action in Ukraine and that seeTrump with Finland.
(26:46):
I guess it just makes them lesssafe, as also highlighted the UN
Human Rights Office.
SPEAKER_06 (26:51):
If you're not sure, yeah, I think it I I mean the
spokeswoman's comment that it iteverybody is less safe as a
result of this is is the bottomline.
Um, it kind of green lights theoperations that people like
Vladimir Putin have undertakenin Ukraine and potentially China
would undertake in Taiwan.
I mean, I think these are theanalogies that everybody is
drawing.
And you will have to say alsothat it it should be of real
(27:14):
concern to Americans who may notbe interested in foreign policy,
because what we are also seeingis an administration that is
completely ignoring the kind ofconstitutional checks and
balances that have underpinnedUS democracy.
And so in this operation, theTrump administration has
completely ignored Congress andseems to basically be pursuing
(27:36):
its its own agenda withoutreally any regard to the
legalities that it faces at homeor abroad.
SPEAKER_08 (27:43):
What a lot of people perhaps watching this, people
who don't work in Geneva,perhaps don't realize is that
people in Venezuela have beensuffering for a long time, and
not just because they've had arepressive government, but
humanitarian issues.
They are short of power, shortof food.
Eight million have fled, and notactually Hello Donald to the
(28:04):
United States.
They fled primarily to Colombia,which has been quite generous in
looking after them.
So I'm going to bring you in,Chris, maybe just almost for the
the final word.
When you see this as as along-standing humanitarian work,
I mean does your heart sink?
Because I'm just thinking, herewe go again.
Somebody sitting in a in agovernment office in a nice
(28:27):
gilded oval office might think,yeah, job done.
But for you guys, probably thework is just beginning.
SPEAKER_05 (28:33):
Well, I think there's there's a question of
what does this mean from uh alegal point of view.
But I think the the project, theissue in front of us is bigger
than a legal issue.
You know, there is the questionof violation of Article 4.2.
There is also the question ofnon-adherence to ICJ rulings to
bring in uh unimpededhumanitarian assistance to Gaza.
(28:53):
There's the question ofdeclarations for the protection
of humanitarian workers, and atthe same time, we're seeing them
being killed in droves.
And so there is a real questionhere in terms of accountability,
in terms of mutualaccountability and individual
responsibility when it comes toupholding norms and also
ensuring that it is uh peopleare willing to not just call out
(29:15):
their their enemies but call outtheir allies as as well.
And unless we get to that levelof accountability on all of
these things, then we're goingto see a degradation on in terms
of these norms, but moreimportantly, to the individuals
all around the world, whetherthat is in Gaza, in Sudan, in
Ukraine, or Venezuela, there arereal people who are living
through the consequences ofthese decisions that are made in
(29:38):
places like Washington, DC, inNew York, in Geneva.
And there's also a lot, a hugeamount of speculation about who
wanted this action, who didn'twant this action.
I have a close uh Venezuelanfriend who wrote this um just
yesterday saying, we neverwanted this, not this way.
We wanted to do it our way likewe always have, but we will take
it and keep going because thisis not over.
(29:59):
Not until we can dance in ourstreets instead of yours.
This is our journey, no oneelse's.
We all know it, everyone exceptthose who know nothing about the
place where I come from.
SPEAKER_08 (30:10):
Good point.
SPEAKER_05 (30:11):
So if there's there's an intersection of
international norms and anindividual's raw emotion, I
don't think it comes clearerthan that.
SPEAKER_08 (30:18):
That is the definition, I suppose, of
sovereignty, but also thedefinition of you don't just go
in and grab a country that youdon't know that much about.
Well, we hope, I guess, that atsome point we will see
Venezuelans having their ownelections, free and fair, and
dancing in the street because ofthat.
(30:40):
In the meantime, unfortunately,uh, Dorian, I think your point
was right.
At the moment, we are all lesssafe than the last time we sat
in this studio.
Let's hope that 2026 can only goupwards from now on, fingers
crossed.
Chris Locke here, Nick ComingBruce, Dorian Burke Halter.
Thank you very much, and that'sit for this special edition of
(31:03):
Inside Geneva.
A reminder, you've beenlistening to Inside Geneva, a
Swiss info production.
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
(31:25):
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
I'm Imogen folks.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
SPEAKER_15 (00:19):
In today's program, an Israeli ban on dozens of
international aid organizationsoperating in Gaza comes into
force on Thursday.
SPEAKER_05 (00:27):
We're supporting one in five of the hospitals in the
Gaza Strip, and one in threebabies that are born in Gaza are
assisted by our staff on theground.
We're doing surgical support,wound care, physiotherapy,
maternity and pediatric care.
SPEAKER_00 (01:01):
The Pinky Bank is not open to organizations that
would just want to return to theold system.
President Trump has made clearthat system is dead, gone.
SPEAKER_06 (01:08):
There was talk about the radical ideologies
perpetrated by some of the UNagencies, which had undermined
American interests and peace,bizarrely enough.
SPEAKER_16 (01:18):
The breaking news this morning
says the U.S.
carried out large-scale strikeson Venezuela overnight.
He says its president, NicolasMaduro and his wife, Celia
Flores, have been captured andflown out of the country.
SPEAKER_08 (01:31):
Central and South America.
Obviously, Washington views asits domain.
And we're all here in Genevamuttering to ourselves, but you
just violated international law.
Does it matter to anyone?
SPEAKER_12 (01:44):
President Trump already announcing Venezuela
will turn over 30 to 50 millionbarrels of sanctioned oil.
Trump saying that money will becontrolled by me.
SPEAKER_06 (01:52):
The fundamental commitments to some form of
international law that haveunderpinned Western security
since World War II are beingcompletely abandoned by an
administration that doesn'tacknowledge any accountability
to anyone except itself.
SPEAKER_08 (02:15):
Normally we're out every two weeks.
But myself and the colleagues Ihave here, we were feeling a
little bit a bit guilty becausewe chose our stories of the year
for 2025 and predicted theywould be stories in 2026 as
well.
And my goodness, a week is along time in journalism as well
(02:38):
as in politics.
Or there's an old saying which Ithink was a former British Prime
Minister, Harold Macmillan, heused to say, events, dear boy,
events, and events haveovertaken us.
A lot of things happeningbetween Christmas and round
about the start of 2026, and anumber of them are very, very
relevant to what we report onhere in Geneva and on the
(03:02):
podcast.
So two of my partners in crimefrom the last uh podcast, Nick
Cumming Bruce, contributor tothe New York Times, and Dorian
Borkhelter of SwissInfo.
And we've got Chris Lockier, uhSecretary General of Med Sans
Frontier.
And we're going to talk aboutsome of these events.
I'm sure some of you are alreadyguessing what some of them are.
(03:24):
The one I want to start withfirst is the announcement on New
Year's Eve in the last hours of2025 that Israel was banning
dozens of international aidagencies.
SPEAKER_14 (03:41):
And Israel says it's suspending 37 humanitarian
organizations from working inthe Gaza Strip starting January
1st.
Israel's Ministry of Data SuperAffairs says the affecting NGOs,
including Doctors WithoutBorders, and Oxman, have, quote,
failed to meet required securityand transparency standards.
SPEAKER_09 (03:57):
Unrelenting rain, flooding, mud-caking makeshift
tents.
After two years of intensetrauma and widespread death,
more hardship could be aroundthe corner than these
Palestinian Israel hasn't.
SPEAKER_08 (04:10):
And we know that Gaza is a huge humanitarian
crisis, still, despite theceasefire.
We hear this over and overagain.
Chris, Doctors Without Bordersis one of those organizations.
What happened?
SPEAKER_05 (04:23):
Well, we we, as you say, we got the um the letter on
uh just before uh just beforethe turn of the the year.
We we knew that our currentregistration was valid up until
the end of the year, and we'vebeen trying to comply with the
the process which the Israeligovernment have put in place um
to re-register NGOs who areworking not just in Gaza um but
(04:45):
also uh in the West Bank and uhand East Jerusalem as well.
And we got a letter essentiallysaying that um our application
was sort of pending, um, thatthere were elements um missing
to that, and maybe that's apoint that we'll pick up on, um,
and that um effectively we had60 days to wrap up our
operations in in Gaza andPalestine more broadly.
SPEAKER_08 (05:06):
Why do you tell our listeners what you actually do
in Gaza before we get to whatthe problem Israel thinks it
has?
SPEAKER_05 (05:15):
We're supporting one in five of the hospitals in the
Gaza Strip, and one in threebabies that are born in Gaza are
assisted by our um by our staffon the ground.
We have in Gaza itself, we haveover 1,100 staff members.
Um, we're we're doing surgicalsupport, wound care,
physiotherapy, maternity andpediatric care, general health
care, maternal health service,mental health services, as well
(05:37):
as water distribution in thelast three weeks of November.
As uh our access to Gaza Cityincreased and opened up, we we
delivered 14 million litres ofwater in that period of time as
well.
And this is just the MSFperspective, of course.
There's dozens of otherorganizations that are in a
similar situation.
And if you look at it throughthat lens, obviously those
(05:58):
numbers go up in proportion.
There's 60% of Gaza's hospitalsare run with or with the support
of international NGOs.
So it is a huge, huge impactthat this uh this banning of
NGOs will have in uh 60-day timeif that decision is not
reversed.
SPEAKER_08 (06:13):
So why is this being done?
SPEAKER_05 (06:15):
Well, I mean I mean I think that we have seen
throughout the course of thiswar a systematic um restriction,
uh suffocation of humanitarianassistance uh going into the the
the Gaza Strip.
We've seen a refutingessentially of the ICGA rulings
or that there must be unimpededhumanitarian assistance coming
(06:38):
into uh into Gaza.
You mentioned the ceasefire, butI mean it's there are people
being killed by Israeli forcesvery frequently now, despite the
the the ceasefire.
And so it can seem to be part ofan overall attempt to restrict
um access to Palestinians oflife-saving and essential basic
um services.
SPEAKER_08 (06:57):
Nick, uh Doria, I I I'd like to hear questions from
you as journalists for Chrisabout this, because the
headlines I've been seeing isthe aid agencies should share
details of their staff.
Is that what you've been seeing?
SPEAKER_04 (07:09):
Yeah, that's that's what I've been hearing as well.
And I think my understanding isuh that they are not really
willing to give those detailsfor security reasons, and I
think understandably so, knowingthat hundreds of humanitarian
workers have been killed inGaza, most of them from UNRWA.
SPEAKER_08 (07:26):
Yeah, I think it's more than 200 actually.
SPEAKER_06 (07:28):
570 something.
SPEAKER_04 (07:30):
And and I think 400 of those are UNRWA stuff, if I'm
not mistaken.
But yeah, I mean this isactually also what I'd like to
hear from MSF is um exactly, youknow, what where are the Israeli
authorities asking for, and whyis that a problem?
You know, why is that info sosensitive?
SPEAKER_08 (07:48):
Yeah, because I think Nick, certainly I don't
know about your readers, butcertainly my listeners and
viewers, I mean, and a lot of myfriends and family will say, so
what's the problem with that?
Just let the Israelis know who'swho you're working with.
SPEAKER_06 (08:00):
Well, I think I mean there are obvious reasons why
that's a problem, um, given thepotential for having
confidential information aboutyour staff being shared with
intelligence agencies would beone major concern.
But I mean, basically this seemsto me to really just underscore
the fragility of the of thewhole ceasefire process.
I mean, we're three months intothis process now.
(08:20):
Um, there's supposed to be aboard led by President Trump
managing Gaza.
There's supposed to be aninternational security force
which is being deployed.
We know nothing about that.
The rationale for theserequirements imposed on on aid
agencies is to prevent thesiphoning off of aid by Hamas.
(08:41):
Hamas, I thought the whole pointwas that Hamas isn't going to
exist as a significantenterprise in in Gaza with the
peace process.
So it doesn't all add up at all.
And what we have seenessentially is that aid is being
drip-fed into Gaza.
There's more now than there wasin October the 10th, but um it's
(09:03):
still well below requirements.
And the question then is, youknow, how long are they going to
play this out?
And what is the end game?
SPEAKER_08 (09:10):
So, Chris, let me put some of those points to you
as well.
First of all, your averageperson on the street would say,
why don't you share details withthe authorities?
Let me ask you also, is thiscommon for governments to say we
want every single detail ofevery worker you have?
And also maybe you still havestaff in Gaza.
(09:31):
How is the your assessment ofthe humanitarian situation right
now?
SPEAKER_05 (09:35):
Well, um the first thing I'd say is that we've been
engaging with the Israeliauthorities about this
registration process um since itcame to light that there was
going to be a change.
And we still are, and we arestill uh hoping that there's a
change in this um in thisdecision, and we're discussing
on on all of the points thatthey're putting to us.
I think the important point herein terms of the the context is
(09:57):
that there have been over 500 uhaid workers killed.
We've had 15 of our staffkilled.
There's been several accusationstowards our staff, and in in
none of these cases has anyevidence been put forward to us.
And at the same time, we're alsolooking at accountability
towards the fact that that ourstaff have been killed, and it's
(10:17):
not just our staff, but tens ofthousands of Palestinians have
been killed.
And so there's a massivequestion of accountability, but
also safety of our staff here.
How is this data going to beused?
How is this information going tobe used?
Um, I think it is absolutelyright for us as an employer to
look at the safety of our stafffirst and foremost, and we'll
say that in any context, andwe're not getting answers to
(10:40):
those questions.
And this is key and fundamentalto us.
And I think the burden hereshould not be on the people who
are trying to provide medicalassistance and talking about
what's happening, but the factthat there have been tens of
thousands of people killed bythe Israeli military in in Gaza.
And and so we're still willingto talk, we will continue to
(11:01):
talk, but our staff have beenfacing, along with the rest of
the population of Gaza, the mosthorrendous situation.
And our primary responsibilityhere is to try and ensure that
their safety is maximized asmuch as possible, because we're
never going to claim that we cancall Gaza safe still, even after
there is a something of aceasefire in place.
SPEAKER_06 (11:23):
Three months into this ceasefire, though.
I mean, how much do you have nowand do your medical staff have
access to all the medicalresources that they need to
provide treatment?
Do they get all the drugs theyneed a few weeks ago?
There were complaints from somehospitals that they didn't even
have enough gauze.
There was still a huge concernabout dual use equipment and the
(11:44):
ability to provide proper sortof scans and so forth.
How much has that improved inthe in in recent weeks?
SPEAKER_05 (11:50):
It sort of goes up and down.
So there are times, um there wasa time a few weeks ago, as you
say, where even gauze again wasin short supply.
It is extremely complicated andunpredictable to get items that
are dual use, as you say,particularly sort of strategic
items.
So it's it's often verycomplicated to, or it's been
impossible to um bring inautoclays for sterilizing
(12:13):
surgical equipment, sometimesexternal fixators to uh support
limbs as uh they've beenfractured and to heel.
Anything like that, it's at bestincredibly unpredictable and
often just um completely barredfrom access.
So it's still trying to providehumanitarian assistance on
something of a patchwork ofsupply, an unpredictable
(12:35):
patchwork of supply.
So unpredictability is one ofthe big problems, then it's just
it's it's kind of whimsical.
Unpredictability is absolutelyone of the big problems.
I don't know whether it'swhimsical or whether it's
strategic.
I mean it's uh that's that'svery hard for us to be able to
judge.
But the unpredictability ofsupply, but also, as we're now
seeing, the unpredictability ofour our registration and our
(12:56):
legitimacy to be in in Gaza fromthat point of view as well.
SPEAKER_08 (12:59):
Aaron Powell So you've got 60 days and and then
we will see, and you're still innegotiation, and I know that I
mean the first time I heardabout this was was getting on
for six months ago.
And I think as far as I know,you and other aid agencies have
been trying, as you said, quitehard to find some accommodation
and to to keep the Israeliauthorities happy while not
(13:20):
compromising your principles.
I want to move on to the nextbig story that happened between
Christmas and New Year.
Um, and it relates, Dorian, toyour story of the year of 2025,
which was cuts to humanitarianaid, very relevant to you as
well, of course, Chris.
We had an announcement on the29th, very sudden announcement,
(13:42):
because I was telephoned at homehoping to enjoy my holidays by
the US diplomats saying, Oh, youhave to come to this.
There's a big announcement.
SPEAKER_13 (13:50):
This week, the US pledged$2 billion in
humanitarian aid to the UnitedNations as part of a deal that
will also overhaul how the USfunds foreign aid work going
forward.
SPEAKER_17 (14:01):
The US has announced a$2 billion pledge for UN
humanitarian aid.
Tell us what they announced.
SPEAKER_04 (14:09):
Yes, no, exactly.
So on the 29th of December, theUS administration sent to Geneva
Jeremy Lewin, his call, workingfor the State Department.
SPEAKER_08 (14:20):
Relatively new addition to the humanitarian aid
community, I understand.
SPEAKER_04 (14:24):
I believe he was hired by the uh Doja Right.
SPEAKER_08 (14:28):
He worked for Elon Musk to dismantle USAID.
SPEAKER_04 (14:31):
Exactly, yeah.
So he was sent to Geneva toannounce together with the UN
relief chief Dom Fletcher thatthe US would be given 2 billion
US dollars next year to OCHA tofund basically 17 humanitarian
crises across the world.
But this is, I mean, a really Imean two billion isn't nothing.
SPEAKER_08 (14:52):
How does it compare to what they cut though?
SPEAKER_04 (14:55):
So back in the in the day, so in 2024, before
Donald Trump came, the US wasfunding about 40% of OCA's uh
appeals.
So that means it was about 11billion, I think.
And then last year it dropped toa little over three billion, and
now two billion.
So it's a significant dropcompared to the previous
(15:19):
administration.
SPEAKER_08 (15:20):
Nick, you were at the announcement, this guy
Jeremy Lewin, side by side withthe UN emergency relief chief
Tom Fletcher.
What was the the vibe you got?
Was it celebratory?
I mean the UN UN aid agenciesare desperate for cash.
SPEAKER_06 (15:36):
Well, I think that was a big part of the of the
occasion, really.
Um Tom Fletcher was obviouslydelighted to have two billion
dollars, arguably, at hisdisposal at the point when he's
asking other countries tosubscribe to the global
humanitarian appeal.
It was useful for him to have anAmerican contribution of funding
(15:57):
at that point.
And so he was all gratitude.
And I think it was clear thatthe Global Humanitarian Appeal,
which had emphasized the needfor reform in the delivery of
humanitarian assistance, hadbeen framed to some extent to
reflect the conversations he'dbeen having over many weeks with
the Trump administration.
The trouble with all this is itcame with some language that
(16:20):
would be concerning to anybodywho's interested in sort of
neutral, impartial delivery ofhumanitarian assistance.
There was talk about the radicalideologies perpetrated by some
of the UN agencies which hadundermined American interests
and peace, bizarrely enough.
And then there is also the factthat there's still huge
(16:42):
uncertainty about how this isgoing to work.
It's not as if there's twobillion dollars sitting in a
central fund which is going tobe distributed at the discretion
of Tom Fletcher and the UN.
It's money that's going to goout to 17 different country
operations.
These are supposed to begoverned by memoranda of
understanding, which none ofwhich have been concluded.
(17:03):
So we don't know how this isreally going to work.
And it's money that's going tobe distributed through resident
coordinators in the country.
And so there's a great questionmark over how that money is
going to be coordinated withfunding given bilaterally by
other donors to aid agencies.
And so, yeah, a lot of bigquestion marks about that.
(17:24):
And I think one of the otherconcerns also is that the UN
reform process talks a lot aboutputting much more aid through
local organizations, which inprinciple has a lot of merit.
They're relatively low cost, andso you're avoiding a lot of the
overheads that come with UNagencies and UN administration.
(17:45):
But at the same time, thesesmall organizations don't have
the ability to sort of scale upin quick order to deal with the
immensity of the crises thatwe're dealing with in places
like Sudan.
That really does fall oninternational aid agencies that
have global reach and haveglobal resources.
And they've been slightly leftout of the picture, and we're
(18:05):
not quite clear where what partthey're going to play and how
they're going to be funded ingoing forward.
SPEAKER_04 (18:10):
I think also just the whole image.
So I mean I wasn't at the eventitself, but I saw the photos and
the fact that this event tookplace at the US mission.
SPEAKER_08 (18:18):
Not at the UN, that's right.
SPEAKER_04 (18:20):
Not at the UN, seeing, you know, Tom Fletcher
next to uh Jeremy Lewin.
So this very young, 28-year-oldguy who never worked in the
humanitarian sector, you know,say, well, the humanitarian
organizations have to adapt ordie, I think, who has a quote,
right?
From what his he does.
SPEAKER_08 (18:36):
Yes.
He, Jeremy Lewin, as you said,during aged 28, said to the
assembled UNAID agencies who areall watching this, adapt or die.
Chris, how does that make youfeel?
SPEAKER_05 (18:49):
I'm old.
I'm not 28 anymore.
Even if I'd like to believe thatI am.
So I think just to give contextin terms of how I'm coming at
this, so first thing to say isthat from so from an MSF point
of view, we're very fortunate tobe privately funded.
Very, very little, less than 2%of our funding comes from
(19:10):
government sources.
And that means that we can stillbe on the ground in an
independent, in an impartial, inan impartial way.
But we are seeing the impact ofaid cuts around the world.
We're seeing rates of admissionsfor nutrition programs in
Ethiopia and Somalia going up.
We're seeing health centersclosed in in Afghanistan.
And this is as a consequence ofaid funding across the board.
(19:32):
The US is clearly the mostconsequential actor in this, but
there are many other governmentswho have done the same.
And so the impact is very realand we can see it.
And it is we're seeing morepatients come to our clinics as
a as a result of it.
Now, I share, I think, the sameconcerns as as UNIC when it
comes to what does this mean interms of the distribution, the
prioritization, and theallocation of not just the money
(19:54):
and the resources, but thepeople and the expertise that
comes behind it.
And it does leave manyquestions.
To be asked in terms of the aidresponse globally.
You know, in principle, I wouldbe very in favour of OCA taking
a role of ensuring there is thatflexible funding to scale up
responses at a global level andat a local level.
(20:15):
But that has to be based on theneeds that are in front of the
humanitarians who are there,based on who is in most acute
need, whether that's within acountry like South Sudan or
Sudan or DRC, or whether that'sglobally.
And I think clearly some of thestatements that came with this
announcement were that it wouldbe in line with uh US foreign
(20:35):
policy interests, for example.
Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_08 (20:37):
And domestic policy interests, they actually said,
which even from thisadministration took me aback.
SPEAKER_05 (20:43):
And so that that leaves me with questions then in
terms of the extent to whichthat is possible or to which
that is constrained in terms ofprioritized countries or
deprioritized countries, butalso thematics as well.
What about when it comes towomen and child health care?
What about when in looking atLGBTQ communities around the
world?
(21:05):
But this is what we mean whenwe're talking about neutral
impartial um provision ofhumanitarian assistance, is
getting to the people who aremost vulnerable.
That is the key thing, and wherewe we we need to spend most of
our resources.
SPEAKER_06 (21:17):
And I mean the the the list of 17 countries was
also in its in a senseproblematic.
It includes Central Americancountries that are not at the
top of anybody's humanitariancrisis list.
SPEAKER_08 (21:28):
El Salvador is on there, I think.
SPEAKER_06 (21:29):
Guatemala, Guatemala and Honduras.
And it it conspicuously leftout, and Lewin was quite uh
explicit on this point thatthere was going to be no money
from America for Afghanistan,which has a huge hunger crisis
at the moment.
Huge crisis for health, forwomen and children, and none for
Yemen.
(21:50):
So yeah, that's that list ofcountries reflects very much uh
some American priorities.
SPEAKER_08 (21:56):
So so we're moving into a thing that which it was
always there under the surfacethat traditional donors
sometimes did say, well, wequite favor that particular
region.
But it's this is really blatantnow.
It's absolutely clear.
And since you mentioned thatLatin American countries are on
there, time to go to our thirdand final topic.
(22:21):
But first, a quick break, wherewe'll hear about a podcast from
our colleagues at ForeignPolicy.
SPEAKER_07 (22:26):
Hello, I'm Femi OK, and I'm the new host of The
Negotiators, the show that drawsback the curtain on some of the
most compelling negotiationsaround the world.
This season, we're taking ascuba diving in the Red Sea,
walking the grounds of a luxuryresort in Uganda, and even
aboard an aging oil tankerfloating off the coast of Yemen.
SPEAKER_02 (22:46):
We were constantly monitored by drones overhead,
divers under the vessel, so itwas not exactly a high trust
operation.
SPEAKER_07 (22:53):
That's the negotiators, available now,
wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome back, everyone.
SPEAKER_08 (22:58):
Now for our third and final big event that
interrupted the holiday period.
No surprises.
It's Venezuela.
SPEAKER_11 (23:08):
Overnight, Venezuelan president Nicolas
Maduro and his wife touchingdown on U.S.
soil, surrounded by federalagents.
Nios of leader handcuffed on thetarmac in New York, just hours
after being captured and removedby American forces.
SPEAKER_10 (23:21):
This was not an invasion.
We didn't occupy a country.
This was an arrest operation.
This was a law enforcementoperation.
He was arrested on the ground inVenezuela by FBI agents, read
his rights, and removed from thecountry.
Obviously, this was not afriendly territory.
So in order to arrest him, wehad to ask the Department of War
to become involved in thisoperation.
SPEAKER_01 (23:39):
We're going to have our very large United States oil
companies, the biggest anywherein the world, go in.
SPEAKER_03 (23:48):
As the High Commissioner has said, this
operation violates a fundamentalprinciple of international law.
It violates the UN Charter.
SPEAKER_08 (23:54):
It is relevant to us.
The US is very interested in theWestern Hemisphere.
It's made it absolutely clear,Uncle Sam's backyard.
I first heard that when I was ateenager.
It's back.
That Central and South America,obviously, Washington views as
its domain.
And we're all here in Genevamuttering to ourselves, but you
(24:16):
just violated international law.
You and Human Rights said thatthis morning, Dorian and Nick, I
think you were both both therewhen UN Human Rights put that
said that.
Does it matter to anyone?
SPEAKER_06 (24:27):
Well, yes, it matters deeply.
It's kind of ironic that, youknow, they should be invoking
the Munro Doctrine, which wasformulated initially, you know,
as a as a barrier againstWestern imperialism and
colonialism in the LatinAmerican continent.
Whereas what we're seeing hereis a doctrine, the Dunro
Doctrine, which seems to be kindof imperial in essence.
(24:48):
And it's concerning for allsorts of reasons.
I mean, it's concerning in thecontext specifically of
Venezuela, because there's solittle coherence so far from the
administration about theirobjectives.
Trump says he's running it andthat they're going to stay in
the country and run it for along time.
Secretary Rudio, who's a keyplayer in this, has given out a
(25:09):
very different kind of note onthat.
But I I mean it it's deeplyconcerning for all the reasons
that were laid out this morningby uh the UN Human Rights
Office, which is that itundermines the principles of
territorial sovereignty and theUN Charter.
And it's concerning becausequite clear that this strategy
doesn't stop, it's strategy isperhaps too flattering a term,
(25:31):
but you know, these instinctsdon't stop with Venezuela.
Uh Trump has talked aboutColombia, he's talked about
Mexico, he's talked about Iran,we've seen him bombing Nigeria.
And of course, particularly now,they're talking about Greenland,
a NATO country.
So what we're seeing is, Ithink, in some ways, an
inflection point, you know,where the the the fundamental
(25:52):
commitments to some form ofinternational law that have
underpinned Western securitysince World War II are being
completely abandoned by anadministration that doesn't
acknowledge any accountabilityto anyone except itself.
SPEAKER_04 (26:04):
And I think, if I may, what is also worrying about
this is the, I mean, European, Ithink, in particular, reaction
to this.
So it's been really timid to saythe least.
I think only Spain has takenreally a strong stand to condemn
this action.
So if, you know, Europeancountries which traditionally
(26:24):
sort of are at least want to bethe voice of international law,
even though it's been alsoeroded a little bit in the last
years with their stand on Gaza.
But I mean, then it weakens theentire architecture of uh
international law.
And it's I guess for Europeancountries that also see Russia's
action in Ukraine and that seeTrump with Finland.
(26:46):
I guess it just makes them lesssafe, as also highlighted the UN
Human Rights Office.
SPEAKER_06 (26:51):
If you're not sure, yeah, I think it I I mean the
spokeswoman's comment that it iteverybody is less safe as a
result of this is is the bottomline.
Um, it kind of green lights theoperations that people like
Vladimir Putin have undertakenin Ukraine and potentially China
would undertake in Taiwan.
I mean, I think these are theanalogies that everybody is
drawing.
And you will have to say alsothat it it should be of real
(27:14):
concern to Americans who may notbe interested in foreign policy,
because what we are also seeingis an administration that is
completely ignoring the kind ofconstitutional checks and
balances that have underpinnedUS democracy.
And so in this operation, theTrump administration has
completely ignored Congress andseems to basically be pursuing
(27:36):
its its own agenda withoutreally any regard to the
legalities that it faces at homeor abroad.
SPEAKER_08 (27:43):
What a lot of people perhaps watching this, people
who don't work in Geneva,perhaps don't realize is that
people in Venezuela have beensuffering for a long time, and
not just because they've had arepressive government, but
humanitarian issues.
They are short of power, shortof food.
Eight million have fled, and notactually Hello Donald to the
(28:04):
United States.
They fled primarily to Colombia,which has been quite generous in
looking after them.
So I'm going to bring you in,Chris, maybe just almost for the
the final word.
When you see this as as along-standing humanitarian work,
I mean does your heart sink?
Because I'm just thinking, herewe go again.
Somebody sitting in a in agovernment office in a nice
(28:27):
gilded oval office might think,yeah, job done.
But for you guys, probably thework is just beginning.
SPEAKER_05 (28:33):
Well, I think there's there's a question of
what does this mean from uh alegal point of view.
But I think the the project, theissue in front of us is bigger
than a legal issue.
You know, there is the questionof violation of Article 4.2.
There is also the question ofnon-adherence to ICJ rulings to
bring in uh unimpededhumanitarian assistance to Gaza.
(28:53):
There's the question ofdeclarations for the protection
of humanitarian workers, and atthe same time, we're seeing them
being killed in droves.
And so there is a real questionhere in terms of accountability,
in terms of mutualaccountability and individual
responsibility when it comes toupholding norms and also
ensuring that it is uh peopleare willing to not just call out
(29:15):
their their enemies but call outtheir allies as as well.
And unless we get to that levelof accountability on all of
these things, then we're goingto see a degradation on in terms
of these norms, but moreimportantly, to the individuals
all around the world, whetherthat is in Gaza, in Sudan, in
Ukraine, or Venezuela, there arereal people who are living
through the consequences ofthese decisions that are made in
(29:38):
places like Washington, DC, inNew York, in Geneva.
And there's also a lot, a hugeamount of speculation about who
wanted this action, who didn'twant this action.
I have a close uh Venezuelanfriend who wrote this um just
yesterday saying, we neverwanted this, not this way.
We wanted to do it our way likewe always have, but we will take
it and keep going because thisis not over.
(29:59):
Not until we can dance in ourstreets instead of yours.
This is our journey, no oneelse's.
We all know it, everyone exceptthose who know nothing about the
place where I come from.
SPEAKER_08 (30:10):
Good point.
SPEAKER_05 (30:11):
So if there's there's an intersection of
international norms and anindividual's raw emotion, I
don't think it comes clearerthan that.
SPEAKER_08 (30:18):
That is the definition, I suppose, of
sovereignty, but also thedefinition of you don't just go
in and grab a country that youdon't know that much about.
Well, we hope, I guess, that atsome point we will see
Venezuelans having their ownelections, free and fair, and
dancing in the street because ofthat.
(30:40):
In the meantime, unfortunately,uh, Dorian, I think your point
was right.
At the moment, we are all lesssafe than the last time we sat
in this studio.
Let's hope that 2026 can only goupwards from now on, fingers
crossed.
Chris Locke here, Nick ComingBruce, Dorian Burke Halter.
Thank you very much, and that'sit for this special edition of
(31:03):
Inside Geneva.
A reminder, you've beenlistening to Inside Geneva, a
Swiss info production.
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
(31:25):
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
I'm Imogen folks.
Thanks again for listening.
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