March 3, 2026 • 29 mins
In August 2021, the Taliban took back control in Afghanistan. Women face unprecedented repression.
They can’t go to school or work; public parks are banned to them; they are not allowed to speak or sing too loudly. Are we turning away?
“This is the time for the international community and for other countries, especially the EU, to step in and to make sure they respond to the crisis in Afghanistan and stand with the women of Afghanistan and to do everything they can to protect their rights,” says Fereshta Abbasi, from Human Rights Watch.
Diplomats in Geneva have backed a powerful UN fact-finding mission for Afghanistan.
“As an ambassador, and as a woman, [I know that] women have fought for decades if not centuries for their rights, and I also personally do not want to see a back-peddling on those rights that we, and generations of brave women before us, have fought for for so long,” says Deike Potzel, EU Ambassador to the UN in Geneva.
Women inside Afghanistan need to know there is support.
“Women and girls in Afghanistan resist in ways that don’t form a single movement. It’s about 1,000 quiet and important uprisings and day-to-day revolutions: a resistance that is fierce and creative to show that they exist and that they will never accept that kind of domination,” says Sahar Fetrat, an Afghan campaigner for women’s rights.
The fact-finding mission can gather evidence and hold Afghanistan’s government and individual Taliban leaders to account. But ordinary women across Europe can help too.
“Here in Europe, in Geneva, we have the wonderful opportunity to actually make our voices heard and to be heard. So use that chance, get engaged. Open your eyes and then do something,” says Potzel.
Join some inspiring women talking to Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
Production assitant: Claire-Marie Germain
Distribution: Sara Pasino
Marketing: Xin Zhang
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_08 (00:07):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
The Taliban took power three and a half years
ago.
The rules they first imposedstill stand.
Girls over 12 can't go toschool.
And women are banned from manygovernment jobs and from playing
sports.
SPEAKER_05 (00:36):
This is time for the international community, for
other countries, especially theEU, to step in and to make sure
that they are responding to thecrisis in Afghanistan and they
are standing with women ofAfghanistan and to do anything
they can to protect theirrights.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Concerns are growing over new Taliban laws banning
women's voices and bare faces inpublic in Afghanistan.
UN officials say the rulesextend the quote already
intolerable restrictions on therights of women and girls.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
As an ambassador and as a woman, women have fought
for decades, if not centuries,for their rights.
And that I also personally donot want to see a backpedaling
on those rights that we havefought for for so long, that uh
brave women before us havefought for so long.
SPEAKER_06 (01:23):
Women are also banned from working in most
sectors outside the home and areprohibited from places like
gyms, parks, and salons.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Women and girls in Afghanistan resist in ways that
are not shaping one movement.
It's about thousand quiet andimportant uprisings or
revolutions day to day to lead akind of resistance that is
fierce, that is creative, toshow that they exist and that
they will never accept that kindof domination.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
We here in Europe, in Geneva, we have the wonderful
opportunity to actually make ourvoices heard and to be heard.
So use that chance, get engaged.
So open your eyes and then dosomething.
SPEAKER_08 (02:30):
Because as our attention with good reason
perhaps focuses on Ukraine orthe ongoing misery in Gaza or
Sudan, are we neglecting areally serious human rights
crisis, one in which women arebeing suppressed to an
unprecedented degree?
SPEAKER_04 (02:48):
Girls are banned from attending school beyond the
sixth grade, and universitiesare off limits.
This makes Afghanistan the onlycountry with such harsh
educational restrictions.
Despite promises to reopenschools under Islamic Sharia
laws, no steps have been takento reintegrate women into
educational institutions.
SPEAKER_08 (03:05):
When the Taliban returned to power in 2021, I
remember some people saying,well, this is a different
Taliban.
Perhaps we should give them achance.
This could be different.
And anyway, the last Afghangovernment, propped up by the
West, wasn't exactly great.
But even then Afghan women werewarning us, and now they have
(03:29):
every right to say, we told youso.
We'll be hearing from two Afghanwomen, both of them human rights
defenders, in this program.
SPEAKER_05 (03:39):
This is Fareshta Abbosi, and I am the Afghanistan
researcher for Human RightsWatch.
I feel that if there is oneplace in this world that needs
me the most is Afghanistan, andI am committed to be working on
that, and I am hopeful that Iwill be able to go back and work
from Afghanistan one day.
SPEAKER_03 (03:55):
My name is Sahar Fatrat.
I'm a feminist from Afghanistan.
I grew up in Kabul, and I thinkthat was the most important time
of my life, going to school anduniversity as well.
I remember having a lot of hopesfor the future, believing in
education, knowing thateducation will change the
(04:17):
trajectory of my life.
And it did, it really did.
And looking back, I feel verylucky.
SPEAKER_08 (04:24):
And from the European Union ambassador to the
UN in Geneva, who is workinghard to mobilize support for
women in Afghanistan.
SPEAKER_02 (04:33):
This is really a flagrant violation of human
rights, basic human rights.
Hearing that women are notallowed to work, that they are
not allowed to go outside ontheir own, that they have to
completely cover up, that theirvoice is not, or that they are
not allowed to use their voiceoutside the house, that they are
deprived of education.
(04:54):
It's just so appalling and soshocking that I think the
international community has allthe facts on the table to say
this is not acceptable at all.
SPEAKER_08 (05:07):
Let's hear first from Fareshta Abazi of Human
Rights Watch and Sahar Fetrat,both from Afghanistan, both now
living in exile, both tirelessin their determination to defend
women's rights.
But what they are hearing nowfrom women still inside
Afghanistan is, Fareshta says,chilling.
SPEAKER_05 (05:29):
Afghanistan has become the worst women's rights
crisis in the world.
In 2026, Afghanistan remains tobe the only country in the world
where its women and girls do nothave access to secondary and
higher education.
Women face severe restrictions,accessing employment.
Women do not have the right tofreedom of movement, freedom of
(05:50):
expression, freedom of umassembly.
And this is something that wehave been Afghan women have been
warning about since 2021 and theTaliban takeover.
SPEAKER_08 (06:00):
Of course, you're from Afghanistan yourself, but
you you live in Britain now.
Still you have friends, I'msure, relatives.
What are they telling you rightnow?
SPEAKER_05 (06:10):
There is an atmosphere of disappointment
back home.
It's the picture that I get fromAfghanistan is very dark.
People are really disappointed,very depressed.
No one believes that things willget better under the Taleman
rule.
And that's very sad.
SPEAKER_08 (06:27):
And Sahar adds, it's all the more dismaying because
Afghan women themselves knewwhat was coming.
SPEAKER_03 (06:34):
Afghan women had that experience from the past.
Even if we didn't live throughit, uh ourselves, our mothers,
our aunts, our all the women inour communities lived through
that and they knew what it meantto live under a system of total
male domination, Talibandomination, and female
(06:57):
suppression and oppression.
So they did not hear Afghanwomen despite all the advocacy,
despite all the activism.
And uh now people who are payingthat cost day to day are Afghan
women and girls.
And they keep telling me thatthey live in a country that
(07:18):
feels like an open prison thatis getting tighter and more
suffocating day by day.
A system of total domination inevery way possible.
They tell me about how difficultit is to wake up every morning
and to imagine a future, imaginea life, imagine being alive and
(07:39):
living that day to day.
A lot of young girls tell methat they wake up every day by
habit, trying to get ready forschool, and they face day-to-day
that sad reality that they can'tbecause just because they're
girls, they cannot go.
So they face this every singleday that because they are girls
(08:00):
or women, they are treated asless, their existence is in a
way illegitimate.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
The Taliban have shut beauty salons where women
could meet and work.
And there have been more rulestelling women how to dress in
public, including fully coveringtheir faces.
SPEAKER_08 (08:16):
What does it feel like to feel your very existence
is, as Sahar puts it,illegitimate?
For me, for many of youlistening, I guess, it's almost
impossible to imagine suchoppression.
The very things that define ourlives school, work, sport,
(08:36):
music, even just walking in apark, are now, for Afghan women,
forbidden.
But in Europe at least, there isa will to try to help.
In October last year, at theurging of the European Union,
the UN Human Rights Councilapproved a fact-finding mission
(08:56):
for Afghanistan.
Daiker Potzel is the EUambassador in Geneva.
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
The crucial issue really was accountability and
really the strong urge to have abetter accountability mechanism.
Because those who perpetrate thecrimes, they need to be held
responsible.
And this is actually the drivingmotive for us to have this
mechanism in place.
SPEAKER_07 (09:19):
So is it up and running?
SPEAKER_08 (09:21):
What's it doing if it is, and is it funded?
SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
It's not up and running yet.
You ask a very crucial question,and that's the funding.
Uh, and the High Commissionerwill tell you that this is
really the question.
And we are looking into that.
And of course, we hope for a lotof support by other member
states as well, because thisdecision to establish this
mechanism was made in consensus.
So everybody agreed.
(09:44):
And so we hope, of course, thatmore countries will come up with
money to actually finance it.
SPEAKER_08 (09:49):
We see one traditionally particularly large
contributor to UN human rightsand other UN work, that is the
United States pulling away theirrecent announcement of this$2
billion, it specifically rulesout Afghanistan.
What do you think about that?
I mean, you know, the US wasmilitarily so present in
(10:10):
Afghanistan for so long.
How do you judge that particularstance?
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Now, we shouldn't uh sort of mingle or confuse the
different areas.
So the two billion are onhumanitarian assistance, and we
hear that the US is now comingback with even more.
So that is a very good sign.
On the other hand, yes, you'revery right, they withdrew from
the Human Rights Council.
And for us, this is still avery, very important instrument
(10:36):
that we have.
We are very committed todefending human rights and the
uh Universal Declaration ofHuman Rights.
So as the EU, also with regardsto Afghanistan, we stay engaged,
right?
So we still have a missionthere, a diplomatic mission.
No other European country hasthat, but the EU is there, which
helps us to really be on theground, understand what people
(10:59):
need, and also, of course,oversee the project.
So we want to do what we can do.
SPEAKER_08 (11:05):
But as we heard there, the fact-finding mission
is not up and running yet.
It's not funded.
And we know UN Human Rights,like the rest of the UN, is
suffering a huge cash crisis.
Fareshta Abazi of Human RightsWatch worked tirelessly to get
the mechanism created andcelebrated its agreement last
(11:26):
October.
She remains hopeful about whatit can achieve.
SPEAKER_05 (11:30):
It's definitely an investment for the future of
Afghanistan.
Um, it's an investment foraccountability.
On October 6, 2025, the cultureof impunity was broken in
Afghanistan, which means thatthis mechanism will be able to
investigate human rights abusesand to identify perpetrators,
something that no otherinstitution has done for
(11:50):
Afghanistan for decades.
But I also believe that thiscould have an important
deterrent effect on the ground.
For example, as we know that therules are not being implemented
in a unified way all over thecountry.
There are some spaces in someprovinces of Afghanistan, and
we're hoping that thismechanism, the fact that this
(12:12):
mechanism will document and willidentify individual criminal
responsibility for the Talibanleaders and their authorities in
different provinces, will givethem a pause for second thought
before implementing theseabusive uh policies, especially
against women and girls.
SPEAKER_08 (12:29):
How do you think the international climate is,
though, now for drawingattention to a situation like
this?
Afghanistan does seem to haveslipped down the agenda.
We have in the United States anadministration which is removing
references to gender anddiversity from any humanitarian
(12:52):
programs it supports, and hassaid it won't support any anyway
for Afghanistan.
SPEAKER_05 (12:57):
Does that make your task more difficult?
It's very unfortunate to hearthat, but also to really think
what impact can that have on theground for people's daily lives.
So since the USAICAT andAfghanistan, at least 400 um
health facilities have beenclosed.
So it definitely makes it moredifficult for us.
(13:19):
But I also hope that this istime for the international
community, for other countries,especially the EU, to step in
and to make sure that they areresponding to the crisis in
Afghanistan and they arestanding with uh with women of
Afghanistan and to do anythingthey can to protect their
rights.
One of the reasons that theAfghan civil society believed
that this is needed forAfghanistan was because of the
(13:41):
culture of impunity that hadbeen ongoing in the country for
decades.
There had never been a mechanismthat could document abuses and
could identify perpetrators.
For the past four and a halfyears, organizations had been
reporting about the Talibancoming up with all these abusive
laws and restrictions, but whoactually the Taliban are, who
(14:01):
within the Taliban leadership isresponsible for all of these
abuses, we didn't have names.
So that's why this mechanism isvery powerful.
It will go after the Talibanauthorities, it will go after
individuals, and it willidentify individual criminal
responsibilities.
It sends a strong message backto the Taliban in Afghanistan
that even their leadership canno longer protect them.
SPEAKER_08 (14:23):
And Sahar, too, is really hoping for
accountability.
SPEAKER_03 (14:27):
Obviously, I I welcome it like uh other
Afghan's.
Uh, I think it's importantbecause Afghanistan has been
going through decades of uhimpunity and lack of
accountability.
And I think that's the reasonwhy, one of the reasons why we
are where we are today.
It's really important to collectand safeguard evidence before
(14:49):
it's very late.
It's important for thismechanism to work towards uh
accountability and justice, andto have a gender-responsive and
victim-centered approach, andwith a scope that goes beyond
what's happening now and itlooks at different uh crimes
committed by different actors.
SPEAKER_08 (15:09):
What about this term gender apartheid?
The EU, although it wants thisfact-finding mission to focus
particularly on the situation ofwomen, it doesn't want to use
this term.
What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_03 (15:23):
Well, if um if if people re are really serious
about supporting Afron women andunderstand their struggles and
be helpful, they need tounderstand and learn from the
past that they should listen toAfghan women.
And to listen to Afghan women uhand to hear them is to
acknowledge their demand.
(15:44):
And Afghan women have been foryears talking about, even in the
90s, have been talking aboutgender apartheid and the crime
of apartheid.
When Afghan women are asking forgender apartheid to be
recognized as a crime againsthumanity, it's important because
they know that it will havemajor legal, political, and
(16:07):
moral uh implications.
SPEAKER_08 (16:08):
Legal, moral, and political implications?
How likely is that really, giventhe current geopolitical
climate?
I had another question forAmbassador Dyka Potzel.
You did say Europe wants to dowhat it can do.
Coming back to the United Statesagain, be honest with me.
Have you got a listening earthere about the situation for
(16:32):
women in Afghanistan?
Because we are seeing the US puta red line through mentions of
gender and diversity in nearlyall non-governmental
organization and UN programs.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Yeah, we should talk to our American colleagues about
all the situation inAfghanistan.
And um we still have a gooddialogue on those issues.
That does not mean that thatwill reverse their take on
certain issues, but it is stillpossible to have that dialogue,
and we of course very muchwelcome that, and uh, and we use
(17:06):
those channels to make ourpoints and to explain how we
look at the situation and whatwe feel needs to be done to
hopefully improve that.
SPEAKER_08 (17:17):
All right, well, just take your ambassador's hat
off for a minute.
Are you dismayed as a woman thatthe debate has entered this kind
of zone?
SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
What kind of zone?
SPEAKER_08 (17:27):
Well, where references to supporting women's
rights are basically activelydisapproved of by big
international powers.
SPEAKER_02 (17:37):
Well, I keep saying, you know, as an ambassador and
as a woman, that women havefought for decades, if not
centuries, for their rights.
And that I also personally donot want to see a backpedaling
on those rights that we havefought for for so long, that uh
brave women before us havefought for so long.
(18:00):
So I think I'm I try to be veryvocal about that, um, also in my
private conversations or in mywork conversations also with
other colleagues, because reallyit is uh something that's very
close to my heart to defendwomen's rights here, but also of
course uh in contexts likeAfghanistan.
There's no way around it.
(18:20):
Yeah, but we have those frankconversations, and you can still
have them.
And uh as a woman, uh Idefinitely feel that we have to
have them, particularly withproponents of a different view,
with men, but uh also with womenwho um are also part of that
conversation of the other takeon things.
(18:41):
Let me put it like this.
SPEAKER_08 (18:43):
Right at the beginning, you talked about
pushing for the mechanismbecause you want to ensure
accountability.
Do you think that's likely?
I mean, we see that can take avery long time.
But for example, we have theMyanmar case at the ICJ right
now.
Women have gone there afteralmost a decade of waiting.
(19:05):
Does that does that give youheart?
SPEAKER_02 (19:07):
Absolutely.
And I'm really truly veryimpressed with what happened in
The Hague and that the courtproceedings are are ongoing in
the case of Myanmar and theRohingya crisis, of course.
And I can see your skepticism,right, um, on the on the
Afghanistan mechanism as well.
Yet I think it is definitely asign of hope for victims.
It is a possibility also to showperpetrators you are not going
(19:32):
unwatched.
And particularly something likethe Myanmar case now shows, even
if you think, you know, it'sbeen 20 years, it's been 10
years, or what have you, thereis justice coming.
And for people today, forperpetrators today, to
understand that this is apossibility is I think already a
powerful sign.
(19:53):
So not doing it to me is not anoption, really.
We need instruments that showvictims we are with you, and we
want you to succeed making yourcase and to the perpetrators
really to show them you areyou're being watched and justice
will be coming.
SPEAKER_08 (20:12):
Justice will be coming.
That's a hopeful thought.
But these cases are notoriousfor how long they take.
The brave Rohingya womentestifying at the International
Court of Justice in the genocidecase against Myanmar had to wait
almost 10 years.
And by the way, our next InsideGeneva, out on March 17th, is
(20:36):
all about that case.
Will Afghan women have to waitso long?
How does Sahar see the future?
SPEAKER_03 (20:44):
Well, um I often uh want to believe that having hope
in the face of oppression is isa form of resistance, and I
mostly try to live uh like that.
But sometimes it's really uhhard to stay committed to that.
(21:04):
Because in reality, right nowlooking at Afghanistan, I'm
really worried about the futureuh of my people, and I can't
imagine what the country wouldlook like in 10 years, in 15,
and in 20 and 30 years.
And I think that is somethingthat takes my my sleep away at
night and it makes me reallyanxious.
(21:25):
But ultimately I know that youknow it's important to have all
the international mechanisms andsystems in place and advocate
for better Afghanistan becauseAfghanistan is is a collective
mess and it's everyone'sresponsibility.
But I also firmly believe thatthe future of Afghanistan will
be shaped by its people.
(21:47):
And as women of Afghanistan, Ithink we've thoroughly
understood what oppression isand what it means, and how it's
connected to the estate and andthe to the Taliban.
And I think it's time for Afghanmen to understand.
That and to understand that ifwomen are oppressed, they are
oppressed as well.
I think the country will changeonce that understanding is
(22:07):
shared by many many people inAfghanistan.
And yeah, the oppressors willnot stay there forever.
But it's important that weunderstand what it takes and
that it takes a crack, cracksfrom within to end the
oppression.
So support from the UN.
SPEAKER_08 (22:28):
Get that fact-finding mission up and
running, please.
Support women in Afghanistan sothey can perhaps create some of
those cracks Sahar talked about.
But I imagine many of ourlisteners are also wondering
what they individually can do tohelp.
Ambassador Dyka Potzel has somesuggestions, but first she has a
(22:50):
message direct to Afghan womenand girls.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
I can just say that I deeply admire their resilience
and their strength.
It's for me very difficult toimagine what it's like to live
in those circumstances.
And we hear about, you know,growing numbers of suicide by
women, and it's so shocking.
So I just wish them all thestrength in the world.
(23:14):
I wish that they have thestrength not to give up hope
that things might change, andthat they get back to a life
where they can enjoy all thehuman rights that we all agreed
upon, and that they can livetheir life and their future,
shape their future the way theywant by having a decent
education, going to university,becoming a doctor, a lawyer, a
(23:37):
filmmaker, uh a nurse, whateverthey wish their life to be like,
wishing them all the very best.
And to say, do not think that wehave given up on you.
We are watching and we arereally carefully following
what's going on, and we reallywant to help you.
We want to help you, and we dothat in the framework that we
(23:59):
can, but we are there with you.
SPEAKER_08 (24:01):
On Inside Geneva, a lot of our listeners are women.
Many of them will be asking,what can I do to help?
They read about what's happeningin Afghanistan, they are angry,
upset about it.
What could they actually do?
I mean, it's just as you, youknow, some normal person,
teacher, social worker.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
Yeah, I always keep telling also younger people
don't complain, engage.
There are so many NGOs active inthat field.
So if this is really close toyour heart, look for one which
is close to you and then getengaged.
Talk about it, talk about it tofamily, talk about it to
friends, make people aware ofwhat you are concerned about and
(24:44):
what the situation is.
Write to media outlets.
Tell them, you know, I want toread more about this, and I'm
appalled by the situation, and Ididn't like that report or
whatever.
So we here in Europe, in Geneva,we have the wonderful
opportunity to actually make ourvoices heard and to be heard.
So use that chance, get engaged.
(25:05):
So I think there's plenty ofopportunity.
SPEAKER_07 (25:08):
Open your eyes and then do something.
Fareshta Abasi is doingsomething, and she's not giving
up.
SPEAKER_08 (25:15):
She has a message from the women who are still
inside Afghanistan, whose hopesare invested in justice.
If not now, then in the future.
SPEAKER_05 (25:25):
Last October, I was um actually approached by one of
the female journalists fromquite the rural area of
Afghanistan, not in one of thebig cities.
Um, she was living in one of therural provinces of Afghanistan,
and she apparently had watchedone of the side events that I
had spoken at, talking about themechanism.
I remember that day walking outof the UN building, um,
(25:46):
receiving a text message fromher saying that she had watched
the side event and she hadthought about it, and she thinks
that this mechanism will reallymake a change on the ground for
women.
And I asked her about it.
I asked her if she can give us acode because she told me that
she is in the country, shedoesn't have a voice, and she
asked me to speak for women ofAfghanistan.
(26:08):
And for me, that was quite anemotional moment because she was
a journalist, and I mean shegave us an eloquent code about
what this mechanism means.
She basically said that thismechanism will give hope to the
women of Afghanistan.
They know that if their storiesare being recorded, that the
pain that they're going throughthese days is not erasable and
(26:31):
it will be documented somewhere.
This will give them hope tosurvive these days.
SPEAKER_08 (26:36):
And in fact, you have that quote with you.
Why don't you you read it forus?
Sure.
SPEAKER_05 (26:41):
Okay, let's hope it's not gonna make me emotional
because every time I read thecode, I became emotional.
Justice may not come to ourlives today, but if our stories
are recorded, we have a chanceto get justice tomorrow.
That's why this mechanism isneeded.
This will give us hope andstrength to endure these
difficult days, knowing that wewill be able to hold some of the
(27:02):
Talmud leaders accountable, thatthese crimes are not
forgettable, and that oursuffering is not erased.
SPEAKER_08 (27:09):
You've waited several years for this
fact-finding mission.
What are your hopes now?
I'm sure you would at some pointlike to go back to your country.
Do you see that?
I mean, how do you see thefuture for Afghanistan in in the
next 10 years?
SPEAKER_05 (27:24):
It's very difficult to answer this question.
Imagine if somebody asked thisquestion from me in 2020.
I could not see the August 2021coming like that.
But I am still hopeful and Iwant to go back.
I definitely want to go back toAfghanistan.
The reason that I still work onthe country is because um I feel
that if there is one place inthis world that needs me the
(27:46):
most is Afghanistan.
And I am committed to be workingon that, and I am hopeful that I
will be able to go back and workfrom Afghanistan one day.
SPEAKER_08 (28:00):
And that brings us to the end of this edition of
Inside Geneva.
We hope you enjoyed the podcastand that you were inspired by
the courage and determination ofFareshta and Sahar.
A reminder that next time onInside Geneva, we'll be bringing
you an in-depth report on thecase of genocide against Myanmar
(28:22):
currently underway at theInternational Court of Justice,
where women are fighting forjustice for women.
SPEAKER_05 (28:29):
If you were in that court, I can assure you
international law is alive andit is fighting very hard.
SPEAKER_08 (28:40):
That's out on March 17th.
Do join us then.
A reminder (28:49):
you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a
Swiss Info production.
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
(29:13):
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_01 (00:24):
The Taliban took power three and a half years
ago.
The rules they first imposedstill stand.
Girls over 12 can't go toschool.
And women are banned from manygovernment jobs and from playing
sports.
SPEAKER_05 (00:36):
This is time for the international community, for
other countries, especially theEU, to step in and to make sure
that they are responding to thecrisis in Afghanistan and they
are standing with women ofAfghanistan and to do anything
they can to protect theirrights.
SPEAKER_00 (00:50):
Concerns are growing over new Taliban laws banning
women's voices and bare faces inpublic in Afghanistan.
UN officials say the rulesextend the quote already
intolerable restrictions on therights of women and girls.
SPEAKER_02 (01:03):
As an ambassador and as a woman, women have fought
for decades, if not centuries,for their rights.
And that I also personally donot want to see a backpedaling
on those rights that we havefought for for so long, that uh
brave women before us havefought for so long.
SPEAKER_06 (01:23):
Women are also banned from working in most
sectors outside the home and areprohibited from places like
gyms, parks, and salons.
SPEAKER_03 (01:30):
Women and girls in Afghanistan resist in ways that
are not shaping one movement.
It's about thousand quiet andimportant uprisings or
revolutions day to day to lead akind of resistance that is
fierce, that is creative, toshow that they exist and that
they will never accept that kindof domination.
SPEAKER_02 (01:52):
We here in Europe, in Geneva, we have the wonderful
opportunity to actually make ourvoices heard and to be heard.
So use that chance, get engaged.
So open your eyes and then dosomething.
SPEAKER_08 (02:30):
Because as our attention with good reason
perhaps focuses on Ukraine orthe ongoing misery in Gaza or
Sudan, are we neglecting areally serious human rights
crisis, one in which women arebeing suppressed to an
unprecedented degree?
SPEAKER_04 (02:48):
Girls are banned from attending school beyond the
sixth grade, and universitiesare off limits.
This makes Afghanistan the onlycountry with such harsh
educational restrictions.
Despite promises to reopenschools under Islamic Sharia
laws, no steps have been takento reintegrate women into
educational institutions.
SPEAKER_08 (03:05):
When the Taliban returned to power in 2021, I
remember some people saying,well, this is a different
Taliban.
Perhaps we should give them achance.
This could be different.
And anyway, the last Afghangovernment, propped up by the
West, wasn't exactly great.
But even then Afghan women werewarning us, and now they have
(03:29):
every right to say, we told youso.
We'll be hearing from two Afghanwomen, both of them human rights
defenders, in this program.
SPEAKER_05 (03:39):
This is Fareshta Abbosi, and I am the Afghanistan
researcher for Human RightsWatch.
I feel that if there is oneplace in this world that needs
me the most is Afghanistan, andI am committed to be working on
that, and I am hopeful that Iwill be able to go back and work
from Afghanistan one day.
SPEAKER_03 (03:55):
My name is Sahar Fatrat.
I'm a feminist from Afghanistan.
I grew up in Kabul, and I thinkthat was the most important time
of my life, going to school anduniversity as well.
I remember having a lot of hopesfor the future, believing in
education, knowing thateducation will change the
(04:17):
trajectory of my life.
And it did, it really did.
And looking back, I feel verylucky.
SPEAKER_08 (04:24):
And from the European Union ambassador to the
UN in Geneva, who is workinghard to mobilize support for
women in Afghanistan.
SPEAKER_02 (04:33):
This is really a flagrant violation of human
rights, basic human rights.
Hearing that women are notallowed to work, that they are
not allowed to go outside ontheir own, that they have to
completely cover up, that theirvoice is not, or that they are
not allowed to use their voiceoutside the house, that they are
deprived of education.
(04:54):
It's just so appalling and soshocking that I think the
international community has allthe facts on the table to say
this is not acceptable at all.
SPEAKER_08 (05:07):
Let's hear first from Fareshta Abazi of Human
Rights Watch and Sahar Fetrat,both from Afghanistan, both now
living in exile, both tirelessin their determination to defend
women's rights.
But what they are hearing nowfrom women still inside
Afghanistan is, Fareshta says,chilling.
SPEAKER_05 (05:29):
Afghanistan has become the worst women's rights
crisis in the world.
In 2026, Afghanistan remains tobe the only country in the world
where its women and girls do nothave access to secondary and
higher education.
Women face severe restrictions,accessing employment.
Women do not have the right tofreedom of movement, freedom of
(05:50):
expression, freedom of umassembly.
And this is something that wehave been Afghan women have been
warning about since 2021 and theTaliban takeover.
SPEAKER_08 (06:00):
Of course, you're from Afghanistan yourself, but
you you live in Britain now.
Still you have friends, I'msure, relatives.
What are they telling you rightnow?
SPEAKER_05 (06:10):
There is an atmosphere of disappointment
back home.
It's the picture that I get fromAfghanistan is very dark.
People are really disappointed,very depressed.
No one believes that things willget better under the Taleman
rule.
And that's very sad.
SPEAKER_08 (06:27):
And Sahar adds, it's all the more dismaying because
Afghan women themselves knewwhat was coming.
SPEAKER_03 (06:34):
Afghan women had that experience from the past.
Even if we didn't live throughit, uh ourselves, our mothers,
our aunts, our all the women inour communities lived through
that and they knew what it meantto live under a system of total
male domination, Talibandomination, and female
(06:57):
suppression and oppression.
So they did not hear Afghanwomen despite all the advocacy,
despite all the activism.
And uh now people who are payingthat cost day to day are Afghan
women and girls.
And they keep telling me thatthey live in a country that
(07:18):
feels like an open prison thatis getting tighter and more
suffocating day by day.
A system of total domination inevery way possible.
They tell me about how difficultit is to wake up every morning
and to imagine a future, imaginea life, imagine being alive and
(07:39):
living that day to day.
A lot of young girls tell methat they wake up every day by
habit, trying to get ready forschool, and they face day-to-day
that sad reality that they can'tbecause just because they're
girls, they cannot go.
So they face this every singleday that because they are girls
(08:00):
or women, they are treated asless, their existence is in a
way illegitimate.
SPEAKER_01 (08:06):
The Taliban have shut beauty salons where women
could meet and work.
And there have been more rulestelling women how to dress in
public, including fully coveringtheir faces.
SPEAKER_08 (08:16):
What does it feel like to feel your very existence
is, as Sahar puts it,illegitimate?
For me, for many of youlistening, I guess, it's almost
impossible to imagine suchoppression.
The very things that define ourlives school, work, sport,
(08:36):
music, even just walking in apark, are now, for Afghan women,
forbidden.
But in Europe at least, there isa will to try to help.
In October last year, at theurging of the European Union,
the UN Human Rights Councilapproved a fact-finding mission
(08:56):
for Afghanistan.
Daiker Potzel is the EUambassador in Geneva.
SPEAKER_02 (09:02):
The crucial issue really was accountability and
really the strong urge to have abetter accountability mechanism.
Because those who perpetrate thecrimes, they need to be held
responsible.
And this is actually the drivingmotive for us to have this
mechanism in place.
SPEAKER_07 (09:19):
So is it up and running?
SPEAKER_08 (09:21):
What's it doing if it is, and is it funded?
SPEAKER_02 (09:23):
It's not up and running yet.
You ask a very crucial question,and that's the funding.
Uh, and the High Commissionerwill tell you that this is
really the question.
And we are looking into that.
And of course, we hope for a lotof support by other member
states as well, because thisdecision to establish this
mechanism was made in consensus.
So everybody agreed.
(09:44):
And so we hope, of course, thatmore countries will come up with
money to actually finance it.
SPEAKER_08 (09:49):
We see one traditionally particularly large
contributor to UN human rightsand other UN work, that is the
United States pulling away theirrecent announcement of this$2
billion, it specifically rulesout Afghanistan.
What do you think about that?
I mean, you know, the US wasmilitarily so present in
(10:10):
Afghanistan for so long.
How do you judge that particularstance?
SPEAKER_02 (10:16):
Now, we shouldn't uh sort of mingle or confuse the
different areas.
So the two billion are onhumanitarian assistance, and we
hear that the US is now comingback with even more.
So that is a very good sign.
On the other hand, yes, you'revery right, they withdrew from
the Human Rights Council.
And for us, this is still avery, very important instrument
(10:36):
that we have.
We are very committed todefending human rights and the
uh Universal Declaration ofHuman Rights.
So as the EU, also with regardsto Afghanistan, we stay engaged,
right?
So we still have a missionthere, a diplomatic mission.
No other European country hasthat, but the EU is there, which
helps us to really be on theground, understand what people
(10:59):
need, and also, of course,oversee the project.
So we want to do what we can do.
SPEAKER_08 (11:05):
But as we heard there, the fact-finding mission
is not up and running yet.
It's not funded.
And we know UN Human Rights,like the rest of the UN, is
suffering a huge cash crisis.
Fareshta Abazi of Human RightsWatch worked tirelessly to get
the mechanism created andcelebrated its agreement last
(11:26):
October.
She remains hopeful about whatit can achieve.
SPEAKER_05 (11:30):
It's definitely an investment for the future of
Afghanistan.
Um, it's an investment foraccountability.
On October 6, 2025, the cultureof impunity was broken in
Afghanistan, which means thatthis mechanism will be able to
investigate human rights abusesand to identify perpetrators,
something that no otherinstitution has done for
(11:50):
Afghanistan for decades.
But I also believe that thiscould have an important
deterrent effect on the ground.
For example, as we know that therules are not being implemented
in a unified way all over thecountry.
There are some spaces in someprovinces of Afghanistan, and
we're hoping that thismechanism, the fact that this
(12:12):
mechanism will document and willidentify individual criminal
responsibility for the Talibanleaders and their authorities in
different provinces, will givethem a pause for second thought
before implementing theseabusive uh policies, especially
against women and girls.
SPEAKER_08 (12:29):
How do you think the international climate is,
though, now for drawingattention to a situation like
this?
Afghanistan does seem to haveslipped down the agenda.
We have in the United States anadministration which is removing
references to gender anddiversity from any humanitarian
(12:52):
programs it supports, and hassaid it won't support any anyway
for Afghanistan.
SPEAKER_05 (12:57):
Does that make your task more difficult?
It's very unfortunate to hearthat, but also to really think
what impact can that have on theground for people's daily lives.
So since the USAICAT andAfghanistan, at least 400 um
health facilities have beenclosed.
So it definitely makes it moredifficult for us.
(13:19):
But I also hope that this istime for the international
community, for other countries,especially the EU, to step in
and to make sure that they areresponding to the crisis in
Afghanistan and they arestanding with uh with women of
Afghanistan and to do anythingthey can to protect their
rights.
One of the reasons that theAfghan civil society believed
that this is needed forAfghanistan was because of the
(13:41):
culture of impunity that hadbeen ongoing in the country for
decades.
There had never been a mechanismthat could document abuses and
could identify perpetrators.
For the past four and a halfyears, organizations had been
reporting about the Talibancoming up with all these abusive
laws and restrictions, but whoactually the Taliban are, who
(14:01):
within the Taliban leadership isresponsible for all of these
abuses, we didn't have names.
So that's why this mechanism isvery powerful.
It will go after the Talibanauthorities, it will go after
individuals, and it willidentify individual criminal
responsibilities.
It sends a strong message backto the Taliban in Afghanistan
that even their leadership canno longer protect them.
SPEAKER_08 (14:23):
And Sahar, too, is really hoping for
accountability.
SPEAKER_03 (14:27):
Obviously, I I welcome it like uh other
Afghan's.
Uh, I think it's importantbecause Afghanistan has been
going through decades of uhimpunity and lack of
accountability.
And I think that's the reasonwhy, one of the reasons why we
are where we are today.
It's really important to collectand safeguard evidence before
(14:49):
it's very late.
It's important for thismechanism to work towards uh
accountability and justice, andto have a gender-responsive and
victim-centered approach, andwith a scope that goes beyond
what's happening now and itlooks at different uh crimes
committed by different actors.
SPEAKER_08 (15:09):
What about this term gender apartheid?
The EU, although it wants thisfact-finding mission to focus
particularly on the situation ofwomen, it doesn't want to use
this term.
What do you think about that?
SPEAKER_03 (15:23):
Well, if um if if people re are really serious
about supporting Afron women andunderstand their struggles and
be helpful, they need tounderstand and learn from the
past that they should listen toAfghan women.
And to listen to Afghan women uhand to hear them is to
acknowledge their demand.
(15:44):
And Afghan women have been foryears talking about, even in the
90s, have been talking aboutgender apartheid and the crime
of apartheid.
When Afghan women are asking forgender apartheid to be
recognized as a crime againsthumanity, it's important because
they know that it will havemajor legal, political, and
(16:07):
moral uh implications.
SPEAKER_08 (16:08):
Legal, moral, and political implications?
How likely is that really, giventhe current geopolitical
climate?
I had another question forAmbassador Dyka Potzel.
You did say Europe wants to dowhat it can do.
Coming back to the United Statesagain, be honest with me.
Have you got a listening earthere about the situation for
(16:32):
women in Afghanistan?
Because we are seeing the US puta red line through mentions of
gender and diversity in nearlyall non-governmental
organization and UN programs.
SPEAKER_02 (16:46):
Yeah, we should talk to our American colleagues about
all the situation inAfghanistan.
And um we still have a gooddialogue on those issues.
That does not mean that thatwill reverse their take on
certain issues, but it is stillpossible to have that dialogue,
and we of course very muchwelcome that, and uh, and we use
(17:06):
those channels to make ourpoints and to explain how we
look at the situation and whatwe feel needs to be done to
hopefully improve that.
SPEAKER_08 (17:17):
All right, well, just take your ambassador's hat
off for a minute.
Are you dismayed as a woman thatthe debate has entered this kind
of zone?
SPEAKER_02 (17:26):
What kind of zone?
SPEAKER_08 (17:27):
Well, where references to supporting women's
rights are basically activelydisapproved of by big
international powers.
SPEAKER_02 (17:37):
Well, I keep saying, you know, as an ambassador and
as a woman, that women havefought for decades, if not
centuries, for their rights.
And that I also personally donot want to see a backpedaling
on those rights that we havefought for for so long, that uh
brave women before us havefought for so long.
(18:00):
So I think I'm I try to be veryvocal about that, um, also in my
private conversations or in mywork conversations also with
other colleagues, because reallyit is uh something that's very
close to my heart to defendwomen's rights here, but also of
course uh in contexts likeAfghanistan.
There's no way around it.
(18:20):
Yeah, but we have those frankconversations, and you can still
have them.
And uh as a woman, uh Idefinitely feel that we have to
have them, particularly withproponents of a different view,
with men, but uh also with womenwho um are also part of that
conversation of the other takeon things.
(18:41):
Let me put it like this.
SPEAKER_08 (18:43):
Right at the beginning, you talked about
pushing for the mechanismbecause you want to ensure
accountability.
Do you think that's likely?
I mean, we see that can take avery long time.
But for example, we have theMyanmar case at the ICJ right
now.
Women have gone there afteralmost a decade of waiting.
(19:05):
Does that does that give youheart?
SPEAKER_02 (19:07):
Absolutely.
And I'm really truly veryimpressed with what happened in
The Hague and that the courtproceedings are are ongoing in
the case of Myanmar and theRohingya crisis, of course.
And I can see your skepticism,right, um, on the on the
Afghanistan mechanism as well.
Yet I think it is definitely asign of hope for victims.
It is a possibility also to showperpetrators you are not going
(19:32):
unwatched.
And particularly something likethe Myanmar case now shows, even
if you think, you know, it'sbeen 20 years, it's been 10
years, or what have you, thereis justice coming.
And for people today, forperpetrators today, to
understand that this is apossibility is I think already a
powerful sign.
(19:53):
So not doing it to me is not anoption, really.
We need instruments that showvictims we are with you, and we
want you to succeed making yourcase and to the perpetrators
really to show them you areyou're being watched and justice
will be coming.
SPEAKER_08 (20:12):
Justice will be coming.
That's a hopeful thought.
But these cases are notoriousfor how long they take.
The brave Rohingya womentestifying at the International
Court of Justice in the genocidecase against Myanmar had to wait
almost 10 years.
And by the way, our next InsideGeneva, out on March 17th, is
(20:36):
all about that case.
Will Afghan women have to waitso long?
How does Sahar see the future?
SPEAKER_03 (20:44):
Well, um I often uh want to believe that having hope
in the face of oppression is isa form of resistance, and I
mostly try to live uh like that.
But sometimes it's really uhhard to stay committed to that.
(21:04):
Because in reality, right nowlooking at Afghanistan, I'm
really worried about the futureuh of my people, and I can't
imagine what the country wouldlook like in 10 years, in 15,
and in 20 and 30 years.
And I think that is somethingthat takes my my sleep away at
night and it makes me reallyanxious.
(21:25):
But ultimately I know that youknow it's important to have all
the international mechanisms andsystems in place and advocate
for better Afghanistan becauseAfghanistan is is a collective
mess and it's everyone'sresponsibility.
But I also firmly believe thatthe future of Afghanistan will
be shaped by its people.
(21:47):
And as women of Afghanistan, Ithink we've thoroughly
understood what oppression isand what it means, and how it's
connected to the estate and andthe to the Taliban.
And I think it's time for Afghanmen to understand.
That and to understand that ifwomen are oppressed, they are
oppressed as well.
I think the country will changeonce that understanding is
(22:07):
shared by many many people inAfghanistan.
And yeah, the oppressors willnot stay there forever.
But it's important that weunderstand what it takes and
that it takes a crack, cracksfrom within to end the
oppression.
So support from the UN.
SPEAKER_08 (22:28):
Get that fact-finding mission up and
running, please.
Support women in Afghanistan sothey can perhaps create some of
those cracks Sahar talked about.
But I imagine many of ourlisteners are also wondering
what they individually can do tohelp.
Ambassador Dyka Potzel has somesuggestions, but first she has a
(22:50):
message direct to Afghan womenand girls.
SPEAKER_02 (22:54):
I can just say that I deeply admire their resilience
and their strength.
It's for me very difficult toimagine what it's like to live
in those circumstances.
And we hear about, you know,growing numbers of suicide by
women, and it's so shocking.
So I just wish them all thestrength in the world.
(23:14):
I wish that they have thestrength not to give up hope
that things might change, andthat they get back to a life
where they can enjoy all thehuman rights that we all agreed
upon, and that they can livetheir life and their future,
shape their future the way theywant by having a decent
education, going to university,becoming a doctor, a lawyer, a
(23:37):
filmmaker, uh a nurse, whateverthey wish their life to be like,
wishing them all the very best.
And to say, do not think that wehave given up on you.
We are watching and we arereally carefully following
what's going on, and we reallywant to help you.
We want to help you, and we dothat in the framework that we
(23:59):
can, but we are there with you.
SPEAKER_08 (24:01):
On Inside Geneva, a lot of our listeners are women.
Many of them will be asking,what can I do to help?
They read about what's happeningin Afghanistan, they are angry,
upset about it.
What could they actually do?
I mean, it's just as you, youknow, some normal person,
teacher, social worker.
SPEAKER_02 (24:23):
Yeah, I always keep telling also younger people
don't complain, engage.
There are so many NGOs active inthat field.
So if this is really close toyour heart, look for one which
is close to you and then getengaged.
Talk about it, talk about it tofamily, talk about it to
friends, make people aware ofwhat you are concerned about and
(24:44):
what the situation is.
Write to media outlets.
Tell them, you know, I want toread more about this, and I'm
appalled by the situation, and Ididn't like that report or
whatever.
So we here in Europe, in Geneva,we have the wonderful
opportunity to actually make ourvoices heard and to be heard.
So use that chance, get engaged.
(25:05):
So I think there's plenty ofopportunity.
SPEAKER_07 (25:08):
Open your eyes and then do something.
Fareshta Abasi is doingsomething, and she's not giving
up.
SPEAKER_08 (25:15):
She has a message from the women who are still
inside Afghanistan, whose hopesare invested in justice.
If not now, then in the future.
SPEAKER_05 (25:25):
Last October, I was um actually approached by one of
the female journalists fromquite the rural area of
Afghanistan, not in one of thebig cities.
Um, she was living in one of therural provinces of Afghanistan,
and she apparently had watchedone of the side events that I
had spoken at, talking about themechanism.
I remember that day walking outof the UN building, um,
(25:46):
receiving a text message fromher saying that she had watched
the side event and she hadthought about it, and she thinks
that this mechanism will reallymake a change on the ground for
women.
And I asked her about it.
I asked her if she can give us acode because she told me that
she is in the country, shedoesn't have a voice, and she
asked me to speak for women ofAfghanistan.
(26:08):
And for me, that was quite anemotional moment because she was
a journalist, and I mean shegave us an eloquent code about
what this mechanism means.
She basically said that thismechanism will give hope to the
women of Afghanistan.
They know that if their storiesare being recorded, that the
pain that they're going throughthese days is not erasable and
(26:31):
it will be documented somewhere.
This will give them hope tosurvive these days.
SPEAKER_08 (26:36):
And in fact, you have that quote with you.
Why don't you you read it forus?
Sure.
SPEAKER_05 (26:41):
Okay, let's hope it's not gonna make me emotional
because every time I read thecode, I became emotional.
Justice may not come to ourlives today, but if our stories
are recorded, we have a chanceto get justice tomorrow.
That's why this mechanism isneeded.
This will give us hope andstrength to endure these
difficult days, knowing that wewill be able to hold some of the
(27:02):
Talmud leaders accountable, thatthese crimes are not
forgettable, and that oursuffering is not erased.
SPEAKER_08 (27:09):
You've waited several years for this
fact-finding mission.
What are your hopes now?
I'm sure you would at some pointlike to go back to your country.
Do you see that?
I mean, how do you see thefuture for Afghanistan in in the
next 10 years?
SPEAKER_05 (27:24):
It's very difficult to answer this question.
Imagine if somebody asked thisquestion from me in 2020.
I could not see the August 2021coming like that.
But I am still hopeful and Iwant to go back.
I definitely want to go back toAfghanistan.
The reason that I still work onthe country is because um I feel
that if there is one place inthis world that needs me the
(27:46):
most is Afghanistan.
And I am committed to be workingon that, and I am hopeful that I
will be able to go back and workfrom Afghanistan one day.
SPEAKER_08 (28:00):
And that brings us to the end of this edition of
Inside Geneva.
We hope you enjoyed the podcastand that you were inspired by
the courage and determination ofFareshta and Sahar.
A reminder that next time onInside Geneva, we'll be bringing
you an in-depth report on thecase of genocide against Myanmar
(28:22):
currently underway at theInternational Court of Justice,
where women are fighting forjustice for women.
SPEAKER_05 (28:29):
If you were in that court, I can assure you
international law is alive andit is fighting very hard.
SPEAKER_08 (28:40):
That's out on March 17th.
Do join us then.
A reminder (28:49):
you've been listening to Inside Geneva, a
Swiss Info production.
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
(29:13):
I'm Imogen Folks.
Thanks again for listening.
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Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.