May 12, 2026 • 31 mins
On Inside Geneva, we look at weapons contamination and the harm it causes.
“We have at least one casualty every single day in Afghanistan – someone killed or injured –and it is most likely a child,” says Nick Pond, from the UN Assistance Mission in Afghanistan.
From old conflicts to new.
“Ukraine is the breadbasket of Europe and billions of square metres of land are suspected to be contaminated, which means they can’t be farmed,” says Paul Heslop, from the UN Mine Action, Ukraine.
And from old weapons to new.
“This is proliferating well beyond Ukraine. Ukraine and Russia are the two leaders in drone technology, but the level of proliferation is scary,” says Sean Moorhouse, from Mine Action, UN Development Programme.
In response to Russian aggression, the Baltic states are pulling out of the landmine convention.
“We did not say yes to landmines; we said no to unilateral disarmament constructs,” says Jonatan Vseviov, Secretary General, Estonian Foreign Ministry.
But others are joining.
“We heard that Lebanon will be joining the convention. This is a massive achievement and a massive push for the convention itself,” says Rana Elias, from the Geneva International Centre for Humanitarian Demining.
As warfare changes, weapons contamination becomes more complicated. Who is responsible when a weapon fails to hit its target and harms someone years later? Who should pay for the clean‑up? And are we turning away from our opposition to indiscriminate weapons?
Join host Imogen Foulkes on Inside Geneva to listen to the full episode.
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Host: Imogen Foulkes
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_07 (00:00):
SwissInfo podcasts.
SPEAKER_05 (00:09):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_11 (00:26):
And this is what they're finding here.
We have at least one casualtyevery single day in Afghanistan
that's killed or injured.
And that casualty is most likelyto be a child.
SPEAKER_10 (00:35):
Since Russia's full-scale invasion began,
Ukraine has become one of themost mined countries in the
world.
SPEAKER_14 (00:43):
Ukraine is the breadbasket of Europe, and the
fact that at the moment thereare billions of square meters of
land that are suspected of beingcontaminated means that land
can't be farmed.
SPEAKER_15 (00:56):
This is proliferating well beyond
Ukraine.
Ukraine and Russia are the twoleaders in drone technology, but
the level of proliferation isscary.
SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
This is a massive achievement, and this is a
massive push to the conventionitself.
SPEAKER_05 (01:37):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
Now, regular listeners will knowthat from time to time we devote
a whole podcast to treaties thatchanged the world.
We've talked about theConvention Against Torture, the
Convention on EnforcedDisappearances, and in our very
(01:58):
first podcast like this, welooked at the Ottawa Convention
on Landmines.
Adopted in 1997, it is creditedwith saving tens of thousands of
lives.
More than two decades later,here's a little reminder of what
people told me about it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
We've had uh two weeks of very intense
negotiations.
We were never sure if uh if wewere going to get to a
successful conclusion or not,and when they brought down that
gavel in Oslo in September of1997, that was the most special
moment of my life.
SPEAKER_07 (02:30):
We were sitting in our little old dining room in
Hanompin, and suddenly the newscame on the BBC, and we started
shrieking and yelling, andeverybody was hopping around or
riding around in theirwheelchairs, just shouting for
joy.
SPEAKER_08 (02:45):
Personally, I was so happy.
The word had decided that theirlandmines were to be bad.
They had to be banned.
So that was an incrediblemoment.
So I mean I was so so happy.
SPEAKER_05 (03:07):
More than 160 countries have signed up, though
not the big powers like the US,Russia, and China.
And in the last couple of years,countries such as Poland,
Estonia, or Finland, especiallyexposed to possible Russian
aggression, have said they willleave the treaty.
(03:28):
What might that mean for warfareand for those working to clean
up mines and other weapons oncea conflict has ended?
Here at the UN in Geneva, theInternational Conference on Mine
Action has been taking place.
I went along to talk to theexperts there.
SPEAKER_11 (03:46):
My name's Nick Pond.
I'm the chief of the mine actionsection in UNAMA, which is the
UN assistance mission inAfghanistan.
SPEAKER_15 (03:52):
I'm Sean Moorhouse.
I work for the United NationsDevelopment Programme as a
technical advisor in the mineaction team.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
I'm Rana.
I'm working at the GenevaInternational Centre for
Humanitarianity Mining,supporting states that are
affected by the explosiveordinance, which includes a wide
range of items.
SPEAKER_14 (04:11):
My name's Paul Heslop, and I am the senior
advisor to the head of the UN inUkraine on mine action, so
everything to do with landminesand bomb disposal.
SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
We are on a mission following a demining squad in
southern Ukraine.
SPEAKER_05 (04:27):
Paul Heslop has decades of experience in mine
clearance.
Now he's working in Ukraine.
Some of the weapons may be new,but those most at risk have
stayed the same.
SPEAKER_14 (04:39):
Probably the most at-risk group, other than
certain the military, areteenage boys who have a tendency
to fiddle.
They've heard the messagingbefore again and again.
We've just had a project wherewe've helped the state emergency
services by donating virtualreality goggles.
And so those virtual realitygoggles, they go to schools,
(05:00):
high schools, and you know, thekids put them on and they're put
through a variety of scenariosin a virtual world to show them
how to avoid risk.
Now, a teenage boy being shown ashort video or a poster, perhaps
not so interested, get thevirtual reality goggles on and
suddenly you've got a degree ofexcitement.
SPEAKER_05 (05:17):
And Paul adds, while he's trying to stop Ukrainian
children being killed bylandmines, just the fact the
mines are there at all impactsthe entire planet.
SPEAKER_14 (05:30):
Ukraine is the is the breadbasket of Europe, and
the fact that at the momentthere are billions of square
meters of land that aresuspected of being contaminated,
that means that land can't befarmed.
That absence of productivity isaffecting global food prices.
So it's not just affectingUkraine's economy, it's
affecting every person in theworld.
(05:51):
You know, you're paying more foryour bread, more for your pasta,
more for your fuel because ofthe actual and the perceived
mine contamination problem inUkraine.
SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Afghanistan has one of the highest concentrations of
landmines in the world.
SPEAKER_04 (06:04):
Three months ago, 13-year-old Norse stepped on a
landmine while collectingfirewood.
Today she's walking on newartificial legs.
SPEAKER_05 (06:12):
And while Paul is working in a relatively new
conflict, Nick Pond is workingin Afghanistan.
Once called the Forever War,those who fought for decades
over the country have left alethal legacy that will take
years to clear.
SPEAKER_11 (06:41):
Over 70% of the casualties are children.
So with this old program thatwe've had, an experienced
program that we have, you know,we've got a great opportunity to
clear Afghanistan ofcontamination.
So, yes, trying to prevent thesecasualties, mostly kids, mostly
boys, playing with things theyfind while they're tending sheep
or their goats in the hills.
(07:03):
They'll pick something up andeither play with it or put it in
the fire or take it home, evenworse.
Last year in Farah, somebodytook something into a house and
killed seven members of thefamily.
So, yeah, that's my focus,really, is we've got an
incredibly high casualty rate,and we've got an opportunity to
lower that casualty rate.
So that's what it feels likemore than clearance.
SPEAKER_12 (07:24):
There's no peace in Lebanon.
A ceasefire between Hezbollahand Israel came into effect in
November, but the remnants ofwar keep killing.
SPEAKER_16 (07:31):
Lebanon has around 17.5 million square meters of
land covered in landmines.
SPEAKER_05 (07:37):
Like Nick, Rana Ellias of the Geneva Centre for
Humanitarian Demining is workingin a region where weapons
contamination has been a problemfor decades.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Take Lebanon again.
I mean, 2006, the conflict,there were massive efforts to
into clearance, clearing clustermunitions, and now it's all over
again in terms of destruction,in terms of uh recovery.
But I think we have to maintainhope and we have to persist in
our work as a whole community,as a whole mine action community
(08:20):
per se.
It may seem impossible.
The challenges are so immense,not only in terms of the scale,
in terms of the lack of funding,but also in terms of the
civilian uh harm that has beeninflicted, in terms of children
being uh killed or maimed.
Take Syria, as you say.
Um Syria just from the fall ofthe previous regime, from
(08:44):
December 2024 up until recently,these are, I would say, more
than 2,000 uh injuries civilian,uh including a high number of
children, mostly uh in rural andagricultural areas.
Just to give an idea about thescale also in Syria.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
This is one of tens of thousands of potential time
bombs lying in Ukraine.
SPEAKER_13 (09:17):
That is the view from the Russian drain.
SPEAKER_05 (09:22):
As I said at the start, this conference is about
mines, and let's remember theOttawa Convention deals with
only one kind of mine, theanti-personnel land mine.
But in fact, the experts hereare discussing all sorts of
weapons.
Warfare is changing, weapons arebecoming more autonomous, but
(09:44):
some things all weapons have incommon, they're not always
reliable, and they can liearound unexploded for years
after a conflict has ended.
Sean Moorehouse is a mindspecialist with the UN
development program.
He told me what he'd seen inUkraine.
SPEAKER_15 (10:03):
We have weaponized drones.
There's a massive variety ofdifferent types of drones.
Everyone thinks about drones asflying unmanned aerial vehicles,
but we have ground drones, wehave unmanned surface vessels,
ships, we have underwater, andall of them can be used to
deliver explosives.
SPEAKER_05 (10:20):
So what is it then that concerns you in relation to
these weapons that brings you tothis particular conference?
SPEAKER_15 (10:31):
Well, I think particularly when we take into
account the UAVs, what we'reseeing is a democratization of
the skies in a way.
Previously only states hadaccess to sort of aircraft and
and that sort of thing, and nowanybody can pick up a hobby
drone, put a warheader on it, anexplosive warhead on it, and fly
it into a target.
(10:51):
So anybody can attack almost anytarget.
SPEAKER_05 (10:54):
So it's the if we talk about international law and
one of the reasons, say thelandmine convention was brought
in was the concept of nodiscrimination, lack of
discrimination.
Is that is that your concernwith drones as well?
SPEAKER_15 (11:12):
Yes.
Ukraine produced two and a halfmillion FPV first-person view
drones last year, and 70% ofthem failed to go off, which
means we now have 1.75 millionunexploded drones just from the
Ukrainian side.
So they they are a hazard inthemselves, just like any other
form of explosive ordinances.
SPEAKER_05 (11:33):
So that's going to be a massive cleanup operation
as well, as with landmines.
And they are, I suppose, thenthe skills become similar, the
teams become similar.
SPEAKER_15 (11:42):
They do, but the improvised nature of drones
means that each one is assemblesslightly differently, and that
requires a higher level oftraining to deal with.
So it takes longer to trainpeople to deal with this threat.
It's a new threat, and weactually need to develop the
training that's appropriate.
SPEAKER_05 (12:02):
Meanwhile, these things are being used, failing,
landing.
The cleanup job, I mean, youmust have seen quite a few what
it takes to decontaminate land.
That's going to be huge inUkraine.
SPEAKER_15 (12:15):
It's an absolutely massive problem.
And in addition, because so manydrones were being jammed, they
started using fiber optic cablesto control them, which stops
them being jammed.
But that leaves just anabsolutely horrific number of
fiber optic cables, which go for60 kilometers now, littering the
(12:35):
landscape, so much so peoplecan't walk across fields.
Farmers can't farm their fields.
We can't do the demining becausewe can't get through these
cables.
It's incredible.
SPEAKER_05 (12:47):
At the same time, funding for demining is being
reduced.
SPEAKER_15 (12:53):
Yes, we are struggling to get anything near
the resources we need.
And I'm talking about drones.
I'm not talking necessarilyabout drones in Ukraine.
And between January and Marchthis year, 38 countries actually
had a weaponized drone attack.
So this is proliferating wellbeyond Ukraine.
Ukraine and Russia are the twoleaders in drone technology,
(13:16):
driven by war, as you know issomewhat inevitable in human
history.
But the level of proliferationis scary.
SPEAKER_05 (13:24):
But while those like Sean, Nick, Paul, or Rana, who
specialize in weaponsdecontamination, worry about
proliferation and yet moredecades of cleanup, some
countries, as we said at thebeginning, are leaving the
Ottawa Convention.
And it's only right to heartheir reasons.
SPEAKER_09 (13:45):
My name is Jonathan Seviov.
I'm the Secretary General of theEstonian Foreign Ministry.
SPEAKER_05 (13:49):
Jonathan Seviov is number two with Estonian's
foreign ministry, and he wantsthe world to understand why his
country has taken the difficultdecision to leave the Ottawa
Convention.
SPEAKER_09 (14:01):
We did not say yes to landmines.
We said no to unilateraldisarmament constructs.
In the context of Russia'songoing war of aggression in
Ukraine, the goal of which hasnot changed, and is not limited
to Eastern Ukraine or even allof Ukraine, which Putin wants to
(14:23):
subjugate, to recreate hisempire.
It's not just Ukraine's fatethat will be decided in Ukraine.
It's also Europe's.
Because this idea of empire thatPutin pursues, this uh root
cause to this war, which is hisinability to accept that the
Soviet Union collapsed, is goingto shape Europe, not just in the
(14:46):
eastern part of the continent,but the idea of Europe.
Because the uh idea of empireand the idea of Europe that
we've been pursuing just simplydon't fit in the same space and
time.
So this is the reality that'sout there.
We are as opposed to landminesas anybody else.
We know the cost of these weaponsystems.
(15:10):
We also know that, God forbid,if military force were to be
used against us, those weaponsystems would be used against us
because the Russians don'tadhere to these limitations.
So we are confident in uh ourability to defend Estonia.
We are confident in assessingthat currently there is no acute
(15:33):
military danger on our borders,partly because frankly the
Russians are all stuck inUkraine.
But then again, we are fullyawake to the enormous challenge
that Russia presents, not to usbut to all of Europe, and are
not going to entertainunilateral limits to our ability
to defend freedom in Australia.
SPEAKER_05 (15:55):
Okay, so you said that unilateral disarmament is a
strategy you you don't reallysubscribe to.
But on a practical level, wouldlandmines actually help your
security?
Because some people disputethat.
SPEAKER_09 (16:09):
So um the last time I checked with our defense
specialist, with my colleaguesuh over at the Ministry of
Defense or the Defense Forces,they had no plans for acquiring
landmines, no plans for uh usinglandmines for the defense of
Estonia.
So I trust the military experts,the expertise that's housed
within our defense structures.
(16:30):
And as of right now, there isthe answer to your question is
uh affirmative.
We we agree there uh is noutility at this stage for those
weapon systems.
It might change tomorrow or orin a week's time, and then we'll
let the world know.
But as of now, there are noplans on actually using the
weapons.
SPEAKER_05 (16:48):
Just broadening, also maybe a little bit outside
of Estonia.
One of the things that thepeople who work in demining, and
it it's it's far broader nowthan anti-personnel landmines,
is the massive, massive cleanupoperation that's going to be
needed in Ukraine because ofunexploded ordnance, these tales
(17:12):
from drones who are trying toavoid the radar, that there's
thousands and thousands andthousands of acres of land that
can't be cultivated.
SPEAKER_09 (17:20):
Indeed.
So when we think about this war,we oftentimes seem to make the
mistake of assuming that oncethe war ends, the problems
disappear.
It's not going to be the case.
You're absolutely right.
So even in the best casescenario of us succeeding, let's
say today, in um pushing Russiato reassess their strategy
(17:40):
vis-a-vis Ukraine and vis-a-visEurope, and pull itself back to
within its internationalrecognized borders, which is the
ultimate goal of our policy,nothing more but nothing less,
then uh Ukraine will requireenormous assistance from
international partners in termsof cleaning up, but also in
terms of providing a frameworkfor security, for economic
(18:02):
development, reconstruction, andum stabilizing their democracy.
In many ways it's going to besimilar to what Western Europe
faced after the end of theSecond World War.
SPEAKER_06 (18:14):
The United Nations has sounded the alarm as
landmine deaths rise amidfunding cuts to demining
programs.
SPEAKER_05 (18:19):
But who is ready to fund a Marshall Plan these days?
In fact, money for mineclearance, like other
humanitarian operations, isbeing cut back.
Nick Pond's experience inAfghanistan is a lesson in how
challenging and how long termthe work can be.
SPEAKER_11 (18:37):
It is a bit of a sisophean task at times, um
particularly at the moment.
There's a conflict ongoing withPakistan, which has potentially
recontaminated 39 districtsalong the border, and now we're
trying to find money and getaccess for teams to go out to
check those districts which haverecently been contaminated.
So it is frustrating, especiallywhen we see some of the
casualties, statistics, andstories coming in on such a
(18:59):
regular basis.
SPEAKER_05 (19:00):
What's your thinking?
I mean, I mean you know you'realso former military, that
warfare is is changing.
We've got a lot of newtechnology, and a lot of the
people that I've talked to todayhave raised the issue of drones
posing very similar ethicalproblems, which led to the ban
on anti-personnel land mines.
(19:21):
Do you see that maybe you clearthe mines, but then there's
going to be a whole new I mean,we have the most advanced
militaries in the world racingto get this technology.
SPEAKER_11 (19:30):
Well, what's interesting in Afghanistan and
depressing at the same time is90% of the casualties in
Afghanistan are from explosiveremnants of war.
So the issue we have is stuffthat's lying around, either
things that have been fired andhaven't exploded, stuff people
have buried when they closeddown barracks, or stuff that's
just been discarded and lost.
We had an incident in Novemberlast year when a family came
(19:51):
across the border from Pakistanto an informal transit centre in
Kabul.
And because they arrived late atnight, the transit centre was
closed.
So they moved across to a patchof ground in Kabul, surrounded
by houses, a place where peopleplay cricket all the time, but
it happens to be a former Sovietmilitary barracks that was
knocked down decades ago.
They built a fire to keep warm,it was November, and unbeknown
(20:12):
to them, there was a rocket fuseunderneath the ground under the
bush they were burning.
It detonated and seven childrenended up in hospital.
So it is it's that sort ofcontamination that we have an
issue with at the in Afghanistanat the moment.
90% of the casualties are fromincidents like that.
So we don't suffer from thetechnology of drones at the
moment and their impact becauseit's not really there is a
(20:33):
little bit involved in thecurrent conflict, but not
massively really.
We're on traditional artilleryshelling.
Our contamination is reallylegacy contamination, but
exactly the same problems applyin that munitions don't always
detonate, they certainly don'talways land where intended, and
they are there for years andyears and years to come
following the conflict.
SPEAKER_05 (20:53):
So although we still have a convention against
anti-personnel landmines, and wehave a convention on explosive
remnants of war, which requiresparties to a conflict to clean
up leftover weapons, there arestill vast quantities of
unexploded ordnance, fromAfghanistan to Ukraine, Syria,
(21:15):
Myanmar, Bosnia, Cambodia, Laos,Lebanon, Iraq, and many other
places.
Paul Heslop would like us tothink differently, not about
particular weapons in isolation,but what they and those who use
them and produce them actuallydo.
SPEAKER_14 (22:01):
I think all of these weapon systems, there are two
parts to it.
Is the weapon system beingdeployed in a combat situation
against a legitimate target?
And if that is the case, thenwhether you're using artillery,
direct fire, cluster munitions,even remotely deployed explosive
devices, and they're against amilitary target within the rules
(22:22):
of war, that is one thing.
And if their use is properlydocumented, you know, the
weather conditions, the soilconditions, the wind, and the
number of munitions used, thetarget area, all of that is
recorded, then making thecleanup afterwards is relatively
straightforward.
You know, it just becomes atechnical exercise.
Where the problems come about isnone of that data is gathered,
(22:45):
but more importantly, is eitherthe weapon system is being used
indiscriminately againstcivilian targets, particularly
in urban areas, that is aserious problem.
And that is something we'restarting to see now as drones in
Ukraine have a bigger and biggerpayload and a longer and longer
range, you know, we're nowseeing civilian communities in
the west of Ukraine beingtargeted.
(23:07):
Is that a 30 to 50 kilo warhead,or is that as a carrier device
carrying submunitions that arethen indiscriminately scattered
over an area?
And then those items that arescattered, do they explode on
impact?
Is there a time delay, or isthere a victim-operated
mechanism?
You know, all of those fallunder treaties, and again, and
(23:28):
if they're being used in anindiscriminate way on civilian
targets, it's a war crime.
So, you know, is the weaponbeing used correctly?
How is it that we can haveweapon systems where 10% is
considered a good fail rate?
And you know, in some caseswe're seeing some of the North
Korean artillery have a 40% failrate.
So if you're firing a thousandshells a day, that's 400
(23:49):
unexploded bombs.
After 1,500 days, that's 6million unexploded bombs because
of the failure just lying aroundbecause they were not
manufactured to the sametolerances that we expect from a
fridge or a Toyota.
So, you know, we've got theseincredibly complex, incredibly
expensive weapon systems thatfail to function as designed.
Now, if that is fired at atarget that is a military target
(24:14):
and it functions, it's not aproblem because it's gone bang.
If it hasn't gone bang, themilitary target goes off, the
conflict comes to an end, kidscome to that area, start playing
with it, it's suddenly become anindiscriminate weapon.
So, you know, why are we noteither expecting the weapons
manufacturers to build theweapons to a higher quality with
better tolerances, or they haveto pay a fee for clearing them
(24:36):
up?
If an oil tanker spillsoil-through incompetence, the
oil company pays for thecleanup.
Why do we not see the weaponsmanufacturers paying for the
cleanup of their weapon systemsthat were legitimately used
against a military target butthen failed and then became an
indiscriminate tool?
SPEAKER_05 (24:52):
And Sean Moorehouse, too, believes our laws are
playing catch-up.
SPEAKER_15 (24:56):
The Ottawa Convention just applies to
anti-personnel mines, so it'squite specific.
However, drones will dropanti-personnel mines.
They drop 3D printed mines orthey drop old Soviet stocks of
what we call the butterfly mine,and they can now deliver them
anywhere.
So you can have a cargo drone goand lay a minefield overnight in
(25:18):
a place where you would neverexpect to find a minefield.
So there is a there's atechnical problem in finding
those and clearing them.
We have conventions, there's theconvention on certain
conventional weapons, whichwould cover items laid by drones
that we would classify as sortof improvised explosive devices,
(25:40):
or that they function like ananti-personnel mine would.
So the conventions are therethat covers the drone stuff
mostly, but when it comes to AItargeting, we completely lack
actually the laws to deal withthat.
If you have a human in the killchain, that would be too slow.
(26:01):
If you're up against an opponentwho does not have the same
ethical considerations and doesnot have a human in the kill
chain, so it is a really, reallybig problem.
SPEAKER_05 (26:11):
Our government's listening to the concerns of
people like yourself?
SPEAKER_15 (26:18):
To be honest, we have only just started raising
these concerns, quite frankly.
SPEAKER_05 (26:24):
And do you think we're in the right frame of mind
globally to deal with it rightnow?
SPEAKER_15 (26:31):
Yes, I do.
I think it has taken a number ofyears for the West to wake up to
the fact that drones haverevolutionized warfare, but also
that they need to deal with themin some way.
So I do think states arestarting to address the issue
now and take it much moreseriously than just a year or
two ago.
SPEAKER_05 (26:51):
All these concerns add up, for Paul Heslop at
least, to a pretty pessimistictake on where we are.
SPEAKER_14 (26:58):
Honestly, uh if you'd said to me five years ago
you'll be working in Ukraine,you know, having never worked in
a outside the Balkans in aEuropean country before, if
you'd told me that um therewould be a war in Iran five
years ago, I would not havebelieved that possible.
I mean, I've spent over 30 yearsin this sector, and for for 25
years we were really winning thebattle.
(27:20):
We were clearing way more minesand way more explosive devices
than were being used.
And in the last five years wehave seen that reversed
catastrophically.
You know, and it is going tocost many millions, if not
billions of dollars to clean upthe mess that has been made in
the last five years.
SPEAKER_05 (27:36):
These are points Estonia's Jonathan Sefio hears
loud and clear.
His country's departure from thelandmine convention may only be
temporary, and so far there areno plans to use landmines.
Meanwhile, his governmentremains committed to supporting
Ukraine, and that includes acleanup of weapons.
SPEAKER_09 (27:58):
The cleanup of ordinance is part of this story.
Reconstructing Ukraine isanother part of this story,
providing for security anotherpart of the story, and most
importantly, bearing in mindthat in big political strategic
developments like the one thatwe're discussing here, hope is
amongst the most valuable ofresources.
(28:19):
Hope today during war keeps theUkrainians afloat.
Hope once war is over, hope thatthey can one day live a normal
European life is going to be atleast as important.
If we as Europe want to play astrategic role in shaping our
own future, then we need to bethe ones who become comfortable
(28:41):
again with concepts likeproviding hope, defining the
future, taking a claim in thesort of future our own continent
has.
SPEAKER_05 (28:52):
And here at Inside Geneva, we like to provide some
hope too.
So we'll leave you with the newsthat during that mine
conference, we heard that whilesome countries are leaving,
Lebanon will be joining theOttawa Treaty.
For Rana, that's a huge andpositive step by her home
country.
SPEAKER_02 (29:11):
We heard that Lebanon will be joining the
convention.
This is a massive achievementand this is a massive push to
the to the convention itself.
In a way, we should perhapsmaybe twist the narrative a bit.
Because when we speak a lot thatthe convention is is under
(29:32):
pressure, I think hasn't italways been under pressure?
I think also the way we areframing things, you know, we
should we should try to work ona more positive narrative,
counter-argue in a way why weneed IHL, why we need these
norms, why we need protection ofcivilians.
(29:54):
And it's actually more costly,you know.
Imagine how much money and time,and in addition to, of course,
the civilian harm inflicted, howmuch these conflicts are
costing.
We should invest in education,we should invest in health, we
should invest in other sectors.
And exactly we should invest inlobbying, in advocating for more
(30:17):
states to join the convention.
It is under pressure, but Ithink, yeah, it's a success
story that Lamanon is joining,and these are the narratives
that we should build our storiesalso around and make sure these
are celebrated.
SPEAKER_05 (30:38):
And that brings us to the end of this edition of
Inside Geneva.
My thanks to everyone who tookpart, and to you for listening.
A reminder you've been listeningto Inside Geneva, a Swiss info
production.
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
(30:59):
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
I'm Imogen folks.
Thanks again for listening.
SwissInfo podcasts.
SPEAKER_05 (00:09):
This is Inside Geneva.
I'm your host, Imogen Folkes,and this is a production from
SwissInfo, the internationalpublic media company of
Switzerland.
In today's program.
SPEAKER_11 (00:26):
And this is what they're finding here.
We have at least one casualtyevery single day in Afghanistan
that's killed or injured.
And that casualty is most likelyto be a child.
SPEAKER_10 (00:35):
Since Russia's full-scale invasion began,
Ukraine has become one of themost mined countries in the
world.
SPEAKER_14 (00:43):
Ukraine is the breadbasket of Europe, and the
fact that at the moment thereare billions of square meters of
land that are suspected of beingcontaminated means that land
can't be farmed.
SPEAKER_15 (00:56):
This is proliferating well beyond
Ukraine.
Ukraine and Russia are the twoleaders in drone technology, but
the level of proliferation isscary.
SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
This is a massive achievement, and this is a
massive push to the conventionitself.
SPEAKER_05 (01:37):
Hello and welcome again to Inside Geneva.
Now, regular listeners will knowthat from time to time we devote
a whole podcast to treaties thatchanged the world.
We've talked about theConvention Against Torture, the
Convention on EnforcedDisappearances, and in our very
(01:58):
first podcast like this, welooked at the Ottawa Convention
on Landmines.
Adopted in 1997, it is creditedwith saving tens of thousands of
lives.
More than two decades later,here's a little reminder of what
people told me about it.
SPEAKER_01 (02:17):
We've had uh two weeks of very intense
negotiations.
We were never sure if uh if wewere going to get to a
successful conclusion or not,and when they brought down that
gavel in Oslo in September of1997, that was the most special
moment of my life.
SPEAKER_07 (02:30):
We were sitting in our little old dining room in
Hanompin, and suddenly the newscame on the BBC, and we started
shrieking and yelling, andeverybody was hopping around or
riding around in theirwheelchairs, just shouting for
joy.
SPEAKER_08 (02:45):
Personally, I was so happy.
The word had decided that theirlandmines were to be bad.
They had to be banned.
So that was an incrediblemoment.
So I mean I was so so happy.
SPEAKER_05 (03:07):
More than 160 countries have signed up, though
not the big powers like the US,Russia, and China.
And in the last couple of years,countries such as Poland,
Estonia, or Finland, especiallyexposed to possible Russian
aggression, have said they willleave the treaty.
(03:28):
What might that mean for warfareand for those working to clean
up mines and other weapons oncea conflict has ended?
Here at the UN in Geneva, theInternational Conference on Mine
Action has been taking place.
I went along to talk to theexperts there.
SPEAKER_11 (03:46):
My name's Nick Pond.
I'm the chief of the mine actionsection in UNAMA, which is the
UN assistance mission inAfghanistan.
SPEAKER_15 (03:52):
I'm Sean Moorhouse.
I work for the United NationsDevelopment Programme as a
technical advisor in the mineaction team.
SPEAKER_02 (03:59):
I'm Rana.
I'm working at the GenevaInternational Centre for
Humanitarianity Mining,supporting states that are
affected by the explosiveordinance, which includes a wide
range of items.
SPEAKER_14 (04:11):
My name's Paul Heslop, and I am the senior
advisor to the head of the UN inUkraine on mine action, so
everything to do with landminesand bomb disposal.
SPEAKER_03 (04:22):
We are on a mission following a demining squad in
southern Ukraine.
SPEAKER_05 (04:27):
Paul Heslop has decades of experience in mine
clearance.
Now he's working in Ukraine.
Some of the weapons may be new,but those most at risk have
stayed the same.
SPEAKER_14 (04:39):
Probably the most at-risk group, other than
certain the military, areteenage boys who have a tendency
to fiddle.
They've heard the messagingbefore again and again.
We've just had a project wherewe've helped the state emergency
services by donating virtualreality goggles.
And so those virtual realitygoggles, they go to schools,
(05:00):
high schools, and you know, thekids put them on and they're put
through a variety of scenariosin a virtual world to show them
how to avoid risk.
Now, a teenage boy being shown ashort video or a poster, perhaps
not so interested, get thevirtual reality goggles on and
suddenly you've got a degree ofexcitement.
SPEAKER_05 (05:17):
And Paul adds, while he's trying to stop Ukrainian
children being killed bylandmines, just the fact the
mines are there at all impactsthe entire planet.
SPEAKER_14 (05:30):
Ukraine is the is the breadbasket of Europe, and
the fact that at the momentthere are billions of square
meters of land that aresuspected of being contaminated,
that means that land can't befarmed.
That absence of productivity isaffecting global food prices.
So it's not just affectingUkraine's economy, it's
affecting every person in theworld.
(05:51):
You know, you're paying more foryour bread, more for your pasta,
more for your fuel because ofthe actual and the perceived
mine contamination problem inUkraine.
SPEAKER_00 (05:59):
Afghanistan has one of the highest concentrations of
landmines in the world.
SPEAKER_04 (06:04):
Three months ago, 13-year-old Norse stepped on a
landmine while collectingfirewood.
Today she's walking on newartificial legs.
SPEAKER_05 (06:12):
And while Paul is working in a relatively new
conflict, Nick Pond is workingin Afghanistan.
Once called the Forever War,those who fought for decades
over the country have left alethal legacy that will take
years to clear.
SPEAKER_11 (06:41):
Over 70% of the casualties are children.
So with this old program thatwe've had, an experienced
program that we have, you know,we've got a great opportunity to
clear Afghanistan ofcontamination.
So, yes, trying to prevent thesecasualties, mostly kids, mostly
boys, playing with things theyfind while they're tending sheep
or their goats in the hills.
(07:03):
They'll pick something up andeither play with it or put it in
the fire or take it home, evenworse.
Last year in Farah, somebodytook something into a house and
killed seven members of thefamily.
So, yeah, that's my focus,really, is we've got an
incredibly high casualty rate,and we've got an opportunity to
lower that casualty rate.
So that's what it feels likemore than clearance.
SPEAKER_12 (07:24):
There's no peace in Lebanon.
A ceasefire between Hezbollahand Israel came into effect in
November, but the remnants ofwar keep killing.
SPEAKER_16 (07:31):
Lebanon has around 17.5 million square meters of
land covered in landmines.
SPEAKER_05 (07:37):
Like Nick, Rana Ellias of the Geneva Centre for
Humanitarian Demining is workingin a region where weapons
contamination has been a problemfor decades.
SPEAKER_02 (07:59):
Take Lebanon again.
I mean, 2006, the conflict,there were massive efforts to
into clearance, clearing clustermunitions, and now it's all over
again in terms of destruction,in terms of uh recovery.
But I think we have to maintainhope and we have to persist in
our work as a whole community,as a whole mine action community
(08:20):
per se.
It may seem impossible.
The challenges are so immense,not only in terms of the scale,
in terms of the lack of funding,but also in terms of the
civilian uh harm that has beeninflicted, in terms of children
being uh killed or maimed.
Take Syria, as you say.
Um Syria just from the fall ofthe previous regime, from
(08:44):
December 2024 up until recently,these are, I would say, more
than 2,000 uh injuries civilian,uh including a high number of
children, mostly uh in rural andagricultural areas.
Just to give an idea about thescale also in Syria.
SPEAKER_03 (09:10):
This is one of tens of thousands of potential time
bombs lying in Ukraine.
SPEAKER_13 (09:17):
That is the view from the Russian drain.
SPEAKER_05 (09:22):
As I said at the start, this conference is about
mines, and let's remember theOttawa Convention deals with
only one kind of mine, theanti-personnel land mine.
But in fact, the experts hereare discussing all sorts of
weapons.
Warfare is changing, weapons arebecoming more autonomous, but
(09:44):
some things all weapons have incommon, they're not always
reliable, and they can liearound unexploded for years
after a conflict has ended.
Sean Moorehouse is a mindspecialist with the UN
development program.
He told me what he'd seen inUkraine.
SPEAKER_15 (10:03):
We have weaponized drones.
There's a massive variety ofdifferent types of drones.
Everyone thinks about drones asflying unmanned aerial vehicles,
but we have ground drones, wehave unmanned surface vessels,
ships, we have underwater, andall of them can be used to
deliver explosives.
SPEAKER_05 (10:20):
So what is it then that concerns you in relation to
these weapons that brings you tothis particular conference?
SPEAKER_15 (10:31):
Well, I think particularly when we take into
account the UAVs, what we'reseeing is a democratization of
the skies in a way.
Previously only states hadaccess to sort of aircraft and
and that sort of thing, and nowanybody can pick up a hobby
drone, put a warheader on it, anexplosive warhead on it, and fly
it into a target.
(10:51):
So anybody can attack almost anytarget.
SPEAKER_05 (10:54):
So it's the if we talk about international law and
one of the reasons, say thelandmine convention was brought
in was the concept of nodiscrimination, lack of
discrimination.
Is that is that your concernwith drones as well?
SPEAKER_15 (11:12):
Yes.
Ukraine produced two and a halfmillion FPV first-person view
drones last year, and 70% ofthem failed to go off, which
means we now have 1.75 millionunexploded drones just from the
Ukrainian side.
So they they are a hazard inthemselves, just like any other
form of explosive ordinances.
SPEAKER_05 (11:33):
So that's going to be a massive cleanup operation
as well, as with landmines.
And they are, I suppose, thenthe skills become similar, the
teams become similar.
SPEAKER_15 (11:42):
They do, but the improvised nature of drones
means that each one is assemblesslightly differently, and that
requires a higher level oftraining to deal with.
So it takes longer to trainpeople to deal with this threat.
It's a new threat, and weactually need to develop the
training that's appropriate.
SPEAKER_05 (12:02):
Meanwhile, these things are being used, failing,
landing.
The cleanup job, I mean, youmust have seen quite a few what
it takes to decontaminate land.
That's going to be huge inUkraine.
SPEAKER_15 (12:15):
It's an absolutely massive problem.
And in addition, because so manydrones were being jammed, they
started using fiber optic cablesto control them, which stops
them being jammed.
But that leaves just anabsolutely horrific number of
fiber optic cables, which go for60 kilometers now, littering the
(12:35):
landscape, so much so peoplecan't walk across fields.
Farmers can't farm their fields.
We can't do the demining becausewe can't get through these
cables.
It's incredible.
SPEAKER_05 (12:47):
At the same time, funding for demining is being
reduced.
SPEAKER_15 (12:53):
Yes, we are struggling to get anything near
the resources we need.
And I'm talking about drones.
I'm not talking necessarilyabout drones in Ukraine.
And between January and Marchthis year, 38 countries actually
had a weaponized drone attack.
So this is proliferating wellbeyond Ukraine.
Ukraine and Russia are the twoleaders in drone technology,
(13:16):
driven by war, as you know issomewhat inevitable in human
history.
But the level of proliferationis scary.
SPEAKER_05 (13:24):
But while those like Sean, Nick, Paul, or Rana, who
specialize in weaponsdecontamination, worry about
proliferation and yet moredecades of cleanup, some
countries, as we said at thebeginning, are leaving the
Ottawa Convention.
And it's only right to heartheir reasons.
SPEAKER_09 (13:45):
My name is Jonathan Seviov.
I'm the Secretary General of theEstonian Foreign Ministry.
SPEAKER_05 (13:49):
Jonathan Seviov is number two with Estonian's
foreign ministry, and he wantsthe world to understand why his
country has taken the difficultdecision to leave the Ottawa
Convention.
SPEAKER_09 (14:01):
We did not say yes to landmines.
We said no to unilateraldisarmament constructs.
In the context of Russia'songoing war of aggression in
Ukraine, the goal of which hasnot changed, and is not limited
to Eastern Ukraine or even allof Ukraine, which Putin wants to
(14:23):
subjugate, to recreate hisempire.
It's not just Ukraine's fatethat will be decided in Ukraine.
It's also Europe's.
Because this idea of empire thatPutin pursues, this uh root
cause to this war, which is hisinability to accept that the
Soviet Union collapsed, is goingto shape Europe, not just in the
(14:46):
eastern part of the continent,but the idea of Europe.
Because the uh idea of empireand the idea of Europe that
we've been pursuing just simplydon't fit in the same space and
time.
So this is the reality that'sout there.
We are as opposed to landminesas anybody else.
We know the cost of these weaponsystems.
(15:10):
We also know that, God forbid,if military force were to be
used against us, those weaponsystems would be used against us
because the Russians don'tadhere to these limitations.
So we are confident in uh ourability to defend Estonia.
We are confident in assessingthat currently there is no acute
(15:33):
military danger on our borders,partly because frankly the
Russians are all stuck inUkraine.
But then again, we are fullyawake to the enormous challenge
that Russia presents, not to usbut to all of Europe, and are
not going to entertainunilateral limits to our ability
to defend freedom in Australia.
SPEAKER_05 (15:55):
Okay, so you said that unilateral disarmament is a
strategy you you don't reallysubscribe to.
But on a practical level, wouldlandmines actually help your
security?
Because some people disputethat.
SPEAKER_09 (16:09):
So um the last time I checked with our defense
specialist, with my colleaguesuh over at the Ministry of
Defense or the Defense Forces,they had no plans for acquiring
landmines, no plans for uh usinglandmines for the defense of
Estonia.
So I trust the military experts,the expertise that's housed
within our defense structures.
(16:30):
And as of right now, there isthe answer to your question is
uh affirmative.
We we agree there uh is noutility at this stage for those
weapon systems.
It might change tomorrow or orin a week's time, and then we'll
let the world know.
But as of now, there are noplans on actually using the
weapons.
SPEAKER_05 (16:48):
Just broadening, also maybe a little bit outside
of Estonia.
One of the things that thepeople who work in demining, and
it it's it's far broader nowthan anti-personnel landmines,
is the massive, massive cleanupoperation that's going to be
needed in Ukraine because ofunexploded ordnance, these tales
(17:12):
from drones who are trying toavoid the radar, that there's
thousands and thousands andthousands of acres of land that
can't be cultivated.
SPEAKER_09 (17:20):
Indeed.
So when we think about this war,we oftentimes seem to make the
mistake of assuming that oncethe war ends, the problems
disappear.
It's not going to be the case.
You're absolutely right.
So even in the best casescenario of us succeeding, let's
say today, in um pushing Russiato reassess their strategy
(17:40):
vis-a-vis Ukraine and vis-a-visEurope, and pull itself back to
within its internationalrecognized borders, which is the
ultimate goal of our policy,nothing more but nothing less,
then uh Ukraine will requireenormous assistance from
international partners in termsof cleaning up, but also in
terms of providing a frameworkfor security, for economic
(18:02):
development, reconstruction, andum stabilizing their democracy.
In many ways it's going to besimilar to what Western Europe
faced after the end of theSecond World War.
SPEAKER_06 (18:14):
The United Nations has sounded the alarm as
landmine deaths rise amidfunding cuts to demining
programs.
SPEAKER_05 (18:19):
But who is ready to fund a Marshall Plan these days?
In fact, money for mineclearance, like other
humanitarian operations, isbeing cut back.
Nick Pond's experience inAfghanistan is a lesson in how
challenging and how long termthe work can be.
SPEAKER_11 (18:37):
It is a bit of a sisophean task at times, um
particularly at the moment.
There's a conflict ongoing withPakistan, which has potentially
recontaminated 39 districtsalong the border, and now we're
trying to find money and getaccess for teams to go out to
check those districts which haverecently been contaminated.
So it is frustrating, especiallywhen we see some of the
casualties, statistics, andstories coming in on such a
(18:59):
regular basis.
SPEAKER_05 (19:00):
What's your thinking?
I mean, I mean you know you'realso former military, that
warfare is is changing.
We've got a lot of newtechnology, and a lot of the
people that I've talked to todayhave raised the issue of drones
posing very similar ethicalproblems, which led to the ban
on anti-personnel land mines.
(19:21):
Do you see that maybe you clearthe mines, but then there's
going to be a whole new I mean,we have the most advanced
militaries in the world racingto get this technology.
SPEAKER_11 (19:30):
Well, what's interesting in Afghanistan and
depressing at the same time is90% of the casualties in
Afghanistan are from explosiveremnants of war.
So the issue we have is stuffthat's lying around, either
things that have been fired andhaven't exploded, stuff people
have buried when they closeddown barracks, or stuff that's
just been discarded and lost.
We had an incident in Novemberlast year when a family came
(19:51):
across the border from Pakistanto an informal transit centre in
Kabul.
And because they arrived late atnight, the transit centre was
closed.
So they moved across to a patchof ground in Kabul, surrounded
by houses, a place where peopleplay cricket all the time, but
it happens to be a former Sovietmilitary barracks that was
knocked down decades ago.
They built a fire to keep warm,it was November, and unbeknown
(20:12):
to them, there was a rocket fuseunderneath the ground under the
bush they were burning.
It detonated and seven childrenended up in hospital.
So it is it's that sort ofcontamination that we have an
issue with at the in Afghanistanat the moment.
90% of the casualties are fromincidents like that.
So we don't suffer from thetechnology of drones at the
moment and their impact becauseit's not really there is a
(20:33):
little bit involved in thecurrent conflict, but not
massively really.
We're on traditional artilleryshelling.
Our contamination is reallylegacy contamination, but
exactly the same problems applyin that munitions don't always
detonate, they certainly don'talways land where intended, and
they are there for years andyears and years to come
following the conflict.
SPEAKER_05 (20:53):
So although we still have a convention against
anti-personnel landmines, and wehave a convention on explosive
remnants of war, which requiresparties to a conflict to clean
up leftover weapons, there arestill vast quantities of
unexploded ordnance, fromAfghanistan to Ukraine, Syria,
(21:15):
Myanmar, Bosnia, Cambodia, Laos,Lebanon, Iraq, and many other
places.
Paul Heslop would like us tothink differently, not about
particular weapons in isolation,but what they and those who use
them and produce them actuallydo.
SPEAKER_14 (22:01):
I think all of these weapon systems, there are two
parts to it.
Is the weapon system beingdeployed in a combat situation
against a legitimate target?
And if that is the case, thenwhether you're using artillery,
direct fire, cluster munitions,even remotely deployed explosive
devices, and they're against amilitary target within the rules
(22:22):
of war, that is one thing.
And if their use is properlydocumented, you know, the
weather conditions, the soilconditions, the wind, and the
number of munitions used, thetarget area, all of that is
recorded, then making thecleanup afterwards is relatively
straightforward.
You know, it just becomes atechnical exercise.
Where the problems come about isnone of that data is gathered,
(22:45):
but more importantly, is eitherthe weapon system is being used
indiscriminately againstcivilian targets, particularly
in urban areas, that is aserious problem.
And that is something we'restarting to see now as drones in
Ukraine have a bigger and biggerpayload and a longer and longer
range, you know, we're nowseeing civilian communities in
the west of Ukraine beingtargeted.
(23:07):
Is that a 30 to 50 kilo warhead,or is that as a carrier device
carrying submunitions that arethen indiscriminately scattered
over an area?
And then those items that arescattered, do they explode on
impact?
Is there a time delay, or isthere a victim-operated
mechanism?
You know, all of those fallunder treaties, and again, and
(23:28):
if they're being used in anindiscriminate way on civilian
targets, it's a war crime.
So, you know, is the weaponbeing used correctly?
How is it that we can haveweapon systems where 10% is
considered a good fail rate?
And you know, in some caseswe're seeing some of the North
Korean artillery have a 40% failrate.
So if you're firing a thousandshells a day, that's 400
(23:49):
unexploded bombs.
After 1,500 days, that's 6million unexploded bombs because
of the failure just lying aroundbecause they were not
manufactured to the sametolerances that we expect from a
fridge or a Toyota.
So, you know, we've got theseincredibly complex, incredibly
expensive weapon systems thatfail to function as designed.
Now, if that is fired at atarget that is a military target
(24:14):
and it functions, it's not aproblem because it's gone bang.
If it hasn't gone bang, themilitary target goes off, the
conflict comes to an end, kidscome to that area, start playing
with it, it's suddenly become anindiscriminate weapon.
So, you know, why are we noteither expecting the weapons
manufacturers to build theweapons to a higher quality with
better tolerances, or they haveto pay a fee for clearing them
(24:36):
up?
If an oil tanker spillsoil-through incompetence, the
oil company pays for thecleanup.
Why do we not see the weaponsmanufacturers paying for the
cleanup of their weapon systemsthat were legitimately used
against a military target butthen failed and then became an
indiscriminate tool?
SPEAKER_05 (24:52):
And Sean Moorehouse, too, believes our laws are
playing catch-up.
SPEAKER_15 (24:56):
The Ottawa Convention just applies to
anti-personnel mines, so it'squite specific.
However, drones will dropanti-personnel mines.
They drop 3D printed mines orthey drop old Soviet stocks of
what we call the butterfly mine,and they can now deliver them
anywhere.
So you can have a cargo drone goand lay a minefield overnight in
(25:18):
a place where you would neverexpect to find a minefield.
So there is a there's atechnical problem in finding
those and clearing them.
We have conventions, there's theconvention on certain
conventional weapons, whichwould cover items laid by drones
that we would classify as sortof improvised explosive devices,
(25:40):
or that they function like ananti-personnel mine would.
So the conventions are therethat covers the drone stuff
mostly, but when it comes to AItargeting, we completely lack
actually the laws to deal withthat.
If you have a human in the killchain, that would be too slow.
(26:01):
If you're up against an opponentwho does not have the same
ethical considerations and doesnot have a human in the kill
chain, so it is a really, reallybig problem.
SPEAKER_05 (26:11):
Our government's listening to the concerns of
people like yourself?
SPEAKER_15 (26:18):
To be honest, we have only just started raising
these concerns, quite frankly.
SPEAKER_05 (26:24):
And do you think we're in the right frame of mind
globally to deal with it rightnow?
SPEAKER_15 (26:31):
Yes, I do.
I think it has taken a number ofyears for the West to wake up to
the fact that drones haverevolutionized warfare, but also
that they need to deal with themin some way.
So I do think states arestarting to address the issue
now and take it much moreseriously than just a year or
two ago.
SPEAKER_05 (26:51):
All these concerns add up, for Paul Heslop at
least, to a pretty pessimistictake on where we are.
SPEAKER_14 (26:58):
Honestly, uh if you'd said to me five years ago
you'll be working in Ukraine,you know, having never worked in
a outside the Balkans in aEuropean country before, if
you'd told me that um therewould be a war in Iran five
years ago, I would not havebelieved that possible.
I mean, I've spent over 30 yearsin this sector, and for for 25
years we were really winning thebattle.
(27:20):
We were clearing way more minesand way more explosive devices
than were being used.
And in the last five years wehave seen that reversed
catastrophically.
You know, and it is going tocost many millions, if not
billions of dollars to clean upthe mess that has been made in
the last five years.
SPEAKER_05 (27:36):
These are points Estonia's Jonathan Sefio hears
loud and clear.
His country's departure from thelandmine convention may only be
temporary, and so far there areno plans to use landmines.
Meanwhile, his governmentremains committed to supporting
Ukraine, and that includes acleanup of weapons.
SPEAKER_09 (27:58):
The cleanup of ordinance is part of this story.
Reconstructing Ukraine isanother part of this story,
providing for security anotherpart of the story, and most
importantly, bearing in mindthat in big political strategic
developments like the one thatwe're discussing here, hope is
amongst the most valuable ofresources.
(28:19):
Hope today during war keeps theUkrainians afloat.
Hope once war is over, hope thatthey can one day live a normal
European life is going to be atleast as important.
If we as Europe want to play astrategic role in shaping our
own future, then we need to bethe ones who become comfortable
(28:41):
again with concepts likeproviding hope, defining the
future, taking a claim in thesort of future our own continent
has.
SPEAKER_05 (28:52):
And here at Inside Geneva, we like to provide some
hope too.
So we'll leave you with the newsthat during that mine
conference, we heard that whilesome countries are leaving,
Lebanon will be joining theOttawa Treaty.
For Rana, that's a huge andpositive step by her home
country.
SPEAKER_02 (29:11):
We heard that Lebanon will be joining the
convention.
This is a massive achievementand this is a massive push to
the to the convention itself.
In a way, we should perhapsmaybe twist the narrative a bit.
Because when we speak a lot thatthe convention is is under
(29:32):
pressure, I think hasn't italways been under pressure?
I think also the way we areframing things, you know, we
should we should try to work ona more positive narrative,
counter-argue in a way why weneed IHL, why we need these
norms, why we need protection ofcivilians.
(29:54):
And it's actually more costly,you know.
Imagine how much money and time,and in addition to, of course,
the civilian harm inflicted, howmuch these conflicts are
costing.
We should invest in education,we should invest in health, we
should invest in other sectors.
And exactly we should invest inlobbying, in advocating for more
(30:17):
states to join the convention.
It is under pressure, but Ithink, yeah, it's a success
story that Lamanon is joining,and these are the narratives
that we should build our storiesalso around and make sure these
are celebrated.
SPEAKER_05 (30:38):
And that brings us to the end of this edition of
Inside Geneva.
My thanks to everyone who tookpart, and to you for listening.
A reminder you've been listeningto Inside Geneva, a Swiss info
production.
You can subscribe to us andreview us wherever you get your
(30:59):
podcasts.
Check out our previous episodeshow the International Red Cross
unites prisoners of war withtheir families, or why survivors
of human rights violations turnto the UN in Geneva for justice.
I'm Imogen folks.
Thanks again for listening.
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