May 8, 2026 • 23 mins
In this episode, I'm joined by Tim Key, the executive producer behind the hit TV shows Death in Paradise, Beyond Paradise and Return to Paradise. We dive into the world of British crime dramas and cozy mysteries. Exploring what makes these shows so endearing to audiences. Tim shares insights into the casting process, the importance of balancing humour and heart. Plus how the shows' creators aim to deliver a "warm hug" to viewers. We also discuss the challenges of keeping long-running franchises fresh and the pressure to stay true to the shows' core values.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
It's in the news today, but it was actually on
TV Reload the podcast Speak their line Yday, guys, Welcome
back to TV Reload, the podcast where we dive into
the shows that everyone is talking about now. Today's guest
is someone who may not appear on screen, but trust me,
if you love British crime dramas, cozy mysteries or those
shows that somehow feel like a warm hug from your mum,
(00:21):
then you probably already know my guest today's work. Here's
Tim Key and the executive producer and creative force behind
the ever growing Paradise universe from Death in Paradise, Beyond
Paradise and now Return to Paradise, which have all become
a huge hit here in Australia, and honestly, I didn't
expect this conversation to be so emotional and thoughtful and
weirdly comforting. We talk about the no dickhead policy behind
(00:44):
the casting of these shows, why audiences desperately need television
that gives them hope, and how they balance murder mysteries
with humor, heart and characters that genuinely feel like family.
There's also a fascinating discussion about why these shows work
when so Mani spinoffs failed the pressure of keeping long
running franchises fresh without alienating audiences. And yes, we even
(01:07):
talk about Australia's wentworth Australian Television and whether the bill
could ever return in today's world. This is one of
those chats that I really enjoy because it's a little
bit outside of the reality TV space and you guys
would know I love a good script to drama. So
guys settle in because this is my conversation with Tim Key,
which BritBox set up with me. And guys, if you're
(01:27):
not on board with BritBox and your love like a
crime series, you need to get on board. Hi. How
are you. I'm doing well. I'm very excited to be
talking to you. Welcome to Australia.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Oh well, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Have you spent much time here in Australia?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Do you know what I not really know. I've had
two trips to Australia in my life now, and both
of them were really brief. One was to visit a
friend who lived out there and worked out there in
the early two thousands, and I think I was there
for a fortnight. Flew into Melbourne and flew out of
Sydney and loved it, and then I went a couple
of years ago for the first season of Return Paradise.
I went over during the shoot and I was there
(02:02):
for ten days. So I really want to head over
and spend longer because I've loved it both times and
then had to leave immediately.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So, well, we want more of you, We're going to
have to send you over and ticket to come over.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I'm happy with that.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Christmas here last year, so I was talking to Christmas.
I don't know, it feels like it was last year.
I think I was talking to christ.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well, I think he did press in either January or
December or something. Yeah, he was, he was out here.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, Yeah, we had a good love Ah, excellent.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
He's a good guy.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Do you know what's really weird when you go and
meet something like somebody like him and you have this
relationship with them on Love actually, and you've been following
his character for so many different seasons of this show,
is that you kind of expect someone like him to
be I don't know, a little bit pompous or a
little bit full of himself. He was so delightful, full
(02:50):
of life, full of character, so engaging, so authentically himself,
you know.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, I mean he is who he is and I
love working with Chris. I think he's one of those
actors as well. And I guess it's sort of a
good thing and a bad thing. But because he's sort
of grown up in the public eye, Like in the
UK he was in a sitcom which was the first
time anybody ever saw him when he was in his
late teens, I guess or early twenties. I'm not sure
how old he was, and so it's kind of like
(03:16):
they've seen him. So he's kind of made mistakes in
his life like everyone does, and it was a bit
public at times, and he's kind of gone through successes
and he's had slightly quieter times and now it's like
he's a national treasure, as he should be. I think
the audience have just sort of seen him for the
talent that he is and the nice guy that he is.
And the reason he is like that with you, I
think is because he just really cares about what he does.
(03:37):
He's really proud of it. And I think that when
you work on a show, especially on the Paradise shows,
but anything like that, that a lot of people enjoy
and it becomes like a kind of part of their routine,
you know, a bit of part of their life. And
like you said, you've watched him like even just as
that character. He's played that character on and off for
a long time. You know, he's like part of the family.
(03:57):
So I'm glad you liked him when you met him,
because that's my experience of him as well, that he's
just you know, he's just a really genuine guy and
very passionate and just really wants to enjoy life and
do good work.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So it feels like you have like a not dickhead
policy though, to be able to be the lead character
in these series, because the minutia with this product is
so amazing. You don't have to watch every episode of
this universe. You can, you know, drop in and it's
kind of like the warm hug from mum that you
need when you tune. I wonder about these lead characters,
(04:30):
do they have something in common? Do you look for
something about the actor themselves that needs to translate into
the character.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I think so. I think when you're casting in general,
you're trying to find someone who just is I mean,
I know there's acting involved, obviously, I know they're not
ross person, but you just need the spirit of that character.
You need to see it and and sense it in
the room. And I think that on all shows there's
a sort of particular pressure. If you're what they call
number one on the call sheet, you know, you are
(04:59):
a a sort of you're a leader, I guess you are.
You're the role model, You're the person who sets the tone.
If the number one on the call sheet is badly behaved,
then that just immediately ripples through everybody because they're like, well,
why should we bother if that person isn't And obviously,
over the years on all sorts of different shows, nothing
to do with me, but there's been amazing leads, and
there's been people who are more problematic in different shows
(05:21):
and places, and you know, it's some word gets around
very quickly. So I think that when you're casting any
show and you're looking for somebody to play the main
character in it, you are looking for the actor, of course,
and the personality, but you are also looking for that
person's own character and thinking, well, this person physically cope
with the demands of the job, mentally cope with it.
You know, they're on camera a lot, they carry the
(05:42):
weight of most of it, especially in a show like
Death in Paradise or Return to Paradise for Beyond Paradise,
any a detective show where you're the lead detective and
you're the one with the majority of the dialogue at
the end when you get to the denune on, you know,
there's just a lot of stuff to carry with you.
And then if you drop on top of that being
away from home for a long long time, like they
are in Death in Paradise, you're flying them across to
(06:03):
the other side of the world, away from their friends
and their families and normal life. And you know, so
you do need a very particular personality to do it,
and we've been really, really lucky that all of ours have.
You know, we work very hard to put the right
people in the right places. But you're right, I mean,
to be honest with you, the no dickhead policy is
kind of it's so simple, isn't it, But like you know,
(06:24):
it's the older I get and the company I work for,
Red Planet. You know, their attitude has always been to
try and employ very good people but also very nice
people because it is going to be stressful at times,
and it is going to be hard work. And it's
going to interrupt your normal life at times, but it
should also be fun and like you're spending so much
of your life working that you want to work with
(06:45):
people you enjoy working with. And I'm not saying it's
always been like that, but I would say the vast
majority of my time with that particular company and on
the shows that I work on, I've just been really
lucky and worked with really really nice people who really
care about what they're doing. And that's not a bad way,
you know, I'm very lucky. I'm very fortunate to be
in that situation.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
It would have been funny if you were like, actually
one of the other detective inspectors. Total nightmare. There's no
relationship at all between a really.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Good in real life an idiot. You wouldn't believe it
them on screen. But no, no, they've all been very Yeah,
I can't say that, as much as it would be
journalistically wonderful for me to do it, I've been that
isn't the case. They just all they've all been dedicated
and very liked on set, and you know, it makes
life a lot easier when that's the case.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I grew up with parents, grandparents that only watched, which
I was thinking about it as I was looking at
your resume as well with the bill. But I was like,
I grew up with my entire family watching the ABC
here in Australia, which has access to British crime, and
I didn't realize how much British crime I have in
my DNA from these people raising me anything from inspector
(07:58):
more anything, I get the Chrissy. My mum rewatches every
episode of Midsummer Murders, and thankfully she's in her seventies,
so she never remembers who the killer is because she's
probably rewatched the episodes one hundred times. But what's your
relationship growing up? Because you found yourself this niche, you know,
you're living in this space creating these sorts of stories.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, I don't know really. I mean I randomly like
a few of my grandparents were police officers, although I
didn't really know them very well. So there's definitely like
a kind of police family history. I don't know if
that's got anything to do with it or not.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
But that's a turn of the key. I reckon that's
a turn.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Of the k It could be, but I always enjoyed
the mystery side of things. I always enjoyed puzzles and
I always enjoyed that kind of stuff. But then your
career takes you where it takes you. And at first
I thought I would work in radio because that was
where my sort of passion was originally, and then I
ended up on one of the soaps up in Liverpool.
I worked on a show called brook Side and that
took me to Ermondale and so then it felt like
I was going to go down as sort of soap
(08:53):
opera kind of route. And if I'm really honest, like
I've got all the respect in the world for soaps.
There ly hard to make, you know, and obviously loved
the world over, but I wasn't a massive soap watcher.
I didn't I've watched Neighbors actually randomly when I was
a kid, like Neighbors was Appointment of View, and I
watched EastEnders for a chunk of time, but I never
(09:14):
watched Coronation Street and I hadn't really watched Emmerdale before
I worked on it. And I think to work on
those shows really well, you really do have to have
a passion for them, and kind of it really helps
if you know them really well and to turn up
for episode three, nine hundred and seventy six of Emmerdale
with not really knowing you know, I don't mean that
you have to know every single episode, but sort of
(09:35):
feeling the history of it. So when the offer for
the Bill came along, I took that and it was
like then I clicked. I sort of just something happened
where I was like, ah, this is good, this is me.
I really like this because shows like The Bill, I
don't know if you have an equivalent in Australia, and
obviously The Bill has been canceled now for quite a
long time. There are dying breed those shows because it
was two hour long episodes a week, and it told
(09:57):
a new story pretty much in every episode, although with
some serial that would sometimes where we do two parties
or the be ongoing serial storylines, but you would also
still have these self contained stories in every episode, and
that's what we do on Death in Paradise as well
and All the Paradise. So you're trying to come up
with an episode with a story that feels trueful and
(10:18):
surprising and moving and shocking, and you know, on the
Bill you were able to do stuff. I'm not a
fan of sort of issue, like when it feels a
bit self important and it's like, we're now going to
do this issue, everyone pay attention. I don't like that,
but I do like it went through the kind of
I don't know, the sort of you can sneak undercover,
if you like, through a different perspectives, something that the
(10:40):
audience might not have considered or seen or thought about.
And I do sometimes wonder what the Bill would look
like if it was if it was still on now,
with the way that the world has changed since twenty
ten when it was when it was canceled.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I watched before because we were going to talk and
I was looking at your IMDb, of course, and I
then was like the Bill. I was like, I like
to hear the theme songs to shows, or I'd like
to dip into things like honestly, if I hear the
theme songs to some things from the eighties, you feel
like you are transported to that time. So I watched
a little bit of The Bill, and I pondered the
(11:13):
same thing, and I thought, well, they reboot everything, Like,
I feel like the Bill is something that could definitely
exist today, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, I think without wanting to get all political on it.
I think the kind.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Of we'll do it, let's get political.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
At the time that the Bill was at its height,
the Metropolitan Police in the UK were held in really
high esteem by a lot of people. They were the
heroes of the show, and you were on their side.
Life has become a lot more complicated since then, and
I think that to kind of to look at a
show in a sort of big, crowd pleasing way like
the Bill was trying to do and go Okay, here
(11:49):
are I'm not saying that police officers on heroes, of
course not, but I'm just saying that the world is
more complex. There's been some very public cases that have
really shaken the public's faith in those institutions, and I
just think for a cop show to then, you know,
it'd be hard to not acknowledge that. So I'm not
saying you can't be done. But to me, it feels
like there's a sort of more grown up show to
(12:10):
be made in that space. Whereas I think the Bill,
you know, because it's also not a sort of show
you it was very specific to UK policing. You know,
our cops aren't armed apart from sort of specialized armed divisions.
The way that it worked was uniquely British and the
bill reflected that. And I think that, you know, policing
now is very different in the UK. You know, one
it's all sort of massive, faceless super hub buildings, and
(12:32):
I mean, I'm not a police expert, but I mean
it was an amazing job because we spent a lot
of time with the police and I had a huge
respect for them, and like we saw some amazing, fascinating
things and you know, very privileged to kind of have
gone behind the scenes a little bit and wrestled with
not rest we didn't have to wrestle with the dilemmas,
but seen some of the dilectors that they were wrestling with.
But again, you know that was that was twenty ten,
(12:53):
and in twenty twenty six it's it's even more complex.
So yeah, I know that there was talk of rebooting it.
It's some at some point and maybe it would happen,
but I just I don't quite know what that show
would be today.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
You're also living in a delicious land because like what
you're doing with these shows, I think, you know, it's
you still need to have the background of all of
that to have the integrity I think of unpacking because
this is still crime. But there's something very light and
very warm about this show, even though somebody dies every episode,
you know what I mean. But there's something I think
(13:26):
you said something before, which is probably why I liked Crime,
and that is I like to solve the puzzle. And
when I was watching an episode, the first episode of
season four of Death, In returned about I'm going to
get them all wrong.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
And I get in good views beyond you, but you Yeah,
So that's what.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
I meant to say. It's season four and there was
a clue that Chris had and I leant forward into
the screen to look to see what was in the
piece of paper, and I was like, that's what's so
good about these shows is the inclusion of the audience,
because I think people want to feel like they're a
part of it. And I wonder when you're pulling these
shows together, whether that's a conscious thing to do to
(14:05):
make sure that there's things in there to pull the
audience in to make them feel like that they are
being a detective as well.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Absolutely, I mean, we make the show. It sounds the
stupid thing to say, but we make the show for
the audience. Really, the fee al that I always give
is that all of these shows be at Death in
Paradise in particular. It is a parlor game that we
want the audience to play along with, and all the
clues needs to be there for the audience to solve it.
We don't want to, you know. The note that I
give more often than any on a script is like,
(14:32):
we can't just have all these rabbits out of hats
at the end. It needs to be there and we know,
like I know anecdotally a lot of people who watch
it with their families, and it's there. In some ways,
it's like a kind of because in the UK it's
on after nine o'clock. I feel like it's one of
the sort of first post watershed shows that are the
sort of young people watch, and that they watch it
with their families and it's kind of cross generational and
(14:53):
because everybody feels safe with it because they know it's
not going to suddenly pull the rug out from under
their feet and do the most good, abusive, shocking sequence
of time. You know, people know what to expect in
a really good way, and we always make sure we
deliver it, like even on our weaker episodes. Not that
there are any but even when we get it a
bit wrong, you know, we're always trying to make sure
that every episode has the hits that the audience expect
(15:16):
to get, the joy and the escapeism, but also the
mystery and the play along nature of it. And then
on top of that, when we can surprise the audience
and just do something that they're not expecting, then it's
a real it's a gift, it's a joy. You know,
you can tell whether it's in a crime story and
you can just have something very moving that people didn't expect,
perhaps look at a subject matter in a way that
(15:36):
you wouldn't expect a show like Death in Paradise to do,
you know, and make it, you know, beyond Paradise. The
Chris Marshall one in Devon. We made a very conscious
decision at the start that we would occasionally totally pull
the rug out from under the audience's feet and have
them think, oh, yeah, I know what this show is
and then suddenly not. The very first ever episode of
that show is a case in point where it ends
(15:57):
basically with Martha having a miscarriage, and I think that
that's the moment where you go, oh, right, okay, that's
not what I thought this show might be. And then
that kick starts an entire story that I'm really proud
of about. It's a fertility story, it's an IVF story,
and ultimately it's a story about those things not working
for them and then working through it and becoming a
(16:19):
family of just the two of them. And I just
think that that again, just to me, felt like a
story that you just don't see that often on screen.
Like normally when people sort of look at fertility and
stuff in drama, a lot of the time, it tends
to be successful ultimately, and I think, you know, to
kind of look at a story where it wasn't successful
and then what, you know, what next is I think
(16:40):
really really special. So so yeah, I have rambled on,
but like, yes, we think really hard about that. And
the other big challenge we have with all of these shows,
Death in Paradise obviously the most because it's the oldest,
is that you're constantly trying to always deliver what the
audience expects but not let it go stale at the
same time. So it's like, how you keep it the
same and change it at the same time, How do
(17:02):
you keep it feeling energized and you know, and we
all care hugely about it, and we all love making it,
and you know, not one of us ever wants to
phone it in and go, let's just dig out the
old scripts and change some names or anything like that.
But if you change it too much, the audience will
reject it. If you keep it the same, the audience
will reject it. So it's a it's a very fine
line that you have to walk of trying to trying
(17:22):
to kind of evolve the show but not completely change it.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Have you ever thought about what would kill the show?
Is there something like a posted note that's on your
computer that's like, do not do this, this will ruin
it for all of us.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Well, I think that there are some big ones that
we talk about, like not going to gritty and depressing,
and you know, like I think if we took away
the fundamental DNA of the show, of any of those shows,
you know, they have to have heart and they have
to have hope, and they have to you know, like
you said, like kind of feel that a bit like
a hug that you get when you watch them. And
I think if we if we started, you know, we
take them very seriously, but I always say that the
(17:57):
shows don't take themselves too seriously, if that makes sense.
You just got to walk the fine line and the
same way that the comedy in it. It should be
fun and warm, but it shouldn't be silly, and we
do get it wrong occasionally and it kind of veers
into into silly, but like again, it's just such a
fine line you have to walk. So I think the
thing that would kill the show from our side would
be if we forgot those core values, if that makes sense,
(18:18):
if we forgot the principles of it and veered I've
got to go, let's do an experimental episode where where
the murderer gets away with it, and blah blah blah.
You just go, well, that's not what people want from
the show.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
What's kind of stunt? Then it's sort of stunt casting.
It's like, you're not stunt casting, but you know what
I mean, Like that's creating a stunt for the sake
of it, and viewers these days too smart for that completely.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And I often think as well in TV that there
is a danger that because one thing works over here,
everyone wants to do that, and the audience is just
much cleverer than that. They go, well, you're just trying
to rip off such and such like you can't. You know,
that was that you can't have a fleabag come along
and everyone love it quite rightly, and then everyone got
a look where let's do fleabag then you go.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
That was specific.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
That was Phoebe waller Bridge at that time, in that
place doing that show. So it's not you know, you
can't have one hundred pale imitations because the audience will
quite rightly reject them. And I think that's why other
shows have fallen, you know, when they've seen the Death
in Paradise model. You know, a lot of similar shows
have kind of I mean, we're not unique, we didn't
start that genre, but I think we were one of
the big examples of how to how to do it
(19:19):
and how to make it successful. And other shows have
come along, some have succeeded, but a lot have fallen
by the wayside because they it's as if they think, oh,
you can just tick that box, tick that box, tick
that box, and we've got a Death in Paradise and
that was part of it as well. You know, how
do you make them feel of that world without just
being a complete copy of the original show. So It's Yeah,
(19:39):
it's a fine line we walk.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
It's crazy though, that you can have spin offs that
are just as compelling. You know, people probably always think,
I'd really like to spin off this idea and see
how it goes, but it doesn't always work out like that.
Where I found with these three little families that you've
created with these shows, that all three of them now
feel just as tired as each other, doesn't I feel like, oh,
I'm watching the spinoff version. This is the summer series.
(20:03):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, I mean that's what we worked really hard to
do to make sure they felt like they deserved to
exist in their own right. And then we kind of
have a question of how much we sort of cross pollinate,
you know, how much we have the shows reference each
other or characters pop up from one to another. And
we decided early on that we would have little easter eggs.
There's tiny little things that viewers never really gives. There's
(20:25):
a piece of music in part of the score of
Beyond Paradise, for example, that references the theme tune to
Death in Paradise. And there's also little things we hide
in shot, like at the at the end of the
first episode that you've just watched of the new series
of Beyond Paradise, Martha finds a house and shows it
to Humphrey, and as they walk through it, there's a
motorbike with a sidecar out at the front of the house,
(20:47):
which is a deliberate nod to the motorbike and sidecar
in Death in Paradise. And that's more for our own
enjoyment when we get the opportunities to just drop these
little things in. But then you can take it as
far obviously as like Selling from Death in Paradise popped
up in Beyond Poweraradise and Jack Mooney from Death in
Paradise popped up in Return to Paradise. And I love
that we can do that if we wanted to, But
(21:07):
the shows all have to exist on their own merits
in their own space.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Basically, Yeah, absolutely, I mean I just want to say
congratulations to that because it all seems to work very well.
I also just quickly before I move on to something else,
is I love with this show that if I put
it on, my partner says to me when the episode finishes,
should we watch one more?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Got him?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Do you know what I mean? Like? And even side
that's amazing self contained. But what I think he wants
and when I think I want as well, when I go, okay,
let's watch another one, is I just like the feeling
that they show that is exactly it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
And I think that, you know, people put this kind
of TV down and they dismiss it as light and frothy,
and you know.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
That's that.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I just think it's such a kind of an underestimation
of what these shows do because there aren't many shows
that there's a lot of very self important TV, I think,
and it's of you know, pay attention to you and
to learn something. And there's also a lot of shows
where it's like, did you not watch the last three
episodes because you won't have a clue what's going on
in this one. And we don't want to punish the
audience in that way. We want to make sure that
(22:11):
if they do watch the next one, they will perhaps
have some something that someone who didn't see the previous
episode wouldn't have. There are ongoing serial stories that build,
but every single episode, apart from the two parties that
we do, every single episode is deliberately designed to just
be a self contained hit and that way, you know,
like I say, you know what you're going to get
(22:32):
and we make sure we deliver it. That's the mission statement.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So I ask everyone when I finish the podcast, there
seems to be a quick question and that is a
behind the scenes question. So my behind the scenes question
for you'd him is something quite specific. I usually say,
what's something from behind the scenes. But I love the
Wentworth actors, the Australian actors that got used in the
Australian spinoff version. So are you a massive Wentworth fan?
(22:56):
Is that why this happens?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Like I can't take any credit for the US Stralian
versions cast in that's the entirely the Australians team. But
I did love Wentworth, so it's it was a delight.
But they did it and they sent it. They said
what about these people and we were.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Like, yeah, I love them, so be smith to take her.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I wish I could. I wish I d comick. I
can thank you some credit for that, but that wasn't me.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
But yeah, Tim, you're a delight to talk to and
a very good at what you do. And I love
it when I dip back into this series because it
always makes me feel really good and I can't wait
for all the other return beyond dead, alive paradise and
I get to go to in the future. I'm in
your audience.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Thank you mate, it's really nice to meet you and
all the best. And if I do make it over there,
I will sell her.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I'll take you to a pup you can have a beer.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Definitely, I'm very I'm very willing to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
You'll be willing to do that. Great, Okay, enjoy chatting
to the media, and thank you so much for being
your time.
It's in the news today, but it was actually on
TV Reload the podcast Speak their line Yday, guys, Welcome
back to TV Reload, the podcast where we dive into
the shows that everyone is talking about now. Today's guest
is someone who may not appear on screen, but trust me,
if you love British crime dramas, cozy mysteries or those
shows that somehow feel like a warm hug from your mum,
(00:21):
then you probably already know my guest today's work. Here's
Tim Key and the executive producer and creative force behind
the ever growing Paradise universe from Death in Paradise, Beyond
Paradise and now Return to Paradise, which have all become
a huge hit here in Australia, and honestly, I didn't
expect this conversation to be so emotional and thoughtful and
weirdly comforting. We talk about the no dickhead policy behind
(00:44):
the casting of these shows, why audiences desperately need television
that gives them hope, and how they balance murder mysteries
with humor, heart and characters that genuinely feel like family.
There's also a fascinating discussion about why these shows work
when so Mani spinoffs failed the pressure of keeping long
running franchises fresh without alienating audiences. And yes, we even
(01:07):
talk about Australia's wentworth Australian Television and whether the bill
could ever return in today's world. This is one of
those chats that I really enjoy because it's a little
bit outside of the reality TV space and you guys
would know I love a good script to drama. So
guys settle in because this is my conversation with Tim Key,
which BritBox set up with me. And guys, if you're
(01:27):
not on board with BritBox and your love like a
crime series, you need to get on board. Hi. How
are you. I'm doing well. I'm very excited to be
talking to you. Welcome to Australia.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Oh well, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
Have you spent much time here in Australia?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Do you know what I not really know. I've had
two trips to Australia in my life now, and both
of them were really brief. One was to visit a
friend who lived out there and worked out there in
the early two thousands, and I think I was there
for a fortnight. Flew into Melbourne and flew out of
Sydney and loved it, and then I went a couple
of years ago for the first season of Return Paradise.
I went over during the shoot and I was there
(02:02):
for ten days. So I really want to head over
and spend longer because I've loved it both times and
then had to leave immediately.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
So, well, we want more of you, We're going to
have to send you over and ticket to come over.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
I'm happy with that.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Christmas here last year, so I was talking to Christmas.
I don't know, it feels like it was last year.
I think I was talking to christ.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
Well, I think he did press in either January or
December or something. Yeah, he was, he was out here.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, Yeah, we had a good love Ah, excellent.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
He's a good guy.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Do you know what's really weird when you go and
meet something like somebody like him and you have this
relationship with them on Love actually, and you've been following
his character for so many different seasons of this show,
is that you kind of expect someone like him to
be I don't know, a little bit pompous or a
little bit full of himself. He was so delightful, full
(02:50):
of life, full of character, so engaging, so authentically himself,
you know.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Yeah, I mean he is who he is and I
love working with Chris. I think he's one of those
actors as well. And I guess it's sort of a
good thing and a bad thing. But because he's sort
of grown up in the public eye, Like in the
UK he was in a sitcom which was the first
time anybody ever saw him when he was in his
late teens, I guess or early twenties. I'm not sure
how old he was, and so it's kind of like
(03:16):
they've seen him. So he's kind of made mistakes in
his life like everyone does, and it was a bit
public at times, and he's kind of gone through successes
and he's had slightly quieter times and now it's like
he's a national treasure, as he should be. I think
the audience have just sort of seen him for the
talent that he is and the nice guy that he is.
And the reason he is like that with you, I
think is because he just really cares about what he does.
(03:37):
He's really proud of it. And I think that when
you work on a show, especially on the Paradise shows,
but anything like that, that a lot of people enjoy
and it becomes like a kind of part of their routine,
you know, a bit of part of their life. And
like you said, you've watched him like even just as
that character. He's played that character on and off for
a long time. You know, he's like part of the family.
(03:57):
So I'm glad you liked him when you met him,
because that's my experience of him as well, that he's
just you know, he's just a really genuine guy and
very passionate and just really wants to enjoy life and
do good work.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
So it feels like you have like a not dickhead
policy though, to be able to be the lead character
in these series, because the minutia with this product is
so amazing. You don't have to watch every episode of
this universe. You can, you know, drop in and it's
kind of like the warm hug from mum that you
need when you tune. I wonder about these lead characters,
(04:30):
do they have something in common? Do you look for
something about the actor themselves that needs to translate into
the character.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
I think so. I think when you're casting in general,
you're trying to find someone who just is I mean,
I know there's acting involved, obviously, I know they're not
ross person, but you just need the spirit of that character.
You need to see it and and sense it in
the room. And I think that on all shows there's
a sort of particular pressure. If you're what they call
number one on the call sheet, you know, you are
(04:59):
a a sort of you're a leader, I guess you are.
You're the role model, You're the person who sets the tone.
If the number one on the call sheet is badly behaved,
then that just immediately ripples through everybody because they're like, well,
why should we bother if that person isn't And obviously,
over the years on all sorts of different shows, nothing
to do with me, but there's been amazing leads, and
there's been people who are more problematic in different shows
(05:21):
and places, and you know, it's some word gets around
very quickly. So I think that when you're casting any
show and you're looking for somebody to play the main
character in it, you are looking for the actor, of course,
and the personality, but you are also looking for that
person's own character and thinking, well, this person physically cope
with the demands of the job, mentally cope with it.
You know, they're on camera a lot, they carry the
(05:42):
weight of most of it, especially in a show like
Death in Paradise or Return to Paradise for Beyond Paradise,
any a detective show where you're the lead detective and
you're the one with the majority of the dialogue at
the end when you get to the denune on, you know,
there's just a lot of stuff to carry with you.
And then if you drop on top of that being
away from home for a long long time, like they
are in Death in Paradise, you're flying them across to
(06:03):
the other side of the world, away from their friends
and their families and normal life. And you know, so
you do need a very particular personality to do it,
and we've been really, really lucky that all of ours have.
You know, we work very hard to put the right
people in the right places. But you're right, I mean,
to be honest with you, the no dickhead policy is
kind of it's so simple, isn't it, But like you know,
(06:24):
it's the older I get and the company I work for,
Red Planet. You know, their attitude has always been to
try and employ very good people but also very nice
people because it is going to be stressful at times,
and it is going to be hard work. And it's
going to interrupt your normal life at times, but it
should also be fun and like you're spending so much
of your life working that you want to work with
(06:45):
people you enjoy working with. And I'm not saying it's
always been like that, but I would say the vast
majority of my time with that particular company and on
the shows that I work on, I've just been really
lucky and worked with really really nice people who really
care about what they're doing. And that's not a bad way,
you know, I'm very lucky. I'm very fortunate to be
in that situation.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
It would have been funny if you were like, actually
one of the other detective inspectors. Total nightmare. There's no
relationship at all between a really.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Good in real life an idiot. You wouldn't believe it
them on screen. But no, no, they've all been very Yeah,
I can't say that, as much as it would be
journalistically wonderful for me to do it, I've been that
isn't the case. They just all they've all been dedicated
and very liked on set, and you know, it makes
life a lot easier when that's the case.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
I grew up with parents, grandparents that only watched, which
I was thinking about it as I was looking at
your resume as well with the bill. But I was like,
I grew up with my entire family watching the ABC
here in Australia, which has access to British crime, and
I didn't realize how much British crime I have in
my DNA from these people raising me anything from inspector
(07:58):
more anything, I get the Chrissy. My mum rewatches every
episode of Midsummer Murders, and thankfully she's in her seventies,
so she never remembers who the killer is because she's
probably rewatched the episodes one hundred times. But what's your
relationship growing up? Because you found yourself this niche, you know,
you're living in this space creating these sorts of stories.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, I don't know really. I mean I randomly like
a few of my grandparents were police officers, although I
didn't really know them very well. So there's definitely like
a kind of police family history. I don't know if
that's got anything to do with it or not.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
But that's a turn of the key. I reckon that's
a turn.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
Of the k It could be, but I always enjoyed
the mystery side of things. I always enjoyed puzzles and
I always enjoyed that kind of stuff. But then your
career takes you where it takes you. And at first
I thought I would work in radio because that was
where my sort of passion was originally, and then I
ended up on one of the soaps up in Liverpool.
I worked on a show called brook Side and that
took me to Ermondale and so then it felt like
I was going to go down as sort of soap
(08:53):
opera kind of route. And if I'm really honest, like
I've got all the respect in the world for soaps.
There ly hard to make, you know, and obviously loved
the world over, but I wasn't a massive soap watcher.
I didn't I've watched Neighbors actually randomly when I was
a kid, like Neighbors was Appointment of View, and I
watched EastEnders for a chunk of time, but I never
(09:14):
watched Coronation Street and I hadn't really watched Emmerdale before
I worked on it. And I think to work on
those shows really well, you really do have to have
a passion for them, and kind of it really helps
if you know them really well and to turn up
for episode three, nine hundred and seventy six of Emmerdale
with not really knowing you know, I don't mean that
you have to know every single episode, but sort of
(09:35):
feeling the history of it. So when the offer for
the Bill came along, I took that and it was
like then I clicked. I sort of just something happened
where I was like, ah, this is good, this is me.
I really like this because shows like The Bill, I
don't know if you have an equivalent in Australia, and
obviously The Bill has been canceled now for quite a
long time. There are dying breed those shows because it
was two hour long episodes a week, and it told
(09:57):
a new story pretty much in every episode, although with
some serial that would sometimes where we do two parties
or the be ongoing serial storylines, but you would also
still have these self contained stories in every episode, and
that's what we do on Death in Paradise as well
and All the Paradise. So you're trying to come up
with an episode with a story that feels trueful and
(10:18):
surprising and moving and shocking, and you know, on the
Bill you were able to do stuff. I'm not a
fan of sort of issue, like when it feels a
bit self important and it's like, we're now going to
do this issue, everyone pay attention. I don't like that,
but I do like it went through the kind of
I don't know, the sort of you can sneak undercover,
if you like, through a different perspectives, something that the
(10:40):
audience might not have considered or seen or thought about.
And I do sometimes wonder what the Bill would look
like if it was if it was still on now,
with the way that the world has changed since twenty
ten when it was when it was canceled.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I watched before because we were going to talk and
I was looking at your IMDb, of course, and I
then was like the Bill. I was like, I like
to hear the theme songs to shows, or I'd like
to dip into things like honestly, if I hear the
theme songs to some things from the eighties, you feel
like you are transported to that time. So I watched
a little bit of The Bill, and I pondered the
(11:13):
same thing, and I thought, well, they reboot everything, Like,
I feel like the Bill is something that could definitely
exist today, you know.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, I think without wanting to get all political on it.
I think the kind.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Of we'll do it, let's get political.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
At the time that the Bill was at its height,
the Metropolitan Police in the UK were held in really
high esteem by a lot of people. They were the
heroes of the show, and you were on their side.
Life has become a lot more complicated since then, and
I think that to kind of to look at a
show in a sort of big, crowd pleasing way like
the Bill was trying to do and go Okay, here
(11:49):
are I'm not saying that police officers on heroes, of
course not, but I'm just saying that the world is
more complex. There's been some very public cases that have
really shaken the public's faith in those institutions, and I
just think for a cop show to then, you know,
it'd be hard to not acknowledge that. So I'm not
saying you can't be done. But to me, it feels
like there's a sort of more grown up show to
(12:10):
be made in that space. Whereas I think the Bill,
you know, because it's also not a sort of show
you it was very specific to UK policing. You know,
our cops aren't armed apart from sort of specialized armed divisions.
The way that it worked was uniquely British and the
bill reflected that. And I think that, you know, policing
now is very different in the UK. You know, one
it's all sort of massive, faceless super hub buildings, and
(12:32):
I mean, I'm not a police expert, but I mean
it was an amazing job because we spent a lot
of time with the police and I had a huge
respect for them, and like we saw some amazing, fascinating
things and you know, very privileged to kind of have
gone behind the scenes a little bit and wrestled with
not rest we didn't have to wrestle with the dilemmas,
but seen some of the dilectors that they were wrestling with.
But again, you know that was that was twenty ten,
(12:53):
and in twenty twenty six it's it's even more complex.
So yeah, I know that there was talk of rebooting it.
It's some at some point and maybe it would happen,
but I just I don't quite know what that show
would be today.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
You're also living in a delicious land because like what
you're doing with these shows, I think, you know, it's
you still need to have the background of all of
that to have the integrity I think of unpacking because
this is still crime. But there's something very light and
very warm about this show, even though somebody dies every episode,
you know what I mean. But there's something I think
(13:26):
you said something before, which is probably why I liked Crime,
and that is I like to solve the puzzle. And
when I was watching an episode, the first episode of
season four of Death, In returned about I'm going to
get them all wrong.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
And I get in good views beyond you, but you Yeah,
So that's what.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
I meant to say. It's season four and there was
a clue that Chris had and I leant forward into
the screen to look to see what was in the
piece of paper, and I was like, that's what's so
good about these shows is the inclusion of the audience,
because I think people want to feel like they're a
part of it. And I wonder when you're pulling these
shows together, whether that's a conscious thing to do to
(14:05):
make sure that there's things in there to pull the
audience in to make them feel like that they are
being a detective as well.
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Absolutely, I mean, we make the show. It sounds the
stupid thing to say, but we make the show for
the audience. Really, the fee al that I always give
is that all of these shows be at Death in
Paradise in particular. It is a parlor game that we
want the audience to play along with, and all the
clues needs to be there for the audience to solve it.
We don't want to, you know. The note that I
give more often than any on a script is like,
(14:32):
we can't just have all these rabbits out of hats
at the end. It needs to be there and we know,
like I know anecdotally a lot of people who watch
it with their families, and it's there. In some ways,
it's like a kind of because in the UK it's
on after nine o'clock. I feel like it's one of
the sort of first post watershed shows that are the
sort of young people watch, and that they watch it
with their families and it's kind of cross generational and
(14:53):
because everybody feels safe with it because they know it's
not going to suddenly pull the rug out from under
their feet and do the most good, abusive, shocking sequence
of time. You know, people know what to expect in
a really good way, and we always make sure we
deliver it, like even on our weaker episodes. Not that
there are any but even when we get it a
bit wrong, you know, we're always trying to make sure
that every episode has the hits that the audience expect
(15:16):
to get, the joy and the escapeism, but also the
mystery and the play along nature of it. And then
on top of that, when we can surprise the audience
and just do something that they're not expecting, then it's
a real it's a gift, it's a joy. You know,
you can tell whether it's in a crime story and
you can just have something very moving that people didn't expect,
perhaps look at a subject matter in a way that
(15:36):
you wouldn't expect a show like Death in Paradise to do,
you know, and make it, you know, beyond Paradise. The
Chris Marshall one in Devon. We made a very conscious
decision at the start that we would occasionally totally pull
the rug out from under the audience's feet and have
them think, oh, yeah, I know what this show is
and then suddenly not. The very first ever episode of
that show is a case in point where it ends
(15:57):
basically with Martha having a miscarriage, and I think that
that's the moment where you go, oh, right, okay, that's
not what I thought this show might be. And then
that kick starts an entire story that I'm really proud
of about. It's a fertility story, it's an IVF story,
and ultimately it's a story about those things not working
for them and then working through it and becoming a
(16:19):
family of just the two of them. And I just
think that that again, just to me, felt like a
story that you just don't see that often on screen.
Like normally when people sort of look at fertility and
stuff in drama, a lot of the time, it tends
to be successful ultimately, and I think, you know, to
kind of look at a story where it wasn't successful
and then what, you know, what next is I think
(16:40):
really really special. So so yeah, I have rambled on,
but like, yes, we think really hard about that. And
the other big challenge we have with all of these shows,
Death in Paradise obviously the most because it's the oldest,
is that you're constantly trying to always deliver what the
audience expects but not let it go stale at the
same time. So it's like, how you keep it the
same and change it at the same time, How do
(17:02):
you keep it feeling energized and you know, and we
all care hugely about it, and we all love making it,
and you know, not one of us ever wants to
phone it in and go, let's just dig out the
old scripts and change some names or anything like that.
But if you change it too much, the audience will
reject it. If you keep it the same, the audience
will reject it. So it's a it's a very fine
line that you have to walk of trying to trying
(17:22):
to kind of evolve the show but not completely change it.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Have you ever thought about what would kill the show?
Is there something like a posted note that's on your
computer that's like, do not do this, this will ruin
it for all of us.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Well, I think that there are some big ones that
we talk about, like not going to gritty and depressing,
and you know, like I think if we took away
the fundamental DNA of the show, of any of those shows,
you know, they have to have heart and they have
to have hope, and they have to you know, like
you said, like kind of feel that a bit like
a hug that you get when you watch them. And
I think if we if we started, you know, we
take them very seriously, but I always say that the
(17:57):
shows don't take themselves too seriously, if that makes sense.
You just got to walk the fine line and the
same way that the comedy in it. It should be
fun and warm, but it shouldn't be silly, and we
do get it wrong occasionally and it kind of veers
into into silly, but like again, it's just such a
fine line you have to walk. So I think the
thing that would kill the show from our side would
be if we forgot those core values, if that makes sense,
(18:18):
if we forgot the principles of it and veered I've
got to go, let's do an experimental episode where where
the murderer gets away with it, and blah blah blah.
You just go, well, that's not what people want from
the show.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
What's kind of stunt? Then it's sort of stunt casting.
It's like, you're not stunt casting, but you know what
I mean, Like that's creating a stunt for the sake
of it, and viewers these days too smart for that completely.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
And I often think as well in TV that there
is a danger that because one thing works over here,
everyone wants to do that, and the audience is just
much cleverer than that. They go, well, you're just trying
to rip off such and such like you can't. You know,
that was that you can't have a fleabag come along
and everyone love it quite rightly, and then everyone got
a look where let's do fleabag then you go.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
That was specific.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
That was Phoebe waller Bridge at that time, in that
place doing that show. So it's not you know, you
can't have one hundred pale imitations because the audience will
quite rightly reject them. And I think that's why other
shows have fallen, you know, when they've seen the Death
in Paradise model. You know, a lot of similar shows
have kind of I mean, we're not unique, we didn't
start that genre, but I think we were one of
the big examples of how to how to do it
(19:19):
and how to make it successful. And other shows have
come along, some have succeeded, but a lot have fallen
by the wayside because they it's as if they think, oh,
you can just tick that box, tick that box, tick
that box, and we've got a Death in Paradise and
that was part of it as well. You know, how
do you make them feel of that world without just
being a complete copy of the original show. So It's Yeah,
(19:39):
it's a fine line we walk.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
It's crazy though, that you can have spin offs that
are just as compelling. You know, people probably always think,
I'd really like to spin off this idea and see
how it goes, but it doesn't always work out like that.
Where I found with these three little families that you've
created with these shows, that all three of them now
feel just as tired as each other, doesn't I feel like, oh,
I'm watching the spinoff version. This is the summer series.
(20:03):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, I mean that's what we worked really hard to
do to make sure they felt like they deserved to
exist in their own right. And then we kind of
have a question of how much we sort of cross pollinate,
you know, how much we have the shows reference each
other or characters pop up from one to another. And
we decided early on that we would have little easter eggs.
There's tiny little things that viewers never really gives. There's
(20:25):
a piece of music in part of the score of
Beyond Paradise, for example, that references the theme tune to
Death in Paradise. And there's also little things we hide
in shot, like at the at the end of the
first episode that you've just watched of the new series
of Beyond Paradise, Martha finds a house and shows it
to Humphrey, and as they walk through it, there's a
motorbike with a sidecar out at the front of the house,
(20:47):
which is a deliberate nod to the motorbike and sidecar
in Death in Paradise. And that's more for our own
enjoyment when we get the opportunities to just drop these
little things in. But then you can take it as
far obviously as like Selling from Death in Paradise popped
up in Beyond Poweraradise and Jack Mooney from Death in
Paradise popped up in Return to Paradise. And I love
that we can do that if we wanted to, But
(21:07):
the shows all have to exist on their own merits
in their own space.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Basically, Yeah, absolutely, I mean I just want to say
congratulations to that because it all seems to work very well.
I also just quickly before I move on to something else,
is I love with this show that if I put
it on, my partner says to me when the episode finishes,
should we watch one more?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
Got him?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Do you know what I mean? Like? And even side
that's amazing self contained. But what I think he wants
and when I think I want as well, when I go, okay,
let's watch another one, is I just like the feeling
that they show that is exactly it.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
And I think that, you know, people put this kind
of TV down and they dismiss it as light and frothy,
and you know.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
That's that.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
I just think it's such a kind of an underestimation
of what these shows do because there aren't many shows
that there's a lot of very self important TV, I think,
and it's of you know, pay attention to you and
to learn something. And there's also a lot of shows
where it's like, did you not watch the last three
episodes because you won't have a clue what's going on
in this one. And we don't want to punish the
audience in that way. We want to make sure that
(22:11):
if they do watch the next one, they will perhaps
have some something that someone who didn't see the previous
episode wouldn't have. There are ongoing serial stories that build,
but every single episode, apart from the two parties that
we do, every single episode is deliberately designed to just
be a self contained hit and that way, you know,
like I say, you know what you're going to get
(22:32):
and we make sure we deliver it. That's the mission statement.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
So I ask everyone when I finish the podcast, there
seems to be a quick question and that is a
behind the scenes question. So my behind the scenes question
for you'd him is something quite specific. I usually say,
what's something from behind the scenes. But I love the
Wentworth actors, the Australian actors that got used in the
Australian spinoff version. So are you a massive Wentworth fan?
(22:56):
Is that why this happens?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Like I can't take any credit for the US Stralian
versions cast in that's the entirely the Australians team. But
I did love Wentworth, so it's it was a delight.
But they did it and they sent it. They said
what about these people and we were.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Like, yeah, I love them, so be smith to take her.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I wish I could. I wish I d comick. I
can thank you some credit for that, but that wasn't me.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
But yeah, Tim, you're a delight to talk to and
a very good at what you do. And I love
it when I dip back into this series because it
always makes me feel really good and I can't wait
for all the other return beyond dead, alive paradise and
I get to go to in the future. I'm in
your audience.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Thank you mate, it's really nice to meet you and
all the best. And if I do make it over there,
I will sell her.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
I'll take you to a pup you can have a beer.
Speaker 2 (23:43):
Definitely, I'm very I'm very willing to do that.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
You'll be willing to do that. Great, Okay, enjoy chatting
to the media, and thank you so much for being
your time.
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