July 31, 2026 • 14 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Joining me now a nerd from the Common Sense Institute
where all the nerds work. He's Andrew Woodward. And Andrew,
welcome to the show. First of all, this is your
first visit to the program.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Thanks for having me, Mandy. Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
So what is your background and what is your area
of concentration at common Sense?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
So I'm an economist here at the Common Sense Institute,
and we are a nonpartisan, data driven research institution. I'm
covering many state policy issues, so anything from the cost
of housing to crime to education. And you're right on
the spot. This report is on the cost of housing
and we've got a few interesting findings for the state.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
One of the things I say a lot on the
show and when Mayor Mike Johnston, especially when he stands
up and talks about how another government program is going
to make everything affordable for everybody, and I always say,
why don't you look and see what kind of damage
you the government are inflicting on home, Like, let's fix
the part that government has made more expensive. So when
(01:03):
I saw your report, my reaction was, of course, it
adds forty thousand dollars to the cost of building a
new home. Break that down for me Andrew, where did
that number come from?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah, absolutely, so that it may not be surprising that
the number is large, but interesting to see how it
stacks up between other states. So in our in our study,
we compared Denver to twelve comparable states like Salt Lake City, Portland, Oregon,
just to see how.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
The costs stack up.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
So breaking those out, let's start with sales tax for example,
So Denver sales tax ranks quite high among comparable cities. Now,
Colorado's state sales tax is just two point nine percent,
which is actually quite low, but once you factor in
the local rates, Denver's combined nine point fifteen percent results
in quite a high rate compared to our peers. So
(01:59):
looking at that at the cost of materials, the tax
on that is actually sixty percent higher than the national average.
So now if we're building a two thousand square foot house,
we can estimate that sales tax burden to be seven
thousand dollars. Compare that to other cities like Portland or
Bozeman where there is no state or local sales tax,
(02:20):
or even Cheyenne you just mentioned the Wyoming folks. Their
sales tax rate is just five percent, So a big
difference there, and then there's plenty of other fees to
discuss as well.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
It doesn't you don't necessarily think about sales tax when
you're buying a home, but that has to be taken
into consideration. So what are some of the other fees
or taxes that are on the process as well.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Right, So there's a whole stack of fees, and this
applies to building a home in any city, but we
found that Denver's fees, each of them, are notably higher
than most of the twelve peer cities in our analysis.
So these fees include everything from system development charges to
connect to the water and sewer mains, building permit fees,
(03:05):
plan review fees, there's trade permit fees. So think about electricians, plumbers,
HVAC guys. They're all paying a fee of several hundred
dollars just to be able to work on the house.
So when you stack all of these up, these fees
plus our estimated sales tax expense, Denver's already the most
expensive among the twelve pure cities in our analysis. And
(03:27):
then there's a few more things on top of that.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, I want to talk a little bit about the
permit take process because that's all. That's a hidden tax,
and that is one of the reasons I was selling
Andrew off the air.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I've talked to two different.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Developers who no longer build in Denver for two reasons.
Number one, the fees that Andrew was talking about, because
these are people building houses that should sell for four
or five hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
These are maybe not starter home.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
They'd they'd be a higher level home somewhere else, maybe
even starter homes here, but they said they can't get
to permitting that in six months, and there's carrying costs
that get carried by the builders that then get passed
on to the consumers.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
We can't ignore that, right.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
So there's not only other fees for these permits, but
once you count the time it takes of delays on
the city's time, there's costs of financing. So Denver's average
plan review time for major residential projects is two hundred
and nine days. Other cities wait times are significantly lower.
(04:31):
We looked at Salt Lake Cities was just forty five days.
So whether you're a developer or a family building your
own home, this extended wait time means your incurring costs
for months and months before you can actually move in.
So we estimate the gap between Denver and Salt Lake
City's timeline represents about nine thousand dollars an avoidable financing come.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
You also looked at some other fees, especially I want
to talk about the Denver's water system development fee because
you found it was ninety one percent above the national average.
What exactly are they doing with that exorbitant amount of money?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Right yep.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Water is definitely one that stands out in Colorado, and
a lot of that has to do with water scarcity
issues and the cost of buying water rights for some
of these suburbs around Denver especially, But the basic idea
is that when you build a new home, the main
water line down the street needs to be extended, and
who's going to pay for that cost? So that rests
(05:31):
heavily upon new home builders. And we also noted that
not only is Denver's feed very high, but surrounding suburbs
fees are actually two to three times higher than Denver's
water system development fee. And that's where we're seeing a
lot of the growth and new housing developments, just for
the fact that there's more space than some of those suburbs,
so huge expense for Colorado and its building houses.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I live in Douglas County where it feels like they
have just sprinkled housing seeds all over the place because
they're just sprouting up like mushrooms. How do the outer
suburbs like when you look at the overall cost? Did
you guys analyze the outer suburbs versus Denver?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Just?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I know you did other cities, But was there a
Was there a county where things are better and counties
where they are worse?
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I guess what I'm asking.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yep, depends where you want to live.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
So if you look out in Lamar, fees can be
as low as three thousand dollars, and if you want
to live in Arvada water system development fees can be
as high as forty thousand dollars. So it varies quite
a bit. For those interested in going deeper, you can
look on our website. We have a map of probably
twenty to thirty cities in the state to show you
the wide range. But yeah, you're right, it varies quite
(06:43):
a bit depending on what suburb or what town you're
in in the state. Anywhere from three thousands of forty
six thousand dollars to connect to the waterline.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I don't get me wrong, I do believe that new
developments need to have skin in the game when it
comes to the infrastructure that they need to make these
new developments. I'm not opposed to that because that does
feel more like a fee for service. But what I'd
love to see is the justification for this wild disparity
in the fees that these different cities and towns are charging.
I mean, I really think it probably has to do
(07:12):
with who could pass it with no one paying attention, right,
new people are not going to be at the city
council meeting or wherever these decisions are made. Did you
guys have any sort of rhyme or reason where there
is there an explanation given or is it just in Oravada.
Here's your forty thousand dollars bill.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
YEP.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
For this study, we really were just collecting the facts,
so we have the data for all these various cities.
We don't have the line items that the city uses
those funds for, but you can just see from the
variation that there's obviously different approaches city to city of
the size of fees that they're willing to ask for.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And then the use would be another question.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Another good perspective is just to compare this across other
cities in the West.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So water fees in.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Denver are quite similar to those in Cheyenne, but you
look at cities like Phoenix or Bozeman, Salt Lake City, Boise,
our fees are two to three times higher when it
comes to water system development fees.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
What is the impact been on our home building here
in Colorado versus or here in the Denver metro versus
those cities you just mentioned.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Are we building as many houses now?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Right? So our benchmark is mostly on the fees.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
We do note that Denver permits for single family homes
have dropped significantly since twenty twenty one. I think we
have it's well into the double digits, maybe a forty
percent decrease in permits for new single family homes since
twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
How are other cities doing though? Are they continuing to grow?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And it varies quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I'd say, we know there's strong growth in cities like
Oklahoma City, Dallas, Omaha. And one thing all those cities
have in common is quite a bit lower fees.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
If you look at.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
We have a chart in our report that has this
the total stacked cost for each of these fees, and
those three cities I mentioned are definitely towards the cheaper end.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Well, you've got a list on this study as well
the most unaffordable housing markets, and you have Colorado at
number twelve in the affordable ranking. How did that have
this ranking come about?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And that actually might be a relatively optimistic ranking. There's
a number of rankings that have come out recently. There's
one from CNBC that's been quoted in quite a few
articles lately. Colorado's towards the bottom, if not the worst
for home affordability, whether you look at the typical single
family home price compared to media and household income, or
(09:46):
if you look in a bit more detail and look
at more variables, Colorado is ranking lower and lower for
the past five or ten years as far as home
affordability rankings.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
What about the affordability? Let me think of how to
ask this. Actually a texture just texted it. They were
asking about water. Where's the future water coming from for
all this development? Is that part of the reason that
water fees are so high? Or do they have to
have a shured supply? I mean our water stuff out here, Andrew,
I'm not going to lie. I'm from Florida, where water
(10:17):
falls out of the sky every day. I've never dealt
with water issues until I moved here, and every time
I start to think I have a handle on it,
this new thing pops up, Like where are these developers
getting assured supply? Is that taken into account in any
of the data that you look through.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
So for our understanding from our research these water system
development fees, there is some overlap in what those funds
are used for. As far as a deep dive in water,
we haven't done that just yet. Obviously a very important
topic for the state, especially this summer with how low
some of the lakes and reservoirs are, so you can
expect some upcoming research on the water topics. But that's
(10:57):
all I have to say. As far as this.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Study's got, how much affordable the affordable housing fees that
have been created by Denver in the state of Colorado,
how much they directly add to the cost of someone
else's home.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yes, and thank you for bringing that up. So a
lot of these fees, as I mentioned, they exist in
other cities.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
We just happen to be a bit higher.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Now, this affordable housing linkage fee is something quite unique
to Denver. Across the twelve cities we looked at, Portland,
Oregon was the only other city with a comparable fee,
and theirs was actually five times lower than what we
see in Denver. So the Denver fee is eight dollars
and eighteen cents per square foot, and in our study
we based it off of a two thousand square foot
(11:39):
new build home that would total more than sixteen thousand dollars,
which the city collects to create and preserve affordable homes
for low to moderate income families, well.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Making everybody else pay more.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I mean, let's be real, we're basically subsidizing the people
who are going to be lucky enough to get into
the program that the government has decided.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
They're the lucky ones.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
They win the prize, and the rest of us just
get to buy a ticket and never cash it.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I mean, that's me just dumbing things out.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I do want to ask you something about permitting fees.
The graph that you have in the Common Sense Institute's
report that I'm talking with with Andrew Woodward, the author
of the report, you have a graph of the show
is building permit fees, plan review fees, and trade permits.
Why do some states not have trade permits at all?
Because in Denver they add a sizable chunk onto the
(12:29):
cost of all of these fees. Why do Phoenix and
Cheyenne not have those fees at all?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Right, So these are all policy issues. It's up to
policy makers whether or not we have these fees, whether
they grow, or whether they cease to exist. So you
a lie note in quite a few cities you mentioned
a few of them, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Nashville, they're missing
a number of these fees. And you'll notice that it's
(13:00):
also correlated with some of the cities that have continued
to see growth in home building in contrast to what
Denver's experienced.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
And the cost is much much lower.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I mean, we're sitting around six thousand dollars just in
permitting fees, plan review fees, and trade permits, whereas Oklahoma
City is sitting around five hundred bucks.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
It looks like, based on.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
The graph, these are all significant things that government could address.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
But where's the argument, Andrew?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I mean, maybe this is maybe I'm asking the wrong
person this question, but I don't know what a plan
review fee does, but I do know that AI will
do it better and faster than the people probably in
that office. So at what point do we start to
see some of these flow expensive systems start to get better.
I mean, I guess we have to have different people.
(13:47):
I'm answering my own questions. Andrew, you don't even need
to be here for this part of the interview. It's
just it's frustrating when you see it laid out like this,
and you know that government can do better, but they
don't have any incentive to do better because their answer
is always another program for affordable housing for the chosen few,
while increasing the costs on everyone else. It becomes this
(14:08):
sort of, you know, self fulfilling prophecy of housing gets
more expensive because they make it more expensive, but for
a few, they're going to make it cheaper. And it's
a frustrating cycle. And I wish there was more I
could do to change it right now. But I appreciate
the incredibly hard work that you did on this to
sort of open everybody's eyes on what that actually looks
like in practice. Andrew Woodward, I appreciate your time today
(14:29):
and everything you do a common sense great Thank you
many all right, that is Andrew Woodward. You can read
the study in its entirety at my website. You can
link to it at mandyblog dot com.
Joining me now a nerd from the Common Sense Institute
where all the nerds work. He's Andrew Woodward. And Andrew,
welcome to the show. First of all, this is your
first visit to the program.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Thanks for having me, Mandy. Great to be here.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
So what is your background and what is your area
of concentration at common Sense?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
So I'm an economist here at the Common Sense Institute,
and we are a nonpartisan, data driven research institution. I'm
covering many state policy issues, so anything from the cost
of housing to crime to education. And you're right on
the spot. This report is on the cost of housing
and we've got a few interesting findings for the state.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
One of the things I say a lot on the
show and when Mayor Mike Johnston, especially when he stands
up and talks about how another government program is going
to make everything affordable for everybody, and I always say,
why don't you look and see what kind of damage
you the government are inflicting on home, Like, let's fix
the part that government has made more expensive. So when
(01:03):
I saw your report, my reaction was, of course, it
adds forty thousand dollars to the cost of building a
new home. Break that down for me Andrew, where did
that number come from?
Speaker 3 (01:16):
Yeah, absolutely, so that it may not be surprising that
the number is large, but interesting to see how it
stacks up between other states. So in our in our study,
we compared Denver to twelve comparable states like Salt Lake City, Portland, Oregon,
just to see how.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
The costs stack up.
Speaker 3 (01:34):
So breaking those out, let's start with sales tax for example,
So Denver sales tax ranks quite high among comparable cities. Now,
Colorado's state sales tax is just two point nine percent,
which is actually quite low, but once you factor in
the local rates, Denver's combined nine point fifteen percent results
in quite a high rate compared to our peers. So
(01:59):
looking at that at the cost of materials, the tax
on that is actually sixty percent higher than the national average.
So now if we're building a two thousand square foot house,
we can estimate that sales tax burden to be seven
thousand dollars. Compare that to other cities like Portland or
Bozeman where there is no state or local sales tax,
(02:20):
or even Cheyenne you just mentioned the Wyoming folks. Their
sales tax rate is just five percent, So a big
difference there, and then there's plenty of other fees to
discuss as well.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
It doesn't you don't necessarily think about sales tax when
you're buying a home, but that has to be taken
into consideration. So what are some of the other fees
or taxes that are on the process as well.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
Right, So there's a whole stack of fees, and this
applies to building a home in any city, but we
found that Denver's fees, each of them, are notably higher
than most of the twelve peer cities in our analysis.
So these fees include everything from system development charges to
connect to the water and sewer mains, building permit fees,
(03:05):
plan review fees, there's trade permit fees. So think about electricians, plumbers,
HVAC guys. They're all paying a fee of several hundred
dollars just to be able to work on the house.
So when you stack all of these up, these fees
plus our estimated sales tax expense, Denver's already the most
expensive among the twelve pure cities in our analysis. And
(03:27):
then there's a few more things on top of that.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Well, I want to talk a little bit about the
permit take process because that's all. That's a hidden tax,
and that is one of the reasons I was selling
Andrew off the air.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
I've talked to two different.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Developers who no longer build in Denver for two reasons.
Number one, the fees that Andrew was talking about, because
these are people building houses that should sell for four
or five hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
These are maybe not starter home.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
They'd they'd be a higher level home somewhere else, maybe
even starter homes here, but they said they can't get
to permitting that in six months, and there's carrying costs
that get carried by the builders that then get passed
on to the consumers.
Speaker 4 (04:04):
We can't ignore that, right.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
So there's not only other fees for these permits, but
once you count the time it takes of delays on
the city's time, there's costs of financing. So Denver's average
plan review time for major residential projects is two hundred
and nine days. Other cities wait times are significantly lower.
(04:31):
We looked at Salt Lake Cities was just forty five days.
So whether you're a developer or a family building your
own home, this extended wait time means your incurring costs
for months and months before you can actually move in.
So we estimate the gap between Denver and Salt Lake
City's timeline represents about nine thousand dollars an avoidable financing come.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
You also looked at some other fees, especially I want
to talk about the Denver's water system development fee because
you found it was ninety one percent above the national average.
What exactly are they doing with that exorbitant amount of money?
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Right yep.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
Water is definitely one that stands out in Colorado, and
a lot of that has to do with water scarcity
issues and the cost of buying water rights for some
of these suburbs around Denver especially, But the basic idea
is that when you build a new home, the main
water line down the street needs to be extended, and
who's going to pay for that cost? So that rests
(05:31):
heavily upon new home builders. And we also noted that
not only is Denver's feed very high, but surrounding suburbs
fees are actually two to three times higher than Denver's
water system development fee. And that's where we're seeing a
lot of the growth and new housing developments, just for
the fact that there's more space than some of those suburbs,
so huge expense for Colorado and its building houses.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
I live in Douglas County where it feels like they
have just sprinkled housing seeds all over the place because
they're just sprouting up like mushrooms. How do the outer
suburbs like when you look at the overall cost? Did
you guys analyze the outer suburbs versus Denver?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
Just?
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I know you did other cities, But was there a
Was there a county where things are better and counties
where they are worse?
Speaker 4 (06:16):
I guess what I'm asking.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yep, depends where you want to live.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
So if you look out in Lamar, fees can be
as low as three thousand dollars, and if you want
to live in Arvada water system development fees can be
as high as forty thousand dollars. So it varies quite
a bit. For those interested in going deeper, you can
look on our website. We have a map of probably
twenty to thirty cities in the state to show you
the wide range. But yeah, you're right, it varies quite
(06:43):
a bit depending on what suburb or what town you're
in in the state. Anywhere from three thousands of forty
six thousand dollars to connect to the waterline.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I don't get me wrong, I do believe that new
developments need to have skin in the game when it
comes to the infrastructure that they need to make these
new developments. I'm not opposed to that because that does
feel more like a fee for service. But what I'd
love to see is the justification for this wild disparity
in the fees that these different cities and towns are charging.
I mean, I really think it probably has to do
(07:12):
with who could pass it with no one paying attention, right,
new people are not going to be at the city
council meeting or wherever these decisions are made. Did you
guys have any sort of rhyme or reason where there
is there an explanation given or is it just in Oravada.
Here's your forty thousand dollars bill.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
YEP.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
For this study, we really were just collecting the facts,
so we have the data for all these various cities.
We don't have the line items that the city uses
those funds for, but you can just see from the
variation that there's obviously different approaches city to city of
the size of fees that they're willing to ask for.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
And then the use would be another question.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Another good perspective is just to compare this across other
cities in the West.
Speaker 2 (07:57):
So water fees in.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Denver are quite similar to those in Cheyenne, but you
look at cities like Phoenix or Bozeman, Salt Lake City, Boise,
our fees are two to three times higher when it
comes to water system development fees.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
What is the impact been on our home building here
in Colorado versus or here in the Denver metro versus
those cities you just mentioned.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
Are we building as many houses now?
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Right? So our benchmark is mostly on the fees.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
We do note that Denver permits for single family homes
have dropped significantly since twenty twenty one. I think we
have it's well into the double digits, maybe a forty
percent decrease in permits for new single family homes since
twenty twenty one.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
How are other cities doing though? Are they continuing to grow?
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And it varies quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
I'd say, we know there's strong growth in cities like
Oklahoma City, Dallas, Omaha. And one thing all those cities
have in common is quite a bit lower fees.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
If you look at.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
We have a chart in our report that has this
the total stacked cost for each of these fees, and
those three cities I mentioned are definitely towards the cheaper end.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Well, you've got a list on this study as well
the most unaffordable housing markets, and you have Colorado at
number twelve in the affordable ranking. How did that have
this ranking come about?
Speaker 2 (09:24):
Right?
Speaker 3 (09:25):
And that actually might be a relatively optimistic ranking. There's
a number of rankings that have come out recently. There's
one from CNBC that's been quoted in quite a few
articles lately. Colorado's towards the bottom, if not the worst
for home affordability, whether you look at the typical single
family home price compared to media and household income, or
(09:46):
if you look in a bit more detail and look
at more variables, Colorado is ranking lower and lower for
the past five or ten years as far as home
affordability rankings.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
What about the affordability? Let me think of how to
ask this. Actually a texture just texted it. They were
asking about water. Where's the future water coming from for
all this development? Is that part of the reason that
water fees are so high? Or do they have to
have a shured supply? I mean our water stuff out here, Andrew,
I'm not going to lie. I'm from Florida, where water
(10:17):
falls out of the sky every day. I've never dealt
with water issues until I moved here, and every time
I start to think I have a handle on it,
this new thing pops up, Like where are these developers
getting assured supply? Is that taken into account in any
of the data that you look through.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
So for our understanding from our research these water system
development fees, there is some overlap in what those funds
are used for. As far as a deep dive in water,
we haven't done that just yet. Obviously a very important
topic for the state, especially this summer with how low
some of the lakes and reservoirs are, so you can
expect some upcoming research on the water topics. But that's
(10:57):
all I have to say. As far as this.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Study's got, how much affordable the affordable housing fees that
have been created by Denver in the state of Colorado,
how much they directly add to the cost of someone
else's home.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Yes, and thank you for bringing that up. So a
lot of these fees, as I mentioned, they exist in
other cities.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
We just happen to be a bit higher.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Now, this affordable housing linkage fee is something quite unique
to Denver. Across the twelve cities we looked at, Portland,
Oregon was the only other city with a comparable fee,
and theirs was actually five times lower than what we
see in Denver. So the Denver fee is eight dollars
and eighteen cents per square foot, and in our study
we based it off of a two thousand square foot
(11:39):
new build home that would total more than sixteen thousand dollars,
which the city collects to create and preserve affordable homes
for low to moderate income families, well.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
Making everybody else pay more.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
I mean, let's be real, we're basically subsidizing the people
who are going to be lucky enough to get into
the program that the government has decided.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
They're the lucky ones.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
They win the prize, and the rest of us just
get to buy a ticket and never cash it.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
I mean, that's me just dumbing things out.
Speaker 1 (12:09):
I do want to ask you something about permitting fees.
The graph that you have in the Common Sense Institute's
report that I'm talking with with Andrew Woodward, the author
of the report, you have a graph of the show
is building permit fees, plan review fees, and trade permits.
Why do some states not have trade permits at all?
Because in Denver they add a sizable chunk onto the
(12:29):
cost of all of these fees. Why do Phoenix and
Cheyenne not have those fees at all?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
Right, So these are all policy issues. It's up to
policy makers whether or not we have these fees, whether
they grow, or whether they cease to exist. So you
a lie note in quite a few cities you mentioned
a few of them, Omaha, Oklahoma City, Nashville, they're missing
a number of these fees. And you'll notice that it's
(13:00):
also correlated with some of the cities that have continued
to see growth in home building in contrast to what
Denver's experienced.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
And the cost is much much lower.
Speaker 1 (13:09):
I mean, we're sitting around six thousand dollars just in
permitting fees, plan review fees, and trade permits, whereas Oklahoma
City is sitting around five hundred bucks.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
It looks like, based on.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
The graph, these are all significant things that government could address.
Speaker 4 (13:23):
But where's the argument, Andrew?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I mean, maybe this is maybe I'm asking the wrong
person this question, but I don't know what a plan
review fee does, but I do know that AI will
do it better and faster than the people probably in
that office. So at what point do we start to
see some of these flow expensive systems start to get better.
I mean, I guess we have to have different people.
(13:47):
I'm answering my own questions. Andrew, you don't even need
to be here for this part of the interview. It's
just it's frustrating when you see it laid out like this,
and you know that government can do better, but they
don't have any incentive to do better because their answer
is always another program for affordable housing for the chosen few,
while increasing the costs on everyone else. It becomes this
(14:08):
sort of, you know, self fulfilling prophecy of housing gets
more expensive because they make it more expensive, but for
a few, they're going to make it cheaper. And it's
a frustrating cycle. And I wish there was more I
could do to change it right now. But I appreciate
the incredibly hard work that you did on this to
sort of open everybody's eyes on what that actually looks
like in practice. Andrew Woodward, I appreciate your time today
(14:29):
and everything you do a common sense great Thank you
many all right, that is Andrew Woodward. You can read
the study in its entirety at my website. You can
link to it at mandyblog dot com.
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