08-03-26 FULL SHOW - Krista Kafer Fills In

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Mandy Connell Show is sponsored by Belle and Pollock
Accident and injury Lawyers.

Speaker 2 (00:05):
No, it's Mandy Connell manna on KLA ninety one.

Speaker 3 (00:15):
Got way guy can the nicety through grey Bandy Connell
keeping no, really sad thing. Is this a microphone? What
is the Oh, it's a microphone. It's been a while.
It's been a long, long while. This is Christy Kafer.

(00:35):
I'm sebbing in for Mandy Connell and I've got grant
ably handling things behind the glass. It it's been a
little while maybe, Uh yeah, it's been like five months,
I think. So it's like, okay, what is it? It's
a mic. It's a mic. Uh, this is the first
time you've ever heard this this voice. Then, let me
tell you a little bit about me. I used to

(00:56):
do a lot of radio less so now I'm more read,
not heard, if you will. I'm a Denver Post columnist. Also,
i do Colorado Inside Out. It's a little bit of
TV there, and uh yeah, a lot of writing I
write for I've got my own substack if you if
you do that kind of thing, you can subscribe there
and you can check me out on Twitter at at

(01:18):
Christa Ka for every story that we do in the
next three hours. I've got up there. You want to
see the original. And anyway, what else gonna say about myself?
I'm a native Colorado I uh okay, Yeah, I'm a
Western girl. I can ride a horse, I can dress game,
I can shoot a gun. I know the lyrics of
every John Denver song. Yeah, I got the cred. I'm

(01:43):
a little terrible. Well, I'm a lot terrible. Actually, I'm
ridiculously bad at fishing. But I do know how to
gut a fish and I can fry them up just fine.
I make pretty good elk chili as well. So yeah,
that's my Western cred. As for political science type stuff,
worked for a couple members of Congress, think Tank. It's

(02:05):
some radio done, some TV, you know the stuff. So
it is absolutely it's absolutely wonderful to be here today
in place of Mandy Connell, as if anyone could ever
be truly in place with Mandy Connell. She's a great host.
The other thing I do a lot of is reading history. Yeah,
like four to four to six nonfiction books a month.

(02:28):
I guess you could say I don't have much of
a life. I am a little grounded right now because
of some health issues. So I have made up for
it in just the sheer amount of words I've dumped
into my head. We're actually gonna have one of the
authors of one of the books that I'm reading right now,
this Vast Enterprise, A New History of Lewis and Clark
by Craig Furman. She's gonna be our guest in the

(02:51):
third hour, so that should be fin It is a
terrific book if you like history, and even if you
don't like history because you think it's gonna be the
old dry style. You know, here's some dates, here's some times,
so and so did this, so and so do that.
Just in the last I would say thirty forty years,
things have really changed with the way history is written.

(03:12):
Whether we're talking Steve Ambrose, a number of other writers
that Meacham, a number of other people that have that
have just done amazing, amazing biographies, amazing tales of history.
Even this year, I've read some that they read like fiction,
yet they are nonfiction. And I like to joke I

(03:35):
have great taste in nonfiction and terrible taste in fiction.
I read basically murder mysteries, and my friends are always
like you're kind of deep. Let me give you a
really deep, you know, something deep to read that's fiction,
and I'll be like, ugh, does it have a like
a body in it, or like a car chase or

(03:57):
some zombies? Yeah? Yeah, so uh and also hello, I
have to say hello to the haters out there. I
always have like two people the minute my voice goes on,
They're like, we don't like you. Well, I get that
you're you idolize certain politicians. And all I can say
is this, I'm just glad. I'm glad you never met

(04:19):
Jim Jones, just just for your sake. But take care anyway,
getting some other great comments coming in, and uh, oh
this is nice. Somebody said I recognized your voice immediately.
Do you know you have a great voice. I actually
think I could do smooth jazz pretty well. This is

(04:39):
Krista Kaefer and welcome back, Welcome back to smooth Jazz. So, uh,
before I go off on smooth jazz, let me tell
you what else I've got heading into the next couple
of hours. We've got the the author in the third hour. Okay, yes,
I'm putting on my reading glasses right now, sad. Let's
see we've got which Colorado lawmaker was rated in the

(05:04):
bottom five for worst congressional office.

Speaker 4 (05:08):
Hm.

Speaker 3 (05:10):
And we're talking five out of all of them, not
just the House of Representatives, but also the US Senate.
One Colorado Colorado lawmaker made the bottom five. These are
ratings by their own staff. Yeah, it's a little sad. Anyway,
we'll get to that person coming up. Also, let's see

(05:34):
independent enters the Denver congressional race. Yeah, as soon as
malat kiros one. If you know anything about her, I
know Mandy's talked about her. She is pretty far left
and so an independent guy. He's a independent. He's not
a Democrat, although he is a person on the left,

(05:54):
and he seems like a really neat guy. I listened
to an interview on colorad to public radio, and he's seen,
if you are a Democrat and you are in Denver,
or even if you're a Republican and you really want
maybe to give somebody a chance, because I mean voting
rep I vote Republican generally, but I can understand that

(06:16):
if you want to say, hey, maybe we can get
behind a moderate Democrat or a moderate left leaning guy,
maybe that'll work. He might be he might be worth
looking into. He's a doctor and he's definitely a lot
less radical than Kiros. We'll talk a little bit about him.
Democrats are saying they've got a chance to win Colorado Springs.

(06:37):
Got a little inside information on that race. Also, population
decline hits Denver schools. So some serious stuff. But before
we get serious, did you see there was a guy who,
rather than be stuck in traffic on US thirty six
going from Denver to Boulder, was like, you know what,

(06:58):
I'm just going to take the bioclaim And it's one
of the biplanes that's set off to the side. It's
not attached to the highway to be dangerous it is.
It's like all the way over to the side, and
there's a guy just driving down the road, driving down
the bike lane. Now it would have been I think,
less funny if there have been bicyclists on it. Obviously,

(07:19):
then it would have been a tragedy. But there is
a line between comedy and tragedy, and he stayed he
or she stayed on the side of comedy. And I
suspect this person actually got where they intended to go,
as opposed to everybody else who was stuck in traffic.
You know what politicians can do to immediately get rid

(07:41):
of the congestion that we see on these roads, Just
get rid of those damn hove lanes. I think they're
well intentioned. Oh we'll just get everyone a carpool. Nobody carpools.
Everyone's going to their own thing. I looked it up
sometimes I teach it a couple of different universities. In
order to get to one of them, I would have
to say, spend three hours on the bus. There's nobody

(08:03):
coming from my neck of the woods. There's no one
to carpool with. So this idea that somehow people will
carpool or will take the bus. They might if it's
super convenient, but otherwise they will be the driving their
own car. So what we see in these places where
there are hoove lanes is a whole bunch of people
crowded in the two lanes that are open lanes. And

(08:27):
then you know, it's like a parking lot in the
two lanes. And then it's there's nobody in the hove lane, right,
because nobody's I mean, finding one other person to carpool with,
much less two other people to carpool with is just
very difficult. To pull off, and so I I would
if I were governor, if I were running for governor,

(08:50):
if I was good at exorcisms, then I could run
for governor. I would. I would exercise those lanes, if
you will, and free them up. Yeah, let the traffic flow.
So you want to watch just a fun little video,
just see somebody breaking the rules in a way that
I'm not saying you should do it. I'm not saying

(09:11):
breaking the law is a good thing. So far the
person has gotten away with it. He's not been caught
to my knowledge. But yeah, there was a guy just
or gal just driving down, driving down the biplane as
if it were the right road. So uh yeah, I
think politicians need to need to need to take heed

(09:33):
that if people are willing to break the law. Maybe
not in every case, not in most cases, maybe the
law needs to be broken and then done away with.
So dead to our first story, Uh yeah, I guess
which Colorado lawmaker made the worst Congressional five offices? Now, think,
don't just think Congress as in the House representatives. Congress

(09:57):
is both chambers, so it's the Senate and it's the House.
And if you have an idea who you can tap
it in at five six, six nine oh, a couple
other folks saying, hey, Christa, welcome back. So yeah, it
is uh, it is good, it is good. Thank you.
So oh, look at all these nice messages. Okay, I'm
not going to read them all, but okay, you made

(10:18):
my day. You made my day anyway. Yeah, just take
a guess five six, six nine oh. While those guesses
are coming in, I'll let you know what I know
about Congress. So back when I was young, when the
world was young, when I was in my twenties, I
was I sarved for. I actually was in three different offices.

(10:38):
I was with Joel Heffley, initially as an intern. That's
where I got to know Jeff Crank, who is now
serving in the Colorado Springs district. He was the chief
of staff. I was an intern. I was yeah, yeah,
very very young, very naive, years away from developing the

(11:00):
cynicism that I have become really quite so good at.
So that was the first office. Second office was Bob Schaeffer.
So those of you up in the north or Collins area,
or if you're over in the eastern part of the state,
you know that he held that district for a number
of years. Bob is a terrific person. And Bob so

(11:21):
he served in Congress and then you went on. While
he was serving in Congress, I think even before that,
he and his wife helped start a school that ended
up becoming the best school in the state by a
number of different indicators, tests and ap thing. I mean,
just on a variety of tests. The Liberty Commons School

(11:44):
is is just doing an exemplar work and it's a
charter school, which means it has to take anybody that applies.
It's not a private school. I think private schools are
great too, But yeah, they're doing great up there, actually
expanding campuses and just they're just doing great work. So Bob, Bob,
Bob's a great guy at a great time in that office.

(12:05):
I started off a low man on the totem pole.
I was the person who was doing the capital tours
and opening mail, getting phone calls, that kind of thing.
This was before email. Yeah, it was back you know,
we had invented the wheel back then, but we didn't
have email. And I was there and then I was

(12:26):
with a guy named David Macintosh from Indiana, and that
was my member of the second Member of Congress that
I worked for before going to work for a think tank,
and yeah, it was a great experience. You have an
idea though, of who you think the worst member of
Congress is of the Colorado Delegation, Senate or House that

(12:46):
made the top, sorry, the bottom, the top bat if
you will, the bottom five Congressional offices according to staff members.
Let me know what you think, five, six, six, nine. Oh,
so there was a you know, there's an app for
that for everything. I'm one of those people that I've
had a really kind of enough of apps. So anytimes
someone's like, do you want our app, I'm like, no,

(13:08):
don't want your damn app. But some apps are useful.
This one seems pretty interesting. It's called the Capital CNCT
the scoop. It's an app for folks that work in Congress.
Needs to be staff, not members, and staff can then
rate their office anonymously. I mean, it is confirmed they

(13:32):
work there, so you can't just be an outsider who's like,
I'm going to give this person a a thumbs up
or a thumbs down. This has got to be somebody
who works there and that is verified, and then they
get to anonymously rate their office and their staff member
because not everyone who's a boss should be a boss.

(13:53):
There are people who are members of Congress who are terrible.
Maybe they're good at voting, maybe they've got a good
voting around, but they're really really bad when it comes
to handling staff. Their their tyrants. They yell, they scream,
some of them, some of them hit on their staff members. Chuck,

(14:15):
a guy named Chuck Edward just got censured by the
House of Representatives. He's a Republican from North Carolina, and
it said that he of course he said he didn't
do these things, but it looks like he hit on
a number of his his staff members, female staff members.
I don't know if or if you just said inappropriate things,

(14:37):
but whatever. And I have to say I very much
appreciate that I worked for two members of Congress, both Republicans,
but you know, it doesn't matters. Bad behavior is definitely bipartisan.
But I worked for two very good people who never
once said anything remotely untoward to any of the staff members.

(14:57):
In fact, we were all for the same. They had
eyes only for their wives. They're still married to the
same woman, no affairs, nothing, They were just into their wives.
And that's the way it ought to be. You don't
hit on your staff members. I don't care if it's
I don't care if it's your female and you're hitting

(15:18):
on your male staff members, I don't care if it's
male and you're hitting on your female staff members. I
can't think of her name right now. It's kind of
an odd gal. Senator from Arizona came out later. I
guess she had an affair with Maybe it's her bodyguard.
Most of them don't have bodyguards. Maybe it's a staff member,
so it can go the other way. It's not just

(15:39):
men hitting on women. But yeah, so it is not
just acting like a tyrant, yelling and screaming. There are
also people who do other bad behavior Erica Swallwell for example,
Tony Gonzalez both have since left office. Ken Paxton, he's

(16:00):
for Colorado or sorry, Texas Senate, not the Texas Senate,
the Senate to represent Texas. And uh yeah, it's just
like carrying on with his mistress. It's just gross not
to mention he's got some financial improprieties. Then there's the
Max Miller guy Ohio. Turns out he threw hot water

(16:22):
on his soon to be ex wife. Yeah, I just
think just a couple of I don't know column column principles.
I think the job should be a pants stay on
kind of a job. If you are elected to Congress,
just keep the pants on while you're in the office.

(16:45):
If you're going to date, if you're single and you
want to date, don't don't date your don't date staff members.
Another guy got charged with that fairly recently. Date outside
of that. If you are married, marriage really should be
the end of dating. Unless you want to date your spouse,
take them to dinner. That's fine, But so sort of

(17:06):
a pants stay on kind of a thing. To the
money they make six figures, you don't need to be
you know, making you know, let's not do this the
insider trading stuff. Make you make what you make, you
make a lot more. You make twice what the average
American makes. Let's just stick with that. So while you're

(17:27):
in office, you know, keep your maybe keep your wallet shut,
and your pants on, just as some possible principles. So
a couple of car answers coming in. Let's see we've
got Oh, it was Kirsten Cinema, the Arizona senator who
got caught with the I guess she ended somebody's marriage

(17:49):
not cool on either of their part. Also, somebody said
Bobert might be the member that got rated as one
of the worst people to work for. I will say this,
it's not her. She's not the one. So guess again
on that five six six nine, Oh, let's see anybody

(18:10):
else here that any other guests, any other guests. There's
no other guess is just yet? But five six six
nine Oh. We're gonna take a break in about a
minute or so, so it'll give you a chance while
we're on the break. The question is this the new
app put out the Scoop Capital CNCT where staff members

(18:33):
can anonymously report about the toxicity of their office and
the person they work for. What Colorado member of Congress?
We know it's not Bobert. What member of the you know?
It could be a House of Representatives? A representative could
be a senator, which one is one of the worst

(18:55):
offices in the entire Congress to work for? Yes, one
of our very own Colorado delegation made the list. I
don't know that this is something he should be proud of,
So I guess you give you a hint there it
is a he and would love to know who got
another guest here, Diana to get Nope, it was not

(19:17):
to get was somebody else, And so we'll hit that. Let's,
I guess, go ahead and take a little bit of
a break. When we get back, we will get to
some of your answers plus the answer I've got here.
This is Krista Kaefer. I'm sitting in for Mandy Connell,
and you're listening to eight fifty Kowa a little air

(19:38):
in my factual rundown the last segment, so blisting off
those members of Congress who have recently been caught for
bad behavior, none of them in Colorado, thank goodness. But
a guy named Chuck Edward, Republican North Carolina, and I
guess he was saying things that were a bit untoward

(19:58):
to his female staff, and there was a recommendation put
forth by the Ethics Committee that the House censure him,
and I hope they do. I just I really feel
like this. If you're serving Congress, it's a privilege. You
got the faith of the voters, but you keep your
pants on and your wallet closed. Got a fun comment

(20:21):
from a listener saying if politicians had to keep their
pants on and their wallet closed while they were in office,
we wouldn't need term limits. That's pretty good. That's pretty good.
There actually are a number of very good members of Congress.
I know I worked for two of them. But the
bad ones, of course make the headlines as they should.
I think we need to shame every single one of

(20:43):
these people out of office. And we wanted to tell
primary voters vote for somebody that that has ethics. I
don't Otherwise, there are a lot of us are not going
to vote. I vote Republicans typically, but if you put
an unethical person in front of me and that's my option,

(21:05):
I'm not going to vote for that person. Does it
mean I'm going to vote for the Democrat. I'm just
going to sit it out. To quote R. E. M.
Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives, and I decline. Yep,
it's the end of the world as we know. It's
a great song. So we're getting in some more guests
guesses as to who was picked in the bottom five

(21:29):
members of Congress to work for. According to a new
app called the Scoop, in which staffers themselves can anonymously
talk about the office that they've worked in, and they
are they do make sure that that person does in
fact work there, so it's not that you know. It's
not like I could go on the app right now.
I'd be like, the person's sure you actually have to

(21:51):
work there. It does get verified. It's a couple more guesses.
My friend Ross says Peterson, No, it wasn't her. Got
a couple of people, let's see, oh this, Briston says
she thinks Brittany Peterson seems really sweet. I don't know.
I have never met her. Diana to Get No, Diana
to Get is not in the bottom five. A couple

(22:12):
people said Hick and Looper, not Hick and Looper. One
person said Jeff Crank, Nope, wasn't Jeff. I actually know Jeff.
We worked together for Congressman Hefley, but feels like five
hundred years ago. Jason Crow, Nope, wasn't Crow. I will
say this on the air. I think Crow is one
nice looking man. Never met him, didn't vote for him.

(22:37):
Am not way far to the left from my taste,
But anyway, anybody else in here, let's see. Uh No goose, Nope,
wasn't a goose. Wasn't Hick and Looper. A couple people
guessed correctly. The seemingly mild mannered. Michael Bennett. Senator Michael

(22:58):
Bennett was in the top or sorry, the top bad,
the bottom five, bottom five members of Congress in terms
of working for them. So it's not in terms of
how they vote, not in terms of, you know, how
effective they may or may not be, but in terms
of treatment of staffy. There was a bunch of people

(23:21):
that five that we were rated very low, and one
of them was Senator Michael Bennett. And I don't know
if that's been the case all along or just because
he was kind of, you know, trying to run for
another office while serving in office, or if he's just
somebody who doesn't manage staff well. And what does that

(23:43):
look like? I had had friends when I was a
Capitol Hill staffer who worked for members of Congress who
were horrible to work for. And how did you, I see,
how do you know? So is there a lot of
young staffers there in their twenties maybe early thirties. You
end up at the same parties, the same the same meetings,
different things, and you tie to people and you would say, oh,

(24:05):
so and so, what's it like to work for them?
And if they said, oh, yeah, he's great, you you know,
they were telling the truth if they have said something,
because nobody's going to say something negative about their boss
to other staffers directly, So what they would say is
something kind of damning by faint praise, if you will.

(24:25):
It'd be like, uh, he's interesting or she's highly effective.
And I'd say it'd always say it the same way too,
zero enthusiasm, like how's yeah, oh so and so that
he's a he's the chairman of the committee. What what's
he like to work for? He's very prepared, he's very smart,

(24:46):
he's very in tuned with constituents. Yeah, they always seem
sort of robotic monotone, as compared to somebody who said, oh, yeah,
that person's greater. We know we have a great staff.
So yeah, you always knew, and they knew.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
You knew.

Speaker 3 (25:01):
Everybody knew. This person was not someone you could work for.
Usually it had to do with just them being a yeller,
somebody who yelled, who put their staff down, who was nasty.
And there are members of Congress like that, super arrogant,
the kind of people that you simply don't want to
work for. I have only met I met Michael Bennett once
long time ago, when he was the superintendent of Denver Schools,

(25:24):
and he seemed nice enough. But of course everyone's nice
enough when they meet a potential constituent. So I don't
know what he's like to work for. But according to
staff members, it's it's not pretty. It's not pretty, and
it's unfortunate. I have met a couple of days, so
I've met well else if I met. I've met Hickenlooper

(25:45):
a couple of times. He's actually nice. I don't know.
Somebody here said he's really hard to work for, a
real jerk. I again, if you're meeting it potential constituent,
they're always going to be nice. How people treat their staff, however,
says a whole lot about them if they cannot be

(26:06):
pleasant to the people who are trying to make their plans.
Their plans happened in Congress, and it takes a whole staff.
When I was their congressional staff, Let's see, you would
have one person that answered the phone, usually two people
who answered letters, maybe three people who did different issues research,

(26:29):
did talking points, wrote speeches, things like that, looked up,
you know, kept on top of votes and drafting legislation.
You never drafted it yourself. There was like a lawyer.
There were these lawyers that did that. So you'd meet
with the lawyer and draft the legislation because it has
to be in a certain format. You'd have a chief
of staff and they'd have somebody who did press, and
then out in the district you would have a number

(26:50):
of district offices that met with constituents, handled some local stuff,
and all of those offices look kind of the same
in that if you're having a problem, you're not getting
your Social Security check, for example, you can go to
your local congressional district office. Doesn't matter if they're a Democrat, Republican,
doesn't matter what you are. You can get the help

(27:12):
you're entitled to get. And those people know exactly what
they're doing. So back when Mike Kaufman was congressman, he's
now mayor of Aurora. It's one of a few politicians
I know. He's a really good guy. I could not
get my visa to go to Pakistan, and they drag
their feet for like eight months to give it to me,

(27:33):
and so I had the congressional staff intervene for me
to be able to get that passport because they actually
had my passport like Pakistan had my passport you don't
really want. I know nothing I'm wrong with Pakistan, but
certain countries not the most organized, you really don't necessarily
want them with your passport. But his office intervened. So

(27:55):
if you have a problem like that that requires the
government to get involved with, don't worry. If you are
a Democrat in a Republican district or a Republican in
a Democratic district, you can go to that person to
get that ironed out, because that's what they do, and
it doesn't matter a wit what the politics are at

(28:16):
that level. So that's what a congressional staff looks like it.
The work is not nearly as exciting as it appears.
And so when I hear people like milette Kiros, who
is running for District one, and other politicians say we
you know, we're gonna fight like hell, or their constituents

(28:36):
saying we want someone who will fight like hell. When
we get back from this break, I'm going to tell
you why it's impossible impossible to fight like hell. When
we get back. This is Christa Kaefer. I'm sitting in
for Mandy Connell Grant helping behind the screen, and we're
getting it done. You're listening to eight fifty koa bottom

(28:57):
five offices to work for, according to an app in
which different members of staffs can, once they're verified to
have actually worked there, can can rate their own boss.
And it's always good to know because jobs change hands
fairly frequently there. So you might be an legislative assistant

(29:19):
for one office and for whatevery reason, you want to
do something different, you want to work for someone different,
And so to be able to check that app and
be like, you know, I don't think I'm going to
work for that office. I don't need to do that.
But grow into this last break and we'll continue in
this vein a little bit in the next hour. Everybody

(29:39):
says I want I want my member of Congress to
fight like hell for me, and you know, I get
the sentiment. We definitely want people to vote well, to
do the back office things that are important to us,
and do that with effectiveness, get out the message, be consistent,
not be a hypocrite. I mean, there are a lot

(30:00):
of ways to be a good member of Congress, be
a good politician anywhere that you're elected actually or even
a non elected official. Things like basic ethics, listening to constituents,
voting in a way that's principled doing what you say
you're going to do. And in fact, when I think
about how I feel about different members of Congress, or

(30:24):
could really be any politician, I ask myself, one, do
I agree with them on the issues? And I may
or may not? And then number two, do I feel
like they have comported themselves in that office in a
way that's commensurate of that office. So did they keep
their word?

Speaker 2 (30:41):
Did they.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
Do what they say they were going to do? Did
they treat the position as an honor and a privilege,
did they debase it? Were they nasty to other people?
Or did they comport themselves with dignity? So they get
kind of like two scores. So take somebody like my own,
my own congressman, Congressman Jason Crowe, for example, I don't

(31:03):
agree with him on much, so I would give him
a low rating on one side. Other side, though from
everything that I can see, of course, I don't see everything.
He seems to comport himself in a way that is
uh that that goes with the position and doesn't seem
to do he doesn't dishonor the position, And so I
think it's a great way to look at different candidates

(31:25):
when you go to vote, is to say, number one,
do I agree with them on the issues, because obviously
you want to agree with them on the issues because
they're going to represent you on those issues in that
body of office. And then two, how do they act?
Are they ethical? Are they decent? It was one time
in my life in which I did vote for a
candidate that I knew was unethical. This candidate represented me

(31:50):
better on the issues and had done some good things,
and I thought to myself, well, what the heck, I
don't want the other guy. He's pretty unethical as well.
I'm going to vote for this, and I deeply regret it.
I deeply regret it because my thought is this, bad
things are going to happen, Bad things will come into
the world. It's sort of it's a loose paraphrase really

(32:10):
of Alexander Schultzenitsen, the great writer of the Archipelago Gulag Archipelago,
dissident from the Soviet Union, that evil will come into
the world, but not through me. I don't think most
of these guys are evil or gals or evil. I
think some of what they're doing is quite pernicious, but

(32:31):
they're being in office is going to happen one way
or the other, but it's not happening with my vote.
And that's kind of where I'm at it. As we
go into the next segment, I'm going to talk a
little bit about malat Heiros far left socialist democrat that
won the primary, the new independent candidate, and why voters

(32:51):
were wrong in Denver to get rid of to get
in favor of someone they thought would fight like hell,
because honestly, you can't. And I'll tell you why. This
is Krista sitting in for Mandy Connell on eight p
fifty KOA.

Speaker 1 (33:11):
The Mandy Connell Show is sponsored by Belle and Pollock
Accident and Injury Lawyers.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
No, it's Mandy Connell and Dono on KOA.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
Ninetem got wait say Kenny got three?

Speaker 2 (33:33):
Mandy Donald keeping No, really sad bab.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
Good afternoon, Colorado. This is Krista kay first seving for
Mandy Connell. And I think if I had a theme song,
I would want the Beastie Boys to sing it. I just,
you know, some little edgy something a little different anyway
about me. I'm a Denver Post columnist and sometimes I'm
on just like once a month. I'm on Colorado and

(34:00):
if you if you like a little political, a little pitical,
little political television, that will make you a little smarter,
not a little dumber. And let's face it, some of
those if you're watching the View for example, and you
know some of the right wing shows as well, you'll
come away from that actually with a lower IQ. So

(34:21):
I don't recommend it, But if you want to go
into a show and actually come out a little smarter,
I recommend Colorado. Win's Side Out. It's on eight o'clock
on Channel twelve here in Denver. If you're not here
in Denver, then you'll have to go online to check
it out, but you can. You can listen to it
as like a podcast. You can watch it on your computer,

(34:41):
you can watch it on your TV if you're in Denver.
And it's great. It's just it's a great show. Kyle
Dyer of formerly of nine News, she's the one that hosts,
does a great job. And it's all just interesting people
right and left, pretty balanced, and you know, some are
journal less, some are commentators like me, some are activists,

(35:04):
and we just talk about the issues and no one
talks over each other. No one's mean people just like
lay out what they think and it's interesting and you
get some different views. So it's uh yeah, I recommend it.
And it's only a half hours, so you know, it's quick.
You go in, maybe do something else, like you're making dinner.
You can just watch it, right And I've got a

(35:25):
substack if you want to subscribe to it, just go
to Christa Kaefer and you could check me out on
Twitter at at Christa Kaifer. It's one of the nice
things that one of the nice things about having an
unusual name. I am the only, to my knowledge, the
only Christa Kaefer in the entire world. Last name means
beatle in German, and it's not even a common name

(35:49):
in Germany, although you will see it there. And uh yeah,
so if you see my name, chances are guilty, you know.
So yeah, that's enough about me. Well, I will say
one of the quick things. I absolutely love to read.
I read a ton and I read about this is crazy,

(36:09):
like four to six nonfiction books a month. And part
of that's because I'm I'm dealing with some health stuff,
so I can't go and hike and do the stuff
I like to do. I've got just enough energy for
gardening and walking the dog and you know, but I've
been tearing through books. And one of the books that
I'm reading right now is called The Vast Enterprise. It's

(36:31):
a new history of Lewis and Clark. It's by Craig Furman.
I reached out to him and he's going to join
us in the third hour, which is awesome, and he
just seems super nice. The book is just really really good.
And I am constantly just just reading, like mad I'm
reading a book by Noah Feldman. He's a Harvard historian.

(36:54):
It's on Madison, the Let's see the Fourth President, I'll
so the drafter of the US Constitution. And just burning
through books. And if you want my reading list, if
you're like, dude, I love books, don't call me dude.
I shouldn't have said that. Hey, Chris, dad, I love books.
Love to have your reading list, So just reach out

(37:15):
to me on Twitter and I'll send it to you.
I have burned through four to six a month, all nonfiction.
And yeah, if I was going to read fiction and
he's going to write more, he only writes about a
book a year, I would read more. CJ. Box. I
read all of his books last year in three months
on an audi like an audible format read. I was

(37:36):
reading a book every two days. They're that good. You know,
when I was walking the dog, cleaning the kitchen, whatever,
I was just reading these books. They were so good.
And then Roz Kaminsky, who's on in the Morning, did
an event with him and so we got to actually
hear him talk. He lives in Wyoming. He's just super
cool and he's a great writer. So I do occasionally

(37:56):
read non our fiction, and if I do, it's usually mysteries.
So I've got these These friends were like Christa, he
seems so deep. You should read this book I heard
about an NPR. It's like all about tragedy and the
human mind, and it's it's fiction and it's super deep.
I'm like, no, it needs to have a like a

(38:18):
car crash in it, a body. It's got to be
a murder mystery. Same goes for TV. People always trying
to push stuff on me that's like, oh, it's so
serious and in depth. I'm like, does it have zombies
in it?

Speaker 2 (38:30):
Is it?

Speaker 3 (38:30):
If it has zombies in it, you know I'm in
And I think that the addition, I won't go on
this sidetrack too much longer before we go back to
dysfunction junction and in Congress. But I think the addition
of zombies to movies, it could really improve them. So
think about that Barbie movie. I hated that movie is

(38:53):
so dumb, but imagine it if it had zombies in it,
and the zombies were eating, killing and eating the Barbies,
that would have been awesome. Other movies that have come out,
you know, I think about Millennia with zombies. Think about
any of the you know, uh, think about any of
the woke movies that come out that are you know,

(39:15):
very political. At a couple of zombies, you know, I mean,
they're not a lot of brains for them to eat.
They might starve, But I think it could be a
positive addition to a lot of boring, boring stuff out there. Anyway,
end of soapbox, they got another soapbox. And that is

(39:36):
what actually goes on in Congress. So I've been watching
this a couple of different races. Right now. There is
a race between doctor Abdul l said. This is in Michigan.
It's for the Senate. So Senate is a big deal.
Senate there, they're in office longer obviously, they represent the
whole state, and they have certain prerogatives that the House

(39:57):
does not. The House also has certain prerogatives as well,
but the Senate confirms. And one of the things that
I very much appreciate about the Trump presidency is that
he has nominated a lot of great judges, including some
really terrific Supreme Court justices like Amy Cony Barrett, and
he needs the Senate to confirm those. If the Senate

(40:20):
refuses to confirm, then it's it's a problem. And uh so, Senate, Senate,
it's a big deal. So on the left side of
the that the Michigan has not had a primary yet.
On the in their primary, they have a moderate, Hailey Stevens,
running in the Democratic primary against doctor Abdul l said

(40:43):
also running for this primary position. Then that person will
then go before go up against the Republican. Michigan is
a true purple state, you know, like what Colorado used
to be, where it could you know, I could send
a Democrat, it could send a Republican, not like here
where it's almost hopeless to win statewide as a Republican.

(41:05):
In Michigan, you got about a fifty to fifty chance.
And so I think that so this raises a big deal.
This person could be Michigan's next senator, doctor Abdul l Sayid,
hardcore lefty centrist Hailey Stevens. Does this make you think

(41:26):
about anything that has maybe happened in Colorado? Well, yes,
because the battle for the soul of a party isn't
just a Republican phenomena in the Democrats. You've got the
far left contesting the moderate Democrats for these positions. And
it happened here in the state Diana to get long serving.

(41:49):
I had met her once and it was a long
time ago, thirty years ago. She was in office. I
petted her dog, a nice dog. She was running a
part of a person seemed to come out of nowhere.
Did the hard work. I'll give that to malat Kiros.
She's pretty, she's dynamic, she worked hard, Let's give her that.

(42:09):
But she is on the far far left, and as
a woman of the far left, she's actually a formal
member of the so called Democratic Socialists. I don't know
why they even have the word democratic in there, to
be honest, I think it's because they want to infer
that they caucus with Democrats. But here's the deal. They're

(42:29):
all socialists all the time. And I don't throw that around.
I'm not one of those people who are like, if
I disagree with someone it's because they were communists. No,
but words mean things. And when you look at their
they've got like a platform out there that you can
look up. You can see that it's all socialist all
the time. It's also the things they want to do.
You would have to change the constitution. You would need

(42:53):
a congressional like you would need to have a constitutional convention.
He would need to have it. You have to change
the constitution. It's not something that could just be done.
And there's stuff on there, like getting rid of the Senate.
It have a unicameral legislature. And you might be thinking, what,

(43:15):
what's the big deal. I mean, I don't want to
amend the constitution, but why do we really need the Senate,
Because it seems like we've got these two bodies. When
legislation passes on one side, it's still got to pass
on the other before it goes to the president, you know,
and then the president's got to sign it, and the
courts can still strike it down. That really kind of
jumbles things up. Well, here's the thing, the way Madison

(43:38):
wrote the Constitution. He had help from some of the
other guys as well. They put those checks and balances,
those competing powers, those hitches, those roadblocks in there for
a reason. It's so that you wouldn't have tyranny of
the majority. And to see what tyranny of the major

(44:00):
already looks like. You don't have to just imagine, like, huh,
what would that look like. You can actually see it
by reading about the French Revolution. So the French Revolution
happens just after the American Revolution, in fact, a bit
inspired by ours. But instead of going with a constitution,

(44:20):
like we started off with the Articles of Confederation, but
we eventually got the Constitution. Instead of going that direction,
they thought, you know what, We're just going to have
a unicameral, a single chamber legislature. Well, when you have
a single chamber legislature, there's no hitch. I mean, you
still have to get I guess, the approval of the executive,

(44:41):
but it's very easy to pass legislation. It means that
the majority can then foist its will on the minority.
They also didn't have a Bill of rights, so it
was only a matter of time before people started to
lose their property and then ultimately started to lose their heads. Yes,

(45:03):
unicameral is a bad idea. Now I will one little
caveat It does seem to work okay for Nebraska. Nebraska.
I think it was during the Great Depression they got
rid of one of their chambers so that they could
I think, save money. They don't seem to. Uh, they haven't.
They haven't locked anybody's heads off. But given the level

(45:24):
of rancor at the national level, I can guarantee things
we get ugly pretty fast pretty soon. Before we talk
a little bit about malat Ciros and a new candidate
on the scene, doctor Shimoon Blau. What did answer question
somebody posed via the text line five sixty six nine, Oh,

(45:45):
this person says, Mitch McConnell dead or live the charade?
Can't continue live, interview or take yourself out of office?
Enough is enough? I get your sentiment. I get the frustration.
Here's the reason why. And I know he's had some
poor health. I do think he is alive.

Speaker 4 (46:01):
He is.

Speaker 3 (46:02):
All he has to do basically is make it to
the election. The reason he has not stepped down is
that he does not want I presumably does not want
the governor to nominate somebody to take his place, thereby
giving that person an advantage come election time. It would
it's better for him to hold out. And you might say, well,
that's not fair playing hardball like that. He's not the

(46:24):
only one. There have been members of Congress that was one.
I read it was out like three years. Just definitely
seems a little a little long. These sort of things happen,
and I can guarantee if the R was replaced by
a D the same things would happen. You know, you
hold out with the advantages that you have until you

(46:46):
don't have them. And so I don't expect that he
will be resigning anytime soon. I do expect that he
will make it. He probably will pop up before the election,
but he's not going to resign. This person says Trump
is destroying the checks and balances right now. He's got
the Supreme Court in his pocket, and Congress is full
of cowards who only speak the truth when they're on

(47:08):
their way out. I disagree with your first assertion, but
not your second. Your second assertion I do agree with.
I think there are far far too many cowards in
I'm ino in both parties to be honest, but definitely
cowards in the Republican Party who absolutely refuse to speak

(47:31):
out against the president and his unconstitutional actions until they're
being until they're you know, the door is swinging after
them as they leave office. It's it's a shame. I
understand there's a price to pay for honesty, because I've
paid it myself. That the minute that a congressman congresswoman

(47:51):
is super honest with what they think, what they know
to be true, they will get a primary opponent and
they will get knocked out of Does that mean that
they should not risk it. I think they should risk it. Personally,
I think they should. There's nothing worse. It's better to
lose and look in the mirror and not see a
coward standing staring back at you, which is what a

(48:14):
lot of these people are doing. And I will say,
I want to say there's cowards on the left. That's
true as well for every Republican who refuses to say
the truth about the twenty twenty election, meaning that Trump lost,
Biden won, they are unwilling to say that because they're
afraid of their constituents. There's also another Democrat out there

(48:34):
that refuses to define what a woman is And how
many times have we seen somebody sit behind a chair
with a D behind their name? It answers asks the
question what is a woman? And they go I don't know.
I'm not a doctor, or I don't know. I don't know.
I'm not really competent to answer that question. But you
know what, I bet if I were to ask a

(48:55):
three year old what the difference is between a man
and a woman, they could answer the question. I work
with dogs a lot different different things that I do
with K nine stuff. I tell what dogs know. Dogs
know by your scent whether you're male or female, So
a non sentient being can answer that one. I guess

(49:18):
dogs are sentient, but not to the degree that humans are.
Dogs know whether you're male or female. Children know where
whether you're male or female. And yet as soon as
a guy on the left gets on the stand in
some hearing, they suddenly are like, I don't know. I
just don't know. I'm not qualified to say okay. In

(49:39):
the same way, put a Republican representative from a hard
read district and say who won the twenty twenty election.
They know the truth, they know that Trump lost, and
yet they'll go, I don't know, I think that that
we're still looking at the evidence. Okay, maybe maybe you
know what a man is and a woman is, but

(50:00):
I'm not sure you qualify in the uh the former anyway. Sorry, well,
waxing a little sarcastic there, waxing a little sarcastic. I
will say, so, yes, there are cowards. Here's where I
will say this person is wrong. I have a lot
of faith in the Supreme Court. And if you look
at the actual decisions there is the vast majority of

(50:21):
them are unanimous. Only a small segment maybe ten percent
or less. After to look at the exact number are
actually decided part of are you know, run five four, six'.
Three it's a pretty small. Percentage and you do get
a fair in number of Particularly republicans crossing over to
demes or dem appointed. Justices you get More republicans going

(50:44):
over To dems Than dems going over To. Republicans and
you do get a lot of pushback on some of
the things That trump has. Done and and for that,
pushback think About Amy Coney. Barrett the minute she admitted
that she had GOTTEN us, threats there were folks on
the right, saying, well then you should step. Down so

(51:05):
they get pushed back from both. Sides AND i have
a lot of respect for the. Court i've been in
the court. Room i've actually seen them in. Action it
is Uh they're a good. Body they do their. Best
are they? Perfect, no nobody, is but yeah so uh,
yeah SO i. DO i don't think he's got the
court in his. Pocket they have ruled against. Him he,

(51:26):
sure he sure gets, Mad BUT i will say this
is true that that that That congress is full of.
Cowards NOW i did tease BEFORE i went to the,
break and then we'll hit another break. Momentarily and then
when we get back to, this is that When congress people, say,
well If i'm, Elected i'm gonna fight like hell for,

(51:47):
you which is something That i'm a Lot curros said,
fight you, know going up against a long time incumbent
to get the. Voter body, said, well, yes we need
someone who. Fights she's not fighting. ENOUGH i would argue
she was fighting, Enough and here's, why do you know
what fighting really looks. LIKE i gotta back it up

(52:11):
one step to Say i've been. There i've been a congressional.
STAFFER i have friends who are members Of. Congress it's
not Mister smith goes To. Washington it's not like you
go out on The house floor and you give a super,
great fiery, speech you, know if you put your life
blood into, it and then suddenly all of your members

(52:32):
Of congress they're all, watching they're all, odd and they all,
go you're, right you've changed our. Minds we'll do what you.
Want it doesn't happen that. Way it's just a lot
of boring stuff every single, day little tiny victories and
a lot of small. Losses and if you're in the,
minority all you can do is talk or work with

(52:55):
the majority to advance very small. Changes take my word for,
it somebody like Malat ciros is actually going to be
less effective Than diana to get because she is probably
less likely to work with the, majority Assuming republicans keep the,
majority to advance small victories changes in you, know it's

(53:19):
an amendment here and amendment. There it's having committee staff
change a few words, here change a few words, there
giving hot speeches on, YouTube going ON cnn Or Fox. News,
yeah it may look like that person's fighting like hell
for their. Constituents they're not doing anything but preaching loudly

(53:42):
to the. Choir what it requires making any kind of
advancements in a body Like congress is the ability to
work with other. People and If kiros is less likely
to do, that THEN i think the voters of that
district should take a look At Shimon. Blau i'll tell
you more about him we get back from this. Break

(54:02):
this Is Christa. KAEFER i am sitting in For Mandy
connell and you're listening to a FIFTY. Koa if you're
in a bad mood and you want to stay in
a bad, mood you listen to beastie boys if you
want are in a good mood and you want to
stay in a good. Mood or let's, say if you're
in a bad mood and you want to you want

(54:24):
to get into a good, mood then you need to
put on dang. IT i just lost his. Name who's
the singer? That, okay it's it's Country, western but with
a hint of swing to. It all my exes live In.
Texas who AM i thinking? About oh he's great And
i's in his later years. NOWADAYS i don't. Know why

(54:45):
can't they give his? Name George? Straight George? Straight, Yeah,
so if you're in a bad mood and you want
to stay in a bad, Mood you're gonna go With Beastie.
Boys if you're in a bad, mood you want to
get in a better, mood you gotta go With George.
Street so forgive the menopause brain. Fun but, YEAH i
do like me some good music and, anyway a couple

(55:05):
of BOOKS i want to just toss out there for
you to. Read LIKE i, Said i've been kind of
like a psycho reader this. Year in Part i'm ALWAYS
i love to. READ i love to read, nonfiction particularly.
History AND i read this disturbing article in The atlantic
about how a lot of people aren't reading. ANYTHING i,
mean they're like reading little you, know social media posts

(55:29):
and actually reading. Books but people who do read are
even reading. More and So i'm pretty sure as readers
are going to take over the, world which wouldn't be so.
Bad so if you're like me and you're, like give
me some, books let me just give you a couple of.
Recommendations just from the last. Month i'm doing about four
to six books a, month some of that on an audible,

(55:49):
format some of it in uh actually reading. It and
we'll have one of our guests in the third hour
reading one of his. Books and it's. Awesome here's just
a couple if you like. History destiny of The Republic Candice,
millard it's about the presidency Of, garfield not a president
you think much. OF i ALSO u and it's it's

(56:11):
a beautiful. Book she also Did The river Of, doubt
it's About Teddy roosevelt and something he did after he was.
President and then one MORE i Thought American lion By
John meacham read that last month was just was, brilliant
and his biography Of lincoln is bar on the. Best

(56:31):
So i'm not to make my way through all the
presidents and try to do a biography for. Each with
that in, Mind i'm doing The Three lives Of James
madison By feldman and it's it's it's pretty. Good in
addition to that, book this, Month i'm making my way
Through The Vast, enterprise a New history Of lewis And
clark By Craig, furman and we'll have him on in

(56:53):
the next. Hour be stoked about. That so we've got
got some interesting comments coming, in some nice. Kudos. Appreciated
you made my. DAY i even like took a picture
of the screen SO i could share it with my.
MOM i love, it love it and. Anyway this person,
SAYS i went to high school with to GET i
didn't know where as a doctor in their Conservative i've

(57:15):
never voted for. That being, SAID i hate to see her.
GO i actually hate to see her go. TOO i
want to see mainstream right and left in, offices whether you,
know if you're In Colorado. SPRINGS i want to see
a Mainstream republican Like Jeff, crank WHO i know. PERSONALLY

(57:35):
i want him. THERE i Want diana to get to
be In. DENVER i Want Jonah goose to be In.
Boulder that's what reflects those. Districts WHAT i don't want
to see is the far right or the far. Left in,
Fact i'm even going to say that they aren't less
effective than people in the. Mainstream and here's. Why if

(57:55):
it comes down to being on, YouTube putting out in
flammatory statements On, twitter getting ON cnn Or Fox, news you,
know yelling or doing something LIKE aofc is always doing
something dramatic and, stupid like you, know protesting and pretending
to be in handcuffs when she's. Not, yeah THAT i

(58:18):
guess that looks effective because it gets, pressed it gets.
Retweeted but it doesn't do. Anything it doesn't Do it
isn't actually pass. Legislation in order to pass, legislation you
have to do a lot of very hard yet boring.
Things and by, BORING i mean you're not up in

(58:38):
front of a whole bunch of, people you, know banging
your finger at your hand on the podium and changing
minds as people are odd by your rhetorical. Skills what
it is is you're working in, committee you're drafting. Legislation
AND i know this. PERSONALLY i used to be A
hill staffer and still have friends In. Congress you're sitting

(58:59):
down with an official lawyer drafter and you're, saying here's
WHAT i want to, accomplish and you put it in,
it puts it into the. Language then you talk to
all of your friends so they sign on to your
bill as. Well talk to different, constituencies lobbyists that will be,
effected for industries that are affected by whatever this thing.
Is they come in and talk to. You you talk

(59:21):
to them some. More if you're, lucky it'll get a
hearing in. Committee hearings are not actually hearings in since
that no one's really. Listening it's essentially a dog and
pony show in which the left brings its, people the
right brings its. People they talk a, lot no one
really listens except to their own, voice and you, know

(59:43):
nothing really. Happens it, does, however advance the bill's prospects
to move. Forward so maybe the bill moves. Forward then
it goes to, committee it gets a, markup it changes
the language there because of. Amendments you got to know
the committee, chairman have a good relationship, there get the.
Votes if you're in the, minority you have to find

(01:00:06):
people in the majority willing to work with, you or
your bill goes. Nowhere eventually it goes to The house
or The senate gets hurt on the, floor it gets
voted on. Again before it gets voted on in The,
house it goes before The Rules, committee they decide how
many amendments will be. Allowed it's all very. Technical it's
a lot of hard. Work it's a lot of working with.

(01:00:29):
People it's a lot about knowing. People and if you
are a fire, breather people won't necessarily want to work with,
you so things don't get. Done so when someone Like
Malott kiro Says i'm here to save the, Day i'm
here to work like hell for. You if she's anything
AND i don't know her, personally if she's anything LIKE,

(01:00:51):
aoc not a whole lot's going to. Happen she's going
to get screen, time and she's not going to affect
any change for the people Of. Colorado and maybe that's
a good, thing because it's probably not the kind of
change we want so to get who wasn't, flashy was
getting things done as much as you can do as
a member of the minority behind the. Scenes TODAY i

(01:01:14):
listened to an interesting. Candidate so this is Doctor Shimon.
Blau he is running as an. Independent he is a
left leaning, person but not a far. Lefty he is
After Malat kiros won the, primary he, THOUGHT i got
to do my. Part i'm going to run as an.

(01:01:34):
INDEPENDENT i don't have him on for you to listen
to him me interviewing. Him IF i was going to
sub again this, WEEK i would try to make that.
Happen so WHAT i would recommend is go To Colorado
Public radio and listen To Ryan. Warner he interviews. Me
it's a really solid, interview AND i think you're gonna
like this. Guy if you're A democrat in ced one

(01:01:57):
and you're turned off by the far left. Extremism AND
i don't use that. Word it doesn't roll off my.
TONGUE i don't think everyone's an. Extremist but if you've
signed up to be a democratic, socialist if you've looked
at their, platform it is extreme. Left it's things like
get rid of The. Senate, right it's about curbing rights Of,

(01:02:18):
americans it's about taking having the government take over the commanding,
heights right, industries the means of. Production sounding a little, familiar,
yeah a little Uh Marxist, leninist a little, yeah maybe
they ought to just dropped the whole democratic adjective and
just go with. Socialists it is not it is not

(01:02:41):
something that we want for this. Country and SO i
IF i, were IF i were A democrat or left
leaning independent IN cd, one And i'm, Not i'm A
republican who doesn't live IN cd, ONE i would seriously
think about voting for Doctor Shimoon. Blau he's he's a

(01:03:01):
moderate left AND i like his, TEMPERAMENT i like the.
INTERVIEW i think he would be a reasonable. Guy and
if you think that somebody who's a far right or far,
left you, know big, mouth hothead who claims to be
fighting like hell for. You there's a good chance they're
not going to do anything In congress other than get

(01:03:24):
a retweetable sound white on something like you, know TikTok
that that's what you're looking. FOR i would recommend ciros
when we get back your comments on this very, subject and,
yeah we'll take it from. There this Is Krista. KAYFER
i am what AM i? DOING i am sitting in

(01:03:45):
For Anddy connell and you're listening to eight FIFTY. Koa
Doesn't trump have a portrait Of Andrew jackson in The oval?
Office and he? Does and what's? Interesting SO i just
Finished Meacham's, Lion American, lion which is about just a
brilliant biography Of Andrew. Jackson And Andrew jackson is a

(01:04:08):
very interesting character in some. Ways you get to the
book and you can't help but like, him even though
he has some serious blind, spots some serious moral blind.
Spots not in terms of his. Family he was very
good to his family and his, wife but in terms
of his he absolutely Loved america and in fact probably

(01:04:30):
Saved america from an early civil war because there was
A South carolina pushing for, nullification wanting to nullify things
passed By, congress threatening to succeed even seceede, even and
through his efforts he managed to stop that from. Happening
he was, Brilliant he was. Interesting he Loved, america on

(01:04:56):
the other, hand very much a blind spot when it
came to the rights and humanity of The African american
slaves and also of The Native. Americans in, fact it
was The trail Of tears which. Happened his successor is
the one that had actually, happened but it passed and
was pushed by, him The Indian Removal act while he

(01:05:19):
was still in. Office so a very interesting man man
that possibly saved The union on one. Hand on the other,
hand somebody who because of significant moral blind, spots was just,
flawed a flawed tenure in. Office HOW i would, SAY
i can understand Why trump has his portrait because he

(01:05:40):
was a populist. President by, POPULIST i mean the people loved.
Him there was almost A i wouldn't say a cult,
following but just a lot of ordinary. People they loved
the fact that he was not part of The american.
Aristocracy aristocracy with a small. A we had never had
dukes and counts and all that but we did have

(01:06:02):
people who were sort of the insiders that were highly
educated and quite. Elitist another interesting, Character John Quincy, adams
very moral but also kind of a dour. Elitist And
jackson was very much a man of the. People he
would see anyone any. Time he also was really. Interesting

(01:06:26):
he'd Saved New orleans when he was a, general he'd
been shot multiple, times and he was still like walking
around like he. Is he was a really interesting. President
so from the populist, ANGLE i can see Why trump
sees him as a kindred. SPIRIT i think beyond that,
POPULISM i would say That trump has done more to
Divide america in some ways Than united which IS i

(01:06:47):
would Say jackson was more of a. Uniter but that's
just my. Opinion and let's see this person, says do
you have any specific examples of important laws which would
be different if The, senate preserving the minority, opinion didn't
block The house The house as well of the. MAJORITY
i do have a great example of, that and in,

(01:07:09):
FACT i will get it's a little requires a slightly longer,
explanation SO i will do that when we get. Back
next hour is going to be. AWESOME i will answer
this really sharp question that somebody, asked AND i will
also tee up the middle of the hour our fabulous,

(01:07:31):
guest which will Be Craig. Furman he is the author
of this vast enterprise new history Of lewis And. Clark super.
Good if you Loved ambrose's biography Of lewis And, clark
you will love this just as. Much it has stuff
in it that you will have not read, before and
it's written in such a unique. Way well that let's

(01:07:52):
take a. Break this Is Christa. KAEFER i am sitting
in For Mandy kamnll and you are listening to eight FIFTY.

Speaker 1 (01:07:59):
Koa The Mandy Connell show is sponsored By belle And
Pollock accident and Injury.

Speaker 3 (01:08:05):
Lawyers, no It's.

Speaker 2 (01:08:07):
Mandy connell and Don ON kla ninety, One am.

Speaker 4 (01:08:19):
Kenn icy through, Three Andy, Connell keith Sad base.

Speaker 3 (01:08:28):
And welcome back to The Mandy Connell. Show this Is
christy kaeper sitting. In we've been talking a little bit
About congress, candidates politics AND uh and other. Stuff you've
had some great comments on the text line at five six,
six AND i KNOW i had an interesting conversation with
somebody that works For Representative Jeff. Crank there was a
poll THAT i. SAW i think it was The Colorado

(01:08:50):
sun that reported, it that said that his, Opponent Jeff
crank is the representative from The Colorado springs, area Generally republican,
area saying That Jessica, killen His democratic, opponent was within
one percentage point of him on a. Poll it was
a poll Said Jeff crank up forty five, percent she

(01:09:12):
was getting forty four. Percent AND i was curious about,
that SO i asked and found out that it was
not a true. Poll it was basically a push. Pole
here's how a push pool push poll. Works try to
say that twenty times. Fast but a push pole is
you call up and you, Say, hi this is a
nonpartisan pulling, organization And I'm i'm going to ask you

(01:09:34):
some questions About CANDIDATE a and CANDIDATE. B, So CANDIDATE
a is a truly awful. Person he supports, this this and.
This he didn't do, this this and, This and then
let me tell you About CANDIDATE. B she is. Fantastic
she's from the. Community she's done, this this and. This
she's never done, this this and. This, now knowing what

(01:09:54):
you know About CANDIDATE a and CANDIDATE, b who will
you you vote?

Speaker 4 (01:10:00):
For?

Speaker 3 (01:10:01):
Now if you're a person who knows you know who's
well as, politics it doesn't matter what they say about
which candidate you're, supporting you'll just give your. Answer but
if you're one of the pretty large percentage Of americans
that does not follow this stuff too, closely especially when
we're still several months out from an, election they will be, like,
WELL i, guess knowing that CANDIDATE a is a serial

(01:10:23):
killer and CANDIDATE b is Mother, Teresa i'm not going
to go with CANDIDATE. B and then they take that
result and then they go to the press with it and, say,
look our candidate is within one percentage point of overcoming the.
Incumbent so, yeah don't trust the. Poll and when it
comes to push polls and, MINUTE i, well a, MINUTE

(01:10:45):
i see an unrecognizable phone number coming. THROUGH i know
it's one of two. Things it, well it's unsolicited charity,
stuff it's a push, pole or it's THAT i hope
for your, sake you don't get these. Things it's The,
hi this Is, roger and we've just been reviewing your loan.
Application i've got some details to get back with. You

(01:11:07):
and you're, like and never filled out an effing. Thing,
DUDE i get about one of those calls a. Day
it's a different, voice a different name each, time and
it's it's very. Irritating, Anyway, hi moving on to an
interesting question that was posed before we went to the,

(01:11:29):
break and the segment here is going to take us
up just about five minutes from, now and then when
we get back from the break at about two, thirty
we will have our extra special, Guest Craig, furman the
author of This Fast, ENTERPRISE A New history Of lewis And.
Clark SO i want to answer this question that somebody said, that,

(01:11:51):
hey can you think of a moment when The senate
has kind of slowed? Down The? House The, house of,
course is made up of individual members that have, districts
and they're not the whole state, obviously unless it's Producting,
wyoming and then it is the whole. STATE i. THINK
i think that's true For North dakota as. Well it's different.

(01:12:15):
Districts those districts are often relatively. Homogenious so if you,
know there's a lot of kind of hard red or hard,
blue there's a few competitive. Districts we have exactly one
competitive district in the state Of. Colorado other states are heavily,
gerrymandered where it's almost impossible for the minority party to win. Anything,

(01:12:36):
Unfortunately colorado is very fair because of the system we
have in, place but the state. Itself when you're representing
the whole, state you're representing a lot of, interests a
lot of. People so The senate tends to have a
moderating influence on legislation that comes out of The. House
so let's take The Save. Act The Save act requires

(01:12:56):
a certain kind of VOTER id FOR uh for either
it's either for voting or for registering to. VOTE i
can't remember which, one and a lot of you know
if you're this this issue IS i think unnecessarily. Partisan
it seems to me that having AN id is important
prove who you are before you register or before you.

(01:13:19):
Vote it. Works here's when you, register they do check YOUR.
Id they do check you on the different roles to
make sure you're a, citizen to make sure that you
should get a. Ballot most states have things in process
to vet to vet people who register to vote and
are therefore to. Vote what The Save act would do

(01:13:39):
is require a certain kind OF id and people voted
one way or the other in The, house but in
The senate it's kind of ruled to a. Stop and here's.
Why you've got states Like. Alaska AND i would, say
raise your hand if you've been To, Alaska but what
would be the point of. THAT i can't see you So.

(01:14:01):
Alaska i've been To. Alaska i've been in the, interior
And i've been along the. Edge it is a massive.
State it Makes texas look Like Rhode. Island it's a huge.
State and in, fact there are communities that require an
airplane to get. To in, fact it's the first Time
i've ever seen. SOMEBODY i was in the middle of
the Country, Fairbank. Fairbanks you actually can see airplanes in people's.

(01:14:25):
DRIVEWAYS a kid you not Is there's a lot of
spread out. Territory there's a lot of. Delays particularly In,
november you had the huge snowstorms up in the. North
it delays. Things so it's just a very different. State
and so When Lisa murkowski looked at the, bill she,
said you, Know i've Got Alaskan natives and other people

(01:14:47):
in rural parts of my state THAT i HAVE, id
but they don't necessarily have THAT. Id i've got people who,
are you, know on military bases that may not have
their birth, certificate may not have what they. Need i've
got such a diverse population THAT i need to stick

(01:15:09):
with what our state. Has the processes our state has
to make sure that only citizens. Vote it works for our.
State our state is not the same as A Rhode
island or even A. Colorado we need to stick with
what we've. Got it's a good argument for states. Rights
it's also a good argument for her state in, particular

(01:15:29):
because she represents, Everyone, Democrats, republicans people who live in
a village of thirty people in the middle of, nowhere
people who live in the. City it. Has The senate
in general has a moderating influence on what comes out
of a typically harder edged house where people are representing

(01:15:53):
a district that is more. Homogenius not. Completely there's always minority,
interests but it is there's just much more diverse interests
for those who are in The. Senate in, fact originally
the state general assemblies chose The. Senators that there was

(01:16:13):
an amendment back in the nineteen twenties that changed that
during a populist, era and, FRANKLY i kind of like that.
MODEL i like the idea of people who know the,
state know its, interests picking people who will represent the
whole state all of its interests and not be particularly.

(01:16:33):
PARTISAN i think there's good reasons for either, system but
the idea that they should represent the whole state and,
EVERYONE i think is very. IMPORTANT i hope that answers your.
QUESTION i think it's it was a very interesting, subject
and in fact it's a subject that deserves an. Essay if
you like, ESSAYS i actually do write. THEM i write

(01:16:55):
them for my. Substack i've got a substack dot. Com
look up my Name Christa kae for both with ks
and you can subscribe. There AND i do write out
some more long form, stuff also make some good book,
recommendations and do some other stuff that doesn't quite work
for the. Radio, hey, everybody awesome. Comments when we get, back,

(01:17:17):
though we have a very very special. Guest That's Craig.
Furman This Vast, enterprise A New history Of lewis And.
Clark this Is Christa. Kaefer i'm sitting in For Mandy
connell and you're listening to eight FIFTY. Koa if you've
read this, book it's just, out so maybe, not but
it's Called The Vast, ENTERPRISE A New history Of lewis

(01:17:39):
And clark By Craig, furman and if you read, it
you've got a question for the. Author he'll be on
in the next, segment Which i'm excited. About in the,
meanwhile let's. SEE i appreciate all of Your i've had
so many nice. Comments at, five, six six and, Nine,
oh this person, says so why don't you have your own?
Show what the? Heck as an independent you speak to? Me, hey,

(01:18:00):
THANKS i appreciate. That i've thought about doing a. PODCAST
i did have my own show on a sister station BEFORE,
covid and Then i've subbed For mandy off and on
last couple of, years And i've thought about a. Podcast
and IT'S i think there is a hungering out there
for people who are really interested in these subjects but

(01:18:24):
aren't as. Partisan i'm just it's, it's you, know it's
it's just a different, flavor and some people like that,
flavor and some people are, like, no they want something
that's that's more. Partisan AND i get. It having grown
up by and been inspired By Rush, limbaugh who not, perfect,
definitely but always had me. LAUGHING i know people like different.

(01:18:47):
Hosts they like different, voices and it's definitely you might
sell my, mind possibly for the next. Year keep an
eye on My twitter at AT Christa. KAEFER i also
have a Public facebook. PAGE i know that's a little
old school if you're in a gen z by like
what Is? Facebook and THEN i also have a sub

(01:19:08):
stack WHERE i reprint my columns and post some essays
and other juicy bits for. Subscribers and and by, JUICY
i mean public policy. Juicy SO i think. Nerdy to be,
HONEST i, said keep you, know keep keep her out.
There IF i do end up launching some kind of a,

(01:19:28):
PODCAST i will definitely definitely let you KNOW i. AM
i do a lot of. READING i Think i'm probably
running neck and neck with longtime radio Host Peter, boyles
who probably still reads more THAN i. DO i read
about four to six nonfiction books a, month occasionally popping

(01:19:51):
over to the fiction side to enjoy a good murder.
Mystery AND i will say THAT i have very good
taste in nonfiction and a questionable taste in. FICTION i
love murder, mysteries and when it comes to, MOVIES i like.
It stupid people would be, like you should go see
this deep movie about a family's battle with. Cancer i'm,

(01:20:11):
LIKE i have already already experienced. That i'm gonna go
ahead and. PASS i like stuff that's, fun just yeah.
FUN i like things with. ZOMBIES i like stupid, stuff
BUT i also like really AND i like good fun
but not stupid movies Like Project Hail, mary which is my,

(01:20:33):
favorite probably my favorite movie from the last couple of.
YEARS i like the Movie sinners a lot from last,
year which has got like zombies and history, together WHICH
i think is a very nice. Combination it's not family,
friendly so if you're gonna watch, it make sure everyone
in your audience is over. Eighteen that's For. Sinners For

(01:20:57):
Project Hill mary, though the whole. Household but no matter
what the age, is everyone can watch that. Movie it is,
clean it is, fun it is, sweet and it is smart.
LOVE i love sci. FI i love just it was
just interesting AND i loved. It i'll give. US i
even cried a little, bit which is you, KNOW i

(01:21:19):
haven't done that in a long. Time so that's my.
Recommendation when we get, back we're going to take a quick.
Break this person Said Bullet, tray that is also a great.
MOVIE i Think i've seen that several, times and When
i'm in a bad, MOOD i love that. Movie. Nobody
Nobody too is pretty, good but the First. Nobody i've
seen it so many TIMES i could probably you, KNOW

(01:21:40):
i could do the lines live on the. Air let's
put it that. Way but we're hitting a. Break when
we get, back we will be talking with Author Craig
furman about this super cool, Book The Vast, ENTERPRISE A
New history Of lewis And. Clark so you're gonna want
to stay. Tuned this Is Krista. Kaefer you're listening To
The Mandy Connell show eight point FIFTY. Aoa this particular

(01:22:03):
book That i'm going to, RECOMMEND i recommend that you
read in person in book form because it's got, maps
it's got, pictures and it's got some superb just absolutely superb.
Writing i'm talking About This Vast, ENTERPRISE A New history
Of lewis And clark By Craig, furman AND i am
delighted to have him on the. Line welcome to The

(01:22:25):
Mandy Connell.

Speaker 5 (01:22:26):
Show how any thanks for having.

Speaker 3 (01:22:28):
Me this is a terrific, book AND i love it
Because i'm familiar with the. STORY i Read Ambrose's Undaunted
courage probably fifteen twenty years, ago and it was. Exceptional this, book,
though is. Different it's different than a lot of the
biographies That i've read in that it shows different, viewpoints
and as you move from the, story you sort of change.

(01:22:51):
Perspective it's PROBABLY i don't Think i've ever read a
biography or a history that takes this. Perspective tell us
a little bit more about how you approach the, subject.

Speaker 5 (01:23:06):
Sure, well, yeah it's when people think of this kind
of rotating points of. VIEW i think they think of
fiction like The game Of thrones, books for, instance do,
this where each chapter moves to a different person's point of.
View BUT i settled on that as a way to
Approach lewis And clark, because first of, all there's already
been a lot of really good books written about, it
and SO i wanted to do something. New but, SECOND
i think this is the most accurate way to see the.

(01:23:26):
Story this is, not you, know just like a modern
idea of being projected back into the. Past lewis And
clark knew they weren't going into an empty. Wilderness they
knew they were going to meet lots of people who
were powerful and who had their own interests and so
to capture what makes this so human and so, COMPLICATED
i think you kind of have to tell both sides
of the. Story and it was just fun for me
as a writer, too BECAUSE i felt LIKE i could
dig up more history for history. Lovers you, know you

(01:23:48):
know part of this, story but here's even more of the,
story your sides you maybe haven't. Seen and it doesn't
just make it more, accurate it makes it more.

Speaker 3 (01:23:54):
FUN i understand that took you five years to write.
THIS i assume you were playing around in the art
of a. Lot that's.

Speaker 5 (01:24:02):
Right and ACTUALLY i you, know WHEN i came up
with the story, STRUCTURE i, thought, well this will be something,
new but THEN i ended up finding new documents, anyway
which which surprised. ME i, thought With lewis And, clark
there's nothing new to. Find BUT i found some evidence
That clark went to, college WHICH i think is really
surprising to a lot Of lewis And clark's ficiado because
they see him as those kind Of kentucky frontiersman and he,
was you, know good with, people but he was also very,

(01:24:24):
educated just Like, lewis just Like jefferson and so finding
those kinds of new archival details helped me make even
individual people Like lewis And clark seem more three dimensional and.
Humans that's WHAT i always try to do in. Books you,
know history is most exciting when it's about human. Beings
so that's WHAT i always try to put in my,
stories and.

Speaker 3 (01:24:40):
It is it's the history of. US i just have
a ba in, history and it's probably the type of
book THAT i consume the most because it is the
story of. Us and that's, why in part WHY i
find this book so. DELIGHTFUL i also like your gentle,
telling and by THAT i mean you talk about the.

(01:25:01):
Complexities you let the readers make the judgments if they
want to make judgments about people or, groups but you
sort of hold off in making those judgments for the
most part. Yourself AND i like.

Speaker 5 (01:25:13):
That, WELL i appreciate you saying, that AND i just
that's that's always my default as a. HISTORIAN i think
a good example Is, york who was a black man
who was enslaved By, clark and so he was there
for all eight thousand, miles right alongside with the, captain
and SO i think it's important to tell his story
and be honest about you, know the Way clark sometimes treated.
Him BUT i also wanted to show That york was

(01:25:33):
an amazing explorer who did things on his, own and
that his In clark's relationship was very. Complex so you,
know when people ask, ME i, SAY i didn't write
a book about. SLAVERY i wrote a book About. York
and so that that's kind of that, hopefully that more gentle,
approach where let's look at what life looks like in
eighteen oh, four and of course readers are going to
have modern, perspectives but you, KNOW i leave that to.
READERS i just want to, say what did the world

(01:25:54):
look like To, jefferson or to sac And duia or To,
york and then readers can kind of bring their interpretation to.

Speaker 3 (01:25:59):
That just read a book About James garfield By Candace
millard and then another book Called Everything Is, tuberculosis written
by a fiction writer turned nonfiction, writer and in both
cases the book has that gentle, touch that the telling

(01:26:19):
without to kind of dour presence that's making judgments for the,
reader AND i just really appreciate.

Speaker 5 (01:26:28):
It, Yeah AND i MEAN i think as a writer
it was kind of nice every day THAT i could say,
Well i'm not going to think about the. Headline i'm
going to think about eighteen oh. Four not that eighteen
oh four was. Perfect they had plenty of partisan you,
know fighting and and different issues, too but as to
tear out my problems and your, problems that are the past.
Problems SO, i you, know as a, writer it was

(01:26:49):
nice to kind of escape that AND i hope THAT
i could create that experience for readers, too because it
is the. Past doesn't influence the, presence of course it.
Does it is the story of, us like you, said
but it's also the story of specific time and, moment
and SO i always tried to keep you, know to
be honest and accurate about what people understood and knew
at that.

Speaker 3 (01:27:06):
MOMENT i, Love, YEAH i felt Like i'm there when
AS i read. It and one of the things THAT
i think is interesting that does have some modern parallels
is just how nasty and partisan they were in D.
C I've i've read in the middle of a biography
Of madison and it just kind of surprises me how

(01:27:27):
sort of nakedly Hostile jefferson And adams, were Or Patrick
henry and Of, jefferson and what you describe is What
jefferson had to do behind the scenes with getting approval
and the funding and the nasty attacks that he received

(01:27:49):
to do what seems in retrospect an absolutely brilliant.

Speaker 5 (01:27:54):
Move, yeah and this is something that's totally new in my.
Book most books Ab lewis and clarksville'll just be one.
Sense you, Know jefferson got the funding approved and then
they move, On but that you, know behind that one
sentence is a whole political, odyssey because you, know Today
lewis and clark seems so All, american, right like you,
said it's, brilliant and there are a version of the
astronauts that makes sense that we would want to send

(01:28:14):
that mission. West but just like, today in the, past you,
know these issues were part of. Them so as soon
As jefferson SAID i wanted, this the people on the
other side of the, aisle who were The, federalists said,
well we don't want. This and they didn't even really
need a reason not to want. It the fact That
jefferson wanted it was reason enough for them not to want,
it and so that kind of you, know divide created
lots of problems For. Jefferson it was also it's easy

(01:28:35):
to forget there was a very stressful time back. Then
It's france was Circling, britain with circling Even Russia. Spain
so he got to mention all the native nations who
have a lot of power in the middle of the.
Country so this is kind of like a geopolitical disaster
that is weighing down On jefferson and On. America but
he wants to get this expedition. Through he knows he's
running out of. Time he was in a tight, corner

(01:28:56):
but he kind of proved how masterful he was as
a politician to get this build barely Through.

Speaker 3 (01:29:01):
Congress i'm glad he. DID i think we all are
in retrospect AND i As i'm halfway, Through i'm not
finished to the, book the end of, it BUT i
really Love Meriwether lewis and this sort of sensitive genius
who struggles with depression and loves. Animals AND i, mean,

(01:29:22):
Now i'm that's. ME i LOVE i love, ANIMALS i love,
science AND i can just see him out, there AND
i also know that he struggled with these things and
it just comes through in these these. Vignettes As you're,
right And i'm touched by.

Speaker 5 (01:29:40):
That, WELL i appreciate you saying THAT i Love lewis.
Too there ends up being ten people who kind of
get point of view chapters in the, book and, HONESTLY
i love all of. Them they're they're all fascinating and complicated.
People but you, know With, lewis that's another example of
sort of trying to stay. Focused in the. PAST i
didn't Say lewis had bipolar. DISORDER i didn't try to
be too explicit ABOUT i was, like, well how Did

(01:30:00):
louis understand his own? World and if you look at his,
journals and that's one thing that's so special about the,
expedition as they left behind more than a million, words
so there's so much documentation to work On lewis in his,
journals you, know he could describe animals so, well but
he would also describe his own thoughts and feelings really carefully.
Too so he was a scientist even when it came
to kind of studying his own mind and watching him process.

(01:30:22):
That try to stand up to. That sometimes he would,
succeed sometimes he would. Fail you, know that's what it
feels like to me to be a human being, Too
and so to See lewis struggle with that while he's
on this incredible. Adventure it was so much fun to
write about.

Speaker 3 (01:30:33):
That oh, yes and you really. Captured do you have
a favorite? Character?

Speaker 5 (01:30:39):
OOH i mean depends on the. Day but one PERSON
i was really drawn to is a guy Named John.
Ordway he's kind of a working class. Soldier as much
AS i Admire lewis And, clark they were kind of
elites for their time, period so they were doing science
or map they were. Busy but the person who was
actually you, know getting in the cold, water towing the,
boats dealing with the grizzly bears a lot of. Time
those are the regular. SOLDIERS i tried to Make John

(01:31:01):
ordway sort of pop out as a person and a
character as much As lewis And, clark because his experience
of the expedition was much different than the. Captain and
here's an example Of. Ordway ordway was when we talked
about the. Journals ordway was the only one to take
a journal entry every single day because he was just
such a hard. Worker and while they were out on the,
river somebody shot a bald, eagle AND i Think ordway

(01:31:21):
had the Most american. Reaction he walked over to the
Bald eagle tucked out the feathers because he needed those
quills to keep. Writing it's just always what's the job
in front of, me how DO i do?

Speaker 3 (01:31:29):
It and, That, yeah he got what was, needed AND
i love those chapters about. HIM i also Love Black, buffalo,
SURE i, think AND i love the way that that
you know the natives that they encounter and what they're
trying to you, know what he's trying to, do leading

(01:31:50):
his group through a very difficult, time a tragic, time
but to do so with with with wisdom and, prudence
and then having other leaders push against, that wanting something more.
Radical you handle it with a lot of, sensitivity AND

(01:32:10):
i think it's excellent that readers get to see that. Perspective,
well thank.

Speaker 5 (01:32:15):
You AND i think this is where the rotating points
of view really helps me because you, KNOW i can
say In lewis's, Chapters lewis was a patriot who loved his,
country which is absolutely. True but In Black buffalo's CHAPTERS
i can point out and he was A lakota, leader
he was a patriot who loved his country. TOO i,
mean both men were excellent leaders who were, prudent like you,
said who had really smart strategies and. Goals and what's

(01:32:36):
so fascinating is that on the banks of The Missouri
river they, clash they come. Together but What Black buffalo
is able to realize, is you, KNOW i can use these,
outsiders These americans helped me win this internal. Debate he
wasn't just thinking About lakota versus The. American he was
thinking about divides within The lakota and how he needed
to navigate those and sort of push his people in
the direction he thought was, right and he. Succeeded we

(01:32:58):
know From Lakota Winter county and also from other new
documents That lewis And clark and The lakota were actually
able to make a really important alliance that for the
next ten to fifteen. Years it was one of the
best foreign policy outcomes created by the.

Speaker 3 (01:33:10):
Expedition so kind of a true life children to reference
that network of. Fiction, SURE i absolutely did you have
a favorite.

Speaker 5 (01:33:19):
Moment my favorite moments were always when they would all encounter,
something but then all have slightly different. Reactions those, journals you,
know you didn't just Have lewis And clark keeping. Journals
you Had ordway and some of the other. Soldiers but
then also sometimes in the, journals there would be people
would have different. Responses so you, know what Did Zaka

(01:33:41):
juwia think about the? Ocean we actually know that Because
lewis And clark wrote her reaction. Down and so whether
it's the ocean or the Great falls of The missouri
or seeing the rocky mountains for the first, time to
have five or six different people react to the same
thing in different, ways that's what's so great about the.
EXPEDITION i think it's such a big story that you
can find so many different in, it and even in

(01:34:01):
real time in eighteen o four eighteen oh, five they're
all responding to this stuff in such different in the human.

Speaker 3 (01:34:07):
Ways was there a part that was really hard to?

Speaker 4 (01:34:10):
WRITE i think the way back was hard first because
it was hard for them the winter that they spent
on The pacific coast and near The pacific, coast there
was a lot of, rain they didn't have enough.

Speaker 5 (01:34:24):
Food the food they did have would, spoil and they
didn't have a lot of good left. Trade and then
when they're going, back you, know kind of minor catastrophe
follows minor. Catastrophe they're in a real. Hurry so even
though you would kind of think that's the. Victory. Laugh
that's when things are the. Best that's actually when things
were the, HARDEST i. Think but one thing THAT i
did in the book, is you, know when they're on
The pacific, coast that's another place WHERE i moved the

(01:34:46):
point of. View so it's not Black buffalo out, there
it's a different leader Named Kobo wat who was the
leader of the class of and so you could kind
of show he's a brilliant. TRADER i would say he
could be On shark not as one of the people,
pitching you, know, ideas he could have been one of
the sharks making the. Investments he was such a smart busines.
Guy they knew how, to you, know deal with the
traders coming off the ocean versus other native. Nations and
so watching him deal and interact With louis and park

(01:35:07):
that was the way to sort of park the story
up a little bit in what was from The american,
perspective a really hard.

Speaker 3 (01:35:12):
WINTER i, YEAH i can't even. IMAGINE i don't think
any anybody now could imagine what it's like to face
eating spoiled food in the dismal landing, rain and it would, be,
uh it'd be hard to OBVIOUSLY i had to go
through but hard to write as. Well is what's your next?
BOOK i don't know.

Speaker 5 (01:35:33):
YET i love writing about from so many different perspectives
with this, one BUT i always with each, BOOK i
try to give myself a new. Challenge so WHATEVER i
write about, NEXT i think it needs to be about one.
Person Maybe i'll write about a soldier or something like,
that but you, know something, historical something from this rough time.
Period But i'd like to spend more time with one.
Person ALTHOUGH i enjoyed the kind of kaleidoscope effect of this,
book it's always fun to try something.

Speaker 3 (01:35:54):
NEW i love the kaleidoscope effect for, sure And i'm
looking For you've got several other books That i'm looking
forward to, reading because ONCE i find an AUTHOR i,
LIKE i burned through everything they've ever. Written well that's.

Speaker 5 (01:36:07):
All authors love to hear, That SO i really appreciate.
That AND i hope that other books are you having
much fun with them as you did with this.

Speaker 3 (01:36:12):
ONE i have no DOUBT i. WILL i absolutely love,
history and LIKE i, mentioned it's for, me it's it's
the history of. Us it's kind of EVERY i. LOVE
i love reading about science as. Well science and. History for,
me it's AND i also like philosophy, too but it's
it's a filling in of. Gaps it's a deepening of.
Understanding is it's like a paint by numbers picture in

(01:36:34):
which every BOOK i, read every ARTICLE i, read is
filling in another square with the hope that at some
POINT i will see the. Whole that's what reading history
is like for. Me what is what is writing history?

Speaker 5 (01:36:50):
LIKE i think it's THE i think it's the exact
same experience that you don't know exactly where you're gona end.
UP i, mean we obviously know where what happens at
the end of The lewis And clark, expedition SO i
knew the. Ending but you, know ONCE i went back
to the archives and spent all that time rereading those
million words and finding new, THINGS i was really just
trying to, say, well what did the paint by number
look like back? Then you, know before or there was

(01:37:12):
anything other than Lying and so there are fascinating. Connections for,
me they don't really emerge until AFTER i finished the.
Book it's. Strange i'll write a book and then When i'm,
Done i'm, like, oh, well what does the book? Mean
because When i'm writing the, Book i'm very focused on
telling good stories and being accurate and following the truth
of the. Past but you, know a fun thing that
happened with this is WHEN i finished this book and
got it ready to start promoting, it, Well artemists two,

(01:37:34):
happens and so we're sending somebody to the. Moon AND
i think there are real parallels there in terms Of american,
ambition in terms Of, america you, know trying to do something,
big but also in terms of you, know it requiring an.
Ensemble Like artemists two wasn't just about those four. Astronauts
it was not the. Engineers it was about the. Politicians
it was about the janitors keeping mission control. Clean everybody came,
together and The lewis And clark expedition was the exact same.

(01:37:56):
Way lewis And clark would have told you, that yes
they were the, leaders but you, know it was this vast.
Enterprise that's a quote From clark's. Letters they knew this
was a huge ensemble thing where a lot of people
were going to have to give their best. Together and
SO i think that's a Very american, approach and it's
so interesting to see that approach show up across.

Speaker 3 (01:38:14):
Centuries we've been talking With Craig. Furman he's the author
Of The Vast, enterprise a new history Of lewis And,
clark WHICH i highly highly recommend WHEN i describe WHY
i like, history kind of filling in the. Squares every
now and, again THOUGH i will something will touch me very.
PERSONALLY i remember reading about an explorer who was In

(01:38:38):
South america who he lost his fellow. Explorers all of
the dogs had. Died he alone. Remained he had no food.
Left he's going across the ice with his pack of
supplies on a dog. Sled he falls into a, crevice
crawls back to the. Top the ice, breaks he falls

(01:38:59):
down again and he takes his knife. Out he's going
to cut the. Rope he decides to give it one last,
chance and he climbs again to the top and he
makes it out. Alive and every TIME i feel LIKE
i don't want to, ENDURE i think of. Him is
there a person in The Vast enterprise that really touched

(01:39:21):
you personally to where you THINK i can get through
this because this person got through that.

Speaker 5 (01:39:28):
WELL i Think lewis is probably the best, example and
it's so cool to hear you tell that, story because
it immediately made me think of something that happened to
them on the way, back which Was lewis and some
of the men were kind of on a small side
mission and it was, rainy and so the banks on
the side of the river were very steep and, muddy
and so one of the soldiers slipped and started falling,
down And louis could hear him. Screaming and because of these,

(01:39:48):
journals we have the, dialogue we're not reconstructing That louis
wrote down what he, said and so the soldier just screamed,
out very, simply BUT i find it so. Moving he just, Says, God, God,
captain what DO i? Do it is panicking, himself and
he says that in the, journal you, know Like i'm
scared that this guy's going to. DIE i see how
far he can. Fall But, lewis as a, leader also
knows that he needs to project that, calm which honestly

(01:40:10):
reminds me of being a. DAD i got little, kids
and there are times When i'm, scared BUT i have
to be as calm and you, know sort of be
reliable so they can learn how to be calm themselves
and So louis just tells the, guy you, know hold
your rifle in one, hand pull out your, knife and
dig yourself a little. Foothold once you have that, foothold
then you can start, crawling and just sort of walks
him through step by, step and the man, survives he

(01:40:30):
makes it to. Safety but you, know it's such an
amazing image and visual to think, about but also to
think About louis's own mind and how he's balancing his
own fears and they're on the way. HOME i can't
lose a man. NOW i find it incredibly moving and,
human and the expedition is for so many moments like.

Speaker 3 (01:40:47):
That that is so. True but we got one minute left,
Exactly SO i want to take just a second or.
Two why should folks read history in? General and why
should they read this?

Speaker 5 (01:40:56):
Book, WELL i think the answer to both is. Simple
just if you want to meet other. PEOPLE i think
human beings are the most interesting thing we can write
or learn. About and when you read about people from the,
PAST i think they give you a different perspective on
yourself because in some ways they're very similar to. It
LIKE i just, said When lewis is trying to be
an example for a, man it reminds me of being a.

(01:41:16):
Dad but in other ways they're radically different than, us
that they had different world views or different. Ideas so
if you read a good history, book what you're going
to do it's spend some time with fascinating human beings
who in some ways are like, you in some ways
are different than. You and that tension between the similarity
and the. DISSIMILARITY i think that's so. Interesting it's the
TOPIC i never get tired, of AND i think that's
what draws readers to stories about our.

Speaker 3 (01:41:37):
PAST i could have said it. Better i've been talking
With Craig. Furman he is the author of This Vast,
enterprise a new history Of lewis And. Clark i'm halfway through.
IT i could not recommend it. MORE i can't wait
to read your other books and have you back on.
Sometime thanks so much for taking time. Today sounds.

Speaker 5 (01:41:55):
Great it's been my. Pleasure all, right.

Speaker 3 (01:41:58):
That was, Fantastic thank, You. Craig i'm just so GLAD
i got to have him, on And i'm just so
GLAD i got to be. On So Bandy conna will
be back as as soon as. Possible in the, Meanwhile
grant's got it covered behind the. Glass the producer done
a great job, today and thanks everybody for. LISTENING i
know when you tune in and it's not the host

(01:42:19):
that you, love it's always, like, man can't believe where is?
She why is the sub? Here so thanks for sticking
with the sub and if you like what you hear,
here then keep an eye on. Me i'm At, twitter
at At Krista kaefer got a substack and also a
column at The Denver. Post i'm not sure When i'm
going to be On Colorado Inside out, again but stay

(01:42:41):
tuned you'll know WHAT i. Know with, that have a great.
Day you've been listening to The Mandy Connell show on
The fabulous eight FIFTY koa