November 29, 2025 • 41 mins
It’s hot and everyone’s slightly unhinged, so what better time to kick off the Mamamia Out Loud Summer Book Club than with the only novel bold enough to ask: What if you left your family for a road trip and reinvented yourself... in a motel off the freeway?
In the first of our Summer Book Club episodes, Em, Jessie and Holly dive into Miranda July’s All Fours, a book that is part midlife crisis, part erotic fever dream and part existential stand-up comedy routine.
Em, Jessie and Holly discuss female desire, boredom, creativity and how it’s somehow both deeply relatable and utterly chaotic to want to start afresh on a whim.
If you’ve ever:
-
Sat in your car for an five extra minutes just to avoid your family
-
Fantasised about a new life in a different country
- Or simply wondered, 'What if?'
Then yes, this episode of Summer Book Club is for you.
Summer Book Club Episode 2 drops December 28 when we'll be discussing the Great Big Beautiful Life by Emily Henry.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Summer book Club. Today, we are talking about
Miranda Juli's novel All Fours. I'm Jesse Stevens, I'm m Vernum.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
And I am Holly Wainwright and we are the hosts
of Mamma Mia out Loud. This is the Veggie Might
of books. In some ways. It was an enormous ensation
when it came out. It was described by the New
York Times as the world's first great perimenopausal novel. It
has been nominated for many awards. It's been a best seller,
(00:44):
it has sold its socks off, it has been optioned
as you would imagine. But I say it's the Veggie
Might of books because people either love this book or
it really annoyed them.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So I think we should put our cards on the table.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
First off, about where we sat on that, because the
whole point of a book club, let's just be clear,
is not that everybody had I love that book. Whatever
we're discussing it, we're tossing it around. We're thrown around
its ideas. We assume you've all read it. Where did
we sit?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I loved it. I did not know it was this
divisive until I googled it and looked at its Goodreads ratings,
and I think that proper reviews across like oh No,
proper reviews very critically acclaimed, but the average person. I
(01:37):
was saying that there's been so many book clubs about this,
and a lot of people have said I could not
finish it.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I could not get through it.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I personally loved it. I thought it asked really interesting questions.
I could have spent even longer in Miranda July's head,
and I think that's where I was. I really enjoyed
spending time with her thoughts. I think it's a classic,
it will turn into a classic, and it made me
(02:06):
think entirely differently about a life stage that, despite all
the books written since the beginning of time, has barely
been touched. So I thought it was brave and shameless
in that way. How about you, Am, What did you think?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I did not like this book?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
This is great.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
However, I could not put it down.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
So I don't really understand the reviews of people who
didn't like it and couldn't finish it because I literally
couldn't put it down. I think her writing, Randa Julyized
writing is so captivating and brilliant, and it like forces
you to stay there, like there's no way. I was
reading it on the toilet, like I physically couldn't put
this book down. I think her writing is just so
old you would approve of that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
I feel like Miranda July, I would be a big
fan of you reading it on the toilet.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
God, I thought it was just such honest storytelling. However,
the overarching scenes that happen in the book, I was
a bit like like, oh no, I can't get behind this.
And there were times halfway through the book I started
recommending it to older people, including my mom. Oh no,
(03:17):
And then when I got to the end, I was like,
I don't think you'll like this.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Well, one of the reasons it's a perfect book club
book for our particular Momame Out Loud book club is
because Emily Vernon is in her twenties ye, and Jesse
Stevens is in her thirties, and I'm in my early fifties,
so we all come at this book from a very
different place.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Is this what Perry is like for you, Holly?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, Like I didn't move out of my home and
god live in a motel and strike up an affair
with a younger man, if that's what you've mean. Yeah,
but I'm also on team I love this book like
I love this book.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And I could not put it down. I was obsessed.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
I was listening to it and reading it, which is
what I do when I'm really obsessed with the book
is I'll listen and read at the same time, Like
in the car, I'm listening, and when I get home
and I read, and then I get in the car
and I listen, and I did. That would demon COPD too,
like when I'm really I just need to be in
that world echo all the things that Jesse says about
I just think it's so brave, era defining, Like it's
(04:16):
a proper work of art, you know.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, there are many many books in the world. I
write books.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
There are lots of different reasons why we write books,
but there are some books that are a proper work
of art, and this is one of those books. Now,
not all art is for everybody, do you know what
I mean? This was definitely for me. But I know
exactly why it's so divisive. It is divisive because the
topics that this book touches on are exactly the topics
(04:42):
that are the third rails, particularly in women's lives.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So we are.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Dealing with aging, which you know nobody likes, sexuality obviously, motherhood,
non monogamy, non traditional marriage. We are dealing with birth trauma.
We are dealing with cheating. We are dealing with tampons,
all kinds of kinky sex, and the very divisive issue
of interior decorating. So I think really like you couldn't
(05:06):
have a more provocationative book.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yes, And I think that I would like to set
up the premise a little bit in terms of an analogy.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Before you do that, Jesse, I'm asking the book group
of questions, do you think we need to talk a
little bit about what it's about her?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Are we assuming that all our listeners.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Now, I reckon, can you give us just like a quick,
quick rundown, a very toplight because people might have read
it a little while ago.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, a little plot summary and also a little top
line about Miranda July.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
She was new to me.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
I'm going to say, like, cool people, properly cool people
have been across Miranda July for a long time. So
she is an artist. She is now in her mid forties.
She's made movies, she's made movies, she's written other books,
and she's an avant garde visual artist. She's not a
kind of like rom com queen or something. You know,
she's a very specific type of artist. But people who
(05:54):
are cool and who are across her were hanging out
for this book, and then people like me who didn't
really know about her but read this book and went, wow,
she sounds interesting and then started to explore her.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
You're like wow.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So there's a lot of crossover betwre in the plot
and her real life, so very top line. The plot
follows an unnamed female narrator who is forty five semi
famous artist herself, and she basically comes across a creative
and personal crisis in her early midlife. Right while she's
questioning her marriage and everything, she comes into twenty thousand
(06:25):
dollars from a payment she wasn't necessarily expecting, and she
decides that she's going to go to a sort of
writing event in New York City and she's going to
drive across the country to get there because she's going
to have an adventure and self discovery and whatever. But
she never gets further than half an hour from her home,
where she stops at a motel, bails herself up there,
(06:47):
spends all the money on doing it up, and then
embarks on an improbable and inappropriate, obsessive sort of affair.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
With a younger man. That is kind of the arc.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
There is so much more to that because then she
returns home and she has to grapple with all.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Of those things.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
It is also the genre is auto fiction, and autofiction
is when there are elements of this that are autobiographical, certainly,
and July admits that, but it's literary. It's also imagined,
and she actually doesn't like the term auto fiction.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Lots of people are bringing that to her.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
She says, it is very close to the bone and
she wanted to fully embody that character by making her
very close to her But it is fiction because.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
I feel like when you say auto fiction, it just
brings in a whole lot of like people just want
to know what's fact and what's not.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Well, people do, though, want to know that.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
And the fact that she has one child who I
believe is non binary, and explores marriage in a way
that seems to parallel her real life even the career,
like there are definitely parallels, and the fact that she
kept the protagonist unnamed. It's like she was just okay
for us to project that it was her. But the premise,
(07:52):
I think can be also summarized in this analogy. So
early on her husband, Harris, you know, their relationship is complicated,
but he's certainly not a villain. He's not a bad man.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
And he's a film director. He's her real life husband.
Is so another ARTI another art he kind of DoD I.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Bet Shuman's being super sexy.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I think he seemed quite sexy and nice and
good dad and all that kind of stuff. Now he
is sitting at I think it's like a dinner party scenario.
And he has a theory that there are two types
of people. There are parkers and there are drivers. And
he says that drivers don't need applause for every single
little thing. They get joy from the boring stuff, from
(08:30):
patting a dog, hanging out with their kid. That is
enough for them. That is why they're primed for a
cross country drive. They're happy to do the long drives. Parkers,
on the other hand, need a discrete task that seems impossible.
They thrive at moments of crisis. They like things that
are difficult. For example, they like when people say applaud
(08:51):
them because they were able to get their car into
a really tight spot, and the rest of the time,
and this is what Harris says, they're bored and fundamentally
kind of disappointed. Now are you at parker or a driver?
Speaker 4 (09:07):
When I read this analogy in the book, I didn't understand,
And now you've made me understand.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I must say I still am getting my head around it.
But a lot of people have struggled with the analogy
and other people its just here.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, I think I'm a parker.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
I think not a lot of things bring me joy
if it's not like something that I know I've worked really,
really hard towards and I deserve that joy. When he
was describing drivers, they just seem like happy all the time.
And I don't hint, yeah, yeah, and I don't think
that's me.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
How about you, Holly, I don't know, Like I think
I'm a driver, but I have a suspicion I might
be more of a park I mean, I'm I went
on the record, I'm terrible at both, literally, like I
one of my stories I always tell you, Jesse, is
that I'm very good at parking. Very My mother has
ever given me a compliment about was the time that
(10:00):
I did a parallel park and she said, of all
the things you can do that that's really impressive.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I think that's illustrative of who you are.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Maybe you're a parker with a driver rising.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I feel as though I was a parker and I've
become a driver. Even though Harris in this says you
can't go from one to the other, you can't want
to be another. A lot of drivers want to be
parkers because they think that they're more spontaneous and more fun.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And creative and interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, but I must say that I feel as though
I'm leaning more into the boring long drive rather than
I do a lot of boring long driving in my life. Obviously,
our artist, our protagonist too is unnamed, is a parker
the whole point of this, right, she is, And this
is one of the criticisms that a lot of people
have for this book. There is no question she is neurotic,
(10:48):
She is hard work, she is difficult, like there are
all of those things are one hundred percent probably depressed.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I want to be a driver now.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
No, no, But if that gets to the whole crux
of this is being like a likable, happy, gir lucky person.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
The only kind of protagonist you want.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
No, you don't want a protagonist that do you write like,
that's not interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Want a protagonist who I like.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I'm the same.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
I noticed that with a lot of the books I'm reading,
I am more attached to that story. Like, for example,
I didn't like this book, but I know this is
one of the books that I will think about all
the time. And I think all of them have in
common is that I don't actually like the main character
in the book we talked about. I think Margo's got
money troubles. Yes, like, she's not a likable person, and
(11:35):
I think about that book all the time.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And she Characters are meant to do things that make
you yell at them, go why are you doing that?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Stop it?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Stop it, stop it. But there's a part of you
that also understands if a good writer can make you
understand the decisions even if you wouldn't do it. And
the reason that this character embarks on the drive from
LA to New York is because she's going, I'm a driver,
I can be a driver. And the point, of course
is that she absolutely isn't.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
I get really frustrated with the likability question, and as
a writer, you get asked it all the time. And
the thing is is that we hang this on female
characters way more than any other. And if she is
doing anything that hints of not being a perfect mother
or wife, she will draw a shitload of criticism. There
is no exception to that, right, So a lot of
(12:28):
people who are upset about this book, they'll be like,
what a terrible thing to do. She abandoned her child,
you know, she putting her needs first over and over.
I just think this is fiction, Like, this is a
book you're supposed to do. It doesn't mean you have
to do it if you like her. It doesn't mean
that you two have to leave your marriage and drive
across the country and have inappropriate affairs.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
All kinds of people. Just relax into it, guys, Like
you can't.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
And I think that's the beauty of this book, Like
it's written so so well that there's no part of
me that can relax when I'm reading it.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Now.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Relaxes the wrong term, but what I guess what I
mean is relax with the judgment. Like, just enjoy watching
this weird person, this strange, unusual person doing really strange
unusual things without it constantly reflecting back at you like,
well I wouldn't do that, Well, I wouldn't do that.
A lot of criticism authors get is about that.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
But isn't that the best part of fiction because it's
the one time we're allowed to judge because it's not
a real person.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
But it's not about judging, like it's about trying to understand.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It's like the book is great, Like who cares whether
or not you would do that?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't understand
the impulse.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I like eating books about unusual things or really recognizable people,
but nearly everyone I know and like in my life
is a bit annoying to and does make selfish choices too,
and is not perfect in any way. And sometimes you
know message, I.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Spent most of this book yelling go home, home, idn't
want to go That was the tension, right, that was
the joy? Is what are you doing? How are you
spending your time?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I love it?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Why are you redecorating a motel that isn't even yours?
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Like?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Why are you spending all your money there? So? Why
isn't the affair on? Why aren't you just having sex?
Like I just couldn't.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's so wild.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
And you know, actually about the Parker driver thing, I
think I must be a driver because one thing I
found very difficult to grapple with, and I always do
in movies and books that do this way, they stick
people in a place really early. Like I wanted momentum.
I wanted her to leave. I wanted her to the
Cot trip, she said. And the thing is is she
(14:37):
also thought she was going to start the trip. It's like,
this is the beauty of this weird character, right, is
that she says, I'm just going to stay in this
hotel for a day, you know, And then she's like,
I'm picking out curtains and then making it. And then
she's like, but it'll just be a couple of days
and then I'll go again. But then she's finding herself
doing all these weird things. We have to talk about, Davy.
(14:57):
We do, we do our character, our nameless character is
getting her car washed, I think, right, she said, the
servo in Australian parlance, yea, and a young attractive man
washes her windscreen. They make brief eye contacts.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Except I think she's looking and he can't.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
She thinks he's looking at his own reflections.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
She thinks that he can't see her. And there is
a twist in the book. I mean, everyone's read the books.
He gets this like quite far in when you find
out he knew exactly who she was and he recognized
her and it wasn't a chance encounter, but she thinks
that it is and she messes with that in her
mind and stuff. What did we think about Davy? Because
as much as we talk about yelling at the main character,
(15:38):
aren't we also yelling at Davy? Because Davy is married Jamie,
a young married man who meets a woman of influence
who he thinks can help his career basically at a
servo and then tortures her. Not literally, he doesn't torture her,
but like he knows she really wants to have sex
with him. He knows she is so obsessed with him.
(15:59):
The number one word that's used for this book is horny.
And there's no question her character is so horny all
the time, and he just keeps going, just give her
just enough for a long time. I mean, what do
we think about Davy?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I loved the blurring that July draws between and this
isn't just Davy This is every sexual love interest between
arousal and disgust, because you are horrified and embarrassed by
him and you cringe while at the same time being like,
there's something weirdly enticing. Don't get me started on the dancing,
(16:33):
because I had to imagine I went to this weird
Magic Mike Live event and there was this guy. Some
of them were hot because they were good at dancing,
so I kept imagining he was like Magic Mike, which
I don't know what he was meant to be doing.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
But that was part of the genius of the Weird World, right,
is that she writes that scene where she's so obsessed
with this guy and she finally gets him in the
motel room and he says, I want to dance for
you and.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The collective I would die.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
I would die, the collective, all of us, and our
artist's character is all like, oh, well, that's it, Like Mike,
there's alternative female boner is about you too, Yeah, that's over.
And so it starts and it is mortifying, but by
the end it's amazing, transcendent, and she's even more into
it than before. And that scene is extraordinary because you
(17:21):
feel every bit of it, like Oh.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
No, stop come in my eyes. I could just keep
them laughing. Oh, hold on, what.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
What did you think of Davy? M?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
The minute we were introduced to Davy, I was like,
this boy is trouble. He's just he is a manipulator.
He is mean, and he just likes to have fun
with older women's emotions. Like that's literally what he is.
He firstly didn't have to wash your wind screen. He
did that on his own accord. So he like saw.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Her, he went, that's that famous lady bait went back.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
To her hotel room, said stuff like I can't say
I love you, I'll help you with your tampon, we
need to get and not even like I want to
dance with you, but also like I want you to
watch me dance, and then he just started dancing.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Weren't they using each other though in the same way? Like,
wasn't it?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
But what was she getting out of it all? Everything?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
Oh, I don't think she got anything for her except
lifting some weights.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I think Oh he was some fantasy escapism. You're not
my domestic obligations, Like it was never about Davy, like
it could have been interchange days any other man.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
But that's what the issue is, and then she landed
on like him like she could have.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Had the subject to all this, right, is the perimenopausal bit. Yeah,
so she's come across a graph that basically tells her
desire is about to die, that gra's scared. The perspective
from an old lady at the table, You are a
sexual person, whatever degree you always have. And it's clear
that this character has always been a pretty sexual person.
She's queer, she's had lots of different kinds of relationships.
(18:59):
Her and her husband have a particular kind of sexual relationship.
The book opens with her getting a letter through her
mailbox saying a man was taking a picture of the house.
So she just starts masturbating that idea. She's like, yeah, awesome.
Many of us would be like.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Oh, I call the cops.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I think she masturbates ten times.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
She does, So you're that and then all these things
are happening to your body that are changing that thing,
like making desire really unattainable for you, making the kind
of sex that you can have really difficult for you.
Changing that if you're a person as she who's always
been attractive and desired, like suddenly you're not because you're
(19:37):
not the young thing anymore, Like it really messes with
your head. So she's chasing being able to hold onto
desire for the second half of her life, right, And
that's why it's flying in all these misplaced places, right,
so she I think that's part of what makes all
this so urgent. And I can't remember the last time
I read, well, maybe ever reading account of desire an
(20:00):
unrequited desire, and obsession and sexual obsession that are quite
so visceral and.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
And the need to feel desired. And that's what the
Davy thing was about. And to me, I do you
think she had that need fulfilled? Well, by the end
of the book, she fulfills it in other ways, right.
And some people thought the ending and that sort of
denument was a bit too pat but I felt like
Davy was kind of fixated on her and she quite
liked that. The only thing I can compare it to
(20:30):
is a book about an adolescent sexual awakening. Yes, it's
just it's adolescence. It's like a new puberty. It's the
first time I've seen this life stage explored as a
moment of puberty, which was like in you know, call
me by your name, the perine or whatever, like where
it's something so revolting but also visceral and intimate and
(20:50):
weird that you have those moments because it's all hormones.
It's like you become your body again.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
And everything that happens around it, like checking if he's
liked her video on Instagram, Like that was just It's
true now, like when you're a single woman dating, like
that's all you do. It's like you have a crash
someone and then you just become fixated and you're like,
how they like this photo? Like you're posting Instagram stories
for that person.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
She's like a woman in her forties who's a fourteen
year old boy who is guided by her insatiable desire
for sex. And that was just so interesting to me.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
That's true, and we kind of are beginning to understand
perimenopause and menopause as like a second adolescence in some
kind of ways, as in it's as big a hormone
or shift. But she's like an adolescent boy obsessed with sex,
but also with this like in her mind a deadline
like yeah, my clock is ticking and I will not
be as sexual being this is what she's thinking in
(21:45):
another few months or years. This part of my life
is going away. And of course, as the book moves
on and gets into that sort of menopausal stuff a
bit more, that's not true, but that's what it feels like,
and it can be true. So she's in their motel
room with Davy, and there's all of that madness going on.
And as much as I wanted her to leave the
motel room when she first got there, then I quite
(22:06):
liked living in that hotel room with her and her weirdness.
I kind of want one. And then she goes back
to her life because she has to. She has child
and husband and all the rest of it. But her
obsession with Davy at that point is still very live
and so, as you've referenced em, she does one of
the most relatable things that we can all imagine, which
(22:27):
is she's like, I'm going to make him want me.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I'm going to make.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Myself so irresistible to him by transforming myself physically.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
You know. She starts on this CrossFit situation. Yeah, she
gets obsessed with how I bumm.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, she gets obsessed with it works and it's so
and then so she gets herself in this particular space.
She travels back to the small town and films herself
dancing outside the door of the motel, posts it online,
and this is where her husband goes.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Because every time anyone posts anything remotely sexy on social media,
we all know it is for one person. And my
question is who is that one person?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
And the husband could tell that person was not him,
of course it wasn't him.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
But it's that whole period of where she goes back
and then goes back to film the video is just
so telling because the best motivation to be the best
version of yourself is to do it for someone else first,
and then you automatically just start doing it for yourself.
And what I liked about that is how, even though
that whole situation doesn't work out the way she wanted to,
(23:39):
she kept going back to the wait, and for me,
that was so telling that she was actually enjoying what
she was doing for herself rather than just for Davy.
And that's the part that I was worried about. I
was worried that after Davy left that whole situation and
she's so sad, that she would just be sad and
go back to like just not enjoying her life.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Well, a more conventional novel The way this would have
played out is that she goes and has whatever kind
of spring she's having with you know, the sexual awakening
in the motel, and then she goes back to her
life and realizes that all along she just wanted to
be a wife, a mother, and that her husband's not
so bad. Like, if this is a more conventional novel,
that would be the arc, that would be the arc
in every movie and all those things. But Miranda July
(24:23):
was never going to do that. Yeah, so what happens
is a reimagined version of monogamy. Right, They agree her
and her husband to.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Take a night yes off being married every week.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So he gets Mondays and she gets Wednesdays, and before
you know it, they've both got girlfriends who they're seeing
on those nights only, and the obsession with Davy begins.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
How does that happen? What do you mean? How does
that happen? Like? I'm literally single?
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
How quickly did they get that?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Always?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Really?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Day a week?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah? It's like how we have a girlfriend? Married people
find a girlfriend or a boyfriend in five men.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
You're juggling like three people, people.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
With other families. I'm like, do you know how hard
I tried to get one in such bullshit after the break.
What I really want to talk about is the most
shocking scenes, the scenes that everyone goes have you got
to this bit yet? Have you got to this bit?
And I want to talk about whether they're gratuitous, whether
they're over the top, or whether they actually served a
really important purpose.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Okay, tell me the most shocking scene for you. I
think it's got to be tampon tamp Gate. It's got
to be the.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Time I have friends who stopped reading at tampon.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Why do you think they stopped reading?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So you know, fresh everybody's memory. Let's just refresh everybody's memories.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
She and Davey are in broad in this sex not
sex obsession. Often in the afternoons, like he'll come over
and they're in bed, but they don't do things, they
can't do anything into it. They he won't actually have
sex with her, which is somehow weirdly so yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So hot.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
And then he gets up and goes to the bathroom
and she follows him in. The first thing that happens
is that she wants to hold his pee.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Do you remember that?
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Yeah, that was not something and she didn't ask for
his consent. So he's midstream and she's cupping the peace and.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
She's enjoying how it smells and all those things. And
she does have an interesting line in there, which is
like peplayers, kind of scary, but once you realize when
it hits your skin, you're not going to set on fire,
it's fine. You get overritten and you go I'm like,
ok I'll take your word it anyway. But that happens,
and then he wants to reciprocate, but she's not furious.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
So she goes to the loo and.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I think she's kind of facing and then he pulls
out the tampon that's in. He's surprised that it's more
than just a little tug. These are all the details
you get, and she says, I think there's some blood
in my labbya and I'm like, okay, I've read the
imagery is fantastic. Takes that out replaces it, and there
is something about she's clearly telling us something.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
It's the position that they're in.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yes, okay, can you remind me of the position.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
He's sitting on the toilet with the seat down, and
he's wearing his jeans and she's sitting on his lap,
and then he's like kind of like as if he's
putting the tampon in on himself, but it's her on
his lap. And then he like first puts one finger
in to feel where her vagina is, and I think
that's the most intimate they ever get. Yeah, and then
(27:20):
he slowly pushes the tampon in and then she gets
up and there's only a little bit of blood on
his jeans, so I think means successful.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It is so intimate.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I mean, I found it very intimate.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It's clearly telling us something about how intimacy is expressed
through ways other than traditionally sexual peters in vagina, sex
or whatever. Clearly, there is something very symbolic about the period,
because that's another bodily thing that her body is kind
of There were just moments in this book where.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I went, how did you even think of that?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Like, how did you come up with that as a
thing that people would do?
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I think that And this is why she's so good.
Is all of this she describes just animal urge. Yes, yes,
she didn't know she wanted to follow into the bathroom
and hold his p in her hands until she was
following him into the bathroom and holding a bit like
and I found that really interesting. But I wasn't very
worried about the tampon. I'm like, sure, I could see
how that was quite intimate and exciting. All I was
doing through that whole period of the book that was
(28:21):
just being would you just have sex? I was desperate
for them to have sex, and I know that wasn't
the ethical request of them, because he was married to
the poor young woman who she had met and who
had she had paid the whole room to do up
the room and give her her mattress. She kind of knew, though, didn't.
She didn't she she did know, but anyway, surely I
don't think she knew. I think by the end she
kind of knows. It was like more of a financial
(28:43):
decision to get her a Davy where they needed to go.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
The fact they didn't have sex. I mean, come on,
imagine if that was your husband who was like, I
didn't have sex with her, but I did remove and
insert her tampons.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
You need to know what.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
But what we do find out, and I think this
was more shocking to me, actually, is that she finds
out at some point that when Davy was younger, he
had a relationship with this older woman Order. She's called
and she's broadly described in the book because our artist
goes and buys something from Ordering, like a secondhand shop.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
I think she goes to buy the quilt start off
a hole like I want to do up the stud.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
That's right, and it's like from an antique kind of place.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
And she and she does describe Order as being attractive
or like she never in fact describes it that way,
quite the opposite. But when she finds out that Order
has had sex with Davy, at least back in the day,
had had sex with Davies, she then gets Ordered to
come over and talk her through having sex with Davy
(29:43):
so that she can get off while that happens, and
then that leads to the two of them basically having
a sexual encounter that I genuinely did not see that coming,
and not because of the same sexness of it all,
because obviously the book is queer in lots of ways.
But that was almost more shocking to me because we're
not ever supposed to think that like old ladies in
(30:04):
inverted commons who work in antique shops and who aren't
like that.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Just that was so out of less to.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Me a great quote which was sometimes my hatred of
older women almost knocked me over. It came so abruptly. Yes,
And part of it is about her own internalized, discussed
horror fear at old ladies, because she can clearly see
that this is where I'm going. You are sexless, yep,
you are undesired. Like she's projecting all of this stuff
(30:32):
which is her own internalized but it's.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Real, like in our society, it's real. You can pretend
it isn't until it's happening to you, and then you're like, oh,
I'm beginning to look like an old And we realized
that the crone is the horror story.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yes, And part of that whole relationship is that she's
sort of thinking, I've got the power in this dynamic.
I'm young, I'm hotter, She's going to be desperate to
be with me, which isn't the case. And she of
course discovers that this woman is still incredibly sexual at
that age and that there's like this, and.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
She was even nervous of like exploring her body because
she didn't know what that body would look like. And
I think she explained that I was like it was
one giant clip or something the clip started and she
didn't know where it ended.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I just that whole bit.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I was like, Wow, Okay, maybe it's because of that
taboo about older women's bodies.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And I was very impressed by that whole scenario.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I thought that was very clever because clearly that was
the point, right, is that there was another stage coming
that wasn't death, and that all the assumptions that she'd
made were actually wrong, which I think was explored through
that queerness, because as the book goes along towards the end,
you know, she's obviously in a dark, dark place for
(31:45):
a while.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
There, she's pining desperately for Davy. She's doing all these
crazy things. She goes and spray paints a chair, they're
getting him to call likes a lot. Her marriage is
breaking down and trying to work it out. But then
glimmers of light start coming in, which is almost surprising
in such an unconventional book. I loved the bit, but
of course I would where she texts and apparently she
(32:05):
Maranda July did this in real life. She texts all
the older women she knows and asks them to tell
her something good that happens once you stop bleeding, as
she puts it. Yeah, that was so moving to me
that part of the book, because it was just beginning
to open little slivers of like possibility, and some of
the answers were just extraordinary about things like my hormone
(32:27):
or migrain stopped. I suddenly stopped caring what people thought
about me, and those kind of more predictable things, but
some really shocking unusual stuff. I was just like, I
never read this in a book before. And even I
know that sounds weird now because we are living in
a very menopausi moment, but it's only been for a
couple of years, and even then it's still always couched
(32:48):
in this slightly uncool, sad way. And I just I
love what she did with this. She might have made
older women seem a bit wild and insane, but also
that there's a lot of interesting shit going on, and
I loved that. And then I also loved and I
know a lot of people she's built a community on this.
But where we land with the non monogamous, different version
(33:11):
of marriage that upset a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, I did it, I don't know this. Yes, so
a lot of people they saw it as selfish, as
even the word privilege came up a lot because she
had a room of her own. Well, but that's the character,
that's the character in the book, that's kind of what works.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
I felt really sad for her when her and a
husband were discussing what their new family would look like,
because I was very much fueled by her. Firstly, she
was the one who wanted to do like the role
playing stuff. She was the one who wanted the day off,
like it was always like her leading that. And then
they both get girlfriends. But then she goes through a
(33:48):
breakup and he just seemingly stays with that girlfriend. Yeah,
and then it ends up her being single in this
marriage and him having a girlfriend, And I was like, oh,
but she seemed okay with that, which also weirded me out, well, because.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
She knows there'll be another girlfriend, do you know what
I mean? And there is. By the end of the book,
she is seeing another person in New York. Like, I
don't know how she does that.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
So I think I feel like she had gone through
different versions of heartbreak throughout this book. That one really
smashed her around because she was surprised, but I think
she also climbed back out of it and knew there'd
be another story. I mean, I think that's one thing
that you do get with age, is like there aren't
really endings, you know, there's just pauses and then you
(34:28):
keep going. But she's built a community. In real life,
Maranda July is built a bit of newsletter community, and
unconventional relationships are a big cornerstone in that because she
said that with her marriage, she wanted them to be
able to explore themselves. So in the book, what they
decide to do when they're having those Mondays and Wednesdays
is to stop having sex with each other then and
(34:50):
remain friends and parents. And they could do it, and
they did it, and by all accounts, Miranda July says
something very similar. Not long after the book was finished,
she announced that her and her husband were doing something similar.
You've got to remember, these are very cool la people, right,
They're not like us, you know what I mean, They're
like very articol people who live in very articol world.
(35:10):
But she said the same thing, and she said, I'm
just happy this is another twist in our story.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
I have one question that I suppose bothered me in retrospect,
which is this story of marriage and children being a
trap and in terms of a lot of people who
didn't finish and a lot of criticism, Miranda July doesn't
sell this period of your life to anyone.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Like am reading this?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Did this make you look forward to perimenopause?
Speaker 4 (35:39):
I'm kind of different because of the workplace I'm in,
I know a lot about perimenopause, so it didn't like
shock me into that, but I did feel quite scared.
But also I just felt so sympathetic towards all the
women in my life who've already been through perimenopause and
they didn't have this book or didn't even go through
it in the last few years where everyone is starting
(35:59):
to talk about it more, because I remember, like, there'll
be times when my mom was going through perimenopause and
I'd immediately like we'd fight all the time because I'd
be like, this is crazy, like you're going crazy.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
We'd be sleeping with.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
The air conon in the middle of winter. Yeah, And
I think when I read this book, I just felt
so so bad because this made me realize that it
just feels like and exactly what the book says like
when you get your period for the first time, as
like a ten year old girl like your mom is
always there, and your mom's the one who's like telling
you what's going to happen and how it's gonna like
(36:32):
change you, and like you get all these like life
lessons from your mom, And I hate that I wasn't
able to do that with her when she was going
through it because you have no one. You have no one,
and you just have to like figure it out on
your own. And then people are calling.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
You crazy and ugly and old and ugly and old.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
That's very true. I just wondered if it's like this
narrative that this certain life stage is a trap and
that at forty five you look around and you go,
I don't want any of this. I don't like this.
I want to change it all. Is that something that
through your interviews on mid through your conversations Holly, is
(37:08):
a bit of a theme that people want to upend
everything massively.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I think you've got to separate. Like, so, this obviously
is a work of fiction and it's an extreme story. Yeah,
clearly this is not what most suburban, peri metopausal women
are doing with their lives, right, But I think one
of the reasons why it's resonated so hard is not
that everybody wishes they were doing that, like blowing up
their marriages and their lives and starting random affairs with
(37:32):
younger men or women, although if they want too, happy days.
But it recognizes the chaos of that time and the
questioning of self and something that comes up so many
times in all the interviews I've done for mid which
is with women in this period of life gen x women,
is this moment of is this?
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Everything is this?
Speaker 3 (37:52):
And let's be clear, that is something that we have
had in our culture known as a midlife crisis forever.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
But it was for dudes. Yeah, like dudes had midlife crisis.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
We've all watched the movies about that, we've all read
the books about that and all those things, and they
take off cycling andy exactly. The thing is is that
that's also happening to women. Now, well it was always,
but they weren't being able to vocalize it. It doesn't
mean it happens to everybody, and it doesn't mean that
everybody panics about their sexuality in this way is dissatisfied
with their lives. But it is a period of transition
(38:22):
and change, and so very often it does coincide. They
call it a midlife collision where something will happen in
your life, whether it is a divorce or whether you
lose your job, or whether this and you suddenly are like,
I'm changing things. You see so many women in midlife
go back to university, change their job, retrain as something,
leave their relationships, cut out some toxic friendships, start lifting weights.
(38:43):
Like it is a period in your life that if
you've followed a kind of conventional path of maybe if
you're going to have children, you've had your children, you're
probably still caring for them, but less than you know
in those early early days. If you're in a relationship,
it's probably been going for a long time, and then
that's either working or it isn't or whatever, and it's
a moment of real questioning. And I think that's what
(39:03):
this book. Let's remember this is always my thing, ab
fictional book that is just one example of something, and
isn't saying marriage is bad, it's not saying monogamy is bad,
it's not saying any of those things. It's just an
example of something. And I just think she nailed so
much of the chaos of that time, and I think
that's why women love this book so hard. Also, we
(39:25):
just love people speaking the unspoken. And she has, as
I said at the beginning, she has taken every taboo
and smashed it. We haven't even talked about the birth trauma.
And yeah, there's a big strong line through that about
this very traumatic thing that happened when she had her son.
That again, women are just supposed to like, well, that'll
turned out okay, you know, and that's not what it's like.
And women, we carry all these things in us for
(39:48):
so long and sometimes they just freaking blow out our
ears and we have to go and hide in a
motel rope out louders.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
It's been really fun. It has been so much for
the next one.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
I still you know, Actually you didn't answer one question
why didn't you like the book? Because you've said that
you respect the book, you like, you enjoyed it, you
couldn't put it down.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
But why didn't you like it?
Speaker 4 (40:08):
I think the scenes of the ones we discussed tampon,
the dog shitting scene too much for you, the dancing
too much, maybe one maybe one out at all that
pushed you too far, And it's.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Just got quite scared. I want to say too.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I do understand the criticism that's like insufferable naval gazing privilege,
Like sure, but then there are lots of books about people.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Like that, you know what I mean? And naval gazing
is the point of auto fiction, I think, and I
don't think any of us would have found a book
about a content woman particularly interesting.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
The next book that we're going to do for our
book club in our episode is an Emily Henry book
that has every girl in my generation in a chokehold.
It's called Great, Big, Beautiful Life.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Have you guys read Emily Henry?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
I haven't, and I've been meaning too. So this is
to kick up the bar my knee.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah, we need it. They're all getting made into movies,
so we have to go.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
But I read a few. This book, I feel like,
is what everyone's reading this.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Year, and out louders, you have one month to read it,
because we're going to drop back in your feed in
a month and we are going to unpack it, hold
hands together and have our second installment of book club.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Mar Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we have recorded this podcast.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to Summer book Club. Today, we are talking about
Miranda Juli's novel All Fours. I'm Jesse Stevens, I'm m Vernum.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
And I am Holly Wainwright and we are the hosts
of Mamma Mia out Loud. This is the Veggie Might
of books. In some ways. It was an enormous ensation
when it came out. It was described by the New
York Times as the world's first great perimenopausal novel. It
has been nominated for many awards. It's been a best seller,
(00:44):
it has sold its socks off, it has been optioned
as you would imagine. But I say it's the Veggie
Might of books because people either love this book or
it really annoyed them.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
So I think we should put our cards on the table.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
First off, about where we sat on that, because the
whole point of a book club, let's just be clear,
is not that everybody had I love that book. Whatever
we're discussing it, we're tossing it around. We're thrown around
its ideas. We assume you've all read it. Where did
we sit?
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I loved it. I did not know it was this
divisive until I googled it and looked at its Goodreads ratings,
and I think that proper reviews across like oh No,
proper reviews very critically acclaimed, but the average person. I
(01:37):
was saying that there's been so many book clubs about this,
and a lot of people have said I could not
finish it.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
I could not get through it.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
I personally loved it. I thought it asked really interesting questions.
I could have spent even longer in Miranda July's head,
and I think that's where I was. I really enjoyed
spending time with her thoughts. I think it's a classic,
it will turn into a classic, and it made me
(02:06):
think entirely differently about a life stage that, despite all
the books written since the beginning of time, has barely
been touched. So I thought it was brave and shameless
in that way. How about you, Am, What did you think?
Speaker 1 (02:24):
I did not like this book?
Speaker 3 (02:28):
This is great.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
However, I could not put it down.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
So I don't really understand the reviews of people who
didn't like it and couldn't finish it because I literally
couldn't put it down. I think her writing, Randa Julyized
writing is so captivating and brilliant, and it like forces
you to stay there, like there's no way. I was
reading it on the toilet, like I physically couldn't put
this book down. I think her writing is just so
old you would approve of that.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
I feel like Miranda July, I would be a big
fan of you reading it on the toilet.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
God, I thought it was just such honest storytelling. However,
the overarching scenes that happen in the book, I was
a bit like like, oh no, I can't get behind this.
And there were times halfway through the book I started
recommending it to older people, including my mom. Oh no,
(03:17):
And then when I got to the end, I was like,
I don't think you'll like this.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Well, one of the reasons it's a perfect book club
book for our particular Momame Out Loud book club is
because Emily Vernon is in her twenties ye, and Jesse
Stevens is in her thirties, and I'm in my early fifties,
so we all come at this book from a very
different place.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Is this what Perry is like for you, Holly?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
Well, Like I didn't move out of my home and
god live in a motel and strike up an affair
with a younger man, if that's what you've mean. Yeah,
but I'm also on team I love this book like
I love this book.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
And I could not put it down. I was obsessed.
Speaker 3 (03:55):
I was listening to it and reading it, which is
what I do when I'm really obsessed with the book
is I'll listen and read at the same time, Like
in the car, I'm listening, and when I get home
and I read, and then I get in the car
and I listen, and I did. That would demon COPD too,
like when I'm really I just need to be in
that world echo all the things that Jesse says about
I just think it's so brave, era defining, Like it's
(04:16):
a proper work of art, you know.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Yeah, there are many many books in the world. I
write books.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
There are lots of different reasons why we write books,
but there are some books that are a proper work
of art, and this is one of those books. Now,
not all art is for everybody, do you know what
I mean? This was definitely for me. But I know
exactly why it's so divisive. It is divisive because the
topics that this book touches on are exactly the topics
(04:42):
that are the third rails, particularly in women's lives.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
So we are.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Dealing with aging, which you know nobody likes, sexuality obviously, motherhood,
non monogamy, non traditional marriage. We are dealing with birth trauma.
We are dealing with cheating. We are dealing with tampons,
all kinds of kinky sex, and the very divisive issue
of interior decorating. So I think really like you couldn't
(05:06):
have a more provocationative book.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
Yes, And I think that I would like to set
up the premise a little bit in terms of an analogy.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Before you do that, Jesse, I'm asking the book group
of questions, do you think we need to talk a
little bit about what it's about her?
Speaker 1 (05:20):
Are we assuming that all our listeners.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
Now, I reckon, can you give us just like a quick,
quick rundown, a very toplight because people might have read
it a little while ago.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, a little plot summary and also a little top
line about Miranda July.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
She was new to me.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
I'm going to say, like, cool people, properly cool people
have been across Miranda July for a long time. So
she is an artist. She is now in her mid forties.
She's made movies, she's made movies, she's written other books,
and she's an avant garde visual artist. She's not a
kind of like rom com queen or something. You know,
she's a very specific type of artist. But people who
(05:54):
are cool and who are across her were hanging out
for this book, and then people like me who didn't
really know about her but read this book and went, wow,
she sounds interesting and then started to explore her.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
You're like wow.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
So there's a lot of crossover betwre in the plot
and her real life, so very top line. The plot
follows an unnamed female narrator who is forty five semi
famous artist herself, and she basically comes across a creative
and personal crisis in her early midlife. Right while she's
questioning her marriage and everything, she comes into twenty thousand
(06:25):
dollars from a payment she wasn't necessarily expecting, and she
decides that she's going to go to a sort of
writing event in New York City and she's going to
drive across the country to get there because she's going
to have an adventure and self discovery and whatever. But
she never gets further than half an hour from her home,
where she stops at a motel, bails herself up there,
(06:47):
spends all the money on doing it up, and then
embarks on an improbable and inappropriate, obsessive sort of affair.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
With a younger man. That is kind of the arc.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
There is so much more to that because then she
returns home and she has to grapple with all.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Of those things.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
It is also the genre is auto fiction, and autofiction
is when there are elements of this that are autobiographical, certainly,
and July admits that, but it's literary. It's also imagined,
and she actually doesn't like the term auto fiction.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Lots of people are bringing that to her.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
She says, it is very close to the bone and
she wanted to fully embody that character by making her
very close to her But it is fiction because.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
I feel like when you say auto fiction, it just
brings in a whole lot of like people just want
to know what's fact and what's not.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Well, people do, though, want to know that.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
And the fact that she has one child who I
believe is non binary, and explores marriage in a way
that seems to parallel her real life even the career,
like there are definitely parallels, and the fact that she
kept the protagonist unnamed. It's like she was just okay
for us to project that it was her. But the premise,
(07:52):
I think can be also summarized in this analogy. So
early on her husband, Harris, you know, their relationship is complicated,
but he's certainly not a villain. He's not a bad man.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
And he's a film director. He's her real life husband.
Is so another ARTI another art he kind of DoD I.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Bet Shuman's being super sexy.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Yeah, I think he seemed quite sexy and nice and
good dad and all that kind of stuff. Now he
is sitting at I think it's like a dinner party scenario.
And he has a theory that there are two types
of people. There are parkers and there are drivers. And
he says that drivers don't need applause for every single
little thing. They get joy from the boring stuff, from
(08:30):
patting a dog, hanging out with their kid. That is
enough for them. That is why they're primed for a
cross country drive. They're happy to do the long drives. Parkers,
on the other hand, need a discrete task that seems impossible.
They thrive at moments of crisis. They like things that
are difficult. For example, they like when people say applaud
(08:51):
them because they were able to get their car into
a really tight spot, and the rest of the time,
and this is what Harris says, they're bored and fundamentally
kind of disappointed. Now are you at parker or a driver?
Speaker 4 (09:07):
When I read this analogy in the book, I didn't understand,
And now you've made me understand.
Speaker 2 (09:13):
I must say I still am getting my head around it.
But a lot of people have struggled with the analogy
and other people its just here.
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, I think I'm a parker.
Speaker 4 (09:24):
I think not a lot of things bring me joy
if it's not like something that I know I've worked really,
really hard towards and I deserve that joy. When he
was describing drivers, they just seem like happy all the time.
And I don't hint, yeah, yeah, and I don't think
that's me.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
How about you, Holly, I don't know, Like I think
I'm a driver, but I have a suspicion I might
be more of a park I mean, I'm I went
on the record, I'm terrible at both, literally, like I
one of my stories I always tell you, Jesse, is
that I'm very good at parking. Very My mother has
ever given me a compliment about was the time that
(10:00):
I did a parallel park and she said, of all
the things you can do that that's really impressive.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I think that's illustrative of who you are.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Maybe you're a parker with a driver rising.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
I feel as though I was a parker and I've
become a driver. Even though Harris in this says you
can't go from one to the other, you can't want
to be another. A lot of drivers want to be
parkers because they think that they're more spontaneous and more fun.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
And creative and interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Yeah, but I must say that I feel as though
I'm leaning more into the boring long drive rather than
I do a lot of boring long driving in my life. Obviously,
our artist, our protagonist too is unnamed, is a parker
the whole point of this, right, she is, And this
is one of the criticisms that a lot of people
have for this book. There is no question she is neurotic,
(10:48):
She is hard work, she is difficult, like there are
all of those things are one hundred percent probably depressed.
Speaker 1 (10:55):
I want to be a driver now.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
No, no, But if that gets to the whole crux
of this is being like a likable, happy, gir lucky person.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
The only kind of protagonist you want.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
No, you don't want a protagonist that do you write like,
that's not interesting.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Want a protagonist who I like.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
I'm the same.
Speaker 4 (11:13):
I noticed that with a lot of the books I'm reading,
I am more attached to that story. Like, for example,
I didn't like this book, but I know this is
one of the books that I will think about all
the time. And I think all of them have in
common is that I don't actually like the main character
in the book we talked about. I think Margo's got
money troubles. Yes, like, she's not a likable person, and
(11:35):
I think about that book all the time.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
And she Characters are meant to do things that make
you yell at them, go why are you doing that?
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Stop it?
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Stop it, stop it. But there's a part of you
that also understands if a good writer can make you
understand the decisions even if you wouldn't do it. And
the reason that this character embarks on the drive from
LA to New York is because she's going, I'm a driver,
I can be a driver. And the point, of course
is that she absolutely isn't.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
I get really frustrated with the likability question, and as
a writer, you get asked it all the time. And
the thing is is that we hang this on female
characters way more than any other. And if she is
doing anything that hints of not being a perfect mother
or wife, she will draw a shitload of criticism. There
is no exception to that, right, So a lot of
(12:28):
people who are upset about this book, they'll be like,
what a terrible thing to do. She abandoned her child,
you know, she putting her needs first over and over.
I just think this is fiction, Like, this is a
book you're supposed to do. It doesn't mean you have
to do it if you like her. It doesn't mean
that you two have to leave your marriage and drive
across the country and have inappropriate affairs.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
All kinds of people. Just relax into it, guys, Like
you can't.
Speaker 4 (12:52):
And I think that's the beauty of this book, Like
it's written so so well that there's no part of
me that can relax when I'm reading it.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Now.
Speaker 3 (13:00):
Relaxes the wrong term, but what I guess what I
mean is relax with the judgment. Like, just enjoy watching
this weird person, this strange, unusual person doing really strange
unusual things without it constantly reflecting back at you like,
well I wouldn't do that, Well, I wouldn't do that.
A lot of criticism authors get is about that.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
But isn't that the best part of fiction because it's
the one time we're allowed to judge because it's not
a real person.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
But it's not about judging, like it's about trying to understand.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It's like the book is great, Like who cares whether
or not you would do that?
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't understand
the impulse.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
I like eating books about unusual things or really recognizable people,
but nearly everyone I know and like in my life
is a bit annoying to and does make selfish choices too,
and is not perfect in any way. And sometimes you
know message, I.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Spent most of this book yelling go home, home, idn't
want to go That was the tension, right, that was
the joy? Is what are you doing? How are you
spending your time?
Speaker 1 (14:01):
I love it?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Why are you redecorating a motel that isn't even yours?
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Like?
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Why are you spending all your money there? So? Why
isn't the affair on? Why aren't you just having sex?
Like I just couldn't.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
It's so wild.
Speaker 3 (14:16):
And you know, actually about the Parker driver thing, I
think I must be a driver because one thing I
found very difficult to grapple with, and I always do
in movies and books that do this way, they stick
people in a place really early. Like I wanted momentum.
I wanted her to leave. I wanted her to the
Cot trip, she said. And the thing is is she
(14:37):
also thought she was going to start the trip. It's like,
this is the beauty of this weird character, right, is
that she says, I'm just going to stay in this
hotel for a day, you know, And then she's like,
I'm picking out curtains and then making it. And then
she's like, but it'll just be a couple of days
and then I'll go again. But then she's finding herself
doing all these weird things. We have to talk about, Davy.
(14:57):
We do, we do our character, our nameless character is
getting her car washed, I think, right, she said, the
servo in Australian parlance, yea, and a young attractive man
washes her windscreen. They make brief eye contacts.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Except I think she's looking and he can't.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
She thinks he's looking at his own reflections.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
She thinks that he can't see her. And there is
a twist in the book. I mean, everyone's read the books.
He gets this like quite far in when you find
out he knew exactly who she was and he recognized
her and it wasn't a chance encounter, but she thinks
that it is and she messes with that in her
mind and stuff. What did we think about Davy? Because
as much as we talk about yelling at the main character,
(15:38):
aren't we also yelling at Davy? Because Davy is married Jamie,
a young married man who meets a woman of influence
who he thinks can help his career basically at a
servo and then tortures her. Not literally, he doesn't torture her,
but like he knows she really wants to have sex
with him. He knows she is so obsessed with him.
(15:59):
The number one word that's used for this book is horny.
And there's no question her character is so horny all
the time, and he just keeps going, just give her
just enough for a long time. I mean, what do
we think about Davy?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
I loved the blurring that July draws between and this
isn't just Davy This is every sexual love interest between
arousal and disgust, because you are horrified and embarrassed by
him and you cringe while at the same time being like,
there's something weirdly enticing. Don't get me started on the dancing,
(16:33):
because I had to imagine I went to this weird
Magic Mike Live event and there was this guy. Some
of them were hot because they were good at dancing,
so I kept imagining he was like Magic Mike, which
I don't know what he was meant to be doing.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
But that was part of the genius of the Weird World, right,
is that she writes that scene where she's so obsessed
with this guy and she finally gets him in the
motel room and he says, I want to dance for
you and.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
The collective I would die.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
I would die, the collective, all of us, and our
artist's character is all like, oh, well, that's it, Like Mike,
there's alternative female boner is about you too, Yeah, that's over.
And so it starts and it is mortifying, but by
the end it's amazing, transcendent, and she's even more into
it than before. And that scene is extraordinary because you
(17:21):
feel every bit of it, like Oh.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
No, stop come in my eyes. I could just keep
them laughing. Oh, hold on, what.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
What did you think of Davy? M?
Speaker 4 (17:30):
The minute we were introduced to Davy, I was like,
this boy is trouble. He's just he is a manipulator.
He is mean, and he just likes to have fun
with older women's emotions. Like that's literally what he is.
He firstly didn't have to wash your wind screen. He
did that on his own accord. So he like saw.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Her, he went, that's that famous lady bait went back.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
To her hotel room, said stuff like I can't say
I love you, I'll help you with your tampon, we
need to get and not even like I want to
dance with you, but also like I want you to
watch me dance, and then he just started dancing.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Weren't they using each other though in the same way? Like,
wasn't it?
Speaker 1 (18:13):
But what was she getting out of it all? Everything?
Speaker 4 (18:15):
Oh, I don't think she got anything for her except
lifting some weights.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
I think Oh he was some fantasy escapism. You're not
my domestic obligations, Like it was never about Davy, like
it could have been interchange days any other man.
Speaker 4 (18:33):
But that's what the issue is, and then she landed
on like him like she could have.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Had the subject to all this, right, is the perimenopausal bit. Yeah,
so she's come across a graph that basically tells her
desire is about to die, that gra's scared. The perspective
from an old lady at the table, You are a
sexual person, whatever degree you always have. And it's clear
that this character has always been a pretty sexual person.
She's queer, she's had lots of different kinds of relationships.
(18:59):
Her and her husband have a particular kind of sexual relationship.
The book opens with her getting a letter through her
mailbox saying a man was taking a picture of the house.
So she just starts masturbating that idea. She's like, yeah, awesome.
Many of us would be like.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Oh, I call the cops.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
I think she masturbates ten times.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
She does, So you're that and then all these things
are happening to your body that are changing that thing,
like making desire really unattainable for you, making the kind
of sex that you can have really difficult for you.
Changing that if you're a person as she who's always
been attractive and desired, like suddenly you're not because you're
(19:37):
not the young thing anymore, Like it really messes with
your head. So she's chasing being able to hold onto
desire for the second half of her life, right, And
that's why it's flying in all these misplaced places, right,
so she I think that's part of what makes all
this so urgent. And I can't remember the last time
I read, well, maybe ever reading account of desire an
(20:00):
unrequited desire, and obsession and sexual obsession that are quite
so visceral and.
Speaker 2 (20:07):
And the need to feel desired. And that's what the
Davy thing was about. And to me, I do you
think she had that need fulfilled? Well, by the end
of the book, she fulfills it in other ways, right.
And some people thought the ending and that sort of
denument was a bit too pat but I felt like
Davy was kind of fixated on her and she quite
liked that. The only thing I can compare it to
(20:30):
is a book about an adolescent sexual awakening. Yes, it's
just it's adolescence. It's like a new puberty. It's the
first time I've seen this life stage explored as a
moment of puberty, which was like in you know, call
me by your name, the perine or whatever, like where
it's something so revolting but also visceral and intimate and
(20:50):
weird that you have those moments because it's all hormones.
It's like you become your body again.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
And everything that happens around it, like checking if he's
liked her video on Instagram, Like that was just It's
true now, like when you're a single woman dating, like
that's all you do. It's like you have a crash
someone and then you just become fixated and you're like,
how they like this photo? Like you're posting Instagram stories
for that person.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
She's like a woman in her forties who's a fourteen
year old boy who is guided by her insatiable desire
for sex. And that was just so interesting to me.
Speaker 3 (21:23):
That's true, and we kind of are beginning to understand
perimenopause and menopause as like a second adolescence in some
kind of ways, as in it's as big a hormone
or shift. But she's like an adolescent boy obsessed with sex,
but also with this like in her mind a deadline
like yeah, my clock is ticking and I will not
be as sexual being this is what she's thinking in
(21:45):
another few months or years. This part of my life
is going away. And of course, as the book moves
on and gets into that sort of menopausal stuff a
bit more, that's not true, but that's what it feels like,
and it can be true. So she's in their motel
room with Davy, and there's all of that madness going on.
And as much as I wanted her to leave the
motel room when she first got there, then I quite
(22:06):
liked living in that hotel room with her and her weirdness.
I kind of want one. And then she goes back
to her life because she has to. She has child
and husband and all the rest of it. But her
obsession with Davy at that point is still very live
and so, as you've referenced em, she does one of
the most relatable things that we can all imagine, which
(22:27):
is she's like, I'm going to make him want me.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
I'm going to make.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Myself so irresistible to him by transforming myself physically.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
You know. She starts on this CrossFit situation. Yeah, she
gets obsessed with how I bumm.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah, she gets obsessed with it works and it's so
and then so she gets herself in this particular space.
She travels back to the small town and films herself
dancing outside the door of the motel, posts it online,
and this is where her husband goes.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
Because every time anyone posts anything remotely sexy on social media,
we all know it is for one person. And my
question is who is that one person?
Speaker 3 (23:10):
And the husband could tell that person was not him,
of course it wasn't him.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
But it's that whole period of where she goes back
and then goes back to film the video is just
so telling because the best motivation to be the best
version of yourself is to do it for someone else first,
and then you automatically just start doing it for yourself.
And what I liked about that is how, even though
that whole situation doesn't work out the way she wanted to,
(23:39):
she kept going back to the wait, and for me,
that was so telling that she was actually enjoying what
she was doing for herself rather than just for Davy.
And that's the part that I was worried about. I
was worried that after Davy left that whole situation and
she's so sad, that she would just be sad and
go back to like just not enjoying her life.
Speaker 3 (24:00):
Well, a more conventional novel The way this would have
played out is that she goes and has whatever kind
of spring she's having with you know, the sexual awakening
in the motel, and then she goes back to her
life and realizes that all along she just wanted to
be a wife, a mother, and that her husband's not
so bad. Like, if this is a more conventional novel,
that would be the arc, that would be the arc
in every movie and all those things. But Miranda July
(24:23):
was never going to do that. Yeah, so what happens
is a reimagined version of monogamy. Right, They agree her
and her husband to.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Take a night yes off being married every week.
Speaker 3 (24:36):
So he gets Mondays and she gets Wednesdays, and before
you know it, they've both got girlfriends who they're seeing
on those nights only, and the obsession with Davy begins.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
How does that happen? What do you mean? How does
that happen? Like? I'm literally single?
Speaker 3 (24:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (24:51):
How quickly did they get that?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
Always?
Speaker 3 (24:53):
Really?
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Day a week?
Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah? It's like how we have a girlfriend? Married people
find a girlfriend or a boyfriend in five men.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
You're juggling like three people, people.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
With other families. I'm like, do you know how hard
I tried to get one in such bullshit after the break.
What I really want to talk about is the most
shocking scenes, the scenes that everyone goes have you got
to this bit yet? Have you got to this bit?
And I want to talk about whether they're gratuitous, whether
they're over the top, or whether they actually served a
really important purpose.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Okay, tell me the most shocking scene for you. I
think it's got to be tampon tamp Gate. It's got
to be the.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
Time I have friends who stopped reading at tampon.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
Why do you think they stopped reading?
Speaker 1 (25:34):
So you know, fresh everybody's memory. Let's just refresh everybody's memories.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
She and Davey are in broad in this sex not
sex obsession. Often in the afternoons, like he'll come over
and they're in bed, but they don't do things, they
can't do anything into it. They he won't actually have
sex with her, which is somehow weirdly so yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
So hot.
Speaker 3 (25:54):
And then he gets up and goes to the bathroom
and she follows him in. The first thing that happens
is that she wants to hold his pee.
Speaker 1 (26:01):
Do you remember that?
Speaker 4 (26:02):
Yeah, that was not something and she didn't ask for
his consent. So he's midstream and she's cupping the peace and.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
She's enjoying how it smells and all those things. And
she does have an interesting line in there, which is
like peplayers, kind of scary, but once you realize when
it hits your skin, you're not going to set on fire,
it's fine. You get overritten and you go I'm like,
ok I'll take your word it anyway. But that happens,
and then he wants to reciprocate, but she's not furious.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
So she goes to the loo and.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
I think she's kind of facing and then he pulls
out the tampon that's in. He's surprised that it's more
than just a little tug. These are all the details
you get, and she says, I think there's some blood
in my labbya and I'm like, okay, I've read the
imagery is fantastic. Takes that out replaces it, and there
is something about she's clearly telling us something.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
It's the position that they're in.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yes, okay, can you remind me of the position.
Speaker 4 (26:58):
He's sitting on the toilet with the seat down, and
he's wearing his jeans and she's sitting on his lap,
and then he's like kind of like as if he's
putting the tampon in on himself, but it's her on
his lap. And then he like first puts one finger
in to feel where her vagina is, and I think
that's the most intimate they ever get. Yeah, and then
(27:20):
he slowly pushes the tampon in and then she gets
up and there's only a little bit of blood on
his jeans, so I think means successful.
Speaker 2 (27:28):
It is so intimate.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
I mean, I found it very intimate.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It's clearly telling us something about how intimacy is expressed
through ways other than traditionally sexual peters in vagina, sex
or whatever. Clearly, there is something very symbolic about the period,
because that's another bodily thing that her body is kind
of There were just moments in this book where.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I went, how did you even think of that?
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Like, how did you come up with that as a
thing that people would do?
Speaker 3 (27:59):
I think that And this is why she's so good.
Is all of this she describes just animal urge. Yes, yes,
she didn't know she wanted to follow into the bathroom
and hold his p in her hands until she was
following him into the bathroom and holding a bit like
and I found that really interesting. But I wasn't very
worried about the tampon. I'm like, sure, I could see
how that was quite intimate and exciting. All I was
doing through that whole period of the book that was
(28:21):
just being would you just have sex? I was desperate
for them to have sex, and I know that wasn't
the ethical request of them, because he was married to
the poor young woman who she had met and who
had she had paid the whole room to do up
the room and give her her mattress. She kind of knew, though, didn't.
She didn't she she did know, but anyway, surely I
don't think she knew. I think by the end she
kind of knows. It was like more of a financial
(28:43):
decision to get her a Davy where they needed to go.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
The fact they didn't have sex. I mean, come on,
imagine if that was your husband who was like, I
didn't have sex with her, but I did remove and
insert her tampons.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
You need to know what.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
But what we do find out, and I think this
was more shocking to me, actually, is that she finds
out at some point that when Davy was younger, he
had a relationship with this older woman Order. She's called
and she's broadly described in the book because our artist
goes and buys something from Ordering, like a secondhand shop.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
I think she goes to buy the quilt start off
a hole like I want to do up the stud.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
That's right, and it's like from an antique kind of place.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
And she and she does describe Order as being attractive
or like she never in fact describes it that way,
quite the opposite. But when she finds out that Order
has had sex with Davy, at least back in the day,
had had sex with Davies, she then gets Ordered to
come over and talk her through having sex with Davy
(29:43):
so that she can get off while that happens, and
then that leads to the two of them basically having
a sexual encounter that I genuinely did not see that coming,
and not because of the same sexness of it all,
because obviously the book is queer in lots of ways.
But that was almost more shocking to me because we're
not ever supposed to think that like old ladies in
(30:04):
inverted commons who work in antique shops and who aren't
like that.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Just that was so out of less to.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Me a great quote which was sometimes my hatred of
older women almost knocked me over. It came so abruptly. Yes,
And part of it is about her own internalized, discussed
horror fear at old ladies, because she can clearly see
that this is where I'm going. You are sexless, yep,
you are undesired. Like she's projecting all of this stuff
(30:32):
which is her own internalized but it's.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Real, like in our society, it's real. You can pretend
it isn't until it's happening to you, and then you're like, oh,
I'm beginning to look like an old And we realized
that the crone is the horror story.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yes, And part of that whole relationship is that she's
sort of thinking, I've got the power in this dynamic.
I'm young, I'm hotter, She's going to be desperate to
be with me, which isn't the case. And she of
course discovers that this woman is still incredibly sexual at
that age and that there's like this, and.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
She was even nervous of like exploring her body because
she didn't know what that body would look like. And
I think she explained that I was like it was
one giant clip or something the clip started and she
didn't know where it ended.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
I just that whole bit.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
I was like, Wow, Okay, maybe it's because of that
taboo about older women's bodies.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
And I was very impressed by that whole scenario.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
I thought that was very clever because clearly that was
the point, right, is that there was another stage coming
that wasn't death, and that all the assumptions that she'd
made were actually wrong, which I think was explored through
that queerness, because as the book goes along towards the end,
you know, she's obviously in a dark, dark place for
(31:45):
a while.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
There, she's pining desperately for Davy. She's doing all these
crazy things. She goes and spray paints a chair, they're
getting him to call likes a lot. Her marriage is
breaking down and trying to work it out. But then
glimmers of light start coming in, which is almost surprising
in such an unconventional book. I loved the bit, but
of course I would where she texts and apparently she
(32:05):
Maranda July did this in real life. She texts all
the older women she knows and asks them to tell
her something good that happens once you stop bleeding, as
she puts it. Yeah, that was so moving to me
that part of the book, because it was just beginning
to open little slivers of like possibility, and some of
the answers were just extraordinary about things like my hormone
(32:27):
or migrain stopped. I suddenly stopped caring what people thought
about me, and those kind of more predictable things, but
some really shocking unusual stuff. I was just like, I
never read this in a book before. And even I
know that sounds weird now because we are living in
a very menopausi moment, but it's only been for a
couple of years, and even then it's still always couched
(32:48):
in this slightly uncool, sad way. And I just I
love what she did with this. She might have made
older women seem a bit wild and insane, but also
that there's a lot of interesting shit going on, and
I loved that. And then I also loved and I
know a lot of people she's built a community on this.
But where we land with the non monogamous, different version
(33:11):
of marriage that upset a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah, I did it, I don't know this. Yes, so
a lot of people they saw it as selfish, as
even the word privilege came up a lot because she
had a room of her own. Well, but that's the character,
that's the character in the book, that's kind of what works.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
I felt really sad for her when her and a
husband were discussing what their new family would look like,
because I was very much fueled by her. Firstly, she
was the one who wanted to do like the role
playing stuff. She was the one who wanted the day off,
like it was always like her leading that. And then
they both get girlfriends. But then she goes through a
(33:48):
breakup and he just seemingly stays with that girlfriend. Yeah,
and then it ends up her being single in this
marriage and him having a girlfriend, And I was like, oh,
but she seemed okay with that, which also weirded me out, well, because.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
She knows there'll be another girlfriend, do you know what
I mean? And there is. By the end of the book,
she is seeing another person in New York. Like, I
don't know how she does that.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
So I think I feel like she had gone through
different versions of heartbreak throughout this book. That one really
smashed her around because she was surprised, but I think
she also climbed back out of it and knew there'd
be another story. I mean, I think that's one thing
that you do get with age, is like there aren't
really endings, you know, there's just pauses and then you
(34:28):
keep going. But she's built a community. In real life,
Maranda July is built a bit of newsletter community, and
unconventional relationships are a big cornerstone in that because she
said that with her marriage, she wanted them to be
able to explore themselves. So in the book, what they
decide to do when they're having those Mondays and Wednesdays
is to stop having sex with each other then and
(34:50):
remain friends and parents. And they could do it, and
they did it, and by all accounts, Miranda July says
something very similar. Not long after the book was finished,
she announced that her and her husband were doing something similar.
You've got to remember, these are very cool la people, right,
They're not like us, you know what I mean, They're
like very articol people who live in very articol world.
(35:10):
But she said the same thing, and she said, I'm
just happy this is another twist in our story.
Speaker 2 (35:14):
I have one question that I suppose bothered me in retrospect,
which is this story of marriage and children being a
trap and in terms of a lot of people who
didn't finish and a lot of criticism, Miranda July doesn't
sell this period of your life to anyone.
Speaker 1 (35:35):
Like am reading this?
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Did this make you look forward to perimenopause?
Speaker 4 (35:39):
I'm kind of different because of the workplace I'm in,
I know a lot about perimenopause, so it didn't like
shock me into that, but I did feel quite scared.
But also I just felt so sympathetic towards all the
women in my life who've already been through perimenopause and
they didn't have this book or didn't even go through
it in the last few years where everyone is starting
(35:59):
to talk about it more, because I remember, like, there'll
be times when my mom was going through perimenopause and
I'd immediately like we'd fight all the time because I'd
be like, this is crazy, like you're going crazy.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
We'd be sleeping with.
Speaker 4 (36:10):
The air conon in the middle of winter. Yeah, And
I think when I read this book, I just felt
so so bad because this made me realize that it
just feels like and exactly what the book says like
when you get your period for the first time, as
like a ten year old girl like your mom is
always there, and your mom's the one who's like telling
you what's going to happen and how it's gonna like
(36:32):
change you, and like you get all these like life
lessons from your mom, And I hate that I wasn't
able to do that with her when she was going
through it because you have no one. You have no one,
and you just have to like figure it out on
your own. And then people are calling.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
You crazy and ugly and old and ugly and old.
Speaker 2 (36:48):
That's very true. I just wondered if it's like this
narrative that this certain life stage is a trap and
that at forty five you look around and you go,
I don't want any of this. I don't like this.
I want to change it all. Is that something that
through your interviews on mid through your conversations Holly, is
(37:08):
a bit of a theme that people want to upend
everything massively.
Speaker 3 (37:12):
I think you've got to separate. Like, so, this obviously
is a work of fiction and it's an extreme story. Yeah,
clearly this is not what most suburban, peri metopausal women
are doing with their lives, right, But I think one
of the reasons why it's resonated so hard is not
that everybody wishes they were doing that, like blowing up
their marriages and their lives and starting random affairs with
(37:32):
younger men or women, although if they want too, happy days.
But it recognizes the chaos of that time and the
questioning of self and something that comes up so many
times in all the interviews I've done for mid which
is with women in this period of life gen x women,
is this moment of is this?
Speaker 1 (37:50):
Everything is this?
Speaker 3 (37:52):
And let's be clear, that is something that we have
had in our culture known as a midlife crisis forever.
Speaker 1 (37:57):
But it was for dudes. Yeah, like dudes had midlife crisis.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
We've all watched the movies about that, we've all read
the books about that and all those things, and they
take off cycling andy exactly. The thing is is that
that's also happening to women. Now, well it was always,
but they weren't being able to vocalize it. It doesn't
mean it happens to everybody, and it doesn't mean that
everybody panics about their sexuality in this way is dissatisfied
with their lives. But it is a period of transition
(38:22):
and change, and so very often it does coincide. They
call it a midlife collision where something will happen in
your life, whether it is a divorce or whether you
lose your job, or whether this and you suddenly are like,
I'm changing things. You see so many women in midlife
go back to university, change their job, retrain as something,
leave their relationships, cut out some toxic friendships, start lifting weights.
(38:43):
Like it is a period in your life that if
you've followed a kind of conventional path of maybe if
you're going to have children, you've had your children, you're
probably still caring for them, but less than you know
in those early early days. If you're in a relationship,
it's probably been going for a long time, and then
that's either working or it isn't or whatever, and it's
a moment of real questioning. And I think that's what
(39:03):
this book. Let's remember this is always my thing, ab
fictional book that is just one example of something, and
isn't saying marriage is bad, it's not saying monogamy is bad,
it's not saying any of those things. It's just an
example of something. And I just think she nailed so
much of the chaos of that time, and I think
that's why women love this book so hard. Also, we
(39:25):
just love people speaking the unspoken. And she has, as
I said at the beginning, she has taken every taboo
and smashed it. We haven't even talked about the birth trauma.
And yeah, there's a big strong line through that about
this very traumatic thing that happened when she had her son.
That again, women are just supposed to like, well, that'll
turned out okay, you know, and that's not what it's like.
And women, we carry all these things in us for
(39:48):
so long and sometimes they just freaking blow out our
ears and we have to go and hide in a
motel rope out louders.
Speaker 2 (39:55):
Thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
It's been really fun. It has been so much for
the next one.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
I still you know, Actually you didn't answer one question
why didn't you like the book? Because you've said that
you respect the book, you like, you enjoyed it, you
couldn't put it down.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
But why didn't you like it?
Speaker 4 (40:08):
I think the scenes of the ones we discussed tampon,
the dog shitting scene too much for you, the dancing
too much, maybe one maybe one out at all that
pushed you too far, And it's.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Just got quite scared. I want to say too.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I do understand the criticism that's like insufferable naval gazing privilege,
Like sure, but then there are lots of books about people.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Like that, you know what I mean? And naval gazing
is the point of auto fiction, I think, and I
don't think any of us would have found a book
about a content woman particularly interesting.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:40):
The next book that we're going to do for our
book club in our episode is an Emily Henry book
that has every girl in my generation in a chokehold.
It's called Great, Big, Beautiful Life.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
Have you guys read Emily Henry?
Speaker 2 (40:54):
I haven't, and I've been meaning too. So this is
to kick up the bar my knee.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Yeah, we need it. They're all getting made into movies,
so we have to go.
Speaker 4 (41:00):
But I read a few. This book, I feel like,
is what everyone's reading this.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Year, and out louders, you have one month to read it,
because we're going to drop back in your feed in
a month and we are going to unpack it, hold
hands together and have our second installment of book club.
Speaker 4 (41:16):
Bye bye.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
Mar Mayer acknowledges the traditional owners of the land on
which we have recorded this podcast.
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