November 20, 2025 • 22 mins
Since Hannah Clarke and her three children were murdered in 2020, 431 women have been killed in Australia.
But when it comes to Domestic & Family Violence, there are systems in place that should protect people are maybe failing.
Following a two year investigation, journalist Ben Smee has been unpacking just how we tackle DV and where the institutions might be coming up short.
And in headlines today, Ukraine and Russia have carried out another exchange of soldiers’ bodies; Kellie Sloane is set to become the new NSW Liberal leader after Mark Speakman resigned under pressure; A public inquiry has delivered an assessment of the UK’s response to COVID-19, finding former PM Boris Johnson oversaw a toxic, chaotic and slow system; Colleen Hoover says she is now “embarrassed” to be associated with her bestselling novel It Ends With Us following the legal drama between the film’s stars.
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Hosts: Taylah Strano & Tahli Blackman
Guest: Ben Smee, Guardian Journalist
Audio Producer: Lu Hill
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to a Mumma mea podcast. Hey, I'm Taylor Strano.
This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast, The Quickie.
Four hundred and thirty one. That's the number of women
who've died since Hannah Clark and her children were killed now.
(00:28):
That number comes via Scherrell Moody, founder of the Red
Heart Campaign and the Australian Femicide Watch, tracking the number
of women and children lost to violence. In cases of DV,
blame often lies with the victim, or solely on the perpetrator,
their poor mental health or troubled upbringing. But what about
a larger conversation about how these four hundred and thirty
(00:51):
one deaths and so many others could have been prevented?
This week, a new investigation, years in the making, starts
to pull at a thread of how he perceived it
V and who's supposed to keep us safe during those times?
Before we get there, He's Charlie Blackman with the latest
from the QUICKI newsroom for Friday, November twenty one.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Thanks Taylor, Ukraine and Russia have carried out another exchange
of soldiers' bodies. Ukraine says it has received one thousand bodies,
while Russia state media reports said that thirty were returned
to Russia. Ukraine's Prisoner of War Coordination Center says investigators
will now work to identify the remains and thanks to
the Red Cross for mediating. This is the fifteenth exchange
(01:35):
this year, and Ukraine says it has recovered more than
fifteen thousand bodies since the war began. Ukraine has long
accused Russia of returning bodies in poor condition or even
sending back Russian soldiers by mistake, which must go denies.
This exchange comes as fighting continues while more than four
hundred thousand Ukrainians remain without power after recent Russian attacks
(01:57):
damage key energy infrastructure. Nuclear plans have been forced to
cut output because of transmission line damage. Kelley Sloane is
set to become the new new South Wales Liberal leader
after Mark Speakman resigned under pressure, leaving the first term
MP as the only confirmed candidate. Ahead of Friday's party
room vote. Speakman acknowledged the statistical unlikelihood of his first
(02:21):
term opposition winning the twenty twenty seven state election, with
recent polls putting Labour ahead fifty nine to forty one
on a two party preferred basis. Election analysist Ben Rowe
says a new leader is unlikely to shift the numbers,
arguing the party's problems run deeper than Speakman's personal standing.
He says voters may be responding to broader issues, internal
(02:44):
divisions or the wider Liberal brand. The New South Wales
Liberals remain committed to net zero emissions by twenty fifty
in contrast to the federal coalition. Sloane, a former TV
news presenter elected in twenty twenty three, has been widely
viewed as the party's strongest option to take on Labour.
A public inquiry has delivered a damning assessment of the
(03:07):
UK's response to COVID nineteen, finding former Prime Minister Boris
Johnson oversaw a toxic, chaotic and slow system that contributed
to thousands of avoidable deaths. Inquiry chair had The Hallett
said the government failed to grasp the seriousness of the
virus early in twenty twenty, relying on false assurances that
the UK was prepared. She said Johnson was distracted by
(03:30):
other political priorities and did not provide the leadership needed
to inject urgency into the response. The report found that
the late lockdown on March twenty three resulted in about
twenty three thousand additional deaths during the first wave, and
delays later in the year triggered further restrictions. Colleen Hoover
says she is now embarrassed to be associated with her
(03:52):
best selling novel It Ends with Us, following the legal
drama between the film stars Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni.
The book, published in twenty sixteen and adapted into a
movie in twenty twenty four, became a hit on TikTok
and inspired a sequel. Lively sued Baldoni for sexual harassment
and retaliation in December twenty twenty four, a case set
(04:14):
for trial in March twenty twenty six, which Hoover says
has overshadowed her work. I can't even recommend it anymore,
she said, also saying the controversy has affected her mother,
whose experiences inspired the story. Despite the setback, she says
she remains proud of the book, though less publicly, and
joked she might need therapy to cope with the fallout.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Thanks Charlie Next, Remembering Hannah Clark and the larger conversation
about domestic violence. A quick heads up, This episode deals
with accounts of domestic violence. Take care while listening. It
was February nineteen, twenty twenty, quiet Wednesday morning, when Hannah
(04:58):
Clark packed her three children, six year old Leah, four
year old Leana and three year old Trey into the
car at the school run in Brisbane's Camp Hill. As
she started the drive, her estrange husband, Rowan Baxter, ambushed them,
forced himself into the car carrying a petrol container, and
within minutes a horrifying scene unfolded. Baxter set the car alight. Hannah,
(05:22):
engulfed in flames, managed to escape the vehicle crying for help,
but her children could not be saved. Hannah later died
from her injuries in hospital that same day, her last
moments testifying to the violence. She had fought so hard
to escape. But this was not a tragedy that appeared
(05:44):
from nowhere. For months before that February morning, Hannah had
lived in fear after and during years of what friends
later described as suffocating control, Hannah made the brave decision
to leave Rowan in twenty nineteen, moving with her kids
back to her parents' home. She did everything she was
supposed to sought legal protection secure a domestic violence order,
(06:07):
although even with the order, Rowan found ways to breach
its terms. He kidnapped their daughter Leana on Boxing Date
twenty nineteen. The police were involved, but the stalking, threats
and breaches didn't stop. Go back even further to before
the separation, and the signs were already there. He surveiled her.
(06:30):
A coronial inquest concluded it's likely Rowan planted tracking devices
and recorded her movements. Once Hannah a national trampoline champion,
a warm mother, and a hopeful young woman building a family,
the years that followed saw her joy and agency chipped
away by coercive control, a form of domestic violence so
(06:53):
invisible to many but deeply destructive. Her final act was
not only one of survival, but of desperate love for
her children. Hannah Clark's story did not end on that
morning on Brisbane Street. It began years before in warning
signs that went unheeded, and continues today in the movement
(07:13):
for stronger action against domestic violence and coercive control in Australia.
And look, her story is not one told in isolation.
You've read the headlines, engaged with social media posts, maybe
even attended a march or a rally to end Australia's
domestic and family violence crisis, and yet the statistics show,
(07:34):
on average, one woman is killed every eight days by
an intimate partner. A coroner found there was nothing more
that could be done to prevent the murder of Hannah
and her children, But now, thanks to whistleblowers, family members,
advocates and journalism, we know that statement might not actually
be true. All this week The Guardian has been releasing
(07:55):
pieces of its Broken Trust series, a two years investigation
into alleged failures by the police and coroner's court in
domestic violence deaths in Queensland. Today we're joined by The
Guardians Queensland correspondent Ben Smeath, who has spent countless hours
with his team pouring over the final details of Hannah's
case and so many others like it. Ben, thanks for
(08:17):
joining us. A two year investigation has led to this week.
Do you want to tell us a bit about what
sparked this investigation for you and The Guardian?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah? I mean these were issues that I've been writing
about for a pretty significant amount of time, probably even
prior to the killings of Hannah Clarke. And her children.
I had been writing about issues with policing responses to
domestic and family violence, but it was two years ago
that this particular project kicked off, and the impetus for
it was the involvement of a couple of whistleblowers who
(08:50):
one who I had been speaking to for sometime prior,
but who had information about the way that Queensland investigated
domestic and family violence homicides or in some cases didn't
properly investigate those homicides.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Tell me abit about these whistleblowers, because obviously they are
integral to the stories you've been publishing, the work you've
been doing. Who are they and what is it they
actually contributed.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Kate Pasino, who's a former Queensland Police officer of twenty
years and well respected investigator during her time in police,
and one of the roles that she performed during her
time at police was within what's called the Domestic and
Family Violence Death Review Unit, and essentially it was her
job to go through reportable deaths that came into the
(09:37):
coroner's office investigate them for domestic and family violence links.
Sometimes these were deaths that were reported as suicides or
drug overdoses, but to kind of go through the background,
work out whether there was anything that should be looked
at in relation to domestic and family violence, and then
start requesting information in relation to those Her experience in
that role was really significant and had contact with a
(10:01):
lot of different cases that came across her desk. Our
other whistleblower is some one whose identity we're protecting. We're
referring to her as Elsie, and she worked within the
coronial system and had experience within the colonial system that
obviously was relevant to helping our reporting. And she made
some disclosures to the Crime and Corruption Commission about multiple
(10:21):
cases that she had some knowledge of or involvement with.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Why do you think Kate and Nelsie came forward and
really wanted to work with you?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Whistleblowing is the opposite of glamorous. There's certainly only risk
and pain for people who go through a whistleblowing process.
There's certainly nothing for them personally to gain from going
through it. In fact, they put careers and reputations at
risk by doing that. Fundamentally, both of those women saw
(10:54):
something and saw the way the system was working or
in fact was not working. They saw women's deaths that
were not being properly investigated, and they believed that people
needed to know what had really happened in these cases.
And I think one of the real drivers for them
was the fact that in many of these cases, the
(11:16):
family members of victims themselves did not know many pieces
of information about their loved ones and what had happened
to them. The cronial system really relies very heavily that
anyone who's sort of worked within it or has understanding
of the way it works is it relies upon families
(11:37):
pushing for more information, pushing for more investigations, and when
families people don't know what they don't know. And in
some of these cases, we've talked to families who weren't
even aware that there were problematic circumstances in the lead
up to their loved one's debts.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Why do you think that families of victims are sometimes
kept in the dark of all these details, Whether it
be intentionally or not, it is a good question.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I think we need to take a step back, and
I guess reflect on the fact that in more thanty
percent of Domesican family violence cases there is prior contact
with services and the police. These are effectively deaths in
police operation. Because you have situations where women have reached
(12:21):
out to police asking for help and then there has
been subsequently been a homicide. You have situations where there's
been significant service system contact, and in at least some
of these cases, we've this week published allegations, particularly from Kate,
who says that she was asked to withhold evidence from
(12:41):
the coroner that would have reflected poorly upon the Queensland
Police Service by more senior officers within the QPS, and
so obviously a very serious elyation. It's one that the
police have told us that they take very seriously. But
more broadly, when we talk about domestic and family violence
and in particularly homicides, we've kind of played around the
(13:04):
edges of the issues with it for some time. We've
had inquiries and task forces and inquests and everything else,
and for whatever reason, none of those processes have really
gotten to the heart of the failings that come before
these sorts of processes, and I think that was one
of the real drivers of our reporting was to say, well,
we have had all of these processes that are supposed
(13:25):
to make things better, they haven't made things better, So
what are we missing? This to me is something that
is missing. I'm not necessarily saying that what we've uncovered
is kind of a key to unlocking the breadth scope
of the domestic and family violence crisis, but absolutely there
is so much that we're missing.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I think you're right. When we talk about domestic
and family violence, and especially domestic and family violence that
results in a loss of life, we look and criticize
the perpetrators, which rightfully so. But then when we turn
to say, the processes that are designed to keep us safe,
there's maybe now more criticism or critical thinking around them.
(14:04):
You've obviously gone quite deep. And in the same instance,
you've spoken to a lot of those sort of institutions
like the police, for instance, what's their response been to
this reporting.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
The view of the police that was expressed by a
deputy commissioner we spoke to, we did a record an
interview with was essentially that even if you have a
perfect police response, sometimes you're not going to stop domestic
and family violent homicides. That's kind of contrary to the
view of experts on this. Experts say that domestic and
(14:36):
family violentce homicides are both predictable and preventable, particularly in
cases where there is prior system contact. We know, we
have checklists, we know how to recognize risk factors, we
know how to take protective action in different sorts of
circumstances that is designed to protect women. And what our reporting,
(14:59):
to my mind, has shown is not this happened, and
maybe we could have done something else, But absolutely what
we've focused on is saying, well, these were the risk factors.
These were the risk factors that, had there been a
proper response, would have been recognized in this case or
at this time, and that weren't. These are the processes
that may have put women at risk in certain circumstances.
(15:20):
This idea that continually comes back in coronial findings with
regard to domestic and family violence that nothing could have
been done. You know, maybe there were some processes that
went wrong or some missed opportunities to intervene, but that
nothing could have been done. This is something that we
see repeatedly in coronial findings and it is such a
concession of defeat when we have this crisis. We have
(15:45):
escalating numbers of domestic and family violence homicides, We have
any number of hidden homicides, the cases that are maybe
listed as suicides or drug overdoses, but where there's a
domestic and family violence context that hasn't properly been investigated.
I don't think that we as a community should we'd
(16:05):
be making that concession to simply say, well, we couldn't
have done anything more in any case, let alone ones
where we have very very clear evidence of policing and
system failure in the leader.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Well, Hannah Clark is, for lack of a better phrase,
one of the most high profile incidents of domestic violence
murder in recent years. And what you say there about
the line of well, there's nothing else that could have
been done to prevent this is something that does underscore
her case, as you've found out. Tell us a little
bit more about this particular case of Hannah Clark.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
It's a case that a lot of people will remember
Hannah Clark and her three children. Hannah had had sixteen
points of contact, not including ongoing text messaging with a
police officer in the lead up to her death. It
is a case that has led to legislative reforms in Queensland,
like we've criminalized coercive control in Queensland, largely inspired by
(17:00):
this case and the understanding of coercive control. That's come
out of this case and the campaigning around coercive control
that's been done by Hannah's parents, Sue and Lloyd in Queensland.
That understanding. It's changed the conversation. It's helped us to
identify coercive, controlling behaviors. But at the same time there
(17:22):
has perhaps been an impression about this case that that's
all that it involved was coercive and controlling behaviors and
not actual violence, actual things that would and should have
been recognized by police as having placed Hannah at a
very high risk, and actual policing failures in the lead
(17:42):
up to those deaths that should have been more thoroughly
dealt with, and that really I think set aside this
notion that in this case nothing more could have been done.
And what we know about what happened after Hannah died
was that there was a police investigation that commenced. The
purpose of that police investigation wasn't a who done it,
(18:04):
like we knew Rowan Baxter had killed Hannah and the children.
The purpose of that was to understand why, was to
go into some of the background, some of the drivers,
some of the things that had gone wrong in the
lead up and what we know that investigation did not
do in any way, shape or form, was to look
at the interactions with police. It's never been an internal
(18:25):
review done by police into their own actions prior to
that case. And that's significant because police are kind of,
in many ways the gatekeepers of information within their own
systems about their own contact with people. But what did
happen in the weeks after Hannah's death, in fact, two
days after her funeral, was that the police gave a
briefing to a coroner about where their investigation was going,
(18:50):
and that they questioned the veracity and motive of statements
that Hannah had made prior to her death, where she
had claimed she was a victim of domestic and family violence.
That has been interpreted by people we've spoken to as
a victim blaming type response to effectively turn the spotlight
on someone who had been murdered and question whether their
(19:12):
claims of being a victim of domestic and family violence
were true. I think is quite concerning, and it raises
more questions about that investigation and what happened subsequently.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Well, yeah, I mean, what does it say about these
systems and institutions that we're told are there to keep
us safe. We're told these are the steps you're supposed
to take. What does it say about them to the
broader community when that is how it's handled posthumously.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah. I have had this conversation with police officers in
the past in interviews where there had been a reluctance
to kind of acknowledge that there were problematic police responses.
I think largely because police were worried that that might
discourage people to come forward. In Queensland, we've had an
inquiry into police responses to domestic and family violence and
(19:59):
heard a number of different allegations of misogynistic and sexist
behavior within the Queensland Police, including responses to DFF. I
think we're beyond this point of saying, well, we shouldn't
talk about this because maybe someone might be reluctant to
come forward. What we know is that when a woman
does come forward, there is on some level a lottery
(20:20):
in terms of which police officers she might talk to
or which station she might go to. And I think
on some level it's something that people need to go
into with their eyes open.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
What happens now then, Ben, because you've done all this reporting,
it's the last two years of your life you've dedicated
to this with the team, it's hopefully to start a
conversation within those organizations. What sort of the next step
do you think, Because let's be real, like DV in
general is not a bygone thing. It's never going to
be a completely stammed out thing like a lot of
(20:50):
terrible stuff in this world. So what's the ideal of.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Course, Well, I mean what we need I think within
some of the systems that respond to DV is genuine
cultural change and not just attempt at system change. And
what I mean by that is that another training course
for police offices is not going to stop some of
the underlying attitudes that we know are held by some
police officers in relation to responses to domestic and family violence.
(21:14):
There is broader cultural change and that does take time.
There's certainly no suggestion that that's something that we can
waive a wand at and deal with overnight. There's a
statistic that sticks with me. It came from a Death
Review Board report in Queensland a couple of years ago
where they assessed all of the domestic and family violence
homicides on the books at that point and they looked
(21:36):
at what risk factors were present in those cases, there
are the ones that you would expect to be there,
things like strangulation, stalking, sexual violence. In roughly a quarter
of cases that led to homicide, there was one risk
factor that was present in the majority of cases, more
than half of the homicides that had occurred in Queensland,
and that was a victim's own intuitive sense of fear
(21:59):
that they would be killed. What that tells me is
that believing women is fundamentally the first and most important
thing that we can do to start to address some
of the problematic responses that people find and then starting
to address the domestic and family violence homicide crisis. If
we believe women in the first instance, then it will
(22:22):
go some way to improving those responses.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with
us today. If this conversation has raised any concerns for you,
help is always available. You can contact the National Domestic,
Family and Sexual Violence Counseling Service at one eight hundred
respect that's one eight hundred seven three seven seven three
to two. The Quiki is produced by me Taylor Strano,
(22:48):
Ilaria Brophy and Talie Blackman, with audio production by Lou Hill.
Momma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
You're listening to a Mumma mea podcast. Hey, I'm Taylor Strano.
This is Mumma MIA's twice daily news podcast, The Quickie.
Four hundred and thirty one. That's the number of women
who've died since Hannah Clark and her children were killed now.
(00:28):
That number comes via Scherrell Moody, founder of the Red
Heart Campaign and the Australian Femicide Watch, tracking the number
of women and children lost to violence. In cases of DV,
blame often lies with the victim, or solely on the perpetrator,
their poor mental health or troubled upbringing. But what about
a larger conversation about how these four hundred and thirty
(00:51):
one deaths and so many others could have been prevented?
This week, a new investigation, years in the making, starts
to pull at a thread of how he perceived it
V and who's supposed to keep us safe during those times?
Before we get there, He's Charlie Blackman with the latest
from the QUICKI newsroom for Friday, November twenty one.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Thanks Taylor, Ukraine and Russia have carried out another exchange
of soldiers' bodies. Ukraine says it has received one thousand bodies,
while Russia state media reports said that thirty were returned
to Russia. Ukraine's Prisoner of War Coordination Center says investigators
will now work to identify the remains and thanks to
the Red Cross for mediating. This is the fifteenth exchange
(01:35):
this year, and Ukraine says it has recovered more than
fifteen thousand bodies since the war began. Ukraine has long
accused Russia of returning bodies in poor condition or even
sending back Russian soldiers by mistake, which must go denies.
This exchange comes as fighting continues while more than four
hundred thousand Ukrainians remain without power after recent Russian attacks
(01:57):
damage key energy infrastructure. Nuclear plans have been forced to
cut output because of transmission line damage. Kelley Sloane is
set to become the new new South Wales Liberal leader
after Mark Speakman resigned under pressure, leaving the first term
MP as the only confirmed candidate. Ahead of Friday's party
room vote. Speakman acknowledged the statistical unlikelihood of his first
(02:21):
term opposition winning the twenty twenty seven state election, with
recent polls putting Labour ahead fifty nine to forty one
on a two party preferred basis. Election analysist Ben Rowe
says a new leader is unlikely to shift the numbers,
arguing the party's problems run deeper than Speakman's personal standing.
He says voters may be responding to broader issues, internal
(02:44):
divisions or the wider Liberal brand. The New South Wales
Liberals remain committed to net zero emissions by twenty fifty
in contrast to the federal coalition. Sloane, a former TV
news presenter elected in twenty twenty three, has been widely
viewed as the party's strongest option to take on Labour.
A public inquiry has delivered a damning assessment of the
(03:07):
UK's response to COVID nineteen, finding former Prime Minister Boris
Johnson oversaw a toxic, chaotic and slow system that contributed
to thousands of avoidable deaths. Inquiry chair had The Hallett
said the government failed to grasp the seriousness of the
virus early in twenty twenty, relying on false assurances that
the UK was prepared. She said Johnson was distracted by
(03:30):
other political priorities and did not provide the leadership needed
to inject urgency into the response. The report found that
the late lockdown on March twenty three resulted in about
twenty three thousand additional deaths during the first wave, and
delays later in the year triggered further restrictions. Colleen Hoover
says she is now embarrassed to be associated with her
(03:52):
best selling novel It Ends with Us, following the legal
drama between the film stars Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni.
The book, published in twenty sixteen and adapted into a
movie in twenty twenty four, became a hit on TikTok
and inspired a sequel. Lively sued Baldoni for sexual harassment
and retaliation in December twenty twenty four, a case set
(04:14):
for trial in March twenty twenty six, which Hoover says
has overshadowed her work. I can't even recommend it anymore,
she said, also saying the controversy has affected her mother,
whose experiences inspired the story. Despite the setback, she says
she remains proud of the book, though less publicly, and
joked she might need therapy to cope with the fallout.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Thanks Charlie Next, Remembering Hannah Clark and the larger conversation
about domestic violence. A quick heads up, This episode deals
with accounts of domestic violence. Take care while listening. It
was February nineteen, twenty twenty, quiet Wednesday morning, when Hannah
(04:58):
Clark packed her three children, six year old Leah, four
year old Leana and three year old Trey into the
car at the school run in Brisbane's Camp Hill. As
she started the drive, her estrange husband, Rowan Baxter, ambushed them,
forced himself into the car carrying a petrol container, and
within minutes a horrifying scene unfolded. Baxter set the car alight. Hannah,
(05:22):
engulfed in flames, managed to escape the vehicle crying for help,
but her children could not be saved. Hannah later died
from her injuries in hospital that same day, her last
moments testifying to the violence. She had fought so hard
to escape. But this was not a tragedy that appeared
(05:44):
from nowhere. For months before that February morning, Hannah had
lived in fear after and during years of what friends
later described as suffocating control, Hannah made the brave decision
to leave Rowan in twenty nineteen, moving with her kids
back to her parents' home. She did everything she was
supposed to sought legal protection secure a domestic violence order,
(06:07):
although even with the order, Rowan found ways to breach
its terms. He kidnapped their daughter Leana on Boxing Date
twenty nineteen. The police were involved, but the stalking, threats
and breaches didn't stop. Go back even further to before
the separation, and the signs were already there. He surveiled her.
(06:30):
A coronial inquest concluded it's likely Rowan planted tracking devices
and recorded her movements. Once Hannah a national trampoline champion,
a warm mother, and a hopeful young woman building a family,
the years that followed saw her joy and agency chipped
away by coercive control, a form of domestic violence so
(06:53):
invisible to many but deeply destructive. Her final act was
not only one of survival, but of desperate love for
her children. Hannah Clark's story did not end on that
morning on Brisbane Street. It began years before in warning
signs that went unheeded, and continues today in the movement
(07:13):
for stronger action against domestic violence and coercive control in Australia.
And look, her story is not one told in isolation.
You've read the headlines, engaged with social media posts, maybe
even attended a march or a rally to end Australia's
domestic and family violence crisis, and yet the statistics show,
(07:34):
on average, one woman is killed every eight days by
an intimate partner. A coroner found there was nothing more
that could be done to prevent the murder of Hannah
and her children, But now, thanks to whistleblowers, family members,
advocates and journalism, we know that statement might not actually
be true. All this week The Guardian has been releasing
(07:55):
pieces of its Broken Trust series, a two years investigation
into alleged failures by the police and coroner's court in
domestic violence deaths in Queensland. Today we're joined by The
Guardians Queensland correspondent Ben Smeath, who has spent countless hours
with his team pouring over the final details of Hannah's
case and so many others like it. Ben, thanks for
(08:17):
joining us. A two year investigation has led to this week.
Do you want to tell us a bit about what
sparked this investigation for you and The Guardian?
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Yeah? I mean these were issues that I've been writing
about for a pretty significant amount of time, probably even
prior to the killings of Hannah Clarke. And her children.
I had been writing about issues with policing responses to
domestic and family violence, but it was two years ago
that this particular project kicked off, and the impetus for
it was the involvement of a couple of whistleblowers who
(08:50):
one who I had been speaking to for sometime prior,
but who had information about the way that Queensland investigated
domestic and family violence homicides or in some cases didn't
properly investigate those homicides.
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Tell me abit about these whistleblowers, because obviously they are
integral to the stories you've been publishing, the work you've
been doing. Who are they and what is it they
actually contributed.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Kate Pasino, who's a former Queensland Police officer of twenty
years and well respected investigator during her time in police,
and one of the roles that she performed during her
time at police was within what's called the Domestic and
Family Violence Death Review Unit, and essentially it was her
job to go through reportable deaths that came into the
(09:37):
coroner's office investigate them for domestic and family violence links.
Sometimes these were deaths that were reported as suicides or
drug overdoses, but to kind of go through the background,
work out whether there was anything that should be looked
at in relation to domestic and family violence, and then
start requesting information in relation to those Her experience in
that role was really significant and had contact with a
(10:01):
lot of different cases that came across her desk. Our
other whistleblower is some one whose identity we're protecting. We're
referring to her as Elsie, and she worked within the
coronial system and had experience within the colonial system that
obviously was relevant to helping our reporting. And she made
some disclosures to the Crime and Corruption Commission about multiple
(10:21):
cases that she had some knowledge of or involvement with.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Why do you think Kate and Nelsie came forward and
really wanted to work with you?
Speaker 3 (10:30):
Whistleblowing is the opposite of glamorous. There's certainly only risk
and pain for people who go through a whistleblowing process.
There's certainly nothing for them personally to gain from going
through it. In fact, they put careers and reputations at
risk by doing that. Fundamentally, both of those women saw
(10:54):
something and saw the way the system was working or
in fact was not working. They saw women's deaths that
were not being properly investigated, and they believed that people
needed to know what had really happened in these cases.
And I think one of the real drivers for them
was the fact that in many of these cases, the
(11:16):
family members of victims themselves did not know many pieces
of information about their loved ones and what had happened
to them. The cronial system really relies very heavily that
anyone who's sort of worked within it or has understanding
of the way it works is it relies upon families
(11:37):
pushing for more information, pushing for more investigations, and when
families people don't know what they don't know. And in
some of these cases, we've talked to families who weren't
even aware that there were problematic circumstances in the lead
up to their loved one's debts.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Why do you think that families of victims are sometimes
kept in the dark of all these details, Whether it
be intentionally or not, it is a good question.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
I think we need to take a step back, and
I guess reflect on the fact that in more thanty
percent of Domesican family violence cases there is prior contact
with services and the police. These are effectively deaths in
police operation. Because you have situations where women have reached
(12:21):
out to police asking for help and then there has
been subsequently been a homicide. You have situations where there's
been significant service system contact, and in at least some
of these cases, we've this week published allegations, particularly from Kate,
who says that she was asked to withhold evidence from
(12:41):
the coroner that would have reflected poorly upon the Queensland
Police Service by more senior officers within the QPS, and
so obviously a very serious elyation. It's one that the
police have told us that they take very seriously. But
more broadly, when we talk about domestic and family violence
and in particularly homicides, we've kind of played around the
(13:04):
edges of the issues with it for some time. We've
had inquiries and task forces and inquests and everything else,
and for whatever reason, none of those processes have really
gotten to the heart of the failings that come before
these sorts of processes, and I think that was one
of the real drivers of our reporting was to say, well,
we have had all of these processes that are supposed
(13:25):
to make things better, they haven't made things better, So
what are we missing? This to me is something that
is missing. I'm not necessarily saying that what we've uncovered
is kind of a key to unlocking the breadth scope
of the domestic and family violence crisis, but absolutely there
is so much that we're missing.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
Yeah, I think you're right. When we talk about domestic
and family violence, and especially domestic and family violence that
results in a loss of life, we look and criticize
the perpetrators, which rightfully so. But then when we turn
to say, the processes that are designed to keep us safe,
there's maybe now more criticism or critical thinking around them.
(14:04):
You've obviously gone quite deep. And in the same instance,
you've spoken to a lot of those sort of institutions
like the police, for instance, what's their response been to
this reporting.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
The view of the police that was expressed by a
deputy commissioner we spoke to, we did a record an
interview with was essentially that even if you have a
perfect police response, sometimes you're not going to stop domestic
and family violent homicides. That's kind of contrary to the
view of experts on this. Experts say that domestic and
(14:36):
family violentce homicides are both predictable and preventable, particularly in
cases where there is prior system contact. We know, we
have checklists, we know how to recognize risk factors, we
know how to take protective action in different sorts of
circumstances that is designed to protect women. And what our reporting,
(14:59):
to my mind, has shown is not this happened, and
maybe we could have done something else, But absolutely what
we've focused on is saying, well, these were the risk factors.
These were the risk factors that, had there been a
proper response, would have been recognized in this case or
at this time, and that weren't. These are the processes
that may have put women at risk in certain circumstances.
(15:20):
This idea that continually comes back in coronial findings with
regard to domestic and family violence that nothing could have
been done. You know, maybe there were some processes that
went wrong or some missed opportunities to intervene, but that
nothing could have been done. This is something that we
see repeatedly in coronial findings and it is such a
concession of defeat when we have this crisis. We have
(15:45):
escalating numbers of domestic and family violence homicides, We have
any number of hidden homicides, the cases that are maybe
listed as suicides or drug overdoses, but where there's a
domestic and family violence context that hasn't properly been investigated.
I don't think that we as a community should we'd
(16:05):
be making that concession to simply say, well, we couldn't
have done anything more in any case, let alone ones
where we have very very clear evidence of policing and
system failure in the leader.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Well, Hannah Clark is, for lack of a better phrase,
one of the most high profile incidents of domestic violence
murder in recent years. And what you say there about
the line of well, there's nothing else that could have
been done to prevent this is something that does underscore
her case, as you've found out. Tell us a little
bit more about this particular case of Hannah Clark.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
It's a case that a lot of people will remember
Hannah Clark and her three children. Hannah had had sixteen
points of contact, not including ongoing text messaging with a
police officer in the lead up to her death. It
is a case that has led to legislative reforms in Queensland,
like we've criminalized coercive control in Queensland, largely inspired by
(17:00):
this case and the understanding of coercive control. That's come
out of this case and the campaigning around coercive control
that's been done by Hannah's parents, Sue and Lloyd in Queensland.
That understanding. It's changed the conversation. It's helped us to
identify coercive, controlling behaviors. But at the same time there
(17:22):
has perhaps been an impression about this case that that's
all that it involved was coercive and controlling behaviors and
not actual violence, actual things that would and should have
been recognized by police as having placed Hannah at a
very high risk, and actual policing failures in the lead
(17:42):
up to those deaths that should have been more thoroughly
dealt with, and that really I think set aside this
notion that in this case nothing more could have been done.
And what we know about what happened after Hannah died
was that there was a police investigation that commenced. The
purpose of that police investigation wasn't a who done it,
(18:04):
like we knew Rowan Baxter had killed Hannah and the children.
The purpose of that was to understand why, was to
go into some of the background, some of the drivers,
some of the things that had gone wrong in the
lead up and what we know that investigation did not
do in any way, shape or form, was to look
at the interactions with police. It's never been an internal
(18:25):
review done by police into their own actions prior to
that case. And that's significant because police are kind of,
in many ways the gatekeepers of information within their own
systems about their own contact with people. But what did
happen in the weeks after Hannah's death, in fact, two
days after her funeral, was that the police gave a
briefing to a coroner about where their investigation was going,
(18:50):
and that they questioned the veracity and motive of statements
that Hannah had made prior to her death, where she
had claimed she was a victim of domestic and family violence.
That has been interpreted by people we've spoken to as
a victim blaming type response to effectively turn the spotlight
on someone who had been murdered and question whether their
(19:12):
claims of being a victim of domestic and family violence
were true. I think is quite concerning, and it raises
more questions about that investigation and what happened subsequently.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Well, yeah, I mean, what does it say about these
systems and institutions that we're told are there to keep
us safe. We're told these are the steps you're supposed
to take. What does it say about them to the
broader community when that is how it's handled posthumously.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Yeah. I have had this conversation with police officers in
the past in interviews where there had been a reluctance
to kind of acknowledge that there were problematic police responses.
I think largely because police were worried that that might
discourage people to come forward. In Queensland, we've had an
inquiry into police responses to domestic and family violence and
(19:59):
heard a number of different allegations of misogynistic and sexist
behavior within the Queensland Police, including responses to DFF. I
think we're beyond this point of saying, well, we shouldn't
talk about this because maybe someone might be reluctant to
come forward. What we know is that when a woman
does come forward, there is on some level a lottery
(20:20):
in terms of which police officers she might talk to
or which station she might go to. And I think
on some level it's something that people need to go
into with their eyes open.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
What happens now then, Ben, because you've done all this reporting,
it's the last two years of your life you've dedicated
to this with the team, it's hopefully to start a
conversation within those organizations. What sort of the next step
do you think, Because let's be real, like DV in
general is not a bygone thing. It's never going to
be a completely stammed out thing like a lot of
(20:50):
terrible stuff in this world. So what's the ideal of.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Course, Well, I mean what we need I think within
some of the systems that respond to DV is genuine
cultural change and not just attempt at system change. And
what I mean by that is that another training course
for police offices is not going to stop some of
the underlying attitudes that we know are held by some
police officers in relation to responses to domestic and family violence.
(21:14):
There is broader cultural change and that does take time.
There's certainly no suggestion that that's something that we can
waive a wand at and deal with overnight. There's a
statistic that sticks with me. It came from a Death
Review Board report in Queensland a couple of years ago
where they assessed all of the domestic and family violence
homicides on the books at that point and they looked
(21:36):
at what risk factors were present in those cases, there
are the ones that you would expect to be there,
things like strangulation, stalking, sexual violence. In roughly a quarter
of cases that led to homicide, there was one risk
factor that was present in the majority of cases, more
than half of the homicides that had occurred in Queensland,
and that was a victim's own intuitive sense of fear
(21:59):
that they would be killed. What that tells me is
that believing women is fundamentally the first and most important
thing that we can do to start to address some
of the problematic responses that people find and then starting
to address the domestic and family violence homicide crisis. If
we believe women in the first instance, then it will
(22:22):
go some way to improving those responses.
Speaker 1 (22:28):
Thanks for taking some time to feed your mind with
us today. If this conversation has raised any concerns for you,
help is always available. You can contact the National Domestic,
Family and Sexual Violence Counseling Service at one eight hundred
respect that's one eight hundred seven three seven seven three
to two. The Quiki is produced by me Taylor Strano,
(22:48):
Ilaria Brophy and Talie Blackman, with audio production by Lou Hill.
Momma Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on.
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