February 10, 2026 • 28 mins
On today’s Bible Answer Man broadcast (02/10/26), Hank Hanegraaff interviews Joel Kramer with Living Hope Ministries, as they discuss the problems with the theological claims of the Book of Mormon.
Hank and Joel address the following comment:
When I read the Book of Mormon, it brings me closer to Christ as my Savior. Steve - Liberty Lake, WA (15:58)
Hank and Joel address the following comment:
When I read the Book of Mormon, it brings me closer to Christ as my Savior. Steve - Liberty Lake, WA (15:58)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
From Charlotte, North Carolina. You're listening to the Bible answer
Man broadcast with Hank Hanagraph, president of the Christian Research Institute.
The reason the Bible answer Man is on the air
is to defend the Christian faith, proclaim the Gospel of
our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and to teach discipleship
to his followers, because life and truth matter. For more
(00:30):
information or to order equipping resources, call eight eight eight
seven thousand CRII, which translates to eight eight eight seven
thousand two seven four, or go online to equip dot org.
That's equip dot org. The following program was pre recorded
(00:50):
and now here's your host, Hank Hanagraph.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you Randian. In the early eighteen hundreds eighteen twenty
three to be Ezac, the angel Moroni allegedly visited Mormon
prophet Joseph Smith and divulge the location of some golden
plates which contain the fullness of the Everlasting Gospel. The plates,
bridged by Moroni and his father Mormon fourteen hundred years earlier,
(01:15):
were written in reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics. Along with the plates,
Smith said he found a pair of magical eyeglasses that
he used to translate the cryptic writing into English. The result,
of course, was a new revelation called the Book of Mormon,
in a brand new religion called Mormonism. Now, how millions
(01:35):
can take the Book of Mormon seriously is almost beyond comprehension.
While Smith referred to the Book of Mormon as the
most correct of any book on earth in the Keystone
to our Religion, its flaws run the gamut from the
serious to the silly, and the category of sirius. The
Book of Mormon contains modalistic language that militates against the
(01:59):
biblical doctrine of the tree. And in the category of silly,
there's a man that struggles to catch his breath after
having his head cut off. While archaeology is a powerful
testimony to the accuracy of the Word of God, the
same cannot be said for the Book of Mormon. Not
(02:19):
only is there no archaeological evidence for a language such
as Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics, there is no archaeological support for
lands such as the land of Moron, which you find
in Ether seven six. Nor is there any archaeological evidence
to buttress the notion that Jeredites Nephites, Lamanites all migrated
(02:45):
from Israel to the Americas. On the contrary, both archaeology
and anthropology demonstrate conclusively that the people in places that
are chronicled in the Book of Mormon are little more
than the product of a fertile imagination. You know, Joseph
Smith asserted that the Golden Plates were translated by the
(03:09):
power of God and produced the most correct of any
book on Earth. And Joseph F. Smith, by the way,
the sixth President of the Mormon Church, went so far
as to say that the words were not only correct,
but that every letter was given to Joseph Smith by
the gift and power of God. But the reality is this,
the Book of Mormon has had to be corrected thousands
(03:31):
of times to compensate for Smith's poor grammar and spelling.
The Book of Mormon is fraught with all kinds of
other errors as well. For example, Benjamin was changed to
Messiah after Mormon leaders finally realized that in the chronology
of the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin had already died,
(03:52):
so he would have been hard pressed when interpret the
gravings mentioned it in Mosiah twenty one to eight. Little
wonders except the Book of Mormon based on an esoteric
feeling on a burning in the bosom, rather than on
history and evidence. Now, Mormons are not the enemy. Mormons
(04:13):
are trapped by the enemy. The real enemy is Mormonism.
And that's why today we have a guest on the
Bible entry Man Broadcast who can speak firsthand to the
countless men and women, to the boys and girls who
accept this false gospel. Not only so, but Joel Kramer,
(04:34):
as director of Living Hope Ministries, has produced these powerful
videos that compare the claims of Scripture and the claims
of the Book of Mormon. Not only that, but they've
come up with a really interesting DVD that demonstrates through
DNA evidence that the Book of Mormon, its details, descriptions,
(04:58):
and documentations simp could not be true. Joel, it's great
to have you on the Bible Inchment Broadcast.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Well, great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Joe, why do you care so much about the Mormon people?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Well, I mean, I guess with the people that I
work with here at the ministry, I guess you know,
the title that we'd be most comfortable with would be missionaries.
Were myself. You know, I never was a Mormon. But
we came here to live amongst the Mormon people and
to reach out to them and to try to reason
with them. And we have a great respect for the
(05:32):
Mormon people. We feel about them much of the Apostle
Paul did about his fellow Jews, and that is he
said of his fellow Jews that they had a lot
of zeal for God, but it's not based on knowledge.
And that's the way we believe about the Mormon people.
And so our heart for them, like you said earlier,
is to try to get them the true Gospel into
(05:54):
a relationship with the real Jesus, because they don't really
understand what they're missing, and we want that for them.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Joe. When you think about why a Mormon asks someone,
if they're in a missionary enterprise, they're going to ask
someone to accept the Book of Mormon based on a
burning in the bosom or a feeling, talk about the
difference between that and Christianity, where we actually tell people
don't accept the Bible on the basis of how you feel,
(06:22):
but accept it because it's rooted in history and evidence.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right, And that's really one of the main motivations why
we did our BVD, which is called the Bible versus
the Book of Mormon is to demonstrate just that, and
to try to show the Mormon people that all the
things that they have to turn a blind eye to
because the facts are against the reality of the Book
of Mormon being historical and being true, that the Bible
(06:47):
does not suffer those same things. The things that disqualify
the Book of Mormon as scripture do not disqualify the
Bible as scripture or as history. And so it's trying
to reason with them in the most broadest terms, the
most common sense ways that whereas with the Book of
Mormon the geography is missing and the people are missing
(07:08):
in the cities and the artifacts and the DNA, that
with the Bible, those aren't missing from the archaeological record
or from the DNA and so forth, And so we're
trying to reason with them at that most basic level
that faith should not be this completely blind faith and
unwillingness to reason at all.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Another DVD that you did titled DNA in the Book
of Mormon. I was thinking before the show, Joel that
in DNA evidence has taken a number of people who
are on death row from death row and vindicated them DNA.
Now quite the contrary with respect to the Book of
Mormon is putting Mormonism on death row.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Absolutely yeah. And you know, our role to play in
that is to go gather the information from credible source
and so to go and talk to the DNA scientists
that are doing the DNA testing on Native Americans, which
of course the Book of Mormon says their descendants from Lamanites,
of which are descended from the House of Israel. And
(08:13):
to go and talk to them about this, and to
go and talk to these people who don't have any
Christian agenda or Mormon agenda. They're just scientists doing the
DNA testing on Native Americans. And to ask them such
a question, as you know, is there any evidence that
it would show that Native Americans come from an israel ancestry.
(08:35):
I mean, it's really asking them completely and totally bizarre question.
And their response is just that because there's just no
evidence that has ever made them think that way or
consider such a possibility. And it is it's a completely
open and shut case. The Book of Mormon would never
(08:59):
be able to stand up in a court of law today.
It would be thrown out on the DNA evidence alone.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
So let's unpack that for just a second, because on
the one hand, we're saying that Mormons ask people to
accept the Book of Mormon not because all of the
evidence validates it, but rather because they have a feeling
that validates it. So how can you then use DNA
evidence to discredit the Book of Mormon Because they're not
looking at evidence anyway, That's not what they're basing their
(09:27):
faith on.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Right, Well, what they're basing their faith on is this feeling,
and it comes from I mean, it comes from their
only choice. I mean, their only choice is to base
it on feelings, on emotions, because there isn't any evidence.
I mean, so if they're going to believe it, they're
not going to study the evidence and then come to
believe in the Book of Mormon. Their only chance to
(09:48):
hold on to a faith in the Book of Mormon
is to ignore the evidence and rely on feelings. And so,
but you know, what we try to do is say
that that's not a valid way to determine what is
true and what is not, and therefore the honest thing
to do is look at the evidence and see if
it supports you know, a claimed ancient text as being
(10:11):
ancient and as being a reliable history or not. And
so we deal with with Mormons on that level, because
when you deal with them on a doctrinal level, oftentimes
you get caught in this loop because they're taught that
the Bible has lost all this plain and precious portions,
as the Book of Mormon says and as Joseph Smith taught,
(10:33):
and that it has become corrupted. And therefore when you
bring up a doctrine with them, oftentimes they'll say, oh, well,
that was lost out of the Bible and has now
been restored through Joseph Smith and our scripture. And so
you know, you end up in this circular line of reasoning.
At least with the evidence, you can say, you know,
let's reason together. Let's look at what the Bible does
(10:55):
have to that shows that it's historical, and what the
Book of Mormon does not.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Talking to Joe Kramer, he is on the front lines
of missions reaching out to Mormons with the truth of
the Gospel. And we'll be right back with more of
the Bible Lanesman broadcast. Please don't touch that dial.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
To find out more about the materials mentioned on the show,
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(11:37):
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Speaker 4 (12:01):
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Speaker 2 (15:10):
Again I'm with Joel Kramer. He's director of Living Hope
Ministries and the two DVDs that his organization has produced,
DNA and the Book of Mormon and the Bible versus
the Book of Mormon. Two DVDs you're going to want
for your library. One groundbreaking evidence DNA versus The Book
of Mormon demonstrates that the Book of Mormon simply is false.
(15:33):
But beyond that, you have the Book of Mormon in
the Bible being contrasted on another DVD, and you will
find out that the evidence in the manuscripts or archaeology
demonstrate that the Bible to be true and the Book
of Mormon is not true. These are DVDs that will
equip you to reach out to a mission field on
(15:54):
your very own doorstep. We're going to open the phone lines.
Talk to Steven Liberty Washington high stave your un with Joel.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
I think you know I am LDS, and you know,
I guess when I read the Book of Mormon, and
I can't say that there aren't problems with it, or
that some of the issues you have may not have
their proponents. And certainly, as LDS people, we have our
arguments and such. But when I read the Book of Mormon,
it brings me to Christ. When I was nineteen years old,
(16:24):
I remember reading that book and realizing that Jesus Christ
was my savior and that was the only way I
was going to be able to return to heaven. And
over the years I have put those tests, you know,
over and over again about praying about that. And you know,
I'm a physician and I've spent thirteen years going to school,
(16:46):
but every answer that I need to help my patience
is not in a book somewhere. And there have been
times in the same way that I have approached thought
about the Book of Mormon, that I have been enlightened
about something to help somebody else with the same kind
of thought and intelligence. Okay, so maybe that's not perfect,
(17:06):
but the Book of Armon is full of information about
Jesus and it makes me want to follow him. And
I think listening to these programs sometimes, you know, you
don't get Dietea that the Book of Armony actually does
talk about anything that would be uplifting or bring people
to Christ. We just talk about, you know, podshots about
why we think this didn't happen or that didn't happen.
And I realize you have your arguments, and I realized
(17:29):
some of them are valid and that they're you know,
you have points. I would say that I have points also,
But how do you answer that question right?
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And I appreciate what you're saying, Steve, But what I
would say about that really is the LDS faith isn't
really the place of doctrine. It's the historical account of
this migration to the Americas and then Christ's appearance to
these Hebrew remnants that populated the Americas, and so it's
a story that is claimed to be historically. The problem
(18:01):
is with this story of Jesus appearing to these people
in the Americas is that the people don't exist. So
DNA clearly shows that, the archaeology clearly shows that. And
if the people didn't exist, then how could Christ appear
to them? And so what the Book of Mormon. The
evidence against the Book of Mormon shows that that's not historical.
(18:21):
The visitation of Jesus Christ of the Americas. Now, the
doctrines in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of
Great Christ with the doctrine show is that the Jesus
Christ of Mormonism doctrinally by nature is not the same
as the Jesus Christ of the Bible. And that's where
the problem comes in.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
But your point, Steve, I think is even if it's
not true, it's still edifying to you. Right.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Well, I obviously have some disagreements about whether you know
all your arguments are avalid, but because I do believe
it's true, but I do believe, well, take on.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
The arguments, though, Steve, I mean, here's your opportunity.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
Well, you know, I guess I would just the Mormons
have their own site, and a lot of it is
a spiritual side. We feel like, you know, spiritually we
the Lord has brought us some information and has restored
some truth. And you know that really enlightens my life.
It makes it easier to raise my children, It makes
it easier to be a good person. And I asked
(19:18):
the DNA expert, a guy that does research on my
dicondrial DNA at Vanderbilt University. I sat with him at a
medical conference and I said, let's say that we followed
this group of people over. Let's say that this happened
and then the intermarried within some people around them. Would
we be able to trace their DNA today? Is that
something that we can actually test? But I said there,
(19:39):
I talked to them for a better an hour and
he said, well, by and large, evidence of this show
that American Indians come from from Asian type of DNA.
But he said, whether you could actually trace a group
of people that would have moved over to this content
and then followed them is probably not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
If you look at the civilis, which supposedly is in
the Americas. It's the size of the Roman Empire. It
seems to me that that has to affect the indigenous
people in terms of DNA in some way. If you
had a small group, maybe no, But if you have
a civilization the size of the Roman civilization, there has
(20:20):
to be some DNA impact. Is that right?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, there does. And Steve brought up that he'd talked
to a scientist about that who said that that the
DNA comes from Asia. And what I would, you know,
want to encourage you, Steve to do, is is to
seek out the truth of who Jesus Christ is. Jesseph
Smith said that the Book of Mormon is the keystone
(20:45):
to your religion and so whether it's true or not
is very very important. And one thing that I would
encourage you to do is if you will seek out
this DNA issue in regards to the Book of Mormon
people within your own religion, within Mormon, and what you'll
find is you'll find that your own religion is divided
on this issue. And if you go to your leadership
(21:07):
anywhere from some of the key leaders of Mormonism to
your bishop and what missionaries teach. When they're out, you'll
find that they teach that what they've been teaching for
one hundred and seventy five years, and they'll uphold Joseph
Smith and that all of the Americas, including the Pacific Islands,
were populated by Hebrews. But if you go to BYU
(21:28):
scientists and scholars and places like apologists Mormon apologists, you'll
find a totally different story. And they're denying that one
hundred and seventy five years of teaching, and they're going
to what's called a limited geography, and they're shrinking everything
down and saying that it must have happened in this
tiny little place that can't be detected. And the reason
(21:49):
why there's that division is because of the DNA evidence.
And I would encourage you to go and seek out
both those. Go read what your scholars are saying, Go
read what that your leadership is saying over the DNA issue,
because it's crucial. If the Book of Mormon is the
keystone to your religion, then it's crucial that you know
(22:10):
whether it's true. It's crucial whether you know whether Jesus
Christ really visited the Americas, because you need to know
the real Jesus Christ, and as the Bible says, there
are false Jesus Christ, as Jesus said in Matthew twenty four.
And so it's very important for you to understand those things.
And I would encourage you to seek the truth out
on the matter.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Well, I you know, I actually have, and I you
know I do. I've actually done some DNA research, and
I you know, I've met Tom Murphy. I sat by
him at a conference once I am and I talked
to him a little bit. I don't believe the guy
who believes in God. Maybe he does. I don't want
to put words into his mouth, but he also believes
that DNA evidence shows that evolution can shape the earth
(22:54):
and that you know, these migrations of people were maybe
fifty thousand years ago, and depending on what you leave
the timeline and the Bible is be any works both
or and against you. I mean, you can find d
any evidence if you want that supports the evolution. And
you know, in older humanity than what we're seeing in
migrational patterns that are different than what maybe the Bible teachers.
(23:16):
You know, there are people who do that. I think
that the d ANY evidence, you know, and I think
this is where evandelical Christians fall down sometimes is that
they sometimes will use secular criticisms against the Book of
Mormon by people who don't believe in God and would
not support their version of Christianity or religion anymore than
they would Mormonism.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
But we're talking about truth here. In other words, all
truth is God's truth, isn't it, Steve?
Speaker 5 (23:43):
I believe that, so I do.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
The point here is if an atheist or anybody else
can verify or give you truth that's rooted in history
and evidence. For example, the kind of truth that is
depicted in the DVDs with respect to supposedly two million
Jeradites that are slain in battle in Ether chapter fifteen,
(24:08):
there's got to be some trace of that somewhere. Or
if you look at the kind of coinage that has
talked about in the Book of Mormon, or if you
talk about horses existing in the Americas prior to Columbus coming,
or chariots that are described in the Book of Worm,
on and on it goes, there's got to be something
there that's validated, and you find exactly the opposite. And
(24:31):
that's what we're trying to set forth now. Conversely, if
you look at the Bible, history and evidence points to
the truth of the Bible. So if you look at
the details, documentation, and description that you have in the Bible,
with every turn of the archaeologist spade, you have more
and more evidence that cooperates exactly what the Bible says
(24:53):
in exactly the same way that the Bible says it.
And that's what we're really talking about. Archaeology supports the Bible,
but does not support the Book of Mormon, and the
same thing is true with manuscript evidence and the like.
We do appreciate your call so much, Steve, unfortunately out
of time for this edition of the biblel Inceman Podcast,
But do remember that it was Joseph Smith, the founder
(25:13):
of Mormonism, who claimed that all existing churches were wrong,
all their creeds were an abomination, all their professors were corrupt,
and according to Joseph Smith, he was chosen to restore,
not to reform, but to restore a church that had
disappeared from the face of the earth. The Mormon doctrines
(25:34):
that have evolved from the vision of Joseph Smith have
a completely different Jesus, a completely different way of salvation
and ultimately a completely different test for truth. We test
all things in light of Scripture, hold fast that which
is good. Mormonism does not believe that scripture is the
(25:56):
final court of arbitration, but that the Book of Mormon
is the most direct of any book on earth. Therein
lies the problem, and that's why we're recommending the DVDs.
Thanks again for tuning in. We'll be back tomorrow with
more of Joel Kramer and Mormonism.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Thank you for joining us for the Bible answer Man Broadcast.
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(26:37):
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Speaker 4 (27:01):
Hank Hannagraph has dedicated his life to defending truth because
truth matters. However, his life and ministry were radically transformed
by another three word phrase, Life matters more. Truth matters
because Christianity is rooted in history and evidence. Life matters
more because it is the experience of union with God.
The goal of Christian life is union with God. All
(27:24):
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(27:47):
thousand CRI and make a gift to support the Christian
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From Charlotte, North Carolina. You're listening to the Bible answer
Man broadcast with Hank Hanagraph, president of the Christian Research Institute.
The reason the Bible answer Man is on the air
is to defend the Christian faith, proclaim the Gospel of
our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and to teach discipleship
to his followers, because life and truth matter. For more
(00:30):
information or to order equipping resources, call eight eight eight
seven thousand CRII, which translates to eight eight eight seven
thousand two seven four, or go online to equip dot org.
That's equip dot org. The following program was pre recorded
(00:50):
and now here's your host, Hank Hanagraph.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Thank you Randian. In the early eighteen hundreds eighteen twenty
three to be Ezac, the angel Moroni allegedly visited Mormon
prophet Joseph Smith and divulge the location of some golden
plates which contain the fullness of the Everlasting Gospel. The plates,
bridged by Moroni and his father Mormon fourteen hundred years earlier,
(01:15):
were written in reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics. Along with the plates,
Smith said he found a pair of magical eyeglasses that
he used to translate the cryptic writing into English. The result,
of course, was a new revelation called the Book of Mormon,
in a brand new religion called Mormonism. Now, how millions
(01:35):
can take the Book of Mormon seriously is almost beyond comprehension.
While Smith referred to the Book of Mormon as the
most correct of any book on earth in the Keystone
to our Religion, its flaws run the gamut from the
serious to the silly, and the category of sirius. The
Book of Mormon contains modalistic language that militates against the
(01:59):
biblical doctrine of the tree. And in the category of silly,
there's a man that struggles to catch his breath after
having his head cut off. While archaeology is a powerful
testimony to the accuracy of the Word of God, the
same cannot be said for the Book of Mormon. Not
(02:19):
only is there no archaeological evidence for a language such
as Reformed Egyptian hieroglyphics, there is no archaeological support for
lands such as the land of Moron, which you find
in Ether seven six. Nor is there any archaeological evidence
to buttress the notion that Jeredites Nephites, Lamanites all migrated
(02:45):
from Israel to the Americas. On the contrary, both archaeology
and anthropology demonstrate conclusively that the people in places that
are chronicled in the Book of Mormon are little more
than the product of a fertile imagination. You know, Joseph
Smith asserted that the Golden Plates were translated by the
(03:09):
power of God and produced the most correct of any
book on Earth. And Joseph F. Smith, by the way,
the sixth President of the Mormon Church, went so far
as to say that the words were not only correct,
but that every letter was given to Joseph Smith by
the gift and power of God. But the reality is this,
the Book of Mormon has had to be corrected thousands
(03:31):
of times to compensate for Smith's poor grammar and spelling.
The Book of Mormon is fraught with all kinds of
other errors as well. For example, Benjamin was changed to
Messiah after Mormon leaders finally realized that in the chronology
of the Book of Mormon, King Benjamin had already died,
(03:52):
so he would have been hard pressed when interpret the
gravings mentioned it in Mosiah twenty one to eight. Little
wonders except the Book of Mormon based on an esoteric
feeling on a burning in the bosom, rather than on
history and evidence. Now, Mormons are not the enemy. Mormons
(04:13):
are trapped by the enemy. The real enemy is Mormonism.
And that's why today we have a guest on the
Bible entry Man Broadcast who can speak firsthand to the
countless men and women, to the boys and girls who
accept this false gospel. Not only so, but Joel Kramer,
(04:34):
as director of Living Hope Ministries, has produced these powerful
videos that compare the claims of Scripture and the claims
of the Book of Mormon. Not only that, but they've
come up with a really interesting DVD that demonstrates through
DNA evidence that the Book of Mormon, its details, descriptions,
(04:58):
and documentations simp could not be true. Joel, it's great
to have you on the Bible Inchment Broadcast.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Well, great to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Joe, why do you care so much about the Mormon people?
Speaker 3 (05:10):
Well, I mean, I guess with the people that I
work with here at the ministry, I guess you know,
the title that we'd be most comfortable with would be missionaries.
Were myself. You know, I never was a Mormon. But
we came here to live amongst the Mormon people and
to reach out to them and to try to reason
with them. And we have a great respect for the
(05:32):
Mormon people. We feel about them much of the Apostle
Paul did about his fellow Jews, and that is he
said of his fellow Jews that they had a lot
of zeal for God, but it's not based on knowledge.
And that's the way we believe about the Mormon people.
And so our heart for them, like you said earlier,
is to try to get them the true Gospel into
(05:54):
a relationship with the real Jesus, because they don't really
understand what they're missing, and we want that for them.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
Joe. When you think about why a Mormon asks someone,
if they're in a missionary enterprise, they're going to ask
someone to accept the Book of Mormon based on a
burning in the bosom or a feeling, talk about the
difference between that and Christianity, where we actually tell people
don't accept the Bible on the basis of how you feel,
(06:22):
but accept it because it's rooted in history and evidence.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Right, And that's really one of the main motivations why
we did our BVD, which is called the Bible versus
the Book of Mormon is to demonstrate just that, and
to try to show the Mormon people that all the
things that they have to turn a blind eye to
because the facts are against the reality of the Book
of Mormon being historical and being true, that the Bible
(06:47):
does not suffer those same things. The things that disqualify
the Book of Mormon as scripture do not disqualify the
Bible as scripture or as history. And so it's trying
to reason with them in the most broadest terms, the
most common sense ways that whereas with the Book of
Mormon the geography is missing and the people are missing
(07:08):
in the cities and the artifacts and the DNA, that
with the Bible, those aren't missing from the archaeological record
or from the DNA and so forth, And so we're
trying to reason with them at that most basic level
that faith should not be this completely blind faith and
unwillingness to reason at all.
Speaker 2 (07:29):
Another DVD that you did titled DNA in the Book
of Mormon. I was thinking before the show, Joel that
in DNA evidence has taken a number of people who
are on death row from death row and vindicated them DNA.
Now quite the contrary with respect to the Book of
Mormon is putting Mormonism on death row.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
Absolutely yeah. And you know, our role to play in
that is to go gather the information from credible source
and so to go and talk to the DNA scientists
that are doing the DNA testing on Native Americans, which
of course the Book of Mormon says their descendants from Lamanites,
of which are descended from the House of Israel. And
(08:13):
to go and talk to them about this, and to
go and talk to these people who don't have any
Christian agenda or Mormon agenda. They're just scientists doing the
DNA testing on Native Americans. And to ask them such
a question, as you know, is there any evidence that
it would show that Native Americans come from an israel ancestry.
(08:35):
I mean, it's really asking them completely and totally bizarre question.
And their response is just that because there's just no
evidence that has ever made them think that way or
consider such a possibility. And it is it's a completely
open and shut case. The Book of Mormon would never
(08:59):
be able to stand up in a court of law today.
It would be thrown out on the DNA evidence alone.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
So let's unpack that for just a second, because on
the one hand, we're saying that Mormons ask people to
accept the Book of Mormon not because all of the
evidence validates it, but rather because they have a feeling
that validates it. So how can you then use DNA
evidence to discredit the Book of Mormon Because they're not
looking at evidence anyway, That's not what they're basing their
(09:27):
faith on.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Right, Well, what they're basing their faith on is this feeling,
and it comes from I mean, it comes from their
only choice. I mean, their only choice is to base
it on feelings, on emotions, because there isn't any evidence.
I mean, so if they're going to believe it, they're
not going to study the evidence and then come to
believe in the Book of Mormon. Their only chance to
(09:48):
hold on to a faith in the Book of Mormon
is to ignore the evidence and rely on feelings. And so,
but you know, what we try to do is say
that that's not a valid way to determine what is
true and what is not, and therefore the honest thing
to do is look at the evidence and see if
it supports you know, a claimed ancient text as being
(10:11):
ancient and as being a reliable history or not. And
so we deal with with Mormons on that level, because
when you deal with them on a doctrinal level, oftentimes
you get caught in this loop because they're taught that
the Bible has lost all this plain and precious portions,
as the Book of Mormon says and as Joseph Smith taught,
(10:33):
and that it has become corrupted. And therefore when you
bring up a doctrine with them, oftentimes they'll say, oh, well,
that was lost out of the Bible and has now
been restored through Joseph Smith and our scripture. And so
you know, you end up in this circular line of reasoning.
At least with the evidence, you can say, you know,
let's reason together. Let's look at what the Bible does
(10:55):
have to that shows that it's historical, and what the
Book of Mormon does not.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Talking to Joe Kramer, he is on the front lines
of missions reaching out to Mormons with the truth of
the Gospel. And we'll be right back with more of
the Bible Lanesman broadcast. Please don't touch that dial.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
To find out more about the materials mentioned on the show,
call a CRII resource consultant toll free at eight eight
eight seven thousand cri that's eight eight eight seven thousand CRII.
Our website is also an excellent reference destination to help you,
just go to equip dot org and find articles by Hank, books,
(11:37):
CDs and DVDs. Again, that's equip dot org or write
CRII PO Box eighty five hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina, ZIP
two eight two seven one. The Bible answer Man will
continue in just a moment.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Hank Hanigraph has dedicated his life to defending truth Because
Truth Matters. Yet, an encounter with Christians in the Underground
Church of China left Hanograph contemplating his Christian experience. They
were experiencing something beyond truth. They were experiencing life. Truth matters.
Life matters More by Hank Hanigraph is two books in one.
Because Truth Matters. Part one equips Christians to defend the
(12:25):
essential truths of the historic Christian faith. In Part two,
Hank explains why life matters more and how we can
experience the height of human existence union with God. Prepare
to move past intellectually knowing about God to experientially knowing
God in Christ. To receive your copy of Truth Matters
life matters more the unexpected beauty of an authentic Christian
(12:46):
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at equipped dot org.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
The number of wolves surrounding the Christian flock is growing,
and they relish nothing more than docile's sheep, utterly incapable
of defending themselves from militant secularists at home to militant
Islamists abroad. The assaults on Biblical Christianity are growing dangerously,
but Christian Research Institutes Support Team members aren't in favor
(13:22):
of feeding these wolves. Instead, each day they're making possible
an array of outreaches that defang these wolfpacks with solid
arguments and evidence that have stood the test of time.
What's more, Support Team members are equipping themselves with criis
equipping Essentials, a handpicked collection of the best apologetics tools around.
(13:43):
Your selection of resources are just our way of saying thanks.
To learn more about the benefits of membership, simply visit
equip dot org. Once again, that's equip dot org. Has
(14:05):
God spoken? Are the words of Scripture merely human in origin,
or are they, in fact the very words of God himself.
Three years in the making and based on two decades
of research and reflection, Hank Henagraph's monumental book Has God
Spoken answers what is surely the most important question facing
(14:26):
our world. In Has God Spoken, memorable proofs of the
Bible's divine inspiration, Hank counters the contentions of the Bible
attackers and clearly shows that belief in the Holy Scriptures
is not a guess or wishful thinking. It is the
only logical conclusion after an honest examination of overwhelming evidence.
Order Has God Spoken? From the Christian Research Institute by
(14:50):
calling eighty eight seven thousand CRII or go online to
equip dot org. Equip dot Org. Once again here is
hand catagraph and.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
Again I'm with Joel Kramer. He's director of Living Hope
Ministries and the two DVDs that his organization has produced,
DNA and the Book of Mormon and the Bible versus
the Book of Mormon. Two DVDs you're going to want
for your library. One groundbreaking evidence DNA versus The Book
of Mormon demonstrates that the Book of Mormon simply is false.
(15:33):
But beyond that, you have the Book of Mormon in
the Bible being contrasted on another DVD, and you will
find out that the evidence in the manuscripts or archaeology
demonstrate that the Bible to be true and the Book
of Mormon is not true. These are DVDs that will
equip you to reach out to a mission field on
(15:54):
your very own doorstep. We're going to open the phone lines.
Talk to Steven Liberty Washington high stave your un with Joel.
Speaker 5 (16:03):
I think you know I am LDS, and you know,
I guess when I read the Book of Mormon, and
I can't say that there aren't problems with it, or
that some of the issues you have may not have
their proponents. And certainly, as LDS people, we have our
arguments and such. But when I read the Book of Mormon,
it brings me to Christ. When I was nineteen years old,
(16:24):
I remember reading that book and realizing that Jesus Christ
was my savior and that was the only way I
was going to be able to return to heaven. And
over the years I have put those tests, you know,
over and over again about praying about that. And you know,
I'm a physician and I've spent thirteen years going to school,
(16:46):
but every answer that I need to help my patience
is not in a book somewhere. And there have been
times in the same way that I have approached thought
about the Book of Mormon, that I have been enlightened
about something to help somebody else with the same kind
of thought and intelligence. Okay, so maybe that's not perfect,
(17:06):
but the Book of Armon is full of information about
Jesus and it makes me want to follow him. And
I think listening to these programs sometimes, you know, you
don't get Dietea that the Book of Armony actually does
talk about anything that would be uplifting or bring people
to Christ. We just talk about, you know, podshots about
why we think this didn't happen or that didn't happen.
And I realize you have your arguments, and I realized
(17:29):
some of them are valid and that they're you know,
you have points. I would say that I have points also,
But how do you answer that question right?
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And I appreciate what you're saying, Steve, But what I
would say about that really is the LDS faith isn't
really the place of doctrine. It's the historical account of
this migration to the Americas and then Christ's appearance to
these Hebrew remnants that populated the Americas, and so it's
a story that is claimed to be historically. The problem
(18:01):
is with this story of Jesus appearing to these people
in the Americas is that the people don't exist. So
DNA clearly shows that, the archaeology clearly shows that. And
if the people didn't exist, then how could Christ appear
to them? And so what the Book of Mormon. The
evidence against the Book of Mormon shows that that's not historical.
(18:21):
The visitation of Jesus Christ of the Americas. Now, the
doctrines in the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of
Great Christ with the doctrine show is that the Jesus
Christ of Mormonism doctrinally by nature is not the same
as the Jesus Christ of the Bible. And that's where
the problem comes in.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
But your point, Steve, I think is even if it's
not true, it's still edifying to you. Right.
Speaker 5 (18:45):
Well, I obviously have some disagreements about whether you know
all your arguments are avalid, but because I do believe
it's true, but I do believe, well, take on.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
The arguments, though, Steve, I mean, here's your opportunity.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
Well, you know, I guess I would just the Mormons
have their own site, and a lot of it is
a spiritual side. We feel like, you know, spiritually we
the Lord has brought us some information and has restored
some truth. And you know that really enlightens my life.
It makes it easier to raise my children, It makes
it easier to be a good person. And I asked
(19:18):
the DNA expert, a guy that does research on my
dicondrial DNA at Vanderbilt University. I sat with him at a
medical conference and I said, let's say that we followed
this group of people over. Let's say that this happened
and then the intermarried within some people around them. Would
we be able to trace their DNA today? Is that
something that we can actually test? But I said there,
(19:39):
I talked to them for a better an hour and
he said, well, by and large, evidence of this show
that American Indians come from from Asian type of DNA.
But he said, whether you could actually trace a group
of people that would have moved over to this content
and then followed them is probably not going to happen.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
If you look at the civilis, which supposedly is in
the Americas. It's the size of the Roman Empire. It
seems to me that that has to affect the indigenous
people in terms of DNA in some way. If you
had a small group, maybe no, But if you have
a civilization the size of the Roman civilization, there has
(20:20):
to be some DNA impact. Is that right?
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, there does. And Steve brought up that he'd talked
to a scientist about that who said that that the
DNA comes from Asia. And what I would, you know,
want to encourage you, Steve to do, is is to
seek out the truth of who Jesus Christ is. Jesseph
Smith said that the Book of Mormon is the keystone
(20:45):
to your religion and so whether it's true or not
is very very important. And one thing that I would
encourage you to do is if you will seek out
this DNA issue in regards to the Book of Mormon
people within your own religion, within Mormon, and what you'll
find is you'll find that your own religion is divided
on this issue. And if you go to your leadership
(21:07):
anywhere from some of the key leaders of Mormonism to
your bishop and what missionaries teach. When they're out, you'll
find that they teach that what they've been teaching for
one hundred and seventy five years, and they'll uphold Joseph
Smith and that all of the Americas, including the Pacific Islands,
were populated by Hebrews. But if you go to BYU
(21:28):
scientists and scholars and places like apologists Mormon apologists, you'll
find a totally different story. And they're denying that one
hundred and seventy five years of teaching, and they're going
to what's called a limited geography, and they're shrinking everything
down and saying that it must have happened in this
tiny little place that can't be detected. And the reason
(21:49):
why there's that division is because of the DNA evidence.
And I would encourage you to go and seek out
both those. Go read what your scholars are saying, Go
read what that your leadership is saying over the DNA issue,
because it's crucial. If the Book of Mormon is the
keystone to your religion, then it's crucial that you know
(22:10):
whether it's true. It's crucial whether you know whether Jesus
Christ really visited the Americas, because you need to know
the real Jesus Christ, and as the Bible says, there
are false Jesus Christ, as Jesus said in Matthew twenty four.
And so it's very important for you to understand those things.
And I would encourage you to seek the truth out
on the matter.
Speaker 5 (22:31):
Well, I you know, I actually have, and I you
know I do. I've actually done some DNA research, and
I you know, I've met Tom Murphy. I sat by
him at a conference once I am and I talked
to him a little bit. I don't believe the guy
who believes in God. Maybe he does. I don't want
to put words into his mouth, but he also believes
that DNA evidence shows that evolution can shape the earth
(22:54):
and that you know, these migrations of people were maybe
fifty thousand years ago, and depending on what you leave
the timeline and the Bible is be any works both
or and against you. I mean, you can find d
any evidence if you want that supports the evolution. And
you know, in older humanity than what we're seeing in
migrational patterns that are different than what maybe the Bible teachers.
(23:16):
You know, there are people who do that. I think
that the d ANY evidence, you know, and I think
this is where evandelical Christians fall down sometimes is that
they sometimes will use secular criticisms against the Book of
Mormon by people who don't believe in God and would
not support their version of Christianity or religion anymore than
they would Mormonism.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
But we're talking about truth here. In other words, all
truth is God's truth, isn't it, Steve?
Speaker 5 (23:43):
I believe that, so I do.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
The point here is if an atheist or anybody else
can verify or give you truth that's rooted in history
and evidence. For example, the kind of truth that is
depicted in the DVDs with respect to supposedly two million
Jeradites that are slain in battle in Ether chapter fifteen,
(24:08):
there's got to be some trace of that somewhere. Or
if you look at the kind of coinage that has
talked about in the Book of Mormon, or if you
talk about horses existing in the Americas prior to Columbus coming,
or chariots that are described in the Book of Worm,
on and on it goes, there's got to be something
there that's validated, and you find exactly the opposite. And
(24:31):
that's what we're trying to set forth now. Conversely, if
you look at the Bible, history and evidence points to
the truth of the Bible. So if you look at
the details, documentation, and description that you have in the Bible,
with every turn of the archaeologist spade, you have more
and more evidence that cooperates exactly what the Bible says
(24:53):
in exactly the same way that the Bible says it.
And that's what we're really talking about. Archaeology supports the Bible,
but does not support the Book of Mormon, and the
same thing is true with manuscript evidence and the like.
We do appreciate your call so much, Steve, unfortunately out
of time for this edition of the biblel Inceman Podcast,
But do remember that it was Joseph Smith, the founder
(25:13):
of Mormonism, who claimed that all existing churches were wrong,
all their creeds were an abomination, all their professors were corrupt,
and according to Joseph Smith, he was chosen to restore,
not to reform, but to restore a church that had
disappeared from the face of the earth. The Mormon doctrines
(25:34):
that have evolved from the vision of Joseph Smith have
a completely different Jesus, a completely different way of salvation
and ultimately a completely different test for truth. We test
all things in light of Scripture, hold fast that which
is good. Mormonism does not believe that scripture is the
(25:56):
final court of arbitration, but that the Book of Mormon
is the most direct of any book on earth. Therein
lies the problem, and that's why we're recommending the DVDs.
Thanks again for tuning in. We'll be back tomorrow with
more of Joel Kramer and Mormonism.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Thank you for joining us for the Bible answer Man Broadcast.
If you'd like more information about the Christian Research Institute
or to order resources, just call eight eight eight seven
thousand CRII. That's eight eight eight seven thousand, two seven four,
or visit equip dot org, where you can listen live
or download archived broadcast. Again, that's equip dot org. You
(26:37):
can also write to us at Post Office box eighty
five hundred, Charlotte, North Carolina, zip code two eight two
seven one. The Bible answer Man Broadcast is supported by
listeners like you. We're on the air because life and
truth matter.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Hank Hannagraph has dedicated his life to defending truth because
truth matters. However, his life and ministry were radically transformed
by another three word phrase, Life matters more. Truth matters
because Christianity is rooted in history and evidence. Life matters
more because it is the experience of union with God.
The goal of Christian life is union with God. All
(27:24):
attempts to understand Christianity from a solely rational perspective put
us in danger of devolving into a transactional rather than
transformational relationship with God. Truth Matters, Life Matters More will
equip you to move beyond intellectually knowing about God to
experientially knowing Him in Christ. To receive your copy of
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(27:47):
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