February 11, 2026 • 28 mins
On today’s Bible Answer Man broadcast (02/11/26), Hank continues the interview with Joel Kramer of Living Hope Ministries on the problems with the theological claims of the Book of Mormon.
Hank and Joel also answer the following questions and comments:
Since there are lots of scientific problems with the Old Testament, why do you ignore that and only look at the problems with the Book of Mormon? Nick - Pittsburgh, PA (7:17)
All I hear you say is to go to man for answers. As a Mormon, we read the Book of Mormon and the Bible, and pray to Heavenly Father for answers. Tim - Las Vegas, NV (18:04)
DNA testing is a good idea. Were DNA tests done on Native South Americans? Jay - ME (23:43)
Hank and Joel also answer the following questions and comments:
Since there are lots of scientific problems with the Old Testament, why do you ignore that and only look at the problems with the Book of Mormon? Nick - Pittsburgh, PA (7:17)
All I hear you say is to go to man for answers. As a Mormon, we read the Book of Mormon and the Bible, and pray to Heavenly Father for answers. Tim - Las Vegas, NV (18:04)
DNA testing is a good idea. Were DNA tests done on Native South Americans? Jay - ME (23:43)
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Broadcasting across the United States, Canada, and around the world.
This is the Bible answer Man Broadcast. Your host for
the program is Hank Canagraph, president of the Christian Research Institute.
We're on the air because life and truth matter. For
more information resources or to donate to CRI, call eight
(00:29):
eight eight seven thousand CRI, or go online to equip
dot org. That's equip dot org. The following program was
pre recorded to start today's Bible answer Man broadcast. Here's
your host, Hank Canagraph.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
And day two of my interview with Joel Kramer. He
is on the front lines of missions. He's a director
of Living Hope Ministries and he's reaching out to Mormons
with gentleness and with three But Joel believes that truth
corresponds to reality and as a result, he has along
(01:07):
with his organization, produced some great products, DNA and the
Book of Mormon, and they simply do not correspond. DNA
demonstrates that the details, descriptions, and documentation that you find
in the Book of Mormon is simply false. So DNA
versus the Book of Mormon is DVD number one, and
then we also have the Bible versus the Book of
(01:29):
Mormon again a DVD that will equip you to reach
out to Mormon's with gentleness and with respect. Joel, good
to have you back for day two.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, thank you good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Give us a quick overview once again as you did
yesterday of the two DVDs on how these DVDs can
equip them not only to reach a mission field on
their own doorstep, but really equipped them to understand why
they believe what they believe.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah, and that's our goal. Our goal is to equip
Christians with useful and effective tools that will equip them
to be able to go to the Mormons that they know.
And we have that Mormon audience in mind in making
these DVDs that they can share this information with them
and that will serve for them as a tool in
their witness of the Gospel to those Mormon people. And
(02:15):
basically what we've done is we've addressed the Book of Mormon, because,
as Mormons believe, as Joseph Smith taught, is the keystone
of their religion and it's according to them, it's a
historical accounting of what happened in the Americas. And so
we address that historocity and we did it both in
the first DVD with DNA, because that history says that
(02:38):
Hebrews populated the Americas. DNA clearly shows that they did not,
that the ancestors of Native Americans came from Asia. And
then we also did it in a comparison to the
Bible and the Book of Mormon in archaeology and linguistics
and textable criticism, to steer people in the opposite direction
of what they've been taught as Mormons. They've been taught
that the Bible is unreliable and that there's scripture is
(03:00):
what's reliable and is a restoration of what's missing from
the Bible and corrupted in the Bible. And what we're
trying to show is that's not the case. Nothing's missing
from the Bible. The manuscript evidence clearly shows that the
one that has the problems is the Mormon scripture. And
to steer them to trust in the Bible alone, something
that the Book of Mormon says.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Is foolish talk for a moment about the Mormon view
of salvation, because so often you hear Mormons say, I
believe in Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus Christ arose
from the dead, I believe I'm saved through Jesus Christ,
but their system of salvation and what they are saved
to in terms of quote unquote the heavens is vastly
(03:40):
different from the Christian view of salvation and what the
afterlife is.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Right, it's a lot of the same terminology, it's a
lot of the same names, but completely different concepts behind them.
And basically it all boiled down to that. Mormonism believes that,
as you said earlier, that man can become a God,
and there's a series of exaltations that man goes through,
(04:06):
both prior to their mortal life, during their mortal life,
and then in their post mortal life. All these exaltations,
this eternal progression that they go through, and all these
things that they learn in the temple, rituals and such
that will enable them to eventually reach Godhood and of
(04:27):
course becoming a God or the thought that man can
become a God, or that's why Satan got kicked out
of heaven in the first place, is that he thought
he could be like the most high God, and then
he was cast down to the earth. And then he
deceived even to eating the fruit, promising her that she
could be like God. And it's the original sin of heaven.
(04:48):
It's the original sin in the garden, and it's a
complete opposite of what the Bible teaches that through Jesus Christ,
we can be with God for eternity.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And there are different heavens and Mormonism that we should
describe as well.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Right, Yeah, there's three different levels of heaven. The celestial
is the highest heaven that you can reach Godhood in.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
And then you have the celestial and the terrestrial heavens
as well.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, and you have also after death, you have paradise,
and you have spirit prison. And so they do baptisms
for the dead in their temples. We see here in
Utah quite often in the newspaper that the Jewish community
is upset because they've been doing baptisms for dead Jews,
because Jews keep their genealogy so well, and they're quite
(05:35):
upset about it. And the reason that they're doing that
is because they believe if you die without being a
faithful Mormon, then you go to spirit prison, and then
if Mormons will baptize you for the dead, then you
can move into paradise and you can continue then on
this progression into one of the three levels.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Of heaven and let's summarize that quickly. Because Christians believe
that they're going to stand before God dressed in the
spotless robes of the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It's the righteousness not of verrone that comes from the law,
but that which is through faith in Christ. But Mormons
contend that they're going to appear before heavenly Father dressed
(06:13):
in fig leaf aprons, holding good works in their hands.
In fact, according to the Latter day Saints, virtually everyone
qualifies for heaven. You have murderers, unrepentant hormongers, the world's
vilest people who make it into the telestial heaven. Then
you have lukewarm Mormons, religious people and those who accept
(06:37):
the Mormon Gospel and the spirit world typically enter the
terrestrial heaven. And as you said, the temple Mormons make
it to the celestial heaven, and only those who are
sealed in secret temple rituals will make it to the
third level of the celestial Kingdom and then become gods
of their own planet. So you have all kinds of
doctrinal perversions which disqualify Christianity and Moreanism as being in
(07:02):
some way harmonious and demonstrate that there's a divide between
the two that can never be bridged with mere Roderick
We're feelings. Again, the DVDs are proof positive. They're great tools.
A lot of people hanging on want to talk to Joel.
Will go right to the phone lines. Nick and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Hi, Nick, Hi,
(07:22):
your question for Joel?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Well, my question was I wanted to know, since there
are a lot of scientific problems, let's say, with the
Old Testament, aside from archaeology in the age of the
yearth and evolution, how is it that he doesn't look
at that scientifically, but yet he's ready to discredit the
(07:51):
Book of Mormon based solely on current scientific evidence.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Okay, And before Joel answers that question, let me just
point out to our audience that is a dogmatic assertion,
not a defensible argument. And ultimately that's what we want
to produce as Christians, is defensible arguments.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Joe, Yeah, you know, what you're talking about is a
completely different issue. You're talking about evolution versus creationism, or
evolution versus intelligent design, and it's a very important issue.
It's a very crucial issue, and it's one that I'm
interested in, But it has nothing to do with the
issue that we're addressing in the DVDs, or with the
(08:27):
Book of Mormon, or with ministry to Mormons in Brigham City.
What we are involved in, and that issue is very different.
It's not an evolution creation issue. It is an issue
of is the history that is claimed in the Book
of Mormon true or not? And that has to do
with because it says that Native Americans are related to Israel.
(08:50):
It just simply has to do with going to living populations.
There's living populations of Native Americans, there's living populations of Asians,
there's living populations of Middle Easterners, and they're all being
DNA tested and they can very clearly, very easily see
who is more closely related to each other. And so
the reason that I don't bring up evolution and creation
(09:13):
issues in the DVDs that we do is because that's
not the issue that we're addressing at all.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And the DNA evidence points against the Book of Mormon.
The DNA evidence actually is a validation of the Christian faith.
You have irreducible complexity and biological systems that ultimately points
to the fact that there has to be a intelligent
designer that created the universe, and that's the whole point.
(09:40):
But again, we don't want to make dogmatic assertions. We
always want to make defensible arguments. So it's one thing
to say, well, the Bible's false, but that's a assertion.
You have to give some kind of defense. If you
want to make some kind of assertion such as the
Bible is false, how is it false then? Because for
years I've had people question me on the Bible answer
(10:01):
Man broadcast about apparent contradictions, and I demonstrate that they
are just that they're apparent contradictions. They're not contradictions in
reality because there's a good explanation if you search for it.
You cannot say the same thing about the Book of Mormon.
The more you search, the worse it gets. And that's
why the DVDs to equip you to be able to
(10:21):
demonstrate the truth of scripture and the falsity of the
Mormon faith. Again, these DVDs are not used as a
defense against Mormons, but a defense against Mormonism. We want
to reach Mormons with the truth of the Gospel, the
real Jesus Christ, who only can save us from our sins.
(10:44):
Do remember this is a listener supported radio when you
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Speaker 1 (11:03):
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(15:07):
Now back to the Bible answer Man Broadcast and your
host and Canigraph.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And again a quick reminder that we have two great
DVDs that will equip you not only to be able
to reach the Mormon mission field on your own doorstep,
but also equip you to be so familiar with truth
that when a counterfeit looms on the horizon, you know
it instantaneously. These DVDs point out the abundance of evidence
supporting people, places, and events in the Bible, but they
(15:34):
also expose the complete lack of evidence for claims that
are made in the Book of Mormon. The contrast is
obvious to Mormon anthropologist doctor Thomas Murphy, as we hear
in this clip of Murphy from the DNA versus the
Book of Mormon DVD.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
When we compare the Book of Mormon and the Bible,
especially when we deal with themes like archaeology, there are
some stark differences. There are specific battles, events, people named
in the Bible, places named in the Bible that we
know from external sources. That is, external sources validate that
these people existed, that these conflicts existed, that they're where
(16:17):
in fact places like Jerusalem, that Israelites are in fact
real people that are validated by these external sources outside
of the Bible. But with the Book of Mormon, we
don't have a single not one source from ancient America
outside of the Book of Mormon validating a single place,
a single person, a single event.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
And again that's doctor Murphy who's a Mormon anthropologist and
scholar at Edmund's Community College in Lynnwood, Washington. Of course,
that's I think the real issue here at hand. The
Bible is the gold standard for historical facticity, but the
Book of Mormon simply does not correspond to reality.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And as a point that was brought up earlier the Bible.
As far as the DNA issues go, there's lots of
evidence there that supports the Bible. For example, there's been
what's called a CO and Y chromosome study that was
done in the Jewish priestly line, and they studied the
white chromosomes that were passed down from father to son,
father to son to see if since the tradition of
(17:24):
the priestly line was happening from father to son. Therefore
the DNA should should show that, and that was found
to be the case. And then they had a tribe
called the Limba in South Africa who claimed they look
like other South African tribes, but they claimed that they
had come from a Jewish tradition, and not only that,
but a priestly Jewish tradition. And so they sent DNA
(17:48):
testers down there and they tested them. It's sure enough,
the CO and Y chromosome shows up in their DNA
in a high percentage. And so they were brought into
officially brought into the Jewish community.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So again the Bible corresponds to reality. The Book of
Mormon does not want to go back to the phone lines.
We'll talk to Tim in Las Vegas, Nevada. You're on
with Joel Kramer.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Hi.
Speaker 6 (18:09):
Tim, Yeah, my biggest problem I'm LDS. And when I
listen to your show and we were talking about today,
everything I hear you say is go de mand for
your answers, Go to Man for your answers. If you
have questions, go to science, ask your neighbor. You know,
whenever you get the missionary to come, what do they
tell you to do? They don't tell you to. They
(18:31):
tell you to read the Book of Mormon, or read
the Bible and pray and ask Heavenly Father, and Heavily
Father would give you an answers.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
But that's not what we're saying. Jim, you're putting words
in my mouth. Certainly, if you've listened to the program
for any period of time, I always say, test all
things in light of scripture, hold fast to that which
is good. In other words, the scriptures are the final
court of arbitration. You test all things in light of scripture.
That's what I say on the broadcast.
Speaker 6 (19:00):
You interpret them, No, not as.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
I interpret them?
Speaker 6 (19:05):
Well, no, I've listened.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
No, No, this is absolutely false. I don't say as
I interpret them. I say that there are rules to
biblical interpretation. You need to learn the art and science
of reading the Bible. For all, it's worth reading it
in the sense in which it's intended, not just interpreted
in any old way you want to. That's when you
(19:26):
get into trouble. But we're talking here about factual evidence.
Speaker 6 (19:30):
Here's the point the nineteen hundred different denominations of Christian churches,
because it's all on man's interpretation. That's why Heavenly Father
brought another prophet, Joseph Smith, to correct man. Man has
made mistakes, just like man has done through the whole Bible,
the whole history of the Bible. God would get man online,
(19:51):
give them a prophet, get them online, and slowly but
surely man starts messing it up.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Let's talk about that for just a moment. Joe. Here
you have the assertion that the Bible really can't be
trusted because it's the Bible in the way that you
want to interpret it, and that the Book of Mormon
is the most correct of any book on earth and
it's the key star to the Mormon religion. But we're
saying exactly the opposite. We're saying that the Bible can
(20:19):
be trusted because every time you test the Bible in
light of evidence, you find out that what the Bible
says is actually factual. And let me give you an
example of that.
Speaker 6 (20:30):
You agree with every Christian denomination.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Out there, well, becauseminations the Christian denominations. Here's what we're
talking about, and I want Jola answer this question, but
let me just give a precursor to it. When we're
talking about differences in Christianity, we're talking about differences when
it comes to non essentials. In other words, we always
say in non essentials there has to be liberty, but
(20:54):
in essentials there has to be unity. So, for example,
when we talk about the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe
he's the one who spoke and the universe leapt into existence,
and we don't believe that through blind faith, but through
faith and evidence. Conversely, we deny that Jesus Christ is
the spirit brother of Lucifer, and we deny that based
(21:16):
on the extent evidence.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Joel, Yeah, you know what you have with in Christianity
is you have a belief in the Bible alone as
God's word. What you have in Mormonism, what the Book
of Mormon, is a belief that the Book of Mormon
is God's word. So what you can do, and both
of them in the text itself claims to be a
history that really happened in life on earth. So what
(21:42):
you can do is you can put both of them
to that historical test and determine which one is what
it claims to be in God's word and which one
is man's making up. Because what you'll find and the
one that has man's fingerprints is that it'll get facts wrong.
It'll get all these things that man can't possibly know
(22:03):
everything that's going on. And so you find all these mistakes,
You find things changing over time, you find doctrines changing
and whatnot. And so when you put the Bible to
that test, you find that the doctrine of the nature
of God and the nature of man and how man
can be with God does not change. Throughout scripture. You
find that the historical reality that it portrays, the people existed,
(22:25):
the places existed, the cities existed, the artifacts exist. But
when you're looking at the Book of Mormon and you
put it to the historical test, it clearly shows that
it was a work of man, of Joseph Smith, and
therefore it is susceptible to the things that he was
ignorant of and that he didn't know, and he makes
mistakes in it, and it clearly proves out to be
(22:47):
one the word of Man in the Book of Mormon,
and the other the word of God in the Bible.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
And I think one of the best known New Testament
examples concerns the Book of Luke and X. Biblical skeptics
Sir William Ramsey, who was trained as an archaeologist and
then set out to disprove the historical reliability of the
New Testament through the eyes of Luke, and as through
his painstaking Mediterranean archaeological trips becomes converted as one after another,
(23:17):
the historical illusions of Luke are proved accurate. So, as
I said earlier, with every turn of the archaeologist's spade,
we continue to see evidence for the trustworthiness of scripture.
The reason that we're providing these DVDs is because exactly
the opposite is true with respect to the Book of Mormon.
It simply is not cooperated through archaeology. And that's the
(23:41):
point of the DVDs. Back to the phone lines, Jay
in Maine Uron with my guest hij Hi.
Speaker 7 (23:49):
I was listening when Steve was talking for him. Yeah,
and the DNA testing, I think is a real great idea.
I actually was a Roman Catholic who looked into Mormonism,
was actually baptized, and you know I I wanted to
believe it was the South American Indians. So were the
DNA tests done on those guys?
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah, there's been a hundred and fifty different tribes that
have been tested all the way from South America all
the way up you know, through North America and all
of them show the same result that their ancestry comes
out of Southeast Asia.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
I kind of thought they would, cause I'd just like
to say to Steve and some other people Roman Catholic
then Mormon. John said in the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And that's what Mormons really need to hear and think
about a lot before you start realizing that you're not
(24:44):
ever gonna be God. And one thing that really got
me when I was a Mormon was when somebody said,
uh that Jesus said God is a spirit. No man
has seen the Father, the Son declares him. So you know,
for whatever it is, I've been there and done that,
and Mormonism is not the way.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Thanks Jay and Joel respond to that, because I think
the point here that Jay makes is an important point.
Virtually every single theological heresy begins with the misconception of
the nature of God.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, that's correct. I mean, if people don't understand that
Mormonism is not Christian based upon that one teaching alone,
that man can become God, you know, that's polythesim, the
belief in many gods. It's I mean, really how different
from Christianity can you get to that?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And again, our guest today has been Joel Kramer. He's
director of Living Hope Ministries. They've produced two wonderful DVDs,
DNA versus The Book of Mormon and The Bible versus
the Book of Mormon. Remember, ultimately, we want to become
so familiar with the truth that when a counterfeit looms
on the horizon, you know it instantaneously. And you want
(25:57):
to be able to communicate what you communicate with gentleness
and with respect. Thanks for tuning in. We'll look forward
to seeing you on the next edition of the biblinch
Man Broadcast. Along for now.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
You've been listening to the Bible answer Man Broadcast with
Hank hanagraph. To learn more about Hank or the Christian
Research Institute, just go to equip dot org. Equip dot
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(26:29):
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The Bible answer Man Broadcast is supported by listeners like you.
(26:50):
We're on the air because life and truth matter. The
Complete Bible answer Book Collector's Edition is the comprehensive collection
of the most often asked questions Hank Hannigraph has received
throughout his four decades as host of The Bible answer
(27:12):
Man Broadcast. With more than half a million copies already
in print, this newly revised and expanded Collector's Edition helped
seekers and skeptics alike sort through the truth on topics
such as reliability of the Bible, religions and cults, the
resurrection and afterlife, and many more issues vital to a
better understanding of God in Christ and our relationship to Him.
(27:36):
To receive your copy of the Complete Bible answer Book
Collector's Edition, Revised and Expanded, call eight eight eight seven
thousand CRII and make a gift to support the Christian
Research Institute's life changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand
CRII or visit us at EQUIP dot org.
Broadcasting across the United States, Canada, and around the world.
This is the Bible answer Man Broadcast. Your host for
the program is Hank Canagraph, president of the Christian Research Institute.
We're on the air because life and truth matter. For
more information resources or to donate to CRI, call eight
(00:29):
eight eight seven thousand CRI, or go online to equip
dot org. That's equip dot org. The following program was
pre recorded to start today's Bible answer Man broadcast. Here's
your host, Hank Canagraph.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
And day two of my interview with Joel Kramer. He
is on the front lines of missions. He's a director
of Living Hope Ministries and he's reaching out to Mormons
with gentleness and with three But Joel believes that truth
corresponds to reality and as a result, he has along
(01:07):
with his organization, produced some great products, DNA and the
Book of Mormon, and they simply do not correspond. DNA
demonstrates that the details, descriptions, and documentation that you find
in the Book of Mormon is simply false. So DNA
versus the Book of Mormon is DVD number one, and
then we also have the Bible versus the Book of
(01:29):
Mormon again a DVD that will equip you to reach
out to Mormon's with gentleness and with respect. Joel, good
to have you back for day two.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Well, thank you good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Give us a quick overview once again as you did
yesterday of the two DVDs on how these DVDs can
equip them not only to reach a mission field on
their own doorstep, but really equipped them to understand why
they believe what they believe.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah, and that's our goal. Our goal is to equip
Christians with useful and effective tools that will equip them
to be able to go to the Mormons that they know.
And we have that Mormon audience in mind in making
these DVDs that they can share this information with them
and that will serve for them as a tool in
their witness of the Gospel to those Mormon people. And
(02:15):
basically what we've done is we've addressed the Book of Mormon, because,
as Mormons believe, as Joseph Smith taught, is the keystone
of their religion and it's according to them, it's a
historical accounting of what happened in the Americas. And so
we address that historocity and we did it both in
the first DVD with DNA, because that history says that
(02:38):
Hebrews populated the Americas. DNA clearly shows that they did not,
that the ancestors of Native Americans came from Asia. And
then we also did it in a comparison to the
Bible and the Book of Mormon in archaeology and linguistics
and textable criticism, to steer people in the opposite direction
of what they've been taught as Mormons. They've been taught
that the Bible is unreliable and that there's scripture is
(03:00):
what's reliable and is a restoration of what's missing from
the Bible and corrupted in the Bible. And what we're
trying to show is that's not the case. Nothing's missing
from the Bible. The manuscript evidence clearly shows that the
one that has the problems is the Mormon scripture. And
to steer them to trust in the Bible alone, something
that the Book of Mormon says.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Is foolish talk for a moment about the Mormon view
of salvation, because so often you hear Mormons say, I
believe in Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus Christ arose
from the dead, I believe I'm saved through Jesus Christ,
but their system of salvation and what they are saved
to in terms of quote unquote the heavens is vastly
(03:40):
different from the Christian view of salvation and what the
afterlife is.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Right, it's a lot of the same terminology, it's a
lot of the same names, but completely different concepts behind them.
And basically it all boiled down to that. Mormonism believes that,
as you said earlier, that man can become a God,
and there's a series of exaltations that man goes through,
(04:06):
both prior to their mortal life, during their mortal life,
and then in their post mortal life. All these exaltations,
this eternal progression that they go through, and all these
things that they learn in the temple, rituals and such
that will enable them to eventually reach Godhood and of
(04:27):
course becoming a God or the thought that man can
become a God, or that's why Satan got kicked out
of heaven in the first place, is that he thought
he could be like the most high God, and then
he was cast down to the earth. And then he
deceived even to eating the fruit, promising her that she
could be like God. And it's the original sin of heaven.
(04:48):
It's the original sin in the garden, and it's a
complete opposite of what the Bible teaches that through Jesus Christ,
we can be with God for eternity.
Speaker 2 (04:58):
And there are different heavens and Mormonism that we should
describe as well.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
Right, Yeah, there's three different levels of heaven. The celestial
is the highest heaven that you can reach Godhood in.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
And then you have the celestial and the terrestrial heavens
as well.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Yeah, and you have also after death, you have paradise,
and you have spirit prison. And so they do baptisms
for the dead in their temples. We see here in
Utah quite often in the newspaper that the Jewish community
is upset because they've been doing baptisms for dead Jews,
because Jews keep their genealogy so well, and they're quite
(05:35):
upset about it. And the reason that they're doing that
is because they believe if you die without being a
faithful Mormon, then you go to spirit prison, and then
if Mormons will baptize you for the dead, then you
can move into paradise and you can continue then on
this progression into one of the three levels.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
Of heaven and let's summarize that quickly. Because Christians believe
that they're going to stand before God dressed in the
spotless robes of the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.
It's the righteousness not of verrone that comes from the law,
but that which is through faith in Christ. But Mormons
contend that they're going to appear before heavenly Father dressed
(06:13):
in fig leaf aprons, holding good works in their hands.
In fact, according to the Latter day Saints, virtually everyone
qualifies for heaven. You have murderers, unrepentant hormongers, the world's
vilest people who make it into the telestial heaven. Then
you have lukewarm Mormons, religious people and those who accept
(06:37):
the Mormon Gospel and the spirit world typically enter the
terrestrial heaven. And as you said, the temple Mormons make
it to the celestial heaven, and only those who are
sealed in secret temple rituals will make it to the
third level of the celestial Kingdom and then become gods
of their own planet. So you have all kinds of
doctrinal perversions which disqualify Christianity and Moreanism as being in
(07:02):
some way harmonious and demonstrate that there's a divide between
the two that can never be bridged with mere Roderick
We're feelings. Again, the DVDs are proof positive. They're great tools.
A lot of people hanging on want to talk to Joel.
Will go right to the phone lines. Nick and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Hi, Nick, Hi,
(07:22):
your question for Joel?
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Well, my question was I wanted to know, since there
are a lot of scientific problems, let's say, with the
Old Testament, aside from archaeology in the age of the
yearth and evolution, how is it that he doesn't look
at that scientifically, but yet he's ready to discredit the
(07:51):
Book of Mormon based solely on current scientific evidence.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
Okay, And before Joel answers that question, let me just
point out to our audience that is a dogmatic assertion,
not a defensible argument. And ultimately that's what we want
to produce as Christians, is defensible arguments.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Joe, Yeah, you know, what you're talking about is a
completely different issue. You're talking about evolution versus creationism, or
evolution versus intelligent design, and it's a very important issue.
It's a very crucial issue, and it's one that I'm
interested in, But it has nothing to do with the
issue that we're addressing in the DVDs, or with the
(08:27):
Book of Mormon, or with ministry to Mormons in Brigham City.
What we are involved in, and that issue is very different.
It's not an evolution creation issue. It is an issue
of is the history that is claimed in the Book
of Mormon true or not? And that has to do
with because it says that Native Americans are related to Israel.
(08:50):
It just simply has to do with going to living populations.
There's living populations of Native Americans, there's living populations of Asians,
there's living populations of Middle Easterners, and they're all being
DNA tested and they can very clearly, very easily see
who is more closely related to each other. And so
the reason that I don't bring up evolution and creation
(09:13):
issues in the DVDs that we do is because that's
not the issue that we're addressing at all.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
And the DNA evidence points against the Book of Mormon.
The DNA evidence actually is a validation of the Christian faith.
You have irreducible complexity and biological systems that ultimately points
to the fact that there has to be a intelligent
designer that created the universe, and that's the whole point.
(09:40):
But again, we don't want to make dogmatic assertions. We
always want to make defensible arguments. So it's one thing
to say, well, the Bible's false, but that's a assertion.
You have to give some kind of defense. If you
want to make some kind of assertion such as the
Bible is false, how is it false then? Because for
years I've had people question me on the Bible answer
(10:01):
Man broadcast about apparent contradictions, and I demonstrate that they
are just that they're apparent contradictions. They're not contradictions in
reality because there's a good explanation if you search for it.
You cannot say the same thing about the Book of Mormon.
The more you search, the worse it gets. And that's
why the DVDs to equip you to be able to
(10:21):
demonstrate the truth of scripture and the falsity of the
Mormon faith. Again, these DVDs are not used as a
defense against Mormons, but a defense against Mormonism. We want
to reach Mormons with the truth of the Gospel, the
real Jesus Christ, who only can save us from our sins.
(10:44):
Do remember this is a listener supported radio when you
people to stand with us, prayerfully and financially. If you
like the Ring of truth, please stand with us. You
can do that again online at equipp dot orger again
when you call our resource consultant a triple eight seven
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Kramer and more of the viblance Men broadcast.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
The famous British apologist G. K. Chesterton once noted, the
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Because at CRII we love what is behind us, our faith,
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(11:48):
dot org. Stay with us. Hank Canigraph will return in
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Hank Hannigraph has received throughout his four decades as host
(12:11):
of the Bible answer Man broadcast. With more than half
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the truth on topics such as reliability of the Bible,
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(12:34):
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(12:55):
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(13:16):
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(13:36):
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an honest examination of overwhelming evidence. Ordered Has God Spoken?
From the Christian Research Institute by calling eighty eight seven
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(13:57):
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(15:07):
Now back to the Bible answer Man Broadcast and your
host and Canigraph.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
And again a quick reminder that we have two great
DVDs that will equip you not only to be able
to reach the Mormon mission field on your own doorstep,
but also equip you to be so familiar with truth
that when a counterfeit looms on the horizon, you know
it instantaneously. These DVDs point out the abundance of evidence
supporting people, places, and events in the Bible, but they
(15:34):
also expose the complete lack of evidence for claims that
are made in the Book of Mormon. The contrast is
obvious to Mormon anthropologist doctor Thomas Murphy, as we hear
in this clip of Murphy from the DNA versus the
Book of Mormon DVD.
Speaker 5 (15:53):
When we compare the Book of Mormon and the Bible,
especially when we deal with themes like archaeology, there are
some stark differences. There are specific battles, events, people named
in the Bible, places named in the Bible that we
know from external sources. That is, external sources validate that
these people existed, that these conflicts existed, that they're where
(16:17):
in fact places like Jerusalem, that Israelites are in fact
real people that are validated by these external sources outside
of the Bible. But with the Book of Mormon, we
don't have a single not one source from ancient America
outside of the Book of Mormon validating a single place,
a single person, a single event.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
And again that's doctor Murphy who's a Mormon anthropologist and
scholar at Edmund's Community College in Lynnwood, Washington. Of course,
that's I think the real issue here at hand. The
Bible is the gold standard for historical facticity, but the
Book of Mormon simply does not correspond to reality.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Absolutely.
Speaker 6 (17:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:02):
And as a point that was brought up earlier the Bible.
As far as the DNA issues go, there's lots of
evidence there that supports the Bible. For example, there's been
what's called a CO and Y chromosome study that was
done in the Jewish priestly line, and they studied the
white chromosomes that were passed down from father to son,
father to son to see if since the tradition of
(17:24):
the priestly line was happening from father to son. Therefore
the DNA should should show that, and that was found
to be the case. And then they had a tribe
called the Limba in South Africa who claimed they look
like other South African tribes, but they claimed that they
had come from a Jewish tradition, and not only that,
but a priestly Jewish tradition. And so they sent DNA
(17:48):
testers down there and they tested them. It's sure enough,
the CO and Y chromosome shows up in their DNA
in a high percentage. And so they were brought into
officially brought into the Jewish community.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
So again the Bible corresponds to reality. The Book of
Mormon does not want to go back to the phone lines.
We'll talk to Tim in Las Vegas, Nevada. You're on
with Joel Kramer.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Hi.
Speaker 6 (18:09):
Tim, Yeah, my biggest problem I'm LDS. And when I
listen to your show and we were talking about today,
everything I hear you say is go de mand for
your answers, Go to Man for your answers. If you
have questions, go to science, ask your neighbor. You know,
whenever you get the missionary to come, what do they
tell you to do? They don't tell you to. They
(18:31):
tell you to read the Book of Mormon, or read
the Bible and pray and ask Heavenly Father, and Heavily
Father would give you an answers.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
But that's not what we're saying. Jim, you're putting words
in my mouth. Certainly, if you've listened to the program
for any period of time, I always say, test all
things in light of scripture, hold fast to that which
is good. In other words, the scriptures are the final
court of arbitration. You test all things in light of scripture.
That's what I say on the broadcast.
Speaker 6 (19:00):
You interpret them, No, not as.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
I interpret them?
Speaker 6 (19:05):
Well, no, I've listened.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
No, No, this is absolutely false. I don't say as
I interpret them. I say that there are rules to
biblical interpretation. You need to learn the art and science
of reading the Bible. For all, it's worth reading it
in the sense in which it's intended, not just interpreted
in any old way you want to. That's when you
(19:26):
get into trouble. But we're talking here about factual evidence.
Speaker 6 (19:30):
Here's the point the nineteen hundred different denominations of Christian churches,
because it's all on man's interpretation. That's why Heavenly Father
brought another prophet, Joseph Smith, to correct man. Man has
made mistakes, just like man has done through the whole Bible,
the whole history of the Bible. God would get man online,
(19:51):
give them a prophet, get them online, and slowly but
surely man starts messing it up.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Let's talk about that for just a moment. Joe. Here
you have the assertion that the Bible really can't be
trusted because it's the Bible in the way that you
want to interpret it, and that the Book of Mormon
is the most correct of any book on earth and
it's the key star to the Mormon religion. But we're
saying exactly the opposite. We're saying that the Bible can
(20:19):
be trusted because every time you test the Bible in
light of evidence, you find out that what the Bible
says is actually factual. And let me give you an
example of that.
Speaker 6 (20:30):
You agree with every Christian denomination.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Out there, well, becauseminations the Christian denominations. Here's what we're
talking about, and I want Jola answer this question, but
let me just give a precursor to it. When we're
talking about differences in Christianity, we're talking about differences when
it comes to non essentials. In other words, we always
say in non essentials there has to be liberty, but
(20:54):
in essentials there has to be unity. So, for example,
when we talk about the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe
he's the one who spoke and the universe leapt into existence,
and we don't believe that through blind faith, but through
faith and evidence. Conversely, we deny that Jesus Christ is
the spirit brother of Lucifer, and we deny that based
(21:16):
on the extent evidence.
Speaker 3 (21:18):
Joel, Yeah, you know what you have with in Christianity
is you have a belief in the Bible alone as
God's word. What you have in Mormonism, what the Book
of Mormon, is a belief that the Book of Mormon
is God's word. So what you can do, and both
of them in the text itself claims to be a
history that really happened in life on earth. So what
(21:42):
you can do is you can put both of them
to that historical test and determine which one is what
it claims to be in God's word and which one
is man's making up. Because what you'll find and the
one that has man's fingerprints is that it'll get facts wrong.
It'll get all these things that man can't possibly know
(22:03):
everything that's going on. And so you find all these mistakes,
You find things changing over time, you find doctrines changing
and whatnot. And so when you put the Bible to
that test, you find that the doctrine of the nature
of God and the nature of man and how man
can be with God does not change. Throughout scripture. You
find that the historical reality that it portrays, the people existed,
(22:25):
the places existed, the cities existed, the artifacts exist. But
when you're looking at the Book of Mormon and you
put it to the historical test, it clearly shows that
it was a work of man, of Joseph Smith, and
therefore it is susceptible to the things that he was
ignorant of and that he didn't know, and he makes
mistakes in it, and it clearly proves out to be
(22:47):
one the word of Man in the Book of Mormon,
and the other the word of God in the Bible.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
And I think one of the best known New Testament
examples concerns the Book of Luke and X. Biblical skeptics
Sir William Ramsey, who was trained as an archaeologist and
then set out to disprove the historical reliability of the
New Testament through the eyes of Luke, and as through
his painstaking Mediterranean archaeological trips becomes converted as one after another,
(23:17):
the historical illusions of Luke are proved accurate. So, as
I said earlier, with every turn of the archaeologist's spade,
we continue to see evidence for the trustworthiness of scripture.
The reason that we're providing these DVDs is because exactly
the opposite is true with respect to the Book of Mormon.
It simply is not cooperated through archaeology. And that's the
(23:41):
point of the DVDs. Back to the phone lines, Jay
in Maine Uron with my guest hij Hi.
Speaker 7 (23:49):
I was listening when Steve was talking for him. Yeah,
and the DNA testing, I think is a real great idea.
I actually was a Roman Catholic who looked into Mormonism,
was actually baptized, and you know I I wanted to
believe it was the South American Indians. So were the
DNA tests done on those guys?
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Yeah, there's been a hundred and fifty different tribes that
have been tested all the way from South America all
the way up you know, through North America and all
of them show the same result that their ancestry comes
out of Southeast Asia.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
I kind of thought they would, cause I'd just like
to say to Steve and some other people Roman Catholic
then Mormon. John said in the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And that's what Mormons really need to hear and think
about a lot before you start realizing that you're not
(24:44):
ever gonna be God. And one thing that really got
me when I was a Mormon was when somebody said,
uh that Jesus said God is a spirit. No man
has seen the Father, the Son declares him. So you know,
for whatever it is, I've been there and done that,
and Mormonism is not the way.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Thanks Jay and Joel respond to that, because I think
the point here that Jay makes is an important point.
Virtually every single theological heresy begins with the misconception of
the nature of God.
Speaker 3 (25:16):
Yeah, that's correct. I mean, if people don't understand that
Mormonism is not Christian based upon that one teaching alone,
that man can become God, you know, that's polythesim, the
belief in many gods. It's I mean, really how different
from Christianity can you get to that?
Speaker 2 (25:37):
And again, our guest today has been Joel Kramer. He's
director of Living Hope Ministries. They've produced two wonderful DVDs,
DNA versus The Book of Mormon and The Bible versus
the Book of Mormon. Remember, ultimately, we want to become
so familiar with the truth that when a counterfeit looms
on the horizon, you know it instantaneously. And you want
(25:57):
to be able to communicate what you communicate with gentleness
and with respect. Thanks for tuning in. We'll look forward
to seeing you on the next edition of the biblinch
Man Broadcast. Along for now.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
You've been listening to the Bible answer Man Broadcast with
Hank hanagraph. To learn more about Hank or the Christian
Research Institute, just go to equip dot org. Equip dot
org is a fountain of information and resources designed to
help you defend the faith and grow in your knowledge
of the truth. You can also stream the broadcast live
(26:29):
or download archived broadcast. To talk with a resource consultant
by phone, call eight eight eight seven thousand CRII, or
you can write to us at Post Office Box eighty
five hundred Charlotte, North Carolina two eight two seven one.
The Bible answer Man Broadcast is supported by listeners like you.
(26:50):
We're on the air because life and truth matter. The
Complete Bible answer Book Collector's Edition is the comprehensive collection
of the most often asked questions Hank Hannigraph has received
throughout his four decades as host of The Bible answer
(27:12):
Man Broadcast. With more than half a million copies already
in print, this newly revised and expanded Collector's Edition helped
seekers and skeptics alike sort through the truth on topics
such as reliability of the Bible, religions and cults, the
resurrection and afterlife, and many more issues vital to a
better understanding of God in Christ and our relationship to Him.
(27:36):
To receive your copy of the Complete Bible answer Book
Collector's Edition, Revised and Expanded, call eight eight eight seven
thousand CRII and make a gift to support the Christian
Research Institute's life changing outreaches eight eight eight seven thousand
CRII or visit us at EQUIP dot org.
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