This Remembrance Day, join Brian for a special conversation with award-winning historian and bestselling author Allan Levine about his latest book, "The Dollar-a-Year Men".
Allan, the author of 16 acclaimed books including King: A Life Guided by the Hand of Destiny and Toronto: Biography of a City, has spent his career uncovering the people and moments that shaped our nation. A long-time columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press and contributor to the Globe and Mail, National Post, and Maclean’s, he brings a storyteller’s depth to Canada’s wartime history.
In "The Dollar-a-Year Men", Allan recounts how, during World War II, hundreds of business leaders volunteered their expertise to serve in government for a symbolic salary of one dollar a year. Under the bold leadership of C.D. Howe, these men transformed Canada into an industrial and military powerhouse — coordinating munitions, shipbuilding, and aircraft production that helped turn the tide of war. Allan and Brian discuss what drew Allan to this story, how figures like Howe managed to mobilize private industry at lightning speed, and whether this model of public–private collaboration could have lessons for today’s world. Brian also shares a personal connection — his grandfather, Hugh Arthur Crombie, served on the War Munitions Board and was recognized by Prince Philip for his wartime contributions.
This Remembrance Day, we remember not only those who fought on the front lines, but those who built the machinery of victory at home — Canadians whose sense of duty, innovation, and patriotism still inspire us today.
Allan, the author of 16 acclaimed books including King: A Life Guided by the Hand of Destiny and Toronto: Biography of a City, has spent his career uncovering the people and moments that shaped our nation. A long-time columnist for the Winnipeg Free Press and contributor to the Globe and Mail, National Post, and Maclean’s, he brings a storyteller’s depth to Canada’s wartime history.
In "The Dollar-a-Year Men", Allan recounts how, during World War II, hundreds of business leaders volunteered their expertise to serve in government for a symbolic salary of one dollar a year. Under the bold leadership of C.D. Howe, these men transformed Canada into an industrial and military powerhouse — coordinating munitions, shipbuilding, and aircraft production that helped turn the tide of war. Allan and Brian discuss what drew Allan to this story, how figures like Howe managed to mobilize private industry at lightning speed, and whether this model of public–private collaboration could have lessons for today’s world. Brian also shares a personal connection — his grandfather, Hugh Arthur Crombie, served on the War Munitions Board and was recognized by Prince Philip for his wartime contributions.
This Remembrance Day, we remember not only those who fought on the front lines, but those who built the machinery of victory at home — Canadians whose sense of duty, innovation, and patriotism still inspire us today.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
Saga nine sixty am or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Tomorrow is Rememberance Day, and I thought it would be
really interesting to check in with Alan Levine, who is
an award winning historian in Canada. He's written some interesting
books that we might chat about a little bit, but
one that was about dollar a year men that were
involved in World War Two working in Ottawa to contribute
to the war effort, and I thought it would be
(00:41):
kind of interesting to focus on this prior to Remembered Day.
The title is The Dollar a Year Men. The author
is Alan Levine, and he chronicles the inspiring story of
how numerous different countries business leaders transformed the Canadian economy
during and after World War Two and frankly helped us
when the war. My own grandfather, Hugh Crombie, was one
(01:03):
of the individuals that spent some time in Ottawa working
on the war munitions board as a dollar you're ment,
so I'm really interested in this topic, Alan Levine.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Well, thank you for having me, So tell us.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
What's the book about.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Well, during World War Two, you know, you have to
consider the mindset to Canada. Canada wasn't actually under attack,
but the country was connected to Britain in a powerful way,
much much more than it is today. And the government
once war was declared in nineteen thirty nine, the Canadian
(01:40):
government knew that it had to help Britain in every way,
particularly because the US wasn't involved in World War Two
until nineteen forty one, so you know, they had lots
of supplies. You munitions, Canada had really little. There was
no aircraft industry really, ship building was minimal. I mean,
I think the last ship in Canada was built around
(02:01):
nineteen twenty one before the war, and they had to
get this thing going in a very quick way. I mean,
there was a bit of a panic, and patriotism was
very strong, and you had a lot of former World
War One vets who happened to be powerful businessmen wanting
(02:22):
to somehow contribute. During the First World War, the United
States had recruited some businessmen to help them. The United
States was in the First World War for about eighteen
months nineteen seventeen to nineteen when the war ended in
November eighteen, and these guys were called dollar a year man.
Now they weren't really actually paid a dollar. This was
(02:42):
one of my well, it took me a long time
to get to the handle of I mean, it was
a nice way to define them, and they were in
fact referred to that. So when Canada started a similar
program of somehow asking businessmen to help them during the
war to run these new industries and to ways to
somehow produce the munition supplies and tanks, guns and everything
(03:06):
else that you can imagine a war needed, they sort
of this this system of dollary airmen recruitment was was born.
I came across after a lot doing a lot of research,
I finally came across a report that was put out
in nineteen forty nine showing that there were probably about
eight hundred of these businessmen who somehow contributed. Some for
(03:28):
some you know, maybe were on boards perhaps you know,
like your grandfather, but some were more involved and many
work for different kinds of industry. Wasn't only the munition
supply department that was the key gener you know factor
in running the war. Some worked for the War Times,
Trade and Price the Control Board, National Defense and other industries.
(03:50):
But the focus of my book is on these two
hundred and sixty somehow approximate men who worked under mainly
under CD how who is the powerful minister in Mackenzie
King's government during World War two, when the department was
established in officially in April nineteen forty and so these men,
(04:12):
you know, most of them were content to be honest,
were paid by their companies, which was in a sense
another act of patriotism. You know, these guys were like
preoccupied with the wharf, some of them for three four years.
They left their families, many of them didn't live Some
left and lived in Toronto, but and Montreal so they
could commute on weekends and so forth. The government covered
(04:36):
their expenses mainly, and their companies continually paid them. But
there was obviously a sacrifice because they were giving up
leadership that a lot of them were CEOs or vice presidents,
and they were giving up their responsibilities. So their companies,
the people who left behind, had to carry the weight
and know that in itself. But so I would say
(04:57):
that they and one dollar year man actually died during
a journey to He was on a ship that was
torpedoed by the Germans. So he gave the ultimate sacrifice.
And I think out of the two hundred and sixty men,
one actually was paid a dollar a year. But the
name stuck. It was very symbolic of their of their service.
(05:21):
They didn't. You know, it's interesting. I have to say
that I didn't know a lot about them before I
was recruited to write the book by Barlow Books. Sarah
Scott is the publisher of the company, and her grandfather,
Douglas Ambridge, was a big dollar a year man. He
later ran Abbotiv Forrest Pulp and Paper and in fact
saved the company from bankruptcy. So he was a big guy.
(05:43):
And she had always had in mind a book. And
because I had written a book about Mackenzie King, I
was somewhat familiar. But I and in fact I had
written about some of these people. I looked back when
I was doing the research, but I didn't really I
have to say that I didn't really understand how big
it was and how the whole system worked.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Eight d eight hundred people.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
That's a hacked well, yeah, I mean, the focus of
the book is certainly not an eight hundred people. It's
really probably on about fifty or sixty of these guys
who were the key heads of the production agencies and
controls groups that how created. You know, you have to
(06:24):
I think the main thing in this story is you
have to keep in mind it happened during a war.
The king government was operating in a semi authoritarian fashion.
Decisions were made by orders and Council. The government didn't
have to go to they I mean they did explain
themselves and House of Commons was going on. The government
explained what they were doing and the opposition had the
(06:45):
right to question them. The media had a right to
comment and they did. But ultimately as the system evolved,
it sort of evolved in the late nineteen thirties into
eventually diminuitions and supply through a couple phases, and the
decision was made that if you're going to have these
large expenders of money, because King Mackenzie King was very
(07:08):
hesitant at first, he didn't want to spend any money
and he thought, you know, he and in fact, of
course Canada spent billions of dollars billions of dollars building
building up these things and how how are you going
to make so much? Britain was in desperate need of
all these things, who's going to make them? You have
to somehow convince either private companies to make them these
(07:32):
munitions as in take over some of these companies, and
or or you had to create your own companies, which
they did all together. But it's still it's still an
amazing story. It sounds like.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
It's just an amazing story.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
And I think one that that we number one need
to hear and remember in regards to what happened during
World War Two, but it probably has a lot of significance. Today,
we're going to take a break for some messages and
back be back in just two minutes with our guests
talking about dollars year men and a book that he's
written about that topic.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Today, was everyone back at two.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Minute stream us live at SAGA nine six am dot C.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Wellcome back everyone to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour. I've
got Alan Levine with us tonight.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
He's written a book called The Dollar a Year Men,
and Allan is an award winning historian. He's chronicled the
inspiring story of many different people in Canada. I understand
that you wrote a really good book about Mackenzie King,
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Right? Many years ago? Now? But yeah, I know I wrote.
There had been no real single biography of King, and
I decided to do that. I mean, it was possible
for a variety of readers.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
The true that he like talked to dogs and Buigi
Bo his dead mother's I mean.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
He well, it's true. He well, he loved his dogs,
he called all. He had three Irish terriers. They were
all named Pat Pat one, Pat two, Path three, Pat
Pat three outlived him. Pat one of the longest and
was his most loyal companion. But no, I mean, you
know he did. He was a very quirky man. We
(09:20):
know so much about King because he left this. The
most probably the most remarkable document in Canadian history is
King's Diary. Started writing in eighteen ninety three. The last
entry was close to t when he died in nineteen fifty.
I mean it is. I have to have to say
that it's probably thirty thousand pages. I have not read
every single entry, but thanks to the Library and Archives
(09:45):
Canada many years ago, someone first of all transcribed the
diary because it was written in King's weird handwriting, so
that would have been and then eventually they put the
diary on line before the When I first started doing
writing history in the nineties. I had to use King's
diary for a book I wrote about Prime Ministers of
Canada and the media, and it was on microfiche, which
(10:08):
was impossible to use because you had to know the
date you were looking for and you couldn't search it.
But when I started my project on King's die on King,
the diary was online and it allowed me to search
for dates names, so you know, I typed in something like,
you know, he was obsessed with his mother, so you know,
you type in the phrase dear mother and it comes
(10:29):
up like about a thousand times. But I mean he
was into spiritualism. I mean, that's why King such a strange,
interesting character. Had the diary been destroyed, which King was
ambiguous about it. In his will, he sort of wanted
to use but in a very respectful fashion, which in
the end, once it was released, once his executors decided
(10:50):
to release it, it wasn't It wasn't so used in
such a respectful fashion. People found out about his various
craziness and his you know, he was fascinated by the
images in his shaving cream ladder, and he used Ouiji boards,
and I mean he wasn't the only Canadian who believed
in spiritualism.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
One of the longest serving prime ministers.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
No, he was, and you know, and he had You
can't really talk about the nineteen period nineteen let's say,
nineteen twenty to nineteen fifty. He was the main central
person and he was not charismatic, and he somehow survived
for a.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Very How wouldn't get elected if he wasn't charismatic?
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Well, because in those days, I mean, people just perceive
politicians differently and the options. The trouble is the Conservatives
were led by some very I mean Arthur Meehan was
a very smart man, but he was very inflexible. King
just Canadians want, you know, the middle of the road.
They still do. I mean, who are the most successful?
(11:49):
Why does Mark Carney the Prime minister today and not
Pierre pauliev because he's he hugs the middle pauliav is
just a little bit too on the right. Canadians a
King discover. There's a great quote I have in the
book about you know, extreme politicians in Canada are not
successful and let's say in the United States. So King
(12:10):
understood that more than most. Plus the other thing King
had going for him. In those days, there was no
real nationalist party in Quebec. The province had sixty five
seats in every single election from nineteen twenty one to
King's last in the flight four forty five. He was
always winning like ninety to ninety five percent of those seats,
so he had a huge advantage that I mean he had.
(12:33):
He didn't speak French interestingly enough, probably probably the last
prime minister not to speak French. I don't know if
Lester Pearson did, but King King had a French lieutenant
like Ernest Law Point was a prompt Paul. They just
delivered Quebec to him. So he started off with sixty
five seats right away, and then all he needed was
some half of Ontario, which he got. And you know,
(12:54):
he wasn't all that successful frankly. From nineteen twenty his
first three elections were minority governments, and then in nineteen
thirty five he was out of power for five years.
Nineteen thirty five he was reelected and then and he
did perform well in World War Two obviously, and was
smart enough to enlist CD. How a businessman the only business.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Tell us a little bit about CD. How if you
could yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I mean, I alway had a book about CD how
I think about twenty years ago that was fascinating.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Yeah, an old professor of mind, Robert Bob a story
in Robert Bothwell and William Kilburn wrote a biography of
how it's the only real There's another book about him too,
but it's not as good. You know, most people wouldn't
know who he is today, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But a very important businessman.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Yeah, yeah. He He was a civil engineer, American born,
ended up coming to Canada, ended up in Thunderbay or
what was thunder Bay later thunder Bay, and he started building.
He went into business and he started building elevators like
her huge terminal elevators, and he became very successfully either
(14:00):
through the depression and in somehow in about nineteen thirty four.
He was a very aggressive, you know, strong character. He
was enticed to go into politics. You know. The story
is he didn't want to waste his time in the
backbenches and he told that at a meeting. And I
don't know if it's mythical, but it probably is. But
(14:21):
he met Mackenzie King and said, okay, you know, I'll
run in the nineteen thirty five election as long as
you give me a cabinet position right away. So I
mean he did end up getting one. I don't know
if King actually if that threat was real or not.
But from there he sort of built up. And you know,
most of the people in the cabinet were lawyers or
other kinds of you know, writers or is how just
(14:44):
had he was rich had. He was a workaholic, you
know his faith. One of the good stories about him
is somehow I guess just before he went into politics.
You know, he came home from a long business trip
and his wife, he had a couple of kids. His
wife ushered him into the living room. Children would like
you to meet your father. But you know he he was.
(15:06):
He was He did not suffer fools, A one dollar
a year man, a lawyer. He asked how it asked
him to prepare a memo and the guy comes back,
it's like seven lines. How how looks at the memo? Good?
But next time make it four. You know that he
was he was that, but he he was He understood
(15:27):
that the bureaucracy, that what he took on the responsibility
of building up Canada's really nonexistent wartime economy. How are
you going to do this. Now, you know, you could
hire civil servants, or you could hire I suppose you
could hire businessmen and actually employ them, but that was
going to take too long. So they decided, as I said,
(15:50):
to to seek out businessmen. The CEOs like the head
of Ford to Canada and the time is Gunny Wallace Campbell.
Though he ended up not being a good dollar or megazine.
He really didn't understand the kind of dynamics that were
involved and he only lasted a short time. But Henry
Borden was a corporate lawyer from Toronto who was the
(16:11):
nephew of Sir Robert Burton, the prime minister in the world,
and he was probably the most important person, one of
the most important people. He was responsible for writing all
these orders in council with another guy from Montreal named
Robert A. C Henry, who also is an interesting character.
And then there was you know, there was this other
(16:33):
guy named Gordon Scott who's a Montreal accountant who's their
financial He's the guy that ended up getting killed in December.
The British were very they didn't know what they wanted
finnally enough. They actually didn't want Canada sort of competing
with British manufacturing even during the war when they needed
all this stuff, and the US was because of neutrality
(16:56):
laws couldn't necessarily supply the stuff that they had. And
so how in the midst of when when the German
German U boats were patrolling the Atlantic and destroying passenger
ships during the period, let's say from September nineteen forty
to December, there are several big ships and passengers including children,
(17:20):
were torpedoed and these people died. How decided he had
to go to London to talk to British politicians and
to figure out exactly what was going on. So he
brought Gordon Scott and E. P. Taylor, who was a
great Toronto entrepreneur and head of the Argus Corporation. He
was at thirty nine years old. He became a dollar
(17:41):
big dollar year then as well, and Billy Woodward, who
owned department stores of Vancouver. So they all went to Vancouver.
They all went on this ship that left New York
and about a week or ten days into the voyage,
German U boat torpedoed them. So how in the other
how how and would and Taylor survived, but Scott in
(18:04):
the rescue when the ship was being rescued, he got crushed,
and you know, it was a really sad thing. And
you know, the Globe and Mail at the time wrote
that he had died like any soldier on the field,
and I always thought that was a good analogy. But
he was only fifty three. And Henry Bordon is sort
of one of the I featured him a lot in
the book because he left a fantastic document, an unpublished
(18:29):
memoir that in fact, he wouldn't allow when Bothwell told
me that he wouldn't allow. When Bothwell was writing a
CD howbook, Burdon was still alive, but he wouldn't let
him read the whole thing. But Bordon died in nineteen
eighty nine and the memoir ended up in his papers
in Ottawa. So thanks to this, I came across a
(18:51):
master's thesis for a guy named Jeremy Stewart in the
University of Calgary had written about the Dollar a year man.
It was like the only thing I could really find,
and he knew about the Burden Memoir, and so I
got a hold of it. And you know, Burdon is
great because it you know, it gives you a real
personal account of how these guys operated, what they did,
(19:12):
the kind of problems that evolved, and the egos. You know,
because these businessmen all had egos. They operated in a
very pyramid structure.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
With them on top and so on top of the
civil service, like that was the civil service reporting to them.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Well, no, the civil service, they were sort of independent
of that. I compare how to a snowplow parent. That's
what he was like. He like, he got all these guys,
he appointed to them to the head of agencies and boards.
I mean there was like seventeen major production boards things
in charge. Let's say aircraft. Ralph Bell was this you
(19:47):
know Brusque Nova Scotia businessman. He was put in charge
of aircraft production and literally, you know, built the aircraft
industry in Canada over a period of four years. I
mean it was impossible a tough guy to work with it.
Clearly brilliant and they did what they have to do
to make these planes. And they needed planes to train.
They were part of the British Commonwealth training program that
(20:10):
with Britain, so they built all these things. But you
know how how somehow he against the frankly criticism by
the opposition, I mean, the financial posts and Global mill
were very critical. Uh, these businessmen taking over the government.
There's they answer to no one. But how you know,
even his own colleagues in King's cabinet said how he
(20:32):
was building his private little government, and how just sort
of dismissed it all, and he said, I have a
job to do the war, you know. And the war
was on and there was urgency that I don't think
we can really understand today. I mean, you know, then
they they they feared the Nazis and they you know,
he he figured out ways for them to do what
(20:53):
they had to do and and stepped in. They but
they answered to him and and many times he did
claim down on them, and he certainly didn't like when
his authority was challenged. Which I have another story I
can tell you if you.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Like, please, how would how well?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Okay, So there was this guy named hr McMillan or
Harvey McMillan. He was a BC lumber guy. There's a
company called McMillan Blowdell that he was the McMillan and
I that he started the company in the twenties. I mean,
he was very smart. He was one of the first
person people in Cany went to Yale University that forestry
management started his own company literally from he had no money.
(21:32):
He grew up in a very poor he built himself up,
self made man, very smart I understood, I mean, I
found one of the few people who actually wrote about how,
you know, the Nazis are a danger to the world,
and how recruited him to look after timber. There was
also a need to control resources. So aside from the
(21:55):
production agencies, the other big thing they created was a
control board where they had people who looked after every
resource you could possibly imagine, you know, gasoline and because
eventually the amount of gasoline that people could buy for
their private cars was control. You just couldn't buy tin.
Rubber was a huge you know, so people couldn't buy
(22:15):
you know, the spare tires, and that's another good story.
They ended up building a massive factory to create synthetic rubber,
you know, every every possible kinds of resource, so they
had controllers would obviously was necessary for building planes and
huts and houses and everything else. So this so how
McMillan became the timber controller and did a good job
(22:38):
any sort of in Ottawa during the period around nineteen
forty forty one when you know, it took a while
for this kind of production to get going. You know,
Ralph Bell was appointed, for example, in June nineteen forty,
but the first planes weren't really made until early nineteen
forty one. I mean, it took five six months to
get this. They had to, you know, even if you
(22:59):
took over a fact like factories that made refrigerators and
ovens and stoves are now making munitions and aircraft. But
it took a while to retool the whole factory, to
figure out out what to do and what they needed
to do, and get and get the engines and the parts,
and some of them were American and and and the
British kept changing their mind a hundred times, you know,
(23:19):
you know, and some of these planes, you know, I
think a Lancaster plane had about fifty thousand parts, and
and and and so so how how did what he
had to do? And as is, McMillan somehow started challenging
how his authority, He started publicly criticizing how sort of
(23:45):
supported by a few people in Ottawa, how was away
in Britain at the time on this trip that I
told you about. And McMillan made a couple he talked
too much. Some of the good other resources that I
used were the records left by journalists Financial Post. The
(24:05):
best the best UH documents are by a guy named
Grant Dexter, who was the Winnipeg Free Press's correspondent Nonadawa.
He left the most fantastic memos. I mean, he had
unfettered access to the government. The Free Press was very liberal.
He talked to the cabinet every day. They told them
(24:27):
all their secrets. He knew everything, and so he left
these fantastic memos in which he talks about who's going
doing what and and so he tracks this whole story
and McMillan eventually, you know, how was smart McMillan. He
thought McMillan wanted his job, and he eventually McMillan lost
the argument and was shipped up to Montreal to run
something else. And so he but but he was you know,
(24:49):
he was banquet for How. He threw a banquet for
How and called how the greatest organizer candidate ever had,
So you know, I mean, he lost the argument, but
he but he he didn't he didn't lose faith in
the government. So it's just, you know, not many people
challenged how and he and and in fact he was
(25:11):
so mad ones How that he was going to quit,
and Mackenzie King couldn't afford to do that, and so
he he he talked him out of that.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Is there a comparable in Canadian history to see how?
Speaker 4 (25:27):
I mean there were I mean that's a tough question.
I mean not in because because the war. Again, you know,
there's nobody like him that operated semi independently. I mean,
how later became up until he lost the election in
nineteen fifty seven when deefen Baker started. John Diefenbaker was
(25:47):
elected to a minority government and then a majority a
year later. How is how his career came to an
end in nineteen fifty seven, and he died several years later.
I mean, there were other other big people in you
know who took over portfolios during the Trudeau years, you know,
guys like Mark Leland and John Cretien and people like that.
(26:10):
And there have been other business people in running departments,
but no one, I don't think of how stature to
be honest again, But you know, again, the war changed
the way in which every the cabinet was operated, and
what kinds of decisions you know when when how I
wanted to spend money, he just spent money, even if
(26:32):
the finance minister was yelling about it. And trust me,
they did. You know this guy Wallace Campbell who had
who was one of the first real dollars a year men.
You know, he came to Ottawa, he was head of Ford.
No one told him what to do. He said, I
want a hundred million dollars. Is in nineteen thirty nine,
I want a hundred million dollars to do what I want. Well,
the finances were not giving you one hundred million dollars
(26:53):
and it took a little while for that system to evolve. Eventually,
How was allowing these guys to spend a lot of money.
But and it was necessary. I mean, you know you
had to. They also created Crown corporations, you know of
if a company wasn't operating to their satisfaction when they
had to build Lancaster airplanes for example, there is a
(27:15):
company in Malton, Ontario or missis Sauga. I think that's
where you're located near there? Right? Is that right?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
You're the show is broadcast from this yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Right, so near I guess where the Pearson Airport is today?
But you know, they walked in and they were having
labor issues. Late labor was another you know these guys,
most of these businessmen had no patients for unions, and
there were labor issues during the war, several big strikes.
You know, these businessmen. The first response was, let's call
(27:46):
in the army. But the army did not do that
kind of stuff. And they went in took over this
plant that was part of a larger company, and they
created a Crown corporation called Victory Aircraft, and they put
in their own men and they started building Lancaster airplanes
on that Lancaster was a huge bomber that that was
really successful during the war. And that's what they did.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Mostly built in Canada, was it not?
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Yes, yeah, no, it was entirely that's right. It was
entirely built in Canada. They had ants and trainers. I
have to say that my knowledge of aircraft production. How
did they get you substantially?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
How'd they get them to Britain? Did they fly them
or did they share?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
They put them on ships and mostly flew them. Yes,
I think that's probably the way they because on a
ship you'd have to take it apart. In the early days,
just is another great story. I mean, I saw this
in a movie and I didn't actually believe it was true,
but it was true. The Americans, like early nineteen forty,
(28:48):
before Canadian airplane production got they had British had ordered
a lot of planes from the United States aircraft producers
in places like California. But the laws, as I said,
the New Reality Lies, forbid pilots from flying into a
country that was at war, including Canada. So they build
airstrips in Montana and in North Dakota near Winnipeg, like
(29:12):
one hundred kilometers from Winnipeg, where I'm located, and they
have farmers in these towns and the Emerson, Manitoba. This
farmer used a team of horses to drag the plane
across the border, so that that was the only way
they could be pushed, either pushed across or dragged across.
(29:32):
And and I have a picture of a farmer doing this.
You got like three dollars a plane to drag them
across the border, and comes good ship them or fly
them to London.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
A great story.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I know we're chiying tonight with with an author of
an incredibly interesting book. Please tell us what's the name
of the book and where can people the.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Dollar a year? Man? How the best business brains in
Canada help the Canada when the Second World War, how
referred to them as the best business brains in Canada.
That's where That's where we got the subtitle.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
We're gonna take a break for some messages and come
back in just two minutes with Alan living and.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I'm gonna ask him, is there any lesson here for today?
Stay with us? Everyone back in two.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Minutes, No radio, no problem stream is live on SAGA
nine sixty am dot C.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
A welcome back everyone to the Brian Corombie Radio Hour.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
You know what, I think that remembered day is a
great day for us to think back and remember the
sacrifices that our forefathers are, our.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Four bearers.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Incurred to to win wars, to establish our freedoms, et cetera.
But then I think Alan Levine in his book is
also a great way for us to remember the contribution
of the rest of society, because I think the rest
of the society, the political establishment, business people, etc. People
that were just buying government securities to help finance the
war effort, people that were rationed.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I had an aunt that volunteered and ended up getting.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Shipped up to Alaska to work on the Alaska Highway
because of some work that was being done at that time,
because people were concerned about what would happen if the
Nazis invaded through invaded North America through Alaska, and so
I think there were a lot of people that made
a strong contribution. Alan, I wonder if you could take
a step back though for a second, because I understand
(31:40):
that numerous people have read your book and have commented
about how today is a comparable situation. And I understand
that actually former Prime Minister Jean Creca has written a
forward saying this is an important book, a reminder that
when Canada is under assault, good men and women step
up to serve. This is what happened in World War Two,
(32:00):
that is what is happening now. A lot of people
think that there is now a similar situation in Canada
with threats from Donald Trump, with the terriff wars, and
also a big opportunity with dramatic increases in events spending
because of meeting the two percent or three and a
half percenter. Some people are talking about five percent potential
(32:24):
of GDP being sent on defense I've interviewed a couple
of people recently that say that we need coos in
our different ministries, that we don't have people that are
really good at operating, and we have great people that
are good at making policies, be good at making regulations,
but not necessarily people that are really good at operations.
(32:45):
And they take a look at cd how and the
Dollar year Men as an example of the kind of
business involvement that we need to have. There was a
great article, very big article in the Global Maale just
I think a year ago, that said the biggest difference
between the Trudeau ara and past era is that there
weren't very many business people in cabinet. And historically there
were always good political people, but also good business people.
(33:07):
And they look at the combination of Paul Martin, of
Jean Creccia, of Brian mulroney, of numerous Jim Flaherty, of
people both political and both political parties that had great
business backgrounds that joined cabinet and partnered.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Up with potentially prime ministers, and then we don't have
that today.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
So I ask you, sir, given what you've learned, what
you've written, what you've researched about World War two and
the dollar of your men. If we have to ramp
up spending dramatically on defense, if we have to think
about diversifying our economy, if we need to think about
a protectionist United States, should we be thinking about something
(33:44):
similar to Dollar of your men, something similar to having
business people get far more involved in Canadian government.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Yeah, I mean I think there's much to that. I
don't think it could work in the same way, and
it's certainly not as many people. I have to say.
You know, once the war ended, how continually did recruit
He was in charge of trade and commerce and reconstruction
of the country, and he actually still used people that
(34:11):
were technically dollar a year. And I found a story
about a guy named Bert Robertson from Montreal. He was
the manager of the Dominion Bridge Company, and he had
been recruited in June nineteen fifty four to become the
director of Defense Production Department. And he was probably stayed
there for about a year, and he was probably the
(34:32):
last so called how dollar a year meant? I think
business people I have and in fact I an anticipation
of you asking this question, I have been noticing that Carney,
the Prime Minister Carney has in fact been a recruiting
businessman for just what you're talking about. But these people
(34:54):
are not in a sense volunteering their service or staying
with their company who's paying them. The government is that
really employing them. But you know, the best and the
best example just recently, Carnian announced something called the Defense
Investment Agency that's over seen by Secretary of the State
for Defense and Procurement Stephen Feurer. And he hired this
(35:18):
guy named Doug Gooseman who's the new CEO of this
Investment agency, and he's the former deputy chair of RBC
as well as a managing director of Goldman Sacks. I mean,
the interesting thing is, and so there's a classic Now
he's probably getting paid a huge amount of money to
do this. You know, these guys, the amount of money
(35:39):
they made and profits and so forth are there are
their personal interests were not something that these during a
war that these guys cared about all that much. Some
of them in fact didn't. Even a guy named Harry Carmichael,
who ran production it was a big Ontario dollar are man,
he wouldn't even take expensive So you covered that himself
to school, mister Guzman is hired. But the interesting thing
(36:02):
is the agency. This procurement agency will only oversee procurements
valued at one hundred million dollars or more. I mean,
in the nineteen thirties some of the dollar here men
needed permission to spend five thousand dollars. So it's times
have change. But I do also know that there are
other I mean, there are other people involved in the government.
(36:25):
Michael Sabia, who was the Clerk of the Privy Council,
used to be a CEO of Hydro Quebec. Marc Andre
Blanchard was appointed Chief of Staff in June twenty twenty five.
I mean he was a big Quebec lawyer. Don Ferrell
who was appointed CEO of major projects in Calgary, the
Spearhead Nation building projects. She was a big CEO and
(36:49):
board chair of a trans Mountain corporation. And Timothy Hodgson,
who is appointed Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. He
was a CEO of Goldman Sachs. So you do have
because of Arnie's background, I think you do have more
businessmen contributing as either cabinet ministers or as paid you know,
not necessarily civil servants, but you know, someone like Guzman
(37:11):
is a good example. In fact, someone called him the
article that I found is and they sort of compared
Guzman to a dollar a modern dollar year. Man, I
don't you know the kind of system that existed for
the five years of the war. I just I don't
think could be replicated unless there was some massive political
Oh let me.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Let me, let me, let me stop you on that,
because I think you've given us some really good example.
So I went to school with Doug Guzman, I worked
with him. He was a relationship banker that covered me
when he worked with with Royal Bank, and some people
thought he was one of the potential successors to be
the CEO of Royal Bank. So a very capable individual.
(37:51):
Hodgson similarly, was a banker that represented that was the
representative to to me at one point in time in
my career. In his career, Michael Sabia has got an
incredible background that you mentioned hydro Quebec, but he was
also the case to the Poe.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
You know, he's got probably one of the.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Best business backgrounds of anyone in Canada now running the
Clerk of the Civil Service, of the Clerk of the
Privy Council. I can't think other than World War Two
and the Dollar. You're men of any other time in
Canadian history where sech senior business people joined the government.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
Can you No, that's probably true. You know, most most politicians, frankly,
if you look back at their occupations, most of them
are lawyers or a lot of them, some some business people.
But no, I would agree. I mean, I think that
has to do with Mark Carney's perspective and where he's
from and what his world and what his experiences, and
(38:51):
he's and he's smart enough to know that some of
these people know what they're doing. So sure, I mean,
I mean, I think that in recruiting these people into
the cabin that are into high level positions, but they're answerable,
you know, they're not they're not independent. They have to
answer to a cabinet minister, and so they don't operate,
as I said, in the same kind of semi independent way.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
So you've you've studied the dollar your men during World
War Two, when you've described a situation where CD how
was very authoritarian and uh and was running things can't
work with our current political system that the procedure oriented
policy oriented regulation, can it work?
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Or do we need to create a new system.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
Well, I mean, you don't want the World War two system,
you know, is a semi dictatorship, frankly, and I don't
think anybody in Canada would want to operate under that system.
So these guys are you know that anybody today recruited
it has to the system is much more bureaucraftic.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
So let's pretend that Mark Carney invites you to Ottawa
and asks you to sit down with Hodson, Sabbia Guzman
and the the lady I can't remember her name that's
running project's office in Calgary, who has an incredibly impressed
plumer as well, and says, based on your knowledge and
experience of World War two and the dollar year men,
(40:12):
what advice would.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
You give these people as to how to get things
done in Ottawa? What would you say?
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Well, I mean they probably could use the help of
other business people that they maybe they could create boards
and committees as advisories. But again, you know, the world
we live in is much more complex. There's the high
degree of scrutiny and social media criticism. And you know,
(40:41):
I don't think that that the opposition and the press
and the Canadians would want wealthy businessmen coming in operating
sort of independently and running things. I mean, it sounds
even if they produced positive results, and I think you
just get the backlash and it's just not how democratic
parliamentary system is always run. So so I mean, there's
(41:04):
certainly a place for these people, and I'm sure that
that Guzman will not be the last person to be
involved in something like this. But again, you know, it's
it's under a system in which he's answerable to a
cabinet minister directly and in which everything is transparent, where
they're not. You know, in World War Two, Henry Burden
(41:27):
and R. A. C. Henry and and and Gordon Scott.
You know, they they all lived in the Chateaul laure
A hotel. They would they would meet every night and
draw up orders in council, get how to sign them
and do what they wanted to do. No one, no
one not told them what to do. No one asked
any questions. You know, if if they needed to take
(41:48):
over a company, they did, and that's what they did.
You just couldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Today, Okay, So let me push you on this a
little bit more if I could.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
So there's this book that does the rage in the
United States, at least in progressive of politics called abundance.
That the argument is that progressive politicians particularly, but governments
in general, have become really good at regulation, red tape
and stopping things and thinking about you know, pollution and
climate change issues and stuff like that, planning issues, housing,
(42:20):
et cetera, but terrible at building things.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
And the argument is.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Is that if we don't start getting better at building
things and all we do is regulate, we're not going
to be successful. We're not going to build the homes,
the hospitals, the healthcare system, the everything we want, the infrastructure,
if we don't get out of just regulating and start building. So, sir,
please tell me if all of the things, the social media,
the opposition, the reporting, the cabinet ministers that you talk
(42:47):
about is true, how do we get out of our
way and start building things?
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Again, There's a tough question. I mean, you have to
have the drive. You have to have a drive coming
from the top. Carnegie's attitude, the attitude of the cabinet
ministers have to generate that kind of building. I mean,
I think that you'll see that even with these kinds
of new agencies. I mean, you know, the trouble is
things take time, whereas during World War Two they didn't
(43:15):
have the time, so they pushed it and circumended rules,
didn't care about budgets and you know, government that the
parliamentary government is slow by design, and I'm not sure
that's a bad thing necessarily, but it's true that things
get that red tape does hamper developments and construction. And
you know, I live in a city that is so
(43:39):
overregulated into they you know, it takes a major road
here needs to be widened. It's probably a twenty year
debate and they still haven't done anything about it. I mean,
it's just at a local level like that because of
the various factors involved. So expenditures of public money is
(44:00):
is a tricky thing and I think that I think
that's part of the problem. But if you have the
drive from the top, and you know, again, you know,
the government is huge. Canada was eleven million people back
in the nineteen forties. I mean we're like what thirty
something more than thirty million today. I mean there's a
lot more social problems and other issues that they people
(44:22):
just back then didn't have to worry about. So, as
I said, it's much more complicated.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
I think we're chatting with historian Alan Levine tonight about
a book that he's written called The Dollar a Year Men.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Where's it available? Where can people get it?
Speaker 4 (44:37):
It's available at all bookstores and any Amazon. Well you shouldn't, actually,
I guess where his Canadian shouldn't buy and books from Amazon,
but they can if they want, and all independent bookstores
and chains and so forth. Anywhere you can buy a book,
it'll be available.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
The Dollar a Year Man by Alan Levin.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
We're going to take a final break and come back
with some concluding comments in just two minutes.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Stay with this, everybody back.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Into stream us live at SAGA nine am dot C.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
A Welcome back, everyone to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour.
We're chatting tonight, really in honor of Rememberance Day, with
historian Alan Levine about a book that he's written called
(45:29):
The Dollar a Year Man, which has written about people
that served the government of the war efforts during World
War Two, reporting to cd how Mackenzie King in regards
to organizing our industry, organizing ammunitions, organizing our resources.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
To fight the war. Alan, you know you've mentioned the
word service several times. What is this concept? Of service,
service to country, service to I guess.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
I mean, these people grew up in a time when
patriotism meant something. I mean, I was thinking about this,
you know, until the business with them, they kind of
backlash against the US. Patriotism was sort of considered not cool.
But it's a little bit more so. It's sort of
been reborn, I suppose to a certain extent. But these
(46:15):
guys were They didn't do it for money. They served
because they failed. It was their patriotic duty to do so.
And they're very loyal, I mean, you know, and they
were loyal to Britain too. I mean, to be a
good Canadian back then was being welled to Britain. But
you know, as one example, one of the young dollar
year men that was Henry Bordon, recruited from Montreal. I
(46:36):
think Frank Covert, or it could have been a Halifax
was a guy named Frank Covert. He later became a big,
huge corporate lawyer in Canada, but during because of circumstances,
he was working in Ottawa in Borden's legal department and
decided at the age of thirty four that he wanted
to actually enlist and fight. Initially, CD how and other
(46:58):
people told them he couldn't do it any he was
a bit too old to fly airplanes. But he ended
up somehow using his influence to enlist and I think
became a navigator, and he left his company, his flaw
firm was not too happy about it. And then for
a good three years probably he served overseas flying missions,
(47:19):
bombing missions and so forth, and survived and then came
back and re established his career. So he sort of
he was the only dollar year man, and I know
the other ones were probably too old to do that,
but he was a young guy and he was the
only person that I could find that actually did that,
So that story was a bit unique, and he took
that patriotism. But I mean, I think that's the driving
(47:39):
force behind the whole books. It's that these people, because
no one forced them to do this, they didn't have to.
I mean, how didn't like taking no for an answer,
and sometimes these people did refuse, and How would berate
them until they did, and they just they just saw
it as something important and doing their duty to a country.
I just don't think. I think that people are a
(48:02):
bit more selfish today, and it would have to be
something pretty bad and urgent for people to up just
change their lives and you know, not see their families
and children and so forth, and moved to another city
and take on these huge responsibilities.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Well, Alan Levina, really thank you for joining us, and
thank you very much for writing this book. From a
personal standpoint, my own grandfather, Hugh Crombie, served in World
War One, got wounded in Vimy Ridge and I've got
one of his medals on my wall. And then during
World War Two he was a dollar yearman. He was
(48:42):
in something called the War Munitions Board with a best
friend of his by the name of Brophy, and the
two of them, I've.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Got a picture of them receiving.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
A award at some point in time from Prince Philip
just before he passed away in the sixties. He was
head of the Canadian Manufacturers Association businessmen in Montreal. And
you know what, I don't know much more than what
I just said, other than the fact that he did
these things, and I got these medals and I got
these pictures, and so actually being able to find out
(49:13):
a little bit more about what these dollar your men
did and how they thought about serving their country and
the role they played in our war effort would be amazing.
And so I'm going to go get your book and
read it because it sounds like it's going to be interesting.
And then I'm going to start to see if I
can search his name in any of these archives that
(49:33):
you've mentioned, see if I can find some more history
about Hugh Arthur crom because tomorrow I'm going to remember him,
and I'm going to remember the stories that you have
told us, and I'm going to remember the sacrifice that
so many people, not just the people that served, but
you know, unquestionably the people that served, but also the
people that were back home fighting the war effort in
their own special way. So, Alan Levine, the dollar of
(49:54):
your men, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
For joining us.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
I really appreciate you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
That's our show for tonight. Everybody, thank you for joining.
And I remind you I'm on every Monday through Friday
at six o'clock on nine to sixty am. You can
stream me online even from Winnipeg at triblew Saga nine
sixty am dot CA. My podcast and videos go up
on my website Briancromby dot com, and on social media,
my YouTube channel, and on podcast servers as soon as
the radio show gets podcast to air.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Goodnight Everybody, and I don't think it's happy. Remember today?
Speaker 3 (50:21):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Let's remember on your remembers day.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Good Night everybody, no radio, no problem. Stream is live
on SAGA nine sixty am dot C
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
Saga nine sixty am or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Tomorrow is Rememberance Day, and I thought it would be
really interesting to check in with Alan Levine, who is
an award winning historian in Canada. He's written some interesting
books that we might chat about a little bit, but
one that was about dollar a year men that were
involved in World War Two working in Ottawa to contribute
to the war effort, and I thought it would be
(00:41):
kind of interesting to focus on this prior to Remembered Day.
The title is The Dollar a Year Men. The author
is Alan Levine, and he chronicles the inspiring story of
how numerous different countries business leaders transformed the Canadian economy
during and after World War Two and frankly helped us
when the war. My own grandfather, Hugh Crombie, was one
(01:03):
of the individuals that spent some time in Ottawa working
on the war munitions board as a dollar you're ment,
so I'm really interested in this topic, Alan Levine.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
Well, thank you for having me, So tell us.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
What's the book about.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
Well, during World War Two, you know, you have to
consider the mindset to Canada. Canada wasn't actually under attack,
but the country was connected to Britain in a powerful way,
much much more than it is today. And the government
once war was declared in nineteen thirty nine, the Canadian
(01:40):
government knew that it had to help Britain in every way,
particularly because the US wasn't involved in World War Two
until nineteen forty one, so you know, they had lots
of supplies. You munitions, Canada had really little. There was
no aircraft industry really, ship building was minimal. I mean,
I think the last ship in Canada was built around
(02:01):
nineteen twenty one before the war, and they had to
get this thing going in a very quick way. I mean,
there was a bit of a panic, and patriotism was
very strong, and you had a lot of former World
War One vets who happened to be powerful businessmen wanting
(02:22):
to somehow contribute. During the First World War, the United
States had recruited some businessmen to help them. The United
States was in the First World War for about eighteen
months nineteen seventeen to nineteen when the war ended in
November eighteen, and these guys were called dollar a year man.
Now they weren't really actually paid a dollar. This was
(02:42):
one of my well, it took me a long time
to get to the handle of I mean, it was
a nice way to define them, and they were in
fact referred to that. So when Canada started a similar
program of somehow asking businessmen to help them during the
war to run these new industries and to ways to
somehow produce the munition supplies and tanks, guns and everything
(03:06):
else that you can imagine a war needed, they sort
of this this system of dollary airmen recruitment was was born.
I came across after a lot doing a lot of research,
I finally came across a report that was put out
in nineteen forty nine showing that there were probably about
eight hundred of these businessmen who somehow contributed. Some for
(03:28):
some you know, maybe were on boards perhaps you know,
like your grandfather, but some were more involved and many
work for different kinds of industry. Wasn't only the munition
supply department that was the key gener you know factor
in running the war. Some worked for the War Times,
Trade and Price the Control Board, National Defense and other industries.
(03:50):
But the focus of my book is on these two
hundred and sixty somehow approximate men who worked under mainly
under CD how who is the powerful minister in Mackenzie
King's government during World War two, when the department was
established in officially in April nineteen forty and so these men,
(04:12):
you know, most of them were content to be honest,
were paid by their companies, which was in a sense
another act of patriotism. You know, these guys were like
preoccupied with the wharf, some of them for three four years.
They left their families, many of them didn't live Some
left and lived in Toronto, but and Montreal so they
could commute on weekends and so forth. The government covered
(04:36):
their expenses mainly, and their companies continually paid them. But
there was obviously a sacrifice because they were giving up
leadership that a lot of them were CEOs or vice presidents,
and they were giving up their responsibilities. So their companies,
the people who left behind, had to carry the weight
and know that in itself. But so I would say
(04:57):
that they and one dollar year man actually died during
a journey to He was on a ship that was
torpedoed by the Germans. So he gave the ultimate sacrifice.
And I think out of the two hundred and sixty men,
one actually was paid a dollar a year. But the
name stuck. It was very symbolic of their of their service.
(05:21):
They didn't. You know, it's interesting. I have to say
that I didn't know a lot about them before I
was recruited to write the book by Barlow Books. Sarah
Scott is the publisher of the company, and her grandfather,
Douglas Ambridge, was a big dollar a year man. He
later ran Abbotiv Forrest Pulp and Paper and in fact
saved the company from bankruptcy. So he was a big guy.
(05:43):
And she had always had in mind a book. And
because I had written a book about Mackenzie King, I
was somewhat familiar. But I and in fact I had
written about some of these people. I looked back when
I was doing the research, but I didn't really I
have to say that I didn't really understand how big
it was and how the whole system worked.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Eight d eight hundred people.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
That's a hacked well, yeah, I mean, the focus of
the book is certainly not an eight hundred people. It's
really probably on about fifty or sixty of these guys
who were the key heads of the production agencies and
controls groups that how created. You know, you have to
(06:24):
I think the main thing in this story is you
have to keep in mind it happened during a war.
The king government was operating in a semi authoritarian fashion.
Decisions were made by orders and Council. The government didn't
have to go to they I mean they did explain
themselves and House of Commons was going on. The government
explained what they were doing and the opposition had the
(06:45):
right to question them. The media had a right to
comment and they did. But ultimately as the system evolved,
it sort of evolved in the late nineteen thirties into
eventually diminuitions and supply through a couple phases, and the
decision was made that if you're going to have these
large expenders of money, because King Mackenzie King was very
(07:08):
hesitant at first, he didn't want to spend any money
and he thought, you know, he and in fact, of
course Canada spent billions of dollars billions of dollars building
building up these things and how how are you going
to make so much? Britain was in desperate need of
all these things, who's going to make them? You have
to somehow convince either private companies to make them these
(07:32):
munitions as in take over some of these companies, and
or or you had to create your own companies, which
they did all together. But it's still it's still an
amazing story. It sounds like.
Speaker 2 (07:44):
It's just an amazing story.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
And I think one that that we number one need
to hear and remember in regards to what happened during
World War Two, but it probably has a lot of significance. Today,
we're going to take a break for some messages and
back be back in just two minutes with our guests
talking about dollars year men and a book that he's
written about that topic.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Today, was everyone back at two.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Minute stream us live at SAGA nine six am dot C.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Wellcome back everyone to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour. I've
got Alan Levine with us tonight.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
He's written a book called The Dollar a Year Men,
and Allan is an award winning historian. He's chronicled the
inspiring story of many different people in Canada. I understand
that you wrote a really good book about Mackenzie King,
Is that correct?
Speaker 4 (08:43):
Right? Many years ago? Now? But yeah, I know I wrote.
There had been no real single biography of King, and
I decided to do that. I mean, it was possible
for a variety of readers.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
The true that he like talked to dogs and Buigi
Bo his dead mother's I mean.
Speaker 4 (09:00):
He well, it's true. He well, he loved his dogs,
he called all. He had three Irish terriers. They were
all named Pat Pat one, Pat two, Path three, Pat
Pat three outlived him. Pat one of the longest and
was his most loyal companion. But no, I mean, you
know he did. He was a very quirky man. We
(09:20):
know so much about King because he left this. The
most probably the most remarkable document in Canadian history is
King's Diary. Started writing in eighteen ninety three. The last
entry was close to t when he died in nineteen fifty.
I mean it is. I have to have to say
that it's probably thirty thousand pages. I have not read
every single entry, but thanks to the Library and Archives
(09:45):
Canada many years ago, someone first of all transcribed the
diary because it was written in King's weird handwriting, so
that would have been and then eventually they put the
diary on line before the When I first started doing
writing history in the nineties. I had to use King's
diary for a book I wrote about Prime Ministers of
Canada and the media, and it was on microfiche, which
(10:08):
was impossible to use because you had to know the
date you were looking for and you couldn't search it.
But when I started my project on King's die on King,
the diary was online and it allowed me to search
for dates names, so you know, I typed in something like,
you know, he was obsessed with his mother, so you know,
you type in the phrase dear mother and it comes
(10:29):
up like about a thousand times. But I mean he
was into spiritualism. I mean, that's why King such a strange,
interesting character. Had the diary been destroyed, which King was
ambiguous about it. In his will, he sort of wanted
to use but in a very respectful fashion, which in
the end, once it was released, once his executors decided
(10:50):
to release it, it wasn't It wasn't so used in
such a respectful fashion. People found out about his various
craziness and his you know, he was fascinated by the
images in his shaving cream ladder, and he used Ouiji boards,
and I mean he wasn't the only Canadian who believed
in spiritualism.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
One of the longest serving prime ministers.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
No, he was, and you know, and he had You
can't really talk about the nineteen period nineteen let's say,
nineteen twenty to nineteen fifty. He was the main central
person and he was not charismatic, and he somehow survived
for a.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Very How wouldn't get elected if he wasn't charismatic?
Speaker 4 (11:28):
Well, because in those days, I mean, people just perceive
politicians differently and the options. The trouble is the Conservatives
were led by some very I mean Arthur Meehan was
a very smart man, but he was very inflexible. King
just Canadians want, you know, the middle of the road.
They still do. I mean, who are the most successful?
(11:49):
Why does Mark Carney the Prime minister today and not
Pierre pauliev because he's he hugs the middle pauliav is
just a little bit too on the right. Canadians a
King discover. There's a great quote I have in the
book about you know, extreme politicians in Canada are not
successful and let's say in the United States. So King
(12:10):
understood that more than most. Plus the other thing King
had going for him. In those days, there was no
real nationalist party in Quebec. The province had sixty five
seats in every single election from nineteen twenty one to
King's last in the flight four forty five. He was
always winning like ninety to ninety five percent of those seats,
so he had a huge advantage that I mean he had.
(12:33):
He didn't speak French interestingly enough, probably probably the last
prime minister not to speak French. I don't know if
Lester Pearson did, but King King had a French lieutenant
like Ernest Law Point was a prompt Paul. They just
delivered Quebec to him. So he started off with sixty
five seats right away, and then all he needed was
some half of Ontario, which he got. And you know,
(12:54):
he wasn't all that successful frankly. From nineteen twenty his
first three elections were minority governments, and then in nineteen
thirty five he was out of power for five years.
Nineteen thirty five he was reelected and then and he
did perform well in World War Two obviously, and was
smart enough to enlist CD. How a businessman the only business.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Tell us a little bit about CD. How if you
could yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:17):
I mean, I alway had a book about CD how
I think about twenty years ago that was fascinating.
Speaker 4 (13:22):
Yeah, an old professor of mind, Robert Bob a story
in Robert Bothwell and William Kilburn wrote a biography of
how it's the only real There's another book about him too,
but it's not as good. You know, most people wouldn't
know who he is today, I'm sure.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
But a very important businessman.
Speaker 4 (13:40):
Yeah, yeah. He He was a civil engineer, American born,
ended up coming to Canada, ended up in Thunderbay or
what was thunder Bay later thunder Bay, and he started building.
He went into business and he started building elevators like
her huge terminal elevators, and he became very successfully either
(14:00):
through the depression and in somehow in about nineteen thirty four.
He was a very aggressive, you know, strong character. He
was enticed to go into politics. You know. The story
is he didn't want to waste his time in the
backbenches and he told that at a meeting. And I
don't know if it's mythical, but it probably is. But
(14:21):
he met Mackenzie King and said, okay, you know, I'll
run in the nineteen thirty five election as long as
you give me a cabinet position right away. So I
mean he did end up getting one. I don't know
if King actually if that threat was real or not.
But from there he sort of built up. And you know,
most of the people in the cabinet were lawyers or
other kinds of you know, writers or is how just
(14:44):
had he was rich had. He was a workaholic, you
know his faith. One of the good stories about him
is somehow I guess just before he went into politics.
You know, he came home from a long business trip
and his wife, he had a couple of kids. His
wife ushered him into the living room. Children would like
you to meet your father. But you know he he was.
(15:06):
He was He did not suffer fools, A one dollar
a year man, a lawyer. He asked how it asked
him to prepare a memo and the guy comes back,
it's like seven lines. How how looks at the memo? Good?
But next time make it four. You know that he
was he was that, but he he was He understood
(15:27):
that the bureaucracy, that what he took on the responsibility
of building up Canada's really nonexistent wartime economy. How are
you going to do this. Now, you know, you could
hire civil servants, or you could hire I suppose you
could hire businessmen and actually employ them, but that was
going to take too long. So they decided, as I said,
(15:50):
to to seek out businessmen. The CEOs like the head
of Ford to Canada and the time is Gunny Wallace Campbell.
Though he ended up not being a good dollar or megazine.
He really didn't understand the kind of dynamics that were
involved and he only lasted a short time. But Henry
Borden was a corporate lawyer from Toronto who was the
(16:11):
nephew of Sir Robert Burton, the prime minister in the world,
and he was probably the most important person, one of
the most important people. He was responsible for writing all
these orders in council with another guy from Montreal named
Robert A. C Henry, who also is an interesting character.
And then there was you know, there was this other
(16:33):
guy named Gordon Scott who's a Montreal accountant who's their
financial He's the guy that ended up getting killed in December.
The British were very they didn't know what they wanted
finnally enough. They actually didn't want Canada sort of competing
with British manufacturing even during the war when they needed
all this stuff, and the US was because of neutrality
(16:56):
laws couldn't necessarily supply the stuff that they had. And
so how in the midst of when when the German
German U boats were patrolling the Atlantic and destroying passenger
ships during the period, let's say from September nineteen forty
to December, there are several big ships and passengers including children,
(17:20):
were torpedoed and these people died. How decided he had
to go to London to talk to British politicians and
to figure out exactly what was going on. So he
brought Gordon Scott and E. P. Taylor, who was a
great Toronto entrepreneur and head of the Argus Corporation. He
was at thirty nine years old. He became a dollar
(17:41):
big dollar year then as well, and Billy Woodward, who
owned department stores of Vancouver. So they all went to Vancouver.
They all went on this ship that left New York
and about a week or ten days into the voyage,
German U boat torpedoed them. So how in the other
how how and would and Taylor survived, but Scott in
(18:04):
the rescue when the ship was being rescued, he got crushed,
and you know, it was a really sad thing. And
you know, the Globe and Mail at the time wrote
that he had died like any soldier on the field,
and I always thought that was a good analogy. But
he was only fifty three. And Henry Bordon is sort
of one of the I featured him a lot in
the book because he left a fantastic document, an unpublished
(18:29):
memoir that in fact, he wouldn't allow when Bothwell told
me that he wouldn't allow. When Bothwell was writing a
CD howbook, Burdon was still alive, but he wouldn't let
him read the whole thing. But Bordon died in nineteen
eighty nine and the memoir ended up in his papers
in Ottawa. So thanks to this, I came across a
(18:51):
master's thesis for a guy named Jeremy Stewart in the
University of Calgary had written about the Dollar a year man.
It was like the only thing I could really find,
and he knew about the Burden Memoir, and so I
got a hold of it. And you know, Burdon is
great because it you know, it gives you a real
personal account of how these guys operated, what they did,
(19:12):
the kind of problems that evolved, and the egos. You know,
because these businessmen all had egos. They operated in a
very pyramid structure.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
With them on top and so on top of the
civil service, like that was the civil service reporting to them.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
Well, no, the civil service, they were sort of independent
of that. I compare how to a snowplow parent. That's
what he was like. He like, he got all these guys,
he appointed to them to the head of agencies and boards.
I mean there was like seventeen major production boards things
in charge. Let's say aircraft. Ralph Bell was this you
(19:47):
know Brusque Nova Scotia businessman. He was put in charge
of aircraft production and literally, you know, built the aircraft
industry in Canada over a period of four years. I
mean it was impossible a tough guy to work with it.
Clearly brilliant and they did what they have to do
to make these planes. And they needed planes to train.
They were part of the British Commonwealth training program that
(20:10):
with Britain, so they built all these things. But you
know how how somehow he against the frankly criticism by
the opposition, I mean, the financial posts and Global mill
were very critical. Uh, these businessmen taking over the government.
There's they answer to no one. But how you know,
even his own colleagues in King's cabinet said how he
(20:32):
was building his private little government, and how just sort
of dismissed it all, and he said, I have a
job to do the war, you know. And the war
was on and there was urgency that I don't think
we can really understand today. I mean, you know, then
they they they feared the Nazis and they you know,
he he figured out ways for them to do what
(20:53):
they had to do and and stepped in. They but
they answered to him and and many times he did
claim down on them, and he certainly didn't like when
his authority was challenged. Which I have another story I
can tell you if you.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
Like, please, how would how well?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Okay, So there was this guy named hr McMillan or
Harvey McMillan. He was a BC lumber guy. There's a
company called McMillan Blowdell that he was the McMillan and
I that he started the company in the twenties. I mean,
he was very smart. He was one of the first
person people in Cany went to Yale University that forestry
management started his own company literally from he had no money.
(21:32):
He grew up in a very poor he built himself up,
self made man, very smart I understood, I mean, I
found one of the few people who actually wrote about how,
you know, the Nazis are a danger to the world,
and how recruited him to look after timber. There was
also a need to control resources. So aside from the
(21:55):
production agencies, the other big thing they created was a
control board where they had people who looked after every
resource you could possibly imagine, you know, gasoline and because
eventually the amount of gasoline that people could buy for
their private cars was control. You just couldn't buy tin.
Rubber was a huge you know, so people couldn't buy
(22:15):
you know, the spare tires, and that's another good story.
They ended up building a massive factory to create synthetic rubber,
you know, every every possible kinds of resource, so they
had controllers would obviously was necessary for building planes and
huts and houses and everything else. So this so how
McMillan became the timber controller and did a good job
(22:38):
any sort of in Ottawa during the period around nineteen
forty forty one when you know, it took a while
for this kind of production to get going. You know,
Ralph Bell was appointed, for example, in June nineteen forty,
but the first planes weren't really made until early nineteen
forty one. I mean, it took five six months to
get this. They had to, you know, even if you
(22:59):
took over a fact like factories that made refrigerators and
ovens and stoves are now making munitions and aircraft. But
it took a while to retool the whole factory, to
figure out out what to do and what they needed
to do, and get and get the engines and the parts,
and some of them were American and and and the
British kept changing their mind a hundred times, you know,
(23:19):
you know, and some of these planes, you know, I
think a Lancaster plane had about fifty thousand parts, and
and and and so so how how did what he
had to do? And as is, McMillan somehow started challenging
how his authority, He started publicly criticizing how sort of
(23:45):
supported by a few people in Ottawa, how was away
in Britain at the time on this trip that I
told you about. And McMillan made a couple he talked
too much. Some of the good other resources that I
used were the records left by journalists Financial Post. The
(24:05):
best the best UH documents are by a guy named
Grant Dexter, who was the Winnipeg Free Press's correspondent Nonadawa.
He left the most fantastic memos. I mean, he had
unfettered access to the government. The Free Press was very liberal.
He talked to the cabinet every day. They told them
(24:27):
all their secrets. He knew everything, and so he left
these fantastic memos in which he talks about who's going
doing what and and so he tracks this whole story
and McMillan eventually, you know, how was smart McMillan. He
thought McMillan wanted his job, and he eventually McMillan lost
the argument and was shipped up to Montreal to run
something else. And so he but but he was you know,
(24:49):
he was banquet for How. He threw a banquet for
How and called how the greatest organizer candidate ever had,
So you know, I mean, he lost the argument, but
he but he he didn't he didn't lose faith in
the government. So it's just, you know, not many people
challenged how and he and and in fact he was
(25:11):
so mad ones How that he was going to quit,
and Mackenzie King couldn't afford to do that, and so
he he he talked him out of that.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
Is there a comparable in Canadian history to see how?
Speaker 4 (25:27):
I mean there were I mean that's a tough question.
I mean not in because because the war. Again, you know,
there's nobody like him that operated semi independently. I mean,
how later became up until he lost the election in
nineteen fifty seven when deefen Baker started. John Diefenbaker was
(25:47):
elected to a minority government and then a majority a
year later. How is how his career came to an
end in nineteen fifty seven, and he died several years later.
I mean, there were other other big people in you
know who took over portfolios during the Trudeau years, you know,
guys like Mark Leland and John Cretien and people like that.
(26:10):
And there have been other business people in running departments,
but no one, I don't think of how stature to
be honest again, But you know, again, the war changed
the way in which every the cabinet was operated, and
what kinds of decisions you know when when how I
wanted to spend money, he just spent money, even if
(26:32):
the finance minister was yelling about it. And trust me,
they did. You know this guy Wallace Campbell who had
who was one of the first real dollars a year men.
You know, he came to Ottawa, he was head of Ford.
No one told him what to do. He said, I
want a hundred million dollars. Is in nineteen thirty nine,
I want a hundred million dollars to do what I want. Well,
the finances were not giving you one hundred million dollars
(26:53):
and it took a little while for that system to evolve. Eventually,
How was allowing these guys to spend a lot of money.
But and it was necessary. I mean, you know you
had to. They also created Crown corporations, you know of
if a company wasn't operating to their satisfaction when they
had to build Lancaster airplanes for example, there is a
(27:15):
company in Malton, Ontario or missis Sauga. I think that's
where you're located near there? Right? Is that right?
Speaker 2 (27:22):
You're the show is broadcast from this yeah.
Speaker 4 (27:26):
Right, so near I guess where the Pearson Airport is today?
But you know, they walked in and they were having
labor issues. Late labor was another you know these guys,
most of these businessmen had no patients for unions, and
there were labor issues during the war, several big strikes.
You know, these businessmen. The first response was, let's call
(27:46):
in the army. But the army did not do that
kind of stuff. And they went in took over this
plant that was part of a larger company, and they
created a Crown corporation called Victory Aircraft, and they put
in their own men and they started building Lancaster airplanes
on that Lancaster was a huge bomber that that was
really successful during the war. And that's what they did.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Mostly built in Canada, was it not?
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Yes, yeah, no, it was entirely that's right. It was
entirely built in Canada. They had ants and trainers. I
have to say that my knowledge of aircraft production. How
did they get you substantially?
Speaker 2 (28:23):
How'd they get them to Britain? Did they fly them
or did they share?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
They put them on ships and mostly flew them. Yes,
I think that's probably the way they because on a
ship you'd have to take it apart. In the early days,
just is another great story. I mean, I saw this
in a movie and I didn't actually believe it was true,
but it was true. The Americans, like early nineteen forty,
(28:48):
before Canadian airplane production got they had British had ordered
a lot of planes from the United States aircraft producers
in places like California. But the laws, as I said,
the New Reality Lies, forbid pilots from flying into a
country that was at war, including Canada. So they build
airstrips in Montana and in North Dakota near Winnipeg, like
(29:12):
one hundred kilometers from Winnipeg, where I'm located, and they
have farmers in these towns and the Emerson, Manitoba. This
farmer used a team of horses to drag the plane
across the border, so that that was the only way
they could be pushed, either pushed across or dragged across.
(29:32):
And and I have a picture of a farmer doing this.
You got like three dollars a plane to drag them
across the border, and comes good ship them or fly
them to London.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
A great story.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
I know we're chiying tonight with with an author of
an incredibly interesting book. Please tell us what's the name
of the book and where can people the.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Dollar a year? Man? How the best business brains in
Canada help the Canada when the Second World War, how
referred to them as the best business brains in Canada.
That's where That's where we got the subtitle.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
We're gonna take a break for some messages and come
back in just two minutes with Alan living and.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I'm gonna ask him, is there any lesson here for today?
Stay with us? Everyone back in two.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
Minutes, No radio, no problem stream is live on SAGA
nine sixty am dot C.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
A welcome back everyone to the Brian Corombie Radio Hour.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
You know what, I think that remembered day is a
great day for us to think back and remember the
sacrifices that our forefathers are, our.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
Four bearers.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Incurred to to win wars, to establish our freedoms, et cetera.
But then I think Alan Levine in his book is
also a great way for us to remember the contribution
of the rest of society, because I think the rest
of the society, the political establishment, business people, etc. People
that were just buying government securities to help finance the
war effort, people that were rationed.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I had an aunt that volunteered and ended up getting.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Shipped up to Alaska to work on the Alaska Highway
because of some work that was being done at that time,
because people were concerned about what would happen if the
Nazis invaded through invaded North America through Alaska, and so
I think there were a lot of people that made
a strong contribution. Alan, I wonder if you could take
a step back though for a second, because I understand
(31:40):
that numerous people have read your book and have commented
about how today is a comparable situation. And I understand
that actually former Prime Minister Jean Creca has written a
forward saying this is an important book, a reminder that
when Canada is under assault, good men and women step
up to serve. This is what happened in World War Two,
(32:00):
that is what is happening now. A lot of people
think that there is now a similar situation in Canada
with threats from Donald Trump, with the terriff wars, and
also a big opportunity with dramatic increases in events spending
because of meeting the two percent or three and a
half percenter. Some people are talking about five percent potential
(32:24):
of GDP being sent on defense I've interviewed a couple
of people recently that say that we need coos in
our different ministries, that we don't have people that are
really good at operating, and we have great people that
are good at making policies, be good at making regulations,
but not necessarily people that are really good at operations.
(32:45):
And they take a look at cd how and the
Dollar year Men as an example of the kind of
business involvement that we need to have. There was a
great article, very big article in the Global Maale just
I think a year ago, that said the biggest difference
between the Trudeau ara and past era is that there
weren't very many business people in cabinet. And historically there
were always good political people, but also good business people.
(33:07):
And they look at the combination of Paul Martin, of
Jean Creccia, of Brian mulroney, of numerous Jim Flaherty, of
people both political and both political parties that had great
business backgrounds that joined cabinet and partnered.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
Up with potentially prime ministers, and then we don't have
that today.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
So I ask you, sir, given what you've learned, what
you've written, what you've researched about World War two and
the dollar of your men. If we have to ramp
up spending dramatically on defense, if we have to think
about diversifying our economy, if we need to think about
a protectionist United States, should we be thinking about something
(33:44):
similar to Dollar of your men, something similar to having
business people get far more involved in Canadian government.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Yeah, I mean I think there's much to that. I
don't think it could work in the same way, and
it's certainly not as many people. I have to say.
You know, once the war ended, how continually did recruit
He was in charge of trade and commerce and reconstruction
of the country, and he actually still used people that
(34:11):
were technically dollar a year. And I found a story
about a guy named Bert Robertson from Montreal. He was
the manager of the Dominion Bridge Company, and he had
been recruited in June nineteen fifty four to become the
director of Defense Production Department. And he was probably stayed
there for about a year, and he was probably the
(34:32):
last so called how dollar a year meant? I think
business people I have and in fact I an anticipation
of you asking this question, I have been noticing that Carney,
the Prime Minister Carney has in fact been a recruiting
businessman for just what you're talking about. But these people
(34:54):
are not in a sense volunteering their service or staying
with their company who's paying them. The government is that
really employing them. But you know, the best and the
best example just recently, Carnian announced something called the Defense
Investment Agency that's over seen by Secretary of the State
for Defense and Procurement Stephen Feurer. And he hired this
(35:18):
guy named Doug Gooseman who's the new CEO of this
Investment agency, and he's the former deputy chair of RBC
as well as a managing director of Goldman Sacks. I mean,
the interesting thing is, and so there's a classic Now
he's probably getting paid a huge amount of money to
do this. You know, these guys, the amount of money
(35:39):
they made and profits and so forth are there are
their personal interests were not something that these during a
war that these guys cared about all that much. Some
of them in fact didn't. Even a guy named Harry Carmichael,
who ran production it was a big Ontario dollar are man,
he wouldn't even take expensive So you covered that himself
to school, mister Guzman is hired. But the interesting thing
(36:02):
is the agency. This procurement agency will only oversee procurements
valued at one hundred million dollars or more. I mean,
in the nineteen thirties some of the dollar here men
needed permission to spend five thousand dollars. So it's times
have change. But I do also know that there are
other I mean, there are other people involved in the government.
(36:25):
Michael Sabia, who was the Clerk of the Privy Council,
used to be a CEO of Hydro Quebec. Marc Andre
Blanchard was appointed Chief of Staff in June twenty twenty five.
I mean he was a big Quebec lawyer. Don Ferrell
who was appointed CEO of major projects in Calgary, the
Spearhead Nation building projects. She was a big CEO and
(36:49):
board chair of a trans Mountain corporation. And Timothy Hodgson,
who is appointed Minister of Energy and Natural Resources. He
was a CEO of Goldman Sachs. So you do have
because of Arnie's background, I think you do have more
businessmen contributing as either cabinet ministers or as paid you know,
not necessarily civil servants, but you know, someone like Guzman
(37:11):
is a good example. In fact, someone called him the
article that I found is and they sort of compared
Guzman to a dollar a modern dollar year. Man, I
don't you know the kind of system that existed for
the five years of the war. I just I don't
think could be replicated unless there was some massive political
Oh let me.
Speaker 3 (37:31):
Let me, let me, let me stop you on that,
because I think you've given us some really good example.
So I went to school with Doug Guzman, I worked
with him. He was a relationship banker that covered me
when he worked with with Royal Bank, and some people
thought he was one of the potential successors to be
the CEO of Royal Bank. So a very capable individual.
(37:51):
Hodgson similarly, was a banker that represented that was the
representative to to me at one point in time in
my career. In his career, Michael Sabia has got an
incredible background that you mentioned hydro Quebec, but he was
also the case to the Poe.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
You know, he's got probably one of the.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Best business backgrounds of anyone in Canada now running the
Clerk of the Civil Service, of the Clerk of the
Privy Council. I can't think other than World War Two
and the Dollar. You're men of any other time in
Canadian history where sech senior business people joined the government.
Speaker 4 (38:29):
Can you No, that's probably true. You know, most most politicians, frankly,
if you look back at their occupations, most of them
are lawyers or a lot of them, some some business people.
But no, I would agree. I mean, I think that
has to do with Mark Carney's perspective and where he's
from and what his world and what his experiences, and
(38:51):
he's and he's smart enough to know that some of
these people know what they're doing. So sure, I mean,
I mean, I think that in recruiting these people into
the cabin that are into high level positions, but they're answerable,
you know, they're not they're not independent. They have to
answer to a cabinet minister, and so they don't operate,
as I said, in the same kind of semi independent way.
Speaker 3 (39:14):
So you've you've studied the dollar your men during World
War Two, when you've described a situation where CD how
was very authoritarian and uh and was running things can't
work with our current political system that the procedure oriented
policy oriented regulation, can it work?
Speaker 2 (39:32):
Or do we need to create a new system.
Speaker 4 (39:34):
Well, I mean, you don't want the World War two system,
you know, is a semi dictatorship, frankly, and I don't
think anybody in Canada would want to operate under that system.
So these guys are you know that anybody today recruited
it has to the system is much more bureaucraftic.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
So let's pretend that Mark Carney invites you to Ottawa
and asks you to sit down with Hodson, Sabbia Guzman
and the the lady I can't remember her name that's
running project's office in Calgary, who has an incredibly impressed
plumer as well, and says, based on your knowledge and
experience of World War two and the dollar year men,
(40:12):
what advice would.
Speaker 2 (40:13):
You give these people as to how to get things
done in Ottawa? What would you say?
Speaker 4 (40:18):
Well, I mean they probably could use the help of
other business people that they maybe they could create boards
and committees as advisories. But again, you know, the world
we live in is much more complex. There's the high
degree of scrutiny and social media criticism. And you know,
(40:41):
I don't think that that the opposition and the press
and the Canadians would want wealthy businessmen coming in operating
sort of independently and running things. I mean, it sounds
even if they produced positive results, and I think you
just get the backlash and it's just not how democratic
parliamentary system is always run. So so I mean, there's
(41:04):
certainly a place for these people, and I'm sure that
that Guzman will not be the last person to be
involved in something like this. But again, you know, it's
it's under a system in which he's answerable to a
cabinet minister directly and in which everything is transparent, where
they're not. You know, in World War Two, Henry Burden
(41:27):
and R. A. C. Henry and and and Gordon Scott.
You know, they they all lived in the Chateaul laure
A hotel. They would they would meet every night and
draw up orders in council, get how to sign them
and do what they wanted to do. No one, no
one not told them what to do. No one asked
any questions. You know, if if they needed to take
(41:48):
over a company, they did, and that's what they did.
You just couldn't do that.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Today, Okay, So let me push you on this a
little bit more if I could.
Speaker 3 (41:56):
So there's this book that does the rage in the
United States, at least in progressive of politics called abundance.
That the argument is that progressive politicians particularly, but governments
in general, have become really good at regulation, red tape
and stopping things and thinking about you know, pollution and
climate change issues and stuff like that, planning issues, housing,
(42:20):
et cetera, but terrible at building things.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
And the argument is.
Speaker 3 (42:27):
Is that if we don't start getting better at building
things and all we do is regulate, we're not going
to be successful. We're not going to build the homes,
the hospitals, the healthcare system, the everything we want, the infrastructure,
if we don't get out of just regulating and start building. So, sir,
please tell me if all of the things, the social media,
the opposition, the reporting, the cabinet ministers that you talk
(42:47):
about is true, how do we get out of our
way and start building things?
Speaker 4 (42:53):
Again, There's a tough question. I mean, you have to
have the drive. You have to have a drive coming
from the top. Carnegie's attitude, the attitude of the cabinet
ministers have to generate that kind of building. I mean,
I think that you'll see that even with these kinds
of new agencies. I mean, you know, the trouble is
things take time, whereas during World War Two they didn't
(43:15):
have the time, so they pushed it and circumended rules,
didn't care about budgets and you know, government that the
parliamentary government is slow by design, and I'm not sure
that's a bad thing necessarily, but it's true that things
get that red tape does hamper developments and construction. And
you know, I live in a city that is so
(43:39):
overregulated into they you know, it takes a major road
here needs to be widened. It's probably a twenty year
debate and they still haven't done anything about it. I mean,
it's just at a local level like that because of
the various factors involved. So expenditures of public money is
(44:00):
is a tricky thing and I think that I think
that's part of the problem. But if you have the
drive from the top, and you know, again, you know,
the government is huge. Canada was eleven million people back
in the nineteen forties. I mean we're like what thirty
something more than thirty million today. I mean there's a
lot more social problems and other issues that they people
(44:22):
just back then didn't have to worry about. So, as
I said, it's much more complicated.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
I think we're chatting with historian Alan Levine tonight about
a book that he's written called The Dollar a Year Men.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Where's it available? Where can people get it?
Speaker 4 (44:37):
It's available at all bookstores and any Amazon. Well you shouldn't, actually,
I guess where his Canadian shouldn't buy and books from Amazon,
but they can if they want, and all independent bookstores
and chains and so forth. Anywhere you can buy a book,
it'll be available.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
The Dollar a Year Man by Alan Levin.
Speaker 3 (44:56):
We're going to take a final break and come back
with some concluding comments in just two minutes.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
Stay with this, everybody back.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Into stream us live at SAGA nine am dot C.
Speaker 3 (45:09):
A Welcome back, everyone to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour.
We're chatting tonight, really in honor of Rememberance Day, with
historian Alan Levine about a book that he's written called
(45:29):
The Dollar a Year Man, which has written about people
that served the government of the war efforts during World
War Two, reporting to cd how Mackenzie King in regards
to organizing our industry, organizing ammunitions, organizing our resources.
Speaker 2 (45:42):
To fight the war. Alan, you know you've mentioned the
word service several times. What is this concept? Of service,
service to country, service to I guess.
Speaker 4 (45:54):
I mean, these people grew up in a time when
patriotism meant something. I mean, I was thinking about this,
you know, until the business with them, they kind of
backlash against the US. Patriotism was sort of considered not cool.
But it's a little bit more so. It's sort of
been reborn, I suppose to a certain extent. But these
(46:15):
guys were They didn't do it for money. They served
because they failed. It was their patriotic duty to do so.
And they're very loyal, I mean, you know, and they
were loyal to Britain too. I mean, to be a
good Canadian back then was being welled to Britain. But
you know, as one example, one of the young dollar
year men that was Henry Bordon, recruited from Montreal. I
(46:36):
think Frank Covert, or it could have been a Halifax
was a guy named Frank Covert. He later became a big,
huge corporate lawyer in Canada, but during because of circumstances,
he was working in Ottawa in Borden's legal department and
decided at the age of thirty four that he wanted
to actually enlist and fight. Initially, CD how and other
(46:58):
people told them he couldn't do it any he was
a bit too old to fly airplanes. But he ended
up somehow using his influence to enlist and I think
became a navigator, and he left his company, his flaw
firm was not too happy about it. And then for
a good three years probably he served overseas flying missions,
(47:19):
bombing missions and so forth, and survived and then came
back and re established his career. So he sort of
he was the only dollar year man, and I know
the other ones were probably too old to do that,
but he was a young guy and he was the
only person that I could find that actually did that,
So that story was a bit unique, and he took
that patriotism. But I mean, I think that's the driving
(47:39):
force behind the whole books. It's that these people, because
no one forced them to do this, they didn't have to.
I mean, how didn't like taking no for an answer,
and sometimes these people did refuse, and How would berate
them until they did, and they just they just saw
it as something important and doing their duty to a country.
I just don't think. I think that people are a
(48:02):
bit more selfish today, and it would have to be
something pretty bad and urgent for people to up just
change their lives and you know, not see their families
and children and so forth, and moved to another city
and take on these huge responsibilities.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
Well, Alan Levina, really thank you for joining us, and
thank you very much for writing this book. From a
personal standpoint, my own grandfather, Hugh Crombie, served in World
War One, got wounded in Vimy Ridge and I've got
one of his medals on my wall. And then during
World War Two he was a dollar yearman. He was
(48:42):
in something called the War Munitions Board with a best
friend of his by the name of Brophy, and the
two of them, I've.
Speaker 2 (48:49):
Got a picture of them receiving.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
A award at some point in time from Prince Philip
just before he passed away in the sixties. He was
head of the Canadian Manufacturers Association businessmen in Montreal. And
you know what, I don't know much more than what
I just said, other than the fact that he did
these things, and I got these medals and I got
these pictures, and so actually being able to find out
(49:13):
a little bit more about what these dollar your men
did and how they thought about serving their country and
the role they played in our war effort would be amazing.
And so I'm going to go get your book and
read it because it sounds like it's going to be interesting.
And then I'm going to start to see if I
can search his name in any of these archives that
(49:33):
you've mentioned, see if I can find some more history
about Hugh Arthur crom because tomorrow I'm going to remember him,
and I'm going to remember the stories that you have
told us, and I'm going to remember the sacrifice that
so many people, not just the people that served, but
you know, unquestionably the people that served, but also the
people that were back home fighting the war effort in
their own special way. So, Alan Levine, the dollar of
(49:54):
your men, thanks so much.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
For joining us.
Speaker 4 (49:56):
I really appreciate you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
That's our show for tonight. Everybody, thank you for joining.
And I remind you I'm on every Monday through Friday
at six o'clock on nine to sixty am. You can
stream me online even from Winnipeg at triblew Saga nine
sixty am dot CA. My podcast and videos go up
on my website Briancromby dot com, and on social media,
my YouTube channel, and on podcast servers as soon as
the radio show gets podcast to air.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Goodnight Everybody, and I don't think it's happy. Remember today?
Speaker 3 (50:21):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (50:22):
Let's remember on your remembers day.
Speaker 1 (50:24):
Good Night everybody, no radio, no problem. Stream is live
on SAGA nine sixty am dot C
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