Tonight on The Brian Crombie Hour, Brian is joined by historian, author, and teacher J.D.M. Stewart, one of Canada’s foremost experts on our prime ministers, to discuss his insightful book "The Prime Ministers: Canada’s Leaders and the Nation They Shaped." Together they explore what history can teach Mark Carney — and any future leader — about governing a complex, diverse country like Canada. Drawing from the examples of past prime ministers, Stewart highlights four timeless lessons in leadership. Stewart and Brian discuss how these qualities — pragmatism, teamwork, courage, and inspiration — remain essential to leadership today, and what kind of vision could once again unite and propel our country forward.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
SAGA nine sixty am or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour.
I've got a really interesting guest for us tonight. Who's
a writer. His he's historian, he's a teacher, he's a
public speaker, and he's an author of a book called
The Prime Ministers, Canada's Leaders and the Nation They Shaped.
I became aware of him when he wrote an interesting
article recently in The Toronto Star about what Mark Karney
(00:40):
could learn from the Prime Ministers. JD. M. Stewart is
our guest today. He's a writer and historian, as I mentioned,
and he's one of Canada's foremost experts on Canadian prime ministers.
His commentaries regularly appear in The Globemail, The Hub, the
Literary Review of Canada. As I mentioned the Toronto Star.
He often appears on television and radio programs where he
(01:00):
can give us a historical perspective on the issues of
the day, connecting them to his knowledge of prime ministers.
James previous book, Being Prime Minister, was on The Hill
Times Top one hundred pick. He's inspired also a generation
of students during his thirty year career teaching history to
high school students. In twenty and twenty twelve, he was
awarded a Queen Elizabeth to Diamond Jubilee Medal for his
(01:23):
contribution to history education in Canada. JDM, Welcome to.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
The show, Brian, Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
My pleasure. So I read this article that I found
really interesting that Mark Kearney could actually learn something from
his predecessors. Do you think he learns it? Did he
listen to you? I don't know, me a call and
say tell me what I should learn.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
He probably should give me a call.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
I'd love to have a meeting with the Prime Minister
and talk about what he could learn from his predecessors.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
And of course there's.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
A lot that can be learned from previous Prime ministers,
just as in anyone's job, you could learn by the
people who came before you. And I just pointed out
a few different areas where he could learn from others.
And I don't know how many examples you want to
get into, but you know, one of them I talked
about was pragmatism and being a pragmatic leader is pretty
(02:15):
essential in a country like Canada because of the diverse
elements of the country from east to west, and you know,
we have a French speaking population, we have many immigrants
from around the world and different regions with different interests,
so pragmatism is a very important attribute to have in
(02:35):
Mackenzie King is the Prime minister that I cited in
my article as an exemplar for him to follow in
terms of being pragmatic.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
You know, I found that interesting because I understand that,
you know, the Liberal Party in Ontario fragmented over this
issue of conscription and there was, you know, big debates
back and forth, and you in the article quote King
is saying not necessarcessarily conscription, but conscription if necessary. And
then you talk about him having and I didn't know this,
(03:05):
he actually had a referendum. Is that what happened?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Well, he had a plebiscite.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
So a plebiscite means that the government isn't bound by
the results, whereas a referendum is a binding result. But
this was one of the ways that Mackenzie King was
a bit wily in his ways because he had made
a promise to Canadians that he would not invoke conscription,
and the reason for that was of the divisions that
(03:32):
it caused.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
During the First World War.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
So he made that promise, but then it became apparent
that conscription may well be necessary, and so his way
out of it was to hold a plebiscite, not asking
whether Canadians agreed with conscription or not, but whether they
would agree to release the government from their promise not
to bring in conscription. So it was a little bit
of an incremental way of trying to get out of
(03:55):
the predicament he had got himself in. Interestingly, the the
plebiscite did return strong numbers in favor of releasing the
government from the promise, but it also returned strong numbers
from Quebec not wanting the government to be released from
the province. But at least it brought the issue forward
and gave King somewhat of a mandate to bring in
(04:17):
conscription later. But also he knew he would have to
mollify Quebec in some fashion, and I think he lost
a couple of Quebec cabinet ministers over the issue. But
it's another example of using a little bit of pulling
the levers of government in order to sometimes buy time,
kick something down the road, give a little bit of
(04:38):
time for the air to come out of the issue.
These are some strategies that Mackenzie King was very good
at using.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Well, I've got a personal connection with the whole issue.
My great uncle was Premier of Ontario at the time
and lost because of the issue on conscription, and he
wanted to stay. He wanted to support Mackenzie King, Harry
Nixon was his name, and ended up losing because of
a fracture and his party where his party wasn't a
(05:07):
supportive necessarily of Mackenzie King's PLUBISA four in support for conscription,
which is kind of an interesting connection. You then quote
a poem. Yes, and I thought this poem was wonderful.
Do you have it handy? Could you read it?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Or you know, I've just included a stanza. This is
the F. R. Scott poem called w l MK.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
But if you want to read the standsa that you
have there, then let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
He skillfully avoided what was wrong without saying what was right,
and never let his on the one hand know what
his on the other hand was doing.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Right.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
And it goes on also to say never do by halves,
which can be done by quarters.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
So this poem come out in nineteen fifty seven.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Fr Scott was a famous constitutional lawyer out of McGill
constitutional scholar and he, you know, the poem is a
bit of a send up of Mackenzie King. But I
first came across that poem when I was taking my
intro to Canadian literature class at McGill University and this
(06:17):
poem was in the anthology. It's in a lot of
anthologies for Canadian poetry, and it's a wonderful critique of
Mackenzie King and speaks to this way of governing that
he you know, it wasn't the most exciting thing.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
I think.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
There's another line in there that the height of his
ambition was to pile a royal commission on top of
a parliamentary investigation or something.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Like this, and it just got it that King's ability
to obfuscate a little bit.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
There's another line in the poem about postpone postponed delay
and these are the things that King did in order
to you know, he would say, sometimes being a successful
prime minister's not the things that you do, it's the
things that you don't do. So he was very calculating
and strategic in the way that he ran the country.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well, I'll give you only my interesting antidote that might
antidote that might be helpful. I met with a former
prime minister, Brammlroney at one point in time, and he
said that the benefit of his implementation of the free
trade Agreement was that Number one, it was commissioned by
Pierre Trudeau Trudeau senior. That it was led by Ronald MacDonald,
(07:30):
a former Liberal finance minister. It was twenty six volumes
of study. They traveled across the country with a royal commission,
and then he had a election debate and an election.
There was really a referendum on free trade, so he said,
even though the country was split and there were real
issues on both sides, when I won that election, after
(07:51):
that process, led by a liberal prime minister, a Liberal
finance minister, twenty six volumes, et cetera, et cetera, it
was a slam dunk. I could implement it because anyone
felt it. He said. I did the opposite thing on
the GST, which I'll live to regret, because smart people
came up with the GST and implemented it right away
and I went down to the most substantial defeat in
electoral politics.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah, it's sometimes timing and methods are everything.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
But the McDonald Commission gave Maulroney a lot of cover
on free trade.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
But you know, Mulrooney's been vindicated on the GST by
economists and you know, anyone who knows anything about taxation.
When you take a tax that's hidden and inhibits manufacturing
and then you put it as a sales tax that
everybody can see, maybe people don't like it, but it
actually turned out to be very good for the Canadian
economy and good for good tax policy.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Then he said, and this was after he was no
longer elected. I met him at a wedding and I
had a nice little chat with him off to the
side of a wedding, and he said, the smartest economic
thing and the stupidest political thing I did was the GST.
The smartest political thing and the stupidest econom thing that
Stephen Harper did was take two points off of the GST.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
You know, that's a good one because whenever people think
about the holes in the fiscal capacity of the federal government,
everybody wishes that those two points were back there. That
Stephen Harper took off, and I wonder if they'll ever
be a prime.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Minister with the courage to say we need to add.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
One back, or we need to add two back, because
that revenue has been essential to a lot of the
things that the Canadian government does, and Harper did something
that was so easy, and it'll take a lot of
courage if anyone ever tries to bring back the two
points that he took off.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Your second point was teamwork. And you know, it's interesting
because I think a lot of people remember Jean Coutcher
and Paul Martin working well together. You know, some people
think that Trudeau and Turner worked well together. I'm not
sure whether that's the case or not. But we did
have in the Trudeau era a lot of cabinet ministers
that I think we can remember, and during the Morony era,
(10:01):
you know Flaherty and other people Wilson that we can remember. Lately,
we've seemed to have had pmos, prime ministers and even leaders,
you know, Pierre Pouliev I don't know how many people
could quote some of the other members of the front
bench of the Conservative Party. So teamwork is that something
from a Bygun era or is that something that is
(10:23):
still you know, important today when when you know Justin
Trudeau seemed to have been a man unto himself, Harper
seemed to be a man to himself. You know, Carnie
seems to, as you've quote in your article, seems to
not have learned the lesson of teamwork, and certainly Pierre
Pouliev seems to be a man of himself.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yeah, I think I don't know if I will throw
it into the dustbin of history just yet, because I
think a lot of prime ministers have proven to be
very successful by running a team.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
And let's face it, politics is.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Is teamwork, and you're only going to be as strong
as as your team is, but you do have to
give them some power.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And you know, Jean Kretschaan.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Was my singular one of my examples there because he
was really, if we're going to call it old school principles,
you know, he learned government by being in the cabinets
of Lester B.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Pearson.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
So he saw the importance of the civil service, the
importance of a cabinet that's allowed to do its power,
and his cabinet really adored him. His caucus adored him.
Teamwork is also about caucus, and I didn't get deep
into caucus on that section, but prime ministers who look
after their caucus pay attention to them, they benefit from
that and they recruit loyal soldiers from that. And Kretschian
(11:45):
was excellent, excellent at that. Brian mulrooney is probably the
sinquann of caucus managers. And you know, phoning people when
the head a caucus member who had a wife maybe
that was in the hospital, and Mulrooney's on the phone saying,
I hope everything's okay. You know, he did those kinds
of things all over the place. And now we know
that Justin Trudeau. A lot of things are coming out
(12:06):
about Justin Trudeau that cabinet ministers had trouble just getting
meetings with him. That should never happen in cabinet government.
And then so you can imagine what caucus members may
have felt like who could barely get time with the
prime minister. So I think it's pretty clear that the
most successful prime ministers will treat their teams as important
parts of the success of the government, and those who
(12:30):
ignore that, well, you know, I guess some will have
some success. But you know, if you look at the
Justin Trudeau and Stephen Harper examples. I don't know that
there's people running out saying how great they were as
team leaders.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
So, you know, one of my favorite books and concept
is Team of Rivals that talked about Lincoln and how
he invited in the people that were against them. And
you know, many people say that one of Obama's most
brilliant decisions was inviting Hillary Clinton and to be SEC
criteria state. We don't have a lot of examples of
that in Canada of late. You know, lots of people
(13:05):
have suggested that Pierre Pouliev was brilliant in in really
creating a party that was his but excluded Jean Chardt
and some of the other people that you know, were
of the Red Tory ilk. You know, Christian Friedland was
the only rival that was included in cabinet and now
(13:28):
she's gone. So are Carney and Pauliev not listening to
the history? Are they doing the right things?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Well, let's first give a shout out to Doris Kerns Goodwin,
who wrote that book Team of Rivals, probably one of
my favorite historians and a brilliant writer. I think I
think that I would follow her. I mean I would
follow Lincoln's example. I would follow the examples of some
of the great leaders in history, whether it's Laurier or
(13:57):
Louis Saint Laurent or Abraham Lincoln. And we remember Brian
mulrooney brought Joe Clark very close into the cabinet after
that leadership race in nineteen eighty three, so he knew
how to keep some rivals in the cabinet because he
just wanted the best people there with him. Carney, I
haven't There weren't really a lot of rivals in the
(14:17):
poly Ever or Carney situation because they both won their
leaderships by such a dominating factor.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
It's there didn't seem to.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Be a person at the head of a section of
the party that he really needed to reach out to,
So they haven't had quite the same opportunity just yet.
But I think the other point here is bring great
minds into your cabinet, even if you don't agree with
them one percent. Bring the best mind in there and
work it out.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
We're going to take a break for some messages and
come back in just two minutes with our guest who's
written a fascinating book about Prime Minister's J D. M. Stewart.
He's a writer, he's a teacher, he's a historian, and
a book, The Prime Ministers, has been and published this fall,
and he's written a really interesting article about what Mark
Arney could learn if he ever picked up the book
and read it and or gave JDM a call. Stay
(15:08):
with us, everyone, we'll be back in just two minutes.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Stream us live at SAGA nine six am dot CA.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
A welcome back everyone to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour.
I've got with us tonight j D. M. Stewart. JDM
is a writer, he's a teacher, he's a historian, and
he's an author of a book about prime ministers called
(15:40):
The Prime Ministers. And he's written a really interesting article
recently that was called these are the lessons Mark Carney
should learn from Canada's former Prime ministers. And I thought
that the inclusion of the words should is helpful. You
didn't say could or might, You said he should, So
obviously you're of this sense that he really should do
(16:02):
something and learn from these prime ministers. And the first
one that we talked about was pragmatism. The second one
we talked about was teamwork. The third one is courage.
Tell me, sir, why you think he's not courageous. Some
people think it's all but about elbows up, and then
other people have said, well elbows down, what courage does
he need?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Well, I think I'm not saying that he doesn't have
courage or isn't going to have the opportunity to be courageous,
but throughout his time in office, he's going to need
to show courage in order to meet this challenging moment.
There'll be tough decisions that have to be made, and
I think you know, Mark Karney's only been Prime Minister
(16:43):
for about eight months and so there's still a lot
of time ahead of him and tougher decisions to be made.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Some tough decisions.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
I guess you could say we're made in the budget,
but I don't think the budget that was brought out
has necessarily ruffled.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Too many feathers.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
You know that the the disbursement of jobs in the
public service is going to be forty thousand people over
five years. That gives it quite a bit of time.
During the Paul Martin budget that happened a lot quicker.
And so my point here is just to remind the
Prime Minister that courage is a necessity, and that as
(17:20):
the people that I would cite there, whether it's McDonald
and his railway and Brian mulroney with his free traders
tax policy. As you mentioned earlier, Brian, you do have
to make tough decisions. And Maulroney used to say, I've
not been governing for a good headline in ten days.
I govern for good policies for Canada in ten years.
(17:41):
And so Prime Minister Carney would be wise to take
that advice from Brian mulrooney and remind Canadians, as Canadians
of what he's doing. He should try to tell a
story too, the courageous story, and he pokes around the
edges on that, but I think that narrative still has
to be developed about the courageous decisions that are being
made as he tries to prepare Canada for what is really,
(18:05):
as he likes to call it, a hinge moment in history,
which I think it is.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I spoke with Jeff Rubin, a prominent Canadian economist, and
he said that Mark Carney had a once in a career,
lifetime opportunity to do a John A. McDonald national program
and uh and the railway was clearly what what created
Canada and what created John A. McDonald and and knit
(18:30):
you know, BC into a confederation I think and uh,
And it was a huge investment, a huge vision for
what Canada was about. And he said that pipelines could
have and should have been the national program for Mark Carney,
and that he said he squandered that opportunity because this
budget and or right now is the time that he
(18:51):
could have launched that that he talks about us being
an energy super power, but the only energy superpowers in
the world are ones that to exploit their energy by
of a significant investment in infrastructure, and that to diversify
our economy away from the United States, we've got to
get our oil and our national natural gas to tide
water both on the Pacific coast as well as the
(19:14):
Atlantic coast, and you know everything else that he would
have added to that. But he said if he had
announced a national program comparable to the railway, building a
pipeline to the east and West, people would have agreed
with it. They would agreed with the expense, they would
have agreed with the vision, And that he didn't have
the courage that he needed at this time of national emergency.
(19:36):
Given the Trump tariff threats, what do you say to.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
That, Sir, I'm not he may have missed his moment.
I think there's still a window there for him to
be able to come back with something. But the pressures
trying to get something like that lined up is a
lot different than it was during the days of Sir
John and MacDonald. But this is why I think people
are starting to say, well, where are the elbows up.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
And where's this?
Speaker 4 (20:01):
We're going to do things faster than we ever thought
we would before because that sense, there is a bit
of air coming out of that sense that he created
during the election campaign, and so I think Canadians are
still waiting to see that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
So it's possible that he's missed his moments.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
They've been doing a few little things here with the
creation of the Grand Grand Project's location there in Calgary
and so on, but.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
It's not like he can come out.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
You know, with McDonald's national policy, everybody knew it was
railway's immigration and tariffs. Nobody knows exactly what this grand
policy is that the Prime Minister wants to bring out
right now. So I would advise him to get three
big things and just say we're doing a B and
C and start hammering on it because there are a
(20:46):
lot of challenges to try to diversifate diversify trade away.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
From the United States.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
But I don't think he's put a narrative or something
in the window for Canadians to say, ah, that's what
the big project is.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's a little too loosey goosey right now.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Inspiration was your fourth lesson that he could learn no, sorry, apologies,
should learn from your book and from historical Canadian prime ministers.
Tell me about inspiration.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Well, you know, I think one of the roles of
the Prime Minister of Canada is to inspire Canadians.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
And I'll say, you know, Justin Trudeau fumbled the ball
on that one.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
He was apologizing for Canadian history seven eight, nine times
and would always say Canada was great with an asterisk, right,
we're great. But and so I cite the leader, Sir
Wilfrid Laurier, who was one of our great inspirations as
a former prime minister. He's the one who said that
the twentieth century will belong to Canada. He said, Canada
(21:46):
has been the inspiration of my life. He said things
like let your motto be Canada first, Canada last, Canada always,
and so he had a love of country and he
used his words to spread that in inspiration across the country.
And inspiration is important part of being Prime minister. And
(22:06):
you know, Mark Karney and others need to use the
power of speech to inspire and paint a picture of
what they think this country can be and how great
they think it can be, because Canadians want to feel
that from their leaders and they want to be a
part of that. So the Prime Minister needs to show
(22:27):
some inspiration for everybody, and especially coming out of a
period where quite frankly, I don't think the previous Prime
minister did a very good job with that. And so
there's a real opportunity for Mark Karney here.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, he's talked about how you know, the geopolitical situation
has changed, that a relationship with the United States will
be forever changed. So's he's set the tone the opportunity
for that kind of a speech, that kind of a
courageous infrastructure plan. Why don't you think he's grabbed that opportunity.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Well, it could be that he's too busy trying to
get other things in gear and hasn't given much attention
to speech writing and rhetorical flourishes, because remember a prime
minister doesn't usually write his own speeches. He might say,
this is what I want to do, but you have
to have some good speech writers in your office in
order to bring.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
The rhetorical flourishes forward. So you know, he's a banker.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
They didn't exactly make their living inspiring a room full
of people, so it's not necessarily Germane to the Mark
Karney DNA That said, Mark Carney has a pretty good
sense of humor, which I don't know how many people
have picked up on it, but he's a pretty funny guy.
He's amused by the whole thing about being Prime minister,
(23:41):
and I think he can do it. But it's just
a matter of setting priorities. So if he wants to inspire,
he's got to get the right people.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
In front of him.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
For example, that speech that he gave in front of
the young kids two weeks ago, this nationally televised important
budget speech, which turned out to be a bit of
a Dutch If you asked me, it just was like
it was like one of his campaign speeches just changed up.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
For a new audience, and it just it didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
It didn't sing off the page, and not every prime
minister can do it, but it is least it is
at least worth trying to bring some flourish to your
public remarks.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
You quote in your article a Laurier speech to Parliament
when he was arguing in nineteen o three for a
second transcontinental railway. Do you have it or can I
read it?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Yeah? You go ahead and read it.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
This is the one about tomorrow and tomorrow. I think
he's making a Shakespeare illusion here.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
We are just on the fringe of our obligations. If
we want to be true to our destiny, we must
commence here and now, not tomorrow nor the day after tomorrow,
but at this moment, if the Canadian people want to
be true to the destinies of the Canadian nation.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
See it's so great, right, I mean, it's just it
gives you a little bit of a chill to think
of someone putting together some words so eloquently about trying
to grab your destiny. And you know, there's all kinds
of opportunities because the Prime Minister has spoken about this
as a hinge moment, and he can say the Canadians,
you know what kind of a country are we going
(25:15):
to be at this hinge moment? And one of the definitions.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Of a nation and FH.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Underhill, a former UFT history professor, said this is it's
a group of people who have done great things together
in the past and intend to do more great things
together in the future. Well, that's a pretty good definition,
and it's certainly when the Prime Minister could build upon
in one of his speeches, because we have all kinds
of achievements and we just need to be inspired a
(25:44):
bit more about what we can do together. Because a country,
there's a lot to be said for someone who will
put some poetry in front of people. Look what Barack
Obama did in the United States when he ran for
president in two thousand and eight. He got people pull
fired up and uh, now, maybe Mark Carney can't be
(26:05):
Barack Obama. Obama is kind of a singular type of personality,
but you can rise to the occasion and and do
things that inspire.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
What was his line? Fired up?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Was that? Was that Obama's line?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah? He had everyone cheers something after that? What was it?
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yeah, I don't remember, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And and the audacity of hope. Right, But he also
had an incredibly interesting personal story. And and you know
this improbable rise. You know, Mark Carney hasn't been in politics.
He's been, as you said, a banker, and he's been
a banker around the world. It's maybe not as improbable
(26:49):
as a as a gentleman with the middle name Mohammed,
but it is it's still a or hu'saying, it's a.
It's a it's a it's a fascinating rise.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Yeah, I mean, but with uh yeah, I mean the
comparison between the two probably isn't great.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
But it's not as though Mark.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Ready to go, that was it fired.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Up, fired up, ready to go.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
You know, it's it's not like Carney was born with
a silver spoon in his mouth, right. He's born in
the Northwest Territories, grew up at Edmonton and you know,
ended up getting a scholarship to Harvard. So clearly he
was a talent as a young man.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
But he wasn't.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
He wasn't you know, brought up in a in the
in a gilded home or anything like that. But one
one interesting point your your readers or listeners probably don't
know about Mark Carney is that he is the only
Canadian Prime minister to have not had secondary post secondary
education in Canada of those who came, say after the
(27:47):
Second World War, those who had a legitimate chance going
to university here. So, uh, he's the only one no,
no university education in Canada who.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Was always elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Is that good or bad?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
I don't think it is neither good or bad. It's
more of a footnote of trivia.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
I don't think anyone's gonna take away anyone's opportunity if
they happen to get a scholarship to Harvard and then
they're like, oh, you can come to Cambridge University or Oxford.
I think it was Oxford. I don't begrudge him that
at all. So, you know, he lived his life here
and then and then came back to work here for
part of his working life.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
So it's just an interesting footnote.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
So you're four lessons from history that Mark Karney should
learn are pragmatism, teamwork, courage, and inspiration. MM fantastic. We're
going to take a break for some messages and come
back in two minutes with our guest JDM, and we're
going to ask JDM Stewart maybe to read something from
(28:48):
his book for us, so we get a sense of
what the book about the Prime Ministers is all about
and maybe what we can learn if not Mark Karney
is going to from his book and from the lessons
of history from our prime ministers.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Stay with U.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Want back into its.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
No Radio No Problem stream is live on SAGA nine
sixty am dot C A.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Welcome back everyone to the Brian crimeby Radio. I really
enjoying my conversation with J. D. M. Stewart tonight, who's
the author of a book called The Prime Ministers that's
being released this month, but also an author of another
book on prime ministers. He's an author of an article
that I read in the Toronto Starr that was really
interesting about what Mark Karney should learn from our historical
(29:43):
prime ministers. But you've been a teacher most of your life.
I want to ask you about that because it's interesting.
You know, you've got a BA from McGill in history
and a BA in physical education. That's an interesting combination,
and then you went on to quite an interesting career
in teaching. You or a history teacher in Montreal in Westmount,
(30:04):
then in Panama for two years, and then in Toronto
at the Sterling Hall and Bishop Strong School for over
twenty five years combined teaching of history. Tell me what's
it like being a history teacher. How do you motivate
your students to be interested in history? And did they
(30:27):
learn from history? Should they learn from history? If you
had to apply the same concept that you apply to
Mark Karney that he should learn from history? Should all
of us learn from history? Can all of us learn
from history?
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Well, we all can learn from history, for sure.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
And my approach with students was, you know, teaching is
it's a lot of things, but it's part art, it's
part science, and it's very much about human relationships, much
like history is a lot about human relationships. So my
goal was always to try to tell the most interesting
stories to capture students' attention, because you do have to
(31:07):
try to capture their attention. And also, you know, there's
a lot of thinking skills that go into history. But
I think what would happen is, you know, I've got
quite a bit of passion for history, and I've got
passion for Canada. And then students pick up on those
cues that come from a teacher. So if they see
(31:28):
the teacher taking their subjects seriously and seeing where where
it's interesting and getting excited about it.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
It can be kind of contagious.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
And so I used to always ask my students when
they would first come into my history class in grade ten,
and I would get them to be as honest as
possible and say, how many of you really don't like history?
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And a lot of hands would go up.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
I said, Okay, that's no problem. I've got no problem
with this. I said, all I'm going to ask you
to do is keep an open mind. And if there's
a period that comes during this year where you you
think you're moving from the category. If I don't really
like history too, I kind of like history, then.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Just let me know.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
And I could move most of those students, not all
of them, I could move them into the category. Well, ah,
history is actually kind of interesting. The history kind of
sells itself too, Brian. We're talking about in grade ten,
you're teaching the First World War, you're teaching the Second
World War. Students are highly interested in those stories, particularly
as they relate to the soldiers and the experiences that
(32:28):
they faced. Anything that deals with emotional aspects can really
get students hooked.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
And let's face it, there's a very.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Few things more emotional than the experience of soldiers and
people at home during the war. So I think a
lot can be learned from history, and I think what
happened is I would tell students too, that learning history
is an invitation to an adult conversation, because maybe you've
heard about some of these things when you've heard your
(32:58):
parents talking, or you heard about some thing on the news.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
But once you equip yourself with.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
A little bit of cultural capital and historical knowledge, you'll
be able to participate in those conversations too. No, that
doesn't mean that everyone walks out of my door as
a history officionado, but at least my goal was for
them to leave Grade ten Canadian History feeling that a
(33:24):
history is interesting and b I learned something and it
wasn't boring like everybody told it would be. And so
to me, that's a win. And I always enjoyed my
years teaching history because kids actually liked it and it's
such a great subject to deal with.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
You used a term that I've never heard before, JDM.
I've heard of political capital, I've heard of human capital,
I've heard of financial capital, I've heard of of natural
resource capital. I've never heard of cultural capital before. What's
cultural capital?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Is the understanding that you have of the place where
you live. You know, the culture of Canada, the things
that bind us. And in my book, I quote the
Massy Commission, which was a nineteen fifty one report on
Canada's cultural future, because the country was worried about the
(34:24):
encroachment of the United States and what was going to
be of a Canadian culture in nineteen fifty one when
they issued their report, the report said it is desirable
that the Canadian people should know as much as possible
about their country, its history and traditions, and about their
national life and common achievements. I don't think there's been
a better phrase that captures the things that we need
(34:47):
to know about if we're going to be united as Canadians.
And that came from nineteen fifty one and it's as
true today as it was then. And so this is
about developing a common currency so you understand the history
of your country from one side of the country to
the other.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
I chatted with someone who was one of the final
potential contestants in the last Conservative leadership and this individual
said that the biggest problem we had in Canada is
that we didn't have one national culture that we didn't
have a philosophy or an image or a sense of
(35:26):
identity of what it was to be Canadian. What do
you think of that?
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
I think that's imperiled a little bit right now. I
wouldn't say that it's never been. I think we do
have some of the structures in place for those types
of things, but as we've lost you know, we used
to have a lot of national institutions around which we
could develop that common understanding, whether it was you know,
(35:53):
certain sports tournaments, institutions like CBC radio, others, people reading
similar news and getting a sense of a common narrative
that's broken down. Certain leaders have not told the story
of Canada very well. I'd say Justin Trudeau is guilty
of that. But when you have a fragmented social media landscape,
(36:18):
it does make it harder to make a coherent identity travel.
But I wouldn't give up on it because I think
they're still, by and large Canadians feel connected to the country.
We just we need to work on that, and I
think things that the government should do is is make
sure at some point in a student's high school career
(36:38):
or sometime before they turn say age twenty they should
have the opportunity to go and visit another province and
do something meaningful, whether it's a semester at school or
a three week exchange or something, because traveling the country
and seeing other spots is what really helps you develop
an understanding of the country. And if you don't see
other places, then it's pretty hard to have a connection.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
You know, I have to with that. I've been uniquely,
I think almost benefit in my career where I travel
across the country quite a bit, and I travel I've
never actually been to the north, but I've been as
far north as Fort McMurray, which was fascinating to UH
to travel through and see and interview business people and
(37:21):
UH and and people involved in economic development and politics
in in UH in Fort McMurray, I've traveled to every
major city across Canada other than a few in Atlanta,
Canada doing business and UH and while they're you know,
interacting with people from a political standpoint, from an economic standpoint,
from a banking standpoint, et cetera. One of the things
(37:42):
I really want to do is the rail trip across Canada,
and that's one of my bucket list things to do.
How did you get to know Canada.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
Well, I'll tell you one thing I did do that
rail trip In March. I took the train from Toronto
to Vancouver, which was a wonderful experience.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
But one of my.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Most formative experiences as a young person was I participated
in a program called the Forum for Young Canadians and
it still exists. It's run by the Rito Hall Foundation now,
and that brought Canadians from every province and territory to
Ottawa for a week of learning about Canadian government. But
all the learning was really happening when you were talking
(38:22):
to your sixteen year old friends from Princell, Rhode Island,
or you know, someone from Manitoba or British Columbia, whatever
the case may be. I left there and I just
had such a sense of Canada and had made these
friendships from literally across the country, including French speaking Quebecers
that I could practice my French with. And then you know,
(38:42):
I also was fortunate enough to go to university in Montreal,
which also opened up my eyes, and I went there
purposefully for that purpose to try to understand Quebec better.
I spent six weeks living in Jean Quierre, Quebec to
learn French and learned more about Quebec culture. Then I
did the language because my language skills were already pretty good.
(39:04):
But those kinds of experiences where you meet other people
from the country or you go live in another part
of the country, it really helps a person to understand
the country. And I would encourage the government to see
about what programs that either are already existing that they
could improve, or what they might be able to start
(39:26):
up things that could be geared towards young people to
get that kind of understanding about the country.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
And I think when Mackenzie.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
King first traveled in an airplane and he saw the
country from on high, he's like, oh my god, if
only more Canadians could see what I'm seeing right now,
because you really do get an appreciation for this country.
The first time you go west and see the rocky mountains,
You're like, oh my god, and you just feel so
proud of being a part of this great geographical landscape.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Do you have the book handy? Could you read something
from the book? I think it'd be really helpful to
get a sense of your writing and of the stories
and of what your intention is. If you could possibly
read a page from your book.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
Sure, I think what I decided I would read, Brian,
is two short bits from my introduction where I talk
about why I'm writing this book. So this is from
the introduction of the Prime Ministers. A small anecdote illustrates
why Canada needs a new book on the history of
its prime ministers. Two years ago, I spoke to an
(40:31):
assembly of Canadian high school students at a model United
Nations event. On the large screen for my presentation was
a photograph of Lester B. Pearson with his name underneath.
I asked the students who he was.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
No one knew.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
I expressed my surprise to the teacher afterward, and she
told me no one really teaches about prime ministers anymore.
This is only an anecdote, but it speaks volumes about
the teaching of Canadian history in our schools. The topic
of prime ministers should definitely be included in the history curriculum.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Peter C.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
Newman once wrote that every hour a prime minister spends
in that office is an hour in his country's history.
He's not a functionary, but a man chosen by the
people to embody the national direction. If we want to
understand this country, it is imperative that we understand those
who let it.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
So.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Then I move on a little bit later into the introduction,
and I conclude it by saying, this brings me to
some burning questions of our times. How do we reconcile
the past with the present? Must our former prime ministers
have been saints by present day standards? How do we
measure their successes and failures? What lens do we use?
(41:47):
If it is a single lens based exclusively on today's
values and ignoring those of the past, then that is
a mistake. Those who lived several decades or even centuries
ago cannot possibly be expected to have viewed the world
the way we do today, just as those of us
living today should not be held to the standard of
a future world about which we have no familiarity when
(42:09):
a judgment is eventually rendered on our actions. These are
difficult questions, but must be explored as we continue to
tell the stories of the past. Even worse would be
to pay no attention at all. School curricula are changing,
and in many instances the relevance of the past is
being diminished. Now is the time for a fresh perspective
(42:30):
on this critical issue. In their nineteen ninety nine book,
Jack Granitstein and Norm Hillmer wrote, today's scoundrel can be
tomorrow's hero, depending on how events and perceptions alter interpretations.
Whether scoundrel or hero or both, Canada's prime ministers have
altered our history. To know them is to know ourselves.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
So I've heard stories that MacDonald was a drunk and
Mackenzie King participated in sealances. Are those some of the
stories that you've got your book?
Speaker 4 (43:02):
Yep?
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Those they're both in the book, you know.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
And I think it's important to see our leaders not
as single dimensional politicians who just make decisions, but they're
humans too, with interests and motivations. And yeah, McDonald's had
a drinking problem, and I think for too long we've
kind of seen that as the joke on McDonald, But
(43:27):
if you look at the life he had, where he
lost a wife, he lost a child, there might have
been some trauma that the poor man suffered because of
death in his family. And maybe now we're getting a
bit more of a modern understanding of people with alcohol problems.
And you know, McDonald joked about it, I guess, and
(43:47):
we didn't take alcoholism seriously then, but you know, he
had a tragic life and I'm sure he was compensating
for something.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
And as for Mackenzie King, you know.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
Spiritualism, there was a subset of people, particularly in Europe,
who for whom spiritualism was a normal and natural part
of their life. And for King that was the case,
and he kept it very private because we all have
private lives too, so the prime ministers are no different.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
You closed your article with a fascinating quote from Lester B. Pearson.
You actually describe it with a word I don't even know.
I can't even pronounce it, apera crple.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
What is that apocryphal?
Speaker 4 (44:31):
Which means maybe he said it, Maybe people just said
he said it, but we think it comes from him, but.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
It's not one percent verified.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Can I read it?
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Yes? Please do.
Speaker 4 (44:43):
It's a it's a fantastic quotation about being prime minister.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Prime ministers require the hide of a rhinoceros, the morals
of Saint Francis, the patience of job, the wisdom of Solomon,
the strength of Heracles, the the leadership of Napoleon, the
magnetism of a beetle, and the substicularity of Macavelia. What
do you think of that? Tell me what you think
(45:09):
you hear from.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
That, Well, what I hear from that is Pearson saying
it's kind of an impossible job to do, which it
kind of is, and that you know, there's there's you've
got so much coming at you, you know, intrigue, unforeseen problems,
the media gaming for you, and that you really so
(45:31):
you really do need a thick skin, and you need
a lot of patience. You also need I don't know
if Yeah, when he says the strength of hercules, I
think there he's talking about the ability to work hard,
because what a lot of people don't realize about the
job of Prime Minister is that it is an all
consuming job that takes a tremendous amount of time, a
(45:52):
tremendous amount of mental focus, and you know, even the
travel is pretty demanding on the box, as anyone who's
traveled around a lot knows. And I know the Prime
Minister doesn't have to deal with a lot of stuff
when he's traveling in terms of going through customs and
waiting in airports and things like that, but nonetheless, the
time change and travel it's never easy on the body.
(46:14):
So Pearson just saying here that this is a really
hard job and just be prepared for just about anything.
And I think all prime ministers would agree with that. Now,
despite all that, you know, I think it was Pierre
Trudeau who said something like it's better than working at
(46:35):
another job, Like the job is really hard, but it's
better than any other job. So I think I'll be
quite happy to continue to be prime minister.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
So if Mark Carney called you up and asked you
for a coffee or a meeting and said, look, I
hear all of what you got to say. I've read
your book, I've listened to the interview you've done, etc.
But what are the three things that you think I
should do to be courageous to to show inspiration. What
are those three things that I should announce in the
(47:04):
next week.
Speaker 4 (47:05):
What would you tell them, Well, i'd need a little
bit more insight intel from his government about what he's
thinking of doing. But I might say, well, you know,
Prime Minister, I'm going to be in Ottawa next week,
so if you want to have a sit down, let's
do it. I think I would say, decide what the
story's going to be, what's the vision here, hang some
projects on that, be upfront about what we're going to do.
(47:31):
Because I think people are waiting for They don't want
to drip, drab and go.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Yeah, there might be a port, there might not be
a port.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
We're hoping for a pipeline, but we got to see.
I think we need to be a bit more definitive
about some of these things, because some of them are
really hard to do because of the way the country's
put together now in terms of environmental assessments, indigenous people's approvals.
But I would say be a bit more concrete and
firm about what it is you're trying to do, because
(47:59):
it just seems like there's a lot of a lot
of irons in the fire right now, and we don't
really know which ones are going to catch, and so
I would say to be a bit bolder on what
that is and keep repeating it, and do so with
flourish like you mean it.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
JDM Stewart, thanks so much for joining us. I really
appreciate it. Remind us all the title of your book, please.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
It is the Prime Minister's Canada's Leaders and the Nation
they shaped. It's available online at at your favorite bookstore,
in person, wherever you buy your books.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I think Mark Kearney should give you a call and
hear what you got to say. I agree with you.
I think that being bold is the right strategy. And
I think that we have talked about a lot of
different things. I think he's got to be definitive and
state these are the things that we must do to
create the Canada that we all dream of and that
we've dreamed of for you know, one hundred and plus years.
(48:55):
And I think that if he did that, and if
he said that, I think the kind of who would
be behind him right now. And he's got a almost
a once in a lifetime, once in a country lifetime
kind of opportunity, probably never repeated since maybe Trudeau with
the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or mulroney with free trade,
(49:16):
or Cretche and Martin with you know, changing our financial situation.
And that's equal to those opportunities to recreate what Canada
is and should be. And I do think that a
national program like a pipeline from east to west, like
(49:36):
the railway that McDonald supported that brought our country together
initially back in eighteen sixty seven, would be the kind
of project that could bring us all together. JDM, thanks
so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Thank you Brian, great conversation.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
That's our show for tonight, everybody, Thank you for joining.
I remind you I'm on every night at six o'clock
on nine to sixty am in Toronto, but you can
get me from across Canada at TRIPLEWSAGA nine sixty am
dot ca. A. My podcast and videos go up on
my website Briancromby dot com, on social media, my YouTube channel,
on podcast servers as soon as the radio show gets
broadcast to air. Thanks for joining us, everybody. This has
(50:14):
been wonderful. JDM. Invite me to your book launch please.
I want to be there and I can congratulate, you
can edit.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
Yeah, we'll do
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Stream us live at SAGA nine six am dot CA
The views expressed in the following program are those of
the participants and do not necessarily reflect the views of
SAGA nine sixty am or its management.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour.
I've got a really interesting guest for us tonight. Who's
a writer. His he's historian, he's a teacher, he's a
public speaker, and he's an author of a book called
The Prime Ministers, Canada's Leaders and the Nation They Shaped.
I became aware of him when he wrote an interesting
article recently in The Toronto Star about what Mark Karney
(00:40):
could learn from the Prime Ministers. JD. M. Stewart is
our guest today. He's a writer and historian, as I mentioned,
and he's one of Canada's foremost experts on Canadian prime ministers.
His commentaries regularly appear in The Globemail, The Hub, the
Literary Review of Canada. As I mentioned the Toronto Star.
He often appears on television and radio programs where he
(01:00):
can give us a historical perspective on the issues of
the day, connecting them to his knowledge of prime ministers.
James previous book, Being Prime Minister, was on The Hill
Times Top one hundred pick. He's inspired also a generation
of students during his thirty year career teaching history to
high school students. In twenty and twenty twelve, he was
awarded a Queen Elizabeth to Diamond Jubilee Medal for his
(01:23):
contribution to history education in Canada. JDM, Welcome to.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
The show, Brian, Thanks for having me on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
My pleasure. So I read this article that I found
really interesting that Mark Kearney could actually learn something from
his predecessors. Do you think he learns it? Did he
listen to you? I don't know, me a call and
say tell me what I should learn.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
He probably should give me a call.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
I'd love to have a meeting with the Prime Minister
and talk about what he could learn from his predecessors.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
And of course there's.
Speaker 4 (01:53):
A lot that can be learned from previous Prime ministers,
just as in anyone's job, you could learn by the
people who came before you. And I just pointed out
a few different areas where he could learn from others.
And I don't know how many examples you want to
get into, but you know, one of them I talked
about was pragmatism and being a pragmatic leader is pretty
(02:15):
essential in a country like Canada because of the diverse
elements of the country from east to west, and you know,
we have a French speaking population, we have many immigrants
from around the world and different regions with different interests,
so pragmatism is a very important attribute to have in
(02:35):
Mackenzie King is the Prime minister that I cited in
my article as an exemplar for him to follow in
terms of being pragmatic.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
You know, I found that interesting because I understand that,
you know, the Liberal Party in Ontario fragmented over this
issue of conscription and there was, you know, big debates
back and forth, and you in the article quote King
is saying not necessarcessarily conscription, but conscription if necessary. And
then you talk about him having and I didn't know this,
(03:05):
he actually had a referendum. Is that what happened?
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Well, he had a plebiscite.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
So a plebiscite means that the government isn't bound by
the results, whereas a referendum is a binding result. But
this was one of the ways that Mackenzie King was
a bit wily in his ways because he had made
a promise to Canadians that he would not invoke conscription,
and the reason for that was of the divisions that
(03:32):
it caused.
Speaker 3 (03:33):
During the First World War.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
So he made that promise, but then it became apparent
that conscription may well be necessary, and so his way
out of it was to hold a plebiscite, not asking
whether Canadians agreed with conscription or not, but whether they
would agree to release the government from their promise not
to bring in conscription. So it was a little bit
of an incremental way of trying to get out of
(03:55):
the predicament he had got himself in. Interestingly, the the
plebiscite did return strong numbers in favor of releasing the
government from the promise, but it also returned strong numbers
from Quebec not wanting the government to be released from
the province. But at least it brought the issue forward
and gave King somewhat of a mandate to bring in
(04:17):
conscription later. But also he knew he would have to
mollify Quebec in some fashion, and I think he lost
a couple of Quebec cabinet ministers over the issue. But
it's another example of using a little bit of pulling
the levers of government in order to sometimes buy time,
kick something down the road, give a little bit of
(04:38):
time for the air to come out of the issue.
These are some strategies that Mackenzie King was very good
at using.
Speaker 2 (04:44):
Well, I've got a personal connection with the whole issue.
My great uncle was Premier of Ontario at the time
and lost because of the issue on conscription, and he
wanted to stay. He wanted to support Mackenzie King, Harry
Nixon was his name, and ended up losing because of
a fracture and his party where his party wasn't a
(05:07):
supportive necessarily of Mackenzie King's PLUBISA four in support for conscription,
which is kind of an interesting connection. You then quote
a poem. Yes, and I thought this poem was wonderful.
Do you have it handy? Could you read it?
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Or you know, I've just included a stanza. This is
the F. R. Scott poem called w l MK.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
But if you want to read the standsa that you
have there, then let's hear it.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
He skillfully avoided what was wrong without saying what was right,
and never let his on the one hand know what
his on the other hand was doing.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Right.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
And it goes on also to say never do by halves,
which can be done by quarters.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
So this poem come out in nineteen fifty seven.
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Fr Scott was a famous constitutional lawyer out of McGill
constitutional scholar and he, you know, the poem is a
bit of a send up of Mackenzie King. But I
first came across that poem when I was taking my
intro to Canadian literature class at McGill University and this
(06:17):
poem was in the anthology. It's in a lot of
anthologies for Canadian poetry, and it's a wonderful critique of
Mackenzie King and speaks to this way of governing that
he you know, it wasn't the most exciting thing.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
I think.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
There's another line in there that the height of his
ambition was to pile a royal commission on top of
a parliamentary investigation or something.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Like this, and it just got it that King's ability
to obfuscate a little bit.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
There's another line in the poem about postpone postponed delay
and these are the things that King did in order
to you know, he would say, sometimes being a successful
prime minister's not the things that you do, it's the
things that you don't do. So he was very calculating
and strategic in the way that he ran the country.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
Well, I'll give you only my interesting antidote that might
antidote that might be helpful. I met with a former
prime minister, Brammlroney at one point in time, and he
said that the benefit of his implementation of the free
trade Agreement was that Number one, it was commissioned by
Pierre Trudeau Trudeau senior. That it was led by Ronald MacDonald,
(07:30):
a former Liberal finance minister. It was twenty six volumes
of study. They traveled across the country with a royal commission,
and then he had a election debate and an election.
There was really a referendum on free trade, so he said,
even though the country was split and there were real
issues on both sides, when I won that election, after
(07:51):
that process, led by a liberal prime minister, a Liberal
finance minister, twenty six volumes, et cetera, et cetera, it
was a slam dunk. I could implement it because anyone
felt it. He said. I did the opposite thing on
the GST, which I'll live to regret, because smart people
came up with the GST and implemented it right away
and I went down to the most substantial defeat in
electoral politics.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
Yeah, it's sometimes timing and methods are everything.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
But the McDonald Commission gave Maulroney a lot of cover
on free trade.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
But you know, Mulrooney's been vindicated on the GST by
economists and you know, anyone who knows anything about taxation.
When you take a tax that's hidden and inhibits manufacturing
and then you put it as a sales tax that
everybody can see, maybe people don't like it, but it
actually turned out to be very good for the Canadian
economy and good for good tax policy.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Then he said, and this was after he was no
longer elected. I met him at a wedding and I
had a nice little chat with him off to the
side of a wedding, and he said, the smartest economic
thing and the stupidest political thing I did was the GST.
The smartest political thing and the stupidest econom thing that
Stephen Harper did was take two points off of the GST.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
Right.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
You know, that's a good one because whenever people think
about the holes in the fiscal capacity of the federal government,
everybody wishes that those two points were back there. That
Stephen Harper took off, and I wonder if they'll ever
be a prime.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Minister with the courage to say we need to add.
Speaker 4 (09:22):
One back, or we need to add two back, because
that revenue has been essential to a lot of the
things that the Canadian government does, and Harper did something
that was so easy, and it'll take a lot of
courage if anyone ever tries to bring back the two
points that he took off.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
Your second point was teamwork. And you know, it's interesting
because I think a lot of people remember Jean Coutcher
and Paul Martin working well together. You know, some people
think that Trudeau and Turner worked well together. I'm not
sure whether that's the case or not. But we did
have in the Trudeau era a lot of cabinet ministers
that I think we can remember, and during the Morony era,
(10:01):
you know Flaherty and other people Wilson that we can remember. Lately,
we've seemed to have had pmos, prime ministers and even leaders,
you know, Pierre Pouliev I don't know how many people
could quote some of the other members of the front
bench of the Conservative Party. So teamwork is that something
from a Bygun era or is that something that is
(10:23):
still you know, important today when when you know Justin
Trudeau seemed to have been a man unto himself, Harper
seemed to be a man to himself. You know, Carnie
seems to, as you've quote in your article, seems to
not have learned the lesson of teamwork, and certainly Pierre
Pouliev seems to be a man of himself.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yeah, I think I don't know if I will throw
it into the dustbin of history just yet, because I
think a lot of prime ministers have proven to be
very successful by running a team.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
And let's face it, politics is.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Is teamwork, and you're only going to be as strong
as as your team is, but you do have to
give them some power.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
And you know, Jean Kretschaan.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
Was my singular one of my examples there because he
was really, if we're going to call it old school principles,
you know, he learned government by being in the cabinets
of Lester B.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Pearson.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
So he saw the importance of the civil service, the
importance of a cabinet that's allowed to do its power,
and his cabinet really adored him. His caucus adored him.
Teamwork is also about caucus, and I didn't get deep
into caucus on that section, but prime ministers who look
after their caucus pay attention to them, they benefit from
that and they recruit loyal soldiers from that. And Kretschian
(11:45):
was excellent, excellent at that. Brian mulrooney is probably the
sinquann of caucus managers. And you know, phoning people when
the head a caucus member who had a wife maybe
that was in the hospital, and Mulrooney's on the phone saying,
I hope everything's okay. You know, he did those kinds
of things all over the place. And now we know
that Justin Trudeau. A lot of things are coming out
(12:06):
about Justin Trudeau that cabinet ministers had trouble just getting
meetings with him. That should never happen in cabinet government.
And then so you can imagine what caucus members may
have felt like who could barely get time with the
prime minister. So I think it's pretty clear that the
most successful prime ministers will treat their teams as important
parts of the success of the government, and those who
(12:30):
ignore that, well, you know, I guess some will have
some success. But you know, if you look at the
Justin Trudeau and Stephen Harper examples. I don't know that
there's people running out saying how great they were as
team leaders.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
So, you know, one of my favorite books and concept
is Team of Rivals that talked about Lincoln and how
he invited in the people that were against them. And
you know, many people say that one of Obama's most
brilliant decisions was inviting Hillary Clinton and to be SEC
criteria state. We don't have a lot of examples of
that in Canada of late. You know, lots of people
(13:05):
have suggested that Pierre Pouliev was brilliant in in really
creating a party that was his but excluded Jean Chardt
and some of the other people that you know, were
of the Red Tory ilk. You know, Christian Friedland was
the only rival that was included in cabinet and now
(13:28):
she's gone. So are Carney and Pauliev not listening to
the history? Are they doing the right things?
Speaker 4 (13:34):
Well, let's first give a shout out to Doris Kerns Goodwin,
who wrote that book Team of Rivals, probably one of
my favorite historians and a brilliant writer. I think I
think that I would follow her. I mean I would
follow Lincoln's example. I would follow the examples of some
of the great leaders in history, whether it's Laurier or
(13:57):
Louis Saint Laurent or Abraham Lincoln. And we remember Brian
mulrooney brought Joe Clark very close into the cabinet after
that leadership race in nineteen eighty three, so he knew
how to keep some rivals in the cabinet because he
just wanted the best people there with him. Carney, I
haven't There weren't really a lot of rivals in the
(14:17):
poly Ever or Carney situation because they both won their
leaderships by such a dominating factor.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
It's there didn't seem to.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
Be a person at the head of a section of
the party that he really needed to reach out to,
So they haven't had quite the same opportunity just yet.
But I think the other point here is bring great
minds into your cabinet, even if you don't agree with
them one percent. Bring the best mind in there and
work it out.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
We're going to take a break for some messages and
come back in just two minutes with our guest who's
written a fascinating book about Prime Minister's J D. M. Stewart.
He's a writer, he's a teacher, he's a historian, and
a book, The Prime Ministers, has been and published this fall,
and he's written a really interesting article about what Mark
Arney could learn if he ever picked up the book
and read it and or gave JDM a call. Stay
(15:08):
with us, everyone, we'll be back in just two minutes.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
Stream us live at SAGA nine six am dot CA.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
A welcome back everyone to the Brian Crombie Radio Hour.
I've got with us tonight j D. M. Stewart. JDM
is a writer, he's a teacher, he's a historian, and
he's an author of a book about prime ministers called
(15:40):
The Prime Ministers. And he's written a really interesting article
recently that was called these are the lessons Mark Carney
should learn from Canada's former Prime ministers. And I thought
that the inclusion of the words should is helpful. You
didn't say could or might, You said he should, So
obviously you're of this sense that he really should do
(16:02):
something and learn from these prime ministers. And the first
one that we talked about was pragmatism. The second one
we talked about was teamwork. The third one is courage.
Tell me, sir, why you think he's not courageous. Some
people think it's all but about elbows up, and then
other people have said, well elbows down, what courage does
he need?
Speaker 4 (16:23):
Well, I think I'm not saying that he doesn't have
courage or isn't going to have the opportunity to be courageous,
but throughout his time in office, he's going to need
to show courage in order to meet this challenging moment.
There'll be tough decisions that have to be made, and
I think you know, Mark Karney's only been Prime Minister
(16:43):
for about eight months and so there's still a lot
of time ahead of him and tougher decisions to be made.
Speaker 3 (16:50):
Some tough decisions.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
I guess you could say we're made in the budget,
but I don't think the budget that was brought out
has necessarily ruffled.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Too many feathers.
Speaker 4 (16:59):
You know that the the disbursement of jobs in the
public service is going to be forty thousand people over
five years. That gives it quite a bit of time.
During the Paul Martin budget that happened a lot quicker.
And so my point here is just to remind the
Prime Minister that courage is a necessity, and that as
(17:20):
the people that I would cite there, whether it's McDonald
and his railway and Brian mulroney with his free traders
tax policy. As you mentioned earlier, Brian, you do have
to make tough decisions. And Maulroney used to say, I've
not been governing for a good headline in ten days.
I govern for good policies for Canada in ten years.
(17:41):
And so Prime Minister Carney would be wise to take
that advice from Brian mulrooney and remind Canadians, as Canadians
of what he's doing. He should try to tell a
story too, the courageous story, and he pokes around the
edges on that, but I think that narrative still has
to be developed about the courageous decisions that are being
made as he tries to prepare Canada for what is really,
(18:05):
as he likes to call it, a hinge moment in history,
which I think it is.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
I spoke with Jeff Rubin, a prominent Canadian economist, and
he said that Mark Carney had a once in a career,
lifetime opportunity to do a John A. McDonald national program
and uh and the railway was clearly what what created
Canada and what created John A. McDonald and and knit
(18:30):
you know, BC into a confederation I think and uh,
And it was a huge investment, a huge vision for
what Canada was about. And he said that pipelines could
have and should have been the national program for Mark Carney,
and that he said he squandered that opportunity because this
budget and or right now is the time that he
(18:51):
could have launched that that he talks about us being
an energy super power, but the only energy superpowers in
the world are ones that to exploit their energy by
of a significant investment in infrastructure, and that to diversify
our economy away from the United States, we've got to
get our oil and our national natural gas to tide
water both on the Pacific coast as well as the
(19:14):
Atlantic coast, and you know everything else that he would
have added to that. But he said if he had
announced a national program comparable to the railway, building a
pipeline to the east and West, people would have agreed
with it. They would agreed with the expense, they would
have agreed with the vision, And that he didn't have
the courage that he needed at this time of national emergency.
(19:36):
Given the Trump tariff threats, what do you say to.
Speaker 4 (19:38):
That, Sir, I'm not he may have missed his moment.
I think there's still a window there for him to
be able to come back with something. But the pressures
trying to get something like that lined up is a
lot different than it was during the days of Sir
John and MacDonald. But this is why I think people
are starting to say, well, where are the elbows up.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
And where's this?
Speaker 4 (20:01):
We're going to do things faster than we ever thought
we would before because that sense, there is a bit
of air coming out of that sense that he created
during the election campaign, and so I think Canadians are
still waiting to see that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
So it's possible that he's missed his moments.
Speaker 4 (20:15):
They've been doing a few little things here with the
creation of the Grand Grand Project's location there in Calgary
and so on, but.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
It's not like he can come out.
Speaker 4 (20:25):
You know, with McDonald's national policy, everybody knew it was
railway's immigration and tariffs. Nobody knows exactly what this grand
policy is that the Prime Minister wants to bring out
right now. So I would advise him to get three
big things and just say we're doing a B and
C and start hammering on it because there are a
(20:46):
lot of challenges to try to diversifate diversify trade away.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
From the United States.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
But I don't think he's put a narrative or something
in the window for Canadians to say, ah, that's what
the big project is.
Speaker 3 (20:57):
It's a little too loosey goosey right now.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Inspiration was your fourth lesson that he could learn no, sorry, apologies,
should learn from your book and from historical Canadian prime ministers.
Tell me about inspiration.
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Well, you know, I think one of the roles of
the Prime Minister of Canada is to inspire Canadians.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
And I'll say, you know, Justin Trudeau fumbled the ball
on that one.
Speaker 4 (21:23):
He was apologizing for Canadian history seven eight, nine times
and would always say Canada was great with an asterisk, right,
we're great. But and so I cite the leader, Sir
Wilfrid Laurier, who was one of our great inspirations as
a former prime minister. He's the one who said that
the twentieth century will belong to Canada. He said, Canada
(21:46):
has been the inspiration of my life. He said things
like let your motto be Canada first, Canada last, Canada always,
and so he had a love of country and he
used his words to spread that in inspiration across the country.
And inspiration is important part of being Prime minister. And
(22:06):
you know, Mark Karney and others need to use the
power of speech to inspire and paint a picture of
what they think this country can be and how great
they think it can be, because Canadians want to feel
that from their leaders and they want to be a
part of that. So the Prime Minister needs to show
(22:27):
some inspiration for everybody, and especially coming out of a
period where quite frankly, I don't think the previous Prime
minister did a very good job with that. And so
there's a real opportunity for Mark Karney here.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well, he's talked about how you know, the geopolitical situation
has changed, that a relationship with the United States will
be forever changed. So's he's set the tone the opportunity
for that kind of a speech, that kind of a
courageous infrastructure plan. Why don't you think he's grabbed that opportunity.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Well, it could be that he's too busy trying to
get other things in gear and hasn't given much attention
to speech writing and rhetorical flourishes, because remember a prime
minister doesn't usually write his own speeches. He might say,
this is what I want to do, but you have
to have some good speech writers in your office in
order to bring.
Speaker 3 (23:16):
The rhetorical flourishes forward. So you know, he's a banker.
Speaker 4 (23:21):
They didn't exactly make their living inspiring a room full
of people, so it's not necessarily Germane to the Mark
Karney DNA That said, Mark Carney has a pretty good
sense of humor, which I don't know how many people
have picked up on it, but he's a pretty funny guy.
He's amused by the whole thing about being Prime minister,
(23:41):
and I think he can do it. But it's just
a matter of setting priorities. So if he wants to inspire,
he's got to get the right people.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
In front of him.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
For example, that speech that he gave in front of
the young kids two weeks ago, this nationally televised important
budget speech, which turned out to be a bit of
a Dutch If you asked me, it just was like
it was like one of his campaign speeches just changed up.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
For a new audience, and it just it didn't.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
It didn't sing off the page, and not every prime
minister can do it, but it is least it is
at least worth trying to bring some flourish to your
public remarks.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
You quote in your article a Laurier speech to Parliament
when he was arguing in nineteen o three for a
second transcontinental railway. Do you have it or can I
read it?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Yeah? You go ahead and read it.
Speaker 4 (24:34):
This is the one about tomorrow and tomorrow. I think
he's making a Shakespeare illusion here.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
We are just on the fringe of our obligations. If
we want to be true to our destiny, we must
commence here and now, not tomorrow nor the day after tomorrow,
but at this moment, if the Canadian people want to
be true to the destinies of the Canadian nation.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
See it's so great, right, I mean, it's just it
gives you a little bit of a chill to think
of someone putting together some words so eloquently about trying
to grab your destiny. And you know, there's all kinds
of opportunities because the Prime Minister has spoken about this
as a hinge moment, and he can say the Canadians,
you know what kind of a country are we going
(25:15):
to be at this hinge moment? And one of the definitions.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Of a nation and FH.
Speaker 4 (25:21):
Underhill, a former UFT history professor, said this is it's
a group of people who have done great things together
in the past and intend to do more great things
together in the future. Well, that's a pretty good definition,
and it's certainly when the Prime Minister could build upon
in one of his speeches, because we have all kinds
of achievements and we just need to be inspired a
(25:44):
bit more about what we can do together. Because a country,
there's a lot to be said for someone who will
put some poetry in front of people. Look what Barack
Obama did in the United States when he ran for
president in two thousand and eight. He got people pull
fired up and uh, now, maybe Mark Carney can't be
(26:05):
Barack Obama. Obama is kind of a singular type of personality,
but you can rise to the occasion and and do
things that inspire.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
What was his line? Fired up?
Speaker 3 (26:19):
Was that? Was that Obama's line?
Speaker 2 (26:20):
Yeah? He had everyone cheers something after that? What was it?
Speaker 3 (26:24):
Yeah, I don't remember, I don't remember.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
And and the audacity of hope. Right, But he also
had an incredibly interesting personal story. And and you know
this improbable rise. You know, Mark Carney hasn't been in politics.
He's been, as you said, a banker, and he's been
a banker around the world. It's maybe not as improbable
(26:49):
as a as a gentleman with the middle name Mohammed,
but it is it's still a or hu'saying, it's a.
It's a it's a it's a fascinating rise.
Speaker 4 (27:00):
Yeah, I mean, but with uh yeah, I mean the
comparison between the two probably isn't great.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
But it's not as though Mark.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Ready to go, that was it fired.
Speaker 3 (27:08):
Up, fired up, ready to go.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
You know, it's it's not like Carney was born with
a silver spoon in his mouth, right. He's born in
the Northwest Territories, grew up at Edmonton and you know,
ended up getting a scholarship to Harvard. So clearly he
was a talent as a young man.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
But he wasn't.
Speaker 4 (27:25):
He wasn't you know, brought up in a in the
in a gilded home or anything like that. But one
one interesting point your your readers or listeners probably don't
know about Mark Carney is that he is the only
Canadian Prime minister to have not had secondary post secondary
education in Canada of those who came, say after the
(27:47):
Second World War, those who had a legitimate chance going
to university here. So, uh, he's the only one no,
no university education in Canada who.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
Was always elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Is that good or bad?
Speaker 4 (27:59):
I don't think it is neither good or bad. It's
more of a footnote of trivia.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
You know.
Speaker 4 (28:04):
I don't think anyone's gonna take away anyone's opportunity if
they happen to get a scholarship to Harvard and then
they're like, oh, you can come to Cambridge University or Oxford.
I think it was Oxford. I don't begrudge him that
at all. So, you know, he lived his life here
and then and then came back to work here for
part of his working life.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
So it's just an interesting footnote.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
So you're four lessons from history that Mark Karney should
learn are pragmatism, teamwork, courage, and inspiration. MM fantastic. We're
going to take a break for some messages and come
back in two minutes with our guest JDM, and we're
going to ask JDM Stewart maybe to read something from
(28:48):
his book for us, so we get a sense of
what the book about the Prime Ministers is all about
and maybe what we can learn if not Mark Karney
is going to from his book and from the lessons
of history from our prime ministers.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Stay with U.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Want back into its.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
No Radio No Problem stream is live on SAGA nine
sixty am dot C A.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
Welcome back everyone to the Brian crimeby Radio. I really
enjoying my conversation with J. D. M. Stewart tonight, who's
the author of a book called The Prime Ministers that's
being released this month, but also an author of another
book on prime ministers. He's an author of an article
that I read in the Toronto Starr that was really
interesting about what Mark Karney should learn from our historical
(29:43):
prime ministers. But you've been a teacher most of your life.
I want to ask you about that because it's interesting.
You know, you've got a BA from McGill in history
and a BA in physical education. That's an interesting combination,
and then you went on to quite an interesting career
in teaching. You or a history teacher in Montreal in Westmount,
(30:04):
then in Panama for two years, and then in Toronto
at the Sterling Hall and Bishop Strong School for over
twenty five years combined teaching of history. Tell me what's
it like being a history teacher. How do you motivate
your students to be interested in history? And did they
(30:27):
learn from history? Should they learn from history? If you
had to apply the same concept that you apply to
Mark Karney that he should learn from history? Should all
of us learn from history? Can all of us learn
from history?
Speaker 3 (30:41):
Well, we all can learn from history, for sure.
Speaker 4 (30:44):
And my approach with students was, you know, teaching is
it's a lot of things, but it's part art, it's
part science, and it's very much about human relationships, much
like history is a lot about human relationships. So my
goal was always to try to tell the most interesting
stories to capture students' attention, because you do have to
(31:07):
try to capture their attention. And also, you know, there's
a lot of thinking skills that go into history. But
I think what would happen is, you know, I've got
quite a bit of passion for history, and I've got
passion for Canada. And then students pick up on those
cues that come from a teacher. So if they see
(31:28):
the teacher taking their subjects seriously and seeing where where
it's interesting and getting excited about it.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
It can be kind of contagious.
Speaker 4 (31:37):
And so I used to always ask my students when
they would first come into my history class in grade ten,
and I would get them to be as honest as
possible and say, how many of you really don't like history?
Speaker 3 (31:48):
And a lot of hands would go up.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
I said, Okay, that's no problem. I've got no problem
with this. I said, all I'm going to ask you
to do is keep an open mind. And if there's
a period that comes during this year where you you
think you're moving from the category. If I don't really
like history too, I kind of like history, then.
Speaker 3 (32:04):
Just let me know.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
And I could move most of those students, not all
of them, I could move them into the category. Well, ah,
history is actually kind of interesting. The history kind of
sells itself too, Brian. We're talking about in grade ten,
you're teaching the First World War, you're teaching the Second
World War. Students are highly interested in those stories, particularly
as they relate to the soldiers and the experiences that
(32:28):
they faced. Anything that deals with emotional aspects can really
get students hooked.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
And let's face it, there's a very.
Speaker 4 (32:36):
Few things more emotional than the experience of soldiers and
people at home during the war. So I think a
lot can be learned from history, and I think what
happened is I would tell students too, that learning history
is an invitation to an adult conversation, because maybe you've
heard about some of these things when you've heard your
(32:58):
parents talking, or you heard about some thing on the news.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
But once you equip yourself with.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
A little bit of cultural capital and historical knowledge, you'll
be able to participate in those conversations too. No, that
doesn't mean that everyone walks out of my door as
a history officionado, but at least my goal was for
them to leave Grade ten Canadian History feeling that a
(33:24):
history is interesting and b I learned something and it
wasn't boring like everybody told it would be. And so
to me, that's a win. And I always enjoyed my
years teaching history because kids actually liked it and it's
such a great subject to deal with.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
You used a term that I've never heard before, JDM.
I've heard of political capital, I've heard of human capital,
I've heard of financial capital, I've heard of of natural
resource capital. I've never heard of cultural capital before. What's
cultural capital?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Is the understanding that you have of the place where
you live. You know, the culture of Canada, the things
that bind us. And in my book, I quote the
Massy Commission, which was a nineteen fifty one report on
Canada's cultural future, because the country was worried about the
(34:24):
encroachment of the United States and what was going to
be of a Canadian culture in nineteen fifty one when
they issued their report, the report said it is desirable
that the Canadian people should know as much as possible
about their country, its history and traditions, and about their
national life and common achievements. I don't think there's been
a better phrase that captures the things that we need
(34:47):
to know about if we're going to be united as Canadians.
And that came from nineteen fifty one and it's as
true today as it was then. And so this is
about developing a common currency so you understand the history
of your country from one side of the country to
the other.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
I chatted with someone who was one of the final
potential contestants in the last Conservative leadership and this individual
said that the biggest problem we had in Canada is
that we didn't have one national culture that we didn't
have a philosophy or an image or a sense of
(35:26):
identity of what it was to be Canadian. What do
you think of that?
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Yeah, I don't.
Speaker 4 (35:31):
I think that's imperiled a little bit right now. I
wouldn't say that it's never been. I think we do
have some of the structures in place for those types
of things, but as we've lost you know, we used
to have a lot of national institutions around which we
could develop that common understanding, whether it was you know,
(35:53):
certain sports tournaments, institutions like CBC radio, others, people reading
similar news and getting a sense of a common narrative
that's broken down. Certain leaders have not told the story
of Canada very well. I'd say Justin Trudeau is guilty
of that. But when you have a fragmented social media landscape,
(36:18):
it does make it harder to make a coherent identity travel.
But I wouldn't give up on it because I think
they're still, by and large Canadians feel connected to the country.
We just we need to work on that, and I
think things that the government should do is is make
sure at some point in a student's high school career
(36:38):
or sometime before they turn say age twenty they should
have the opportunity to go and visit another province and
do something meaningful, whether it's a semester at school or
a three week exchange or something, because traveling the country
and seeing other spots is what really helps you develop
an understanding of the country. And if you don't see
other places, then it's pretty hard to have a connection.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
You know, I have to with that. I've been uniquely,
I think almost benefit in my career where I travel
across the country quite a bit, and I travel I've
never actually been to the north, but I've been as
far north as Fort McMurray, which was fascinating to UH
to travel through and see and interview business people and
(37:21):
UH and and people involved in economic development and politics
in in UH in Fort McMurray, I've traveled to every
major city across Canada other than a few in Atlanta,
Canada doing business and UH and while they're you know,
interacting with people from a political standpoint, from an economic standpoint,
from a banking standpoint, et cetera. One of the things
(37:42):
I really want to do is the rail trip across Canada,
and that's one of my bucket list things to do.
How did you get to know Canada.
Speaker 4 (37:50):
Well, I'll tell you one thing I did do that
rail trip In March. I took the train from Toronto
to Vancouver, which was a wonderful experience.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
But one of my.
Speaker 4 (38:00):
Most formative experiences as a young person was I participated
in a program called the Forum for Young Canadians and
it still exists. It's run by the Rito Hall Foundation now,
and that brought Canadians from every province and territory to
Ottawa for a week of learning about Canadian government. But
all the learning was really happening when you were talking
(38:22):
to your sixteen year old friends from Princell, Rhode Island,
or you know, someone from Manitoba or British Columbia, whatever
the case may be. I left there and I just
had such a sense of Canada and had made these
friendships from literally across the country, including French speaking Quebecers
that I could practice my French with. And then you know,
(38:42):
I also was fortunate enough to go to university in Montreal,
which also opened up my eyes, and I went there
purposefully for that purpose to try to understand Quebec better.
I spent six weeks living in Jean Quierre, Quebec to
learn French and learned more about Quebec culture. Then I
did the language because my language skills were already pretty good.
(39:04):
But those kinds of experiences where you meet other people
from the country or you go live in another part
of the country, it really helps a person to understand
the country. And I would encourage the government to see
about what programs that either are already existing that they
could improve, or what they might be able to start
(39:26):
up things that could be geared towards young people to
get that kind of understanding about the country.
Speaker 3 (39:33):
And I think when Mackenzie.
Speaker 4 (39:35):
King first traveled in an airplane and he saw the
country from on high, he's like, oh my god, if
only more Canadians could see what I'm seeing right now,
because you really do get an appreciation for this country.
The first time you go west and see the rocky mountains,
You're like, oh my god, and you just feel so
proud of being a part of this great geographical landscape.
Speaker 2 (39:56):
Do you have the book handy? Could you read something
from the book? I think it'd be really helpful to
get a sense of your writing and of the stories
and of what your intention is. If you could possibly
read a page from your book.
Speaker 4 (40:08):
Sure, I think what I decided I would read, Brian,
is two short bits from my introduction where I talk
about why I'm writing this book. So this is from
the introduction of the Prime Ministers. A small anecdote illustrates
why Canada needs a new book on the history of
its prime ministers. Two years ago, I spoke to an
(40:31):
assembly of Canadian high school students at a model United
Nations event. On the large screen for my presentation was
a photograph of Lester B. Pearson with his name underneath.
I asked the students who he was.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
No one knew.
Speaker 4 (40:48):
I expressed my surprise to the teacher afterward, and she
told me no one really teaches about prime ministers anymore.
This is only an anecdote, but it speaks volumes about
the teaching of Canadian history in our schools. The topic
of prime ministers should definitely be included in the history curriculum.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Peter C.
Speaker 4 (41:05):
Newman once wrote that every hour a prime minister spends
in that office is an hour in his country's history.
He's not a functionary, but a man chosen by the
people to embody the national direction. If we want to
understand this country, it is imperative that we understand those
who let it.
Speaker 2 (41:25):
So.
Speaker 4 (41:25):
Then I move on a little bit later into the introduction,
and I conclude it by saying, this brings me to
some burning questions of our times. How do we reconcile
the past with the present? Must our former prime ministers
have been saints by present day standards? How do we
measure their successes and failures? What lens do we use?
(41:47):
If it is a single lens based exclusively on today's
values and ignoring those of the past, then that is
a mistake. Those who lived several decades or even centuries
ago cannot possibly be expected to have viewed the world
the way we do today, just as those of us
living today should not be held to the standard of
a future world about which we have no familiarity when
(42:09):
a judgment is eventually rendered on our actions. These are
difficult questions, but must be explored as we continue to
tell the stories of the past. Even worse would be
to pay no attention at all. School curricula are changing,
and in many instances the relevance of the past is
being diminished. Now is the time for a fresh perspective
(42:30):
on this critical issue. In their nineteen ninety nine book,
Jack Granitstein and Norm Hillmer wrote, today's scoundrel can be
tomorrow's hero, depending on how events and perceptions alter interpretations.
Whether scoundrel or hero or both, Canada's prime ministers have
altered our history. To know them is to know ourselves.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
So I've heard stories that MacDonald was a drunk and
Mackenzie King participated in sealances. Are those some of the
stories that you've got your book?
Speaker 4 (43:02):
Yep?
Speaker 3 (43:02):
Those they're both in the book, you know.
Speaker 4 (43:05):
And I think it's important to see our leaders not
as single dimensional politicians who just make decisions, but they're
humans too, with interests and motivations. And yeah, McDonald's had
a drinking problem, and I think for too long we've
kind of seen that as the joke on McDonald, But
(43:27):
if you look at the life he had, where he
lost a wife, he lost a child, there might have
been some trauma that the poor man suffered because of
death in his family. And maybe now we're getting a
bit more of a modern understanding of people with alcohol problems.
And you know, McDonald joked about it, I guess, and
(43:47):
we didn't take alcoholism seriously then, but you know, he
had a tragic life and I'm sure he was compensating
for something.
Speaker 3 (43:56):
And as for Mackenzie King, you know.
Speaker 4 (43:59):
Spiritualism, there was a subset of people, particularly in Europe,
who for whom spiritualism was a normal and natural part
of their life. And for King that was the case,
and he kept it very private because we all have
private lives too, so the prime ministers are no different.
Speaker 2 (44:17):
You closed your article with a fascinating quote from Lester B. Pearson.
You actually describe it with a word I don't even know.
I can't even pronounce it, apera crple.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
What is that apocryphal?
Speaker 4 (44:31):
Which means maybe he said it, Maybe people just said
he said it, but we think it comes from him, but.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
It's not one percent verified.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Can I read it?
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Yes? Please do.
Speaker 4 (44:43):
It's a it's a fantastic quotation about being prime minister.
Speaker 2 (44:48):
Prime ministers require the hide of a rhinoceros, the morals
of Saint Francis, the patience of job, the wisdom of Solomon,
the strength of Heracles, the the leadership of Napoleon, the
magnetism of a beetle, and the substicularity of Macavelia. What
do you think of that? Tell me what you think
(45:09):
you hear from.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
That, Well, what I hear from that is Pearson saying
it's kind of an impossible job to do, which it
kind of is, and that you know, there's there's you've
got so much coming at you, you know, intrigue, unforeseen problems,
the media gaming for you, and that you really so
(45:31):
you really do need a thick skin, and you need
a lot of patience. You also need I don't know
if Yeah, when he says the strength of hercules, I
think there he's talking about the ability to work hard,
because what a lot of people don't realize about the
job of Prime Minister is that it is an all
consuming job that takes a tremendous amount of time, a
(45:52):
tremendous amount of mental focus, and you know, even the
travel is pretty demanding on the box, as anyone who's
traveled around a lot knows. And I know the Prime
Minister doesn't have to deal with a lot of stuff
when he's traveling in terms of going through customs and
waiting in airports and things like that, but nonetheless, the
time change and travel it's never easy on the body.
(46:14):
So Pearson just saying here that this is a really
hard job and just be prepared for just about anything.
And I think all prime ministers would agree with that. Now,
despite all that, you know, I think it was Pierre
Trudeau who said something like it's better than working at
(46:35):
another job, Like the job is really hard, but it's
better than any other job. So I think I'll be
quite happy to continue to be prime minister.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
So if Mark Carney called you up and asked you
for a coffee or a meeting and said, look, I
hear all of what you got to say. I've read
your book, I've listened to the interview you've done, etc.
But what are the three things that you think I
should do to be courageous to to show inspiration. What
are those three things that I should announce in the
(47:04):
next week.
Speaker 4 (47:05):
What would you tell them, Well, i'd need a little
bit more insight intel from his government about what he's
thinking of doing. But I might say, well, you know,
Prime Minister, I'm going to be in Ottawa next week,
so if you want to have a sit down, let's
do it. I think I would say, decide what the
story's going to be, what's the vision here, hang some
projects on that, be upfront about what we're going to do.
(47:31):
Because I think people are waiting for They don't want
to drip, drab and go.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Yeah, there might be a port, there might not be
a port.
Speaker 4 (47:38):
We're hoping for a pipeline, but we got to see.
I think we need to be a bit more definitive
about some of these things, because some of them are
really hard to do because of the way the country's
put together now in terms of environmental assessments, indigenous people's approvals.
But I would say be a bit more concrete and
firm about what it is you're trying to do, because
(47:59):
it just seems like there's a lot of a lot
of irons in the fire right now, and we don't
really know which ones are going to catch, and so
I would say to be a bit bolder on what
that is and keep repeating it, and do so with
flourish like you mean it.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
JDM Stewart, thanks so much for joining us. I really
appreciate it. Remind us all the title of your book, please.
Speaker 4 (48:21):
It is the Prime Minister's Canada's Leaders and the Nation
they shaped. It's available online at at your favorite bookstore,
in person, wherever you buy your books.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
I think Mark Kearney should give you a call and
hear what you got to say. I agree with you.
I think that being bold is the right strategy. And
I think that we have talked about a lot of
different things. I think he's got to be definitive and
state these are the things that we must do to
create the Canada that we all dream of and that
we've dreamed of for you know, one hundred and plus years.
(48:55):
And I think that if he did that, and if
he said that, I think the kind of who would
be behind him right now. And he's got a almost
a once in a lifetime, once in a country lifetime
kind of opportunity, probably never repeated since maybe Trudeau with
the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, or mulroney with free trade,
(49:16):
or Cretche and Martin with you know, changing our financial situation.
And that's equal to those opportunities to recreate what Canada
is and should be. And I do think that a
national program like a pipeline from east to west, like
(49:36):
the railway that McDonald supported that brought our country together
initially back in eighteen sixty seven, would be the kind
of project that could bring us all together. JDM, thanks
so much for joining us. We really appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (49:50):
Thank you Brian, great conversation.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
That's our show for tonight, everybody, Thank you for joining.
I remind you I'm on every night at six o'clock
on nine to sixty am in Toronto, but you can
get me from across Canada at TRIPLEWSAGA nine sixty am
dot ca. A. My podcast and videos go up on
my website Briancromby dot com, on social media, my YouTube channel,
on podcast servers as soon as the radio show gets
broadcast to air. Thanks for joining us, everybody. This has
(50:14):
been wonderful. JDM. Invite me to your book launch please.
I want to be there and I can congratulate, you
can edit.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
Yeah, we'll do
Speaker 1 (50:25):
Stream us live at SAGA nine six am dot CA
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