March 9, 2026 • 33 mins
Bro. Matthew Brockbank returns to tackle a topic that's both timely and crucial for the health of our Fraternity: bridging the generation gap. From the wisdom of our seasoned Baby Boomers to the energy and innovation of Millennials, Freemasonry is a tapestry woven from diverse experiences. Find out how multigenerational Lodges have discovered the key to unlock knowledge and form amazing friendships.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concordant Body, appendant Body, a
Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey, welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only
Masonic podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York.
I'm your host, right worshipe for Brother Michael ar say
ah here we are in too March. Do want to
say thank you again to our Patreon subscribers, Hey man,
that five dollars a month, it goes a long way.
You get ad free episodes and access to our back
catalog of subscriber extra episodes where we get some extra
(00:52):
time with some of our guests, like this week's guest.
I think we have like another what twenty five minutes
queued up with Matt. Yeah, that's going to be an
amazing one. All of that goes to help power this show,
from our virtual recording studio to the software that we use.
Your five dollars goes far, and I thank you for
helping us support the mission of bringing Freemasonry to those
who have an interest in it. You can start your
(01:13):
free seven day trial on Patreon, at Craftsman Online, or
by clicking on the link that you'll find in the
episode description. Boom right there in the show notes, you
got it. The word perennial favorite doesn't even come close
to describe our guests for this week, as Brother Matthew
Brockbank returns to tackle a topic that's kind of timely
and crucial for the health of our fraternity, the generation
(01:36):
gap and how we can bridge this. But before we
even get into the topic, Matt, every time you come
on the podcast, you say something before I hit the
record button, and I just want to make sure our
listener gets a chance to hear it.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
This is maybe the episode that I finally get canceled,
because you know, I'm going to say something eventually that
people are going to say, what the hell? But you
know I have strong opinions and this is often a
touchy subjects. So let's see, let's see if I can
do it.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
What is the goal of getting canceled? Why? Why you,
of all people, why do you want to get canceled
so bad? Man? You're you're a good guy.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
No, No, it's it's not. It's not a want. It's
just I so funny thing. A long time ago, I
worked for a startup and one of their core tenants
was embracing conflict. And at first I said, what I said,
why would you even want conflict to begin with? You know,
a good company doesn't even have conflict. What is embracing conflict?
(02:30):
I'm like, that's stupid, that's what a waste of time.
But then I like, you know, as I kind of
matured and understood what that meant, you know, it clicked.
You know, when when there are uncomfortable situations, when there
is you know, conflict, the best thing to do is
just to face it head on and and and you know,
have those difficult conversations, which I think is true of
most you know, most relationships, most organizations, you know, companies,
(02:53):
small businesses, groups of friends, what have you. You know, uh,
embrace conflict. So you know, sometimes the stuff that we
talk about is not always easy and it is sometimes touchy.
So in my opinion, it's best just to go right
at it, you know, get it out there, get it
out there.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I sent you this outline. I knew that this would
be a great person to have a discussion with. This episode,
like many comes on the heels of going to a
very insightful lodge meeting where there was a program and
a brother stood up, and you know, I was kind
of outlining it to you, but I just want to
show this of the listeners. They get it where they're
like bridging the generational gap, Like what are these guys
going to be talking about here? No, we're not talking
(03:31):
about PEPSI or Michael Jackson music or anything like that.
What we're talking about is how you can take the
youngest person in your lodge. And when I saw this
experiment happen, the brother was nineteen as a newly raised
master mason, and then the oldest member in the lodge
who was just a little bit more of a young
man than your dad. So he was in his maybe
(03:54):
mid to almost late eighties, okay, and so at the
very very low end of the silent generation, right or
the greatest generation, I should say, and had them sit
next to each other in the lodge, and the way
that the brother that gave this program talked about it was, Okay,
So this guy who's nineteen, his preferred communication method is
(04:16):
his cell phone. He's always taking pictures, he's recording video,
he's sharing on social media. The brother in his eighties
still had a flip phone. He was on you know,
consumer Wireless or the Senior Plan or whatever, and he's like,
here's the reason why video doesn't mean anything to him,
because he remembers things.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
He doesn't need to take pictures.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And they were comparing and contrasting the two and the
one thing that they had in common was that they
were master Masons, right, And then the question was, okay,
so who or what is the bridge between these two generations,
And it was all of you guys use gen xers,
U millennials and potentially even some would say gen zers
in the like you are all the people that are
(04:55):
the creamy filling in this oreo cookie. So there was
a good few and I felt like this call to
duty as a close to being middle aged Freemason. But
I'm curious when it comes to lodges that you have
visited and we share the same home jurisdiction, what's your
honest assessment of the age makeup of most Masonic lodges
(05:16):
you've stepped foot in.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Well, I've been to a good handful of lodges in
upstate New York, one or two out of state, couple.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
In the city.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I tend to see. And I know that this is
not every lodge, but most of them, I want to
say them bed in age is probably sixty something. M Yeah,
I mean it's there are definitely, don't get me wrong,
Even in upstate New York, there are definitely younger lodges.
You know, I'm friends with a lot of guys at
(05:52):
those younger lodges. They certainly are they have a different
vibe as the kids are saying, right, they definitely exist,
and they're definitely out there, and they might be the
future that we need this craft to attract more people.
But for the most part, right generally speaking, if you
(06:13):
had to, if you had to pitch an advertisement or freemasonry,
it would probably come with somebody in their fifties or sixties.
You know, that would hit I think most of our
demographic and I think that that's a pretty not just
on a s assessment, but I think that's a valid
piece of data. I think the I think, actually, in
(06:34):
if I'm not mistaken, the last time I saw the
data from Grand Lodge, I think our median age is
fifty five. Could be wrong about that, don't quote me
on it, but I think that might be correct.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
But yeah, yeah, even here in the nation's capital, the
Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia, it's same. And
when you go to lodge meetings, the demographic team tends
to skew you a little bit younger. You still have
a few older guys in there. But what we're seeing
a lot now since like post COVID, in a lot
of communities, like the older brothers aren't going to lodge
as much because they got the routine of it. There's
(07:04):
the safety, there's the health and the hazard issues, or
there's just the hey, they're older and they don't want
to go because there's no reason to go, just like
a lot of the younger brothers don't want to go anymore.
So that could be a problem. The other thing I
would add on that, and we were talking about this
a little bit before I hit the record button, is
the idea that age is really just a number.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Is just a number, man.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
But there was a time when you and I were, yes,
physically the young guys in the lodge, right, we were.
I'd at as like a county fair prize because we
came in They're like, oh, jeez, can't wait to get
him in the line like this is going to be great, right, No,
we were right. There was a reason why they were
bringing us in because we were supposed to be the
(07:48):
future of the lodge. And now we're at the age
where we've been doing this for ten plus years, so
we're kind of still physically young but masonically old. But
then that doesn't really matter because you'll have a guy
who could be older than us, like a past master
of Saint John's that came in who within three years
(08:08):
or four years became master of his lodge. But is
it's closer to retirement age than than you and I are.
So there's also the Masonic age, I think is something
else that we have to consider when you look at
the the demographics of the lodge.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Absolutely, that's something that I always, you know, have to
remind myself of is that new Masons are not you know,
in their twenties always.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
They can be in their thirties, forties, fifties, sixties. We've had,
I think we've abducted people in their seventies before.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So you know, you can be any age biologically speaking,
and you can be a new Mason.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
You can be a you know, senior or elder Mason.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah, a sonic age does have a distinction between you know,
biological age and but they it's it's it's so strange
though to or I shouldn't say strange. It's really interesting
to kind of analyze that dichotomy there because I will say,
all young people are typically young Masons just by virtue
(09:08):
of not being alive long enough to be an older Mason.
But you can have, you know, an older person be
a young Mason. So that is like, that's the strange
one sometimes, you know, young people can only be young
Mason for the most part. However, I you know, you
do see once in a while, and I was one
of them. You know, you see guys that come in.
(09:29):
When I joined, twenty one was the entry aide. So
when I joined, I was twenty one, and you know,
I've been a Mason now for almost you know, almost two.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Decades, which is kind of crazy to think about.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
You know, a couple more years and we'll get there,
which is which is cool, but uh, that seems kind
of nuts sometimes when I think about it. So you know,
you can't have younger people that gather that experience quickly.
But for the most part, young men equals young Masons.
And older men equals older Masons, so really speak.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Another reason I thought this is the perfect guest to
have on the show was last year twenty twenty five,
the episode that scored the you know, second most listened
to Craftsman Online podcast episode for twenty twenty five was
your whole show around wiremen leaving our lodges and what
can we do to get them back right? And we
kind of touched a little bit on the agism that
(10:23):
tends to be the stereotype around freemasonry, and you hit
it like, you know, you walk into our lodge, you're
an outsider. You're like, Oh, there's guys all wearing suits
and ties. Oh they're guys. They're also older guys. Oh
I feel like I'm hanging out with my dad or
my dad's friends, or in some cases even my grandfather. Right,
And there's this myth that young guys don't want to
(10:44):
hang out with the old guys and maybe, and maybe
vice versa, did you find any truth to that when
you were doing your research.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I wouldn't say that age was the factor that drove
people apart, but I guess what you would say is
when you looked at why people disagreed. Typically it was
over something else that did correlate with age, but age
(11:15):
was never Age was never by itself the cause. And
I'm talking about again biological age. You know, it's not
that older people did not like younger people and younger
people did not.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
Like older people.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I would say that Masonic age and in Masonic experience,
I think had a little bit more to do with
why people disagreed. However, I also find that to be
ironic because I find that no matter how long you
are a Mason, it doesn't make you a better mason.
You know, there is you could have someone who's five
(11:50):
years in who could be just as good of a
you know, quote unquote mason, or just as learned and
studied as a as a person who's been there for
thirty years. So I find it kind of you know, uh, well,
I don't want to say people are being egotistical, but
when when you have Masons that have been there for
a long time and they you know, they kind of
(12:11):
throw that weight around, you know, I find that completely invalid.
And I find that to be one of the one
of the worst things about masonry is when you have
older or I should say more senior Masonic men who
use their time in masonry as some kind of.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Badge of authority. You know it.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
It doesn't mean anything, you know, I don't. You know,
you could be there for one year, you could be
there for one hundred years.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
I don't personally see a difference and in you know,
how good of a Mason you are, how good of
a man you are, or how well you can run
a lodge. Certainly there are definitely things to learn along
the way about masonry that that may help you, but
I don't find those things to be exclusive to your
Masonic age.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
One of the things that I found refreshing was a
friend of the show, and I think to Saint George's
Lodge as well, Sam Friedman. He wrote the book The
Millennial Apprentice and gave a bunch of data in that book,
and it was and he came and spoke at our
lodge and talked a little bit about one of the chapters,
and I just loved him for all the research he
went into it. But he kind of did kind of
toss a big hammer onto the myth that hey, old guy,
(13:14):
young guys don't want to be mentored. And he's like,
especially this generation this millennial generation more than anything. They're
looking for that, they're seeking that, Like Masonry needs to
respond to that and show that and open their doors
and be there for these guys I know personally, like
some of my favorite lodge conversations not in the launch
but like dinner time, you know, the parking lot at
(13:37):
the bar conversations has been with the older brothers because
they're just walking volumes of wisdom, and when they open
up and talk about anything from freemasonry to just life,
you're like, thank you so much, this is awesome.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Sure, I would agree, except I would push back on
that because I want to say that there's a difference
between mentoring and trying to manage. Right, They're definitely great
mentors out there. I've talked to many Masons who have
been great mentors. But I've also experienced a lot of
(14:13):
men who want to be bossy because they think that
their Masonic wisdom or the time in their lot in
the lodge makes them some kind of superior to others.
They are just bossing the younger Masons around, and the
younger Masons may feel like, oh, like this is this
is me being mentored?
Speaker 5 (14:32):
Am i am I being mentored?
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Right now, I don't like.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
This doesn't feel very good, but I guess so. And
the older Mason may say like, ah, yes, I am
trying to mentor you, but like it's not mentoring at all.
You know, I'm not trying to say it's it's you know,
gaslighting or something you know nefarious, but you know it's
it's not always the same.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
And I don't think just because your Mason makes you,
you know, a good mentor.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I think those specific ones are the ones you're talking about,
the ones I'm thinking of. You know, they do kind
of gradually, you know, shine on their own. But you know,
not everyone necessarily is is a good mentor for other people.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
But it's hard to totally agree.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And I think that's that's also when we talk about
the bridge, the person who's going to fill this gap,
Like that's where we have to step in. Whether it's
the you know, middle aged brother they can speak, you know,
the language of both guys, or the brother that's been
there for ten plus years they can go, Okay, past master,
we really expect, you know, respect what you did in
nineteen eighty seven, and that was an.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Awesome year for our lodge.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
But here in twenty twenty six, Like the way that
we're doing teaching, it's evolved a little bit, and this
is this is how this guy prefers to get the instruction,
and can we kind of work on this together and
kind of be that middle person for that. But it
kind of also comes down to the next point I
wanted to make, which is communication, and it's so key
to any successful organization. You kind of tease like, there
(15:51):
sometimes there has to be that that healthy divide that
you know, that argument that takes place, that debate, that
that passion fueled thing that so that you can see
where both sides are and then we can come to
a level point and go there. There is such a
different way that the generations like to communicate. And I
think of you know, your father, for example, representing the
(16:14):
older generation respectfully and you and I'm like, I wonder
does just Matt and his dad do they communicate via text, email,
phone call?
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Still?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Does your dad still write letters? Like how does your
dad like to talk with people?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Funny thing, I'm actually the guy who likes to write
letters more than anybody because I just have a passion
for you know, stationary and fountain pens and things.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
But that's me being you know, you know, being a
little extra.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
I have the best conversations with my dad, either in
person or over the phone.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
We're not texters, you know. He texts, you know, like quick.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Thoughts, and I, being of you know, the millennial generation,
I can do both, but I tend to text in
full sentences because it is my one of my preferred
methods of communication. It's it's so funny that you mentioned,
you know, uh, communication, because I think communication goes.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Hand in hand with technology, and you know, there is kind.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Of a there's a little bit of a learning gap
there between you know, the younger Masons and the older
Uh sorry, I should say the younger people in lodge
and older people in lodge.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Again has nothing to do with sonic, you know, experience
and age, but.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
The younger people in lodge typically do prefer a different
modification compared to the older folks, although I do I
will say I have seen more older folks just straight
up pull out their cell phone in the middle of
lodge to punch in you know, the next the next
date or something. And I'm like, look at you, Look
at you using technology over here. Look at it so amazing.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Oh god, Oh, my favorite is when their cell phone
goes off and they're like bomb explaining like oh my god,
let me put this up.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
It's like it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
We know you know, you know who it is by
their by their ring tone, like that's that and okay,
(18:23):
all right.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
I'm gonna preface this by saying, I mean no disrespect,
but here it.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
Comes load the torpedo.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I think that the younger Masons should drive the lodge
period full stop. And I say that again with no
disrespect or with you know, I'm not trying to uh,
you know, forget about someone's experience or or you know,
(18:57):
discourage them speaking up if they have have the experience.
I have a strong feeling for age limits and term
limits right in politics at all levels, right from city
council all the way to the president. I think term
limits and age limits should be a real thing, you know,
And I believe that that is also the case in Mason.
(19:21):
And it's not to take power away, and it's not
to make them feel small or say, hey, your time
is up. You know, we're sun setting you here. But
when you have younger Masons, right, the decisions that they
make are going to affect them and so I have,
you know, in my experience, and it is my feeling
(19:42):
that they will take those decisions and think about them
part and really kind of you know, sit down and say, no,
this is what I have to deal with. This is
what I have to you know, these are the decisions
I'm making, and this is the outcome that I have
to put up with for the next twenty thirty years.
As a person who has I've been in a lodge
for you know, forty forty five almost fifty years.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Any decision you make isn't really.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Going to affect you, you know how much longer. And
I like, I know how this sounds. And this is
like the worst part because you have to like come
to terms with the mortality of man and the mortality
of lodge. And that is what you do today may
not affect you at all, because you know you may
be gone, not because you know, not saying you're gonna
(20:29):
drop dead you know, tomorrow, but you know you may
not be able to physically make it to lodge. You
may you know, may not be able to participate for
one reason or another.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
And this sucks.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
But like this is like it's it's the reality of
like owning a dog, you know, you know that you're
gonna have that dog for maybe ten twelve years, and
that's like such a heartbreak because you know it's gonna happen.
The same thing with lodge, like you know, you know,
these brothers have done so much good and they have
all this great experience, but at the end of the day,
I feel like the more power we put in the
(21:00):
younger you know, and I mean young people, right, not
just young Masons, but younger people.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
I think that that is the best.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Way to drive the Lodge forward because if you're doing it,
you know, with their intention and the kind of in
their image. I think it also helps to attract younger
members more than if you have your you know, older
Masons driving the lodge. And again I think they take
you know, the responsibility of those decisions to heart more
than some of the older guys do. And I that's
(21:29):
a very hard conversation to have, and no one likes
to have it. And I mean, it sucks for me
to talk about it because it makes me feel kind
of gross and at the same time, like I again
like I don't want to just you know, say no,
you can't vote, or or no we shouldn't listen to you, Like, That's.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Not what I'm saying at all.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
You know, obviously, you know, every Mason should have the
same rights, same privileges to vote. But when it comes
down to like, you know, if you're if you're at
a stalemate or you're at a tiebreaker, think about.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
What the younger Masons want. No, they should be steering
the ship. They should be doing it.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
And if you don't have younger members, think about why
you don't have younger members. You know, I can't stress
that enough because I hate to say it, but without
the younger members, without four basins, right, you just don't
have a lodge. And I'm saying this full well knowing
that one day I will be the old guy in
the lodge.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
And I hope that.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
The lodge listens to the younger folks and not me.
I hope they look to the younger folks.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, I don't think you're gonna get canceled on that one.
It could have gone worse. I was waiting for you
to go, Okay. Further, I'm like, oh, Matt, got really
dark there for a second. But no, I get what
you're saying. I think that all past masters deep down
inside and all older members, senior members, elder members, more
tenured members, whatever the term is that you want to use.
(22:50):
I think that they want to see the next generation,
the next the new guys step up.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
I think so too.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yes, that's kind of why we brought them in. I
kind of alluded to that as like, we don't just
bring in gus he asked, we bring them in to
be Masons, and we bring them in to be a
part of discussions and all those wonderful things, but we
also look at them and go, well, hey, that guy's
got potentially he could be master of this lodge in
like seven years. Like as a father myself and having
this moment with my son much later in life, my son,
(23:16):
Mikey didn't learn to ride a bike until he was
like twelve thirteen years old, just because he had really
no desire to ride a bike.
Speaker 5 (23:25):
It was really weird.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Teaching a teenage boy how to ride a bike and
to see the thrill that would come on his face
when his sister did it when she was like, you know,
the typical age of kids riding bikes like five or six, right,
you could flash forward now he's almost twenty years old
and still doesn't have a driver's license because he has
no real interest in doing it. It's like, son, you're
(23:48):
gonna need to invest in better shoes or a bike.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
Hey, you should always invest in better shoes.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
And he touches the ground, you should always rest shoes, tires.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Nothing brought more joy to my face.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
So then now as a two year removed past master
of at least by loge in DC, and to see
the new master come in and start delegating things, and
it was that moment of when you're running behind a
child and you just let go of the bike and
you're like, oh, just stay with it, you got it,
just stay unbalance, and you see them go and you're like, oh,
(24:20):
well they hit a bush, Oh they hit the curb,
or hey, they just kept.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Going to break that.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I almost came to a little bit of a tear
seeing that. It was also kind of that scene from
Mary Poppins when you when she realizes the kids don't
need her anymore, Like they can, they can, and now
you can have a different relationship with everything. Right now
you get to be the advisor, the counselor you're not
stepping into like save the day. To your point, like
(24:50):
we as the younger people misrepresent and we think, oh,
they're being and you know what.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
I'm not going to say all of them, aren't some
of them here's my love torpedo speed. That's right. Some
of them want to be crumungeons. Some of them. This
is their outlet for that.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
This is where they feel important still, This is where
they were supposed to leave all that outside world stuff
at the door.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
But this is where they get.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
To be somebody in life now and that and that's
that's a reality of the situation, right, But not all
of them.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
I'm glad you said that because you know, you're talking
like the way you explain it. You know, yes, the
older Masons, they are happy that the younger Masons are
stepping up in a yes, in a perfect world, that
is good and and you seem to speak from an
experience of having those good leaders around, but when you
have the opposite, when you have bad leaders, you know,
(25:43):
they they want the younger people to only run the
lodge the way that they would have run the lodge,
or they try to keep their fingers, you know, kind
of sunk deep into their you know, shoulders, and try
to you know, kind of marrying that kind of puppet
the younger masters, which is oh man, it's it's so
gross to watch.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Well, I look at that as a really bad green
algae ridden pool, and what's stronger than chlorine shock? And
sometimes that's what you got to drop in a large
situation like that. I feel like we've offered a lot
(26:37):
of good golden gems. You're gonna make it this episode
without getting canceled. I'm super happy about that.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
I don't know, Mike, I'm looking at your questions. We
got a couple more views here.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
I can still do it. I can still do it.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
This could be it, all right, So I know, I
said gen X Mason's let's go to millennials as well.
We talk about technology sometimes that is the barrier because
it's always innovating, it's always changing, there's always something new
in the world. But how can we as these these
these middle ground Masons with the newer because now there's
guys even younger than you that are coming into the lodge,
(27:08):
these whipper snappers, how can we provide that that bridge,
that gap filling role for the older brothers so they
don't feel so taxed in having to feel like they
need to somehow relate to people that are their great
grandkids or grandchildren's age.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Perfect question.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
So, as you were stating earlier, right, you have to
be that bridge between the older and the younger Masons,
or the older and the younger generations of people. So
I'm sure that most lodges, unless you're kind of weird
and you only have you only have twenty two year
olds and only have eighty year olds, which is I
don't know how that happened, but typically typically a lodge
(27:48):
has a you know, a range of people. I think
that the best way that this works, right is again
you have the younger Masons steering, and then you have
the next kind of generation up.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
So if we're talking gen Z now is.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
In the lodge and they're coming of age and they're
coming up through line, right, they're steering the lodge.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well, I was just going to ask this really kind
of defining question because I get confused with generation that
I'm in exactly.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
It's weird because sometimes you can physically be of one generation,
but like mentally be of a different one.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
And I feel that way.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
A lot because I am physically of the millennial generation,
but mentally speaking, I feel like I'm or gen X
because of how I was raised and where my parents were,
So you know, you're kind of like mental and you
know the age you are kind of like, you know,
in the household that you grew up, I think can
be a little bit different than your physical like when
(28:43):
you were born age.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
This is the last one that I had in my
torpedo tube. Here as we look ahead, we're hoping always
the best. It's the positive intent, right. We want freemasonry
to stay relevant. We want us to say vibrant, But
there's there's this thing about freemasonry and really maybe this
was the question I should have move to the front
of the podcast. When you talk about being more appealing
to different generations, do younger generations look at something like
(29:10):
freemasonry that is stewed. We use words like ritual, We
use words like principal tenants and values and morals and code, tradition,
and there's other organizations you could join that do not
mention that stuff at all, Like how do we keep
freemasonry relevant with those classic ties to something that's new
(29:33):
that's coming in for flashing and lights and excitement.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Way to bury the lead by the put the relevant
question at the end, I think that in order to
keep Freemasonry vibrant, I really think that you have to
meet people where they are. And again, this goes back to,
you know, keeping the brotherhood fresh and bringing in new
members because you know, freemasonry always has that history, that ritual.
(30:04):
You know, that's never going to go anywhere. You can't
take that away from freemasonry. I don't care if freemasonry
is you know, twenty second clips on TikTok, or if
freemasonry is you know, integrated with technology in some way,
it doesn't.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
Matter what the future of freemasonry is.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
You can't take away the history of it, so it's
always going to be there, okay. And I think that
that if I were to give Masons one like takeaway
from all of this, it would be don't worry about
the history of Freemasonry going anywhere, because you can't remove it.
Speaker 5 (30:39):
You can't erase it. And people who want to seek
it out they will. They'll seek it out. You know,
they'll pore over.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
The books like you and I have done, and they'll
they'll start doing ritual. You know, they'll stand up and
they'll give the speeches and the monologues. You know, they'll
become you know, the Franks, you know, the historians of
the lodge. They will like the artifacts. They will go
to the museums, you know, they'll visit the Livingston Library.
Speaker 5 (31:05):
They will do that.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
We don't have to, we don't have to pitch free
masonry with the history.
Speaker 5 (31:11):
Of it all.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
But we do have to keep masonry relevant to people
that are coming up, because if we don't, then we
never get them in the door in the first place,
and we simply just disappear, you know that we turn
into those old books that are stuffed away in a
corner somewhere. And if you think that that's not the case,
I would tell people to look at other societies, other groups,
(31:37):
other organizations that have come and gone and they were,
you know, popular, and now they're no more. So if
freemasonry wants to keep itself relevant, they have to meet
people where they're at. And that means and this may
I'm going to ruffle some feathers ready, this is where
we're gonna get canceled.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
Free masonry has to become part of the metaverse. No,
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
I wouldn't recommend the metaverse, but freemasonry has to embrace technology.
It has to become digital, it has to become something
that this next generation cares about.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
And what do I mean by that?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
So, yeah, when we're talking about communication, like earlier, I
communicate with some brothers and certain lodges over discord. Right,
it's basically a virtual lodge room. You know, it really
could be if you really wanted it to be.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Thanks again to our guest this week, Brother Matthew Brockbank,
will be bridging some extra time with him. If you're
a subscriber extra Oh yeah, dude, it's an episode just
for you this Thursday, about twenty five extra minutes.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Is that what we said?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, some bonus time with Matt and we'll continue our
discussion on millennials how to improve our lodges and see
if we can get him to his goal of being canceled.
We'll never figure that out. I'm right, worship of Brother
Michael Arsa. I always enjoy our time together. We've got
another great episode cued up next week as Monday. Our
guests will be Worshipful Brother David Dehausen, who's going to
(33:02):
share his presentation on the Irish Masons of the seventeen
ninety eight Rebellion. It's a good one if you like
Masonic history. Until then, let peace and harmony prevail.
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concordant Body, appendant Body, a
Masonic authority, or Craftsman Online dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hey, welcome back to the Craftsman Online Podcast, the only
Masonic podcast endorsed by the Grand Lodge of New York.
I'm your host, right worshipe for Brother Michael ar say
ah here we are in too March. Do want to
say thank you again to our Patreon subscribers, Hey man,
that five dollars a month, it goes a long way.
You get ad free episodes and access to our back
catalog of subscriber extra episodes where we get some extra
(00:52):
time with some of our guests, like this week's guest.
I think we have like another what twenty five minutes
queued up with Matt. Yeah, that's going to be an
amazing one. All of that goes to help power this show,
from our virtual recording studio to the software that we use.
Your five dollars goes far, and I thank you for
helping us support the mission of bringing Freemasonry to those
who have an interest in it. You can start your
(01:13):
free seven day trial on Patreon, at Craftsman Online, or
by clicking on the link that you'll find in the
episode description. Boom right there in the show notes, you
got it. The word perennial favorite doesn't even come close
to describe our guests for this week, as Brother Matthew
Brockbank returns to tackle a topic that's kind of timely
and crucial for the health of our fraternity, the generation
(01:36):
gap and how we can bridge this. But before we
even get into the topic, Matt, every time you come
on the podcast, you say something before I hit the
record button, and I just want to make sure our
listener gets a chance to hear it.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
This is maybe the episode that I finally get canceled,
because you know, I'm going to say something eventually that
people are going to say, what the hell? But you
know I have strong opinions and this is often a
touchy subjects. So let's see, let's see if I can
do it.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
What is the goal of getting canceled? Why? Why you,
of all people, why do you want to get canceled
so bad? Man? You're you're a good guy.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
No, No, it's it's not. It's not a want. It's
just I so funny thing. A long time ago, I
worked for a startup and one of their core tenants
was embracing conflict. And at first I said, what I said,
why would you even want conflict to begin with? You know,
a good company doesn't even have conflict. What is embracing conflict?
(02:30):
I'm like, that's stupid, that's what a waste of time.
But then I like, you know, as I kind of
matured and understood what that meant, you know, it clicked.
You know, when when there are uncomfortable situations, when there
is you know, conflict, the best thing to do is
just to face it head on and and and you know,
have those difficult conversations, which I think is true of
most you know, most relationships, most organizations, you know, companies,
(02:53):
small businesses, groups of friends, what have you. You know, uh,
embrace conflict. So you know, sometimes the stuff that we
talk about is not always easy and it is sometimes touchy.
So in my opinion, it's best just to go right
at it, you know, get it out there, get it
out there.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
I sent you this outline. I knew that this would
be a great person to have a discussion with. This episode,
like many comes on the heels of going to a
very insightful lodge meeting where there was a program and
a brother stood up, and you know, I was kind
of outlining it to you, but I just want to
show this of the listeners. They get it where they're
like bridging the generational gap, Like what are these guys
going to be talking about here? No, we're not talking
(03:31):
about PEPSI or Michael Jackson music or anything like that.
What we're talking about is how you can take the
youngest person in your lodge. And when I saw this
experiment happen, the brother was nineteen as a newly raised
master mason, and then the oldest member in the lodge
who was just a little bit more of a young
man than your dad. So he was in his maybe
(03:54):
mid to almost late eighties, okay, and so at the
very very low end of the silent generation, right or
the greatest generation, I should say, and had them sit
next to each other in the lodge, and the way
that the brother that gave this program talked about it was, Okay,
So this guy who's nineteen, his preferred communication method is
(04:16):
his cell phone. He's always taking pictures, he's recording video,
he's sharing on social media. The brother in his eighties
still had a flip phone. He was on you know,
consumer Wireless or the Senior Plan or whatever, and he's like,
here's the reason why video doesn't mean anything to him,
because he remembers things.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
He doesn't need to take pictures.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
And they were comparing and contrasting the two and the
one thing that they had in common was that they
were master Masons, right, And then the question was, okay,
so who or what is the bridge between these two generations,
And it was all of you guys use gen xers,
U millennials and potentially even some would say gen zers
in the like you are all the people that are
(04:55):
the creamy filling in this oreo cookie. So there was
a good few and I felt like this call to
duty as a close to being middle aged Freemason. But
I'm curious when it comes to lodges that you have
visited and we share the same home jurisdiction, what's your
honest assessment of the age makeup of most Masonic lodges
(05:16):
you've stepped foot in.
Speaker 3 (05:18):
Well, I've been to a good handful of lodges in
upstate New York, one or two out of state, couple.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
In the city.
Speaker 3 (05:30):
I tend to see. And I know that this is
not every lodge, but most of them, I want to
say them bed in age is probably sixty something. M Yeah,
I mean it's there are definitely, don't get me wrong,
Even in upstate New York, there are definitely younger lodges.
You know, I'm friends with a lot of guys at
(05:52):
those younger lodges. They certainly are they have a different
vibe as the kids are saying, right, they definitely exist,
and they're definitely out there, and they might be the
future that we need this craft to attract more people.
But for the most part, right generally speaking, if you
(06:13):
had to, if you had to pitch an advertisement or freemasonry,
it would probably come with somebody in their fifties or sixties.
You know, that would hit I think most of our
demographic and I think that that's a pretty not just
on a s assessment, but I think that's a valid
piece of data. I think the I think, actually, in
(06:34):
if I'm not mistaken, the last time I saw the
data from Grand Lodge, I think our median age is
fifty five. Could be wrong about that, don't quote me
on it, but I think that might be correct.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
But yeah, yeah, even here in the nation's capital, the
Grand Lodge of the District of Columbia, it's same. And
when you go to lodge meetings, the demographic team tends
to skew you a little bit younger. You still have
a few older guys in there. But what we're seeing
a lot now since like post COVID, in a lot
of communities, like the older brothers aren't going to lodge
as much because they got the routine of it. There's
(07:04):
the safety, there's the health and the hazard issues, or
there's just the hey, they're older and they don't want
to go because there's no reason to go, just like
a lot of the younger brothers don't want to go anymore.
So that could be a problem. The other thing I
would add on that, and we were talking about this
a little bit before I hit the record button, is
the idea that age is really just a number.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Is just a number, man.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
But there was a time when you and I were, yes,
physically the young guys in the lodge, right, we were.
I'd at as like a county fair prize because we
came in They're like, oh, jeez, can't wait to get
him in the line like this is going to be great, right, No,
we were right. There was a reason why they were
bringing us in because we were supposed to be the
(07:48):
future of the lodge. And now we're at the age
where we've been doing this for ten plus years, so
we're kind of still physically young but masonically old. But
then that doesn't really matter because you'll have a guy
who could be older than us, like a past master
of Saint John's that came in who within three years
(08:08):
or four years became master of his lodge. But is
it's closer to retirement age than than you and I are.
So there's also the Masonic age, I think is something
else that we have to consider when you look at
the the demographics of the lodge.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Absolutely, that's something that I always, you know, have to
remind myself of is that new Masons are not you know,
in their twenties always.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
They can be in their thirties, forties, fifties, sixties. We've had,
I think we've abducted people in their seventies before.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
So you know, you can be any age biologically speaking,
and you can be a new Mason.
Speaker 5 (08:43):
You can be a you know, senior or elder Mason.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Yeah, a sonic age does have a distinction between you know,
biological age and but they it's it's it's so strange
though to or I shouldn't say strange. It's really interesting
to kind of analyze that dichotomy there because I will say,
all young people are typically young Masons just by virtue
(09:08):
of not being alive long enough to be an older Mason.
But you can have, you know, an older person be
a young Mason. So that is like, that's the strange
one sometimes, you know, young people can only be young
Mason for the most part. However, I you know, you
do see once in a while, and I was one
of them. You know, you see guys that come in.
(09:29):
When I joined, twenty one was the entry aide. So
when I joined, I was twenty one, and you know,
I've been a Mason now for almost you know, almost two.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
Decades, which is kind of crazy to think about.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
You know, a couple more years and we'll get there,
which is which is cool, but uh, that seems kind
of nuts sometimes when I think about it. So you know,
you can't have younger people that gather that experience quickly.
But for the most part, young men equals young Masons.
And older men equals older Masons, so really speak.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Another reason I thought this is the perfect guest to
have on the show was last year twenty twenty five,
the episode that scored the you know, second most listened
to Craftsman Online podcast episode for twenty twenty five was
your whole show around wiremen leaving our lodges and what
can we do to get them back right? And we
kind of touched a little bit on the agism that
(10:23):
tends to be the stereotype around freemasonry, and you hit
it like, you know, you walk into our lodge, you're
an outsider. You're like, Oh, there's guys all wearing suits
and ties. Oh they're guys. They're also older guys. Oh
I feel like I'm hanging out with my dad or
my dad's friends, or in some cases even my grandfather. Right,
And there's this myth that young guys don't want to
(10:44):
hang out with the old guys and maybe, and maybe
vice versa, did you find any truth to that when
you were doing your research.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
I wouldn't say that age was the factor that drove
people apart, but I guess what you would say is
when you looked at why people disagreed. Typically it was
over something else that did correlate with age, but age
(11:15):
was never Age was never by itself the cause. And
I'm talking about again biological age. You know, it's not
that older people did not like younger people and younger
people did not.
Speaker 5 (11:25):
Like older people.
Speaker 3 (11:28):
I would say that Masonic age and in Masonic experience,
I think had a little bit more to do with
why people disagreed. However, I also find that to be
ironic because I find that no matter how long you
are a Mason, it doesn't make you a better mason.
You know, there is you could have someone who's five
(11:50):
years in who could be just as good of a
you know, quote unquote mason, or just as learned and
studied as a as a person who's been there for
thirty years. So I find it kind of you know, uh, well,
I don't want to say people are being egotistical, but
when when you have Masons that have been there for
a long time and they you know, they kind of
(12:11):
throw that weight around, you know, I find that completely invalid.
And I find that to be one of the one
of the worst things about masonry is when you have
older or I should say more senior Masonic men who
use their time in masonry as some kind of.
Speaker 5 (12:25):
Badge of authority. You know it.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
It doesn't mean anything, you know, I don't. You know,
you could be there for one year, you could be
there for one hundred years.
Speaker 5 (12:33):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
I don't personally see a difference and in you know,
how good of a Mason you are, how good of
a man you are, or how well you can run
a lodge. Certainly there are definitely things to learn along
the way about masonry that that may help you, but
I don't find those things to be exclusive to your
Masonic age.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
One of the things that I found refreshing was a
friend of the show, and I think to Saint George's
Lodge as well, Sam Friedman. He wrote the book The
Millennial Apprentice and gave a bunch of data in that book,
and it was and he came and spoke at our
lodge and talked a little bit about one of the chapters,
and I just loved him for all the research he
went into it. But he kind of did kind of
toss a big hammer onto the myth that hey, old guy,
(13:14):
young guys don't want to be mentored. And he's like,
especially this generation this millennial generation more than anything. They're
looking for that, they're seeking that, Like Masonry needs to
respond to that and show that and open their doors
and be there for these guys I know personally, like
some of my favorite lodge conversations not in the launch
but like dinner time, you know, the parking lot at
(13:37):
the bar conversations has been with the older brothers because
they're just walking volumes of wisdom, and when they open
up and talk about anything from freemasonry to just life,
you're like, thank you so much, this is awesome.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Sure, I would agree, except I would push back on
that because I want to say that there's a difference
between mentoring and trying to manage. Right, They're definitely great
mentors out there. I've talked to many Masons who have
been great mentors. But I've also experienced a lot of
(14:13):
men who want to be bossy because they think that
their Masonic wisdom or the time in their lot in
the lodge makes them some kind of superior to others.
They are just bossing the younger Masons around, and the
younger Masons may feel like, oh, like this is this
is me being mentored?
Speaker 5 (14:32):
Am i am I being mentored?
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Right now, I don't like.
Speaker 3 (14:34):
This doesn't feel very good, but I guess so. And
the older Mason may say like, ah, yes, I am
trying to mentor you, but like it's not mentoring at all.
You know, I'm not trying to say it's it's you know,
gaslighting or something you know nefarious, but you know it's
it's not always the same.
Speaker 5 (14:48):
And I don't think just because your Mason makes you,
you know, a good mentor.
Speaker 3 (14:52):
I think those specific ones are the ones you're talking about,
the ones I'm thinking of. You know, they do kind
of gradually, you know, shine on their own. But you know,
not everyone necessarily is is a good mentor for other people.
Speaker 5 (15:08):
But it's hard to totally agree.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
And I think that's that's also when we talk about
the bridge, the person who's going to fill this gap,
Like that's where we have to step in. Whether it's
the you know, middle aged brother they can speak, you know,
the language of both guys, or the brother that's been
there for ten plus years they can go, Okay, past master,
we really expect, you know, respect what you did in
nineteen eighty seven, and that was an.
Speaker 4 (15:28):
Awesome year for our lodge.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
But here in twenty twenty six, Like the way that
we're doing teaching, it's evolved a little bit, and this
is this is how this guy prefers to get the instruction,
and can we kind of work on this together and
kind of be that middle person for that. But it
kind of also comes down to the next point I
wanted to make, which is communication, and it's so key
to any successful organization. You kind of tease like, there
(15:51):
sometimes there has to be that that healthy divide that
you know, that argument that takes place, that debate, that
that passion fueled thing that so that you can see
where both sides are and then we can come to
a level point and go there. There is such a
different way that the generations like to communicate. And I
think of you know, your father, for example, representing the
(16:14):
older generation respectfully and you and I'm like, I wonder
does just Matt and his dad do they communicate via text, email,
phone call?
Speaker 5 (16:23):
Still?
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Does your dad still write letters? Like how does your
dad like to talk with people?
Speaker 3 (16:28):
Funny thing, I'm actually the guy who likes to write
letters more than anybody because I just have a passion
for you know, stationary and fountain pens and things.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
But that's me being you know, you know, being a
little extra.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
I have the best conversations with my dad, either in
person or over the phone.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
We're not texters, you know. He texts, you know, like quick.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
Thoughts, and I, being of you know, the millennial generation,
I can do both, but I tend to text in
full sentences because it is my one of my preferred
methods of communication. It's it's so funny that you mentioned,
you know, uh, communication, because I think communication goes.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Hand in hand with technology, and you know, there is kind.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Of a there's a little bit of a learning gap
there between you know, the younger Masons and the older
Uh sorry, I should say the younger people in lodge
and older people in lodge.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Again has nothing to do with sonic, you know, experience
and age, but.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
The younger people in lodge typically do prefer a different
modification compared to the older folks, although I do I
will say I have seen more older folks just straight
up pull out their cell phone in the middle of
lodge to punch in you know, the next the next
date or something. And I'm like, look at you, Look
at you using technology over here. Look at it so amazing.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Oh god, Oh, my favorite is when their cell phone
goes off and they're like bomb explaining like oh my god,
let me put this up.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
It's like it's okay, it's okay.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
We know you know, you know who it is by
their by their ring tone, like that's that and okay,
(18:23):
all right.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
I'm gonna preface this by saying, I mean no disrespect,
but here it.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
Comes load the torpedo.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I think that the younger Masons should drive the lodge
period full stop. And I say that again with no
disrespect or with you know, I'm not trying to uh,
you know, forget about someone's experience or or you know,
(18:57):
discourage them speaking up if they have have the experience.
I have a strong feeling for age limits and term
limits right in politics at all levels, right from city
council all the way to the president. I think term
limits and age limits should be a real thing, you know,
And I believe that that is also the case in Mason.
(19:21):
And it's not to take power away, and it's not
to make them feel small or say, hey, your time
is up. You know, we're sun setting you here. But
when you have younger Masons, right, the decisions that they
make are going to affect them and so I have,
you know, in my experience, and it is my feeling
(19:42):
that they will take those decisions and think about them
part and really kind of you know, sit down and say, no,
this is what I have to deal with. This is
what I have to you know, these are the decisions
I'm making, and this is the outcome that I have
to put up with for the next twenty thirty years.
As a person who has I've been in a lodge
for you know, forty forty five almost fifty years.
Speaker 5 (20:05):
Any decision you make isn't really.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
Going to affect you, you know how much longer. And
I like, I know how this sounds. And this is
like the worst part because you have to like come
to terms with the mortality of man and the mortality
of lodge. And that is what you do today may
not affect you at all, because you know you may
be gone, not because you know, not saying you're gonna
(20:29):
drop dead you know, tomorrow, but you know you may
not be able to physically make it to lodge. You
may you know, may not be able to participate for
one reason or another.
Speaker 5 (20:38):
And this sucks.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
But like this is like it's it's the reality of
like owning a dog, you know, you know that you're
gonna have that dog for maybe ten twelve years, and
that's like such a heartbreak because you know it's gonna happen.
The same thing with lodge, like you know, you know,
these brothers have done so much good and they have
all this great experience, but at the end of the day,
I feel like the more power we put in the
(21:00):
younger you know, and I mean young people, right, not
just young Masons, but younger people.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
I think that that is the best.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Way to drive the Lodge forward because if you're doing it,
you know, with their intention and the kind of in
their image. I think it also helps to attract younger
members more than if you have your you know, older
Masons driving the lodge. And again I think they take
you know, the responsibility of those decisions to heart more
than some of the older guys do. And I that's
(21:29):
a very hard conversation to have, and no one likes
to have it. And I mean, it sucks for me
to talk about it because it makes me feel kind
of gross and at the same time, like I again
like I don't want to just you know, say no,
you can't vote, or or no we shouldn't listen to you, Like, That's.
Speaker 5 (21:45):
Not what I'm saying at all.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
You know, obviously, you know, every Mason should have the
same rights, same privileges to vote. But when it comes
down to like, you know, if you're if you're at
a stalemate or you're at a tiebreaker, think about.
Speaker 5 (21:55):
What the younger Masons want. No, they should be steering
the ship. They should be doing it.
Speaker 3 (22:01):
And if you don't have younger members, think about why
you don't have younger members. You know, I can't stress
that enough because I hate to say it, but without
the younger members, without four basins, right, you just don't
have a lodge. And I'm saying this full well knowing
that one day I will be the old guy in
the lodge.
Speaker 5 (22:20):
And I hope that.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
The lodge listens to the younger folks and not me.
I hope they look to the younger folks.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Yeah, I don't think you're gonna get canceled on that one.
It could have gone worse. I was waiting for you
to go, Okay. Further, I'm like, oh, Matt, got really
dark there for a second. But no, I get what
you're saying. I think that all past masters deep down
inside and all older members, senior members, elder members, more
tenured members, whatever the term is that you want to use.
(22:50):
I think that they want to see the next generation,
the next the new guys step up.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
I think so too.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yes, that's kind of why we brought them in. I
kind of alluded to that as like, we don't just
bring in gus he asked, we bring them in to
be Masons, and we bring them in to be a
part of discussions and all those wonderful things, but we
also look at them and go, well, hey, that guy's
got potentially he could be master of this lodge in
like seven years. Like as a father myself and having
this moment with my son much later in life, my son,
(23:16):
Mikey didn't learn to ride a bike until he was
like twelve thirteen years old, just because he had really
no desire to ride a bike.
Speaker 5 (23:25):
It was really weird.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
Teaching a teenage boy how to ride a bike and
to see the thrill that would come on his face
when his sister did it when she was like, you know,
the typical age of kids riding bikes like five or six, right,
you could flash forward now he's almost twenty years old
and still doesn't have a driver's license because he has
no real interest in doing it. It's like, son, you're
(23:48):
gonna need to invest in better shoes or a bike.
Speaker 5 (23:50):
Hey, you should always invest in better shoes.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
And he touches the ground, you should always rest shoes, tires.
Speaker 4 (23:58):
Nothing brought more joy to my face.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
So then now as a two year removed past master
of at least by loge in DC, and to see
the new master come in and start delegating things, and
it was that moment of when you're running behind a
child and you just let go of the bike and
you're like, oh, just stay with it, you got it,
just stay unbalance, and you see them go and you're like, oh,
(24:20):
well they hit a bush, Oh they hit the curb,
or hey, they just kept.
Speaker 4 (24:25):
Going to break that.
Speaker 2 (24:28):
I almost came to a little bit of a tear
seeing that. It was also kind of that scene from
Mary Poppins when you when she realizes the kids don't
need her anymore, Like they can, they can, and now
you can have a different relationship with everything. Right now
you get to be the advisor, the counselor you're not
stepping into like save the day. To your point, like
(24:50):
we as the younger people misrepresent and we think, oh,
they're being and you know what.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
I'm not going to say all of them, aren't some
of them here's my love torpedo speed. That's right. Some
of them want to be crumungeons. Some of them. This
is their outlet for that.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
This is where they feel important still, This is where
they were supposed to leave all that outside world stuff
at the door.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
But this is where they get.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
To be somebody in life now and that and that's
that's a reality of the situation, right, But not all
of them.
Speaker 5 (25:22):
I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
I'm glad you said that because you know, you're talking
like the way you explain it. You know, yes, the
older Masons, they are happy that the younger Masons are
stepping up in a yes, in a perfect world, that
is good and and you seem to speak from an
experience of having those good leaders around, but when you
have the opposite, when you have bad leaders, you know,
(25:43):
they they want the younger people to only run the
lodge the way that they would have run the lodge,
or they try to keep their fingers, you know, kind
of sunk deep into their you know, shoulders, and try
to you know, kind of marrying that kind of puppet
the younger masters, which is oh man, it's it's so
gross to watch.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Well, I look at that as a really bad green
algae ridden pool, and what's stronger than chlorine shock? And
sometimes that's what you got to drop in a large
situation like that. I feel like we've offered a lot
(26:37):
of good golden gems. You're gonna make it this episode
without getting canceled. I'm super happy about that.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
I don't know, Mike, I'm looking at your questions. We
got a couple more views here.
Speaker 5 (26:45):
I can still do it. I can still do it.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
This could be it, all right, So I know, I
said gen X Mason's let's go to millennials as well.
We talk about technology sometimes that is the barrier because
it's always innovating, it's always changing, there's always something new
in the world. But how can we as these these
these middle ground Masons with the newer because now there's
guys even younger than you that are coming into the lodge,
(27:08):
these whipper snappers, how can we provide that that bridge,
that gap filling role for the older brothers so they
don't feel so taxed in having to feel like they
need to somehow relate to people that are their great
grandkids or grandchildren's age.
Speaker 5 (27:25):
Perfect question.
Speaker 3 (27:26):
So, as you were stating earlier, right, you have to
be that bridge between the older and the younger Masons,
or the older and the younger generations of people. So
I'm sure that most lodges, unless you're kind of weird
and you only have you only have twenty two year
olds and only have eighty year olds, which is I
don't know how that happened, but typically typically a lodge
(27:48):
has a you know, a range of people. I think
that the best way that this works, right is again
you have the younger Masons steering, and then you have
the next kind of generation up.
Speaker 5 (28:03):
So if we're talking gen Z now is.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
In the lodge and they're coming of age and they're
coming up through line, right, they're steering the lodge.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
Well, I was just going to ask this really kind
of defining question because I get confused with generation that
I'm in exactly.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
It's weird because sometimes you can physically be of one generation,
but like mentally be of a different one.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
And I feel that way.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
A lot because I am physically of the millennial generation,
but mentally speaking, I feel like I'm or gen X
because of how I was raised and where my parents were,
So you know, you're kind of like mental and you
know the age you are kind of like, you know,
in the household that you grew up, I think can
be a little bit different than your physical like when
(28:43):
you were born age.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
This is the last one that I had in my
torpedo tube. Here as we look ahead, we're hoping always
the best. It's the positive intent, right. We want freemasonry
to stay relevant. We want us to say vibrant, But
there's there's this thing about freemasonry and really maybe this
was the question I should have move to the front
of the podcast. When you talk about being more appealing
to different generations, do younger generations look at something like
(29:10):
freemasonry that is stewed. We use words like ritual, We
use words like principal tenants and values and morals and code, tradition,
and there's other organizations you could join that do not
mention that stuff at all, Like how do we keep
freemasonry relevant with those classic ties to something that's new
(29:33):
that's coming in for flashing and lights and excitement.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Way to bury the lead by the put the relevant
question at the end, I think that in order to
keep Freemasonry vibrant, I really think that you have to
meet people where they are. And again, this goes back to,
you know, keeping the brotherhood fresh and bringing in new
members because you know, freemasonry always has that history, that ritual.
(30:04):
You know, that's never going to go anywhere. You can't
take that away from freemasonry. I don't care if freemasonry
is you know, twenty second clips on TikTok, or if
freemasonry is you know, integrated with technology in some way,
it doesn't.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
Matter what the future of freemasonry is.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
You can't take away the history of it, so it's
always going to be there, okay. And I think that
that if I were to give Masons one like takeaway
from all of this, it would be don't worry about
the history of Freemasonry going anywhere, because you can't remove it.
Speaker 5 (30:39):
You can't erase it. And people who want to seek
it out they will. They'll seek it out. You know,
they'll pore over.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
The books like you and I have done, and they'll
they'll start doing ritual. You know, they'll stand up and
they'll give the speeches and the monologues. You know, they'll
become you know, the Franks, you know, the historians of
the lodge. They will like the artifacts. They will go
to the museums, you know, they'll visit the Livingston Library.
Speaker 5 (31:05):
They will do that.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
We don't have to, we don't have to pitch free
masonry with the history.
Speaker 5 (31:11):
Of it all.
Speaker 3 (31:12):
But we do have to keep masonry relevant to people
that are coming up, because if we don't, then we
never get them in the door in the first place,
and we simply just disappear, you know that we turn
into those old books that are stuffed away in a
corner somewhere. And if you think that that's not the case,
I would tell people to look at other societies, other groups,
(31:37):
other organizations that have come and gone and they were,
you know, popular, and now they're no more. So if
freemasonry wants to keep itself relevant, they have to meet
people where they're at. And that means and this may
I'm going to ruffle some feathers ready, this is where
we're gonna get canceled.
Speaker 5 (31:56):
Free masonry has to become part of the metaverse. No,
I'm just kidding.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
I wouldn't recommend the metaverse, but freemasonry has to embrace technology.
It has to become digital, it has to become something
that this next generation cares about.
Speaker 5 (32:13):
And what do I mean by that?
Speaker 3 (32:14):
So, yeah, when we're talking about communication, like earlier, I
communicate with some brothers and certain lodges over discord. Right,
it's basically a virtual lodge room. You know, it really
could be if you really wanted it to be.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Thanks again to our guest this week, Brother Matthew Brockbank,
will be bridging some extra time with him. If you're
a subscriber extra Oh yeah, dude, it's an episode just
for you this Thursday, about twenty five extra minutes.
Speaker 4 (32:40):
Is that what we said?
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah, some bonus time with Matt and we'll continue our
discussion on millennials how to improve our lodges and see
if we can get him to his goal of being canceled.
We'll never figure that out. I'm right, worship of Brother
Michael Arsa. I always enjoy our time together. We've got
another great episode cued up next week as Monday. Our
guests will be Worshipful Brother David Dehausen, who's going to
(33:02):
share his presentation on the Irish Masons of the seventeen
ninety eight Rebellion. It's a good one if you like
Masonic history. Until then, let peace and harmony prevail.
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