December 16, 2024 • 38 mins
This week we embark on an extraordinary journey to explore the intriguing connections between Sufism, the mystical branch of Islam, and Freemasonry. Bro. Jonathan Kopel returns to guide us through a thought-provoking exploration of two of the world's most enigmatic spiritual paths.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concording, Body, Appendant, Body, Masonic authority,
or Craftsmanonline dot Com. Welcome to the Craftsman Online Podcast,
(00:29):
the only five star rated Masonic podcast endorsed by the
Grand Lodge of New York.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hey, welcome back. It's right worship for Brother Michael Arse
and you've joined us for an episode on Sufiism and Freemasonry.
But before we get to that, just a reminder. We're
two weeks away from one of my favorite year end
traditions here on the Craftsman Online Podcast. That's right, we
count down the top ten most listened to Craftsman Online
podcast episodes for twenty twenty four in two weeks now.
(01:01):
This is all based on you, your downloads, you listening
to these podcast episodes. Apple stacks up all the data
and we start counting them down, and in two weeks
you'll get the first part of that as we get
set to bring in a new season and year together. Well,
this week we're lucky to have a returning guest on
the podcast. This actually marks his third time this season.
(01:23):
Joining me for these conversations, and for this one, we're
going to be exploring the intriguing connections between Sufiism, the
mystical branch of Islam, and Freemasonry. Brother Jonathan Copple, Welcome
back to the Craftsman Online podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Appreciate it. I didn't realize it was three times has been.
It feels like it did it forever, honestly, but three
times here.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Before we get into this, I'm pretty sure I've already
butchered how to pronounce this. And I don't know if
there is a right or a wrong way on how
to say Sufiism. Is it Sufism, Sufiism?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Maybe doing Sufhism just because I think that's the correct
way of saying it. I've heard sufism as well. I
think Sufism is the correct way of sending it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Okay, And it came on my radar this year a
large part, and why you're here is thanks to you.
You asked me, Hey, do you know anybody that's into Sufhism,
And I'm like, I don't even know what that is.
Tell us a little bit about it and how a
guy from Texas discovered Sufism.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I've been always interested in like the mysticism as a
part of being a Christian. But I think it was
actually learning more from the poetry of the Muslim faith
that I think I was introduced to Sufism. Because most
people's introduction is through people like Roumy. You know, sometimes
online you'll see people post roomy quotes everywhere. But it
was actually through that kind of exploration that I was
(02:39):
more introduced to Sufism, which is like a broad terminology
of a separate kind of subgroup within Islam as a religion.
And so oftentimes people will colloquially say, you know, Sufism
is like the mystical side of Islam, but it's actually
a little bit more complicated than that, because Sufis haven't
necessarily been always the most peaceful people. It just depends
(03:02):
on time and being reactive towards the different trends throughout
the history of the Muslim faith from its inception. So
that's why it's like a really hard to kind of
encapsulate together. There's like whole YouTube videos of people that
are like experts in religious studies that actually cover this
very topic. But I would say is that the aspects
of Sufism that really stood up to me, was much
(03:23):
more of its mystical and practical elements of what does
it mean with the spiritual walk with the Creator? Having
a personal relationship was not only encouraged, but when you
read the writings, it's very much a wholesome kind of
faith where there's no embarrassment about being intimate with God
in the walk and the language that they use to
(03:46):
describe that.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Now, do they refer to Deity as God Allah? You mentioned?
You know, it's a kind of a branch off of
the Muslim faith, So I'm just curious how they refer
to the one.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Let's say, I think in general they if you from
a classic a Sufi or Sufism perspective, it's more of
since it's from the branch of Islam, it's usually says Allah,
but they don't use Allah as a all encompassing terms.
There's the ninety nine words or ninety nine descriptions of
God that are taught in the Muslim faith, and so
(04:19):
really it's more of a placeholder kind of like in freemasonry,
we have the idea of like the great architect in
the universe.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
And your research into this or your practice into this,
or your study into this when did you start making
connections between some of the core principles of Sufism or
Sufism and how they would relate to what we learn
as like Masonic lesson.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
That's actually a good question. I don't think it was
maybe one particular point. I think it was actually from
our discussions. Actually was when we talked about in previous
discussions or like even the third degrees, you know, not
talking about anything the ritual, but like when we talk
about the three Ruffians. It was interesting about the idea
of being able to discover truth that isn't something that
(05:04):
is necessarily given within your faith tradition. And what was
interesting was that having that discussion of really made me
think about more the contemplative, reflective aspects of faith and
being okay with trusting those intuitions and not necessarily being
as fearful. And what was interesting was that a lot
of Sufism, one of the main principles is about love
(05:27):
and following your heart. There's a lot of language analogies,
and so when we think about the degrees, there's elements
of the heart, especially in the second degree that are
mentioned right even in the third degrees. You can even
say the first degree but the idea of the heart,
the center of who you are is something that was
being reflective throughout the entire theology or even belief systems
(05:51):
of of Sufhism itself, and so kind of putting it together,
it really reascinated with me about trying to understand who
you are as a person and ultimately your relationship with Deity.
Rather than just necessarily thinking about what it is to
be a good person, it's more asking the question like
who who are you? That fundamental question of who are
(06:12):
you as a person. And I think that was kind
of that e mail of Suphism that I really respond to,
was asking that question but in a way that was
approachable and that it kind of illuminated aspects of the
things that we teach within the crew.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
So I'm just going to assume that our listener knows
as much about Sufism as I do, which is thimbleful.
Thanks to our conversations, I've gotten a little bit more.
But if we were to go to Christianity as kind
of the base of what most folks in North America
would use as it identify somehow to that faith, and
that's really creationalism. In the beginning, there was God was
(06:49):
this this, and then we learned about how God created
us in his image and mankind, and you know, everything
from the Old Testament into the New Testament to revelations,
and then you get into freemasonry and just having enough
I would say, of like a basic Sunday School education,
you'll kind of understand the allegory that comes in freemasonry
(07:10):
of building your symbolic temple. And if you're building a temple,
what lives inside of a temple? It's usually God. So
why do you go to a temple? It's a place
where you can have a conversation or start to make
that connection with Deity, so you can understand some things.
When I was new into masonry, I was inspired, kind
of like you, to start researching other traditions and other faiths,
(07:33):
and one of them was Islam. And I got a
copy of the Quran in English and it was interesting
because within the first couple chapters, for lack of a
better term, of the Quran, they talk, they reaffirm, I
would say, a lot of the things that we learn
in the modern you know, King James Bible, They talk
about Jesus, they talk about some of the creationalism story
(07:56):
that it seems like there's parallels to that, of course
with some differences. How does this work for you? Is
someone who's exploring all of this, I'm just curious, like
the picture that you're painting, or maybe if it was
like a puzzle, you have the borders of the puzzle
in your mind of like that foundation that you had
from Sunday School, and now you're starting to fill in
(08:18):
all those little tiny squares. Tell us how this is
helping to you know, frame that picture for you now.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I think it's actually an excellent question because of the
fact that my introduction to Sufism was actually, i would say,
more in tune with the works of Thomas Murden and
even the philosopher John O'Donohue. Their works are actually interesting
in with respect that they come from a Christian tradition,
but a lot of their ideas and influences can be,
(08:46):
you know, related to things like Buddhism or Sufism, with
the idea of the mysticism that they describe, and so
from that it was interesting because exploring their works and
in Sufism, it was actually less about the dogma of
a particular tradition and asking more about the practice of it.
In other words, when we talk about the heart, it's
(09:07):
more about what is it about your faith that's actually
transforming you as a person, what is it that really
matters with regards to your relationship with Deed? And for me,
I thought that was actually the most important thing, because
I think we get so hung up with our individual
tenants of whatever tradition or whatever kind of philosophical system
(09:28):
we adhere to. I think we overlook the bigger picture.
I see a lot more commonalities in the human condition
and the things that we see in a lot of
traditions that people brown themselves with. But from a larger perspective,
we can see about how these practices inform our exposure
to some of the struggles of being human and being
(09:49):
susceptible to a lot of the insertinties in ourselves. And
even when approaching concepts like we discussed about death with Sufism,
it more of directly addresses that practic This, or the
way in which you actually approach your relationship with God,
I thought was very interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, one of the things that you shared with me
is that Sophie's believed that true knowledge of God comes
through direct experience and not through intellectual study or religious dogmas.
They really kind of have that see, observe, you know,
be present kind of mentality. Are there any secret teachings
(10:25):
or hidden truths that exist in this religion that would
really only be revealed to someone who has maybe a
spiritual teacher or a mentor, or is this something that
anyone could kind of start practicing and reading on their own.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
I think the answer is it can be open to anyone.
I don't think there's really like secret teachings, because again,
it's the idea of discovering for yourself. You know. One
person I meant actually described it as, you know, if
you want to understand love, I want you to get
into a relationship and you know, break up and actually
feel what that feels like, rather than have someone tell
you what that feels like. I thought that was an
(11:01):
interesting analogy because that's what it boils down to. It's
saying you actually have to live life. You can't live
your faith in this perfect world that you describe within
the tradition it's here, you have to live it in
the real world world. There are imperfections. Sometimes you won't
have all the answers. You can't go to look and
get everything. So the mystery is actually life. It says,
(11:23):
the biggest mystery is how do you live in life
with all these uncertainties, even with your own tradition, how
do you actually approach because I think that's the biggest mystery.
I think we try and make it very esoteric, like, oh,
there's a secret mystery. And I think that resonates with
why I see in medicine, because if you live life,
if you really interact with people and you see what
(11:44):
people deal with yourself and the situations you get involved with,
there's so much mystery and uncertainty and life that it
will teach you those things, sometimes whether you want it
or not, or sometimes whether you're expecting it or not.
And so I think that's why I really like is
that kind of flips what you said on head It says, well,
you don't need to look for secrets. You just have
to live and trust and continue being curious and not
(12:08):
be afraid of being hurt and not being afraid of
trying thing. And I think those elements really speak to
what we talk about in the lodge about, you know,
the way in which we carry ourselves and the manner
by which we interact with each other and even if
we do stumble, we're all on the same journey of learning.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
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(13:43):
with Brother Jonathan Papel, who's back for his third time
on the Craftsman Online podcast, and you open up the
conversation by saying that part of your journey or seek
the I guess the truth seeking that you were doing
that brought you to Sufiism was the store with the
Three Ruffians, which I find interesting because I also reached
(14:05):
out to other traditions and other practices because of certain
things I came across in my Masonic career, like, for example,
as a fellow craft when I was going through there's
a part of that obligation where it talks about how
he would not defraud another person, how he would come
to the aid of others and be there. And I
really struggled with that because I was like, well, does
that mean like every time I see a homeless person
(14:27):
that's asking for money or every cause, like could you
imagine every time a telemarketer calls your phone? Like this
isn't like Jim Carrey's yes man here. There's this you know,
Masonic gray area. And that's what caused me to go
study Buddhism and how Buddha talks about suffering and how
that's a part of our life and understanding that and
(14:47):
working to like minimize suffering across the world and saying
a prayer for it every morning, but just understanding that
suffering is a true element of everyday life. So back
to this three Ruffians part, I'm interested, did you find
an angle to the answer you were seeking by connecting
(15:09):
with Sufiism, And if so, what was that thought that
connected that you didn't already have inside of you.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
That's actually a good question. I would say that the
main thing that stood to me when exploring Sufism as
a whole, that maybe I hadn't been able to articulate.
I think that maybe that's a better way of putting
it is learning to trust and forgive yourself, but also
being open to the fact that despite your imperfections, that
you can still learn and you can still have truth
(15:39):
with your creator that are unique to you because it's
a part of what you needed on your own journey.
And I think that was actually what I thought was helpful,
because in the writings, they have their own way of
describing you know, different aspects of living and you know
union and relationship with God. But I think it's the
overall tone of the writings. It's not there's a separation
(16:02):
between creator and created, saying there's a union and unfolding
of life between both the created world and the divine world,
and they're not to be separate, but they're both to
be related to each other. And I think having that
is very helpful when if you've experienced struggle or other
things in life that and negative. Having that level of
(16:22):
honesty but intimacy can be very helpful in being able
to be open and honest with yourself and also learning
what a good relationship with God looks like. I think
sometimes that's something that we don't necessarily see our traditions
because it's very formalized. Right if you're a Catholic, this
is the way that you have to approach talking to God.
(16:44):
But so much of what we do as talking and
so much action that learning to just be receptive is
very counterintuitive for like a Western audience, because we're so
much told that we need to do things first and
then God will respond. At Eastern traditions or mystical traditions,
it's more about you just have to chill out. You
(17:05):
just have to listen, and that's really hard when you're
almost geared to have to be reactive. To do the opposite,
it's very difficult. The why I've learned the more I've
done this is that it becomes more comforting when you
don't have to be always striving to get or striving
to complete things. It's actually very reassuring to just say
(17:26):
I can just sit here and reflect and maybe not
even think anything and still hear the voice of God
or feel those things that resonate with me. And I
think that's something that I find is a nice kind
of contrast to kind of like the typical things that
we look at with more Western theologies and tradition.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So I want to take our listener behind the curtain
here a little bit, because Jonathan and I usually, I
think email is kind of your preferred way of communicating,
and I'm still a text person. Yeah, so I'll get
these pretty beefy emails from Jonathan a couple of paragraphs
at least, and it usually leads with a question. And
a while ago, the question had to do with the
(18:06):
Three Ruffians, and when I thought about this, and then
you said, hey, I've been doing a little research into this,
this and that I've been reading up on this, and
you give me a lot of this perspective, and then
I take a step back and I'm like, Okay, well
this is a new area of learning for me, and
this is what I love about freemasonry, especially with the
brothers like you. When it comes to the Three Ruffians,
you know, we're told obviously in our ritual and we're
(18:27):
not going to give any secrets away about who these
people are and kind of in the allegory what they're
supposed to represent. Right, And as I've said many times before,
I feel so unfortunate for brothers that observe that part
of the degree walk out of the temple or the
lodge room and think that's where the learning ends, is
right there at that moment where your kind of proof,
(18:50):
where it actually goes beyond that You've been a master
mason for some time and now you're finally getting to
this part of because it's now relevant in your life.
So give me a little overview of that, like where
were you Why were you looking into the meaning of
the Three Ruffians? And what is it that you got
(19:10):
out of Sufiism that everything else in your background really
couldn't present an answer to.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So I would actually say it was interesting because I
was talking with a few brothers from New York on
the story topic. Because I'm actually doing the third Ruffian
of the third degree now and before this, the term
I've been used with regards to, you know, trying to
seek information that you may not be ready for or
fully understand. Me. It was kind of contra you know
Klin too that because as a doctor, you're like, you're
(19:39):
supposed to try to find answers, like this person either
knows something or somebody knows something that can help you
answer a question about management or what you don't know.
But to say, like, hey, you can't just ask this
to be given was colorintuitive. So it took me a
while to kind of wrap my mind around. But when
I was talking about the third Ruffian with some of
(19:59):
the the other masons I knew from New York, one
of them actually brought in or discussed the ritual from
the way it's done New York that the third Ruffian gives.
Oddly enough, DC doesn't do that. So there's a whole
part in there that kind of elucidates more out of
the motive and meaning behind what this particular character is
supposed to represent. At the end of it, the major
(20:22):
theme is about your integrity as a person. That's really emphasized.
And once he said that, I said, oh, that's very
interesting because it goes back to why the idea of
character is so emphasized in free masonry, because when you
think about it's like why do we have all this
stuff on morals, Like we have to be talking all
these things, like some of them seem very like obvious,
(20:42):
like yeah, like you should do that to be What's
interesting is that when we were talking about the third Ruffian,
I started realizing why it was so emphasized, because at
the end of the day, the one thing that is
intangible that people rely on is your integrity as a person.
Word who you are as a person speaks louder than
(21:04):
anything else that you do. And it's funny because you
don't think about that way, but then you realize it's like, yeah,
like people trust me in my job, you know, like
people learn to trust you very quickly. But it's something
you earn, and the way you earn that is by
what you actually do and how you carry yourself. The
integrity by which your name is backed by what you
(21:25):
do as a person. So when we use all these analogies,
it really kind of game back to the idea in
Sufism about the heart, who you are as a person,
how you live your life, how does that relate to
the physical and non physical aspects that we even talk
about in the craft. So it started putting it together
a lot of things without mean necessarily having to be
(21:47):
an expert at the ritual at every degree of freemasonry.
The one character by just studying that aspect opened up
a lot more insight, and I think that was the
lesson I learned is that to understand freemasonry, you don't
have to necessarily do every single thing to understand the
full picture. Dune times, it's just doing the small areas
that you're part of the lodge or that you're learning,
(22:09):
and really just taking time to really learn it and
sometimes being patient with the fact that it will take
time for it to unfold. But eventually the answer will come,
and it's usually when you're not specting.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I'm just going to pause and give that some space
so that it really resonates. I feel like the worst
thing you can tell a newly raised brother or a
newly obligated or even you know, a newly raised brother
when they ask a question, oh, hey, well you should
go read this book. I think that's the worst thing
that we can tell as master Masons to new brothers.
(22:42):
Why because that's not what they're looking for it. You
can give them some of it and say you can
learn more by reading this book. Here's a resource for you.
But just giving them go read this book that just
turns people off. Don't do that. And then I like
the other point that you say is that you're not
speaking of books. You don't have to be the best
(23:02):
ritualist to really get the most out of Freemason. Learn
the parts that you can get involved where you can,
because I look at it as like this is a
lifetime obligation that you've taken. You've got a whole life
to learn everything about that book. And there's three degrees.
You're never going to learn every little intricate part of it,
(23:23):
because there's always going to be some new area of
thought or somewhere new to explore, or somebody's new opinion.
And I like to look at somebody as you as
like the perfect example because looking back, if you could
go back to you, brother Jonathan Capel, just being raised
to that sublime degree of master Mason, you still got
that new shiny Mason look about you. How seasoned do
(23:44):
you feel you are now versus that time in the past.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
I would say, I don't think season is the right word.
I think it's more of a realization of kind of
like a PhD, how much you didn't know, but it
wasn't knowing. It was I had an experience been exposed to,
you know, being from you know, being raised in Lubbock,
and then coming to DC, that whole dynamic, you know,
coming here was very enlightening. And I think that was
(24:12):
part of that realization too, is that when you don't travel,
that's the idea, when you don't travel and you aren't
exposing yourself, what you see is what you're used to.
But if someone doesn't pull you out and put you
into different areas, then you'll never know what you don't know,
and you'll never know what you're missing. In fact, I
think that's one of the great tragedies, is that you'll
(24:33):
have masons that will be really get the ritual in
one area and they really pride themselves. But then what's
funny is again you go to New York, you go
somewhere else and it's completely different, and then you take
a step back. It's like, well, is the point to
really master the rituals so much that you can memorize it,
or is it more important that you understand and appreciate
(24:53):
the lessons and unders in the depth of what's being said,
so that it actually impacts who you are. Because the
ultimate thing that I've learned from a lot Masons in
the East Coast especially, is that they care more about
who you are and how you apply what's being taught
than if you can memorize a few lots, because I
think they've seem to make people that they can memorize
(25:14):
the work, but you can tell it hasn't really dunk
into their soul. You know. That's what people want to
see is how much you've changed and grown as they've
seen you, rather than just knowing information.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Let's get back to Sufiism. I'm hoping that our listener,
whether they are a Mason at any level or just
have a general interest in freemasonry, by listening to this podcast,
are somewhat familiar with this conversation that we're having where
we talk about the basis of freemasonry. Our foundation is
the building of King Solomon's temple, which is kind of
the allegory of building your own spiritual temple, which is
(26:05):
you you are that temple from the floor up, and
we've made that point several times, and I just hope
that it connects. And one of the things that you
had shared with me before this episode is that Sufi's
emphasized the importance of spiritual purification, good deeds, and seeking
knowledge of God as paths to salvation. And I'm just
(26:27):
curious if the building of King Solomon's temple, that symbolic
temple that we build in freemasonry are quote unquote unique allegory.
Does the Sufi tradition make any connections or relate to
that particular aspect of freemasonry.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
That's actually a nominally a good question. I think it
kind of goes back to like the heart of what
kind of stood out to me, because I think the
first thing that I would say with regards to like
the Sufism is that when it comes to things like
spiritual purification, it's really about clearing your mind so you
can be recept of the thing. So I think, in
other words, is that it's less about being perfect, because like,
(27:04):
if you read a loive of the Sufi tradition, you'll
read things from Rumy and a few other poets where
they're actually very comical. They actually are very good at
making fun of each other in a way, and they
use that's a way of kind of showing, you know,
the imperfections in our spiritual teachers and saying, we're just
human as much as you are, and probably more lost
(27:25):
than you realize, and we're much more aware of that imperfection.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I just thinking, like, is this like the ancient like
Drake and Kendrick lamar Rap battles that were going on.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
It was funny because like there was stories that would
be taught about, you know, students would ask one master
about another master, and like a lot of what their
like wisdom would come from is by self denigration or
denigrating the other person. And that was not done to humiliate,
but just the show that you're not meant to hold
(27:56):
your mentor up to this pestal of perfection. They're there
to help illuminate what's within you. So in other words,
the self purification is more about teaching you to get
rid of all your self precat you know, self notions
of perfection, biases, things that get in the way of
receiving that which is already out there. And what's out
(28:17):
there is usually found in the average day people that
we work with That's usually where I found a lot
of the things I've learned is just from a happy sance,
conversation with one person that I've been with, or you know,
just going about my day to day routine, average thing.
So I think that's the first part. The other part
that really I thought was emphasized was always asking questions
(28:40):
and seeking knowledge through things that require you to be
more receptive than active. So whether it's meditation, whether it's walking,
even just being open to asking questions and even thinking
I've never really asked this before, like what does this
really mean? I think that's the elements that I see
in Sufism that resonate with Freemasonry, because in the craft
(29:03):
we are taught to always seek, ask and not you know,
that's part of the first degree. The more that I've
gone through the degrees, I realized that's the basis by
what you grow. I think the problem is is that
people get so much into the routine that come into
the lot that they forget to keep asking questions because
they get used to the business of the lot or
(29:23):
doing things. But then the one takes a step back
and say, you know, why do we do it this way?
You know, like this is really bizarre, Like, of all
the things we could do, why do we open the
lots way? Why do we do this? When you lose
that sense of curiosity, I think then you get into
the trouble of the monotony. There's nothing new, there's nothing.
You're actually closing your mind again because you've lost that
(29:46):
innocence and that sense of curiosity that brought you in
the freemasonry to begin with. So to kind of summarize,
I would say that the spiritual purification is really just
clearing your mind so that you can be open to
asking those questions and seeking the knowledge that you need
at the particular time in life, in the stage that
you're at.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I'm thinking, the only other person and I've been doing
this for a while, and I'm saying masonry for a
while that I've ever heard mention it. It was probably
our brother and author Angel Malar. I think he has
mentioned sufism is on an episode or in a conversation
with me before, but other than that, no one. And
(30:26):
when I find so interesting about this, you used the
keywords like the mentorship and you know, seeking, and it
makes me think of like young people like yourself and
why they would be drawn to Sufiism or sufism, why
would this be meaningful to them?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Doufism emphasizes that level of intimacy and honesty that people
are looking for. In other words, people are not asking
for just the run of the mill knowledge that they've
heard from every single person. It's really saying life is difficult.
You're not going to get good answers, not always going
to have the answers given to your You know up
(31:02):
front it's going to be a struggle at times. But
these are the practices and things that help. And sometimes
mentorship is a good way of having a mirror, almost
like therapy, to talk and say this is what I'm
dealing with, and having someone who's been on that journey
and still learning really helps engage two people together and
you gain that knowledge and understanding from someone You can
(31:26):
fully reveal your most vulnerable self too, and that, I
think is what people are really looking for, especially in
a day where so many things are changing, and the
fact that you know, compared to like fifty years ago
in medicine, if you talk to someone about like the
immune system, they would only have to know like that much.
You know everything about the immune system is like millions
(31:46):
upon millions of pages. Now it's so much that would
last you more than like a few lifetimes to really
even encapsulate, and most of that's going to be wrong.
So then the question is, like, where do I find
myself in the midst of all this change, and how
do I just properly so that I I don't lose
sight of who I am while being open to what
I need to become to handle these challenges them m.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's interesting you say that because I, as somebody who's
a gen exer, like I look at the younger generations
and sometimes I get a little frustrated because I feel
like it's easier for them life. But then I forget that,
you know, the challenges just present themselves differently, and in
a world now, as you kind of pointed out, where
information is just a couple of clicks and an inter
(32:30):
button away thanks to the Internet and you know now
AI and machine learning. But to the point where you're saying, well,
the authentic, the realness, that that real connection, that feeling
that you know, that organic natural that love, as you
had mentioned, you can't replicate that with technology right now, Like, yeah,
(32:53):
you could make great art and wonderful music, and but
that real feeling that comes when there's that spiritual, soulful connection.
And it's interesting you when you think about that, and
like a religious or in like a spiritual context, is
that there are so many people who are literally just
kind of walking around right now, confused, dazed, unsure of themselves,
(33:18):
and to stumble across something like this in any way
could be that little piece of light that they need
to get out of that hole or tunnel that they
keep wandering down.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I mean, it kind of goes back to things that
are telling the first degree about the idea of light
and dark. And the thing I really like about that
kind of dichotomy is it reminded me that it's not
as much what matters is about good or bad or
the light in dark in life is the fact that
you learn from them. And that's been like one of
the most important lessons I've learned, especially as a doctor,
(33:51):
because I see incredibly good things, amazing things that surprise me,
and then you'll see some really awful things, for instance,
like seeing people in their thirties get diagnosed with a
devastating disease and they have all the responsibilities and you're
in that same age group, and you can empathize with
them because you know what it's like to be like, Wow,
I'm your same age, and yet our paths are two
(34:13):
completely different journeys and you just got the rough end
of the stick and there's no rhyme or reason to it.
It's not that this person was worse than me. Nothing,
It just happened. And I think the more that you
see all those things happen with people, it gives you
this sense of humility to be appreciative for what you
(34:35):
have and being able to participate where they're at, but
then also realizing that there's a lot that you take
for granted, that the important thing to do is to
make sure you're not wasting the time that's given because
at the end of the day, no one knows the
time that they'll end. And the last thing you want
to do is then not live authentically. And I think
(34:56):
for Sufism, that's the thing I asked you, is you
have to live authentically because at the end of the day,
the only relationship that you can carry forward is the
one that you can't touch, the one they necessarily point
to you and say God's right there. You can't do that,
So it asks you to really say, if everything was
stripped away from you, what would actually be left? And
(35:17):
that's a hard question for people to answer. Where everything
that people's identity is based on is all external, it's
not really internal. People identify by their job, being married,
family relationships, everything else external. But then internal it's like, well,
how do you define yourself? Unfortunately no one else can
do that. You have to determine that with God. And
(35:39):
that's the hard part because you can't get any external
reward for that. No one's going to get how much
you've grown. And I think that's the heart.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
So, Brother Jonathan, I think we've done a fabulous job
of kind of laying out what this is all about.
And I'm sure there's our listeners saying okay, I'm interested.
You got me, Like, where would you recommend for someone?
And I'm sure I pronounced sufism wrong every single time.
I don't even have to look in the comments for
this episode. I apologize in advance. I realize I've pronounced
it in correctly. But instead of telling somebody, we'll go
(36:10):
read this book. Maybe sometimes that is the option here.
What's a great way for someone to get into the
baby steps of Sufism.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
So I have a few good resources I think instead
reading a book, because that is, like he said, the
easiest thing. There's actually a good YouTube channel called Religion
for Breakfast, and he actually has a philosophy. I think
he's actually a professor in the philosophy religion or he's
a student in it, and he has videos on different
(36:40):
religious sex and he does one just on Sufism. What's
nice is that he does it on the belief system
and the history, so he goes into like the misconceptions
that He's like, you know, people call Sufism the mysticism
of Islam. He's like, well, wait a minute, Suphism is
not always a non violent faith. He's like, here's the
history of how it's had its own interesting history. But
(37:01):
I think there's a lot good YouTube videos that can
really give you a sense of the different cultural dimensions
and the diversity in the Sufi tradition. To start off with,
the other thing that's really helpful is if you're going
to read anything, just read the poetry of Roomy, read
the poetry at Fees, all these different other Sufi poets,
because they didn't just write a textbook saying here is
(37:23):
my spiritual philosophy of life. In fact, most of what
they wrote was actually in poetry, so in the good
thing is that it's more open to interpretation. On the
other hand, it's much more approachable because you don't need
to read the entire Roomy poetry set to understand what
he's talking and so I think you can pick and
choose what resonates with you. And I think that's kind
(37:45):
of the beauty, is that you don't have to start
from point A and point z to understand everything. You
can pick and choose what really resonates and then reflect them.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Third time, final time this year, but not as final
time ever because we're going to reload and get it
back in here next year. We're going to say goodbye
for now, though, and many thanks thanks for coming on
this week, Jonathan anytime. Thanks again to my guests this week,
brother Jonathan Copple, for giving us a deeper look on
Sufiism and freemasonry. Hey, if you've enjoyed this episode, make
(38:19):
sure you follow The Craftsman Online podcast on Spotify or
subscribe on Apple Podcasts for new episodes every Monday morning,
And just a reminder, in two weeks we stack them
up the ten biggest episodes. Is our countdown kicks off
of the Craftsman online podcast for the year twenty twenty four.
I look forward to seeing you then until next time,
(38:42):
it's right worship of Brother Michael Arse saying, let peace
and harmony prevail
The Commons. Opinions and views shared during this program are
of those individual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, Concording, Body, Appendant, Body, Masonic authority,
or Craftsmanonline dot Com. Welcome to the Craftsman Online Podcast,
(00:29):
the only five star rated Masonic podcast endorsed by the
Grand Lodge of New York.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Hey, welcome back. It's right worship for Brother Michael Arse
and you've joined us for an episode on Sufiism and Freemasonry.
But before we get to that, just a reminder. We're
two weeks away from one of my favorite year end
traditions here on the Craftsman Online Podcast. That's right, we
count down the top ten most listened to Craftsman Online
podcast episodes for twenty twenty four in two weeks now.
(01:01):
This is all based on you, your downloads, you listening
to these podcast episodes. Apple stacks up all the data
and we start counting them down, and in two weeks
you'll get the first part of that as we get
set to bring in a new season and year together. Well,
this week we're lucky to have a returning guest on
the podcast. This actually marks his third time this season.
(01:23):
Joining me for these conversations, and for this one, we're
going to be exploring the intriguing connections between Sufiism, the
mystical branch of Islam, and Freemasonry. Brother Jonathan Copple, Welcome
back to the Craftsman Online podcast.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Appreciate it. I didn't realize it was three times has been.
It feels like it did it forever, honestly, but three
times here.
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Before we get into this, I'm pretty sure I've already
butchered how to pronounce this. And I don't know if
there is a right or a wrong way on how
to say Sufiism. Is it Sufism, Sufiism?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Maybe doing Sufhism just because I think that's the correct
way of saying it. I've heard sufism as well. I
think Sufism is the correct way of sending it.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Okay, And it came on my radar this year a
large part, and why you're here is thanks to you.
You asked me, Hey, do you know anybody that's into Sufhism,
And I'm like, I don't even know what that is.
Tell us a little bit about it and how a
guy from Texas discovered Sufism.
Speaker 3 (02:18):
I've been always interested in like the mysticism as a
part of being a Christian. But I think it was
actually learning more from the poetry of the Muslim faith
that I think I was introduced to Sufism. Because most
people's introduction is through people like Roumy. You know, sometimes
online you'll see people post roomy quotes everywhere. But it
was actually through that kind of exploration that I was
(02:39):
more introduced to Sufism, which is like a broad terminology
of a separate kind of subgroup within Islam as a religion.
And so oftentimes people will colloquially say, you know, Sufism
is like the mystical side of Islam, but it's actually
a little bit more complicated than that, because Sufis haven't
necessarily been always the most peaceful people. It just depends
(03:02):
on time and being reactive towards the different trends throughout
the history of the Muslim faith from its inception. So
that's why it's like a really hard to kind of
encapsulate together. There's like whole YouTube videos of people that
are like experts in religious studies that actually cover this
very topic. But I would say is that the aspects
of Sufism that really stood up to me, was much
(03:23):
more of its mystical and practical elements of what does
it mean with the spiritual walk with the Creator? Having
a personal relationship was not only encouraged, but when you
read the writings, it's very much a wholesome kind of
faith where there's no embarrassment about being intimate with God
in the walk and the language that they use to
(03:46):
describe that.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Now, do they refer to Deity as God Allah? You mentioned?
You know, it's a kind of a branch off of
the Muslim faith, So I'm just curious how they refer
to the one.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Let's say, I think in general they if you from
a classic a Sufi or Sufism perspective, it's more of
since it's from the branch of Islam, it's usually says Allah,
but they don't use Allah as a all encompassing terms.
There's the ninety nine words or ninety nine descriptions of
God that are taught in the Muslim faith, and so
(04:19):
really it's more of a placeholder kind of like in freemasonry,
we have the idea of like the great architect in
the universe.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
And your research into this or your practice into this,
or your study into this when did you start making
connections between some of the core principles of Sufism or
Sufism and how they would relate to what we learn
as like Masonic lesson.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
That's actually a good question. I don't think it was
maybe one particular point. I think it was actually from
our discussions. Actually was when we talked about in previous
discussions or like even the third degrees, you know, not
talking about anything the ritual, but like when we talk
about the three Ruffians. It was interesting about the idea
of being able to discover truth that isn't something that
(05:04):
is necessarily given within your faith tradition. And what was
interesting was that having that discussion of really made me
think about more the contemplative, reflective aspects of faith and
being okay with trusting those intuitions and not necessarily being
as fearful. And what was interesting was that a lot
of Sufism, one of the main principles is about love
(05:27):
and following your heart. There's a lot of language analogies,
and so when we think about the degrees, there's elements
of the heart, especially in the second degree that are
mentioned right even in the third degrees. You can even
say the first degree but the idea of the heart,
the center of who you are is something that was
being reflective throughout the entire theology or even belief systems
(05:51):
of of Sufhism itself, and so kind of putting it together,
it really reascinated with me about trying to understand who
you are as a person and ultimately your relationship with Deity.
Rather than just necessarily thinking about what it is to
be a good person, it's more asking the question like
who who are you? That fundamental question of who are
(06:12):
you as a person. And I think that was kind
of that e mail of Suphism that I really respond to,
was asking that question but in a way that was
approachable and that it kind of illuminated aspects of the
things that we teach within the crew.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
So I'm just going to assume that our listener knows
as much about Sufism as I do, which is thimbleful.
Thanks to our conversations, I've gotten a little bit more.
But if we were to go to Christianity as kind
of the base of what most folks in North America
would use as it identify somehow to that faith, and
that's really creationalism. In the beginning, there was God was
(06:49):
this this, and then we learned about how God created
us in his image and mankind, and you know, everything
from the Old Testament into the New Testament to revelations,
and then you get into freemasonry and just having enough
I would say, of like a basic Sunday School education,
you'll kind of understand the allegory that comes in freemasonry
(07:10):
of building your symbolic temple. And if you're building a temple,
what lives inside of a temple? It's usually God. So
why do you go to a temple? It's a place
where you can have a conversation or start to make
that connection with Deity, so you can understand some things.
When I was new into masonry, I was inspired, kind
of like you, to start researching other traditions and other faiths,
(07:33):
and one of them was Islam. And I got a
copy of the Quran in English and it was interesting
because within the first couple chapters, for lack of a
better term, of the Quran, they talk, they reaffirm, I
would say, a lot of the things that we learn
in the modern you know, King James Bible, They talk
about Jesus, they talk about some of the creationalism story
(07:56):
that it seems like there's parallels to that, of course
with some differences. How does this work for you? Is
someone who's exploring all of this, I'm just curious, like
the picture that you're painting, or maybe if it was
like a puzzle, you have the borders of the puzzle
in your mind of like that foundation that you had
from Sunday School, and now you're starting to fill in
(08:18):
all those little tiny squares. Tell us how this is
helping to you know, frame that picture for you now.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
I think it's actually an excellent question because of the
fact that my introduction to Sufism was actually, i would say,
more in tune with the works of Thomas Murden and
even the philosopher John O'Donohue. Their works are actually interesting
in with respect that they come from a Christian tradition,
but a lot of their ideas and influences can be,
(08:46):
you know, related to things like Buddhism or Sufism, with
the idea of the mysticism that they describe, and so
from that it was interesting because exploring their works and
in Sufism, it was actually less about the dogma of
a particular tradition and asking more about the practice of it.
In other words, when we talk about the heart, it's
(09:07):
more about what is it about your faith that's actually
transforming you as a person, what is it that really
matters with regards to your relationship with Deed? And for me,
I thought that was actually the most important thing, because
I think we get so hung up with our individual
tenants of whatever tradition or whatever kind of philosophical system
(09:28):
we adhere to. I think we overlook the bigger picture.
I see a lot more commonalities in the human condition
and the things that we see in a lot of
traditions that people brown themselves with. But from a larger perspective,
we can see about how these practices inform our exposure
to some of the struggles of being human and being
(09:49):
susceptible to a lot of the insertinties in ourselves. And
even when approaching concepts like we discussed about death with Sufism,
it more of directly addresses that practic This, or the
way in which you actually approach your relationship with God,
I thought was very interesting.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
Yeah, one of the things that you shared with me
is that Sophie's believed that true knowledge of God comes
through direct experience and not through intellectual study or religious dogmas.
They really kind of have that see, observe, you know,
be present kind of mentality. Are there any secret teachings
(10:25):
or hidden truths that exist in this religion that would
really only be revealed to someone who has maybe a
spiritual teacher or a mentor, or is this something that
anyone could kind of start practicing and reading on their own.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
I think the answer is it can be open to anyone.
I don't think there's really like secret teachings, because again,
it's the idea of discovering for yourself. You know. One
person I meant actually described it as, you know, if
you want to understand love, I want you to get
into a relationship and you know, break up and actually
feel what that feels like, rather than have someone tell
you what that feels like. I thought that was an
(11:01):
interesting analogy because that's what it boils down to. It's
saying you actually have to live life. You can't live
your faith in this perfect world that you describe within
the tradition it's here, you have to live it in
the real world world. There are imperfections. Sometimes you won't
have all the answers. You can't go to look and
get everything. So the mystery is actually life. It says,
(11:23):
the biggest mystery is how do you live in life
with all these uncertainties, even with your own tradition, how
do you actually approach because I think that's the biggest mystery.
I think we try and make it very esoteric, like, oh,
there's a secret mystery. And I think that resonates with
why I see in medicine, because if you live life,
if you really interact with people and you see what
(11:44):
people deal with yourself and the situations you get involved with,
there's so much mystery and uncertainty and life that it
will teach you those things, sometimes whether you want it
or not, or sometimes whether you're expecting it or not.
And so I think that's why I really like is
that kind of flips what you said on head It says, well,
you don't need to look for secrets. You just have
to live and trust and continue being curious and not
(12:08):
be afraid of being hurt and not being afraid of
trying thing. And I think those elements really speak to
what we talk about in the lodge about, you know,
the way in which we carry ourselves and the manner
by which we interact with each other and even if
we do stumble, we're all on the same journey of learning.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
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(13:43):
with Brother Jonathan Papel, who's back for his third time
on the Craftsman Online podcast, and you open up the
conversation by saying that part of your journey or seek
the I guess the truth seeking that you were doing
that brought you to Sufiism was the store with the
Three Ruffians, which I find interesting because I also reached
(14:05):
out to other traditions and other practices because of certain
things I came across in my Masonic career, like, for example,
as a fellow craft when I was going through there's
a part of that obligation where it talks about how
he would not defraud another person, how he would come
to the aid of others and be there. And I
really struggled with that because I was like, well, does
that mean like every time I see a homeless person
(14:27):
that's asking for money or every cause, like could you
imagine every time a telemarketer calls your phone? Like this
isn't like Jim Carrey's yes man here. There's this you know,
Masonic gray area. And that's what caused me to go
study Buddhism and how Buddha talks about suffering and how
that's a part of our life and understanding that and
(14:47):
working to like minimize suffering across the world and saying
a prayer for it every morning, but just understanding that
suffering is a true element of everyday life. So back
to this three Ruffians part, I'm interested, did you find
an angle to the answer you were seeking by connecting
(15:09):
with Sufiism, And if so, what was that thought that
connected that you didn't already have inside of you.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
That's actually a good question. I would say that the
main thing that stood to me when exploring Sufism as
a whole, that maybe I hadn't been able to articulate.
I think that maybe that's a better way of putting
it is learning to trust and forgive yourself, but also
being open to the fact that despite your imperfections, that
you can still learn and you can still have truth
(15:39):
with your creator that are unique to you because it's
a part of what you needed on your own journey.
And I think that was actually what I thought was helpful,
because in the writings, they have their own way of
describing you know, different aspects of living and you know
union and relationship with God. But I think it's the
overall tone of the writings. It's not there's a separation
(16:02):
between creator and created, saying there's a union and unfolding
of life between both the created world and the divine world,
and they're not to be separate, but they're both to
be related to each other. And I think having that
is very helpful when if you've experienced struggle or other
things in life that and negative. Having that level of
(16:22):
honesty but intimacy can be very helpful in being able
to be open and honest with yourself and also learning
what a good relationship with God looks like. I think
sometimes that's something that we don't necessarily see our traditions
because it's very formalized. Right if you're a Catholic, this
is the way that you have to approach talking to God.
(16:44):
But so much of what we do as talking and
so much action that learning to just be receptive is
very counterintuitive for like a Western audience, because we're so
much told that we need to do things first and
then God will respond. At Eastern traditions or mystical traditions,
it's more about you just have to chill out. You
(17:05):
just have to listen, and that's really hard when you're
almost geared to have to be reactive. To do the opposite,
it's very difficult. The why I've learned the more I've
done this is that it becomes more comforting when you
don't have to be always striving to get or striving
to complete things. It's actually very reassuring to just say
(17:26):
I can just sit here and reflect and maybe not
even think anything and still hear the voice of God
or feel those things that resonate with me. And I
think that's something that I find is a nice kind
of contrast to kind of like the typical things that
we look at with more Western theologies and tradition.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
So I want to take our listener behind the curtain
here a little bit, because Jonathan and I usually, I
think email is kind of your preferred way of communicating,
and I'm still a text person. Yeah, so I'll get
these pretty beefy emails from Jonathan a couple of paragraphs
at least, and it usually leads with a question. And
a while ago, the question had to do with the
(18:06):
Three Ruffians, and when I thought about this, and then
you said, hey, I've been doing a little research into this,
this and that I've been reading up on this, and
you give me a lot of this perspective, and then
I take a step back and I'm like, Okay, well
this is a new area of learning for me, and
this is what I love about freemasonry, especially with the
brothers like you. When it comes to the Three Ruffians,
you know, we're told obviously in our ritual and we're
(18:27):
not going to give any secrets away about who these
people are and kind of in the allegory what they're
supposed to represent. Right, And as I've said many times before,
I feel so unfortunate for brothers that observe that part
of the degree walk out of the temple or the
lodge room and think that's where the learning ends, is
right there at that moment where your kind of proof,
(18:50):
where it actually goes beyond that You've been a master
mason for some time and now you're finally getting to
this part of because it's now relevant in your life.
So give me a little overview of that, like where
were you Why were you looking into the meaning of
the Three Ruffians? And what is it that you got
(19:10):
out of Sufiism that everything else in your background really
couldn't present an answer to.
Speaker 3 (19:17):
So I would actually say it was interesting because I
was talking with a few brothers from New York on
the story topic. Because I'm actually doing the third Ruffian
of the third degree now and before this, the term
I've been used with regards to, you know, trying to
seek information that you may not be ready for or
fully understand. Me. It was kind of contra you know
Klin too that because as a doctor, you're like, you're
(19:39):
supposed to try to find answers, like this person either
knows something or somebody knows something that can help you
answer a question about management or what you don't know.
But to say, like, hey, you can't just ask this
to be given was colorintuitive. So it took me a
while to kind of wrap my mind around. But when
I was talking about the third Ruffian with some of
(19:59):
the the other masons I knew from New York, one
of them actually brought in or discussed the ritual from
the way it's done New York that the third Ruffian gives.
Oddly enough, DC doesn't do that. So there's a whole
part in there that kind of elucidates more out of
the motive and meaning behind what this particular character is
supposed to represent. At the end of it, the major
(20:22):
theme is about your integrity as a person. That's really emphasized.
And once he said that, I said, oh, that's very
interesting because it goes back to why the idea of
character is so emphasized in free masonry, because when you
think about it's like why do we have all this
stuff on morals, Like we have to be talking all
these things, like some of them seem very like obvious,
(20:42):
like yeah, like you should do that to be What's
interesting is that when we were talking about the third Ruffian,
I started realizing why it was so emphasized, because at
the end of the day, the one thing that is
intangible that people rely on is your integrity as a person.
Word who you are as a person speaks louder than
(21:04):
anything else that you do. And it's funny because you
don't think about that way, but then you realize it's like, yeah,
like people trust me in my job, you know, like
people learn to trust you very quickly. But it's something
you earn, and the way you earn that is by
what you actually do and how you carry yourself. The
integrity by which your name is backed by what you
(21:25):
do as a person. So when we use all these analogies,
it really kind of game back to the idea in
Sufism about the heart, who you are as a person,
how you live your life, how does that relate to
the physical and non physical aspects that we even talk
about in the craft. So it started putting it together
a lot of things without mean necessarily having to be
(21:47):
an expert at the ritual at every degree of freemasonry.
The one character by just studying that aspect opened up
a lot more insight, and I think that was the
lesson I learned is that to understand freemasonry, you don't
have to necessarily do every single thing to understand the
full picture. Dune times, it's just doing the small areas
that you're part of the lodge or that you're learning,
(22:09):
and really just taking time to really learn it and
sometimes being patient with the fact that it will take
time for it to unfold. But eventually the answer will come,
and it's usually when you're not specting.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
I'm just going to pause and give that some space
so that it really resonates. I feel like the worst
thing you can tell a newly raised brother or a
newly obligated or even you know, a newly raised brother
when they ask a question, oh, hey, well you should
go read this book. I think that's the worst thing
that we can tell as master Masons to new brothers.
(22:42):
Why because that's not what they're looking for it. You
can give them some of it and say you can
learn more by reading this book. Here's a resource for you.
But just giving them go read this book that just
turns people off. Don't do that. And then I like
the other point that you say is that you're not
speaking of books. You don't have to be the best
(23:02):
ritualist to really get the most out of Freemason. Learn
the parts that you can get involved where you can,
because I look at it as like this is a
lifetime obligation that you've taken. You've got a whole life
to learn everything about that book. And there's three degrees.
You're never going to learn every little intricate part of it,
(23:23):
because there's always going to be some new area of
thought or somewhere new to explore, or somebody's new opinion.
And I like to look at somebody as you as
like the perfect example because looking back, if you could
go back to you, brother Jonathan Capel, just being raised
to that sublime degree of master Mason, you still got
that new shiny Mason look about you. How seasoned do
(23:44):
you feel you are now versus that time in the past.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
I would say, I don't think season is the right word.
I think it's more of a realization of kind of
like a PhD, how much you didn't know, but it
wasn't knowing. It was I had an experience been exposed to,
you know, being from you know, being raised in Lubbock,
and then coming to DC, that whole dynamic, you know,
coming here was very enlightening. And I think that was
(24:12):
part of that realization too, is that when you don't travel,
that's the idea, when you don't travel and you aren't
exposing yourself, what you see is what you're used to.
But if someone doesn't pull you out and put you
into different areas, then you'll never know what you don't know,
and you'll never know what you're missing. In fact, I
think that's one of the great tragedies, is that you'll
(24:33):
have masons that will be really get the ritual in
one area and they really pride themselves. But then what's
funny is again you go to New York, you go
somewhere else and it's completely different, and then you take
a step back. It's like, well, is the point to
really master the rituals so much that you can memorize it,
or is it more important that you understand and appreciate
(24:53):
the lessons and unders in the depth of what's being said,
so that it actually impacts who you are. Because the
ultimate thing that I've learned from a lot Masons in
the East Coast especially, is that they care more about
who you are and how you apply what's being taught
than if you can memorize a few lots, because I
think they've seem to make people that they can memorize
(25:14):
the work, but you can tell it hasn't really dunk
into their soul. You know. That's what people want to
see is how much you've changed and grown as they've
seen you, rather than just knowing information.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Let's get back to Sufiism. I'm hoping that our listener,
whether they are a Mason at any level or just
have a general interest in freemasonry, by listening to this podcast,
are somewhat familiar with this conversation that we're having where
we talk about the basis of freemasonry. Our foundation is
the building of King Solomon's temple, which is kind of
the allegory of building your own spiritual temple, which is
(26:05):
you you are that temple from the floor up, and
we've made that point several times, and I just hope
that it connects. And one of the things that you
had shared with me before this episode is that Sufi's
emphasized the importance of spiritual purification, good deeds, and seeking
knowledge of God as paths to salvation. And I'm just
(26:27):
curious if the building of King Solomon's temple, that symbolic
temple that we build in freemasonry are quote unquote unique allegory.
Does the Sufi tradition make any connections or relate to
that particular aspect of freemasonry.
Speaker 3 (26:42):
That's actually a nominally a good question. I think it
kind of goes back to like the heart of what
kind of stood out to me, because I think the
first thing that I would say with regards to like
the Sufism is that when it comes to things like
spiritual purification, it's really about clearing your mind so you
can be recept of the thing. So I think, in
other words, is that it's less about being perfect, because like,
(27:04):
if you read a loive of the Sufi tradition, you'll
read things from Rumy and a few other poets where
they're actually very comical. They actually are very good at
making fun of each other in a way, and they
use that's a way of kind of showing, you know,
the imperfections in our spiritual teachers and saying, we're just
human as much as you are, and probably more lost
(27:25):
than you realize, and we're much more aware of that imperfection.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
I just thinking, like, is this like the ancient like
Drake and Kendrick lamar Rap battles that were going on.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
It was funny because like there was stories that would
be taught about, you know, students would ask one master
about another master, and like a lot of what their
like wisdom would come from is by self denigration or
denigrating the other person. And that was not done to humiliate,
but just the show that you're not meant to hold
(27:56):
your mentor up to this pestal of perfection. They're there
to help illuminate what's within you. So in other words,
the self purification is more about teaching you to get
rid of all your self precat you know, self notions
of perfection, biases, things that get in the way of
receiving that which is already out there. And what's out
(28:17):
there is usually found in the average day people that
we work with That's usually where I found a lot
of the things I've learned is just from a happy sance,
conversation with one person that I've been with, or you know,
just going about my day to day routine, average thing.
So I think that's the first part. The other part
that really I thought was emphasized was always asking questions
(28:40):
and seeking knowledge through things that require you to be
more receptive than active. So whether it's meditation, whether it's walking,
even just being open to asking questions and even thinking
I've never really asked this before, like what does this
really mean? I think that's the elements that I see
in Sufism that resonate with Freemasonry, because in the craft
(29:03):
we are taught to always seek, ask and not you know,
that's part of the first degree. The more that I've
gone through the degrees, I realized that's the basis by
what you grow. I think the problem is is that
people get so much into the routine that come into
the lot that they forget to keep asking questions because
they get used to the business of the lot or
(29:23):
doing things. But then the one takes a step back
and say, you know, why do we do it this way?
You know, like this is really bizarre, Like, of all
the things we could do, why do we open the
lots way? Why do we do this? When you lose
that sense of curiosity, I think then you get into
the trouble of the monotony. There's nothing new, there's nothing.
You're actually closing your mind again because you've lost that
(29:46):
innocence and that sense of curiosity that brought you in
the freemasonry to begin with. So to kind of summarize,
I would say that the spiritual purification is really just
clearing your mind so that you can be open to
asking those questions and seeking the knowledge that you need
at the particular time in life, in the stage that
you're at.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
I'm thinking, the only other person and I've been doing
this for a while, and I'm saying masonry for a
while that I've ever heard mention it. It was probably
our brother and author Angel Malar. I think he has
mentioned sufism is on an episode or in a conversation
with me before, but other than that, no one. And
(30:26):
when I find so interesting about this, you used the
keywords like the mentorship and you know, seeking, and it
makes me think of like young people like yourself and
why they would be drawn to Sufiism or sufism, why
would this be meaningful to them?
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Doufism emphasizes that level of intimacy and honesty that people
are looking for. In other words, people are not asking
for just the run of the mill knowledge that they've
heard from every single person. It's really saying life is difficult.
You're not going to get good answers, not always going
to have the answers given to your You know up
(31:02):
front it's going to be a struggle at times. But
these are the practices and things that help. And sometimes
mentorship is a good way of having a mirror, almost
like therapy, to talk and say this is what I'm
dealing with, and having someone who's been on that journey
and still learning really helps engage two people together and
you gain that knowledge and understanding from someone You can
(31:26):
fully reveal your most vulnerable self too, and that, I
think is what people are really looking for, especially in
a day where so many things are changing, and the
fact that you know, compared to like fifty years ago
in medicine, if you talk to someone about like the
immune system, they would only have to know like that much.
You know everything about the immune system is like millions
(31:46):
upon millions of pages. Now it's so much that would
last you more than like a few lifetimes to really
even encapsulate, and most of that's going to be wrong.
So then the question is, like, where do I find
myself in the midst of all this change, and how
do I just properly so that I I don't lose
sight of who I am while being open to what
I need to become to handle these challenges them m.
Speaker 2 (32:09):
It's interesting you say that because I, as somebody who's
a gen exer, like I look at the younger generations
and sometimes I get a little frustrated because I feel
like it's easier for them life. But then I forget that,
you know, the challenges just present themselves differently, and in
a world now, as you kind of pointed out, where
information is just a couple of clicks and an inter
(32:30):
button away thanks to the Internet and you know now
AI and machine learning. But to the point where you're saying, well,
the authentic, the realness, that that real connection, that feeling
that you know, that organic natural that love, as you
had mentioned, you can't replicate that with technology right now, Like, yeah,
(32:53):
you could make great art and wonderful music, and but
that real feeling that comes when there's that spiritual, soulful connection.
And it's interesting you when you think about that, and
like a religious or in like a spiritual context, is
that there are so many people who are literally just
kind of walking around right now, confused, dazed, unsure of themselves,
(33:18):
and to stumble across something like this in any way
could be that little piece of light that they need
to get out of that hole or tunnel that they
keep wandering down.
Speaker 3 (33:29):
I mean, it kind of goes back to things that
are telling the first degree about the idea of light
and dark. And the thing I really like about that
kind of dichotomy is it reminded me that it's not
as much what matters is about good or bad or
the light in dark in life is the fact that
you learn from them. And that's been like one of
the most important lessons I've learned, especially as a doctor,
(33:51):
because I see incredibly good things, amazing things that surprise me,
and then you'll see some really awful things, for instance,
like seeing people in their thirties get diagnosed with a
devastating disease and they have all the responsibilities and you're
in that same age group, and you can empathize with
them because you know what it's like to be like, Wow,
I'm your same age, and yet our paths are two
(34:13):
completely different journeys and you just got the rough end
of the stick and there's no rhyme or reason to it.
It's not that this person was worse than me. Nothing,
It just happened. And I think the more that you
see all those things happen with people, it gives you
this sense of humility to be appreciative for what you
(34:35):
have and being able to participate where they're at, but
then also realizing that there's a lot that you take
for granted, that the important thing to do is to
make sure you're not wasting the time that's given because
at the end of the day, no one knows the
time that they'll end. And the last thing you want
to do is then not live authentically. And I think
(34:56):
for Sufism, that's the thing I asked you, is you
have to live authentically because at the end of the day,
the only relationship that you can carry forward is the
one that you can't touch, the one they necessarily point
to you and say God's right there. You can't do that,
So it asks you to really say, if everything was
stripped away from you, what would actually be left? And
(35:17):
that's a hard question for people to answer. Where everything
that people's identity is based on is all external, it's
not really internal. People identify by their job, being married,
family relationships, everything else external. But then internal it's like, well,
how do you define yourself? Unfortunately no one else can
do that. You have to determine that with God. And
(35:39):
that's the hard part because you can't get any external
reward for that. No one's going to get how much
you've grown. And I think that's the heart.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
So, Brother Jonathan, I think we've done a fabulous job
of kind of laying out what this is all about.
And I'm sure there's our listeners saying okay, I'm interested.
You got me, Like, where would you recommend for someone?
And I'm sure I pronounced sufism wrong every single time.
I don't even have to look in the comments for
this episode. I apologize in advance. I realize I've pronounced
it in correctly. But instead of telling somebody, we'll go
(36:10):
read this book. Maybe sometimes that is the option here.
What's a great way for someone to get into the
baby steps of Sufism.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
So I have a few good resources I think instead
reading a book, because that is, like he said, the
easiest thing. There's actually a good YouTube channel called Religion
for Breakfast, and he actually has a philosophy. I think
he's actually a professor in the philosophy religion or he's
a student in it, and he has videos on different
(36:40):
religious sex and he does one just on Sufism. What's
nice is that he does it on the belief system
and the history, so he goes into like the misconceptions
that He's like, you know, people call Sufism the mysticism
of Islam. He's like, well, wait a minute, Suphism is
not always a non violent faith. He's like, here's the
history of how it's had its own interesting history. But
(37:01):
I think there's a lot good YouTube videos that can
really give you a sense of the different cultural dimensions
and the diversity in the Sufi tradition. To start off with,
the other thing that's really helpful is if you're going
to read anything, just read the poetry of Roomy, read
the poetry at Fees, all these different other Sufi poets,
because they didn't just write a textbook saying here is
(37:23):
my spiritual philosophy of life. In fact, most of what
they wrote was actually in poetry, so in the good
thing is that it's more open to interpretation. On the
other hand, it's much more approachable because you don't need
to read the entire Roomy poetry set to understand what
he's talking and so I think you can pick and
choose what resonates with you. And I think that's kind
(37:45):
of the beauty, is that you don't have to start
from point A and point z to understand everything. You
can pick and choose what really resonates and then reflect them.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Third time, final time this year, but not as final
time ever because we're going to reload and get it
back in here next year. We're going to say goodbye
for now, though, and many thanks thanks for coming on
this week, Jonathan anytime. Thanks again to my guests this week,
brother Jonathan Copple, for giving us a deeper look on
Sufiism and freemasonry. Hey, if you've enjoyed this episode, make
(38:19):
sure you follow The Craftsman Online podcast on Spotify or
subscribe on Apple Podcasts for new episodes every Monday morning,
And just a reminder, in two weeks we stack them
up the ten biggest episodes. Is our countdown kicks off
of the Craftsman online podcast for the year twenty twenty four.
I look forward to seeing you then until next time,
(38:42):
it's right worship of Brother Michael Arse saying, let peace
and harmony prevail
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