August 14, 2023 • 28 mins
Stoicism has had a lasting influence on Western philosophy and continues to resonate with individuals seeking wisdom, resilience, and personal development. Bro. Franklin Rings joins us for a look into how stoic principles are applied in the Craft.
>>> Show Links <<<
Listen to Erick Cloward's "The Stoic Coffee Break"
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>>> Show Links <<<
Listen to Erick Cloward's "The Stoic Coffee Break"
Visit Ryan Holiday's "The Daily Stoic"
Start your FREE 7-day trial of the Craftsmen Online subscription!
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/craftsmen-online-podcast--4822031/support.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:14):
Welcome to the Craftsman Online podcast,the only five star rated Masonic podcast endorsed
by the Grand Lodge of New York. The comments, opinions, and views
shared during this program are those ofindividual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, ConcordinateBody, appendant body, or Masonic authority.
I'm your host, brother Michael R. Say, co founder of Craftsman
Online dot com. Just a quickreminder that you can now listen early and
(00:36):
add free to our podcast with ournew subscriber offer. Get the link to
start your seven day free trial andthe notes for this episode. And just
looking at him on my screen,I realized it's probably been a while since
we've had our guest back, BrotherFranklin Rings, joins us for a podcast
episode on the stoic approach to ourcraft. Welcome back, brother Rings.
(00:58):
Thank you for having me, BrotherR. It's a great honor and a
great privilege. It was I thinkthe fall of last year when we had
a great conversation with Brother Franklin onTaoism. I still remember how to say
it right. I was saying Taoismat first, but he helped me out
there, and incidentally, it becameone of our top five most listened to
episodes for twenty twenty two. Socongratulations again, brother Rings. Congratulations on
(01:21):
your podcast success. In that regard, it's all because of the guests,
And since then, I've been ableto kind of pick up some of my
stoic books and get back to someof my stoicism to prepare for our time
together. And I'm just interested inknowing you. You're a deep guy.
You're really kind of impressed with likethe Far East or Eastern mysticism and mindset.
(01:42):
How did you land on stoicism?How did you discover it? Mu,
So, Stoicism has a pretty likea deep aspect of my life in
that regard. I discovered it rightat the beginning of the pandemic. I
was going through some pretty tumultuous andpersonal things in my life and I just
began using Spotify during this time period, and during that time period, I
(02:07):
found a podcast called The Stoic CoffeeBreak, and The Stoic Coffee Break essentially
takes Stoic principles and a quote andbreaks it down to a good lecture that
you can do within like the spanof a coffee break. And that got
my mind thinking more positively and givingme more energy, and that really pushed
(02:28):
me to begin seeking out the philosophyin a more like fuller breath, in
a deeper way. But it reallystarted with a podcast. So you were
already a master mason at that well, actually, no, you were getting
ready to get into masonry at thatpoint. I was actually inquiring into freemasonry
at that time period, but Iwasn't even like an interested gentleman at that
(02:49):
point. Okay, so there wasno potential crossover and nothing you were reading
in one side where you're like,well, I'm influenced. I want to
learn a little bit more about thatover here. I think Stoicism did begin
to move me into the lens ofwanting to work with a group of men
who shared virtue. But during thattime period, I don't think I was
really looking into freemasonry outside of maybeseeing what the group was about. Because
(03:15):
the two of course do overlap insome capacity, right right. And that's
the interesting thing when you think aboutoutsiders or those looking to get into the
craft, there's so many other partsof what happens in freemasonry that does touch
into other disciplines or practices or waysof thought, but you're so focused on
(03:36):
that little bucket of what you know, that thimble of you know, the
either it's the conspiracy theories or theNational Treasure movies, you know, that
pop culture revenue. Things like stoicismsometimes like just slide under the under the
radar there. Indeed, Yeah,it's super true. Stoicism something that continues
to pop out throughout time too,Like it'll go by the wayside for a
(04:00):
couple hundred years, but then you'llsee a few key individuals bring it back
out into the light and it'll havelike this explosion of almost like a cultural
renewal, and then it will fallback down. So I think it kind
of it does align in that regard. Yeah, for me, I discovered
stoicism after I had taken I thinkI was a fellowcraft, if not a
(04:21):
Master Mason at that point. No, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I
was a Master Mason at that pointbecause I was working for a health club
chain in Albany and one of thepersonal trainers that I became friends with,
we just fell onto Marcus Aurelius's Meditationsand I had discovered it through a friend
(04:41):
and it was one of those booksthat allegedly Bill Clinton reads every summer,
and a lot of like world leaderswill quote this is where they get,
you know, their inspiration or ideason how to become a stronger leader.
So I picked it up and startedthumbing through it, and this guy was
also reading it, and we justhad this weird conversation. No where we're
talking about sets and super sets andresting and active rest days. We started
(05:05):
having these cool conversations on stoicism.So I had wished that I had been
more exposed to it because things thatwe talk about in our degree and we'll
get to that in this podcast episode. It was like taking a highlighter in
my mind and going, oh,that's what they were talking about, because
it also relates to this and stoicism. Yes, super true. I mean,
(05:27):
there are so many overlapping points,and I find that once somebody gets
introduced to stoicism in particular, it'sbeen my experience that they begin seeing how
it applies in their own lives andthen they start to really run with it
in that direction. So I cansee that for sure. So let's level
sit here, because I'm sure forour listener that may not be familiar with
stoicism. They're like, Okay,is this going to be one of those
(05:48):
episodes where they talk about it butthey never really tell me what it means.
And there's a couple of places,and we're going to share the links.
We'll share this Stoic Coffee Break podcastthat Brother Rings suggest. I'm also
going to share this one. Ithink he's probably one of the better known
modern stoics, and that's Ryan Holliday, who has the Daily Stoic book and
(06:09):
also a podcast with the same name. There's a newsletter as email newsletter you
can sign up for. If Iwas to explain stoicism to an outsider or
someone unfamiliar with it, I wouldjust say it's a way of thinking about
your problems or struggles that happen inlife with the mindset that hey think of
(06:30):
it as a game that's all beenplayed before, it's all been decided.
So the things that you would wantto that could potentially cause stress or problems
in your life, don't focus onthose. Focus more on the things that
you can control in the decisions thatyou can make that could possibly provide a
(06:51):
better outcome for Again, what's alreadybeen decided, what's already been done.
I think the biggest Stoic idea thatI always give people is, to me,
life is a series of tiny littleevents that maybe in the moment seemed
like massive things. Put it intothe thought of like getting a new job
(07:15):
or a promotion at work, orworking as a freemason, going you know,
becoming a master mason. That wasthe thing you wanted to do,
but there were tons of little stepsthat had to happen in order for the
big thing to happen. And younever really know what the big thing is
because it hasn't happened yet. Butyou think all these tiny little moments are
(07:35):
those things, and as a Stoic, you would take a step back and
just realize, okay, these aremany parts that are going to equal a
greater sum. That's my interpretation.How do you explain it, Franklin?
I think that's an incredibly concise wayto put it. Honestly, there's a
lot of different ways to interpret stoicism, but I truly think it's best to
(07:59):
find as a way to live avirtuous life. And the Stoic principles are
guided by four foundational virtues, whichare courage, temperance, justice, and
wisdom, which kind of overlap withmasonry very heavily. But the following those
four cardinal virtues will allow you tolive a virtuous life by those four virtues.
(08:20):
And if you can take those fourvirtues, run with them and notice
things that you can control and whatyou cannot control, and begin to exercise
those virtues and the things you cancontrol, and just be more mindful surrounding
the things you do not control.It's almost like it's like you're walking through
life, and life is like adark cave, and if you don't have
(08:43):
the virtues, you can't see whereyou're going. But if you have the
virtues, it's like a torch thatallows you to see your surroundings and gain
a better idea of what's going on. And then you actually know the path
in which you need to walk,and those virtues help you do that.
One of the other lessons for mewas I takes me back to my midnight
freemason days. I had to Googlesearch for this article, but I lifted
(09:05):
a part of Marcus Aurelius's meditations.When he talks about it's like he's screaming
up to the heavens. I canimagine he says, quote, is it
possible that one day I shall seeyou, oh my soul, good,
simple, indivisible, stripped of everypretense, more solid than the flesh that
covers you. Now, will youever know a day of unclouded love and
(09:26):
tenderness? Will you ever be content? No hopes, no regrets, needing
nothing, desiring nothing animate or inanimate, not even for a moment's pleasure,
nor wanting a little more to prolongthe ecstasy or more pleasing room or view
or climate or suite, accord inyour relationships with others, Like he's basically
(09:48):
saying, will there'll ever come atime in my life, this person inside
of me that's pulling all these lovers? Will you ever just be satisfied?
Or are you going to be wantingto attain and achieve more? And when
I read that, I was like, WHOA, that's the twenty four inch
gauge. That's what the whole partabout, divesting our heart and consciousness of
(10:11):
the superfluities of life. That's theworking tools that we get in the EA.
Like right there he is struggling withthis in his life, like which
one of us haven't sat here?And to me, this is an example
that I give to a lot ofI mean, I don't really always quote
Marcus Surrealius to the brothers I doMasonic education with. But when we look
(10:33):
for an example and it's like,well, what does it mean vices and
superfluities, I think of the wordsof Marcus Surrealius, which is the constant
need, need, need that drivesa lot of us, those desires,
those path they're not in due boundsof what's good with mankind or even with
ourselves. Like we have to identifythat and sometimes just take a pause and
(10:56):
say, let me just enjoy thismoment and joy the happiness I have right
now. When I think about thingsprecisely like that, I always think about
the squaring compasses, Like temperance isone of the cardinal virtues of Stoicism,
and I think that relates almost directlyto the square, Like you have to
(11:18):
square your actions. You have tokeep yourself into bounce with the compasses.
Right, these two things should hopefullypoint you in the direction of things you
can control and things you can influenceyour will on, and that all ends
up leading back to you. Youcan see that with the compasses. So
I couldn't agree more. I thinkof when it comes to morality, and
(11:39):
virtue, And think of that beautifulpart in the third degree when the senior
deacon has a conversation with the candidatebefore the Herramic legend begins, where you
really get into talking about the legacyof higher Mambiff and why he's held in
such a high regard, and youliterally into sentences like say, this is
(12:01):
why he was known for this,and he exemplified it by doing this.
And to me, when I gotto that part of learning that this was
now three years after discovering Marcus Surrealisin Stoicism, and I'm like, this
is what they're talking about when itcomes to a virtuous life and being a
morally centered good person. Yeah,the virtue is just absolutely integral. And
(12:26):
I think Hiramabiff is, like isan archetypal figure for exactly that he's exemplifying
who and what we should be acting, like, like what is that modality
in your life you're trying to emulateand work on? And in that regard,
I think he's near synonymous with theseStoic principles. I mean you can
see it in the courage, whichis the first of the cardinal virtues in
(12:48):
Stoicism. Hirambiff is courageous in theactions he takes, and that's literally the
foundation of how Stoics should be livingtheir lives. You've dropped a couple phrases.
(13:13):
You mentioned momental more, which doeshave a crossover with freemasonry. I'll
try to combine a couple other principleshere. One is I might be saying
this wrong, but it's a morefaughty, which is love of fate,
the Stoics acceptance of love and ofthe fate of destiny. The other idea,
as we've kind of mentioned throughout thisis the self discipline, mastering one's
(13:35):
emotions and desires. You made acomment that this kind of connects to that
square encompass, and I feel likethe explanation of the square encompass throughout our
degrees. I always feel bad forthe square because it's just said, it's
a square to square your actions,and it's just such a simple thing.
(13:56):
But when you examine it through nowthis wider lens with a little Stoicism sprinkled
on top, how much wider doesyour perspective of the square encompasses go?
For you? Just about as faras the compasses can extend, which is
one hundred and eighty degrees. Sothe way I think about them is always
through the lens of the four Cardinalvirtues of Stoicism, which for people to
(14:22):
do some research on, especially MasonicBrethren, they near overlap with the Masonic
Cardinal virtues, so they play handin hands. I really think about the
square and temperance like a ton.I think temperance is a huge one.
Personally, I'm working on it inmy life, so that's why it immediately
comes to mind. But temperance isan incredibly important thing for our society,
(14:43):
and the square helps with that.The square keeps things squared away, so
that way we have a square lineon where we know the divide is,
or where the divide should be inour mind if this is too much and
this is not enough, And thesquare helps me align with temperance in that
regard. When I think about thecompasses, I do kind of think about
(15:03):
that one with temperance a lot aswell. But of course it has its
play in all things right, likeit definitely works with justice as well.
You think about you're the center ofthe compass sometimes and you know what is
within your sphere to help control andinfluence, and we want to be righteous
in that regard, and we wantto be able to help people in justice
(15:26):
as a huge benefactor in that regard, and justice is the principle you rely
on and in that regard. Sothere really is so much fluidity in these
ideas. Yeah, and death issuch a big part. I know this
sounds really weird to say, butit's such a big part of stoicism.
It is it's uncomfortable to talk aboutit because nobody wants it's again that date
(15:52):
that's already been predetermined for us andhow it's going to happen already been set
certainly, and in freemasonry we alsotalk about that in the same way,
which I feel is one of thoselike when I say it's uncomfortable, it's
like when you're trying to have aconversation with somebody about freemasonry or stoicism and
you're like, oh, and Nina, I don't want to say this,
but it comes out sound in thisway like we really don't fear death.
(16:15):
What what do you guys like crazy? You know, no, No,
we just we understand that it's notthe end. We specifically in freemasonry,
we believe in the immortality of thesoul that it continues to go on.
Yes, in Stoicism, it's kindof a different way of how it's approached.
I remember Marcus a really is talkingabout it, and to me this
(16:36):
was beautiful, like a chef's kisswhere he compares life to the leaves falling
from trees and returning to the earth. Oh man, I'm glad you touched
on momental moor, which for thelisteners if they don't happen to be a
proficient land, which I certainly amnot, is meditation on death, mortality,
momentumory. And I'm more faughty beingthe love of fate right, Like,
(16:57):
this imagery is so powerful. Thequote I came up with with the
sword hanging over your head that comesfrom the daily stoke and meditations as well.
Like this imagery has been absolutely integralfor a lot of things I do
outside of freemasonry as well. SoI really I think a lot of people
get this whole like perception of deaththing wrong in that regard, Like if
(17:21):
you imagine instead that like a lotof people think when they live their life,
they're born and then as soon asthey're born, death is free from
them, like they don't have deathand then when they die, death shows
up in life is not there?Right? But I think through the stoke
lens, this is the wrong wayto think about it. You should truly
think about it as you're born andthen without anxiety, but actually, like
(17:44):
some calm comfort, you actually walkwith death throughout your whole life. The
sword hangs over your head and youdon't know when it's going to drop.
And hence this momentum where you sitdown and you recognize like wow, like
I could leave this life at anymoment, which is an their stoic phrase.
You know, be prepared to leavethis life at any moment. And
if that sort is consistently hanging overyour head, I think a lot of
(18:07):
people, especially in today's society,might feel like anxious or scared about that,
and they might become frenzied in theiractions. But the stoic perspective and
lens is that if that sort hangsover you, you should be consistently reminded
to live a virtuous and good lifeand actually die well in that regard,
like you don't want to die andthen think wow, like if you could
(18:30):
look back on your day like wow, I really blew and wasted a lot
of my day. I didn't likespend time on the things I need to
do. Are the things I knowI need to do through your meditation of
death. Right, So if youthink about momental moor and you think about
that sort of hanging over your head, and you realize, wow, I
(18:51):
am actually free from the coil ofdeath because now I'm empowered to live a
virtuous life because who knows what thenext breath could bring me in that regard.
So that's my perspective on it atthe very least. And then the
beautiful imagery of it, like havinglived in Upstate New York and one of
the most beautiful times of the yearis our fall, our autumn, when
(19:12):
you see all the foliage and thetrees and the changing of the colors,
and you're like, what's happening scientifically, which can be explained. This tree
is slowly dying and there's beauty anddeath, and then it falls to the
ground only for those leaves to becomefertilizer so that the tree can continue to
(19:32):
live during the harshness of winter andprovide new seeds new opportunities for growth again
in the spring. And when youweave that concept into like death and it
touches each of us at different partsin our lives and has completely different meaning.
Like now, as a man inhis mid four I'm forty five,
I look to my dad, whois it's common he's at that age where
(19:56):
he's losing a lot of friends toold age or chronic disease or whatever age.
It happens like the candle burns out, so to speak. But I've
also had you know, close friendsor people that you see on the news
that just pass away at at sucha young age, and you're like,
wow, it's it's just so sad. And I think, as a freemason,
(20:18):
why I say I don't fear death. It's not like I'm welcoming it
in any aspect. But I understandthat I've built my symbolic temple I've had,
I have my working tools. Ihave a purpose and a task on
a daily basis that I try todeliver to improve the lives of other people
that are in my circle and mysphere, and try to leave this world
(20:42):
a better place than how I foundit. All those wonderful imagery things,
and as you had said, andI don't even I won't add anything to
how you outlined it with the Stoics. But that's where there's again the parallel
between our great fraternity of this ancientand gentle craft and the words that were
coming from these men centuries ago andhow they still are relevant and relate to
(21:08):
what's happening today. Is that again, you may think that your life,
you're living in a unique time andyou have unique challenges and stresses. Dude,
life is like a Google search.I could google it and we could
find other examples of people who inthis world, the numbers, the math,
(21:29):
it's too big to just think thatyou're just the sole little individual thing.
And that's basically a combination of whatstoicism is telling you is that it's
the experiences. Life is your experiencesof the moments you share with others that
you can continue to share with thosethat are going to come after you.
Yeah, sincerely, Like Ryan Holidaymentions, this thing that always gives me
(21:52):
so much positive energy when I lookout on my day, which is like
again this recognition that life is cyclical, like even though death hangs over us,
like you live and you die,this is just natural, right.
And the Stoics really again, theyhave their they have their base actually in
cynicism. So the yeah, createsof Thebes, right, I believe that's
(22:17):
cynicism. So he was a veryfamous cynic of the time. The founder
of Stoicism learned cynicism from creates ofThebes and actually then made that into Stoicism,
and it's transferred all the way downthe lineage to us. Right,
and Zeno learned from creates of Thebesthat you need to live in accordance with
(22:37):
nature, and death is just anatural part of the world we live in
in that regard. And the thingthat I was attempting to allude to with
Ryan is that he mentions that thosewho pick up the torch of this way
of living are just one in aline and series of people and this tradition
(23:00):
and lineage of people who are tryingto live their life in this virtuous manner.
So you're part of that cycle inthat regard of people who are trying
to live in accordance with nature andare picking up the torch and this heritage,
maybe not through blood, but throughthe way of thinking in the way
of being, as these Stoics havedone for literally thousands of years. So
(23:21):
again the parallel here would be masonry, the way I describe it to people
is it's like a code of howwe decide to live our lives. And
we're not saying that living to bea good and virtuous person only Masons have
the answers to that. No,there's other people, Yeah, the other
religions and cultures and traditions that alsohave seen that there is a path to
(23:45):
get here. And we understand thatit's not something that everybody can do.
So it's not our job to tryto reach and bring people up. It's
just our job to do what webelieve we should be doing it and allowing
for that literal light to be openfor others to be exposed, to discover
and then decide on their own ifthey're going to live through this. So
(24:10):
as you're saying as well, likefreemasonry is all about the actions that we
display are what influence other people.So now, if we take it to
a real simple setting, would bewhen you're sitting in your next you know,
a business meeting at work, orjust even for brothers, you're sitting
in a meeting at lodge, oryou're sitting around the table with your family
(24:30):
at dinner and somebody proposes an ideaor ask a question that's outlandish, stupid,
silly, makes no sense, it'sirrelevant, and it's there's no purpose
to it. Instead of jumping downthat person's throat making a joke that would
be at their expense, taking thatstep back is the stoic approach and also
(24:52):
should be the Masonic approach of Okay, I understand my words have meaning,
actions have mean. What can Isay or what can I do? Or
should I just do nothing and letit pass? And sometimes that's the answer
as well. So I feel likeyou and I we could talk for days
and hours, and I love that, But we're coming close to our time
(25:15):
here on this episode of the podcast, and I really hope that during our
discussion Franklin and I have brought lightto the practice of stoicism again. We're
going to share some links in thenotes for this episode on resources that you
can use, from podcasts to readingmaterials or even email newsletters you can sign
up for. I just want toleave one little takeaway here about the stoic
(25:37):
approach, and it doesn't really advocatefor suppressing our feelings or emotions, but
rather it emphasizes understanding and managing themin a rational and constructive manner. So
with that side note, when youhear the term stoic versus when you heard
it early on in your life,what does it mean to you now stoicism.
(26:02):
I'm so glad you asked that question. This is probably the most important
conversation that can be had surrounding thephilosophy. And I'm going to make myself
a bit of a fool here,but I don't remember where I heard this
from, whether this was from RyanHolliday or whether this was from I think,
actually now that I remember, Ibelieve it was from the Stoic Coffee
(26:22):
break. But they talk about thedifference between lowercase S stoicism and uppercase as
stoicism, And what I and Ibelieve most of our civilization think of as
being Stoic and stoicism is lowercase S. So for you know English, of
course, the lowercase that's the smaller, right, so lowercase asset. That
(26:45):
is the cultural imagery we have inour mind of the person who can sit
there and suppress their emotions and becompletely unchanged by outside influences. There are
people who have now actual dispositions tothat, but that is not stoicism.
Stoicism the philosophy is capital s andas I've begun to understand it now,
(27:08):
it's what we've talked about, right, It's about noticing your emotions and how
they make you feel. And you'remore than allowed and accepted to feel these
things and begin to understand why,but you just don't allow them to control
your make your actions for you.You simply just meditate on them, hopefully,
be mindful and recognize why you feelthe way you feel, and then
(27:32):
you make conscious, logical and rationalaction based on that, as opposed to
the lowercase s, which would bealmost sometimes unhealthy, which is just like
not allowing yourself to feel those emotionsand kind of play off in your mind
that there is maybe nothing bad goingon and you're being irrational in that regard.
So I would highly highly recommend,of course, if you're going to
(27:55):
take the stoke approach, like feelingyour emotions and don't feel like you can't
feel them, just don't allow themto make your actions for me. This
has been the Craftsman Online Podcasts Again, big thanks. I feel you know
it's so funny. I know youand I can see you on the screen.
I wish we could share that withthe listeners. But for such a
(28:15):
young guy, he is so wise. Our guest brother, Franklin Rings,
thanks again for coming on. Brother. It's an honor and a pleasure.
Thank you, Thank you, brother, Our Sea. A reminder that you
can listen to future episodes of theCraftsman Online podcast early and ad free with
our subscriber offer. Get the linkto start your seven day free trial and
the notes for this episode. Untilnext time, let peace and harmony prevail.
Welcome to the Craftsman Online podcast,the only five star rated Masonic podcast endorsed
by the Grand Lodge of New York. The comments, opinions, and views
shared during this program are those ofindividual Freemasons and do not reflect the official
position of a Grand Lodge, ConcordinateBody, appendant body, or Masonic authority.
I'm your host, brother Michael R. Say, co founder of Craftsman
Online dot com. Just a quickreminder that you can now listen early and
(00:36):
add free to our podcast with ournew subscriber offer. Get the link to
start your seven day free trial andthe notes for this episode. And just
looking at him on my screen,I realized it's probably been a while since
we've had our guest back, BrotherFranklin Rings, joins us for a podcast
episode on the stoic approach to ourcraft. Welcome back, brother Rings.
(00:58):
Thank you for having me, BrotherR. It's a great honor and a
great privilege. It was I thinkthe fall of last year when we had
a great conversation with Brother Franklin onTaoism. I still remember how to say
it right. I was saying Taoismat first, but he helped me out
there, and incidentally, it becameone of our top five most listened to
episodes for twenty twenty two. Socongratulations again, brother Rings. Congratulations on
(01:21):
your podcast success. In that regard, it's all because of the guests,
And since then, I've been ableto kind of pick up some of my
stoic books and get back to someof my stoicism to prepare for our time
together. And I'm just interested inknowing you. You're a deep guy.
You're really kind of impressed with likethe Far East or Eastern mysticism and mindset.
(01:42):
How did you land on stoicism?How did you discover it? Mu,
So, Stoicism has a pretty likea deep aspect of my life in
that regard. I discovered it rightat the beginning of the pandemic. I
was going through some pretty tumultuous andpersonal things in my life and I just
began using Spotify during this time period, and during that time period, I
(02:07):
found a podcast called The Stoic CoffeeBreak, and The Stoic Coffee Break essentially
takes Stoic principles and a quote andbreaks it down to a good lecture that
you can do within like the spanof a coffee break. And that got
my mind thinking more positively and givingme more energy, and that really pushed
(02:28):
me to begin seeking out the philosophyin a more like fuller breath, in
a deeper way. But it reallystarted with a podcast. So you were
already a master mason at that well, actually, no, you were getting
ready to get into masonry at thatpoint. I was actually inquiring into freemasonry
at that time period, but Iwasn't even like an interested gentleman at that
(02:49):
point. Okay, so there wasno potential crossover and nothing you were reading
in one side where you're like,well, I'm influenced. I want to
learn a little bit more about thatover here. I think Stoicism did begin
to move me into the lens ofwanting to work with a group of men
who shared virtue. But during thattime period, I don't think I was
really looking into freemasonry outside of maybeseeing what the group was about. Because
(03:15):
the two of course do overlap insome capacity, right right. And that's
the interesting thing when you think aboutoutsiders or those looking to get into the
craft, there's so many other partsof what happens in freemasonry that does touch
into other disciplines or practices or waysof thought, but you're so focused on
(03:36):
that little bucket of what you know, that thimble of you know, the
either it's the conspiracy theories or theNational Treasure movies, you know, that
pop culture revenue. Things like stoicismsometimes like just slide under the under the
radar there. Indeed, Yeah,it's super true. Stoicism something that continues
to pop out throughout time too,Like it'll go by the wayside for a
(04:00):
couple hundred years, but then you'llsee a few key individuals bring it back
out into the light and it'll havelike this explosion of almost like a cultural
renewal, and then it will fallback down. So I think it kind
of it does align in that regard. Yeah, for me, I discovered
stoicism after I had taken I thinkI was a fellowcraft, if not a
(04:21):
Master Mason at that point. No, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, I
was a Master Mason at that pointbecause I was working for a health club
chain in Albany and one of thepersonal trainers that I became friends with,
we just fell onto Marcus Aurelius's Meditationsand I had discovered it through a friend
(04:41):
and it was one of those booksthat allegedly Bill Clinton reads every summer,
and a lot of like world leaderswill quote this is where they get,
you know, their inspiration or ideason how to become a stronger leader.
So I picked it up and startedthumbing through it, and this guy was
also reading it, and we justhad this weird conversation. No where we're
talking about sets and super sets andresting and active rest days. We started
(05:05):
having these cool conversations on stoicism.So I had wished that I had been
more exposed to it because things thatwe talk about in our degree and we'll
get to that in this podcast episode. It was like taking a highlighter in
my mind and going, oh,that's what they were talking about, because
it also relates to this and stoicism. Yes, super true. I mean,
(05:27):
there are so many overlapping points,and I find that once somebody gets
introduced to stoicism in particular, it'sbeen my experience that they begin seeing how
it applies in their own lives andthen they start to really run with it
in that direction. So I cansee that for sure. So let's level
sit here, because I'm sure forour listener that may not be familiar with
stoicism. They're like, Okay,is this going to be one of those
(05:48):
episodes where they talk about it butthey never really tell me what it means.
And there's a couple of places,and we're going to share the links.
We'll share this Stoic Coffee Break podcastthat Brother Rings suggest. I'm also
going to share this one. Ithink he's probably one of the better known
modern stoics, and that's Ryan Holliday, who has the Daily Stoic book and
(06:09):
also a podcast with the same name. There's a newsletter as email newsletter you
can sign up for. If Iwas to explain stoicism to an outsider or
someone unfamiliar with it, I wouldjust say it's a way of thinking about
your problems or struggles that happen inlife with the mindset that hey think of
(06:30):
it as a game that's all beenplayed before, it's all been decided.
So the things that you would wantto that could potentially cause stress or problems
in your life, don't focus onthose. Focus more on the things that
you can control in the decisions thatyou can make that could possibly provide a
(06:51):
better outcome for Again, what's alreadybeen decided, what's already been done.
I think the biggest Stoic idea thatI always give people is, to me,
life is a series of tiny littleevents that maybe in the moment seemed
like massive things. Put it intothe thought of like getting a new job
(07:15):
or a promotion at work, orworking as a freemason, going you know,
becoming a master mason. That wasthe thing you wanted to do,
but there were tons of little stepsthat had to happen in order for the
big thing to happen. And younever really know what the big thing is
because it hasn't happened yet. Butyou think all these tiny little moments are
(07:35):
those things, and as a Stoic, you would take a step back and
just realize, okay, these aremany parts that are going to equal a
greater sum. That's my interpretation.How do you explain it, Franklin?
I think that's an incredibly concise wayto put it. Honestly, there's a
lot of different ways to interpret stoicism, but I truly think it's best to
(07:59):
find as a way to live avirtuous life. And the Stoic principles are
guided by four foundational virtues, whichare courage, temperance, justice, and
wisdom, which kind of overlap withmasonry very heavily. But the following those
four cardinal virtues will allow you tolive a virtuous life by those four virtues.
(08:20):
And if you can take those fourvirtues, run with them and notice
things that you can control and whatyou cannot control, and begin to exercise
those virtues and the things you cancontrol, and just be more mindful surrounding
the things you do not control.It's almost like it's like you're walking through
life, and life is like adark cave, and if you don't have
(08:43):
the virtues, you can't see whereyou're going. But if you have the
virtues, it's like a torch thatallows you to see your surroundings and gain
a better idea of what's going on. And then you actually know the path
in which you need to walk,and those virtues help you do that.
One of the other lessons for mewas I takes me back to my midnight
freemason days. I had to Googlesearch for this article, but I lifted
(09:05):
a part of Marcus Aurelius's meditations.When he talks about it's like he's screaming
up to the heavens. I canimagine he says, quote, is it
possible that one day I shall seeyou, oh my soul, good,
simple, indivisible, stripped of everypretense, more solid than the flesh that
covers you. Now, will youever know a day of unclouded love and
(09:26):
tenderness? Will you ever be content? No hopes, no regrets, needing
nothing, desiring nothing animate or inanimate, not even for a moment's pleasure,
nor wanting a little more to prolongthe ecstasy or more pleasing room or view
or climate or suite, accord inyour relationships with others, Like he's basically
(09:48):
saying, will there'll ever come atime in my life, this person inside
of me that's pulling all these lovers? Will you ever just be satisfied?
Or are you going to be wantingto attain and achieve more? And when
I read that, I was like, WHOA, that's the twenty four inch
gauge. That's what the whole partabout, divesting our heart and consciousness of
(10:11):
the superfluities of life. That's theworking tools that we get in the EA.
Like right there he is struggling withthis in his life, like which
one of us haven't sat here?And to me, this is an example
that I give to a lot ofI mean, I don't really always quote
Marcus Surrealius to the brothers I doMasonic education with. But when we look
(10:33):
for an example and it's like,well, what does it mean vices and
superfluities, I think of the wordsof Marcus Surrealius, which is the constant
need, need, need that drivesa lot of us, those desires,
those path they're not in due boundsof what's good with mankind or even with
ourselves. Like we have to identifythat and sometimes just take a pause and
(10:56):
say, let me just enjoy thismoment and joy the happiness I have right
now. When I think about thingsprecisely like that, I always think about
the squaring compasses, Like temperance isone of the cardinal virtues of Stoicism,
and I think that relates almost directlyto the square, Like you have to
(11:18):
square your actions. You have tokeep yourself into bounce with the compasses.
Right, these two things should hopefullypoint you in the direction of things you
can control and things you can influenceyour will on, and that all ends
up leading back to you. Youcan see that with the compasses. So
I couldn't agree more. I thinkof when it comes to morality, and
(11:39):
virtue, And think of that beautifulpart in the third degree when the senior
deacon has a conversation with the candidatebefore the Herramic legend begins, where you
really get into talking about the legacyof higher Mambiff and why he's held in
such a high regard, and youliterally into sentences like say, this is
(12:01):
why he was known for this,and he exemplified it by doing this.
And to me, when I gotto that part of learning that this was
now three years after discovering Marcus Surrealisin Stoicism, and I'm like, this
is what they're talking about when itcomes to a virtuous life and being a
morally centered good person. Yeah,the virtue is just absolutely integral. And
(12:26):
I think Hiramabiff is, like isan archetypal figure for exactly that he's exemplifying
who and what we should be acting, like, like what is that modality
in your life you're trying to emulateand work on? And in that regard,
I think he's near synonymous with theseStoic principles. I mean you can
see it in the courage, whichis the first of the cardinal virtues in
(12:48):
Stoicism. Hirambiff is courageous in theactions he takes, and that's literally the
foundation of how Stoics should be livingtheir lives. You've dropped a couple phrases.
(13:13):
You mentioned momental more, which doeshave a crossover with freemasonry. I'll
try to combine a couple other principleshere. One is I might be saying
this wrong, but it's a morefaughty, which is love of fate,
the Stoics acceptance of love and ofthe fate of destiny. The other idea,
as we've kind of mentioned throughout thisis the self discipline, mastering one's
(13:35):
emotions and desires. You made acomment that this kind of connects to that
square encompass, and I feel likethe explanation of the square encompass throughout our
degrees. I always feel bad forthe square because it's just said, it's
a square to square your actions,and it's just such a simple thing.
(13:56):
But when you examine it through nowthis wider lens with a little Stoicism sprinkled
on top, how much wider doesyour perspective of the square encompasses go?
For you? Just about as faras the compasses can extend, which is
one hundred and eighty degrees. Sothe way I think about them is always
through the lens of the four Cardinalvirtues of Stoicism, which for people to
(14:22):
do some research on, especially MasonicBrethren, they near overlap with the Masonic
Cardinal virtues, so they play handin hands. I really think about the
square and temperance like a ton.I think temperance is a huge one.
Personally, I'm working on it inmy life, so that's why it immediately
comes to mind. But temperance isan incredibly important thing for our society,
(14:43):
and the square helps with that.The square keeps things squared away, so
that way we have a square lineon where we know the divide is,
or where the divide should be inour mind if this is too much and
this is not enough, And thesquare helps me align with temperance in that
regard. When I think about thecompasses, I do kind of think about
(15:03):
that one with temperance a lot aswell. But of course it has its
play in all things right, likeit definitely works with justice as well.
You think about you're the center ofthe compass sometimes and you know what is
within your sphere to help control andinfluence, and we want to be righteous
in that regard, and we wantto be able to help people in justice
(15:26):
as a huge benefactor in that regard, and justice is the principle you rely
on and in that regard. Sothere really is so much fluidity in these
ideas. Yeah, and death issuch a big part. I know this
sounds really weird to say, butit's such a big part of stoicism.
It is it's uncomfortable to talk aboutit because nobody wants it's again that date
(15:52):
that's already been predetermined for us andhow it's going to happen already been set
certainly, and in freemasonry we alsotalk about that in the same way,
which I feel is one of thoselike when I say it's uncomfortable, it's
like when you're trying to have aconversation with somebody about freemasonry or stoicism and
you're like, oh, and Nina, I don't want to say this,
but it comes out sound in thisway like we really don't fear death.
(16:15):
What what do you guys like crazy? You know, no, No,
we just we understand that it's notthe end. We specifically in freemasonry,
we believe in the immortality of thesoul that it continues to go on.
Yes, in Stoicism, it's kindof a different way of how it's approached.
I remember Marcus a really is talkingabout it, and to me this
(16:36):
was beautiful, like a chef's kisswhere he compares life to the leaves falling
from trees and returning to the earth. Oh man, I'm glad you touched
on momental moor, which for thelisteners if they don't happen to be a
proficient land, which I certainly amnot, is meditation on death, mortality,
momentumory. And I'm more faughty beingthe love of fate right, Like,
(16:57):
this imagery is so powerful. Thequote I came up with with the
sword hanging over your head that comesfrom the daily stoke and meditations as well.
Like this imagery has been absolutely integralfor a lot of things I do
outside of freemasonry as well. SoI really I think a lot of people
get this whole like perception of deaththing wrong in that regard, Like if
(17:21):
you imagine instead that like a lotof people think when they live their life,
they're born and then as soon asthey're born, death is free from
them, like they don't have deathand then when they die, death shows
up in life is not there?Right? But I think through the stoke
lens, this is the wrong wayto think about it. You should truly
think about it as you're born andthen without anxiety, but actually, like
(17:44):
some calm comfort, you actually walkwith death throughout your whole life. The
sword hangs over your head and youdon't know when it's going to drop.
And hence this momentum where you sitdown and you recognize like wow, like
I could leave this life at anymoment, which is an their stoic phrase.
You know, be prepared to leavethis life at any moment. And
if that sort is consistently hanging overyour head, I think a lot of
(18:07):
people, especially in today's society,might feel like anxious or scared about that,
and they might become frenzied in theiractions. But the stoic perspective and
lens is that if that sort hangsover you, you should be consistently reminded
to live a virtuous and good lifeand actually die well in that regard,
like you don't want to die andthen think wow, like if you could
(18:30):
look back on your day like wow, I really blew and wasted a lot
of my day. I didn't likespend time on the things I need to
do. Are the things I knowI need to do through your meditation of
death. Right, So if youthink about momental moor and you think about
that sort of hanging over your head, and you realize, wow, I
(18:51):
am actually free from the coil ofdeath because now I'm empowered to live a
virtuous life because who knows what thenext breath could bring me in that regard.
So that's my perspective on it atthe very least. And then the
beautiful imagery of it, like havinglived in Upstate New York and one of
the most beautiful times of the yearis our fall, our autumn, when
(19:12):
you see all the foliage and thetrees and the changing of the colors,
and you're like, what's happening scientifically, which can be explained. This tree
is slowly dying and there's beauty anddeath, and then it falls to the
ground only for those leaves to becomefertilizer so that the tree can continue to
(19:32):
live during the harshness of winter andprovide new seeds new opportunities for growth again
in the spring. And when youweave that concept into like death and it
touches each of us at different partsin our lives and has completely different meaning.
Like now, as a man inhis mid four I'm forty five,
I look to my dad, whois it's common he's at that age where
(19:56):
he's losing a lot of friends toold age or chronic disease or whatever age.
It happens like the candle burns out, so to speak. But I've
also had you know, close friendsor people that you see on the news
that just pass away at at sucha young age, and you're like,
wow, it's it's just so sad. And I think, as a freemason,
(20:18):
why I say I don't fear death. It's not like I'm welcoming it
in any aspect. But I understandthat I've built my symbolic temple I've had,
I have my working tools. Ihave a purpose and a task on
a daily basis that I try todeliver to improve the lives of other people
that are in my circle and mysphere, and try to leave this world
(20:42):
a better place than how I foundit. All those wonderful imagery things,
and as you had said, andI don't even I won't add anything to
how you outlined it with the Stoics. But that's where there's again the parallel
between our great fraternity of this ancientand gentle craft and the words that were
coming from these men centuries ago andhow they still are relevant and relate to
(21:08):
what's happening today. Is that again, you may think that your life,
you're living in a unique time andyou have unique challenges and stresses. Dude,
life is like a Google search.I could google it and we could
find other examples of people who inthis world, the numbers, the math,
(21:29):
it's too big to just think thatyou're just the sole little individual thing.
And that's basically a combination of whatstoicism is telling you is that it's
the experiences. Life is your experiencesof the moments you share with others that
you can continue to share with thosethat are going to come after you.
Yeah, sincerely, Like Ryan Holidaymentions, this thing that always gives me
(21:52):
so much positive energy when I lookout on my day, which is like
again this recognition that life is cyclical, like even though death hangs over us,
like you live and you die,this is just natural, right.
And the Stoics really again, theyhave their they have their base actually in
cynicism. So the yeah, createsof Thebes, right, I believe that's
(22:17):
cynicism. So he was a veryfamous cynic of the time. The founder
of Stoicism learned cynicism from creates ofThebes and actually then made that into Stoicism,
and it's transferred all the way downthe lineage to us. Right,
and Zeno learned from creates of Thebesthat you need to live in accordance with
(22:37):
nature, and death is just anatural part of the world we live in
in that regard. And the thingthat I was attempting to allude to with
Ryan is that he mentions that thosewho pick up the torch of this way
of living are just one in aline and series of people and this tradition
(23:00):
and lineage of people who are tryingto live their life in this virtuous manner.
So you're part of that cycle inthat regard of people who are trying
to live in accordance with nature andare picking up the torch and this heritage,
maybe not through blood, but throughthe way of thinking in the way
of being, as these Stoics havedone for literally thousands of years. So
(23:21):
again the parallel here would be masonry, the way I describe it to people
is it's like a code of howwe decide to live our lives. And
we're not saying that living to bea good and virtuous person only Masons have
the answers to that. No,there's other people, Yeah, the other
religions and cultures and traditions that alsohave seen that there is a path to
(23:45):
get here. And we understand thatit's not something that everybody can do.
So it's not our job to tryto reach and bring people up. It's
just our job to do what webelieve we should be doing it and allowing
for that literal light to be openfor others to be exposed, to discover
and then decide on their own ifthey're going to live through this. So
(24:10):
as you're saying as well, likefreemasonry is all about the actions that we
display are what influence other people.So now, if we take it to
a real simple setting, would bewhen you're sitting in your next you know,
a business meeting at work, orjust even for brothers, you're sitting
in a meeting at lodge, oryou're sitting around the table with your family
(24:30):
at dinner and somebody proposes an ideaor ask a question that's outlandish, stupid,
silly, makes no sense, it'sirrelevant, and it's there's no purpose
to it. Instead of jumping downthat person's throat making a joke that would
be at their expense, taking thatstep back is the stoic approach and also
(24:52):
should be the Masonic approach of Okay, I understand my words have meaning,
actions have mean. What can Isay or what can I do? Or
should I just do nothing and letit pass? And sometimes that's the answer
as well. So I feel likeyou and I we could talk for days
and hours, and I love that, But we're coming close to our time
(25:15):
here on this episode of the podcast, and I really hope that during our
discussion Franklin and I have brought lightto the practice of stoicism again. We're
going to share some links in thenotes for this episode on resources that you
can use, from podcasts to readingmaterials or even email newsletters you can sign
up for. I just want toleave one little takeaway here about the stoic
(25:37):
approach, and it doesn't really advocatefor suppressing our feelings or emotions, but
rather it emphasizes understanding and managing themin a rational and constructive manner. So
with that side note, when youhear the term stoic versus when you heard
it early on in your life,what does it mean to you now stoicism.
(26:02):
I'm so glad you asked that question. This is probably the most important
conversation that can be had surrounding thephilosophy. And I'm going to make myself
a bit of a fool here,but I don't remember where I heard this
from, whether this was from RyanHolliday or whether this was from I think,
actually now that I remember, Ibelieve it was from the Stoic Coffee
(26:22):
break. But they talk about thedifference between lowercase S stoicism and uppercase as
stoicism, And what I and Ibelieve most of our civilization think of as
being Stoic and stoicism is lowercase S. So for you know English, of
course, the lowercase that's the smaller, right, so lowercase asset. That
(26:45):
is the cultural imagery we have inour mind of the person who can sit
there and suppress their emotions and becompletely unchanged by outside influences. There are
people who have now actual dispositions tothat, but that is not stoicism.
Stoicism the philosophy is capital s andas I've begun to understand it now,
(27:08):
it's what we've talked about, right, It's about noticing your emotions and how
they make you feel. And you'remore than allowed and accepted to feel these
things and begin to understand why,but you just don't allow them to control
your make your actions for you.You simply just meditate on them, hopefully,
be mindful and recognize why you feelthe way you feel, and then
(27:32):
you make conscious, logical and rationalaction based on that, as opposed to
the lowercase s, which would bealmost sometimes unhealthy, which is just like
not allowing yourself to feel those emotionsand kind of play off in your mind
that there is maybe nothing bad goingon and you're being irrational in that regard.
So I would highly highly recommend,of course, if you're going to
(27:55):
take the stoke approach, like feelingyour emotions and don't feel like you can't
feel them, just don't allow themto make your actions for me. This
has been the Craftsman Online Podcasts Again, big thanks. I feel you know
it's so funny. I know youand I can see you on the screen.
I wish we could share that withthe listeners. But for such a
(28:15):
young guy, he is so wise. Our guest brother, Franklin Rings,
thanks again for coming on. Brother. It's an honor and a pleasure.
Thank you, Thank you, brother, Our Sea. A reminder that you
can listen to future episodes of theCraftsman Online podcast early and ad free with
our subscriber offer. Get the linkto start your seven day free trial and
the notes for this episode. Untilnext time, let peace and harmony prevail.
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