November 3, 2025 • 25 mins
For years, we have done activities with infants and toddlers that were pushed down from what older children are ready to do. It is time we advocate for infants, toddlers, and the staff who work with them by insisting that our activities and interactions are developmentally appropriate for this age group. Join Cindy and Alison for a discussion about what we've done and what is actually how we should work with infants and toddlers.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to How Preschool Teachers Do It.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Cindy, I'm Alison, and we have a combined fifty
five years of experience working with children, families, and experts
in early education.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We are not random influence.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
No, we are not. Whether you are new or have
been our podcast peeps since twenty eighteen, we are thrilled
you found us. Hi, preschool peeps, high peeps. We usually
get an announcement when we start recording, and it didn't happening. Yeah,
(00:35):
I'm just going to assume yes, because it was on
the wrong speaker. This is like behind the scenes, but
not behind the scenes, you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
We have no idea what we're do. We have the time, people.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
It's the truth. It's the sad but honest truth.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
All right.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I just switched the setting, but we're recording regardless no
matter how you okay, oh boy, yeah it's Monday. I
guess Yeah, it's Monday. Welcome back, preschool peeps, so we
hope are hearing us. We are going to start this
episode as we have with shouting out the different places
(01:15):
where there are people listening to us. You know, I
feel like it makes people realize the universality of.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
What we do universality, thank you. I was thinking the
word scope.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I thought universality, the universality of what we do, and
then desire for knowledge and for discussion about it and
for finding people who do what we do across the
world and the country.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I know, it amazes us when we see countries across
the world, so like, that's cool. Today we're shouting out
the Ukraine. Which I find amazing is that is.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
We hope you're all safe. Yes, they're in the Ukraine
listening to us or watching us on YouTube from safe spaces. Yes,
as safe as they can be, as safe as they
can be.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
And we are also shouting out the people of the
state of Washington, specifically in the town of Everett.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So interesting to me because I was just recently engaged
to do some work for an organization in the state
of Washington, which will for now be on Zoom. But
they also were talking to me about flying me out there,
so I'm kind of excited.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
That would be so cool.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, I'm kind of excited. I've been there, you know,
I've been to Washington State because I have family there,
So I'm excited not only for the adventure but also
for the potential of seeing family who I don't get
to see as often as I would like.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah, that's so.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, I'm excited. And today we're going to do something
that we sort of promised we were going to do sometimes,
which is dedicate episodes to a particular age group even
though it applies to everyone. Yes, right, we always make
sure or we try to make sure that there's little
nuggets that apply to everyone when we're talking. But today's
episode is going to focus on developmentally appropriate practice and
(02:59):
those in toddlers because people are still doing things with
them that are not developmentally appropriate for their brain development
and their stage of development. I feel like it's because
back when this all started, this whole child's care for
infants and toddlers, people didn't know what to do, so
(03:20):
they just took things that will work with older children
and brought it down to the younger children.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah. I think that's still kind of a thing. Yeah,
it is for all age groups, Like kindergarten goes down
to pre k, pre k goes down to infant toddler,
and you think that's what you need to do to
prepare them. I think I don't. I don't know what
people we still do that push down, trickles down like that.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yes, we still do that push down. And I think
it's so for infants and toddlers in particular, so hard
for them to cope with, so hard for the staff
to cope with. And so we're hoping that today's episode
releases you from some myths about what you're supposed to
be doing with infants and toddlers. But we have to
start the conversation because we said it's about developmentally appropriate
(04:04):
practice and what research shows by talking about some of
the resources that we use for the information we're giving
about this, because what we're going to say, I anticipate
that what we're going to say is something where people
are going to be like, wait a minute, are you serious.
It doesn't say I have to do that. So when
we're talking about what it says we should and should
(04:25):
not do in spaces with infants and toddlers, we're referring
to research based information, like from those people who wrote
the environmental rating scales. The Infant Toddler Environmental Rating Scale
is a tool that is widely used to rate the
physical environment and the interactions that happen within that physical environment.
(04:46):
When early childhood professionals are working with children in that
infant and toddler age group. And when I say widely used,
I mean by practically every state's quality rating system. They
use the Infant Toddler Ratings Scale environmental rating scale for
children in that age group under the age of three.
We're talking about under the age of three to be clear,
(05:07):
children ages three to five years old they use a
different environmental rating scale called the Early Childhood Environmental Rating Scale.
But today I think we're going to focus a bit.
The Infant Toddler Scale is affectionately called ITTERS. It does
stand for Infant Toddler Environmental Rating Scale. We are on
the third version of it and ITTERS is one of
(05:28):
the tools. Another tool that we use to understand the
environment for very young children is the Creative Curriculum. Because
the Creative Curriculum was started by someone who was an
expert in room arrangement, and as it developed and grew
since the nineteen eighties, they have added lots of information
(05:49):
about what research shows is appropriate for the development of
infants and toddlers. And of course we use sources like
zero to three. You can go to zero to three
and find information about infants and toddlers there up to
the age of three and beyond. They have some articles
and things that go beyond. And the National Association for
(06:10):
the Education of Young Children otherwise known as NASY, and
it is NACY that owns the phrase developmentally appropriate practice.
It is their phrase. They're the ones who came up
with it, They're the ones who promote it and use it.
And in the briefest description of developmentally appropriate practice, NACY
teaches that in developmentally appropriate environments, we see joyful, engaging,
(06:37):
and play based activities with young children that focus on
them as individuals with individual linguistic needs, language needs, with
individual cultures, backgrounds, and learning needs. So the definition of
(07:00):
developmentally appropriate practice, which in the title this episode is DAP.
That's how we talk about it. Yeah, the definition of DAP.
We really like acronyms. In earlier it ours DAT.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
We have a whole episode on acronyms we do.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
You can go back and find it. But the definition
of DAP tells us that what we do must be
appropriate to the children we're serving and in accordance with
their development, their brain development. I facilitate sessions for infant
and toddler staff pretty frequently, right, pretty frequently, And there
(07:35):
are certain things I say to them that I realized
in so many of these sessions and so many other
interactions that I have, that people are like, wait a minute,
it doesn't say I have to do that with this
age group. Why am I trying to do this? And
I think it really is just that push down of
what we thought children need to do in a place
called school. Yes, and I think it is people not
(07:56):
understanding the children's development. So here we are. We're going
to point out some specific things that we release you from.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah. I feel like we're myth busting today.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think we have these episodes of like myth busting,
like way back.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
To do it again.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I love those episodes. We should bring those back. But
I feel like that's kind of what we're doing because
I think people really don't realize that they don't have
to do the things that they are doing or sometimes require.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I think they are required. Sometimes they're required. They tell
me that they do. They tell me that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I'm like, why are you required to do something that's
not developmentally appropriate?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Okay, so let's talk about this now. They're all sitting
and listening to us, going and they ever going to
get round to it. Yes, we are no, because we
talk about we're going to get.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Round to it round about okay.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
One of the things that I find registers surprised with
people that may or may not surprise our preschool peeps.
But one of the things is that nowhere in the
infant toddler Environmental Rating Scale, or in any high quality
curriculum for that age group, does it say that the infants,
in toddlers or even two year olds need to be
(09:06):
doing large group time or circle time or morning meeting
or whatever you would like to call it. There is
no mandate, no instruction, no guidance that you must do
it with infants, toddlers or two's for that matter, because
their brain development is not there yet. Because it's like
hurting cats to try and get them all to sit together.
(09:28):
Once they're mobile, once they're mobile infants, they couldn't be
less interested in what we want them to do.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
That is true, and their mobile infants, and the reason
why they're now mobile is because that's how they're learning. Yes,
by exploring their world on their own, Yes, going around,
feeling things, touching things, moving around things, seeing how the
world works through their bodies. And when you're sitting there
(09:55):
like no, you have to sit here for five minutes.
What do you like You're not allowing them to learn.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
And often it's more than five minutes. You're being very generous,
being generous. You're being very generous in that statement. Yes,
they so nowhere not there, not from like Diane trist
Or Dodge, who was an originator of the Creative Curriculum,
who is an expert in room arrangement. Nowhere have they
said this must be done with this age group. And
(10:24):
if it is a rule where you work, that is
a human made, mandated, not based on research rule. Yes,
the children in this age group, because of their brain development,
do not have impulse control. They need to move their
bodies because their muscles are growing so rapidly that the
(10:44):
body sends a message to the brain you must move.
They do not have the attention span. If you want
to know the average attention span for children you work
with at any age, just take their age or in
early childhood anyway. Just take their age and multiply it
by two. So if you're working with one in two
year olds, you've got four minutes tops. You're spending that
four minutes trying to gather them. Why are we doing that?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I feel like if you are a teacher and you
feel like your job is maybe stressful or frustrating, or
you're getting burnt out, or you are not enjoying it
as much as you feel you should, it's probably because
you are forcing these children to do things that are
against developmentally appropriate practice, right, and so like it's a
(11:32):
constant like I'm failing because they're not all sitting for
five minutes, and.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
No, you're not failing. No, this is where they're at.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
This is where they're at, and that's okay. You're supposed
to meet them where they're're at. Yes, So where they're
at is they will attend to you far more and
learn far more. Either in very small groups are.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
One to one, So this notion that we need to
gather them all it's also because of this I find
that people say, well, if I can't get them to
sit in the large grew cooperative time when they're two
or when they're one and a half, how are they
going to know to do it when they're three or four. Well,
their brains will be further developed. Ready, They're going most
(12:11):
not all, not all, but most children will be readier,
more ready, ready, more ready. Maybe most children will be
more ready by that age group. And if they're not,
if they're just not, they're still developmentally. It's still okay
when you talk to the people who write itters or
(12:31):
have written itters, people like Debbie Cryer, who's an expert
in all this. So Debbie Cryer sometimes has learning sessions,
and some of us have been able to be in
her learning sessions. And one of the things that Debbie
Cryer says is she can't stand large group time for
particularly this age group, and the only reason that she
mentions it in itters is because she knew that people
(12:53):
were doing it, so she had to put the advice
in there that says that the majority of time with
young children in the infant toddler age group is spent
in small groups or one to one, not in large groups.
So she mentions it as a don't do this, don't
spend don't do this.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
They don't do this.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It is really what the scale wants to see is
that the majority of your time with these children is
spent in small groups or one to one. And she
had to phrase it carefully that way because of the
practices that she knows goes on out there as her statement,
But she can't stand it when she sees it. Now.
I have been, and I think I may have mentioned
(13:34):
this in prior episodes. I have been in programs where
I've walked into the infant room if they've put them
all in high chairs and gathered them around so that
the teacher can recite the alphabet.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Okay, this is not what they need from us, because
that's one of the things when you said let's do
this episode. And first off, I was like, wait, people
are still doing circle time. But I was like, how
are they doing it? I'm like, are they putting them?
I imagine like those bucket you know.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Okay, but yeah, you're not supposed to have them anymore.
Did you know that? No?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, it's bad for their hips.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But I also feel like that's how I imagine it
because when I was working in childcare where there was
still infant rooms. I'm in a school now that doesn't
have an infant room. Those were still existing and people
would put five six children in there to read a
book or like sing songs, and these kids are.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Like just climbing to get out.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Of this thing. They want to be on the floor exploring.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I know in our state it is the it is
growing j kids. The quality rating system that goes to
programs and says you can't have these bucket seats. I
don't know if licensing is. I don't know what they
do where you're all listening. But the reason where we
are why they're saying get rid of the bucket seats,
it's because it's bad for their hips to be hanging
in a bucket.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Seat like that in there. Yeah, and if you're doing
circle time in those bucket seats for fifteen minutes.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
No, their attention span is like two to four minutes.
It's not worth trying to herd them like cats. All
it does is make the adults more frustrated, less patient
with the children. It's not productive. I'm going to also
propose to you that it's not productive for read alouds
to try and gather all the children in this age
group to sit and attend to your book. So here's
(15:12):
what I always tell people. I know you may want
to start the day sort of on the same foot
with the children, So sing a song, maybe the same
song every day, like your welcome song, so that it's
an auditory signal to the children that our day is
officially starting together. Or some sort of welcome song, some
(15:33):
song from your curriculum that you sing every day to
start the day. Whoever comes over while you're singing to
sing and dance with you. By the way, you're not
trying to get them to sit. You're going to sing
and dance with them or move around with them, and
whoever comes over great, and whoever doesn't that's fine too.
Same thing with the read alouds in this age group.
You can offer them a book. I remember sitting with
(15:56):
toddlers long ago when I was a toddler teacher. I
remember grabbing book and saying something like, I'm gonna read
this book. Anybody want to listen, And whoever came over,
that's who I read it to. That was it. Your
days will be so much less stressful if we let
this control go and let the children do what they do,
(16:17):
which is go play round the room, and then we
circulate the room, adding to their knowledge, skills, and ability.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
There's also this notion of like say you say, hey,
I'm gonna gather here on the rug and I'm going
to sing our welcome song, and little Johnny's over here
hanging out in blocks, but he's singing the song. Maybe
walking out, and there's this notion of like, Johnny's not
paying attention because he's singing the song way over there,
and that's not true. Even like, if you go to
(16:43):
any workshop for adults and there's just adults, there's gonna
be some woman there knitting, and you're like, she's knitting
wall while we're learning. No, because she needs to move
while it doesn't mean she's not paying attention. The same
thing with Johnny. Just because he's in blocks buildings singing
the song over there does not mean he's not joining
the group. He's just joining the group in.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
His way as a teacher of adults. So you know,
as a teacher of adults, it is true that it
is nearly impossible to gather all the adults to attend
in the same way, but they're still attending.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Like I remember going to one and I remember sitting
there thinking like, wow, this woman knitted an entire scarf.
I mean, it was amazing. That doesn't mean And I
was young, very young at the time. I think I
was still in college, and I was like, wow, that's
so rude to not paying attention to the speaker. And
then I realized, like, no, she needs to move her
hands for her brain to work right. And then I
kind of use that example in class of like, Okay,
(17:44):
just because little Sally is moving around during meeting time,
doesn't mean she's not paying attention. Just because Johnny's still
playing blocks while singing your song doesn't mean he's not
engaging with the song or he's just doing it in
his own way, because that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
And then they have to do things in their own
way throughout the day because they're so young and they're there,
they're becoming more independent, and we have to value that
independence by allowing them to use it in safe ways,
but allowing them to use it, and then we circulate
the room helping to add to their knowledge in this
age group. Here's another thing. In this age group, I'm
(18:23):
not going to have a dedicated small group time on
my schedule that's for three to five year olds because
three to five year olds are more able to handle
the instruction of we're going to divide into small groups
and now you're going to do a teacher led time
of day in this age group. Instead of bringing them
to us, the infants and toddlers, we go to them.
So you see, maybe you see a couple of infants
(18:46):
or to infants. You may have to bring things to
them until they're mobile, but mobile infants and toddlers maybe
see a few of them go over to pick up blocks.
You pick yourself up and go over to the blocks
and count the blocks with them. I don't say, hey,
come over here, we're gonna practice counting. Right, There's a
difference between going come over to me, we'll practice counting,
and I'm gonna go to whatever you're using and we'll
(19:07):
practice counting based on what you chose to use. In
this age group, it's you chose something, and I'm gonna
infuse the different areas of development and learning, the content areas.
I'm gonna infuse them into what you're doing by going
over to you and saying, I see you're holding a book,
let's let's read. Or I see you using blocks, let's
(19:28):
count them. Or I see you picked up the paint brush,
Let's see how you're holding it in your hand. I'm
not gonna go come over to me. We have to
do fine motor right right right. So that's another thing.
You don't need a dedicated small group time on a
schedule for children who fall within that infant and toddler,
even toos, they struggle with that. So I'm saying three
(19:48):
and up is where we say, now we have a
dedicated small group time. We're gonna divide you into small groups,
and you're gonna go with your group and travel with
your group, and we're gonna do intentionally led activities the teacher.
We have intention with the infants, toddlers, and twos, but
that intention goes to them. One more thing before we
end this episode that I feel I must mention because
(20:13):
I actually saw the cutest group of children doing this
the other day, but it was how the teacher facilitated it.
But just so everyone knows, they don't have to be
in a perfect line to go anywhere. I see a
lot of people struggling with this age group. First of all,
if you're lining them up and children have to wait
two minute attention span, they're not staying and waiting for
(20:34):
other children to get in the line, and they can
actually walk down the hole in a blob and get
there safely. If that's what it takes right to get
them moving into to get them where they want to
go or where you need them to go. I do sometimes, though,
see the cutest lines holding that rope, you know, the rope,
the rope, I know.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I feel like there's times where you do need to
use the rope, right, like, yes, sefty reasons. Yeah, Like
if you're outside, like if you're walking street, you know
what I mean, Like you need to make sure that
they're all together so they don't get hurt.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
If you just rope, great, if you're just walking the
hallways of your.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
School, there's no I don't see any problem with walking
down the hallway in a mop Okay, because think of
real life, like when we're we're never lined. The only
time I'm online somewhere is if I'm at like the
grocery store, right, I mean like, there's no.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I feel like we've talked about this before that adults
don't we walk in straight lines. We walk through next
to our people. Yeah, we're we walk in a blog
were walking. But I feel like that episode may not
have been aimed for infantigra people. And because this is
in the title, why I do want people to hear
that they we as adults. You're right, we don't. We
don't walk in a single file line anywhere.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Why you want a one and a half year old
to walk in a line when they like, I don't,
as long as you're all getting their safety, you have
a way of making sure you're all together. I guess,
like counting wise, making sure everybody's there. Why does it
have to be a line, I.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Don't know what the rope when they hold on to
that rope, it is just and I do think.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
There's times where it's valid that you use that.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Oh, absolutely absolutely. I was watching a group of children
walking so where their their school is right so they're
coming out of the child's care and there is a
path that they have to take. Their playground is right there,
but there is a path that they have to take,
so I guess to keep them moving on the path,
the adults decided we're going to use the rope for this.
They were all holding onto their shape on the rope.
(22:34):
They were all there were different shapes on it, they
were all there wasn't about a battle at all. They
were used to doing this, and it was just the
cutest line of tiny, tiny little people because they were
just you could just tell that they were not even
they were not even too, they.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Were they were little and.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
They were just walking along there in such an adorable way.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So no, they don't have to be in the perfect line.
And if you are thinking I do need to keep
them safe, keep them in a line. Please use that
rope that they can hold on to because it still
gives them a feeling of autonomy once you teach them
how to use it. And my advice is, teach them
how to use it when you're not going anywhere. We're
gonna walk around our classroom holding the rope. I've seen
too many people try to teach it in the middle
(23:17):
of a busy sidewalk.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Not the time.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
No, no practice with them in the beginning when you're
first going to use it, whether it's the beginning of
a school year or you're introducing a new rope. Practice
with them. I don't love the ones that children get
tied into, though those are not as safe. I feel
like if they go down, it's like dominoes. It's like
dominoes if they go down. I like the ones where
they hold on to it. Yeah, all right, I hope
(23:41):
this has given you some food for thought. I know
some of the people who are listening to this right
now are still back on Wait. I don't have to
do circle time or large group time or morning meeting
with these kids, like, what are these two women saying?
If you want information from us related to this, I'm
going to ask you to do something. You can go
to our website Howpreschool Teachers Doit dot com and you
(24:02):
can either post on our forum, which we would love.
We have the spaces by Wix app on our phones
and we see that you've posted, or you can send
us a message through the contact form on there and
we will be happy to help you out. You can
also go to Facebook and find our group How Preschool
Teachers Do It podcast and send us a message there.
(24:23):
So either way, website Facebook, if you're on it, you
know whatever, and we hope to hear from you. You
can also Allison's gonna move her head and I'm gonna
move my head. Look we're shifting. You can also go
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while you're there, you know, take a peek at us.
But in the meantime, if you scan the QR code
(24:46):
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On the video there is a QR code right now
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High Hello is where our sort of card. It's like
a business card, sort of a digital card. We'll call
it a digital card with with links to all.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Of our stuff, dating ourselves by calling it a business card.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
I think so so so there are links to all
of our stuff there, all right, preschool peeps, We will
catch you next time on the podcast
Welcome to How Preschool Teachers Do It.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm Cindy, I'm Alison, and we have a combined fifty
five years of experience working with children, families, and experts
in early education.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
We are not random influence.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
No, we are not. Whether you are new or have
been our podcast peeps since twenty eighteen, we are thrilled
you found us. Hi, preschool peeps, high peeps. We usually
get an announcement when we start recording, and it didn't happening. Yeah,
(00:35):
I'm just going to assume yes, because it was on
the wrong speaker. This is like behind the scenes, but
not behind the scenes, you know whatever.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
We have no idea what we're do. We have the time, people.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
It's the truth. It's the sad but honest truth.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
All right.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I just switched the setting, but we're recording regardless no
matter how you okay, oh boy, yeah it's Monday. I
guess Yeah, it's Monday. Welcome back, preschool peeps, so we
hope are hearing us. We are going to start this
episode as we have with shouting out the different places
(01:15):
where there are people listening to us. You know, I
feel like it makes people realize the universality of.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
What we do universality, thank you. I was thinking the
word scope.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
I thought universality, the universality of what we do, and
then desire for knowledge and for discussion about it and
for finding people who do what we do across the
world and the country.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
I know, it amazes us when we see countries across
the world, so like, that's cool. Today we're shouting out
the Ukraine. Which I find amazing is that is.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
We hope you're all safe. Yes, they're in the Ukraine
listening to us or watching us on YouTube from safe spaces. Yes,
as safe as they can be, as safe as they
can be.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
And we are also shouting out the people of the
state of Washington, specifically in the town of Everett.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So interesting to me because I was just recently engaged
to do some work for an organization in the state
of Washington, which will for now be on Zoom. But
they also were talking to me about flying me out there,
so I'm kind of excited.
Speaker 1 (02:23):
That would be so cool.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, I'm kind of excited. I've been there, you know,
I've been to Washington State because I have family there,
So I'm excited not only for the adventure but also
for the potential of seeing family who I don't get
to see as often as I would like.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Yeah, that's so.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, I'm excited. And today we're going to do something
that we sort of promised we were going to do sometimes,
which is dedicate episodes to a particular age group even
though it applies to everyone. Yes, right, we always make
sure or we try to make sure that there's little
nuggets that apply to everyone when we're talking. But today's
episode is going to focus on developmentally appropriate practice and
(02:59):
those in toddlers because people are still doing things with
them that are not developmentally appropriate for their brain development
and their stage of development. I feel like it's because
back when this all started, this whole child's care for
infants and toddlers, people didn't know what to do, so
(03:20):
they just took things that will work with older children
and brought it down to the younger children.
Speaker 1 (03:24):
Yeah. I think that's still kind of a thing. Yeah,
it is for all age groups, Like kindergarten goes down
to pre k, pre k goes down to infant toddler,
and you think that's what you need to do to
prepare them. I think I don't. I don't know what
people we still do that push down, trickles down like that.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Yes, we still do that push down. And I think
it's so for infants and toddlers in particular, so hard
for them to cope with, so hard for the staff
to cope with. And so we're hoping that today's episode
releases you from some myths about what you're supposed to
be doing with infants and toddlers. But we have to
start the conversation because we said it's about developmentally appropriate
(04:04):
practice and what research shows by talking about some of
the resources that we use for the information we're giving
about this, because what we're going to say, I anticipate
that what we're going to say is something where people
are going to be like, wait a minute, are you serious.
It doesn't say I have to do that. So when
we're talking about what it says we should and should
(04:25):
not do in spaces with infants and toddlers, we're referring
to research based information, like from those people who wrote
the environmental rating scales. The Infant Toddler Environmental Rating Scale
is a tool that is widely used to rate the
physical environment and the interactions that happen within that physical environment.
(04:46):
When early childhood professionals are working with children in that
infant and toddler age group. And when I say widely used,
I mean by practically every state's quality rating system. They
use the Infant Toddler Ratings Scale environmental rating scale for
children in that age group under the age of three.
We're talking about under the age of three to be clear,
(05:07):
children ages three to five years old they use a
different environmental rating scale called the Early Childhood Environmental Rating Scale.
But today I think we're going to focus a bit.
The Infant Toddler Scale is affectionately called ITTERS. It does
stand for Infant Toddler Environmental Rating Scale. We are on
the third version of it and ITTERS is one of
(05:28):
the tools. Another tool that we use to understand the
environment for very young children is the Creative Curriculum. Because
the Creative Curriculum was started by someone who was an
expert in room arrangement, and as it developed and grew
since the nineteen eighties, they have added lots of information
(05:49):
about what research shows is appropriate for the development of
infants and toddlers. And of course we use sources like
zero to three. You can go to zero to three
and find information about infants and toddlers there up to
the age of three and beyond. They have some articles
and things that go beyond. And the National Association for
(06:10):
the Education of Young Children otherwise known as NASY, and
it is NACY that owns the phrase developmentally appropriate practice.
It is their phrase. They're the ones who came up
with it, They're the ones who promote it and use it.
And in the briefest description of developmentally appropriate practice, NACY
teaches that in developmentally appropriate environments, we see joyful, engaging,
(06:37):
and play based activities with young children that focus on
them as individuals with individual linguistic needs, language needs, with
individual cultures, backgrounds, and learning needs. So the definition of
(07:00):
developmentally appropriate practice, which in the title this episode is DAP.
That's how we talk about it. Yeah, the definition of DAP.
We really like acronyms. In earlier it ours DAT.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
We have a whole episode on acronyms we do.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
You can go back and find it. But the definition
of DAP tells us that what we do must be
appropriate to the children we're serving and in accordance with
their development, their brain development. I facilitate sessions for infant
and toddler staff pretty frequently, right, pretty frequently, And there
(07:35):
are certain things I say to them that I realized
in so many of these sessions and so many other
interactions that I have, that people are like, wait a minute,
it doesn't say I have to do that with this
age group. Why am I trying to do this? And
I think it really is just that push down of
what we thought children need to do in a place
called school. Yes, and I think it is people not
(07:56):
understanding the children's development. So here we are. We're going
to point out some specific things that we release you from.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yeah. I feel like we're myth busting today.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
I think we have these episodes of like myth busting,
like way back.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
To do it again.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I love those episodes. We should bring those back. But
I feel like that's kind of what we're doing because
I think people really don't realize that they don't have
to do the things that they are doing or sometimes require.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
I think they are required. Sometimes they're required. They tell
me that they do. They tell me that.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I'm like, why are you required to do something that's
not developmentally appropriate?
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Okay, so let's talk about this now. They're all sitting
and listening to us, going and they ever going to
get round to it. Yes, we are no, because we
talk about we're going to get.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Round to it round about okay.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
One of the things that I find registers surprised with
people that may or may not surprise our preschool peeps.
But one of the things is that nowhere in the
infant toddler Environmental Rating Scale, or in any high quality
curriculum for that age group, does it say that the infants,
in toddlers or even two year olds need to be
(09:06):
doing large group time or circle time or morning meeting
or whatever you would like to call it. There is
no mandate, no instruction, no guidance that you must do
it with infants, toddlers or two's for that matter, because
their brain development is not there yet. Because it's like
hurting cats to try and get them all to sit together.
(09:28):
Once they're mobile, once they're mobile infants, they couldn't be
less interested in what we want them to do.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
That is true, and their mobile infants, and the reason
why they're now mobile is because that's how they're learning. Yes,
by exploring their world on their own, Yes, going around,
feeling things, touching things, moving around things, seeing how the
world works through their bodies. And when you're sitting there
(09:55):
like no, you have to sit here for five minutes.
What do you like You're not allowing them to learn.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
And often it's more than five minutes. You're being very generous,
being generous. You're being very generous in that statement. Yes,
they so nowhere not there, not from like Diane trist
Or Dodge, who was an originator of the Creative Curriculum,
who is an expert in room arrangement. Nowhere have they
said this must be done with this age group. And
(10:24):
if it is a rule where you work, that is
a human made, mandated, not based on research rule. Yes,
the children in this age group, because of their brain development,
do not have impulse control. They need to move their
bodies because their muscles are growing so rapidly that the
(10:44):
body sends a message to the brain you must move.
They do not have the attention span. If you want
to know the average attention span for children you work
with at any age, just take their age or in
early childhood anyway. Just take their age and multiply it
by two. So if you're working with one in two
year olds, you've got four minutes tops. You're spending that
four minutes trying to gather them. Why are we doing that?
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I feel like if you are a teacher and you
feel like your job is maybe stressful or frustrating, or
you're getting burnt out, or you are not enjoying it
as much as you feel you should, it's probably because
you are forcing these children to do things that are
against developmentally appropriate practice, right, and so like it's a
(11:32):
constant like I'm failing because they're not all sitting for
five minutes, and.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
No, you're not failing. No, this is where they're at.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
This is where they're at, and that's okay. You're supposed
to meet them where they're're at. Yes, So where they're
at is they will attend to you far more and
learn far more. Either in very small groups are.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
One to one, So this notion that we need to
gather them all it's also because of this I find
that people say, well, if I can't get them to
sit in the large grew cooperative time when they're two
or when they're one and a half, how are they
going to know to do it when they're three or four. Well,
their brains will be further developed. Ready, They're going most
(12:11):
not all, not all, but most children will be readier,
more ready, ready, more ready. Maybe most children will be
more ready by that age group. And if they're not,
if they're just not, they're still developmentally. It's still okay
when you talk to the people who write itters or
(12:31):
have written itters, people like Debbie Cryer, who's an expert
in all this. So Debbie Cryer sometimes has learning sessions,
and some of us have been able to be in
her learning sessions. And one of the things that Debbie
Cryer says is she can't stand large group time for
particularly this age group, and the only reason that she
mentions it in itters is because she knew that people
(12:53):
were doing it, so she had to put the advice
in there that says that the majority of time with
young children in the infant toddler age group is spent
in small groups or one to one, not in large groups.
So she mentions it as a don't do this, don't
spend don't do this.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
They don't do this.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
It is really what the scale wants to see is
that the majority of your time with these children is
spent in small groups or one to one. And she
had to phrase it carefully that way because of the
practices that she knows goes on out there as her statement,
But she can't stand it when she sees it. Now.
I have been, and I think I may have mentioned
(13:34):
this in prior episodes. I have been in programs where
I've walked into the infant room if they've put them
all in high chairs and gathered them around so that
the teacher can recite the alphabet.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
Okay, this is not what they need from us, because
that's one of the things when you said let's do
this episode. And first off, I was like, wait, people
are still doing circle time. But I was like, how
are they doing it? I'm like, are they putting them?
I imagine like those bucket you know.
Speaker 2 (14:00):
Okay, but yeah, you're not supposed to have them anymore.
Did you know that? No?
Speaker 1 (14:03):
I didn't know.
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Yeah, it's bad for their hips.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
But I also feel like that's how I imagine it
because when I was working in childcare where there was
still infant rooms. I'm in a school now that doesn't
have an infant room. Those were still existing and people
would put five six children in there to read a
book or like sing songs, and these kids are.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Like just climbing to get out.
Speaker 1 (14:23):
Of this thing. They want to be on the floor exploring.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
I know in our state it is the it is
growing j kids. The quality rating system that goes to
programs and says you can't have these bucket seats. I
don't know if licensing is. I don't know what they
do where you're all listening. But the reason where we
are why they're saying get rid of the bucket seats,
it's because it's bad for their hips to be hanging
in a bucket.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Seat like that in there. Yeah, and if you're doing
circle time in those bucket seats for fifteen minutes.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
No, their attention span is like two to four minutes.
It's not worth trying to herd them like cats. All
it does is make the adults more frustrated, less patient
with the children. It's not productive. I'm going to also
propose to you that it's not productive for read alouds
to try and gather all the children in this age
group to sit and attend to your book. So here's
(15:12):
what I always tell people. I know you may want
to start the day sort of on the same foot
with the children, So sing a song, maybe the same
song every day, like your welcome song, so that it's
an auditory signal to the children that our day is
officially starting together. Or some sort of welcome song, some
(15:33):
song from your curriculum that you sing every day to
start the day. Whoever comes over while you're singing to
sing and dance with you. By the way, you're not
trying to get them to sit. You're going to sing
and dance with them or move around with them, and
whoever comes over great, and whoever doesn't that's fine too.
Same thing with the read alouds in this age group.
You can offer them a book. I remember sitting with
(15:56):
toddlers long ago when I was a toddler teacher. I
remember grabbing book and saying something like, I'm gonna read
this book. Anybody want to listen, And whoever came over,
that's who I read it to. That was it. Your
days will be so much less stressful if we let
this control go and let the children do what they do,
(16:17):
which is go play round the room, and then we
circulate the room, adding to their knowledge, skills, and ability.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
There's also this notion of like say you say, hey,
I'm gonna gather here on the rug and I'm going
to sing our welcome song, and little Johnny's over here
hanging out in blocks, but he's singing the song. Maybe
walking out, and there's this notion of like, Johnny's not
paying attention because he's singing the song way over there,
and that's not true. Even like, if you go to
(16:43):
any workshop for adults and there's just adults, there's gonna
be some woman there knitting, and you're like, she's knitting
wall while we're learning. No, because she needs to move
while it doesn't mean she's not paying attention. The same
thing with Johnny. Just because he's in blocks buildings singing
the song over there does not mean he's not joining
the group. He's just joining the group in.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
His way as a teacher of adults. So you know,
as a teacher of adults, it is true that it
is nearly impossible to gather all the adults to attend
in the same way, but they're still attending.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
Like I remember going to one and I remember sitting
there thinking like, wow, this woman knitted an entire scarf.
I mean, it was amazing. That doesn't mean And I
was young, very young at the time. I think I
was still in college, and I was like, wow, that's
so rude to not paying attention to the speaker. And
then I realized, like, no, she needs to move her
hands for her brain to work right. And then I
kind of use that example in class of like, Okay,
(17:44):
just because little Sally is moving around during meeting time,
doesn't mean she's not paying attention. Just because Johnny's still
playing blocks while singing your song doesn't mean he's not
engaging with the song or he's just doing it in
his own way, because that's what we do.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
And then they have to do things in their own
way throughout the day because they're so young and they're there,
they're becoming more independent, and we have to value that
independence by allowing them to use it in safe ways,
but allowing them to use it, and then we circulate
the room helping to add to their knowledge in this
age group. Here's another thing. In this age group, I'm
(18:23):
not going to have a dedicated small group time on
my schedule that's for three to five year olds because
three to five year olds are more able to handle
the instruction of we're going to divide into small groups
and now you're going to do a teacher led time
of day in this age group. Instead of bringing them
to us, the infants and toddlers, we go to them.
So you see, maybe you see a couple of infants
(18:46):
or to infants. You may have to bring things to
them until they're mobile, but mobile infants and toddlers maybe
see a few of them go over to pick up blocks.
You pick yourself up and go over to the blocks
and count the blocks with them. I don't say, hey,
come over here, we're gonna practice counting. Right, There's a
difference between going come over to me, we'll practice counting,
and I'm gonna go to whatever you're using and we'll
(19:07):
practice counting based on what you chose to use. In
this age group, it's you chose something, and I'm gonna
infuse the different areas of development and learning, the content areas.
I'm gonna infuse them into what you're doing by going
over to you and saying, I see you're holding a book,
let's let's read. Or I see you using blocks, let's
(19:28):
count them. Or I see you picked up the paint brush,
Let's see how you're holding it in your hand. I'm
not gonna go come over to me. We have to
do fine motor right right right. So that's another thing.
You don't need a dedicated small group time on a
schedule for children who fall within that infant and toddler,
even toos, they struggle with that. So I'm saying three
(19:48):
and up is where we say, now we have a
dedicated small group time. We're gonna divide you into small groups,
and you're gonna go with your group and travel with
your group, and we're gonna do intentionally led activities the teacher.
We have intention with the infants, toddlers, and twos, but
that intention goes to them. One more thing before we
end this episode that I feel I must mention because
(20:13):
I actually saw the cutest group of children doing this
the other day, but it was how the teacher facilitated it.
But just so everyone knows, they don't have to be
in a perfect line to go anywhere. I see a
lot of people struggling with this age group. First of all,
if you're lining them up and children have to wait
two minute attention span, they're not staying and waiting for
(20:34):
other children to get in the line, and they can
actually walk down the hole in a blob and get
there safely. If that's what it takes right to get
them moving into to get them where they want to
go or where you need them to go. I do sometimes, though,
see the cutest lines holding that rope, you know, the rope,
the rope, I know.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
I feel like there's times where you do need to
use the rope, right, like, yes, sefty reasons. Yeah, Like
if you're outside, like if you're walking street, you know
what I mean, Like you need to make sure that
they're all together so they don't get hurt.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
If you just rope, great, if you're just walking the
hallways of your.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
School, there's no I don't see any problem with walking
down the hallway in a mop Okay, because think of
real life, like when we're we're never lined. The only
time I'm online somewhere is if I'm at like the
grocery store, right, I mean like, there's no.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
I feel like we've talked about this before that adults
don't we walk in straight lines. We walk through next
to our people. Yeah, we're we walk in a blog
were walking. But I feel like that episode may not
have been aimed for infantigra people. And because this is
in the title, why I do want people to hear
that they we as adults. You're right, we don't. We
don't walk in a single file line anywhere.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
Why you want a one and a half year old
to walk in a line when they like, I don't,
as long as you're all getting their safety, you have
a way of making sure you're all together. I guess,
like counting wise, making sure everybody's there. Why does it
have to be a line, I.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
Don't know what the rope when they hold on to
that rope, it is just and I do think.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
There's times where it's valid that you use that.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
Oh, absolutely absolutely. I was watching a group of children
walking so where their their school is right so they're
coming out of the child's care and there is a
path that they have to take. Their playground is right there,
but there is a path that they have to take,
so I guess to keep them moving on the path,
the adults decided we're going to use the rope for this.
They were all holding onto their shape on the rope.
(22:34):
They were all there were different shapes on it, they
were all there wasn't about a battle at all. They
were used to doing this, and it was just the
cutest line of tiny, tiny little people because they were
just you could just tell that they were not even
they were not even too, they.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
Were they were little and.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
They were just walking along there in such an adorable way.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
So no, they don't have to be in the perfect line.
And if you are thinking I do need to keep
them safe, keep them in a line. Please use that
rope that they can hold on to because it still
gives them a feeling of autonomy once you teach them
how to use it. And my advice is, teach them
how to use it when you're not going anywhere. We're
gonna walk around our classroom holding the rope. I've seen
too many people try to teach it in the middle
(23:17):
of a busy sidewalk.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Not the time.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
No, no practice with them in the beginning when you're
first going to use it, whether it's the beginning of
a school year or you're introducing a new rope. Practice
with them. I don't love the ones that children get
tied into, though those are not as safe. I feel
like if they go down, it's like dominoes. It's like
dominoes if they go down. I like the ones where
they hold on to it. Yeah, all right, I hope
(23:41):
this has given you some food for thought. I know
some of the people who are listening to this right
now are still back on Wait. I don't have to
do circle time or large group time or morning meeting
with these kids, like, what are these two women saying?
If you want information from us related to this, I'm
going to ask you to do something. You can go
to our website Howpreschool Teachers Doit dot com and you
(24:02):
can either post on our forum, which we would love.
We have the spaces by Wix app on our phones
and we see that you've posted, or you can send
us a message through the contact form on there and
we will be happy to help you out. You can
also go to Facebook and find our group How Preschool
Teachers Do It podcast and send us a message there.
(24:23):
So either way, website Facebook, if you're on it, you
know whatever, and we hope to hear from you. You
can also Allison's gonna move her head and I'm gonna
move my head. Look we're shifting. You can also go
to YouTube and we hope that you do and you
subscribe and you like because that helps us out. And
while you're there, you know, take a peek at us.
But in the meantime, if you scan the QR code
(24:46):
that is on YouTube right now, go there, go to YouTube.
On the video there is a QR code right now
that you can hold your phone up to and it
will name either your browser or the high Hello site.
High Hello is where our sort of card. It's like
a business card, sort of a digital card. We'll call
it a digital card with with links to all.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Of our stuff, dating ourselves by calling it a business card.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
I think so so so there are links to all
of our stuff there, all right, preschool peeps, We will
catch you next time on the podcast
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