September 3, 2026 • 44 mins
In Deadly Dilemma, Anthony takes you on a journey of remembrance and reflection. Everyone has a story. Sometimes, we need a nudge to revisit our stories and confront the experiences that have shaped our lives.Anthony is not famous. He is not a celebrity, an athlete, or a politician. He's an ordinary guy with a story to tell, asking that bigger question about life. He grew up in a small town in eastern North Carolina. A stellar student, he enrolled in college, where it took him ten years to get a four-year degree. He got married, started raising a family, and embarked on a lifelong career working with college students and mentors.Anthony has battled poor self-image and lack of self-esteem all his life. His daddy told him to "Get out of the way. I can't see through muddy water" and "Don't ask me for a damn thing." Those words have haunted him as he struggled to value his own self-worth.As a college counselor, Anthony's advice to young people reflects his life experience:Friends- choose them carefully, and cultivateChoices- make them wisely, and learnConsequences- embrace them graciously, and move on."In a world where many who state their faith seem focused on 'looking' perfect, Anthony simply shares his life's highs and lows (and reflections). This book is relatable, surprising, inspiring, shocking, and believable."- Chris Arline, Guilford College '95"The 'Deadly Dilemma' is real to all of us, and I stand with you, Anthony, in the eternal street fight to live an authentic life."- Jeff Thigpen, author of On Point: Voices and Values of Young Elected Officials
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
Suicide, Faith, and the Search for Identity and Purpose. That
is the purpose of this book we're going to talk
about today. We're not going to give any major spoilers
or anything, but we're going to talk about it. I
want you guys to go out and get it. If
you're watching me, you see I have part of the
book behind me. It's a big NYC Book Award winner
(00:33):
in 2025.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I see that, too. That's great. It's on Amazon, all
the places you want to find it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
And I have an author who I want to read
part of his bio because I like the way this
is written. So we'll say his name in a second.
He's not famous. He is not a celebrity, athlete, politician,
or business tycoon.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
His is not a household name.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
He's just an ordinary guy with a story to tell.
One told him the umbrella of asking a bigger question
about life, relating to daily successes and victories. failures and disappointments,
both personal and professional. And we're going to talk about that.
And that's what this book is all about. It's a
fascinating read.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's a memoir.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So folks, sit down, get a cup of coffee or
a glass of whiskey, sit down and read this book.
Help me welcome its author, Anthony Gurley.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hi, Anthony.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Thank you so much, James. I'm humbled that you would
allow me to be a part of this journey that
you're on. I do my homework and I'm, I'm quite
honored to be a part of this, of this journey
with you.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, thank you for seeing me and seeing my work.
I appreciate that very much. I know a lot of times,
you know, people suggest, you know, you should go on
this show and that show. You should look into the
people you're going to talk about to talk to you.
You should see what they're, what they do. And I, I, I,
I appreciate your, your kind words.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Good.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I appreciate it. Well, I'm here to help. That's my,
that's my whole thing. Anyway, it's here to pass on
information for other folks out there. My, my fan base,
my followers, they need to see what's going on. Cause
I want to introduce them to this, this story, because
what you're, what you're sharing may help other people.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Um, I hope so. Um, I never intended to publish
this book. That was not my intention. Um, I turned
70 years old, James, seven years ago. And I decided
I need to tell my story for my kids and
my grandkids, you know, because they know Pappy that they
(02:43):
spent time with and they see and they don't, but
they don't know all of Pappy's story. And I decided
the children are certainly old enough. They're 45 and 50.
The grandchildren, two of them are college age and older now.
So they're old enough to, to understand reading Pappy's story.
(03:03):
And that's what I intended. So I did it. Took
me three years to put it together. I thought I
was done. I had a good friend who's made her
living as an author for a number of years, read
it just to make sure it was, oh yeah, this
is okay. This is good. And when she finished, she said, James,
she said, I think you need to rethink what you're doing.
(03:25):
I thought she was going to tell me to burn it. Oh.
And never let it see the light of day. I'm serious.
But she said, no. She said, you read part of
the bio sketch. She said, you're just a guy. You're
a middle income guy here in the heart of North Carolina.
You got a wife and kids and a mortgage and
(03:45):
a cat. She said, but you tell a story. And
there's a plumber in Dubuque, Iowa. That's a metaphor that
she used. There's a plumber in Dubuque, Iowa. that needs
to read your story. He can't relate to the NBA
Hall of Famer. He can't relate to that Wall Street tycoon,
(04:06):
but he might be able to relate to your story.
And maybe that'll help him summon the courage to confront his.
That's how I got into this mess.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So I'm exactly 20 years younger than you.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I'm 57. Keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Okay. It looks good.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Thank you. I'm trying. I'm trying.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I drink lots of water. But I have grandchildren also.
I'm Papa Jamie. And I say, you're Papa Jamie. And
I have been recently thinking about my legacy. And it's
funny because men, and why is it such a success
for you just even publishing the book?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
No, I go backwards.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Even writing the book is a success for you because
us as men, we're.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Not taught to share our feelings.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
No, we don't.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
And our generation especially not. Oh, no, not at all.
You just stay stoic. You walk it off. You shake
it off and keep it moving.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Buck up. You know? Yes. Exactly. Come on. I was like,
walk it off. Walk it off. You'll be fine. But
that's something.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
But you and I, and people as you get older,
you get the whiz and like, no, some of this
definitely does affect me.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And I probably should work it out. Absolutely. Right?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
And one way, of course, is look at it as
So was it overall, was it hard, medium, or semi-easy
to look at your past?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I've given that a lot of thought. It was very difficult.
I read something that was written about you in a
magazine or something a while back. I can't remember when
I was doing my homework. And you were quoted as
saying something about, let me make sure I get this right,
about things that happen early in your story, stay with us. Well,
(06:05):
it took me three years. I'm not a journaler, never
have been. So when I made the decision to do this,
I got to go back and reconstruct. It took me
about three years and a spreadsheet from here to yonder
to put it all together. Who, where, when, what, how,
you know, about 10% of it made its way into
(06:26):
the book.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
But after that three years and I actually started writing,
it was coming along pretty good. I did a lot
of writing professionally, not creative writing, though. Right, right. Writing manuals,
operation procedures, those kinds of things. But I got to
a place in the writing, James, where I was 11
years old and I hit a writer's block.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I could not get a word on the page, on
the screen.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
And I couldn't figure out why. And then it hit me.
11 years old is when my father walked out on us.
I was the last player cut from the seventh and
eighth grade basketball tryout team, tryouts. I cried all the
way home and met my daddy as he was walking
out with clothes over his shoulder and a suitcase in
(07:21):
his hands. And I saw him twice after that. But
I was at that point in the story. I got
in the car on a rainy day and drove to
my hometown about an hour on the other side of
Raleigh from where I live and went to the graveyard.
I never went to his funeral. Went to his graveyard,
(07:43):
stood in the rain for about an hour and a half.
Got in the car and came back home. And the
words just came. I needed to close that chapter somehow.
And once that was done, the rest of it, very therapeutic,
incredibly therapeutic. One of my high school friends, one of
(08:04):
my beta readers asked me, he said, are you sure
you want to do this? Aren't you worried about what
some of your friends might think of you? I said, bud,
if they think any less of me, that's on them.
And Amy, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I want to share this with you. I think I've
talked about it in one of my interviews, but that
whole thing about being young. So I also put out music.
And so one of my albums, I was with a producer.
His name is Pete Mills. He's worked with, like, Michael Jackson.
He's a big-time producer. And he's producing my song. And
he said, James, what do you have? I have a songbook.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I'm writing songs. I write my own songs. So I
had this one, and I titled it 1979.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And they were like, well, there's a lot of songs
from 1979. But he started reading the lyrics. And it was,
he goes, so you were 10 years old. I go, yeah,
basically when I was 10 years old. And he said,
and it was, and it was when my father walked
out on us. And so we create the song together.
The chain, the title is called lost and found. So
(09:07):
there's a song, the title, we worked on it for
six weeks. It was a six weeks. We worked on it. And,
and actually I sing. So I sang the key. I
never sang before either. But he was like, I want
you to match these lyrics because you were writing about
what you're, and he said, he remembered a couple of
times why it took so long was we actually sat
in it sometimes. We'd be in the studio. And he's like, well, James,
(09:30):
what does this mean to you? You were 10 years old.
So that really, it seems like that was a big
point for you. And I had never thought about it before.
Like you, I never really thought like, well, I guess
it was. I mean, I thought I could think about
other things later before, but like, but no, when I
was 10, I became the man of the house.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's what I remember. Take care of your mother. You
know it. Anthony, you know it, right? You know this.
Take care of your mom. You're the man of the house.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Man up.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
You're this. And then everybody in the house kind of
fell in place. Like, you're not the man of the house.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And I'm 10 years old. I'm freaking 10 years old.
I think it's like that.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So when you said that in your story, you just
telling that story hit me. Now we both said these
stories together. I'm sure we all at home have one also.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Well, and that, quite frankly, was the point of the
whole exercise, to tell the story under that umbrella that
you mentioned. Because it was my story, my story. Who cares?
But the point was to try to encourage others, particularly men,
(10:38):
quite frankly, young men and older men, to confront their stories,
reflect on them, And then think constructively about how to
learn from their story. Because they're still writing it.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
You know?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Right. You also mentioned a book. Throughout the book, there's words. Phrases.
We just said a few right now. That come through.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I always say, you know, they say, sticks and stones,
but if your brothers and sisters never hurt me. Words
can't hurt you. When you're younger, they can totally hurt you.
And like I said, stick with you. when you were
writing parts of the book where you were talking about
some serious subjects and some of the things your dad
said to you, did you relive it a little bit?
(11:26):
Or were you able to kind of look at it
now in a different lens? Like, okay, he's this man
saying stuff to me.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Well, it's very interesting, James, when I mentioned the piece
I read and you talked about things have an early
stay with you. When And I didn't realize it until
I got started this process. But there were two memories
that I have of my daddy. Very little else, because
we were never close even before he left. I was
(11:57):
the youngest of five children. I was almost seven years
younger than my older sibling. I was a mistake. I
was not meant to be. I happened. I mean, I
heard that more than once.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I'm sure. I'm sure. Right.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
But the two things I remember my daddy telling me,
and it didn't dawn on me until I got into
this process, was back in the day of black and
white TV and no remote, right? You know, I'd happen
to get between him and the television. And he'd tell me,
get out of the way. I can't see through muddy water.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
All right. So I'm muddy water. I need to be invisible.
I need to get out of the way. All right.
And then don't ever ask me for a damn thing.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Oh, I've read that before, yes.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
So when I was in the process of writing this manuscript,
and as it developed, I began to see a picture
of my life. I was a successful 30-year administrator at
a good small private college. I had a great career.
Could have still been working there if I'd wanted to,
but it was time to do something else. But I
(13:05):
never once asked for a promotion. I never once asked
for a raise. Now, I got promotions and raises, but
I never once sought that.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
I never once sought attention. I spoke in front of
crowds of hundreds of parents and did TV interviews, all
of that, but I never sought attention. And I never
asked for help.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
For a damn thing. You didn't ask for a damn thing.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And as I finished the first, I guess the final
draft of this project, I realized almost in a lamenting way,
how much more successful might I have been in some
areas that I would like to have had I had
the courage to just ask for help or to volunteer
(13:57):
to take the lead. But no, stand in the back.
Stay off camera. Now, if you look in the book,
there's a page of the cheerleader team at my college.
I have no clue how that happened. I managed to
do that. But to your point, yes, this therapeutic exercise
(14:22):
enabled me to think logically about a source of some
serious shortages in my development. But I'm just, I was,
I'm just, I'm 76 years old. I'm still, it's not
too late. I discovered through this process.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
And the thing is, that leads to the next question
I want to ask you, is that is, so after
having looked back and written stuff down, how do you
view your parents now?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
How do you view them?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Because your mother was a part of this too, obviously,
but that's all it was about. I mean, he was
a big part, but she married him.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
She had you. She was your mother.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So I just wonder, like, I see my parents differently now,
now that I look back at my life. And as
a big parent myself, I was wondering for you, through
writing this book, though, do you have a different view
of them?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I don't have much of a different view of my daddy.
I think he could have been more forthright and more
honest about what he did and why he walked out.
I gave him a chance to meet both of his grandkids.
I took each of my children to meet him when
they were less than six months old. And he never
(15:40):
made any effort to establish a relationship. And I will
never forgive him for that. That's his loss. It is.
But I'll never forgive him for that. I learned... that
my mother was very quiet. She was very diminutive. My
bedridden grandfather lived with us from the time about shortly
(16:02):
after my daddy walked out till after my freshman year
at college. And my mother was his caretaker, living on
food stamps. And she didn't show affection. But I learned
through this process She was just, she was a beaten woman.
(16:22):
I don't mean physically, but she was a very beaten
down woman. She was tired. And I love her more
than she did, than I did the day I went
off to college. I love her more than the day
she died because I have a whole new appreciation for
the struggle she went through and all of that.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
You mentioned throughout the book, self-esteem. self-esteem, self-worth. We just
talked about a little bit of this now. You do
include some heavy thoughts in here. I want people to
read them and stuff. When you chose to tell those
stories and add those in there, did you feel better
(17:07):
afterwards also?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Well, as you said at the beginning, the title of
the book was Deadly Dilemma, right behind you. And that's
exactly what What it suggests, if you think about it,
it's a deadly dilemma. And the subtitle that I just
added when I relaunched the book a few months ago,
I didn't originally publish it with the subtitle. I was
(17:33):
afraid to do that. I was afraid to put that
word on the front of the book. Deadly dilemma, suicide, faith,
and the search for identity and purpose. That was in
the relaunch about five months ago. OK, because I got
to the point where I can no longer be afraid
of that. You know, and the question that the umbrella
(17:58):
that I write about was the good times in life,
the successes, the peaks, the you know, the good days,
the hot, the happy. Does that come often enough? Is
it strong enough? Is it lasting enough to overcome what
for many can be a daily struggle? with loneliness, failure, disappointment, loss. And,
(18:22):
and we know I'm a sociologist by academic training. We
know from the data and from the news, far too
many people answer that question. No. And they make a
very bad choice.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
And so my, my mission in life now is to
find that plumber in Dubuque and make sure that, that
he is getting, finding the courage to confront his story.
But your point is well taken. That yields something you
mentioned a minute ago. When I speak to groups, I
speak to civic groups, church groups, that sort of thing.
(18:59):
After the talk, I always leave time for questions. There
are never any questions.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
None.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Because you said it. We don't talk about this stuff.
But it'll take me 30 minutes to get to my car.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Oh, how funny. I get what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Because one by one, Yes, I hear you say. I say, Mr.
Gurley or Anthony, I know what you're talking about, but
we just can't. I've got a brother or I know
I've been there. I've sat in my room alone and wondered,
but we can't talk about this stuff. Well, we have
to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And the point of the whole story, the way I
wrote it, instead of just writing the story, at the
end of you've seen it, you've seen the book, we
draw a line and change the font and reflect And
the whole, I'm actually working now on a workbook based
on reflections because it's not about my story. Right. That's
just a hook to get the attention of the readers
(19:57):
long enough to confront their stories.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
And so we're doing a chapter by chapter workbook, encouraging
sort of updating the reflections, broadening them a little bit.
And it says to the reader now, name an issue
relevant to this chapter in your life. Because I know
there's one there. And how are you reflecting on it
and learning how to enlighten your day-to-day experience?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
No, I just, I know I love that. And I
just think that I hope people who are younger, I
hope men or just, or even women who buy it
to really get more insight for stories, But for men especially,
I have a lot of male viewers and fans, I
want them to read it of any age. If you're younger,
(20:47):
maybe gain some insight now. If you're older, gain some reflection.
And like you said, it's never too late to break
the past.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Right? James, it's interesting. Again, the title is Deadly Dilemma.
I kept getting asked, well, who's your target audience? When
I first putt. I don't know. I just did what
I did. I don't know my target audience. Well, by
the time I relaunched the book five months ago, I
have a pretty good sense of the target audience. And
(21:21):
there are two primarily, and you just touched on it.
Older men, middle-aged and older, they're asking these questions in
the quiet of the day over a vodka tonic at
night or whatever. Or those high school and college young
adult age folks, you know, the second leading cause of
(21:43):
death among college students, including college athletes, is suicide.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
It is.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Second leading cause of death. They're in the prime of
their life. They've got the world by the. Yeah, they do.
And yet the second leading cause of death. And yet
they're not going to be a target audience for my book.
Because they're not going to look out. But their coaches
(22:09):
who have their attention, their counselors, their pastors, if they're
engaged in a spiritual walk, coaches, counselors, teachers, therapists, those
folks are the target audience in the sense that the
coach calls James into the office after practice and says, James,
(22:31):
look good out there. You know, conversations we've been having,
I got something I want you to read. Now, don't
tell me you can't relate to it. I want you
to read it and then let's me and you, let's
me and you talk about how this guy's revelation of
his struggle relates to what things you and I've been
talking about. And, and did we learn anything here about
(22:53):
how maybe you can, can pick up on some better choices?
And I'm, I'm getting ahead here. And my publicist guy
that helps me tells me I have to be careful
about this. But I won't tell him if you don't.
One of the quotes in the book you alluded to
a minute ago is something called friends, choices, consequences. Friends
(23:19):
choose them carefully and cultivate because they don't just grow.
You know, it's like a tomato plant. You got to
water that sucker. You got to nutrient. Friends choose them
carefully and cultivate them. It's okay to have a lot
of people in your network. Be careful about who you
invite into that inner circle. I agree. Who you're going
to call at three o'clock in the morning when you
(23:40):
need help with something, right? I agree. Secondly, choices, generally speaking,
just choices and make them wisely, not flippantly. And think
about the influence of those friends in your decision making.
But choices, make them wisely and learn because you can
make the best choice in the world and it go
(24:01):
to hell in a handbasket. It's beyond your control. You
can make a really uninformed bad choice and you get lucky.
So learn from it all. And then finally, friends' choices, consequences.
Embrace them graciously and move on. I don't care if
you just won the final four and you went nuts
(24:22):
and it's an amazing thing, a peak of your life.
Enjoy it. Embrace it. And move on.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
One of the things I really enjoyed was watching the
World Cup. and watching teams it's it was it was
there's a lot of camaraderie i mean it was like
this because competition yeah and i used to play sports
where i went in competition but their sportsmanship is what
i really enjoyed for many of the teams and like
i said the one team wins they're they're totally happy
(24:49):
oh my god they made it this is a world
stage they made it they worked hard for this but
then they would come to the other team and like
hug them shake their hands they were like talking to
each other the captains are talking to each other like
I love that. And that's kind of what you're talking about.
It's like, you know, we're off to, we're these little
spinning satellites. We're little satellites out there running around. We
should be able to come together and be able to
(25:12):
talk about our stories, share our feelings.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I mean, and it's not unmanly. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
It's just, I'm not saying you need to cry in
front of me or anything, but I just say, but
to talk honestly about, you know, what happened to me
was effed up. And what this happened is, And what
happened to you was also effed up.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And you know what?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
We should be able to talk about it how we
want to in a safe way that will help heal us.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Well, when I retired from the college, James, I worked
at a Division III school.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
So no athletic scholarships, but we had a lot of
competitive athletic teams, NCAA Division III. When I retired, I
wanted to find a way to get up close and
personal to some good big-time college sports. So I live
20 minutes from Wake Forest University.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
So I managed to get a gig with the, with
the contractor they contract with doing unarmed security. Okay. And
it took me a couple of three years to work
my way up the food chain, but now football coming
up soon. I, I, every home football game, I'll be
there in my little green, yellow shirt, right outside the
(26:22):
home team locker room. As they go onto the feet
in basketball, I'm on the floor. eight feet from the
ACC TV folks in baseball, which is my favorite.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I get to, I get to walk and meet parents
of both the home team and the visiting team. And it's,
and I get the answer. I get the opportunity to
talk about friends, choices, consequences with parents of these kids.
And one of the, and the kids occasionally, but one
of the things that I emphasize is if you think
about it and you just hit it on the head, friends, choices, consequences.
(26:58):
you got control over those two things. You've got no
control over the consequences. What you do have control over
is how you let those consequences. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Literally. I just wrote about that. Yes.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Friends and choices repeat.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
So friends, choices repeat, you know, I just wrote about that.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Literally.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You're right.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
So yeah, I did. So my blog post stays about that. Actually.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
You can't, you can't, you can't, The outcomes are their outcomes,
is whatever it is. I think it's so important to
work on just what you're putting out.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
What are you putting out?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
And I think, going back to the book itself, you're
putting out something that's constructive. It's not just a tale
of woe. It's not just like a tale of bad thing,
bad thing, bad thing. It may seem that way to
some people, just like I was talking about it. But
if you're more evolved in that, a little more in tune,
then you know that you're sharing stories and saying, please
(27:56):
relate to me.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Please relate.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's what you're saying, right? Basically.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
I'll be very honest with you. This is a little
awkward for me because I, again, I'm perfectly happy standing
in front of a crowd and giving a talk. This
is a little, this is different. So it's a little
awkward for me and I appreciate your, your patience with me, but,
but it, be sure to say this right. I know
you're a man of faith.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
And, and, one of the things that I quote towards
the end of the book, I actually quote the lyrics
to a Christian song called surely the presence of the
Lord is in this place. I can feel his mighty
power and his grace. I had to get permission from, from,
from the permission. I got permission to put it in
(28:42):
the book. But that song, that song got me the
first time I heard it. It might change my life.
And it was, A little bit before I started this journey. OK,
but but it set me on a path, I think.
And then secondly, when I was working with college kids
and then I left the college, I launched a nonprofit
(29:04):
still working with college kids for another seven years called
Motivation Ministry. And it was we took the I out
of the word motivation because there's no I in motivation. Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I got it.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
And, but it was about, but, but our tagline, our, our,
our scriptural reference that, that I beat the kids up
about the head and shoulders with it. There was between friends, choices, consequences,
and this verse, they were tired of hearing them. I
didn't care. Philippians 4, 8, whatever is true, noble, righteous, pure, lovely, admirable.
(29:39):
If anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think on these things.
I would tell these college kids, when you screw it
up and you need help, don't call your roommate. And
you're not going to call your mom and dad. Find
a mentor. If you don't already have one, you need
a mentor. And then secondly, when you get up in
the morning, how do you roll over out of your
apartment or your door? Somewhere on the wall, look over
(30:02):
and find the little poster you put on that says,
whatever is true, noble, righteous. If you start your day
with that frame of mind, after a while, it will
become second nature to you. And when you go about
the day and something just blows up, you're going to
take a deep breath. You're going to be okay. You're
(30:23):
going to reset your mind.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
People are always like, geez.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Is your servant done?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
People ask me, how are you so calm? It took
me years of getting to where I am. I used
to be a hothead when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
I'm much more calm now because I did the work,
but I had a, it takes a village to raise me.
I always tell people all the time. And I had
older male advisors. I had older female advisors. I had
spiritual advisors. I had business advisors. I mean, I had
people I could go to. That would literally give me,
if I had a piece, I need some questioning, they
(30:55):
would answer it for me, give me some advice. So
I think, I love that thing where you're saying, it's like,
just find somebody who just, I mean, who cares about
you on some level. Like, who's going to be there
for you on some level and not steer you wrong.
But who can give you some words of wisdom. Or
I said, my spiritual advisor, everything was done through the Bible,
through the word.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
They would say, read this, check that, do this, read this,
and there. My business advisor may say to a business mind,
try this, do this. So I have people, it all
worked for me. So I'm at the point now where
I'm pretty much a calm person. I mean, things happen.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
You got to walk through it anyway. You got to
walk through it. We just met.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
But I can tell you got way too much energy
to be calm.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Well, there's that too. I'm two things. I'm calm. You
want me in an emergency, but you also want me
at a party. I'm both.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
James, tomorrow I'm driving about an hour and a half
to a high school in another county down the road here.
I'm taking my former boss from Guilford College with me.
We're going to a birthday celebration for my high school
baseball coach, who is 90 years old. My high school
football coach is still alive and active, is 90 years old.
(32:15):
One of my assistant coaches who went on to become,
actually became a basketball coach at Wake Forest for a
number of years, David Odom, still alive. And I'm blessed, James,
that those three men, and there were others, others have passed,
but I'm blessed that those three men took me under
their wings from the time I was in the eighth grade.
(32:38):
all the way through high school. And we have stayed
in touch and friends over the years. Now, the reason
that's important to me is I never threw a touchdown pass.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I never pitched seven shutout innings. You know, I was,
but I wanted to be part of the team. So
I became a equipment manager. And then when I got
in high school, athletic trainer. I was on the team.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I was on the field.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
And the coaches have made it abundantly clear to me
that I was every bit as important to their work
because they didn't have to worry about is the equipment
going to be where it's supposed to be when it's
supposed to be. I had keys to the entire high
school facility except for the principal's office. They trusted me.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
You know?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
And one of the things I write about in the
book is I never felt trusted at home. But they
trusted me.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Right. And that means... I mean, the thing is, when
you pour into somebody anything, it helps.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I mean, we're all tanks of some sort, like gas tanks.
We're all water tanks. And so I think when you
pour into somebody... And give them responsibility. Give them your trust.
Give them your whatever. They always say kids do want boundaries.
(34:17):
Kids do want to know that someone cares about them
and sees them. And they want to know if they're
useful also. So you've got all of that. So you're
not on the field throwing the passes, running the plays.
but you're still a very important part. They made you
feel like an important part of the team because you
were actually. And there's a lot of things that run
a team. You know, a lot of things go on.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Running a team. And believe it or not, in the
middle of October, the second week of October, I will
go back to my hometown and there'll be somewhere between
20 and 25 members of that graduating class team. And
hopefully at least two of those three coaches will spend
the better part of a day and a half together.
(35:00):
it was a bond that none of us appreciated at
the moment. But as we all get older and our
group becomes smaller, we realize just what we had. And
you can't put a price on that. You just can't.
I won't give too much away, but when I wrote
(35:24):
the book, I didn't put a prelude in it because
I was told if you do that, And it doesn't
catch the attention, and they're not going to read the
rest of the book. And so I decided to put
a prelude in, but I didn't call it that. It
was the letter I never sent.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
And it's exactly what that suggests. And I ended that
letter saying, I'm just tired. I'm very tired. So when
I finished writing the book, my beta, and this is
relevant to what we were just talking about, My beta
readers all gave me different suggestions and so forth and
so on. But they all gave me one suggestion in common.
(36:08):
They said, you need to answer that question. Because I
didn't answer that big question that I mentioned. They said,
this is way too serious a thing you've done here
to leave that question unanswered. That's probably not healthy for
you or for any readers. So then I added the
(36:28):
epilogue and I answered the question. I won't go into
all of that here. I didn't, I answered the question,
but I still ended the book with, after all this,
I'm still very tired. And today, James, I still get
very tired, but as I'm a man of faith and
(36:49):
I have screwed that up more than any living being
ever could, I think, but who among us doesn't, right? But,
But I know.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
That it's okay.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
This journey has taken me to the point that I'm
going to be okay, you know? And that curious little
student nurse that I've been married to now for 54 years,
she won't let me be anything but that, you know?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Well, you already know this.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
I'm healthier than I've ever been.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, well, you already know this. God is always leading
you in a direction, always.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
And that's the whole thing. He's got you. And he
knows what's going on. He knows what's in your heart.
He knows what's going on. And that's why, I don't
want to get too super religious on here, but my
fans know this about me, that it's very much, he
gave us free will. He also gave us a way.
And both of us work together. And so, you know,
(37:48):
we're all sinners. Everybody sins. Everybody has their things. But
he knows that. And in the end, you come back
to him, that's all that matters.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Well, let me think if I can do this. I'm
going to tell you something. And if it's not good
or not allowed, edit it.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Out, okay?
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Yes. Part of my answer to the question, and if
you read the book, there's a full page in the
middle of the book with a picture of this critter.
But part of my answer to the question involved a
pound and a half, five-week-old furball. Yeah. I never wanted, James,
I never wanted a cat. Never in my life did
(38:29):
I want a cat. And it didn't occur to me until, actually,
it didn't occur to me until I was dealing with
the relaunch of the book a few months ago, that
just about the time that I sat down to start
working on the book, collecting the memories, I mean, that part.
(38:49):
After a hurricane, the morning after a hurricane, my wife
heard a sound, at the steps on the front porch.
And she goes out and there was a little fur
ball about the size he'd fit in the palm of
your hand.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Pound and a half, five week old tuxedo kitten. Yes.
Black and white tuxedo kitten. Okay, bring it in, but
I do not want to get. So we tried for eight.
We took him to the vet, got him square, got
him going his way to help. Tried for eight weeks
to give them away. Can't give a cat away. You
can give away puppies.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
That's right. true, yes.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
So eight weeks later, she says, well, we'll make him
an outdoor cat. We live in what's left of the
country out here a little bit. I said, no, I
screwed up. I Googled it. And the life expectancy is
about half of an indoor cat. We can't do that.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
If so.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Okay, so Jethro became a part of our family, all right?
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
All right?
Speaker 2 (39:52):
So I.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Had no clue, all right? So you've got this book
behind you, right? Well, there's a children's book about Jethro.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Oh, how cute is that?
Speaker 3 (40:11):
When love... comes on four legs. Now, back to our
conversation about our faith, Walt. There is no way, James,
you will convince me that that was a coincidence that
this little kitten showed up. When it did, how it did,
I'm sorry, I'm getting a little bit that way here.
I am absolutely convinced that God knew what could touch
(40:36):
my heart.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, there's no coincidence.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
And today..
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Today, you could not buy that cat.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Right, right.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
There is not enough money in the world for you
to buy him from me.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Right. As I said, there's no coincidences. No.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
He is my best little friend. Every morning, I have
to take him out for a minute or two. Every night,
he jumps right up here, gets right in my face
as if to say, Pappy, this was a good day.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Very good.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Now, let's just chill. And you cannot buy that.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
And that's where we'll end. Actually, this is good.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
That's where we'll end. Congratulations on the book. Finding a
book is not easy. It takes a lot of work.
So congratulations completing it. And congratulations for putting it out there.
Like we said, I know it's going to be tough
because now everyone can judge it and judge you and
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
So congratulations for bringing it out there.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Well, you are very welcome. I appreciate that very much.
As you said, it is available on Amazon and Barnes
& Noble and most other online retails. We have a
link on my website, anthonygurley.com, a link to a half
dozen or so flyers for people who really are dealing
with the question and the answers to the question that
(42:04):
we dealt with here. There are some links to sites.
They go to the website, they can click on them,
and links to professional avenues for help.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
And then when you have that workbook completed and released,
come back on the show.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
We'll go over it.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
I would appreciate that very much. I've actually finished the
first draft of it. I'm putting it in front of
a handful of professional therapists to make sure that I'm
not saying anything that isn't healthy. I don't think I have,
but I'll, I'll let you know.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
I mean, I haven't come my direction. So we'll talk
about it some more. And a side note today, as
we're recording this today, My young grandson, Ryland, is being
dropped off in Iowa at a college there to play baseball.
So funny you mentioned Iowa. He is actually being dropped
off today.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
What position is he in? I'm not sure. I couldn't
tell you. But he's good. He's been playing baseball a
long time. He's good. And my grandson, Ryland, shout out
to him.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
He's being dropped off in Iowa right now with my
daughter and my son-in-law. They're arriving there today. So it's
kind of funny you mentioned Iowa. I forgot what part
of Iowa it is. But he's going to a school there,
so I'm very proud of him.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Well, I wish him well. And if you happen to
come across a plumber from in or around Dubuque, let
me know, okay?
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Seriously. My life is so interesting. That may happen. Anyway, so, folks,
thank you to Anthony Gurley for being on the show. AnthonyGurley.com.
Start there and follow what he's talking about what's going
on over there. Get the book. I'm telling you. Anybody,
get the book. Just get the book. Tell them James
sent you.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Get the book.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
You're going to get the book. Yes, my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
And then our show, In Between Pages, is on all
social media platforms. We're also on all streaming services like Apple, Audible, iHeartRadio, Spotify,
and the granddaddy of them all, YouTube, at JLJ Media.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Make sure you follow us. Share this with anybody who
needs to hear this.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
A lot of times my fans will share the link
to somebody because it's very simple. You just say, take
a look at this. That's all you got to say.
You may want to look at this. You can gently
send it to somebody. So please do. Because I want
all of us men healthy, productive members of society, living
our best lives.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
That's what I want. Right, Anthony?
Speaker 3 (44:19):
There's plenty of room for that health to expand. Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Thank you, too. Thank you, everybody.
Suicide, Faith, and the Search for Identity and Purpose. That
is the purpose of this book we're going to talk
about today. We're not going to give any major spoilers
or anything, but we're going to talk about it. I
want you guys to go out and get it. If
you're watching me, you see I have part of the
book behind me. It's a big NYC Book Award winner
(00:33):
in 2025.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I see that, too. That's great. It's on Amazon, all
the places you want to find it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
And I have an author who I want to read
part of his bio because I like the way this
is written. So we'll say his name in a second.
He's not famous. He is not a celebrity, athlete, politician,
or business tycoon.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
His is not a household name.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
He's just an ordinary guy with a story to tell.
One told him the umbrella of asking a bigger question
about life, relating to daily successes and victories. failures and disappointments,
both personal and professional. And we're going to talk about that.
And that's what this book is all about. It's a
fascinating read.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
It's a memoir.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
So folks, sit down, get a cup of coffee or
a glass of whiskey, sit down and read this book.
Help me welcome its author, Anthony Gurley.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Hi, Anthony.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Thank you so much, James. I'm humbled that you would
allow me to be a part of this journey that
you're on. I do my homework and I'm, I'm quite
honored to be a part of this, of this journey
with you.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
I thank you.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Well, thank you for seeing me and seeing my work.
I appreciate that very much. I know a lot of times,
you know, people suggest, you know, you should go on
this show and that show. You should look into the
people you're going to talk about to talk to you.
You should see what they're, what they do. And I, I, I,
I appreciate your, your kind words.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Good.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I appreciate it. Well, I'm here to help. That's my,
that's my whole thing. Anyway, it's here to pass on
information for other folks out there. My, my fan base,
my followers, they need to see what's going on. Cause
I want to introduce them to this, this story, because
what you're, what you're sharing may help other people.
Speaker 3 (02:22):
Um, I hope so. Um, I never intended to publish
this book. That was not my intention. Um, I turned
70 years old, James, seven years ago. And I decided
I need to tell my story for my kids and
my grandkids, you know, because they know Pappy that they
(02:43):
spent time with and they see and they don't, but
they don't know all of Pappy's story. And I decided
the children are certainly old enough. They're 45 and 50.
The grandchildren, two of them are college age and older now.
So they're old enough to, to understand reading Pappy's story.
(03:03):
And that's what I intended. So I did it. Took
me three years to put it together. I thought I
was done. I had a good friend who's made her
living as an author for a number of years, read
it just to make sure it was, oh yeah, this
is okay. This is good. And when she finished, she said, James,
she said, I think you need to rethink what you're doing.
(03:25):
I thought she was going to tell me to burn it. Oh.
And never let it see the light of day. I'm serious.
But she said, no. She said, you read part of
the bio sketch. She said, you're just a guy. You're
a middle income guy here in the heart of North Carolina.
You got a wife and kids and a mortgage and
(03:45):
a cat. She said, but you tell a story. And
there's a plumber in Dubuque, Iowa. That's a metaphor that
she used. There's a plumber in Dubuque, Iowa. that needs
to read your story. He can't relate to the NBA
Hall of Famer. He can't relate to that Wall Street tycoon,
(04:06):
but he might be able to relate to your story.
And maybe that'll help him summon the courage to confront his.
That's how I got into this mess.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Well, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (04:19):
So I'm exactly 20 years younger than you.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
I'm 57. Keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Okay. It looks good.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Thank you. I'm trying. I'm trying.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
I drink lots of water. But I have grandchildren also.
I'm Papa Jamie. And I say, you're Papa Jamie. And
I have been recently thinking about my legacy. And it's
funny because men, and why is it such a success
for you just even publishing the book?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
No, I go backwards.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Even writing the book is a success for you because
us as men, we're.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Not taught to share our feelings.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
No, we don't.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
And our generation especially not. Oh, no, not at all.
You just stay stoic. You walk it off. You shake
it off and keep it moving.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Buck up. You know? Yes. Exactly. Come on. I was like,
walk it off. Walk it off. You'll be fine. But
that's something.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
But you and I, and people as you get older,
you get the whiz and like, no, some of this
definitely does affect me.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
And I probably should work it out. Absolutely. Right?
Speaker 1 (05:26):
And one way, of course, is look at it as
So was it overall, was it hard, medium, or semi-easy
to look at your past?
Speaker 3 (05:40):
I've given that a lot of thought. It was very difficult.
I read something that was written about you in a
magazine or something a while back. I can't remember when
I was doing my homework. And you were quoted as
saying something about, let me make sure I get this right,
about things that happen early in your story, stay with us. Well,
(06:05):
it took me three years. I'm not a journaler, never
have been. So when I made the decision to do this,
I got to go back and reconstruct. It took me
about three years and a spreadsheet from here to yonder
to put it all together. Who, where, when, what, how,
you know, about 10% of it made its way into
(06:26):
the book.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
But after that three years and I actually started writing,
it was coming along pretty good. I did a lot
of writing professionally, not creative writing, though. Right, right. Writing manuals,
operation procedures, those kinds of things. But I got to
a place in the writing, James, where I was 11
years old and I hit a writer's block.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
I could not get a word on the page, on
the screen.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
And I couldn't figure out why. And then it hit me.
11 years old is when my father walked out on us.
I was the last player cut from the seventh and
eighth grade basketball tryout team, tryouts. I cried all the
way home and met my daddy as he was walking
out with clothes over his shoulder and a suitcase in
(07:21):
his hands. And I saw him twice after that. But
I was at that point in the story. I got
in the car on a rainy day and drove to
my hometown about an hour on the other side of
Raleigh from where I live and went to the graveyard.
I never went to his funeral. Went to his graveyard,
(07:43):
stood in the rain for about an hour and a half.
Got in the car and came back home. And the
words just came. I needed to close that chapter somehow.
And once that was done, the rest of it, very therapeutic,
incredibly therapeutic. One of my high school friends, one of
(08:04):
my beta readers asked me, he said, are you sure
you want to do this? Aren't you worried about what
some of your friends might think of you? I said, bud,
if they think any less of me, that's on them.
And Amy, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
I want to share this with you. I think I've
talked about it in one of my interviews, but that
whole thing about being young. So I also put out music.
And so one of my albums, I was with a producer.
His name is Pete Mills. He's worked with, like, Michael Jackson.
He's a big-time producer. And he's producing my song. And
he said, James, what do you have? I have a songbook.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I'm writing songs. I write my own songs. So I
had this one, and I titled it 1979.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
And they were like, well, there's a lot of songs
from 1979. But he started reading the lyrics. And it was,
he goes, so you were 10 years old. I go, yeah,
basically when I was 10 years old. And he said,
and it was, and it was when my father walked
out on us. And so we create the song together.
The chain, the title is called lost and found. So
(09:07):
there's a song, the title, we worked on it for
six weeks. It was a six weeks. We worked on it. And,
and actually I sing. So I sang the key. I
never sang before either. But he was like, I want
you to match these lyrics because you were writing about
what you're, and he said, he remembered a couple of
times why it took so long was we actually sat
in it sometimes. We'd be in the studio. And he's like, well, James,
(09:30):
what does this mean to you? You were 10 years old.
So that really, it seems like that was a big
point for you. And I had never thought about it before.
Like you, I never really thought like, well, I guess
it was. I mean, I thought I could think about
other things later before, but like, but no, when I
was 10, I became the man of the house.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
That's what I remember. Take care of your mother. You
know it. Anthony, you know it, right? You know this.
Take care of your mom. You're the man of the house.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Man up.
Speaker 1 (09:56):
You're this. And then everybody in the house kind of
fell in place. Like, you're not the man of the house.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
And I'm 10 years old. I'm freaking 10 years old.
I think it's like that.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
So when you said that in your story, you just
telling that story hit me. Now we both said these
stories together. I'm sure we all at home have one also.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Well, and that, quite frankly, was the point of the
whole exercise, to tell the story under that umbrella that
you mentioned. Because it was my story, my story. Who cares?
But the point was to try to encourage others, particularly men,
(10:38):
quite frankly, young men and older men, to confront their stories,
reflect on them, And then think constructively about how to
learn from their story. Because they're still writing it.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Right.
Speaker 3 (10:54):
You know?
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Right. You also mentioned a book. Throughout the book, there's words. Phrases.
We just said a few right now. That come through.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
I always say, you know, they say, sticks and stones,
but if your brothers and sisters never hurt me. Words
can't hurt you. When you're younger, they can totally hurt you.
And like I said, stick with you. when you were
writing parts of the book where you were talking about
some serious subjects and some of the things your dad
said to you, did you relive it a little bit?
(11:26):
Or were you able to kind of look at it
now in a different lens? Like, okay, he's this man
saying stuff to me.
Speaker 3 (11:35):
Well, it's very interesting, James, when I mentioned the piece
I read and you talked about things have an early
stay with you. When And I didn't realize it until
I got started this process. But there were two memories
that I have of my daddy. Very little else, because
we were never close even before he left. I was
(11:57):
the youngest of five children. I was almost seven years
younger than my older sibling. I was a mistake. I
was not meant to be. I happened. I mean, I
heard that more than once.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I'm sure. I'm sure. Right.
Speaker 3 (12:12):
But the two things I remember my daddy telling me,
and it didn't dawn on me until I got into
this process, was back in the day of black and
white TV and no remote, right? You know, I'd happen
to get between him and the television. And he'd tell me,
get out of the way. I can't see through muddy water.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
All right. So I'm muddy water. I need to be invisible.
I need to get out of the way. All right.
And then don't ever ask me for a damn thing.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
Oh, I've read that before, yes.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
So when I was in the process of writing this manuscript,
and as it developed, I began to see a picture
of my life. I was a successful 30-year administrator at
a good small private college. I had a great career.
Could have still been working there if I'd wanted to,
but it was time to do something else. But I
(13:05):
never once asked for a promotion. I never once asked
for a raise. Now, I got promotions and raises, but
I never once sought that.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
I never once sought attention. I spoke in front of
crowds of hundreds of parents and did TV interviews, all
of that, but I never sought attention. And I never
asked for help.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
For a damn thing. You didn't ask for a damn thing.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
And as I finished the first, I guess the final
draft of this project, I realized almost in a lamenting way,
how much more successful might I have been in some
areas that I would like to have had I had
the courage to just ask for help or to volunteer
(13:57):
to take the lead. But no, stand in the back.
Stay off camera. Now, if you look in the book,
there's a page of the cheerleader team at my college.
I have no clue how that happened. I managed to
do that. But to your point, yes, this therapeutic exercise
(14:22):
enabled me to think logically about a source of some
serious shortages in my development. But I'm just, I was,
I'm just, I'm 76 years old. I'm still, it's not
too late. I discovered through this process.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, no, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
And the thing is, that leads to the next question
I want to ask you, is that is, so after
having looked back and written stuff down, how do you
view your parents now?
Speaker 2 (14:55):
How do you view them?
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Because your mother was a part of this too, obviously,
but that's all it was about. I mean, he was
a big part, but she married him.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
She had you. She was your mother.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
So I just wonder, like, I see my parents differently now,
now that I look back at my life. And as
a big parent myself, I was wondering for you, through
writing this book, though, do you have a different view
of them?
Speaker 3 (15:17):
I don't have much of a different view of my daddy.
I think he could have been more forthright and more
honest about what he did and why he walked out.
I gave him a chance to meet both of his grandkids.
I took each of my children to meet him when
they were less than six months old. And he never
(15:40):
made any effort to establish a relationship. And I will
never forgive him for that. That's his loss. It is.
But I'll never forgive him for that. I learned... that
my mother was very quiet. She was very diminutive. My
bedridden grandfather lived with us from the time about shortly
(16:02):
after my daddy walked out till after my freshman year
at college. And my mother was his caretaker, living on
food stamps. And she didn't show affection. But I learned
through this process She was just, she was a beaten woman.
(16:22):
I don't mean physically, but she was a very beaten
down woman. She was tired. And I love her more
than she did, than I did the day I went
off to college. I love her more than the day
she died because I have a whole new appreciation for
the struggle she went through and all of that.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
You mentioned throughout the book, self-esteem. self-esteem, self-worth. We just
talked about a little bit of this now. You do
include some heavy thoughts in here. I want people to
read them and stuff. When you chose to tell those
stories and add those in there, did you feel better
(17:07):
afterwards also?
Speaker 3 (17:10):
Well, as you said at the beginning, the title of
the book was Deadly Dilemma, right behind you. And that's
exactly what What it suggests, if you think about it,
it's a deadly dilemma. And the subtitle that I just
added when I relaunched the book a few months ago,
I didn't originally publish it with the subtitle. I was
(17:33):
afraid to do that. I was afraid to put that
word on the front of the book. Deadly dilemma, suicide, faith,
and the search for identity and purpose. That was in
the relaunch about five months ago. OK, because I got
to the point where I can no longer be afraid
of that. You know, and the question that the umbrella
(17:58):
that I write about was the good times in life,
the successes, the peaks, the you know, the good days,
the hot, the happy. Does that come often enough? Is
it strong enough? Is it lasting enough to overcome what
for many can be a daily struggle? with loneliness, failure, disappointment, loss. And,
(18:22):
and we know I'm a sociologist by academic training. We
know from the data and from the news, far too
many people answer that question. No. And they make a
very bad choice.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:35):
And so my, my mission in life now is to
find that plumber in Dubuque and make sure that, that
he is getting, finding the courage to confront his story.
But your point is well taken. That yields something you
mentioned a minute ago. When I speak to groups, I
speak to civic groups, church groups, that sort of thing.
(18:59):
After the talk, I always leave time for questions. There
are never any questions.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
None.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Because you said it. We don't talk about this stuff.
But it'll take me 30 minutes to get to my car.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Oh, how funny. I get what you're saying.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Because one by one, Yes, I hear you say. I say, Mr.
Gurley or Anthony, I know what you're talking about, but
we just can't. I've got a brother or I know
I've been there. I've sat in my room alone and wondered,
but we can't talk about this stuff. Well, we have
to talk about it.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
And the point of the whole story, the way I
wrote it, instead of just writing the story, at the
end of you've seen it, you've seen the book, we
draw a line and change the font and reflect And
the whole, I'm actually working now on a workbook based
on reflections because it's not about my story. Right. That's
just a hook to get the attention of the readers
(19:57):
long enough to confront their stories.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
And so we're doing a chapter by chapter workbook, encouraging
sort of updating the reflections, broadening them a little bit.
And it says to the reader now, name an issue
relevant to this chapter in your life. Because I know
there's one there. And how are you reflecting on it
and learning how to enlighten your day-to-day experience?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
No, I just, I know I love that. And I
just think that I hope people who are younger, I
hope men or just, or even women who buy it
to really get more insight for stories, But for men especially,
I have a lot of male viewers and fans, I
want them to read it of any age. If you're younger,
(20:47):
maybe gain some insight now. If you're older, gain some reflection.
And like you said, it's never too late to break
the past.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
Right? James, it's interesting. Again, the title is Deadly Dilemma.
I kept getting asked, well, who's your target audience? When
I first putt. I don't know. I just did what
I did. I don't know my target audience. Well, by
the time I relaunched the book five months ago, I
have a pretty good sense of the target audience. And
(21:21):
there are two primarily, and you just touched on it.
Older men, middle-aged and older, they're asking these questions in
the quiet of the day over a vodka tonic at
night or whatever. Or those high school and college young
adult age folks, you know, the second leading cause of
(21:43):
death among college students, including college athletes, is suicide.
Speaker 1 (21:48):
It is.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Second leading cause of death. They're in the prime of
their life. They've got the world by the. Yeah, they do.
And yet the second leading cause of death. And yet
they're not going to be a target audience for my book.
Because they're not going to look out. But their coaches
(22:09):
who have their attention, their counselors, their pastors, if they're
engaged in a spiritual walk, coaches, counselors, teachers, therapists, those
folks are the target audience in the sense that the
coach calls James into the office after practice and says, James,
(22:31):
look good out there. You know, conversations we've been having,
I got something I want you to read. Now, don't
tell me you can't relate to it. I want you
to read it and then let's me and you, let's
me and you talk about how this guy's revelation of
his struggle relates to what things you and I've been
talking about. And, and did we learn anything here about
(22:53):
how maybe you can, can pick up on some better choices?
And I'm, I'm getting ahead here. And my publicist guy
that helps me tells me I have to be careful
about this. But I won't tell him if you don't.
One of the quotes in the book you alluded to
a minute ago is something called friends, choices, consequences. Friends
(23:19):
choose them carefully and cultivate because they don't just grow.
You know, it's like a tomato plant. You got to
water that sucker. You got to nutrient. Friends choose them
carefully and cultivate them. It's okay to have a lot
of people in your network. Be careful about who you
invite into that inner circle. I agree. Who you're going
to call at three o'clock in the morning when you
(23:40):
need help with something, right? I agree. Secondly, choices, generally speaking,
just choices and make them wisely, not flippantly. And think
about the influence of those friends in your decision making.
But choices, make them wisely and learn because you can
make the best choice in the world and it go
(24:01):
to hell in a handbasket. It's beyond your control. You
can make a really uninformed bad choice and you get lucky.
So learn from it all. And then finally, friends' choices, consequences.
Embrace them graciously and move on. I don't care if
you just won the final four and you went nuts
(24:22):
and it's an amazing thing, a peak of your life.
Enjoy it. Embrace it. And move on.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
One of the things I really enjoyed was watching the
World Cup. and watching teams it's it was it was
there's a lot of camaraderie i mean it was like
this because competition yeah and i used to play sports
where i went in competition but their sportsmanship is what
i really enjoyed for many of the teams and like
i said the one team wins they're they're totally happy
(24:49):
oh my god they made it this is a world
stage they made it they worked hard for this but
then they would come to the other team and like
hug them shake their hands they were like talking to
each other the captains are talking to each other like
I love that. And that's kind of what you're talking about.
It's like, you know, we're off to, we're these little
spinning satellites. We're little satellites out there running around. We
should be able to come together and be able to
(25:12):
talk about our stories, share our feelings.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I mean, and it's not unmanly. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
It's just, I'm not saying you need to cry in
front of me or anything, but I just say, but
to talk honestly about, you know, what happened to me
was effed up. And what this happened is, And what
happened to you was also effed up.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
And you know what?
Speaker 1 (25:31):
We should be able to talk about it how we
want to in a safe way that will help heal us.
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Well, when I retired from the college, James, I worked
at a Division III school.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
So no athletic scholarships, but we had a lot of
competitive athletic teams, NCAA Division III. When I retired, I
wanted to find a way to get up close and
personal to some good big-time college sports. So I live
20 minutes from Wake Forest University.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
So I managed to get a gig with the, with
the contractor they contract with doing unarmed security. Okay. And
it took me a couple of three years to work
my way up the food chain, but now football coming
up soon. I, I, every home football game, I'll be
there in my little green, yellow shirt, right outside the
(26:22):
home team locker room. As they go onto the feet
in basketball, I'm on the floor. eight feet from the
ACC TV folks in baseball, which is my favorite.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (26:34):
I get to, I get to walk and meet parents
of both the home team and the visiting team. And it's,
and I get the answer. I get the opportunity to
talk about friends, choices, consequences with parents of these kids.
And one of the, and the kids occasionally, but one
of the things that I emphasize is if you think
about it and you just hit it on the head, friends, choices, consequences.
(26:58):
you got control over those two things. You've got no
control over the consequences. What you do have control over
is how you let those consequences. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:10):
Literally. I just wrote about that. Yes.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Friends and choices repeat.
Speaker 2 (27:14):
So friends, choices repeat, you know, I just wrote about that.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Literally.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
You're right.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
So yeah, I did. So my blog post stays about that. Actually.
Speaker 1 (27:24):
You can't, you can't, you can't, The outcomes are their outcomes,
is whatever it is. I think it's so important to
work on just what you're putting out.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
What are you putting out?
Speaker 1 (27:34):
And I think, going back to the book itself, you're
putting out something that's constructive. It's not just a tale
of woe. It's not just like a tale of bad thing,
bad thing, bad thing. It may seem that way to
some people, just like I was talking about it. But
if you're more evolved in that, a little more in tune,
then you know that you're sharing stories and saying, please
(27:56):
relate to me.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Please relate.
Speaker 2 (27:58):
That's what you're saying, right? Basically.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
I'll be very honest with you. This is a little
awkward for me because I, again, I'm perfectly happy standing
in front of a crowd and giving a talk. This
is a little, this is different. So it's a little
awkward for me and I appreciate your, your patience with me, but,
but it, be sure to say this right. I know
you're a man of faith.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
And, and, one of the things that I quote towards
the end of the book, I actually quote the lyrics
to a Christian song called surely the presence of the
Lord is in this place. I can feel his mighty
power and his grace. I had to get permission from, from,
from the permission. I got permission to put it in
(28:42):
the book. But that song, that song got me the
first time I heard it. It might change my life.
And it was, A little bit before I started this journey. OK,
but but it set me on a path, I think.
And then secondly, when I was working with college kids
and then I left the college, I launched a nonprofit
(29:04):
still working with college kids for another seven years called
Motivation Ministry. And it was we took the I out
of the word motivation because there's no I in motivation. Okay.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I got it.
Speaker 3 (29:16):
And, but it was about, but, but our tagline, our, our,
our scriptural reference that, that I beat the kids up
about the head and shoulders with it. There was between friends, choices, consequences,
and this verse, they were tired of hearing them. I
didn't care. Philippians 4, 8, whatever is true, noble, righteous, pure, lovely, admirable.
(29:39):
If anything is excellent or praiseworthy, think on these things.
I would tell these college kids, when you screw it
up and you need help, don't call your roommate. And
you're not going to call your mom and dad. Find
a mentor. If you don't already have one, you need
a mentor. And then secondly, when you get up in
the morning, how do you roll over out of your
apartment or your door? Somewhere on the wall, look over
(30:02):
and find the little poster you put on that says,
whatever is true, noble, righteous. If you start your day
with that frame of mind, after a while, it will
become second nature to you. And when you go about
the day and something just blows up, you're going to
take a deep breath. You're going to be okay. You're
(30:23):
going to reset your mind.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
People are always like, geez.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Is your servant done?
Speaker 1 (30:27):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
People ask me, how are you so calm? It took
me years of getting to where I am. I used
to be a hothead when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
I'm much more calm now because I did the work,
but I had a, it takes a village to raise me.
I always tell people all the time. And I had
older male advisors. I had older female advisors. I had
spiritual advisors. I had business advisors. I mean, I had
people I could go to. That would literally give me,
if I had a piece, I need some questioning, they
(30:55):
would answer it for me, give me some advice. So
I think, I love that thing where you're saying, it's like,
just find somebody who just, I mean, who cares about
you on some level. Like, who's going to be there
for you on some level and not steer you wrong.
But who can give you some words of wisdom. Or
I said, my spiritual advisor, everything was done through the Bible,
through the word.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
They would say, read this, check that, do this, read this,
and there. My business advisor may say to a business mind,
try this, do this. So I have people, it all
worked for me. So I'm at the point now where
I'm pretty much a calm person. I mean, things happen.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
You got to walk through it anyway. You got to
walk through it. We just met.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
But I can tell you got way too much energy
to be calm.
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Well, there's that too. I'm two things. I'm calm. You
want me in an emergency, but you also want me
at a party. I'm both.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
James, tomorrow I'm driving about an hour and a half
to a high school in another county down the road here.
I'm taking my former boss from Guilford College with me.
We're going to a birthday celebration for my high school
baseball coach, who is 90 years old. My high school
football coach is still alive and active, is 90 years old.
(32:15):
One of my assistant coaches who went on to become,
actually became a basketball coach at Wake Forest for a
number of years, David Odom, still alive. And I'm blessed, James,
that those three men, and there were others, others have passed,
but I'm blessed that those three men took me under
their wings from the time I was in the eighth grade.
(32:38):
all the way through high school. And we have stayed
in touch and friends over the years. Now, the reason
that's important to me is I never threw a touchdown pass.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
Oh, okay.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
I never pitched seven shutout innings. You know, I was,
but I wanted to be part of the team. So
I became a equipment manager. And then when I got
in high school, athletic trainer. I was on the team.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
I was on the field.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
And the coaches have made it abundantly clear to me
that I was every bit as important to their work
because they didn't have to worry about is the equipment
going to be where it's supposed to be when it's
supposed to be. I had keys to the entire high
school facility except for the principal's office. They trusted me.
Speaker 2 (33:38):
You know?
Speaker 3 (33:39):
And one of the things I write about in the
book is I never felt trusted at home. But they
trusted me.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Right. And that means... I mean, the thing is, when
you pour into somebody anything, it helps.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I mean, we're all tanks of some sort, like gas tanks.
We're all water tanks. And so I think when you
pour into somebody... And give them responsibility. Give them your trust.
Give them your whatever. They always say kids do want boundaries.
(34:17):
Kids do want to know that someone cares about them
and sees them. And they want to know if they're
useful also. So you've got all of that. So you're
not on the field throwing the passes, running the plays.
but you're still a very important part. They made you
feel like an important part of the team because you
were actually. And there's a lot of things that run
a team. You know, a lot of things go on.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Running a team. And believe it or not, in the
middle of October, the second week of October, I will
go back to my hometown and there'll be somewhere between
20 and 25 members of that graduating class team. And
hopefully at least two of those three coaches will spend
the better part of a day and a half together.
(35:00):
it was a bond that none of us appreciated at
the moment. But as we all get older and our
group becomes smaller, we realize just what we had. And
you can't put a price on that. You just can't.
I won't give too much away, but when I wrote
(35:24):
the book, I didn't put a prelude in it because
I was told if you do that, And it doesn't
catch the attention, and they're not going to read the
rest of the book. And so I decided to put
a prelude in, but I didn't call it that. It
was the letter I never sent.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Yeah, I like that.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
And it's exactly what that suggests. And I ended that
letter saying, I'm just tired. I'm very tired. So when
I finished writing the book, my beta, and this is
relevant to what we were just talking about, My beta
readers all gave me different suggestions and so forth and
so on. But they all gave me one suggestion in common.
(36:08):
They said, you need to answer that question. Because I
didn't answer that big question that I mentioned. They said,
this is way too serious a thing you've done here
to leave that question unanswered. That's probably not healthy for
you or for any readers. So then I added the
(36:28):
epilogue and I answered the question. I won't go into
all of that here. I didn't, I answered the question,
but I still ended the book with, after all this,
I'm still very tired. And today, James, I still get
very tired, but as I'm a man of faith and
(36:49):
I have screwed that up more than any living being
ever could, I think, but who among us doesn't, right? But,
But I know.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
That it's okay.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
This journey has taken me to the point that I'm
going to be okay, you know? And that curious little
student nurse that I've been married to now for 54 years,
she won't let me be anything but that, you know?
Speaker 2 (37:16):
Well, you already know this.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
I'm healthier than I've ever been.
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Yeah, well, you already know this. God is always leading
you in a direction, always.
Speaker 3 (37:25):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (37:26):
And that's the whole thing. He's got you. And he
knows what's going on. He knows what's in your heart.
He knows what's going on. And that's why, I don't
want to get too super religious on here, but my
fans know this about me, that it's very much, he
gave us free will. He also gave us a way.
And both of us work together. And so, you know,
(37:48):
we're all sinners. Everybody sins. Everybody has their things. But
he knows that. And in the end, you come back
to him, that's all that matters.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Well, let me think if I can do this. I'm
going to tell you something. And if it's not good
or not allowed, edit it.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Out, okay?
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Yes. Part of my answer to the question, and if
you read the book, there's a full page in the
middle of the book with a picture of this critter.
But part of my answer to the question involved a
pound and a half, five-week-old furball. Yeah. I never wanted, James,
I never wanted a cat. Never in my life did
(38:29):
I want a cat. And it didn't occur to me until, actually,
it didn't occur to me until I was dealing with
the relaunch of the book a few months ago, that
just about the time that I sat down to start
working on the book, collecting the memories, I mean, that part.
(38:49):
After a hurricane, the morning after a hurricane, my wife
heard a sound, at the steps on the front porch.
And she goes out and there was a little fur
ball about the size he'd fit in the palm of
your hand.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:08):
Pound and a half, five week old tuxedo kitten. Yes.
Black and white tuxedo kitten. Okay, bring it in, but
I do not want to get. So we tried for eight.
We took him to the vet, got him square, got
him going his way to help. Tried for eight weeks
to give them away. Can't give a cat away. You
can give away puppies.
Speaker 2 (39:28):
That's right. true, yes.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
So eight weeks later, she says, well, we'll make him
an outdoor cat. We live in what's left of the
country out here a little bit. I said, no, I
screwed up. I Googled it. And the life expectancy is
about half of an indoor cat. We can't do that.
Speaker 2 (39:45):
If so.
Speaker 3 (39:47):
Okay, so Jethro became a part of our family, all right?
Speaker 1 (39:50):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
All right?
Speaker 2 (39:52):
So I.
Speaker 3 (39:55):
Had no clue, all right? So you've got this book
behind you, right? Well, there's a children's book about Jethro.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
Oh, how cute is that?
Speaker 3 (40:11):
When love... comes on four legs. Now, back to our
conversation about our faith, Walt. There is no way, James,
you will convince me that that was a coincidence that
this little kitten showed up. When it did, how it did,
I'm sorry, I'm getting a little bit that way here.
I am absolutely convinced that God knew what could touch
(40:36):
my heart.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Yeah, there's no coincidence.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
And today..
Speaker 3 (40:44):
Today, you could not buy that cat.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Right, right.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
There is not enough money in the world for you
to buy him from me.
Speaker 2 (40:51):
Right. As I said, there's no coincidences. No.
Speaker 3 (40:55):
He is my best little friend. Every morning, I have
to take him out for a minute or two. Every night,
he jumps right up here, gets right in my face
as if to say, Pappy, this was a good day.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
Very good.
Speaker 3 (41:11):
Now, let's just chill. And you cannot buy that.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
And that's where we'll end. Actually, this is good.
Speaker 1 (41:18):
That's where we'll end. Congratulations on the book. Finding a
book is not easy. It takes a lot of work.
So congratulations completing it. And congratulations for putting it out there.
Like we said, I know it's going to be tough
because now everyone can judge it and judge you and
the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
So congratulations for bringing it out there.
Speaker 3 (41:42):
Well, you are very welcome. I appreciate that very much.
As you said, it is available on Amazon and Barnes
& Noble and most other online retails. We have a
link on my website, anthonygurley.com, a link to a half
dozen or so flyers for people who really are dealing
with the question and the answers to the question that
(42:04):
we dealt with here. There are some links to sites.
They go to the website, they can click on them,
and links to professional avenues for help.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
And then when you have that workbook completed and released,
come back on the show.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
We'll go over it.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
I would appreciate that very much. I've actually finished the
first draft of it. I'm putting it in front of
a handful of professional therapists to make sure that I'm
not saying anything that isn't healthy. I don't think I have,
but I'll, I'll let you know.
Speaker 2 (42:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
I mean, I haven't come my direction. So we'll talk
about it some more. And a side note today, as
we're recording this today, My young grandson, Ryland, is being
dropped off in Iowa at a college there to play baseball.
So funny you mentioned Iowa. He is actually being dropped
off today.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
What position is he in? I'm not sure. I couldn't
tell you. But he's good. He's been playing baseball a
long time. He's good. And my grandson, Ryland, shout out
to him.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
He's being dropped off in Iowa right now with my
daughter and my son-in-law. They're arriving there today. So it's
kind of funny you mentioned Iowa. I forgot what part
of Iowa it is. But he's going to a school there,
so I'm very proud of him.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
Well, I wish him well. And if you happen to
come across a plumber from in or around Dubuque, let
me know, okay?
Speaker 2 (43:21):
Seriously. My life is so interesting. That may happen. Anyway, so, folks,
thank you to Anthony Gurley for being on the show. AnthonyGurley.com.
Start there and follow what he's talking about what's going
on over there. Get the book. I'm telling you. Anybody,
get the book. Just get the book. Tell them James
sent you.
Speaker 3 (43:37):
Get the book.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
You're going to get the book. Yes, my pleasure.
Speaker 1 (43:41):
And then our show, In Between Pages, is on all
social media platforms. We're also on all streaming services like Apple, Audible, iHeartRadio, Spotify,
and the granddaddy of them all, YouTube, at JLJ Media.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
Make sure you follow us. Share this with anybody who
needs to hear this.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
A lot of times my fans will share the link
to somebody because it's very simple. You just say, take
a look at this. That's all you got to say.
You may want to look at this. You can gently
send it to somebody. So please do. Because I want
all of us men healthy, productive members of society, living
our best lives.
Speaker 2 (44:16):
That's what I want. Right, Anthony?
Speaker 3 (44:19):
There's plenty of room for that health to expand. Absolutely.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
Thank you, too. Thank you, everybody.
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