August 24, 2026 • 48 mins
It’s the holidays, and photographer Brooklyn Locke is bound for Italy with her husband, Trey, and their two children. But when Trey vanishes from the airport, missing their connecting flight, their impromptu vacation―and life as she knows it―begins to unravel.Desperate to find her husband, Brooklyn accepts help from a stranger on the same flight, Eden Barrow. But Eden soon makes a shocking claim. She is the sister of Trey’s first wife, and ten years ago he was the main suspect in her murder.Struggling to comprehend these accusations, fate delivers one more blow: a violent accident that leaves Brooklyn fighting for her life. With nowhere else to turn, Brooklyn leans on Eden for support. But each kindness feels too rehearsed, feeding her doubts about Eden’s motives and Trey’s true past.Brooklyn has her own dark history she’d rather forget and confronts an unsettling possibility. Her life is not what it seems, and the truth is a trap―laid by someone waiting for the perfect time to strike.
J.T. Ellison is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of more than thirty novels of psychological suspense, including the Lt. Taylor Jackson series, the Dr. Samantha Owens series, and numerous acclaimed standalones. She is the Emmy Award–winning cohost of A Word on Words, the literary television series on PBS.Over a twenty-year career, her work has earned widespread critical recognition, with titles optioned for television and published in thirty countries, and millions of copies in print worldwide.A dedicated voice in the writing community, she also publishes The Creative Edge, a newsletter and blog for writers navigating the craft and business of fiction.She lives with her husband and twin kittens—one of whom is a ghost in Nashville, Tennessee.
J.T. Ellison is the New York Times and USA Today bestselling author of more than thirty novels of psychological suspense, including the Lt. Taylor Jackson series, the Dr. Samantha Owens series, and numerous acclaimed standalones. She is the Emmy Award–winning cohost of A Word on Words, the literary television series on PBS.Over a twenty-year career, her work has earned widespread critical recognition, with titles optioned for television and published in thirty countries, and millions of copies in print worldwide.A dedicated voice in the writing community, she also publishes The Creative Edge, a newsletter and blog for writers navigating the craft and business of fiction.She lives with her husband and twin kittens—one of whom is a ghost in Nashville, Tennessee.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
All right, folks, welcome to another edition of it. Between
the pattern James lot Junior, It's me James ut Junior.
Here are my channel, j l J Media. I know
it's gonna be some initials for you today. You guys
call me JLJ all the time. Come a three word
person name, thank god, whatever. But I also like people
would have initials for their names. And so my latest
guest today is a New York Times selling and USA
(00:27):
Today best selling author of or thirty novels. She us
have been five when she started, including the Lieutenant Jack
Taylor Jackson series, the Doctor Samantha Owen series. And she
also has an Emmy Award winning co host of a
Word on Words okay, folks on PBS, So she's a
Emmy winner, as you know. On our our channel we
(00:49):
talk about I'm an Emmy Judge, Emmy voter, So that's
kind of the nice. So she also says on I
don't read everything on him, but I just says that
she's also published The Creative Edge, a newsletter and blog
for writers navigating the craft the business of fiction, which
we always could use that for those kind of communities.
But I love this part. This part makes me just smile.
(01:11):
She lives with her husband and twin kittens. That makes
me just want to, like, I just want to just
smile from ear to ear. Help me welcome with her
new book You Know Why. And if you're watching, it's
behind me. If you're listening, it's called you Know Why.
J t Ellison.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Okay, yeah, James, it's good to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Same here. First of all, congratulations you've given birth to
another book. Yep here. I'm I have asked this question anybody,
but I'm asking of you after writing so many books
that talk to people who are to begetting into careers
or just their last book. I mean, I've done both.
But you're somewhere in the middle, somebody like you. You've
(01:52):
done enough books, You've done this. You know what this
is like? What keeps you motivated in writing and releasing material?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, the readers, I mean, I want to give them
something right, But it can't just be about them. It
has to be for me. I have to write for myself.
I have to, you know, create something that makes me
want to get up in the morning and come to
my desk and experience a story. And it can be
incredibly frustrating, and it can be incredibly rewarding. But I
(02:26):
just have so many stories to tell. I have a
lot of stories to tell and things that I want
to try, genres that I haven't tried yet, just so
many things that I want to do.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
That.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, it gets me up and it keeps me up
at night sometimes thinking, you know, how, what am I
going to do tomorrow? How am I going to do this?
What am I going to do? It's it's just I
love my job. I'm incredibly blessed to have a job
that I love, that I'm good at, that I can
get paid for, and that lets me stay home with
the cats.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
What you just said actually falls in line. I've interviewed actors, actresses, musicians, whatever,
and it sounds like for the folks who do who
are and it's in the long haul, the longevity I
call the long timers. We don't say old anymore. That
word's gone long timers. It sounds like a through line
(03:22):
is interest. You're still interested?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Aren't you? In the craft? In the in How how
can I get better? How can I You know, I've
got a lot of accolades, and that's phenomenal, and those
are all you really need, those to keep you in it.
Right to keep your ego in this because it's art.
You know, if you're creating art and you're not getting
a response, it's very very hard on you. And I've
(03:48):
been lucky enough to get a good response. But there's
just something about the creation of being someplace at the
end of the day where you had no idea you
were going to be, where the story has taken over
and taken you and you've gotten into a flow state
and you've actually written something and you look back on
it and you're like, wow, that's that's actually pretty good,
(04:10):
or wow, that's going to need some work. But either way,
you've created something. You've made something out of nothing, and
any artist in any genre is going to understand how
that makes you feel. It's it's intoxicated.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It is. It's one of those it's okay, you're sorry
about that. It's it's very much this year. You create this,
You get to create this world and it's yours to
play in. You create your own playground. Yes, and that's
what I think that's the best part of this. And
then again we were saying before we came on a
show about something another show, actually with you, you can
(04:46):
it may chant to me. It may be purple, it
may chance to be something you don't know where it's
going to go. You have no idea. If you let it,
if you allow yourself right to ride the journey, then
you go plau I always say people a w I
say you should read a book. It'll take you place
as you've never been before. I guess the same was
writing a book down, so writing would be it's the same.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Thing, absolutely, because there's and and there's so many different
ways to do it, and every book is different. I mean,
oh my gosh, if they were all the same and
you could sit down and just bang it out, it
would make life easier. But I don't know that it
would be as fun. I mean, every book is a challenge.
Every book is its own mountain to climb. And I
(05:27):
used to as a baby author, I used to hear
the career author say that, and I'd be like, what
are you talking about? You know Tess Garretts and used
to say, I don't remember how to do it. Every
time I sit down at the page, I have to
relearn how to write a book. And you know, oh my gosh,
she's so right. It's just every single time it's something
new and that's you know, obviously that keeps your interest, right.
(05:49):
It's really easy to stay engaged when it's a daily challenge.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah. It's like my buddy Lee Goldberg, who's another bestselling.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah I know Lee.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Oh I love Lee and he's hilarious and his brother Todd,
well hilarious. And but you're saying, he's like, there's times
when he's like, I don't I have ideas of what
I want to write, but I have to grab them.
That's the challenge every book is grabbing the ideas and
putting them into a book. Like that's all point. We
have a lot of ideas. You have a million ideas
probably right now throwing around, don't you.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Oh yeah, tons, But you have to you do. You
have to grab them, you have to write them down.
Stephen King always says, if it's a great idea will
stay with you and you don't have to write it down.
And that's that's true on a macro level, for sure.
On the micro level, you know, I'll have a line
of dialogue and it's like I'll be sitting at dinner,
(06:40):
I'll be with friends and be like old please, and
everybody knows, you know, it's like okay, whatever, and I
either grab my notebook or I'm writing it on my phone.
You know, you do you you snatch those things away
because they go away, those fun little micro things go away,
and you never want that to happen.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So so I write audio dramas and so about twenty
five of them on my network. And I remember I
dreamt of the words depressed horse, Oh why am you
can see? Because'm a big Stephen King fan, so speaking
of that, it stuck with me for two years to
pressed horse just press didn't know what it meant. I
(07:20):
didn't know because I'm also a songwriter, so I know
it is the song? Is it? This is a poem?
I mean, I had no idea, but I didn't. I
didn't force it. I just kind of just kind of
I wrote other things like you said, your regular stuff.
But it stuck with me. But then the idea came
to me early this year as an audio drama and
it's out now. I'm backing the Stairs out now. That
was doing pretty well. But it's about a guy goes
(07:44):
to a therapist. It's the therapy sessions every week, and
there's a lot of horse and equme metaphors. So so
what we're finding out is is he talking about an
actual horse or is it means something else? And then
the actual little spoiler alert the therapist all of a sudden,
(08:08):
she's craving oatmeal and craving and watching westerns and she's
like this and she has her own therapists. So they
say there have their own therapist and she's like, like,
is this case too much? It's like, so that's kind
of something. But but you said it sat around for years.
I had no idea what it just and but this
(08:29):
seemed to go with this and so.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Now I want to listen to this because.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
That's anywhere anywhere he goes anywhere. It's all the streaming
plat ones. But for you, so with this story, m hm,
where did the genesis of this story come from?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Years ago? Idea?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Okay, so they don't want to I.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Mean, yeah, that's that is. You have to know when
something is an idea that needs to percolate, right when
you just need to put it aside. You need to
hold on to it because it's going to come back
around and you're going to find the story for it.
And that was that was this. So it's a combination.
So it's a dual narrative. So it's a combination of
actually two ideas. One I travel a lot, and I'm
(09:18):
always in the airport watching people going what would happen
if they just walked out? You know, what would happen
if if, you know, they go to get a drink
and they never come back, right, So that's one idea,
and the other I was on a plane. This was
over over ten years ago. I was on a plane.
(09:39):
My husband and I were going through infertility treatments and
not succeeding at it, and I was so I'm tuned
up on all the hormones and I'm already pissed off.
And there's this beautiful families sitting in front of me.
There's two adorable kids, this stunningly beautiful mom and this
really handsome dad, and they they're fighting. The two of
(10:03):
them are arguing over something so banal. It was something
like the sunscreen wasn't right, you know, And I was
so mad at them, just this visceral anger. And you know,
I know it was the hormones that I know, you know,
but it's like you do not realize what you have,
you know, And I don't think people do realize what they have.
(10:24):
They complain. You know, the kids are home from school.
Oh my god, it's a snow day. What are we
going to do? It's like, oh, you are so blessed,
you just don't see that, right, And so I tucked
both of those away, and I pulled both of them
out and turned them into We called it the Airplane Book.
For a really long time. It all happened. You know,
all the inciting incidents are in the airport airplane.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And so when I told my my editor was talking,
you know, what are we going to do next? And
I told her, I said, well, here's here's my idea.
It's a dual narrative. The first narrative a woman is
on a trip and her husband goes missing from the airport.
And the other part of the narrative is a woman
on a plane who sees a couple arguing and realizes
(11:10):
that the man is the person who murdered her sister
ten years earlier. Yeah, and she was like, write that, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
That's the book.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, So that's you know, that's what I did. So
it is a dual narrative story that that came from
two you know, very disparate moments that I just held
on to you just hold on to it until it's time.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
That's so cool. Here's a question for you. I kind
of want to say it this way because this is obvious.
The characters come from you. You're the creator. So I'm
sure parts of you, parts of people, you know about
all that stuff is, and then just just create that.
(11:56):
Everybody's the amalgamation of stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I'm sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, But.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I've I think what I want to ask you is,
as you're writing the book, right, I'll ask for this book.
As you're writing this book, do you become that lead character?
Do you do you kind of mail? Are you a
twin thread with that character? Are you still able to
be I'm up here and I'm writing about like what
is that about for you?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
That's interesting. That's a really good question because like in
my Taylor Jackson series, the first books that I was writing,
she's a homicide detective. I am not a homicide detective.
You know, the some total, the sum total of what
I knew about police work was what I saw in
Law and Order. Right, I had no idea. I just
wanted to write that kind of character because she's, you know,
(12:43):
just this fabulous hero, right, iconic kind of hero. So
she was born out of my own hero complex, right I.
You know, I would drive down the highway and I
would imagine a car driving off and hitting a guardrail
and flipping and catching on fire, and I would stop
and I would go and help, and then I would
(13:04):
get back in my car and leave before the you know,
that kind of stuff, the overactive imagination that we all
all writers have. So she was that for me. She
was the She was the hero that I always would
hope that if I was in a situation, a life
or death situation, that I would rise to that occasion.
I don't know, Thank god, I haven't had to test
(13:28):
right knocking on wood here. But so for her, absolutely,
she is very much aligned with who I see myself
as some of the other characters I would not say
that about they are people who either like and it's
one of us. Olivia is a designer and architectural designer.
(13:52):
That's a job that I would love to have, right,
I would love to be able to go in and
tear down houses and rebuild them and decorate them. I
think that would be really fun as a job. So
so I often will create a character who has a
facet of me that I would like to explore. There's
(14:13):
a lot, there's many, many lines of mental health through
all of my books. It has affected our family very
very deeply, and I like to explore that I have
and tear me apart. The main character is a skier.
She's a young teenage ski phenom. I was a skier.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
That's so. Yes, Yes, they are definitely offshoots of various means,
but in you know, blown up ways, much bigger scope, broader,
much broader. Yeah, and they're you know, they're often good
at what they do, which is always helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Well what does that mean? What psychology does that mean
for you? Are you say you know you'll feel as
what you do that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Absolutely, I mean I was not there the day they
passed out the gene for decorating. I was not there
that day. I do not have that. Architecturally, I can.
I can envision, you know, a building and what I want,
but the details of making it pretty, No, I was
not there that day.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I was.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I was a mediocre skier at best. Funny, you know, so,
so it's it's elements of things that I wish I
could succeed at that.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
But because you actually mean the person's actually fulfilling your destiny.
But on page it's like exactly, they get to go further.
That's really only about reading books because sometimes when you
read books, you start you you know, you identify with
a character in the book, you follow it's journey and
he gets to kind of feel you know that this
ending is happy, great, it's a happy ending great, or
(15:55):
this ending is like really sad. That's interesting. I love.
That's what I love about books because you just never
know where it's gonna go.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
And the connection with the with the character is everything.
That's why they always everybody asks what's more important the
character or the plot? And I'm a thriller writer, so
obviously the plot is hugely important, but the character is everything.
If you don't have a character that the reader connects with,
then the whole story is gonna fall apart.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
That's I'm just gonna say that, right, And that's been
I mean, here's a great here's a great question about
that too. Is that I always feel like, because I
work in TV and stuff, you can have character driven plot.
Sometimes characters can drive plots. Mm hm. It's a tricky thing.
I mean, it has that'd be a good story. But
(16:40):
like they say on stage, but they want a page.
And on stage it's like, if you have a good
central story, it's plausible and we are even whimsical, but
a good story in the center, it can almost come
alive in any way you want. Right, that's all point.
So for you as an author, it's always a dual
(17:02):
purpose for you too, it's basically it is it's it's
because you're a thriller writer. It is character and actually
you do biomic. You're talking, you're doing both, right, can
you actually the character is compelling? Oh no, let me
ask you this question. So in that scenario, what are
some of the major things you you are thinking about?
But sual it comes to your major characters, and that's thriller.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
They have to be compelling. That that's the right word
for it. They have to be compelling. They have to
be understandable. You have to understand their motivations, even if
you don't like them. You know, you don't have to
approve of their motivations, but you have to understand why
they're doing it. And you know that's in suspense. A
lot of a lot of what we do is you know,
(17:48):
what is this motivation? And that's the driver through the
whole story is trying to figure out what the character's
motivation really is.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
And what kills me is when I've seen some not
so well done some time you plight because Ryan book
is you know, I stobb anybody writes books, but I
have written read some books, or watch some TV show
mystery shows that I fight. The basic the premise of
(18:18):
the lead character not letting us in on things. That's
what hurts it. And I and I, you know, am
for example of somebody who's really good. I was thinking.
I was thinking of the TV show Dallas. Everybody remembers Dallas.
Back in the day, it was everything. J R. Ewing
was the guy you love to hate, right He's one
of the first kind of anti heroes. It was like,
(18:39):
but he lets you know. There were certain things he loved,
and he knew what his motivations were and did think
you didn't like. You know, It's like he did love
his family on some level, but he just felt like,
you just do anything I say. We just do whatever
I say. We get along great. But they fight him,
you know, they fight them up. But it's like there's
a whole there's a whole thing with the character letting
the audience snow. So how do you temper that when
(19:03):
you do stories where you're like, Okay, I got the
audience in on this now, so they kind of give it,
I mean, not give to you. It must be a
tough thing too, it.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Is, And it honestly just depends on which kind of
story you're telling. Are you Are you writing a thriller
in which the reader knows more than the main character
about what's going on? Yes, or are you writing a
mystery in which the reader is finding out everything as
the character does. Are what point of view are you using?
(19:34):
Are you in a first person mystery where literally every
step the reader is going to be lockstep with you
discovering the story, or are you you know, are you
in first person and third person present tense? You know?
I'm writing one right now that has like every point
of view in it, which may or may not work
(19:55):
in the end, but it adds. It's this such a
delicate of when do I let the reader in? And
I struggle with that on every book, you know, unless
I'm doing something like with a serial killer, and then
we're in the serial killer's point of view and we know,
you know, And that's just a pure thriller. But for suspense,
(20:20):
suspense is this weird genre that doesn't even really exist,
you know, it doesn't have a bisack code at all.
It's not you know, in the Dewey decimal systems, suspense
is not a thing. So we're straddling mystery and thriller
with some Gothic overtones and all of the elements to
(20:40):
try to keep you connected with this reader, i mean,
with this character and not get you bored with the story,
and have that suspense and have that dread, that line
of dread that pulls you through it. And it's it's
difficult to know when to let the rere in. It
(21:01):
is really difficult to know. And that's just comes with
you know, revision and find you know, finding. Oh wait,
this is the point where I want to do that.
I mean, I'm doing that in this book that I'm writing.
It's a mystery until it's not, and then it's a thriller.
And it's that's challenging ansk you.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
This question too, that's kind of related to it. Well,
you're doing a thriller or a mystery. Do you have
like some notes on the side that reminds you that
on page fifty five you said this, and page eighty
five you said, like, do you have like breadcrumb like
a lot of mysteries is like you drop hints and
things throughout the book to make this make sense in
(21:43):
the end. How do you keep that? Because I know
I'm talking to somebody. Some authors will go, yeah, I
got what I said on page one forty seven. I
had to go back and really chant you know, you
know it because because that person was so writing the
book and so other things, other great ideas came later,
they don't make sense to that early ideal they had.
So I just wanted for you. Do you have like
(22:04):
an outline of like like best bits or some like
okay story is this? You know, that's the that's the
husband who killed that's the man who killed my You
have like the I mean you have that on how
do you manage that?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So I use scribner when I'm working, and when I
hit one of those, I will I will highlight it
as a comment, and I'll leave myself a comment right there,
you know, And and then I go back through the
comments and I make sure things match up very good,
and if it doesn't, if I've pulled a thread, then
I can just delete that comment, and I don't need
to worry about it, but that breadcrumb is still there,
(22:40):
you know, if I decided not to go in that direction,
so that my manuscript is littered with comments of you know,
don't forget about this, this is a lie. She did
this because of X. You know, I do. I I
find having an institute is much easier than than the notes.
(23:00):
But once I got a draft, then I'll go through
and I'll like write down, Okay, there here's X, here's why.
And then the copy editors. I rely on my copy editors,
I really do. I have Happily, I've had the same
team for the past few books. This will be the
fourth book we do together. And they know my style,
(23:22):
they know my weaknesses, and and so they're on the
they're on the lookout for these things as well. So
they're a huge help.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Because if you say, you know, blue Eye Susie, and
then later on I heard and then Mark.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
There's always that. I mean, there's there's always that kind
of stuff. I got myself in trouble with timelines. If
I can just write a sequential story that's all takes place,
and I don't have any backstory, and I don't have
to do math.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I mean, writer, math is just wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Why do we do this to ourselves? It's not fair.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I'm not gonna math either. I'm not not good math.
I'm not good math. I'm gonna read a passage just
for the author so you can hear how I mean,
I'm sure you'll hear it sounds with the audio verson,
but this is I lubricated my voice with coffee. I'm
gonna do my best, and here we go. I pocket
(24:23):
the wallet, get the film loaded into place, and snap
the back of the camera closed. Time to test my theory.
In the kitchen, you can eat in a Margo sit
at the table, their heads together, chatting animatedly. I raise
the camera to my eye, stares through the viewfinder and
(24:44):
eating barrow. The woman is pretty, but not conventionally beautiful.
Her dark blonde hair slick back into a low bun.
Her eyes are hazel, her features are softened by weariness.
Her nose is sharp with a gentle slope. Her lips
are touched too full. I think she's had discreet work done.
(25:11):
She is locked on Margo in a fairal way, and
that sends warning signals down my spine. Eden isn't Margo's
usual type, but that doesn't mean anything. Margo's defense of
a woman now makes more sense. She likes her. They've
known each other for several days. That's long enough for
(25:31):
my sentimental sister to get attached. I strain my brain
trying to master the features of the woman at the
table with the silhouette from my darkened mind, but it
doesn't work. Too bad. The camera trick would have been
a really great tool, because my sister seems so animated.
(25:51):
I try to swallow the misgivings and chalk up, chalk
my reaction up to the face blindness. It is disconcerting,
for sure, but right now I need my sisters and
this woman's help. If Eden Barrow knows something about Trey,
I need to find out what it is.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Don't don't dun so that's my I don't think it
beautifully done.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Thank you, j I don't think I give anything to
switch away. But it's pastors I really liked towards. I'm
not gonna say it's the book. Don't aware that I thought,
what a great you. Literally you gave what you set
up a stage. We're there and I'm there in the room.
I'm I feel like I'm behind him as his dealing
(26:40):
camera ready, and I see him see I see him
seeing them and he's trying to figure this stuff out,
but he needs Eden. He also gave us a little
thing about his sister, like if there's so much going
on that in that scene.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, Brooklyn, Brooklyn. She has this really horrible problem in
the book, and it was a it was a big
problem for me writing the book too. There was a
huge challenge there. But the chance she ends up with
face blindness and she has this cool, you know trick
she she puts the camera up and then she sees
(27:18):
the things that she you know, thought that she should.
But that that is a huge moment in the book
where she's realizing, oh, something else is going on here.
Maybe I can't trust the people around me, and and
that's always a horrible that realization of wait a second,
(27:39):
there's something else going on and and perhaps I need
to step back and look at it through a different
lens metaphorically and literally.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
And literally, yes, exactly. I went to it recently myself,
with some with some cousins went through that, so I
am wow, I did it. I was like, oh wow,
this is not what I thought it was. And I
was really I was kind of surrounded. So and at
this point I'll talk to any from now, but it's
all the story. But it was like but the realization
(28:11):
was like, and you really do get you put on
you have put on a whole different like lens to
look at it now, like, oh, okay, I think in
life and maybe this book also talks about this, you
kind of go a certain way. You have you have
learned behaviors, right, that's why you have learned behaviors. So
you act accordingly, right to learn behaviors, and then something
(28:32):
else comes up and butt up against it and you.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Have And that's I mean, that's the fun. That's the
fun of a of a thriller. Of all of this
is putting the the character in an untenable situation to
see how they react and are they going to fall
back on their old paths and what they know to
do or are they going to grow? And if they
don't grow, you know, something bad is probably going to
(28:58):
happen to them. They have to change. Know, we were
forcing them out of the chrysalis, We're forcing them to
become a butterfly, and and you know some some succeeded
that and some do not. Some come out and get
eaten by a bird the first second they're out.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yes, some don't agree.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
To South America. You know, you just don't know right.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Right, As a reader, you're going, oh my god, will
they change? Will they catch this? Will they get it?
That's what a good book would do, right, We're like,
oh my goodness. I'm like I said, I felt like
I was behind him going, you know, looking that direction. Yeah, noticing.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I'm glad. I'm glad because if you're in TV and
you've got all of that experience, that's I try to
write in a very cinematic way. You know, I want
you to be able to be looking at this scene
through the character's eyes and seeing what they're seeing.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Oh I I I completely okay, little expansion. What I
what I felt is, oh, the cameras looking in the
room and I see a table, two women facing each other,
heads together, and all you see is the back of
his head getting the camera up and then you see
(30:10):
the view what he's seeing. That was the whole thing
of going in and out. I also director, so in
and out and I can, I can, I can literally
see that, and then and almost doing some kind of
fun to work with that where you don't hear them,
they're panomime acting, they're talking, you know what they're saying,
and he kind of maybe even shadowy on some level.
Maybe it's a window in front. I don't I don't know,
(30:32):
but that that's how I felt I read that scene
and that he's then you go, maybe turning Canter back
on him, the one eye looking in there, and and
have the overhead, the overheim what do you call it,
narration of him saying those words, were saying like, that's
not usually her type, and what's going on? But I
(30:53):
really need eating to tell So I I saw it
very I saw it very clearly, and so I so, hey,
it's could be a series or a TV movie or something.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Oh, this one lends itself to the screen without a doubt,
without a doubt.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, I think so, I think I think it can.
So that's why I'm like, I'm not surprised that there's just.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
There's so many you know, it's got a good ABCD stories,
everybody's got a roll, there's a lot of machinations, there's
a lot of cool ways to put it all together,
and then they when they collide. Wow, I mean that
is that is epic season and right season season.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah, and yes, yes, I went away. Here's the thing.
This is called between the pages. How do you how
did you know where to end this book? The book?
How do you know when end? How do you know?
It's like, okay, this is good.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Another challenge, right, it's another huge challenge. It's like, okay,
we're one hundred and twenty thousand words in, we got
right story that I this one in particular, I did
not know exactly how it was going to end, and
I was able to bookend it in a way that
(32:14):
I don't normally get. The beautiful symmetry of the book
ends of here's where it started and here's where it ends,
and they match so beautifully. I mean, any any thriller
is you open with a question, you end with the answer,
and everything in between is in service of discovering the answer.
(32:35):
Every once in a while, though, you get to have
these really lovely bookends to the story, and that that
came at the last minute. I don't normally know my endings.
I really experienced this one as I was writing it,
which was a lot of fun. I just didn't quite
know where I was going, and it worked. It worked
(33:00):
out really really well. And you know, I also I
do think in terms of what is season two? And
so there's always a little door. Series, it's very easy
to leave a door open, right, but in standalones it's
much much harder. And I think we saw that in
big little lies, you know, this Juggernaut show, and what
(33:21):
do we do next?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
How do we continue this story when it was a
big standalone? So I always keep that in the back
of my mind, is how am I going to make
season two?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
What?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
What am I going to sit down with? You know,
if I'm in a writer's room, how am I going
to expand this story? And I was able to pull
that in this one, to have just the teensiest sliver
of light under the door?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Well could write it, could write anything.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
So sure, sure, and you can lie, I mean, you
know exactly. You know, you don't have to tell the truth.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Like about Dallas. That one season was a dream.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
So right, you go back see and but you gotta
be careful with those kinds of devices because the reader,
the viewer, they can feel tricked. You don't want to
trick them. You want to trick them, but only in
a way that they were like, oh my god, of
course it was there all along. I saw it and
I missed it. You know that sleight of hand is
(34:20):
everything in these kinds of stories.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
And we mentioned Stephen King. I'll tell you when I
read Kujo, that's what stands out for me. The book
was very different in the movie ending, folks, as much
as let you know that right now, like it's a
very different ending. And I but that was the thing
that it was. I I thought when I was reading,
(34:43):
I think I was thinking of movie endings that it
would not go that direction. I'm like, I was boiler
Frey blah blah blah. No, but if you saw a movie,
you know how to know that one. But the book
was I thought, what a great way to end it. Though,
that's kind of it was kind of like got it.
It's like, gotcha. Even when I read carry the book
before the movie we saw the movie, it's it's pretty good.
(35:07):
Like it's like, oh and the movie pretty much did
like the book. So it was it was, but it
was just like that's all these crumbs on the way.
You're thinking, oh they would it won't go that direction.
Oh no, they won't do that, and then they do it.
So I agree, like there's Yeah, there's there's stuff out
there that it's like, you're like, oh, okay, that twist,
but you're right, they don't want to and people and
(35:29):
people who hate the Dream season, people who loved it.
It was a whole device. But you know, or or
on days when Lives with Mallet was pressed by the
Devil in the nineties, it was a whole big marlinship,
pressed by the Devil, all that stuff. But it was insane. Yeah. So,
but I actually I got to I got to interview
Drake Houngus and did years later. It's on my channel.
(35:49):
You can watch it my channel. And I had to
ask about that, and but like they said, almost like
you said it was, it was all the story wasn't
really about the devil. The story is about love and
redemption and fight, and the character also helped write the story.
To you, I would just saying earlier.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I'm assuming. I'm assuming your books when it comes to
missing a suspense, the actual thing that happened is just
a conduit right to the actual story. How do you
how do you view that like the actual like it's
a serial killer. Are the killings, I mean, are part
of the story, But like, what part are the story?
Are they that? Right?
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I mean it depends that totally depends on what you're
doing with the story, right. You know, the serial killer
is such a fun tripe to work with because it's
it's very convenient. It is I'm sure you've heard lisay this.
You know, when in doubt bringing a man with a gun. Yes,
that's what the serial killer is. Right, You're stuck and
(36:52):
you can't go any further and you have no idea
what to do, so you drop another body and then oh,
now the story picks up again, right when you don't
have that, you know, and you're trying to propel the
story through and keep the reader engaged. You know, you've
got to You've got to be very careful with what
you give and when you give it. Like we were
talking about earlier, you know, it's it's when that reveal happens. Yes,
(37:18):
I mean I still drop bodies right, left and center
when I get in trouble.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
It is a thriller. I still do have that.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Do that?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Do that?
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, it makes sense. Okay, I was with Scars just
for a second because I'm just really I just want
to curious for you. You have this blog where you're also
talking with other people in the community about writing fiction.
Writing That must seemingly fulfilling, talking to other writers and
exchanging ideas. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
So I I have blogged, gosh, my entire career since
before I had a book deal. I was on a
Friday group blog. I was on a group blog called Murder.
I was the Friday the Friday entrant to that. It
was back before Facebook. It was that was how we
were all communicating with each other, and we had this
great community. And then Facebook came and ruined it for
(38:12):
everybody and all the blog almost all the blogs fell apart,
and now they really did. But now they're all kind
of coming back, not necessarily in that iteration, but they're
coming back. And substack is a really great tool for this.
Everybody who's writing big blogs is there, so there's a
(38:33):
whole community with that, and I was thinking about joining.
I was thinking about moving my blog over there, because again,
discoverability is everything, and I was writing in a silo
and now I'm not, which is wonderful. But in order
to do that, I wanted, you know, I've blogged about
writing for twenty years. What do I really have to
say that nobody has already said a thousand times, Right,
(38:55):
There's only so much you can talk about. So I
decided to live write a book the process of writing book,
and I shared It's called Last Scene. It was my
title last year. It was my twenty twenty five book,
and it took eighteen months. I literally started with the
concept and I detailed every single thing that I did
(39:18):
from concept to publication day. And it turns out there
there's twenty two steps to getting published this, you know,
from from concept to outline, concepts announces, this outline, all
of it. I taught myself how to outline. I'm not
a big outliner, so I could at least explain that
process to people. So it's a it's both a book journal,
(39:41):
which is it is my normal, you know, that's what
I do. I put a book journal together with every book,
and I give myself notes. But it also was an
explanation of craft and a journey through you know, self
doubt and oh my gosh, I have to change all
of this. And here we are midway and I've thrown
the outline out and you know, it was absolutely my
(40:02):
process from start to finish. So that's on the creative edge.
That's behind a paid paywall because I want to make
that a book, so right now it's it's paywalled. But
I also just do a little you know, Friday Reads,
where I talk about what I'm reading and we have
a little community and a little book club, and it's
just my journal. And and you know, I've been doing
it for so long that when I don't do it,
(40:24):
you know, I get all up in the I don't
want to do this anymore. I'm putting too much energy
out there that doesn't everything to do with about And
then I'll skip it for a couple of weeks and
I'll be like, miss it. I just writing about writing
clarifies what I'm doing. So writing about the process of
writing helps me figure out what I'm writing. And that's
(40:45):
just that is just part of my process. So it's
out there for anyone who wants to do a deep
dive into my very weird brain.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
I love it that I would ask you about because
I've won a few awards, I've been nominated for others,
and I I thank you, but I am part of
the Emmy community. What was it like to win an
Emmy what was it?
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Like, completely surreal. So it's for we have a TV
show here in Nashville. It's called a Word on Words.
It has been on for forty and well now fifty years.
John Siegenthaler was the host for forty plus years and
every Sunday morning there was a show with him interviewing
(41:30):
an author and he talked to everyone. Everyone who came
through town he talked to and it was incredible. And
I was on the show a few times as a guest.
And when John passed away, the station approached me and said, hey,
we want to reboot the show. We don't want to
lose the show. Would you be interested in hosting? Which
I said no, of course, not me on camera doing that,
(41:53):
you know, no. But they they talked me into doing
a screen test and I got to do a little bit,
you know, you get there with the cameras and all
of that, and it was like, well, maybe I'll try.
So we just were kicking off our twelfth season. He's
a number two and so so and obviously that worked
(42:14):
out and we're syndicated across PBS now, which is fabulous.
You know, anybody can get on the PBS app and
watch the show. Winning the Emmy was the most surreal
thing in the world. I'm a writer, right, and I'm
not a TV writer, and this was for being on camera.
This was an on camera thing, and and it was
(42:35):
it was really for somebody who is exceptionally shy, afraid
of public speaking, a total introvert. It was really a
signal to me that I can step out of my
comfort zone and do things that I think I can't.
And it opened a lot of doors in me to
(42:55):
stop holding myself back from things because I was you know,
I'm scared, right, I'm scared to be on camera. I'm
scared to have to stand up in front of a
crowd of five hundred people. I'm scared to do that. Well,
guess what, you know, what's gonna happen? Are they going
to rush the stage, throw you down and hit you
in the head. No, of course not. You know, so
it really helped me become a richer person. And the
(43:18):
experience of being able to sit down with other authors.
You know, sitting down with other creatives makes your creative
spirit sore, It really does.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
So it does. I completely agree with that. I call
it natural high because we're talking about that. We both
love and it's in a creative space. So any creative
line will connect to whether you're whether you're a dancer, singer,
you know, actor, write or whatever. Getting yeah right, it's
just a certain way. I just don't when I when
(43:51):
I won my first award and my speech went viral,
it's on it's online, I forgot everything. I mean I
think I was gonna win. I really think I was
gonna win, because again I just was, I'm not gonna
wa I mean I was. The nomination really was nice.
I'm sure you felt the same way.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
It was just like, yeah, thousand, it's all in the nomination.
The nomination is everything.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
If you win, that's candy, right, and that make sure
you get attention. Asked it. That was was. It was good.
And I flown across the country, went to you know,
I went to d C. I was, I was like
out there and and when they called my name, I
didn't believe it. And I was like sitting there my
friend and she goes, get your award. Yeah, And I
really And it's funny because I I think we've all
(44:30):
on some level maybe at some time thought about if
that won an a war, would I say or whatever?
Speaker 2 (44:38):
You really really love me, right. Everybody's scared they're gonna
get up there and say that. But that's what it
feels like. That is that I love I love her reaction,
because that is what it feels like. It's like, oh
my gosh, all of you love me right now, and
you have all decided that I'm the best of the
(44:59):
best in this moment, and it is it is overwhelming,
and it is heady, and it really does. I mean,
I totally understand, Oh my god, you love me.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah, because my daughter, my daughters were like, you didn't
say our names. I go, I want to think my
children and grandchildren. I can think, I can remember your name,
I can read what are your names? Oh? Where are you?
I said? In that moment, I saw the people smiling
at me. Kind of the lights are right there. I'll
think about the tiny said thirty one second. I'm like,
I'm trying to think of all these things. Blank my speech.
(45:33):
I guess the people loved it whatever, but it's just
I was just kind of like, but it's just again,
we don't do this for awards. I mean, if I
never won.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Award, that's the candy. Yeah, that's the candy.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
This my reward, My award is I get to sit
here and talk to you people like you every day
and make that my living. And so that to me
is hands down. If I just rest of them, I
can wheel me in. Andy Rooney was nine in on
the computer or whatever the future has in front of us.
I can still talk. I was still I'm gonna be
(46:05):
interviewing people.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Right right offload our consciousness and let it go.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Well exactly, you'll be on your one hundredth book and
be great. It's be great. It's great. We're gonna be
still talking, Jamis, our heads are.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Gonna be in a jar. We're gonna float on stage,
James and Jtu right.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Hi kids, exactly. So I'm I was looking for to you.
The book is called you Know Why, and you Know
Why because you need to go get it Amazon, Barge
and Noball and big box stores, but also independent bookshops.
We I'm leave the mom and pops and you're the
ones like Powells Books and Oregon or that was the
last bookstore in Los Angeles. There's some's some great great
(46:42):
independent bookstores. I'm blaking out on the website that has
the books, that has them. They have a list.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
So it's bookshop, bookshop dot orgy yep, and you can.
You can name which independent bookstore you want to support,
and then all of the all of the books that
you buy, they get the support from you. And they've
got ebooks on there now too, which is really cool.
But yeah, we love our indies. We've got we've got
(47:08):
a great one. We've got a bunch of great ones here.
We've got Parnassis, a friend of mine just open one
called Bound Bookstore. That's who's my indie bookstore is on
bookshop right now, is Bound Books. Because I'm helping her
get on her feet.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
I understand, folks, I mean, trust me, we both understand
that night. I'm always for the underdog. So like just
think it's just it's absolutely always always. But you know,
wise book, Thank you j T for being on the show.
You have to come back to your next book. You
have to come back.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
I would love to do that. This has been so
much fun.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
If you can get rid of me that easily, you
have to come back for the next book. I will
third person, first person. I want to I want to
see how this turns out.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
If they want to follow you on social media or websites,
are Okay, you tell and I'll put in a show
notes of course, but can you tell them?
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Sure? So, my website's jt Ellison dot com. I am
Thriller Chick on all the social media and obviously you
can come by the Creative Edge on substack and subscribe
to get all kinds of good things.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yes, and please do that. Our show is on Facebook
between Paine and James Jr. But I am everywhere James
lot Junior or JLJ Media on all every platform, all everywhere,
all our place. Just type it in, I will pop
up and hopefully I'm I'm everywhere, So go ahead and
follow me. I'll make sure I'm following her too. Now
(48:28):
and it's like that thriller chick. I love that. Follow her,
follow me, follow us. If you have an author, you
want me to talk to you. Seventy year low DM,
I like, I like to say, I hear from everybody.
We're here, we're here, we celebrate the art of writing.
It's such a it's such a beautiful thing, and we
need things. We need the distractions very much. And we'll
(48:50):
see you next time.
All right, folks, welcome to another edition of it. Between
the pattern James lot Junior, It's me James ut Junior.
Here are my channel, j l J Media. I know
it's gonna be some initials for you today. You guys
call me JLJ all the time. Come a three word
person name, thank god, whatever. But I also like people
would have initials for their names. And so my latest
guest today is a New York Times selling and USA
(00:27):
Today best selling author of or thirty novels. She us
have been five when she started, including the Lieutenant Jack
Taylor Jackson series, the Doctor Samantha Owen series. And she
also has an Emmy Award winning co host of a
Word on Words okay, folks on PBS, So she's a
Emmy winner, as you know. On our our channel we
(00:49):
talk about I'm an Emmy Judge, Emmy voter, So that's
kind of the nice. So she also says on I
don't read everything on him, but I just says that
she's also published The Creative Edge, a newsletter and blog
for writers navigating the craft the business of fiction, which
we always could use that for those kind of communities.
But I love this part. This part makes me just smile.
(01:11):
She lives with her husband and twin kittens. That makes
me just want to, like, I just want to just
smile from ear to ear. Help me welcome with her
new book You Know Why. And if you're watching, it's
behind me. If you're listening, it's called you Know Why.
J t Ellison.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Okay, yeah, James, it's good to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Same here. First of all, congratulations you've given birth to
another book. Yep here. I'm I have asked this question anybody,
but I'm asking of you after writing so many books
that talk to people who are to begetting into careers
or just their last book. I mean, I've done both.
But you're somewhere in the middle, somebody like you. You've
(01:52):
done enough books, You've done this. You know what this
is like? What keeps you motivated in writing and releasing material?
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Well, the readers, I mean, I want to give them
something right, But it can't just be about them. It
has to be for me. I have to write for myself.
I have to, you know, create something that makes me
want to get up in the morning and come to
my desk and experience a story. And it can be
incredibly frustrating, and it can be incredibly rewarding. But I
(02:26):
just have so many stories to tell. I have a
lot of stories to tell and things that I want
to try, genres that I haven't tried yet, just so
many things that I want to do.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
That.
Speaker 2 (02:37):
Yeah, it gets me up and it keeps me up
at night sometimes thinking, you know, how, what am I
going to do tomorrow? How am I going to do this?
What am I going to do? It's it's just I
love my job. I'm incredibly blessed to have a job
that I love, that I'm good at, that I can
get paid for, and that lets me stay home with
the cats.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
What you just said actually falls in line. I've interviewed actors, actresses, musicians, whatever,
and it sounds like for the folks who do who
are and it's in the long haul, the longevity I
call the long timers. We don't say old anymore. That
word's gone long timers. It sounds like a through line
(03:22):
is interest. You're still interested?
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Aren't you? In the craft? In the in How how
can I get better? How can I You know, I've
got a lot of accolades, and that's phenomenal, and those
are all you really need, those to keep you in it.
Right to keep your ego in this because it's art.
You know, if you're creating art and you're not getting
a response, it's very very hard on you. And I've
(03:48):
been lucky enough to get a good response. But there's
just something about the creation of being someplace at the
end of the day where you had no idea you
were going to be, where the story has taken over
and taken you and you've gotten into a flow state
and you've actually written something and you look back on
it and you're like, wow, that's that's actually pretty good,
(04:10):
or wow, that's going to need some work. But either way,
you've created something. You've made something out of nothing, and
any artist in any genre is going to understand how
that makes you feel. It's it's intoxicated.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It is. It's one of those it's okay, you're sorry
about that. It's it's very much this year. You create this,
You get to create this world and it's yours to
play in. You create your own playground. Yes, and that's
what I think that's the best part of this. And
then again we were saying before we came on a
show about something another show, actually with you, you can
(04:46):
it may chant to me. It may be purple, it
may chance to be something you don't know where it's
going to go. You have no idea. If you let it,
if you allow yourself right to ride the journey, then
you go plau I always say people a w I
say you should read a book. It'll take you place
as you've never been before. I guess the same was
writing a book down, so writing would be it's the same.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Thing, absolutely, because there's and and there's so many different
ways to do it, and every book is different. I mean,
oh my gosh, if they were all the same and
you could sit down and just bang it out, it
would make life easier. But I don't know that it
would be as fun. I mean, every book is a challenge.
Every book is its own mountain to climb. And I
(05:27):
used to as a baby author, I used to hear
the career author say that, and I'd be like, what
are you talking about? You know Tess Garretts and used
to say, I don't remember how to do it. Every
time I sit down at the page, I have to
relearn how to write a book. And you know, oh my gosh,
she's so right. It's just every single time it's something
new and that's you know, obviously that keeps your interest, right.
(05:49):
It's really easy to stay engaged when it's a daily challenge.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Yeah. It's like my buddy Lee Goldberg, who's another bestselling.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yeah I know Lee.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
Oh I love Lee and he's hilarious and his brother Todd,
well hilarious. And but you're saying, he's like, there's times
when he's like, I don't I have ideas of what
I want to write, but I have to grab them.
That's the challenge every book is grabbing the ideas and
putting them into a book. Like that's all point. We
have a lot of ideas. You have a million ideas
probably right now throwing around, don't you.
Speaker 2 (06:20):
Oh yeah, tons, But you have to you do. You
have to grab them, you have to write them down.
Stephen King always says, if it's a great idea will
stay with you and you don't have to write it down.
And that's that's true on a macro level, for sure.
On the micro level, you know, I'll have a line
of dialogue and it's like I'll be sitting at dinner,
(06:40):
I'll be with friends and be like old please, and
everybody knows, you know, it's like okay, whatever, and I
either grab my notebook or I'm writing it on my phone.
You know, you do you you snatch those things away
because they go away, those fun little micro things go away,
and you never want that to happen.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So so I write audio dramas and so about twenty
five of them on my network. And I remember I
dreamt of the words depressed horse, Oh why am you
can see? Because'm a big Stephen King fan, so speaking
of that, it stuck with me for two years to
pressed horse just press didn't know what it meant. I
(07:20):
didn't know because I'm also a songwriter, so I know
it is the song? Is it? This is a poem?
I mean, I had no idea, but I didn't. I
didn't force it. I just kind of just kind of
I wrote other things like you said, your regular stuff.
But it stuck with me. But then the idea came
to me early this year as an audio drama and
it's out now. I'm backing the Stairs out now. That
was doing pretty well. But it's about a guy goes
(07:44):
to a therapist. It's the therapy sessions every week, and
there's a lot of horse and equme metaphors. So so
what we're finding out is is he talking about an
actual horse or is it means something else? And then
the actual little spoiler alert the therapist all of a sudden,
(08:08):
she's craving oatmeal and craving and watching westerns and she's
like this and she has her own therapists. So they
say there have their own therapist and she's like, like,
is this case too much? It's like, so that's kind
of something. But but you said it sat around for years.
I had no idea what it just and but this
(08:29):
seemed to go with this and so.
Speaker 2 (08:34):
Now I want to listen to this because.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
That's anywhere anywhere he goes anywhere. It's all the streaming
plat ones. But for you, so with this story, m hm,
where did the genesis of this story come from?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Years ago? Idea?
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Okay, so they don't want to I.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Mean, yeah, that's that is. You have to know when
something is an idea that needs to percolate, right when
you just need to put it aside. You need to
hold on to it because it's going to come back
around and you're going to find the story for it.
And that was that was this. So it's a combination.
So it's a dual narrative. So it's a combination of
actually two ideas. One I travel a lot, and I'm
(09:18):
always in the airport watching people going what would happen
if they just walked out? You know, what would happen
if if, you know, they go to get a drink
and they never come back, right, So that's one idea,
and the other I was on a plane. This was
over over ten years ago. I was on a plane.
(09:39):
My husband and I were going through infertility treatments and
not succeeding at it, and I was so I'm tuned
up on all the hormones and I'm already pissed off.
And there's this beautiful families sitting in front of me.
There's two adorable kids, this stunningly beautiful mom and this
really handsome dad, and they they're fighting. The two of
(10:03):
them are arguing over something so banal. It was something
like the sunscreen wasn't right, you know, And I was
so mad at them, just this visceral anger. And you know,
I know it was the hormones that I know, you know,
but it's like you do not realize what you have,
you know, And I don't think people do realize what they have.
(10:24):
They complain. You know, the kids are home from school.
Oh my god, it's a snow day. What are we
going to do? It's like, oh, you are so blessed,
you just don't see that, right, And so I tucked
both of those away, and I pulled both of them
out and turned them into We called it the Airplane Book.
For a really long time. It all happened. You know,
all the inciting incidents are in the airport airplane.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
And so when I told my my editor was talking,
you know, what are we going to do next? And
I told her, I said, well, here's here's my idea.
It's a dual narrative. The first narrative a woman is
on a trip and her husband goes missing from the airport.
And the other part of the narrative is a woman
on a plane who sees a couple arguing and realizes
(11:10):
that the man is the person who murdered her sister
ten years earlier. Yeah, and she was like, write that, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
That's the book.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Yeah, So that's you know, that's what I did. So
it is a dual narrative story that that came from
two you know, very disparate moments that I just held
on to you just hold on to it until it's time.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
That's so cool. Here's a question for you. I kind
of want to say it this way because this is obvious.
The characters come from you. You're the creator. So I'm
sure parts of you, parts of people, you know about
all that stuff is, and then just just create that.
(11:56):
Everybody's the amalgamation of stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:57):
I'm sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely, But.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
I've I think what I want to ask you is,
as you're writing the book, right, I'll ask for this book.
As you're writing this book, do you become that lead character?
Do you do you kind of mail? Are you a
twin thread with that character? Are you still able to
be I'm up here and I'm writing about like what
is that about for you?
Speaker 2 (12:21):
That's interesting. That's a really good question because like in
my Taylor Jackson series, the first books that I was writing,
she's a homicide detective. I am not a homicide detective.
You know, the some total, the sum total of what
I knew about police work was what I saw in
Law and Order. Right, I had no idea. I just
wanted to write that kind of character because she's, you know,
(12:43):
just this fabulous hero, right, iconic kind of hero. So
she was born out of my own hero complex, right I.
You know, I would drive down the highway and I
would imagine a car driving off and hitting a guardrail
and flipping and catching on fire, and I would stop
and I would go and help, and then I would
(13:04):
get back in my car and leave before the you know,
that kind of stuff, the overactive imagination that we all
all writers have. So she was that for me. She
was the She was the hero that I always would
hope that if I was in a situation, a life
or death situation, that I would rise to that occasion.
I don't know, Thank god, I haven't had to test
(13:28):
right knocking on wood here. But so for her, absolutely,
she is very much aligned with who I see myself
as some of the other characters I would not say
that about they are people who either like and it's
one of us. Olivia is a designer and architectural designer.
(13:52):
That's a job that I would love to have, right,
I would love to be able to go in and
tear down houses and rebuild them and decorate them. I
think that would be really fun as a job. So
so I often will create a character who has a
facet of me that I would like to explore. There's
(14:13):
a lot, there's many, many lines of mental health through
all of my books. It has affected our family very
very deeply, and I like to explore that I have
and tear me apart. The main character is a skier.
She's a young teenage ski phenom. I was a skier.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
You know.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
That's so. Yes, Yes, they are definitely offshoots of various means,
but in you know, blown up ways, much bigger scope, broader,
much broader. Yeah, and they're you know, they're often good
at what they do, which is always helpful.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Well what does that mean? What psychology does that mean
for you? Are you say you know you'll feel as
what you do that? Oh?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Absolutely, I mean I was not there the day they
passed out the gene for decorating. I was not there
that day. I do not have that. Architecturally, I can.
I can envision, you know, a building and what I want,
but the details of making it pretty, No, I was
not there that day.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
I was.
Speaker 2 (15:23):
I was a mediocre skier at best. Funny, you know, so,
so it's it's elements of things that I wish I
could succeed at that.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
But because you actually mean the person's actually fulfilling your destiny.
But on page it's like exactly, they get to go further.
That's really only about reading books because sometimes when you
read books, you start you you know, you identify with
a character in the book, you follow it's journey and
he gets to kind of feel you know that this
ending is happy, great, it's a happy ending great, or
(15:55):
this ending is like really sad. That's interesting. I love.
That's what I love about books because you just never
know where it's gonna go.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
And the connection with the with the character is everything.
That's why they always everybody asks what's more important the
character or the plot? And I'm a thriller writer, so
obviously the plot is hugely important, but the character is everything.
If you don't have a character that the reader connects with,
then the whole story is gonna fall apart.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
That's I'm just gonna say that, right, And that's been
I mean, here's a great here's a great question about
that too. Is that I always feel like, because I
work in TV and stuff, you can have character driven plot.
Sometimes characters can drive plots. Mm hm. It's a tricky thing.
I mean, it has that'd be a good story. But
(16:40):
like they say on stage, but they want a page.
And on stage it's like, if you have a good
central story, it's plausible and we are even whimsical, but
a good story in the center, it can almost come
alive in any way you want. Right, that's all point.
So for you as an author, it's always a dual
(17:02):
purpose for you too, it's basically it is it's it's
because you're a thriller writer. It is character and actually
you do biomic. You're talking, you're doing both, right, can
you actually the character is compelling? Oh no, let me
ask you this question. So in that scenario, what are
some of the major things you you are thinking about?
But sual it comes to your major characters, and that's thriller.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
They have to be compelling. That that's the right word
for it. They have to be compelling. They have to
be understandable. You have to understand their motivations, even if
you don't like them. You know, you don't have to
approve of their motivations, but you have to understand why
they're doing it. And you know that's in suspense. A
lot of a lot of what we do is you know,
(17:48):
what is this motivation? And that's the driver through the
whole story is trying to figure out what the character's
motivation really is.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
And what kills me is when I've seen some not
so well done some time you plight because Ryan book
is you know, I stobb anybody writes books, but I
have written read some books, or watch some TV show
mystery shows that I fight. The basic the premise of
(18:18):
the lead character not letting us in on things. That's
what hurts it. And I and I, you know, am
for example of somebody who's really good. I was thinking.
I was thinking of the TV show Dallas. Everybody remembers Dallas.
Back in the day, it was everything. J R. Ewing
was the guy you love to hate, right He's one
of the first kind of anti heroes. It was like,
(18:39):
but he lets you know. There were certain things he loved,
and he knew what his motivations were and did think
you didn't like. You know, It's like he did love
his family on some level, but he just felt like,
you just do anything I say. We just do whatever
I say. We get along great. But they fight him,
you know, they fight them up. But it's like there's
a whole there's a whole thing with the character letting
the audience snow. So how do you temper that when
(19:03):
you do stories where you're like, Okay, I got the
audience in on this now, so they kind of give it,
I mean, not give to you. It must be a
tough thing too, it.
Speaker 2 (19:12):
Is, And it honestly just depends on which kind of
story you're telling. Are you Are you writing a thriller
in which the reader knows more than the main character
about what's going on? Yes, or are you writing a
mystery in which the reader is finding out everything as
the character does. Are what point of view are you using?
(19:34):
Are you in a first person mystery where literally every
step the reader is going to be lockstep with you
discovering the story, or are you you know, are you
in first person and third person present tense? You know?
I'm writing one right now that has like every point
of view in it, which may or may not work
(19:55):
in the end, but it adds. It's this such a
delicate of when do I let the reader in? And
I struggle with that on every book, you know, unless
I'm doing something like with a serial killer, and then
we're in the serial killer's point of view and we know,
you know, And that's just a pure thriller. But for suspense,
(20:20):
suspense is this weird genre that doesn't even really exist,
you know, it doesn't have a bisack code at all.
It's not you know, in the Dewey decimal systems, suspense
is not a thing. So we're straddling mystery and thriller
with some Gothic overtones and all of the elements to
(20:40):
try to keep you connected with this reader, i mean,
with this character and not get you bored with the story,
and have that suspense and have that dread, that line
of dread that pulls you through it. And it's it's
difficult to know when to let the rere in. It
(21:01):
is really difficult to know. And that's just comes with
you know, revision and find you know, finding. Oh wait,
this is the point where I want to do that.
I mean, I'm doing that in this book that I'm writing.
It's a mystery until it's not, and then it's a thriller.
And it's that's challenging ansk you.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
This question too, that's kind of related to it. Well,
you're doing a thriller or a mystery. Do you have
like some notes on the side that reminds you that
on page fifty five you said this, and page eighty
five you said, like, do you have like breadcrumb like
a lot of mysteries is like you drop hints and
things throughout the book to make this make sense in
(21:43):
the end. How do you keep that? Because I know
I'm talking to somebody. Some authors will go, yeah, I
got what I said on page one forty seven. I
had to go back and really chant you know, you
know it because because that person was so writing the
book and so other things, other great ideas came later,
they don't make sense to that early ideal they had.
So I just wanted for you. Do you have like
(22:04):
an outline of like like best bits or some like
okay story is this? You know, that's the that's the
husband who killed that's the man who killed my You
have like the I mean you have that on how
do you manage that?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
So I use scribner when I'm working, and when I
hit one of those, I will I will highlight it
as a comment, and I'll leave myself a comment right there,
you know, And and then I go back through the
comments and I make sure things match up very good,
and if it doesn't, if I've pulled a thread, then
I can just delete that comment, and I don't need
to worry about it, but that breadcrumb is still there,
(22:40):
you know, if I decided not to go in that direction,
so that my manuscript is littered with comments of you know,
don't forget about this, this is a lie. She did
this because of X. You know, I do. I I
find having an institute is much easier than than the notes.
(23:00):
But once I got a draft, then I'll go through
and I'll like write down, Okay, there here's X, here's why.
And then the copy editors. I rely on my copy editors,
I really do. I have Happily, I've had the same
team for the past few books. This will be the
fourth book we do together. And they know my style,
(23:22):
they know my weaknesses, and and so they're on the
they're on the lookout for these things as well. So
they're a huge help.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Because if you say, you know, blue Eye Susie, and
then later on I heard and then Mark.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
There's always that. I mean, there's there's always that kind
of stuff. I got myself in trouble with timelines. If
I can just write a sequential story that's all takes place,
and I don't have any backstory, and I don't have
to do math.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I mean, writer, math is just wrong.
Speaker 2 (23:58):
Why do we do this to ourselves? It's not fair.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
I'm not gonna math either. I'm not not good math.
I'm not good math. I'm gonna read a passage just
for the author so you can hear how I mean,
I'm sure you'll hear it sounds with the audio verson,
but this is I lubricated my voice with coffee. I'm
gonna do my best, and here we go. I pocket
(24:23):
the wallet, get the film loaded into place, and snap
the back of the camera closed. Time to test my theory.
In the kitchen, you can eat in a Margo sit
at the table, their heads together, chatting animatedly. I raise
the camera to my eye, stares through the viewfinder and
(24:44):
eating barrow. The woman is pretty, but not conventionally beautiful.
Her dark blonde hair slick back into a low bun.
Her eyes are hazel, her features are softened by weariness.
Her nose is sharp with a gentle slope. Her lips
are touched too full. I think she's had discreet work done.
(25:11):
She is locked on Margo in a fairal way, and
that sends warning signals down my spine. Eden isn't Margo's
usual type, but that doesn't mean anything. Margo's defense of
a woman now makes more sense. She likes her. They've
known each other for several days. That's long enough for
(25:31):
my sentimental sister to get attached. I strain my brain
trying to master the features of the woman at the
table with the silhouette from my darkened mind, but it
doesn't work. Too bad. The camera trick would have been
a really great tool, because my sister seems so animated.
(25:51):
I try to swallow the misgivings and chalk up, chalk
my reaction up to the face blindness. It is disconcerting,
for sure, but right now I need my sisters and
this woman's help. If Eden Barrow knows something about Trey,
I need to find out what it is.
Speaker 2 (26:13):
Don't don't dun so that's my I don't think it
beautifully done.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Thank you, j I don't think I give anything to
switch away. But it's pastors I really liked towards. I'm
not gonna say it's the book. Don't aware that I thought,
what a great you. Literally you gave what you set
up a stage. We're there and I'm there in the room.
I'm I feel like I'm behind him as his dealing
(26:40):
camera ready, and I see him see I see him
seeing them and he's trying to figure this stuff out,
but he needs Eden. He also gave us a little
thing about his sister, like if there's so much going
on that in that scene.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, Brooklyn, Brooklyn. She has this really horrible problem in
the book, and it was a it was a big
problem for me writing the book too. There was a
huge challenge there. But the chance she ends up with
face blindness and she has this cool, you know trick
she she puts the camera up and then she sees
(27:18):
the things that she you know, thought that she should.
But that that is a huge moment in the book
where she's realizing, oh, something else is going on here.
Maybe I can't trust the people around me, and and
that's always a horrible that realization of wait a second,
(27:39):
there's something else going on and and perhaps I need
to step back and look at it through a different
lens metaphorically and literally.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
And literally, yes, exactly. I went to it recently myself,
with some with some cousins went through that, so I
am wow, I did it. I was like, oh wow,
this is not what I thought it was. And I
was really I was kind of surrounded. So and at
this point I'll talk to any from now, but it's
all the story. But it was like but the realization
(28:11):
was like, and you really do get you put on
you have put on a whole different like lens to
look at it now, like, oh, okay, I think in
life and maybe this book also talks about this, you
kind of go a certain way. You have you have
learned behaviors, right, that's why you have learned behaviors. So
you act accordingly, right to learn behaviors, and then something
(28:32):
else comes up and butt up against it and you.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
Have And that's I mean, that's the fun. That's the
fun of a of a thriller. Of all of this
is putting the the character in an untenable situation to
see how they react and are they going to fall
back on their old paths and what they know to
do or are they going to grow? And if they
don't grow, you know, something bad is probably going to
(28:58):
happen to them. They have to change. Know, we were
forcing them out of the chrysalis, We're forcing them to
become a butterfly, and and you know some some succeeded
that and some do not. Some come out and get
eaten by a bird the first second they're out.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Yes, some don't agree.
Speaker 2 (29:17):
To South America. You know, you just don't know right.
Speaker 1 (29:19):
Right, As a reader, you're going, oh my god, will
they change? Will they catch this? Will they get it?
That's what a good book would do, right, We're like,
oh my goodness. I'm like I said, I felt like
I was behind him going, you know, looking that direction. Yeah, noticing.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
I'm glad. I'm glad because if you're in TV and
you've got all of that experience, that's I try to
write in a very cinematic way. You know, I want
you to be able to be looking at this scene
through the character's eyes and seeing what they're seeing.
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Oh I I I completely okay, little expansion. What I
what I felt is, oh, the cameras looking in the
room and I see a table, two women facing each other,
heads together, and all you see is the back of
his head getting the camera up and then you see
(30:10):
the view what he's seeing. That was the whole thing
of going in and out. I also director, so in
and out and I can, I can, I can literally
see that, and then and almost doing some kind of
fun to work with that where you don't hear them,
they're panomime acting, they're talking, you know what they're saying,
and he kind of maybe even shadowy on some level.
Maybe it's a window in front. I don't I don't know,
(30:32):
but that that's how I felt I read that scene
and that he's then you go, maybe turning Canter back
on him, the one eye looking in there, and and
have the overhead, the overheim what do you call it,
narration of him saying those words, were saying like, that's
not usually her type, and what's going on? But I
(30:53):
really need eating to tell So I I saw it
very I saw it very clearly, and so I so, hey,
it's could be a series or a TV movie or something.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Oh, this one lends itself to the screen without a doubt,
without a doubt.
Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah, I think so, I think I think it can.
So that's why I'm like, I'm not surprised that there's just.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
There's so many you know, it's got a good ABCD stories,
everybody's got a roll, there's a lot of machinations, there's
a lot of cool ways to put it all together,
and then they when they collide. Wow, I mean that
is that is epic season and right season season.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Yeah, and yes, yes, I went away. Here's the thing.
This is called between the pages. How do you how
did you know where to end this book? The book?
How do you know when end? How do you know?
It's like, okay, this is good.
Speaker 2 (31:51):
Another challenge, right, it's another huge challenge. It's like, okay,
we're one hundred and twenty thousand words in, we got
right story that I this one in particular, I did
not know exactly how it was going to end, and
I was able to bookend it in a way that
(32:14):
I don't normally get. The beautiful symmetry of the book
ends of here's where it started and here's where it ends,
and they match so beautifully. I mean, any any thriller
is you open with a question, you end with the answer,
and everything in between is in service of discovering the answer.
(32:35):
Every once in a while, though, you get to have
these really lovely bookends to the story, and that that
came at the last minute. I don't normally know my endings.
I really experienced this one as I was writing it,
which was a lot of fun. I just didn't quite
know where I was going, and it worked. It worked
(33:00):
out really really well. And you know, I also I
do think in terms of what is season two? And
so there's always a little door. Series, it's very easy
to leave a door open, right, but in standalones it's
much much harder. And I think we saw that in
big little lies, you know, this Juggernaut show, and what
(33:21):
do we do next?
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
How do we continue this story when it was a
big standalone? So I always keep that in the back
of my mind, is how am I going to make
season two?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
What?
Speaker 2 (33:30):
What am I going to sit down with? You know,
if I'm in a writer's room, how am I going
to expand this story? And I was able to pull
that in this one, to have just the teensiest sliver
of light under the door?
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Well could write it, could write anything.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
So sure, sure, and you can lie, I mean, you
know exactly. You know, you don't have to tell the truth.
Speaker 1 (33:54):
Like about Dallas. That one season was a dream.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
So right, you go back see and but you gotta
be careful with those kinds of devices because the reader,
the viewer, they can feel tricked. You don't want to
trick them. You want to trick them, but only in
a way that they were like, oh my god, of
course it was there all along. I saw it and
I missed it. You know that sleight of hand is
(34:20):
everything in these kinds of stories.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
And we mentioned Stephen King. I'll tell you when I
read Kujo, that's what stands out for me. The book
was very different in the movie ending, folks, as much
as let you know that right now, like it's a
very different ending. And I but that was the thing
that it was. I I thought when I was reading,
(34:43):
I think I was thinking of movie endings that it
would not go that direction. I'm like, I was boiler
Frey blah blah blah. No, but if you saw a movie,
you know how to know that one. But the book
was I thought, what a great way to end it. Though,
that's kind of it was kind of like got it.
It's like, gotcha. Even when I read carry the book
before the movie we saw the movie, it's it's pretty good.
(35:07):
Like it's like, oh and the movie pretty much did
like the book. So it was it was, but it
was just like that's all these crumbs on the way.
You're thinking, oh they would it won't go that direction.
Oh no, they won't do that, and then they do it.
So I agree, like there's Yeah, there's there's stuff out
there that it's like, you're like, oh, okay, that twist,
but you're right, they don't want to and people and
(35:29):
people who hate the Dream season, people who loved it.
It was a whole device. But you know, or or
on days when Lives with Mallet was pressed by the
Devil in the nineties, it was a whole big marlinship,
pressed by the Devil, all that stuff. But it was insane. Yeah. So,
but I actually I got to I got to interview
Drake Houngus and did years later. It's on my channel.
(35:49):
You can watch it my channel. And I had to
ask about that, and but like they said, almost like
you said it was, it was all the story wasn't
really about the devil. The story is about love and
redemption and fight, and the character also helped write the story.
To you, I would just saying earlier.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
Yeah, yeah, you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I'm assuming. I'm assuming your books when it comes to
missing a suspense, the actual thing that happened is just
a conduit right to the actual story. How do you
how do you view that like the actual like it's
a serial killer. Are the killings, I mean, are part
of the story, But like, what part are the story?
Are they that? Right?
Speaker 2 (36:31):
I mean it depends that totally depends on what you're
doing with the story, right. You know, the serial killer
is such a fun tripe to work with because it's
it's very convenient. It is I'm sure you've heard lisay this.
You know, when in doubt bringing a man with a gun. Yes,
that's what the serial killer is. Right, You're stuck and
(36:52):
you can't go any further and you have no idea
what to do, so you drop another body and then oh,
now the story picks up again, right when you don't
have that, you know, and you're trying to propel the
story through and keep the reader engaged. You know, you've
got to You've got to be very careful with what
you give and when you give it. Like we were
talking about earlier, you know, it's it's when that reveal happens. Yes,
(37:18):
I mean I still drop bodies right, left and center
when I get in trouble.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
That's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (37:25):
It is a thriller. I still do have that.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
Do that?
Speaker 2 (37:29):
Do that?
Speaker 1 (37:29):
Yeah, it makes sense. Okay, I was with Scars just
for a second because I'm just really I just want
to curious for you. You have this blog where you're also
talking with other people in the community about writing fiction.
Writing That must seemingly fulfilling, talking to other writers and
exchanging ideas. Tell me about that.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
So I I have blogged, gosh, my entire career since
before I had a book deal. I was on a
Friday group blog. I was on a group blog called Murder.
I was the Friday the Friday entrant to that. It
was back before Facebook. It was that was how we
were all communicating with each other, and we had this
great community. And then Facebook came and ruined it for
(38:12):
everybody and all the blog almost all the blogs fell apart,
and now they really did. But now they're all kind
of coming back, not necessarily in that iteration, but they're
coming back. And substack is a really great tool for this.
Everybody who's writing big blogs is there, so there's a
(38:33):
whole community with that, and I was thinking about joining.
I was thinking about moving my blog over there, because again,
discoverability is everything, and I was writing in a silo
and now I'm not, which is wonderful. But in order
to do that, I wanted, you know, I've blogged about
writing for twenty years. What do I really have to
say that nobody has already said a thousand times, Right,
(38:55):
There's only so much you can talk about. So I
decided to live write a book the process of writing book,
and I shared It's called Last Scene. It was my
title last year. It was my twenty twenty five book,
and it took eighteen months. I literally started with the
concept and I detailed every single thing that I did
(39:18):
from concept to publication day. And it turns out there
there's twenty two steps to getting published this, you know,
from from concept to outline, concepts announces, this outline, all
of it. I taught myself how to outline. I'm not
a big outliner, so I could at least explain that
process to people. So it's a it's both a book journal,
(39:41):
which is it is my normal, you know, that's what
I do. I put a book journal together with every book,
and I give myself notes. But it also was an
explanation of craft and a journey through you know, self
doubt and oh my gosh, I have to change all
of this. And here we are midway and I've thrown
the outline out and you know, it was absolutely my
(40:02):
process from start to finish. So that's on the creative edge.
That's behind a paid paywall because I want to make
that a book, so right now it's it's paywalled. But
I also just do a little you know, Friday Reads,
where I talk about what I'm reading and we have
a little community and a little book club, and it's
just my journal. And and you know, I've been doing
it for so long that when I don't do it,
(40:24):
you know, I get all up in the I don't
want to do this anymore. I'm putting too much energy
out there that doesn't everything to do with about And
then I'll skip it for a couple of weeks and
I'll be like, miss it. I just writing about writing
clarifies what I'm doing. So writing about the process of
writing helps me figure out what I'm writing. And that's
(40:45):
just that is just part of my process. So it's
out there for anyone who wants to do a deep
dive into my very weird brain.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
I love it that I would ask you about because
I've won a few awards, I've been nominated for others,
and I I thank you, but I am part of
the Emmy community. What was it like to win an
Emmy what was it?
Speaker 2 (41:09):
Like, completely surreal. So it's for we have a TV
show here in Nashville. It's called a Word on Words.
It has been on for forty and well now fifty years.
John Siegenthaler was the host for forty plus years and
every Sunday morning there was a show with him interviewing
(41:30):
an author and he talked to everyone. Everyone who came
through town he talked to and it was incredible. And
I was on the show a few times as a guest.
And when John passed away, the station approached me and said, hey,
we want to reboot the show. We don't want to
lose the show. Would you be interested in hosting? Which
I said no, of course, not me on camera doing that,
(41:53):
you know, no. But they they talked me into doing
a screen test and I got to do a little bit,
you know, you get there with the cameras and all
of that, and it was like, well, maybe I'll try.
So we just were kicking off our twelfth season. He's
a number two and so so and obviously that worked
(42:14):
out and we're syndicated across PBS now, which is fabulous.
You know, anybody can get on the PBS app and
watch the show. Winning the Emmy was the most surreal
thing in the world. I'm a writer, right, and I'm
not a TV writer, and this was for being on camera.
This was an on camera thing, and and it was
(42:35):
it was really for somebody who is exceptionally shy, afraid
of public speaking, a total introvert. It was really a
signal to me that I can step out of my
comfort zone and do things that I think I can't.
And it opened a lot of doors in me to
(42:55):
stop holding myself back from things because I was you know,
I'm scared, right, I'm scared to be on camera. I'm
scared to have to stand up in front of a
crowd of five hundred people. I'm scared to do that. Well,
guess what, you know, what's gonna happen? Are they going
to rush the stage, throw you down and hit you
in the head. No, of course not. You know, so
it really helped me become a richer person. And the
(43:18):
experience of being able to sit down with other authors.
You know, sitting down with other creatives makes your creative
spirit sore, It really does.
Speaker 1 (43:29):
So it does. I completely agree with that. I call
it natural high because we're talking about that. We both
love and it's in a creative space. So any creative
line will connect to whether you're whether you're a dancer, singer,
you know, actor, write or whatever. Getting yeah right, it's
just a certain way. I just don't when I when
(43:51):
I won my first award and my speech went viral,
it's on it's online, I forgot everything. I mean I
think I was gonna win. I really think I was
gonna win, because again I just was, I'm not gonna
wa I mean I was. The nomination really was nice.
I'm sure you felt the same way.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
It was just like, yeah, thousand, it's all in the nomination.
The nomination is everything.
Speaker 1 (44:09):
If you win, that's candy, right, and that make sure
you get attention. Asked it. That was was. It was good.
And I flown across the country, went to you know,
I went to d C. I was, I was like
out there and and when they called my name, I
didn't believe it. And I was like sitting there my
friend and she goes, get your award. Yeah, And I
really And it's funny because I I think we've all
(44:30):
on some level maybe at some time thought about if
that won an a war, would I say or whatever?
Speaker 2 (44:38):
You really really love me, right. Everybody's scared they're gonna
get up there and say that. But that's what it
feels like. That is that I love I love her reaction,
because that is what it feels like. It's like, oh
my gosh, all of you love me right now, and
you have all decided that I'm the best of the
(44:59):
best in this moment, and it is it is overwhelming,
and it is heady, and it really does. I mean,
I totally understand, Oh my god, you love me.
Speaker 1 (45:10):
Yeah, because my daughter, my daughters were like, you didn't
say our names. I go, I want to think my
children and grandchildren. I can think, I can remember your name,
I can read what are your names? Oh? Where are you?
I said? In that moment, I saw the people smiling
at me. Kind of the lights are right there. I'll
think about the tiny said thirty one second. I'm like,
I'm trying to think of all these things. Blank my speech.
(45:33):
I guess the people loved it whatever, but it's just
I was just kind of like, but it's just again,
we don't do this for awards. I mean, if I
never won.
Speaker 2 (45:41):
Award, that's the candy. Yeah, that's the candy.
Speaker 1 (45:44):
This my reward, My award is I get to sit
here and talk to you people like you every day
and make that my living. And so that to me
is hands down. If I just rest of them, I
can wheel me in. Andy Rooney was nine in on
the computer or whatever the future has in front of us.
I can still talk. I was still I'm gonna be
(46:05):
interviewing people.
Speaker 2 (46:06):
Right right offload our consciousness and let it go.
Speaker 1 (46:09):
Well exactly, you'll be on your one hundredth book and
be great. It's be great. It's great. We're gonna be
still talking, Jamis, our heads are.
Speaker 2 (46:15):
Gonna be in a jar. We're gonna float on stage,
James and Jtu right.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Hi kids, exactly. So I'm I was looking for to you.
The book is called you Know Why, and you Know
Why because you need to go get it Amazon, Barge
and Noball and big box stores, but also independent bookshops.
We I'm leave the mom and pops and you're the
ones like Powells Books and Oregon or that was the
last bookstore in Los Angeles. There's some's some great great
(46:42):
independent bookstores. I'm blaking out on the website that has
the books, that has them. They have a list.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
So it's bookshop, bookshop dot orgy yep, and you can.
You can name which independent bookstore you want to support,
and then all of the all of the books that
you buy, they get the support from you. And they've
got ebooks on there now too, which is really cool.
But yeah, we love our indies. We've got we've got
(47:08):
a great one. We've got a bunch of great ones here.
We've got Parnassis, a friend of mine just open one
called Bound Bookstore. That's who's my indie bookstore is on
bookshop right now, is Bound Books. Because I'm helping her
get on her feet.
Speaker 1 (47:23):
I understand, folks, I mean, trust me, we both understand
that night. I'm always for the underdog. So like just
think it's just it's absolutely always always. But you know,
wise book, Thank you j T for being on the show.
You have to come back to your next book. You
have to come back.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
I would love to do that. This has been so
much fun.
Speaker 1 (47:38):
If you can get rid of me that easily, you
have to come back for the next book. I will
third person, first person. I want to I want to
see how this turns out.
Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 1 (47:49):
If they want to follow you on social media or websites,
are Okay, you tell and I'll put in a show
notes of course, but can you tell them?
Speaker 2 (47:54):
Sure? So, my website's jt Ellison dot com. I am
Thriller Chick on all the social media and obviously you
can come by the Creative Edge on substack and subscribe
to get all kinds of good things.
Speaker 1 (48:08):
Yes, and please do that. Our show is on Facebook
between Paine and James Jr. But I am everywhere James
lot Junior or JLJ Media on all every platform, all everywhere,
all our place. Just type it in, I will pop
up and hopefully I'm I'm everywhere, So go ahead and
follow me. I'll make sure I'm following her too. Now
(48:28):
and it's like that thriller chick. I love that. Follow her,
follow me, follow us. If you have an author, you
want me to talk to you. Seventy year low DM,
I like, I like to say, I hear from everybody.
We're here, we're here, we celebrate the art of writing.
It's such a it's such a beautiful thing, and we
need things. We need the distractions very much. And we'll
(48:50):
see you next time.
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