Influencer Talent Manager Jen Powell Spills ALL: Brand Deals, Product Lines & Scaling as a Creator [Creator Currency Ep. 18]

You Can Follow Jennifer Powell Here:

Instagram:

Jennifer Powell: https://www.instagram.com/jenpowell14/
JP, INC Agency: https://www.instagram.com/hellojpinc/
Lemon Digital HQ: https://www.instagram.com/lemon.hq/

Website:

http://www.jenniferpowell.com/
http://www.lemonhq.co/

Get Access to Jennifer's Course: https://jenniferpowell.com/course
Discount Code: Sidewalker45

What does it really take to build a powerhouse creator brand? In this episode, Nina goes in-depth with Jennifer Powell, the industry veteran who’s managed some of the biggest names in the game, to talk all things influencer management, brand deals, and the business side of being a creator. Jenn opens up about her journey from the modeling world to running her own talent agency, the biggest mistakes she sees creators make, and how to actually negotiate like a pro. They dig into the future of creator brands, the dos and don'ts of licensing your products, and why owning your IP could be the smartest move you ever make. If you want real talk on working with brands, protecting your business, and building a long-lasting career as a creator, this one’s packed with gems you don’t want to miss. 

::::

Sidewalker Daily is your go-to resource for Creators and Influencers who want to land paid brand deals, make money doing what they love, and build a successful business with the right tools and strategies.

💻 Free Brand Deals Training: https://sidewalkerdaily.com/brand-deals-training/
🤩 Need Help With Your Creator Business? Speak with Our Success Manager: https://calendly.com/sidewalkerdailyteam/discovery
🌟 Best-Selling Pitching to Brands Mastercourse: https://sidewalkerdaily.com/ptbm/

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You guys, I am so excited to announce today's guests
on Influencer Confidential. When I first learned about Jen Powell,
I was like, I need to meet this woman. And
that is why I'm so pumped about our podcast, because
it gives me and you the opportunity to learn from
the best.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
So.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Jen Powell is one of the pioneering strategists and one
of the original architects of the influencer industry. She is
a powerhouse in.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
So many ways.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
In two thousand and eight, while she was at Next Management,
she was one of the first to represent fashion bloggers
as commercial talent, helping evolve the businesses of Roomy, Neely
Sincerely Jules and Kiara Farragni through high impact partnerships and
seven figure brand deals Okay. In twenty seventeen, she launched

(00:48):
her own namesake, creed or Talent Agency, focus on building
brands with and for digital first talent. By twenty twenty,
she expanded her vision launching Lemon Digital HQ, a full
service firm offering digital strategy and influencer marketing for brands.
Known for her holistic approach, Powell guides creators beyond content
into entrepreneurship, licensing and long term brand deals. In twenty

(01:11):
twenty five, she launched lemon Iq, a gen Z focus
group platform for brands and the creator Path to product
and educational resource, helping influencers turn the creative capital into
scalable licensing businesses. Powell has been featured in Bloomberg, Forbes,
Business of Fashion, Vogue, Business, CNBC, and Business Insider. She

(01:32):
is a recipient of the Business of Fashion five hundred,
recognizing the people shaping the global fashion industry. Based between
Los Angeles and Nashville, Powell continues to shape the future
of the creator economy, empowering talent to become impactful entrepreneurs
and industry leaders. Y'all get ready to meet one of
the influencer world's first talent managers who has seen beyond

(01:54):
some of the biggest brand deals and is going to
be sharing so much knowledge here today. I cannot wait
for you guys to meet Jen. Let's go ahead and
jump in well, Welcome Jen to Influencer Confidential. I am
so pumped to have you here. You are just like
a megastar and the behind the scenes world of influencers.

Speaker 3 (02:12):
Whenever we think of influencer, creator economy.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
We think of the people forward facing, but you are
like the mastermind behind behind the scenes. And I'm so
excited for so many people listening in to get to
know you and learn a little bit about your work
and what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (02:27):
So I'm really pumped. So thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Thanks so having me, Nina. This is my favorite thing
to do. I love think about. This is just the best.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
It's a cool Let's.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
Let's start off like how you tell us a little
bit about like what do you do, a little bit
about your company, and then how you kind of got
into the world of influencer management.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Cool. So I was a model agent for like twenty years, yeah,
starting in the late nineties, and I came down to
Los Angeles in two thousand and five with Next Models
and was running the women's board there. In two thousand
and eight, one of the very first fashion bloggers at
the time, Rumy Neely from Fashion Toast, was introduced to me.

(03:07):
But I know it was those were the olden days,
and it was so exciting, and I was so curious
about what she was doing because she had this blog
and people were sending her clothes. Urban Outfitters, Tixie Market,
all these guys are sending her clothes and she was
shooting them and putting it on our blog and linking
out and everything was selling out, and I was like,
wait one minute, like this could be really cool and

(03:28):
like valuable, right, So I represented her and that year
we did so many interesting cool things, like she was
on like the mood board for Angaro in Paris, Like
it was like wild interesting things that were happening in
the world. And I didn't know that this was going
to be a thing. But then I think about two

(03:48):
years later, Kiara Farani came to me from The Blonde
Salad and she's this big Italian influencer and she was
so cool, her and her boyfriend and they're like, we
want to do what Rumy's doing, and so we brought
her over to us and she became a huge success.

Speaker 3 (04:02):
Obviously obviously she's just like OG, you.

Speaker 2 (04:06):
Know, yes, And then I all of like the very
first international fashion girls came to meet Christina Beizon from
kchure Gaalaganzalez from Spain and her blog Am Lil, and
then I had Sincerely Jewels and og og.

Speaker 1 (04:24):
These are the OG creators. This must have been like
two thousand and eight, right, like around there.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Yeah, two thousand and eight to like twelve, twenty twelve,
I did the very first Revolve influencer deal. It was
a blogger deal with Roomy. At the time, it was
just the very beginning and we were trying new things
and it was so exciting, and pretty soon these girls
were making more money than the models were, and so
next as a whole, they were like, wow, okay, so

(04:49):
maybe we're on something here. And so I started the
Special Bookings Division. We had to figure out a name
for it, and it was Special Bookings Division in LA
New York and then London, Paris. So I was working
with so many of the international gals too, was trying
to figure out how this works into every market. And
then Bloomberg called and they wanted me on. And because

(05:10):
all of the girls were sitting front row with Fashion
Week and it was becoming disruptive and interesting, and like
the magazines were like, what is this? Why are these
girls sitting next to me in front row? And so
it was like it was a moment in time. So
I did CNBC and MSNBC and all of the everything
vote business and business of fashion and stuff. So it

(05:31):
was very validating for me. But also at the same
time for me, it was thrilling, like it was so disruptive.
I was like, wait, this is so fun. So I
mean so then we were like, oh, dang, they're making money.
So anyway, I started my own business in twenty seventeen,
the purpose being that I wanted to license product, I
wanted to start brands and businesses with them. What I

(05:52):
was doing didn't necessarily live within a modeling agency anymore,
even though I had like the best support and my
best friend is the president of Next Models in LA
and I love him so much, but I knew I
needed to do it outside of this and build it
in a way that I thought, like, really serviced this
sort of talent. So I started my agency, Jennifer Pell Inc.
In twenty seventeen and built my team, and then in

(06:13):
twenty twenty, I started a marketing company for influencer marketing
campaigns and social strategy with a partner, and so now
I am just running both.

Speaker 1 (06:25):
Now you just take over the world. Okay, yeah, no,
but yeah, all the things. But it's funny what you
mentioned too about like the initial piece was kind of
going through this agency, like the modeling agency, and I
think we see this in a lot of spaces like
where do influencers fit? You know, like I see it
from the PR side, you know, we were running traditional
PR campaigns for our hotels and our churs and boards,

(06:46):
but then.

Speaker 3 (06:47):
Like do we just earn media?

Speaker 1 (06:49):
Are we only working with Like the influencer was this round?
We couldn't figure out where to put them, you know,
and it makes sense with your background and agency side,
but then also being like, okay, this isn't traditional.

Speaker 3 (06:59):
This is like like a different space.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
So it almost needed its own space to be in, like,
well the career are now, you.

Speaker 3 (07:05):
Know, agreed.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
I think the good thing about being a traditional agent
in the space though, is that I also knew how
much money the brands had, so then we were able
to try to figure out what the posting was worth,
and so there was like place to jump off from.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
You know.

Speaker 2 (07:20):
It wasn't like just pulling numbers out of the sky.
Like there were some like thoughtful not necessarily analytics behind it.
At the beginning especially, it was just like seeing what works,
but knowing what they had to spend and knowing what
the value was on like a model for their you know,
image and lightness and to shoot so we came for
at least there was a good perspective, you know, which is.

Speaker 1 (07:40):
Interesting that you bring this up and this is going
off cop and I'll try to keep us like centered
into them because I feel like we could go all over.
But what's interesting is when I think like traditional models, right,
especially at things around likeness and usage, you know, like
maybe models and you tell me, because I have no
experience on the side, but like you would assume, Okay,
they have their day rates and they're getting paid for

(08:02):
these campaigns and their faces are on billboards and or wherever,
and they're just everywhere, but now with the influencer, and
they're like this whole idea of likeness and charging for
that versus traditional model just like a canvas that is there.
I mean, were you guys at the early ages realizing
that you could charge more for this and putting kind

(08:23):
of bundling that in because from a traditional model perspective,
it kind of felt like the people that have these
built in communities were maybe potentially have a higher CPM,
more more to charge for than just a traditional model
or is that like what are our thoughts there?

Speaker 2 (08:40):
No completely and what was happening at the beginning, and
it was making me insane. Is that the brands were
putting in posting into a model's job, right. They were
meant to shoot the campaign or shoot whatever it was,
and then post a couple of times. And I'm like, wait,
that's you guys need to be charging incremental fees. Is
what I was telling a lot of my other agents,

(09:03):
my peers, and hard at the beginning for them to understand.
But I'm like, Okay, my girls are making more money
from one post than yours are for shooting the campaign.
But I really think that everybody needs to listen to me.
And it's hard being the first one doing something, and
it's hard teaching a very old traditional business to make

(09:24):
very big changes to how it runs. So they caught
on over time, like the more traditional markets were more difficult, definitely,
Like the Europeans came kind of after the American talent
started doing these things, and you have to have a
different strategy per market to be very thoughtful. There was

(09:45):
a lot of education around it and why there was
also agents that made models at the beginning take down
their social media and I'm like, oh my god, please don't.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Wild And now I almost feel like you get booked
if you have the fall up doing in different ways.
You know, we were just talking about this at lunch,
like if you have a certain built in community, it's
like jumping.

Speaker 2 (10:07):
The ladder in a way, right, yeah, because it's it's
built in marketing for.

Speaker 3 (10:11):
In addition to crap.

Speaker 1 (10:13):
So was that the that's probably the aha, Like once
you started to see I'm assuming what that incremental jump was,
that's probably when you were like, wait a second, hold on,
and because what you mentioned and we're going to talk
about this in depth a little bit later, is that
you kind of realize, Okay, these creators, these gals, these
og girls are going from building now just influencers to

(10:35):
their own businesses. You briefly mentioned licensing, and you briefly
mentioned so that's kind of that was your aha moment, Like,
wait a second, these we got we gotta they got
to become their own businesses.

Speaker 3 (10:44):
Correct, Yes, well it was.

Speaker 2 (10:46):
It was the realization when Rumy was linking out to
certain products and it was selling out, and then so
I was thinking, of course, this is going to be
valuable for X brands, like duh, this is what they're
trying to do, and they're directly like they could track
how this girl sells. So this is important. And then

(11:07):
in the similar way was when we started doing capsule collections,
which is when I really was able to understand the
value and the way that we could sell. And then
the addition of reward style and the affiliates, that really
was like, Oh, now I can really understand and drill
down into the data. I have data points, Like wow,

(11:28):
we have it all, we have every tool here. It
was like the most exciting. I still get chills.

Speaker 1 (11:33):
Yeah, especially how you just mentioned that the data point
from the the affiliate side too. So You've worked with
so many really really major celebrity style creators influencers, and
I think a lot of creators listening in, you know,
they're probably curious, like what makes these.

Speaker 3 (11:50):
Gals you know so magnetic or.

Speaker 1 (11:54):
Some common traits that your most successful girls or guys
or whoever you are uppers at as a talent manager,
What is it behind the curtain? Share with us some
of that perspective.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
It's a couple of things. It's definitely consistency. It's consistency
of doing the post and the thing every day and
no days off, especially in the beginning, which is hard.
It's just hard. But there's tools now to manage these things,
to be able to get content up and to be
able to like content bank, to shoot a bunch of things,

(12:28):
and then to be able to roll it out so
you can have a little bit of a break, a
brain vacation. There are incredible multitaskers. Generally they are balancing
a lot of things, and at the beginning they aren't
like full time content creators. This is like a side
hustle until it's a main hustle. So they have a

(12:49):
day job and they have perhaps a family or not,
or they're young and they're going to college. They all
have something else going on. But they manage it sometimes well,
sometimes not well. At the beginning especially, they need to
adhere to timelines and to creative briefs. They're easy like
at the beginning, I think is so important to create

(13:10):
ease with the client that makes them want to come back.
There's a lot of options now, right, this is like
an actual career that people try to do, So there's
a lot of options. So they have to show up
on time and they have to do the thing on time.
They have to shoot on time, and they have to
hit the points that they're meant to, so I think
that they all know those things. There's some bad behavior

(13:32):
that creeps in, I think as the career grows. But
it's also because I think there's management that needs to
happen at that point. That it's about building internal infrastructures
of businesses, but at the beginning, it's really important for consistency, multitasking.
Things like that that are just like the most basic
but are so important, and they're so important to me

(13:53):
when I'm considering talent. And the weirdest thing Nina is
like I would say fifty percent of our girls are aries.
And I'm not like a total nerd about this stuff,
but I'm like, what is it?

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Can somebody that.

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Knows anything about horoscopes talk to me about this?

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Because please, that's wild because I'm a horoscope really and
I would have thought you would have mentioned, like, you know,
that's so interesting.

Speaker 3 (14:15):
I don't know a lot about aries. I'm going to
look it up.

Speaker 2 (14:18):
I am telling you. I'm like, let me guess you're
an aries, like.

Speaker 1 (14:21):
It is, like I wonder and that's like march, Well,
they're fiery signs, so maybe you need more.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Specific people that beginning of a lot of April babies.
I don't know, it's like every day we're wishing somebody
a happy birthday as well.

Speaker 1 (14:32):
You like, I don't know, who knows what about Like
you're seeing these big brand deals. You're managing these brand deals,
and you know when you got something good on the hook, right,
you're like, I know, like we're gonna knock it out,
and you know the worth of your girls or the
guys that you represent, So like, what are something that
excite your the brand clients. I know you're managing brand
partnerships as while you mentioned that part of your business,

(14:53):
but from the traditional manager perspective, like what makes a
brand excited to work with a creator?

Speaker 2 (14:58):
I think it's the wi willingness of the partner to
be to create a relationship. And I think that everybody
when pitching or when considering going into something with a brand,
they need to consider it a beginning of a relationship.
And even for me, That's how I've built my entire
business as relationships. It's not like I've done press like

(15:20):
I am fully behind the scenes, it is one hundred
percent about relationships. For I think the brands too, because
the brands are like they get a gazillion emails every day,
and when you're really a lover of the brand, then
they are they will believe it. And also when you
care about the content that you're putting out or that

(15:40):
you're going to deliver, they love when talent is like
what's your goal? Like, what is your goal? How can
I get you there? And how can I be a
good partner? So I think that from the brand side,
that's what they're looking for. They're like, is this partner
going to be somebody that wants to help us get
us where we're trying to be. I mean it's pretty basic, right.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
But but what you're saying is that word partner. You know,
that's almost like client services, Like once influencers see them, yeah,
see themselves as like service.

Speaker 3 (16:11):
Providers, like what are your goals? Like how can I
help you?

Speaker 1 (16:14):
You know, having that professional mentality, like especially when these
creators want to get these brands on retainer or longer
term partnerships, they have to be thinking like that, not
that one night's stand approach, but kind of that how
can I serve you?

Speaker 3 (16:26):
How can I bring value?

Speaker 2 (16:27):
You know, you are providing a service that they are
contracting you to do, and they're doing that instead of
having like a model shoot something that they're controlling. So
it truly is like what do you want and how
can I create ease in getting there? And like success
And also I think going into everything knowing that at

(16:48):
the end of the day, most of these brands are
trying to sell things right and as unsexy as that is,
like because it is, it's like this, it's super un sexy,
but you need to go in understanding that they are
trying to sell a product to service something and you're
telling that story.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
So, yeah, you mentioned the word control.

Speaker 1 (17:07):
Do you find that the bigger the brand is the
harder it is for them to relinquish control because again,
like you said, we could hire a model, we can
do it our way, we can say exactly how we want,
we could set it up.

Speaker 3 (17:18):
To be perfect, right.

Speaker 1 (17:20):
Or do you do you find that is there some
sort of like inverse relationship or positive correlation the bigger
the brand, the more you know, stricter guidelines or do
you find that that's also maybe lessened up and some
of your big brand clients are like, hey, you go
for it, Like you're seeing more trust in the market.

Speaker 3 (17:37):
Are brands being more trusting of talent, you know.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
With the opposite, it's like I think that the bigger
the brand is, the more they're like, go do you
and this is the goal and this is the like
content brief and you're like okay, like I can do
something cool with this. But the brands that might have
less funding more to lose there they are act with

(18:00):
less talent. I think that they're more prescriptive and less
willing to be flexible. Also, there's agencies that are coming
between the talent and the brand, and a lot of
times that agencies don't want to lose the brands either,
so they have very specific goals and KPIs to hit

(18:21):
to keep that brand. So the agencies a lot of
times kind of layer in their own priorities onto these campaigns,
which then do impact the amount of freedom and flexibility
and all of these things because they have their own
goals too, So you kind of have to think about
it that way too. Then there's two teams that you're
trying to make happy. It's like a lot of people

(18:45):
to please here.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
Yeah, but what you're saying is such goal because I
you know, I have experience on the agency side, and
I always think like, well, the agency's charging this fat
retainer because they're trying to keep their clients, you know, happy,
And then the creator's adding and are the are the
agency maybe withholding budget? Oh well we don't have that,
and you're like yeah, because you're getting that, you know,
like let's let's call a spade a spain, right, So

(19:07):
there are a lot of people wanting And that's why
I said in the beginning of this combo, it was
at least in the beginning, it was hard to place
influencers like where do do do we deal with their
marketing agencies?

Speaker 3 (19:16):
Do we deal with their big pr agencies? Like?

Speaker 1 (19:18):
And you know, I think there's a lot more clarity now.
But to your point, the more chefs in the kitchen,
the more people you gotta.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Please one hundred percent. And so just know that you're
like one little guy that's trying to make a world
happy and success happened. So it's a big responsibility.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, So I feel like you have some not tea
to spill, but like you are in it from the
olden days to now, Like I feel like you've seen
crazy brand deals, like you have probably been like wait,
she got paid?

Speaker 3 (19:47):
What you know?

Speaker 1 (19:48):
And I think there's a little bit of secrecy around
money in this space because people aren't It's not like
there's a glass door. You know, Hey, we got a
sixty thousand dollars partnership from Exonmobile, Like we don't see
like the normal person doesn't that. But do you have
any like memorable brand deals or any you know, things
that kind of landed. You don't have to share the brand,
but just in terms of things that you've kind of

(20:08):
seen land on your desk, that kind of will let
others listening in know like, wait, there's a significant funny.

Speaker 3 (20:14):
To be made.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
I think one of my favorite and most validating moments
at the very beginning of my career was when we
got the Laurel Paris Ambassador deal for Christina Beason and
she was like with Julian Moore and Doubts and Cross
and like all of these girls. So it was so excellent.
She was at cann she looks stunning, like she was

(20:37):
going to all the things, and she was part of
that squad in a very traditional a very traditional squad, right,
And so for me it was validating that we were
being included and there was a seat at the table
for digitally native talents. And it's almost like those moments
that it's not necessarily yes, there's a lot of money

(20:58):
associated with these big deals and things like that, but
it's it was also just the moment of being accepted
and validated at the table. It's when Kiara got the
cover of Lucky magazine or Spanish Vogue. I mean, oh
my gosh, those were moments. And then when I did
my first capsule collection. I remember with Steve Madden and

(21:18):
Kiara with blue blond salad. It was being soul. I
didn't even know you're behind that in Europe. It was like,
oh my gosh, like this is so wild and what
an amazing opportunity to I mean, I sat down with Steve.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
It was wild, really wild, and I remember that capsule
collection was like ionic.

Speaker 2 (21:35):
Yes it was a New York like it was.

Speaker 3 (21:39):
It was iconic.

Speaker 1 (21:40):
I probably crushed it, who knows, but that is an
iconic moment, and I think to your point, it is
so validating. I'm sure you saw Time just release their
Top one hundred creators lists. You know, we're seeing Top
Forbes Creators list like it is for someone like you
that's been in this industry and helped build it from

(22:00):
the ground up, you know, and our team as well,
we've been around for the last ten years.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
Like it is so very.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Validating seeing influencers, creators, you know, transition to CEOs, but
also having this recognition like cans right now, Like when
in my head my NBA marketing brain, like this was
this old school marketing prestige. Like now there's creator events,
Like creators were taking over Ken Like I know we

(22:26):
are friend Resa is our LTK hosting them. I'm like,
the creators are. It's like amazing.

Speaker 2 (22:32):
I mean, in my wildest dreams, I mean it made
complete sense. Don't get me wrong, Like this made complete
sense to me from the very beginning. But in my
wildest dreams did I think that we were going to
be really validated like this, And so like it's just
thrilling for me to see other people have success too,
and all these different creators I think finding a niche

(22:52):
that is surprising, and I just I love it. It's
so exciting to see the entrepreneur and the businesses being built.

Speaker 1 (23:01):
And yeah, I agree, I'm like it's super thrilling. Well,
one thing I want to talk about before we jump
into product licensing because and scaling, because I think I
cannot wait to talk to you about that. But I
want to talk about negotiation, and I think that that's
something that you're really obviously in the thick of being,

(23:22):
you know, a manager. You know, I want to talk
about red flags. I want to talk about usage rights, exclusivity, things.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
That we may hear.

Speaker 1 (23:29):
We're not sure, especially for creators that don't have management,
what should they know about negotiating with brands or is
there any sort of negotiation one oh one, especially for
those creators listening.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
In, well, it's loaded. I love to negotiate. It's the
reason why I am what I am. I think the
most important thing that I have taught my younger agents
is that everybody has to feel like they've won, like
to have a really good negotiation and to walk away
from something or somebody that wants to work with you. Again,

(24:00):
is that everybody needs to feel like they won. And
so it's not always about going at the tip top
of your rates. It's about getting somewhere that you know
is going to perform and that they're going to want
to come back. It is so important for the brand
or the agency to also feel like they won. Then
of course, usages there's been a lot of weird language

(24:23):
in the usage section of contracts where it says use
on any digital media created now or ever, Like, those
things are obviously things that need to be inpetuity.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
Right, perpetuity N hear that word, it's silliness.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Silliness. And there's also indemnifications that you have to look at,
which there should always be a mutual indemnification in something
in case something happens with brand, you each need to
be indemnified. A lot of times there's insurances that they're
wanting you to carry and.

Speaker 3 (24:55):
You don't even know that. You need to know, right,
Like I saw that recently in the contract.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
They're like up to a million dollars something, and the
creator was like, what do I do? I was like,
looks like we need to take out an insurance just
for this event.

Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, I think that that's something that really has to
be considered, but also is a part of the growth
of a creator's business. Right, you need to get incorporated.
You just need to talk to you like you're either
whoever's accounting for you or your CPA. At what point
do I need to get incorporated? Then get the business
insurance and things like that. So if something happens. You know,

(25:28):
you're not personally sued in your house doesn't get taken away,
but it's suing the they're suing the business. So in
a lot of these contracts you have to consider that
because they need to be written out. The contracts need
to be drafted to the business versus you as a
person if you are incorporated. So there's things that have
to happen, and you really do need to look into
investment in your own business. You need to find your team,

(25:52):
you need to find your accountant and your CPA and
eventually your wealth manager or your insurance provider. It is
a proper business and it needs to be invested in
that way and it needs to be considered that as well.
If this is what you want to do, this is
what you need to do to make sure you have
the foundation, a strong foundation of your business. Have an attorney.

(26:14):
I hate paying attorneys and I pay them literally all
the time. It makes me nuts. But there's some that
you can find that you're like, I'm going to cap
you at this certain budget and then you have to
have conversation if they go over. But you do need
to have some sort of like a business contract person
on your side. There's a lot of brands that'll hit

(26:35):
you up on DM I'm sure you guys all know
that that's the easiest way to get to you. And
also I think our marketing team does that too. When
we can't figure out who manages somebody. People are hitting
you up directly, and a lot of times they're coming
to you because they know that they could probably get
you cheaper than an agency would, which is fine in
the beginning, to be honest with you, get your business

(26:57):
flowing before you need to really consider manager or an agent.
But really those are the things that you have to
be so careful about. It's those things that I just mentioned.
There's a lot of overreach in a lot of these contracts,
and it would not not my design, would you?

Speaker 1 (27:14):
And would you say that sometimes, like in our experience,
it's been that these are like a lot of times
or you'd see standard contracts and the brand may just
send it because they're sending it to everyone, you know,
and it's kind of like up to the creator to advocate,
to speak up to say, hey, you know section two A,
like what does that mean? Or you know what, like no,
I don't want this. And even if they don't accept it.

(27:35):
Are you of the team you know, read through it
or ask questions or you know, advocate because I think
when it comes especially around usage, I find this to
be like the pebble in the shoe where people just
can't they feel like, wait a second, you want me
to make this video, you want me to post on
my page, but you also want to do.

Speaker 3 (27:55):
So much more with it.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
I mean a lot of times we see brands kind
of taking advantage, you know, or and especially of younger
creators that don't have someone like you in their corner
to be like, that's not happening. So these sure, yeah,
these young bucks have to like speak up for themselves.

Speaker 2 (28:09):
You know, everybody expects at least one round of red lines. Okay,
everybody does, and if you don't, they're like there's an
there's like she's green or he's great, like they're green.
So I think that everybody expects a first round of
red lines. And the terms that are offered to you
on the email when you accept the job should be

(28:31):
the same terms that are reflected on the contract. Always
fine to have conversation. That being said, time is like
the killer of every contract too. If you go if
you're going around in circles for ten red lines, Like
then everybody's like no, Like I'm good, We're agreed.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
It's just annoying.

Speaker 2 (28:49):
It's annoying at that point, like are we gonna get there?
Are we not? Let's get to the point. And also
by that time, you're in like three weeks and it's like,
are we really doing this campaign? So just be aware
that time is of the essence, but that it's very
fair to ask for at least one or two rounds
of red lines. And what I do a lot of

(29:09):
is after I do the first round of red lines
and the brand comes back and if there's more issues,
I ask them to get on a phone call because
at that point you're able to get through the points
and figure out are we doing this or are we not?
Like can we just quickly figure this out? Like, no
more emails.

Speaker 1 (29:23):
I love that speed is actually your friend, right because
I love what you said how time just.

Speaker 3 (29:28):
Is going to kill the deal.

Speaker 1 (29:28):
If you're just going back and forth, it's not fun
for anyone, So nip it in the butt. Okay, So
now I just want to dive into product licensing and expansion.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
I've been waiting.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
I feel like this is This is something that is
so cool, especially for creators. I always kind of like
that middle ground. You know, they've gotten brand partnerships, they
have a study flow, they're already in the zone, and
then they're thinking of being their own brand or developing
their own brand.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Right, everyone kind of has that little itch at some
point in their creator journey.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
So let's start at the beginning and just in general,
like when we talk about product licensing, like what does
that mean and how is it different from like a
typical brand collapse.

Speaker 2 (30:09):
So licensing is a word that can be used for
brands that are licensing your image for their social media.
Like licensing is using somebody else's ip on your brand.
So it is kind of loaded because every even brand collaborations,
like when we did Billabong and Sincerely Jewels, that is

(30:31):
a license.

Speaker 3 (30:32):
Let's talk about it.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
So that's an influencer who is now working with a
brand Billibong. It's like, right now, Alex Zirl for Hawaiian Tropic,
I just saw the ads, right Sincerely Jewels for Billibong.

Speaker 3 (30:43):
She is creating capsule collections.

Speaker 1 (30:45):
So when you're talking about these sort of licensing or
product licensing, you're talking about these sort of marriages between
influencer and brand.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
Correct talking about that plus and we can get into
that like the standalone licenses, but for we can go
but one after the other.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
Yes, so like one being like Sincerely Jewels for Billabong.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
That's what we would consider like a you know these
capsule collections where the creators maybe designing a set of
things X, Y Z and they're putting their name on it,
versus said creator creating her own line, right, which is right,
second example.

Speaker 2 (31:19):
Right, So this particular collaboration with Billabong and Sincerely Jewels,
it was such a great like growth and learning for
me because we started off doing like social posts with
Julie and Billabong many many years ago. She would post
everything would sell out that she was wearing cool. Then
they would give her the whole like the whole season

(31:41):
of of you know of looks, and she would go
with her husband to Tahiti and shoot the whole collection
and she would turn in the assets, which would be
then a full campaign. Then we're like, this is so
successful together, why don't we do product together? So we
did fifty pieces with Billabong. It was swim, some like

(32:04):
denim and ready to wear there was hats, there was toats,
there was a lot, and we sold in North and
South America, Europe, in Apex. With this particular first collaboration,
we did have retail partners. We had Nordstrum with the
first one and then Bloomingdale's was the second one. But
for the first one it was sold at retail and

(32:26):
online on Billabong's e commerce, and then it was also
sold at Nordstrum. So that is an example. The product
collaboration is an example of a license. They used Julie's
IP to put on product and that was that was
a license. So that is one form of a license. Yes,
love that and the case the easiest one to start

(32:47):
with as a creator.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
Because you're also getting data right like, oh my gosh,
I could do it for Billyabong, I could start my
own right, So that's so these do you find that
to technically be like an entry point when these creators
are doing or do you see that creators are nowadays
just going straight to developing their own things like they
may not eat they could bypass or what's that looking like?

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, the thing that I love about this long, I
mean this is a this is a not a sprint
like we are here for the law, Like we're building businesses, right,
So what we are we're able to get from that
partnership was we learned who her who her customer was,
not just who her follower was. We learned the price point,

(33:26):
We learned where they want to buy. Are they buying
mostly on eCOM? Are they buying in retail? How are
we doing it Nordstrom? It was total like data, just
party we had. It was like all data. It was
so cool and we were able to take that and
then create a very compelling package for Sincerely Jewels in

(33:47):
being able to have standalone licensing partners for her brand.
So that's kind of what comes next. So creators come
to me a lot and they're like, I want to
start a business. I'm like, cool, what do you do?
You know what you sell? Well, like, what do you sell?
What's the price point, who's your customer? All of those things.

(34:08):
Most recently somebody said I don't know, and I'm like, well,
we should probably figure that out before you want to
go directly to a manufacturer and sink a cord of
a million dollars in doing research and development. Right, So
I think that the affiliate part of a creator's business
is absolutely one of the most important things that they
can do before they go out to market with their

(34:29):
own product, because that gives you a lot of data.
Like shot Maya at this point is giving us the
most intricate visibility. LTK gives us enough right now to
be able to make a lot of very good assumptions
on how people sell and where they sell. So gathering
all of this data is also compelling because then when

(34:50):
you have a like say we have a brand partnership
with seven for all Mankind, for instance, and we know
that the we are able to link out to affiliates
and they were like, dang her denim sells like crazy,
Like maybe we need to look into this further, And
then we kind of lean into Denham and that what

(35:11):
I love is not spending half a million dollars to
start your own brand, Like I'm not a fan of
spending that much money to do something that's unproven. I
think that there is a better way, which is licensing.
If you are selling at that level, if you're selling
a lot, there's licensing out agents out there like myself
that are putting brand books together and talking directly to

(35:34):
manufacturers to different brand management teams that are looking to
license new marks, which means it's kind of like Martha
Stewart or Paris Hilton. Let's use both of those as examples.
Martha Stewart has the most massive licensing business. She has
her own pots and pans, she has her own home stuff.

(35:55):
Martha Stewart is not going out and doing R and
D on her own pots and pans. She's going to
a team that does that that also gets distribution for
the product. So there's like this whole licensing world that
I think that there's not really education around, but it
is the way to build brands and businesses. Creators, I

(36:15):
think do the best job at telling stories, at creating
content and all of these things, and the information and
data we get teaches us who their customer is. We
just need to leave it to the professionals to do
things like apparel design and manufacturing and distribution and all
of those things. So there's this other way that we've

(36:38):
been able to find to be able to create product
that was a lot of information.

Speaker 3 (36:43):
No, I'm blown away. I'm so excited.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
And that's exactly now what you're kind of getting into
right Like, now you're helping kind of usher creators that
you know have no idea about this, because it's true
when you're in the brand deal route, and this is
what we teach with brand partnerships.

Speaker 3 (36:58):
So it's very my audience.

Speaker 1 (36:59):
Know, when you're in the brand deal route, you know,
it's very different than developing your own brand. It's like
developing your own brand, you know, going after product, launching
your own well, like you call it the creator's path
to product. Right once you start developing your own I
mean you're definitely at a different at a different level.
Is this correlated with follower count? Is there a pathway

(37:22):
for smaller creators to start? So let's talk about that,
because I think we always think linearly, oh well I
have to be this to do that. But can smaller
creators jump on in and start as well?

Speaker 2 (37:35):
Absolutely? I think with what Electric Picks has done, and
I don't know how familiar you are with that jewelry brand,
but they do collections all the time with smaller creators.
And when creators start doing capsule collections at the very beginning,
I think that it's validating, it's validating for you and

(37:56):
your brand in product like it is the way to
go at the beginning to test markets and to be
able to tell the story of the way that your
product sells.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
I think follower count, for some reason, just get some
people's heads. It's like this pathway. If you hit this number,
it opens a level for you. But it seems like
you're saying that there is a path that isn't necessarily
based on follower count. No.

Speaker 2 (38:22):
I think it's how you sell though. To be honest,
I really think that that's an important thing. And there's
so many creators that sell. Like your audience buys from you,
you need to teach your audience to buy from you.
It's like some creators are there because it's vivy and
it's beautiful and blah blah blah. But there are some

(38:43):
creators that sell like unbelievable. I represent this woman named
Aaron Busby. She has Buzzby Style and the service she
provides for women that are wanting to shop at different
sizes different there are different body types. It's a more
of a chore woman that wants that has a little
bit of money, Like she knows exactly who her consumer is.

(39:05):
She sells like crazy, and I don't she's not at
a million. I don't even know that she's at five
hundred thousand followers. But she has a website, which I
think is really really important for a creator that wants
to build a business like this and have product eventually.
She has newsletters. It helps you create the IP of
your brand, and I think it's a very important foundation

(39:29):
for somebody that wants to get into product or like
brand builds, because it tells more, It gives your custom
more customer, more places to purchase from you. I think
it's an owned space on the internet because at this point,
if something happens to Instagram and these talent lose their
Instagram for whatever reason, something gets hacked and it's gone,

(39:50):
it's like, do you have a business anymore? I don't know. Yeah,
no truly.

Speaker 3 (39:54):
I mean someone we know is going through like this
right now.

Speaker 1 (39:57):
Her account the hacked and this and that, and it's
like this seems this like product licensing. It seems like
another way to fool proof you know, your your business.
You mentioned some signs of people that are ready. You
mentioned having a website, having some affiliate data where you're
able to show Okay, wait a second, like there is

(40:17):
some there.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
Is proof in the pudding here.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
You mentioned without saying it so bluntly, but like kind
of good at selling and training your audience. You know,
some people hate to sell. They get icked, it feels weird.
And I tell creators this all the time, especially when
they're fishing brand deals. I'm like, you're in sales. I
know it hurts getting on a call. It feels funky,
But guess what that's like part of like you put
Like you said, some people just want to be about

(40:40):
the vibe. It seems like those are some signs that
people may be ready to then dive into licensing, especially
if you're looking to, you know, build out your own
brands and go speak to a manufacturer.

Speaker 3 (40:51):
That's how they know they're ready to take that jump.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
Yes, and if you start a business and a brand,
I believe that one hundred percent of you guys are
going to want to sell things. That's what we're trying
to do, right, And so if that's the goal, then
we have to get comfortable with supporting that goal. And
I think that there's very classy, elegant, storytelling ways to
sell for those that aren't like buy this and it

(41:15):
feels like they're a hawking US car, there's a classier
way to do it. But it's absolutely necessary.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
And it seems like that it's the next step that
we're not thinking about as much, but how we need
to start thinking about.

Speaker 3 (41:28):
You know more.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
This seems like a more intentional and strategic stepping point
because a lot of creators maybe want to start but
they don't know. So when it comes to you know,
product licensing, and this may be a little bit of
an elementary question, but I want to ask because I
know a lot of the people my you know, creators
that I start with, they'll start with stuff like, oh,

(41:50):
let's do merch right, Like, oh, we're going to start
with like a merch line.

Speaker 3 (41:53):
That's an example of product licensing.

Speaker 2 (41:55):
So with merch is it's something that has your mark
on it and you're purchasing the inventory or it's being
made to order. It's a safe way to start and
to start gathering some data. I think once you have
a business that is ready to move into new products

(42:16):
things like that, then you have to bring in other
partners that are able to that have their proficiencies, Like
you don't want your sweatshirt guide to be creating I
don't know, like if they can't do hats and they
can't do hats or if they can't do say they're
not doing hydration and water bottles, then you want your
water bottle to guy to do the water bottles, and
you want your sweatshirt guide to do your sweatshirts or

(42:37):
whatever it is. You have to find the right teams
that are proficient. And then there's a difference between selling
merch on a website or through your social media, then
selling product and getting it into Target or Nordstrom, or
being able to really have a wholesale strategy to be
able to build the brand as a product business. Right,

(42:59):
So it's a little bit different. I think it's an
excellent first start to see if there's an appetite as
well and if people are buying into the brand, and
to get to know your customer a little bit more.
There's a community aspect of merch that I love. It's
like you're my people, you know, we all.

Speaker 1 (43:16):
Are like, I'm wearing your hoodies because I listen to
your podcast, you know.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
Yeah, and I think might post it, which, by the way,
we need to talk about yours, Nina.

Speaker 3 (43:25):
I know, I cannot wait to die.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
I haven't seen strategy, yes.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
Yes, well no, I And it's funny because my community
knows or like I've always talked about, I think like
there's such a market for a really cute creator merch,
you know, our creator centric things.

Speaker 3 (43:40):
I'm a chotchkey buyer. I go to Barnes and Nobles.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
Those are the type of gifts I'm going to buy
someone at Nordstrom, like a little pen set like Kate
Spade right when she got into all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 (43:50):
So you can really see those are all licenses. Those
are all licensed, yes, And that's exactly like making They
weren't like making pens.

Speaker 1 (43:58):
Yeah, they were finding the team. Tell us about the
creator path to product? Then, is this is this kind
of what you're now? Is this the next step for you?
Is this what you're teaching? Like, we want to know
I'm going to take this program, like I want to
learn ins and outs, But tell us, like, because that's
that's something that you're you're going.

Speaker 2 (44:15):
To be launching soon, correct, I'm launching it and we
are going to have a promo code for you guys.
It's side Off for forty five and we are launching it.
It's an educational course to teach the creator how to
get to product through licensing, Basically, it's to teach you
everything they already know, and literally what you're teaching them

(44:35):
on your course is aggregating all of that information slightly
differently for a brand book to then get either one
a licensing agent that's able to go out and close
deals for an apparel license, a hydration license, a luggage license,
like to build the business. So basically it's to teach

(44:57):
creators what they know, but it's what they can. You're
reading the data that they already have and to teach
them that, like, this isn't an overnight thing. This isn't
an overnight strategy. This is something that happens on your
career path as you grow that you're then able to
aggregate and then put into like a brand book that
you're able to come to me and I'm able to

(45:18):
say yes, I see it, and you're ready and like,
let's take it out to market. So for me, it's twofold. One,
it's an educational course to be able to support the
creators and learning about licensing and why I think that
this is the right way for them to build businesses.
And two it's almost like a lead gen for me

(45:39):
because it's getting the creator with all of the information
that I need for them to come to me and say, here,
this is my brand book, like can we kill it?
Like are we doing this?

Speaker 3 (45:49):
Do I have a shot?

Speaker 2 (45:50):
We have it?

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Like?

Speaker 2 (45:51):
And so I'm going to be accessible as part of
it and everything. And for me, I love talking about
this so much that I want to be able to
be accessible to the creator, to be able to have
these sorts of conversations. And don't get me wrong, like
my day job is running my talent agency, and like
we are growing and building. My agents are like the

(46:11):
coolest and amazing. But what I'm seeing come to us
our talent that want to be able to license as well.

Speaker 1 (46:18):
So cool interesting thing, even things like licensing agent like
didn't even know, Like you know, obviously I'm in the end,
but like I know, people will.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
Be like I didn't even know that was a job
or thing or like that.

Speaker 1 (46:29):
You can just kind of you know, white label or
put your mark and find people that are already building
and growing these things, like they already have their specialties.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
They all live out there in the world. There's a
lot of licensing agents that represent manufacturers, that represent retailers
that are creating these creator programs for certain retailers. Walmart's
doing this so well right now. I think they're having
a real moment with the creator. They have crushed and
they understand they understand the creator too. So there's all

(47:00):
of these people out there that are also looking for
the information that the creators have at there, and it's nowhere.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
It is nowhere. What's so funny, you guys listening? When
I spoke When I first spoke to Jen about this,
I was like, Oh, like, you're in the course business,
like me too. She's like, actually, I'm just like making
this because I'm tired of answering the same question.

Speaker 3 (47:16):
A thousand times.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
I was like, oh, okay, but I love that because
there's literally no information and even though we have tools
like chat, chept and II and all that. I say
it about my program too. You don't know what you
don't know, you know what I mean? Like, So having
someone like Jen who's put together these major capsule collections,
who has been involved in some really crazy product licensing

(47:41):
deals and is in it.

Speaker 3 (47:43):
She's like, eat, breathes and lives. I mean, what better
way to learn?

Speaker 1 (47:46):
I think it's actually what you're doing with your program
is like a gift. It's a true gift to people
to learn.

Speaker 3 (47:53):
Because we know, how do you how do you know
this stuff? Like, how do you know? How do you know?

Speaker 1 (47:57):
It's too crazy and you've seen it at such a
high level. So I think I'm really excited for it.

Speaker 3 (48:03):
And we'll leave the limp below you guys, so that
you guys can check out her program. But like I said,
when I originally asked her.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
About it and like, let's talk courses, She's like, no,
it's just that I'm tired of always.

Speaker 3 (48:13):
Being asked this.

Speaker 1 (48:15):
So those are the best type of course creators because
they're not even like she already kills it in her
talent management agency, her you know, licensing current deals this
almost That's why I feel like it's a gift because
you really don't have to even be doing this to
share your knowledge and your expertise.

Speaker 3 (48:31):
So I think that's awesome. So I mean, I'm all things, Well, I.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Know job and I just went to the licensing trade
show in Vegas and what I recently I reached out
to the CEO and I'm like, there is something missing
here and that is creator brands that aren't being represented
at the licensing trade show. And she said, you are
so right, and I think that there's an opportunity here
for education even with the traditional licensing teams too. So

(48:55):
we are at a turning point with licensing. I think
that is going to be on boat sides and everybody
needs to learn about it. And the creator brands are
the future legacy brands. That's what I believe. I believe,
and it's not just mister Beast, and it's not just
like these huge ones. I think that these creator brands,
the Summer Fridays, all of these guys, these are the

(49:16):
future legacy brands, and we want to be building those
or at least using all the data that we have
to build those, because why not? Why not?

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Truly, that's why people are starting online anyways. And I
think this is a really exciting part of the creator economy.
Like it's a part that we you know, we've learned
a lot about affiliate marketing, We've learned a lot about
brand deals, but this whole like start your own brand,
license a product, you know, get into this world.

Speaker 3 (49:42):
It's something that has not been really spoken of so much.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
When you think where creators are going and when creators
are ready to kind of get into this world, do
you feel like there's any not pitfalls, but like things
that creators should be mindful of, or whether they go
through you or they work through your programmer, or they
just kind of get into licensing together just before we
wrap up.

Speaker 2 (50:04):
Yeah, And I think, just like with bloggers at the
very beginning, there's opportunistic people that show up and it's
a money grab, which makes me insane. So there's a
lot of these incubators that are unproven that you still
have to pay a lot of money to or they
keep like seventy percent of your IP, which to me

(50:25):
is like a crime. Like I feel like if you
have built your IP that unless you're bringing in a
partner where you can choose that you're giving them with
this amount of money, like unless there's an operating partner
that you're bringing in, Like, these incubators shouldn't be taking
seventy percent of your IP, which means that they could
own seventy percent of your digital footprint that you've been

(50:48):
working on for the last five years. Like it is
so opportunistic and it makes me insane. So watch out
for the incubators. I'm not saying they're all like that,
just there's some of them that you just have to
make sure that you continue the ownership of your IP.
I would pay money to them in a retainer before
I gave up any of my IP. And that's the
best part about licensing is that you don't need to

(51:09):
give up any of your IP. You retain one hundred
percent of it.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
And so I don't think a lot of people would
even have known that. I think people would think, well,
I have to give equity, like or I have to
give a piece of my IP. So you're saying, actually, no,
from an ownership perspective, you own it.

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Tell us more, you own one hundred percent of your
IP when you're licensing, and yeah, and they give you
a royalty in exchange, a royalty on sales on net sales.
So when you're licensing, and it's traditional licensing at this point,
I'm licensing for Sincerely Jewels, for Happily Gray. There's a
bunch of them that I'm handling licensing, just straight licensing

(51:49):
for their brand. Like when you see product out in
the world, this is product licensing that people receive royalties
of net sales. So that is what you're getting, and
that's what they're getting in exchange, is a percentage of
sales and so your brand and your brand DNA, your
IP has to be strong enough with a strong enough

(52:09):
point of view for somebody to understand the DNA of
the brand and then to put it on luggage, to
put it on apparel, to design product soft home that
would be represent representative of your brand. There has to
be a very clear point of view. I think Jenny
Sipletti and Kuchina Sipiletti does an amazing job of creating

(52:30):
the most like it is very clear what her brand is.
So if you create like very compelling DNA of a brand,
then somebody is going to be like, wait, that would
be amazing on stationary. You just need an agent to
then take your brand book and pitch it. But you
own one hundred percent of the IP. They're just licensing
it for a certain amount of time. So don't give

(52:52):
away your IP, Like, don't give that away unless somebody
is coming in and is like, I'm going to give
you a million dollars for twenty percent and you need
it and you want to do that, Like, that's up
to you, But don't let like a random incubator take
your IP so you don't have to pay them a
retainer to develop product.

Speaker 3 (53:09):
Please, oh my gosh, so good. It's final words. Please
don't guys.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
I love that well, Jen, thank you so much. I
don't want to take up any more of your time.
This has been beyond helpful. I will leave links below
to the creator's path to product. I'll also leave links
to your website. Is there anywhere else that you want
like our friends to be able to connect with you.

Speaker 2 (53:32):
I think the thinks are great. You can also put
me up at jen pel fourteen. I probably will get
back to you if I'm not dealing with my teenagers,
but so hit me up and go to Hello gp Inc.
Go to a Lemon HQ. We're running like some really
fun focus groups with gen Z for brands and stuff.

(53:52):
Like we're doing like a bunch of things I want
to be.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
I'm a focus you know. That's that's the that's the
business side of me. I love a good focus group.
I love the good you know.

Speaker 3 (54:01):
I love that. That's amazing. Thank you Jen so much,
and thank you all for listening in. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
Thanks guys,