Inspire Change SEASON 7-309 The Man Box for Boys

Episode Transcript
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(01:09):
work together to inspire change.

Speaker 2 (01:12):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:12):
Thank you for your continued support, and let's keep inspiring
change together.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
You're listening to Inspire Change, the broadcast that strives to educate, motivate,
and empower men to challenge traditions of masculinity to guide
us through the intricacies and interceptions of emotions, relationships and
male identity is renowned psychologists, author and speaker Gunter Swubota.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
This is Inspire Change.

Speaker 5 (01:40):
Before I begin the actual podcast, I would like to
respectfully acknowledge the gategor people of the or nation, who
are the traditional custodians of the lane on which I work.
I would also like to pay my respects to their
elders past and present. Come everybody to another episode of

(02:02):
Inspired Change with Gunta.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
I'm your host. I'm everybody to another episode who Inspired
Change with Gunta. I'm your host. And today I want
to bring a.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Couple of things together.

Speaker 1 (02:14):
One is that there's a brand new Australian survey and
boys and masculinity very interesting. And I also want to
intertwine with that my own research on what I call
the masculine introject and I'll.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
Explain that as I get to it.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Now. If you care about boys, father's schools, therapy or
the future of masculinity, this one's for you. So let
me set the scene. A recent national survey of Australian
adolescents the age between fourteen and eighteen was conducted by
the Men's Project at Jesuit Social Services, and it was

(02:52):
summarized by Professor Michael Flood, a longtime researcher on men,
masculinities and violence. Now, in some ways, unfortunately, the findings
are both familiar and disturbing. They tell us quite a bit.
What is it that they do tell us? Well, Firstly,
the pressure on boys to be real men is still strong.

(03:18):
Most boys don't fully buy into the rigid stereotram, but
a solid minority still holds beliefs that are harmful to
themselves than others. And the more strongly boys cling to
those rigid norms, the more likely they are to hurt

(03:39):
or be hurt. Now, I want to walk you through
some of the key findings because they're really quite interesting,
and they also intersect with my work, my research on
what I call the masculine introject, that is that internal
voice that ties a boy's worth to control, competence and invulnerability.

(04:04):
So let me start with the survey. The research looks
at what they call the adolescent man box, a set
of twenty seven rules about how a real man is
supposed to think, feel, and act, and there are six findings.
In plain language, pressure to be manly is still intense.

(04:30):
Around sixty to sixty three percent of both boys and
girls said that people expect teenage boys to be confident, strong,
and manly at all times. Now that's important. It means
that boys aren't just imagining this. Girls see it too.

(04:52):
So the culture that we're in still broadcasts a very
clear message You're allowed to be a boy, but only
if you stick to the script. Secondly, most boys are
more open minded than the stereotypes, which is really interesting.
So there is some good news. When you look at

(05:14):
all twenty seven man box rules, most boys don't endorse
most of them. In fact, there are only three rules
that got majority support. So the caricature of teenage boys
as a pack of ridges, sex and struggleottes is fundamentally

(05:35):
lazy and is certainly wrong, but there is a sting
in the tail. Somewhere between one in five and one
in ten boys hold attitudes that excuse or support violence
and control in sex and relationships, and about one in
five reported engaging in bullying, physical violence, or.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Sexual or harassment in the previous month.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
So it's not all boys, and it's not just a
few bad apples. It's a sizable minority living alongside a
more open minded majority, boys are still more likely than
girls to believe the rigid norms. Third, Essentially, what that

(06:24):
means is that there's a clear gender gap. Boys and
girls both see the social pressure, but boys are much
much more likely to personally endorse the manbox stuff. For example,
statements about constantly trying to act manly are endorsed by

(06:44):
roughly a quarter to almost half of boys, only about
eight to fifteen.

Speaker 2 (06:50):
Percent of girls.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
Rules about emotional restriction get support from about seven to
thirty four percent of the boys, compared to two to
fourteen percent of the girls. So boys are not only
feeling the pressure, they also more likely to internalize it.
Now that gap has consequences on lots of stuff, friendships, dating, classrooms.

Speaker 2 (07:21):
If twice as.

Speaker 1 (07:22):
Many boys as girls believe that they have to hide
fear in sadness, that shapes how they show up with
one another in the relationship. A lot of boys now
think boys have it harder. We see a complicated mix
of support for equality and a sense of male grievance.

(07:47):
Almost everyone in the survey agrees that boys should treat
girls and women as equals. At the same time, about
forty two percent of boys and thirteen percent of girls
agree that in Australia today, boys.

Speaker 2 (08:01):
Have it harder than girls.

Speaker 1 (08:02):
So boys are hearing a language of equality, but many
feel that they're the ones now on the back foot.
That perception can come from multiple places, real male vulnerabilities
like suicide rates and school disengagement, defensive reactions to changing

(08:23):
gender roles, and the influence of the manner sphere, those
online spaces that frame boys and men as.

Speaker 2 (08:34):
Victims of feminism.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
The survey can't fully disentangle all that, but it shows
the tension. One of the other things the survey showed
was that peers and parents matter a lot. The research
confirms that many of us see clinically parents and peers
are powerful shapers.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
Of boys attitude.

Speaker 1 (09:01):
Now, the data in particular lines up with other studies
showing that when fathers strongly endorse traditional male ideology, their
sons are more likely to do the same. So this
isn't just about media or TikTok. It's about what boys

(09:22):
see and hear at home, on the sports field and
in the group chat. Now here's the really important one,
and that is the stronger the norms, the more the harm.
And this is the final point in this survey that
was summarized. The survey shows that the more strongly boys

(09:48):
buying to Richard masculine rules, the worse the outcome. Boys
who sit deep in the manbox are less likely to
seek helpful personal issues, it's likely to say that anyone
really knows them, more likely to blame victims of domestic violence,
more likely to consume violent pornography, and far more likely

(10:11):
to admit to bullying, physical violence, and sexual harassment. One
figure stands out. Among boys with the highest support for
the man box, around thirty nine percent reported using bullying,
physical violence, and sexual harassment in the past month, compared

(10:33):
with about seven percent among boys with the lowest support.
So this isn't just an abstract cultural debate. The man
box shows up in wherever boys feel known, whether they
seek help.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Or whether they harm others.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
The article ends with a clear call, if we're serious
about this, we need to scale up gender equality and
especially the approaches in schools, parenting programs, sports workplaces, and online spaces.
And we need to address both boys pain and the harm.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Some boys do. So that's the landscope.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
Now let me put this inside what I call the
masculine introject which is the inner echo of the man box.
In my own work, I've been developing this idea because
I'm looking at how does that play out in therapeutic relationships,
because as a male therapist, I need to acknowledge that

(11:45):
I can be as prone to this as somebody else. Now,
in many respects, I've done many years of therapy and training,
so I'm less likely maybe to respond unconsciously to the
man box norms. So what am I saying with the

(12:06):
masculine introject? Well, in plain terms, it's an internalized voice
that says your worth as a male depends on being
in control, being competent, and not being vulnerable. But this
is not just a set of beliefs that you could
maybe debate over coffee. It is literally a felt authority inside.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
Your head and your body.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
So when you hear this joke, back tears because this
isn't the time.

Speaker 2 (12:46):
Push through the pain. Because mealmen don't complain. Feel like
a failure.

Speaker 1 (12:52):
If you can't fix something, immediately hide your confusion because
you're supposed to have it together. That's when they voice
that masculine introject comes into play. What this new survey
describes on a social level is that the man box,

(13:12):
the pressure, the gender gap, the link to harm is
precisely what the masculine introject looks like on a psychological level.
Think of it this way. The survey tells us how
common the man box rules are and what they predict.

(13:32):
The masculine introject is what happens when those rules move
inside a boy and become his inner commentator. So when
the study finds that over half a boys feel pressure
to be confident and strong, a significant minority actively endorse

(13:55):
emotional restriction, and those who cling hardest to the rules
are more lonely and violent, then the masculine introject is
a good candidate for the mechanism that links all that together.
It's the bridge between out there and in here. So

(14:18):
how might this look like inside the boy's mind. Well,
let's make this a lot more concrue. Take a fifteen
year old boy who knows and he said that boy's.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
Crying is okay.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Ha's heard about mental health and speaking up, but still
feels ashamed every time his voice shakes. Socially, he might
be a part of the majority. You don't fully endorse
the old script. Internally, his masculine introject.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Is alive and well.

Speaker 1 (14:53):
So in a moment of distress, it might say, don't
fall apart, You'll look weak. If you up and up,
they'll use it against you.

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Speaker 1 (16:40):
You should be able to handle this alone. Now, notice
the alignment with the survey. He it's the pressure to
be strong and in control is emotional restriction, and there's
a reluctance to seek help. Now imagine he lashes out
of someone. The same voice might then attack him. You're

(17:02):
out of control, you're dangerous, You're a bad person. Now
he swings between performing toughness and a secret in a shame,
and he doesn't feel truly known by anyone. The survey
numbers about boys feeling unknown and not seeking help match

(17:24):
that pattern disturbingly well. So when we talk about shifting masculinity,
we can't just preach new ideas in front of the classroom.
We have to go after the internalized critic that's running
an identity test. One important norance in the conversation piece

(17:49):
is the call to balance pain and privilege. Boys suffer
underreged masculine norms, and some boys also use those norms
to justify harming others. The masculine introject captures the double
reality nicely. On the pain side, the introject says punished

(18:10):
boys for being sad, scared, or confused. It erodes this
sense of being known and loved as they are, and
it drives them away from help, especially when they most
need it now. On the privileged side, the same introject
legitimizes dominance in friendships and dating, casts girls and femininity

(18:34):
as lesser or dangerous, and licenses violence is a way
to assert control. So the inner critic doesn't hurt the boy,
it also teaches him it is acceptable to hurt in

(18:55):
order to regain his status. That's why the survey link
between strong man box endorsement and higher bullying, harassment, and
victim blaming is so significant. The more rigid the masculine introject,
the more a boy will punish himself internally and external
that punishment onto others. If we ignore either side, we

(19:20):
miss the full picture. So the survey also.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
Highlights the role of parents and peers.

Speaker 1 (19:28):
Especially dad's sons tend to mirror the level of traditionalism
they see in their fathers. From a psychological point of view,
that's exactly how an introject is formed. A boy just
doesn't copy what his father says. He copies the tone
of voice, the body language, the way his father treats

(19:50):
his own pain, the silence around certain topics. And if
a dad never asks for help, the boy also learns
that help seeking is unmanly. If dad mocks softness in
other men, the boys learned being gentitle is risky. If

(20:11):
peers ridicule vulnerability, the boy learns feelings.

Speaker 2 (20:15):
A social death.

Speaker 1 (20:19):
Over time, that chorus of messages condenses into a single
eternal voice that sounds like authority. And that's the masculine introgic.
So when we talk about changing masculine culture, it's not
just a slogan. It's about interrupting the transmission of that

(20:41):
inner critic across generations. So where's my research heading. Well,
in my own research, both clinically and academically, I'm very
interested in how this masculine introject operates in therapy and
in the training of therapists, especially male therapists, because here's

(21:03):
the difficult truth. Many male clients bring a strong masculine
introject into the therapy room, and many male therapists have
their own, partly hidden version of it. For the client,
the introject says, don't be too needy, don't make a

(21:24):
fuss and fall apart. For the therapist it can say
you must have the answers, you mustn't show uncertainty, and
you must be the calm expert at all times. Now,
I'm sure by now you can see the problem. Two
men sitting in a room, both police by their inner

(21:46):
critic and.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
About feeling unknown.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
That doesn't quite magically vanish at at They walk straight
into adult life, into workplaces, into relationships, and yes, into
their therapy. So my part of research, the part of
my research that I'm putting out there, is asking, how
do we help male clients identify their masculine introgect, how

(22:12):
do we train male therapists to recognize and work with
their own, and how can this concept support broader programs
like the ones the article calls for in schools sports
than in communities, because if we can name this in
a critic and loosen its grip, those social interventions suddenly
have more room to land. So let me bring this

(22:33):
to ground level. If you're a parent, especially your father,
this research is a mirror. Ask yourself, what do my
son see me doing with my own stress? Do they
ever see me admit I'm struggling? Do they see me apologize?
Do they see me ask for help from a friend,

(22:54):
a partner, a professional, Because if they never see that,
your words about it's a tall will be drowned out
by the unspoken rule real men cope alone.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
Now, if you're an educator, coach, or youth worker, this survey.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
Is a warning and an invitation, a warning that a
substantial minority of boys still hold attitudes that excuse violence
and silence emotion. It's an invitation to build curricular team,
cultures and rituals that actively contest that, not by shaming boys,

(23:33):
but by widening their options. If you're a therapist, especially
a male therapist, I'd invite you to notice your own
version of the masculine introject. What does it say to
you when you don't know what to do with a
client where you feel moved or tiary. In a session

(23:54):
you're criticized or challenged. If you're in a critic says
you mustn't showed that, then you know the manbox is
in the room with you as well.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
And if you're a young man listening.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
I want to say this very clearly, you're not crazy
about feeling pressure. The survey shows that you're right.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
It's there.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
Many boys do feel it. The masculine introject.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Is loud, but it's not you. It's a set of
inherited rules that can be examined, question and rewritten.

Speaker 1 (24:29):
So simple reflection to take away What I want to
leave you with is one small reflection linked to the
exercise I've used in talking about the masculine introject before.
Sometime this week, when you feel yourself shutting down emotionally,
getting harsh with yourself, or avoiding asking for help, pause,

(24:53):
ask what is the man voice in my head saying
right now? Try to catch one sentence, just one. It
might be don't be weak, sort yourself out. No one
wants to hear this.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
Notice it.

Speaker 1 (25:09):
You don't have to argue with it. Just recognize that's
not the voice of my deepest self. That's the man
box talking through me. Now, if you want to go
a step further, ask if a fourteen year old boy
I care about came to me with this problem, would
I speak to him like that.

Speaker 2 (25:29):
If the answer is no, you've already created a crack
in the introject.

Speaker 1 (25:34):
The crack is where a new, more human masculinity can grow.
So to pull it together. The new Australian survey shows
that rigid villain stereotypes are still shaping boys lives. My
work on the masculine introject helps explain how those external

(25:54):
expectations become an inner critic. That police is boy's emotions,
relationship and help seeking and it's not conscious. My largest
subconscious and unconscious. If you want real change, we need
both large scale cultural work in schools.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
Families, and communities.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
And deep psychological work that helps boys and men confront
the inner voice that says you only count if you're
in control. So, if you've been listening to inspire change me,
and if this is resonated, please share it with somebody else.
Share it with a parent, a teacher, or a coach,

(26:34):
or a young man who might.

Speaker 2 (26:36):
Need to know he's not alone in this.

Speaker 1 (26:40):
So until next time, take care of yourselves and take
care of each other until next time.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
This is me signing.

Speaker 6 (26:50):
Off, Hello and welcome to all our listeners. This week,
we would like to express our gratitude to those of
you listening in Alaska. Your continued support has brought Alaska
to number eight on the top ten listeners list for
the first time ever. Congradulations and thank you to all

(27:10):
our listeners in Anchorage for bringing your state to number eight,
and our deepest gratitude for promoting positive social change. We
now take a look at our global listeners list and
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(27:56):
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(28:17):
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most importantly, please keep inspiring positive social change.

Speaker 1 (28:31):
Love to hear from you, and if you're just died,
please check out my work on www Dot Gotoda.

Speaker 5 (28:41):
Dot com or www Dot Gutman Grete dot com.

Speaker 4 (28:48):
Thank you for listening to Inspire Change, a broadcast st
us to educate, motivate, and empower men to challenge traditions
of masculinity. For more information on the Making good Men
Great movement, or for individual group coaching sesships with Gunter,
visit Goodman Grade dot com.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
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Inspire Change SEASON 7-309 The Man Box for Boys

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