December 18, 2025 • 29 mins
MATT WATSON is a 5x founder, seasoned CTO, and current CEO of Full Scale—a software development staffing company with a team of over 300 engineers. Matt is obsessed with building teams that think like owners. Matt’s the host of the Product Driven podcast and author of the best-selling book by the same name, written to help engineering leaders stop babysitting and start building teams that lead themselves.
After two decades in tech, he’s seen what happens when developers are treated like ticket-takers: low morale, wasted effort, and products no one asked for. That’s why he’s made it his mission to help teams build the opposite—high-trust, high-impact engineering orgs that actually ship what matters.
CONTACT DETAILS
Company: Full Scale
Email: spo81rty@gmail.com
Website: https://fullscale.io/
Social Media:
LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattwatsonkc/
Remember to SUBSCRIBE so you don't miss "Information That You Can Use." Share Just Minding My Business with your family, friends, and colleagues. Engage with us by leaving a review or comment on my Google Business Page. https://g.page/r/CVKSq-IsFaY9EBM/review Your support keeps this podcast going and growing.
Visit Just Minding My Business Media™ LLC at https://jmmbmediallc.com/ to learn how we can help you get more visibility on your products and services.
After two decades in tech, he’s seen what happens when developers are treated like ticket-takers: low morale, wasted effort, and products no one asked for. That’s why he’s made it his mission to help teams build the opposite—high-trust, high-impact engineering orgs that actually ship what matters.
CONTACT DETAILS
Company: Full Scale
Email: spo81rty@gmail.com
Website: https://fullscale.io/
Social Media:
LinkedIN - https://www.linkedin.com/in/mattwatsonkc/
Remember to SUBSCRIBE so you don't miss "Information That You Can Use." Share Just Minding My Business with your family, friends, and colleagues. Engage with us by leaving a review or comment on my Google Business Page. https://g.page/r/CVKSq-IsFaY9EBM/review Your support keeps this podcast going and growing.
Visit Just Minding My Business Media™ LLC at https://jmmbmediallc.com/ to learn how we can help you get more visibility on your products and services.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
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Speaker 4 (01:46):
Welcome, Welcome to Just Minding My Business.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I hope you had a having an amazing day and
I'm excited to bring to you today. Met Watson, who
is a five time founder, season CTO and Karen's CEO
a full Scale, which is a software development staffing company
with a team of over three hundred engineers. Matt is
(02:12):
obsessed with building teams that think like owners. Matt's the
host of the Product Driven podcast and also the author
of the best selling book by the same name, written
to help engineering leaders stop babysitting and start building teams
that lead themselves.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Wow, I like that. It's so welcome.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Yeah, thanks for having me today.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Absolutely, So let's just get right into this and I definitely.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Have some questions to ask. Let me give me a
minute here. I had them sitting right here in front
of my face and then they just walked away.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Okay, So the first thing I'd like to talk to
you about is what startup founder get wrong about engineering teams?
Speaker 6 (03:03):
Well, usually it's a few things. You know, they over
complicate things, you know, they try and build stuff for
the future, right where when you're first building a product,
it's more about validating that does some even have this need?
Does some make care about the product? How do I
find customers that want to use this thing? How do
I get people to pay for it? So it's really
about doing the almost the littlest amount of work possible
(03:27):
to make sure that somebody even cares about what you're building.
Where a lot of software engineers, you know, it's like
their legos. They want to build cool stuff with their legos.
They don't quite understand the business side of it, and
they tend over complicate things.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
So I have to agree.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I've worked in the I T space for many, many,
many many years, and new software, you know, the user
really has to tell you whether it is they are
booking for and sometimes they can't and always say it.
They don't say it the way the engineer, well the
(04:04):
tech person says it, but they say exactly what they
need in their language.
Speaker 6 (04:12):
Yeah, I would describe it like you have to be
a doctor, right, Like if I'm interviewing you and you're
telling me about your problems. It's it's more like they're
your symptoms, right, Like I got a headache, I got
a stomachache. You know, you're not really you're not really
saying like exactly what the problem is, you know, And
as software engineers and kind of problem solvers, we have
to sort of figure it out. It's like, Okay, well
(04:34):
they say this, but we know this other thing. We
know that, you know, we know that's actually a bad idea.
They keep saying that, but we know that's probably not
going to work. And you know, how do you read
between the lines right and kind of figure out what
what's the right solutions? Like you've got to be a
little to a doctor.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Yes, there's a lot of questioning, you know. It's almost
like coaching.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You've got to prove, improve, and prove to just see
the actual results they're looking for. Sure, So what product
driven engineering actually look like in a team.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
Well, it's kind of related to what we just said.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
It's like we got to get the engineers to ask
those questions, like ask the hard questions, really understand like
why are we building this thing? Why is this a
problem we need to solve instead of just sitting around
waiting for somebody to tell them what to do, you know,
like and the problem with a lot of big companies
is software engineers are kind of treated that way. They're
treated like order takers, like here's the requirements, go build
(05:30):
this thing. Don't ask any questions. Higher ups already made
these decisions. Just go build it. And by the way,
build it faster.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Let's go right.
Speaker 6 (05:38):
And you know, it makes it hard for them to
be like, hey, we know this doesn't work, or there's
got to be a better idea, or hey, the product
already does this other thing.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Why are we doing that?
Speaker 6 (05:47):
You know, like they don't get the ability to do
to do that, to have as much creativity or ask
questions or push back, but we need them to. Like
they they're the ones a lot of times are the
closest to the software thederstand how it works or maybe
building software for five, ten, twenty years, right, Like they've
worked a lot of places. They know what works, they
know what doesn't work. You know, you're describing your problems
(06:10):
and the other person might have twenty years of experience
at solving those problems. You don't ask them like, well,
what do you think is there a better way to
do this?
Speaker 5 (06:17):
You know, and so it really starts as.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
It's a leadership problem, right, Like leadership has to let
the software engineers be creative and have a voice and
bring more to the table. But yeah, it's a leadership problem.
We've got to encourage that. But we've also got a
champion it.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Yeah, and that's so true.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I mean because I've been on many, many A teams
bringing up you know, full facilities on the computer side,
and luckily in some of those spaces, I had management
that listened and really paid attention to what the team
(06:59):
was saying. So you're absolutely right, it's a two way street.
It's not sit down, do this with no questions.
Speaker 6 (07:09):
That's the way it works the best. And that's what
we discovered at full scale. You know, we have two
hundred and seventy five software engineers or so to work
for us. It's like which ones are the best developers
and which are the ones that struggle? And the ones
that struggle are the ones that they just don't ask
a lot of questions and they just say okay, they
say yes, and you know, like those are the ones
that struggle. You we've got to have people that have
(07:30):
the courage to speak up and ask questions and push
back and it helps create a better product and have
more ideas. But it requires the right business culture and
leadership that you know welcomes that.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yes, and I mean and that almost applies to every business, absolutely, yeah.
But sure, so tell us a little bit about full
scale and exactly how you provide this think outside the
box strategy to companies.
Speaker 6 (08:03):
Yeah, so it started back in twenty seventeen. I needed
to hire about ten software engineers and at that time
especially very hard to find, very expensive, and started full
scale with another gentleman in the Philippines, providing amazing engineering
talent for myself and then potentially other people. And didn't
realize that providing it to other people was going to
(08:25):
turn into a business. And we hired about one hundred
people back over that first year or so in twenty eighteen.
And yeah, today now we have over three hundred employees
and have helped over two hundred companies scale their engineering teams.
And so it's a lot of fun, are you know?
We create kind of a win win win for our clients.
You know, it's a win for them, it's a win
(08:46):
for the talent and our employees, and that makes a
win for us, right, it's our goal. So it's have
to connect great talent, create great opportunities for them, and
help our clients solve the challenge of finding great talent.
So it's it's always hard to find really good software engineers.
You know, the market's a little different today, but you know,
it's still always hard to find really good people.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So yeah, yes, and once you have those those people,
it's definitely important to hold on to them.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
So let me ask you.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Okay, a company hires you, what's the process.
Speaker 6 (09:28):
Yeah, so they'll come to us and tell us about
their tech stack and their needs. You know, they're looking
for a mobile developer or a Java script developer, you know,
kind of what the job requirements are. And a lot
of times we have people available. If not, we can
go recruit people, but we'll you know, we'll send them
some some online resumes basically that they can look at
(09:48):
some online profiles and they can interview our team members,
make sure they're a good fit and hire us hire
our team to work for them. And we don't have
any contracts either, so makes it pretty non commit. If
we don't perform, our team doesn't perform, then it's no
big deal. But you know, over ninety percent of the
time it works great. So you know we're about nine
hundred so which is good.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Okay, awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So when your team comes into a project, let's just
set the communication that happens to make sure that they
have clarity and like we spoke about earlier, be able
to ask questions and you know, really see the big pictures.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
How does that work?
Speaker 6 (10:38):
Yeah, So that one of the things that we do
that makes a big difference is, you know, traditionally a
lot of people, if they had a big IT project
they would need to do they may hire an outside vendor,
and where that usually falls apart is they have a
project manager in between, and that project manager kind of
plays the telephone game. You tele a project manager, we
need to do X, and then they go tell the
(10:59):
developers and then the developers aren't necessarily able to ask
questions directly, you know, to the customer that wanted this
thing built, and so we don't do that. So, you know,
we do more of a staff augmentation approach, so our
team members work directly for our clients, so our clients
can talk to them every single day.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
And that also means we have.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
To hire a lot better software engineers, because if our
software engineers could hide behind a project manager, they don't
necessarily have to be as good at their job. They
don't necessarily have to have great communication skills, right, Like
project manager can cover up a lot of potential problems, right,
And that's what happens in a lot a lot of
these companies. But when your product, you know, is our team,
(11:44):
our team members are our product, right, So our team
members work directly for our client. They've got to be
really good. They've got to have good communication skills. But
that's what eliminating that telephone game is really critical. So
our team members can ask questions and validate assumptions and
bring ideas, you know. That's that's why works.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely yeah, because communication is king if you
want to get get it right.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
It's everybody.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
I mean I always tell people like, you know, even
when we have like zoom calls and stuff like I
want to I want a ready to have their camera on.
I want to be able to tell them something, look
in their eyes and tell did they understand what I
just told them?
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Or are they confused?
Speaker 6 (12:26):
You know, like so much of communication as even body language, right,
it's like only able to watch people and make sure
do they.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Understand what I'm telling them? You know, and you're building software.
Speaker 6 (12:35):
It's really important, Yes it is, Yes it is.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So what's the skill tech leaders should be hired for
right now?
Speaker 6 (12:45):
Well, it's definitely product thinking, you know, And that's that's
what I wrote my book about, was how important product
thinking was.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
You know.
Speaker 6 (12:53):
The limiting factor of building software has never been how
fast can you write the code right? Like and today
we can use AI to write code, you know, millions
of lines of code every day if you want it
right to just turn out stuff. The limiting factor has
always been why are we building it? How are we
building it? What matters to the customer? Does this solve
the customer's problem? Why are we building this thing over
(13:14):
this thing? Why do we build it this way instead
of this way?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Like?
Speaker 6 (13:18):
You know, it's a million different of those sort of
higher level product you know decisions and architecture decisions that
are really the limiting factor. You know. It's it's really
about how do the software engineers think, do they understand
the customer and why? And the higher level thinking that's
even more important, especially if AI is going to write
(13:39):
more and more of the code. You know, you've got
to understand the big picture and the why to even
explain to the AI, like go write the code to
do this thing, Like you've got to be able to
explain that to the AI.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
So yeah, So since you're talking about your book, what
will readers take away?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
I know you just lay we have some things. What
other things would they take away from the book?
Speaker 5 (14:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (14:04):
That the book is kind of a summary in some
ways of my twenty five year career of going from
software engineer to entrepreneur and CTO and kind of lessons learned.
And it was great writing the book to kind of
self reflect like why do I think the way I think?
Why do I do things the way I do them?
And so it's sort of a combination of all that,
(14:24):
but what it really boiled down to it was great.
Of all the self reflection is just kind of learning
how do I think and how do I do things
and maybe a little different way with this sort of
product thinking mentality and building a model to explain it
to everybody else of how you could also do this.
So I ended up creating, accidentally a model which had
(14:45):
five components to it, and we could talk through the
components to help, you know, explain to engineering leaders like
these are the five things that really matter, and here's
how you train you know, these habits and things into
the team. And the most important one is the one
you mentioned earlier, which is clarity on the.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Five Gotta be clear, so you know you're gonna have
to give us the fab We.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
Are okay them all right? So it starts with vision.
Speaker 6 (15:15):
And when I say vision, I don't mean some silly
like HR tagline from the HR department. I mean vision
of like why are we doing this thing today? Why
are we doing this thing this week? Like why does
this thing matter? And make sure everybody understands like why
are we doing this thing? Like the big picture? Why
does this thing matter? Right? And then second is focus,
(15:38):
Why are we doing this thing over that thing?
Speaker 5 (15:40):
And why are we doing this thing.
Speaker 6 (15:42):
To help the customer or to help the business right,
and saying no to everything else, like how do we
focus on what really really matters, which is the customer?
ULTI it's always a customer and making sure that we're
driving that focus, Like once we know what the vision is,
we kind of know where we're going. How do we
make sure everybody else is focused on that, right, Like,
that's the first two things, and the third is clarity.
(16:03):
It's because I refer to clarity as kind of the
fuel at software engineers, is very easy for them to
get confused or not sure what to do all day long.
If they don't understand you know, why are we building
this or different technical decisions. You know, it's easy for
them to get stuck and then they have to wait
and ask somebody else for help. Right where As a leadership,
(16:25):
if we're constantly driving the kind of higher level vision
and the focus and driving this sort of clarity on
a daily basis, it's easy for them to like.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
You know what, I'm not sure what to do.
Speaker 6 (16:36):
But you know, I remember we had a meeting about
this last week, and the CEO spent a lot of
time talking about how important this was, how important it
was to our customer.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
You know, based on what he said last week, I think,
I know what we need to do.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
Let's let's just do this and then we'll double chuck
later when we have our stand up if I got
it wrong, you know, like, if they don't have that
sort of clarity, they just get stuck, you know. And
I feel like from a leadership perspective, the more direction
we can give them, driving that kind of clarity, why
are we doing this, what's in scope?
Speaker 5 (17:05):
Do this, don't do this?
Speaker 6 (17:06):
The things you need to know, all that kind of stuff.
That's what really propels them forward, I think is really
really important. And the fourth one is what I refer
to as shared ownership, and that is the goal, Like,
the only way to scale is to delegate and create
ownership in these teams. Otherwise you've got leaders that are
(17:27):
the hero and the bottleneck. And for a company to
really grow, they've got to learn to delegate and that
requires creating ownership within the teams. And I refer to
it as shared ownership because there's usually never any one
person that has full ownership rights usually shared. Everybody has input.
Everybody has an idea and opinion. You know, from the
CEO all the way down to one of the software engineers,
(17:50):
support sales. Everybody else has ideas, right, So you know,
ownership is really key and trying to get to shared ownership.
And the fifth one, which I think is the most important,
is courage.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
And that's actually the one that kind of.
Speaker 6 (18:04):
Started this a year ago at full scale, we talked
about you know which developers we see that are really
really good and which ones that are struggle. And the
ones that struggle are the ones that lack courage. They
lack the courage to speak up to ask the questions, right,
They're the ones that are just they don't want to
say a lot. They just say okay. They don't want
to speak up, they don't want to get in trouble,
they don't want to make mistakes, right. And so that's
(18:25):
the thing we work a lot on at full scale
is like how do we drive that Courage is really important,
but from a leadership perspective, we have to recognize that
and even as leaders, we have to have courage to change,
to change the culture, to change how we do leadership,
to create a safe environment for our team.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
So if they do ask questions, you.
Speaker 6 (18:45):
Know, we don't shut them down, we don't dismiss them,
we don't make fun of their dumb questions.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
You know, hopefully we reward them. We reward them for like.
Speaker 6 (18:52):
Hey, that I'm so glad you asked that question. Ask
more questions tomorrow. That means you care, thank you. Right,
So it's all about creating that that culture. And I
think courage is the foundation of it, you've got to
have people have got to have the courage to step
up and care and want to do more.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yes, and then and like you've mentioned that carriage comes
from feeling comfortable within the culture to do so.
Speaker 6 (19:20):
Yeah, there's got to be psychological safety, right, Like, especially
in software engineering, we want to move fast, we want
to make some assumptions, we want to keep moving forward,
and there's always some risk of involved, like you know,
do we do this the wrong way? I mean, you
can sit around forever trying to you know, prevent and
eliminate risk, right, you know, and some of that is
(19:42):
just decision making. It's like, once you know there's a
seventy percent chance that you're doing something wrong the right way,
it takes you know, magnitudes more time to get to
eighty percent confidence or ninety percent confidence, and you never
get to one hundred percent competents, right, So it's the
same thing. It's like teaching the team, like, hey, when
you you feel super confident, like seventy eighty percent chance
(20:02):
we're doing this the right way, let's go and if
we get it wrong, it's okay, we'll.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Learn from it, you know.
Speaker 6 (20:07):
But that creates that you know, requires that kind of
psychological safety and the right culture and the right team
that has that in the DNA. And as leaderships, we
have to like build that into the DNA of the team.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yes, absolutely, and that's critical, so critical. Before we go on,
how do companies connect with you? How how do we
get the book?
Speaker 6 (20:29):
So my book Product Driven is on Amazon. You can
get it on Amazon, and you mentioned earlier. I host
a podcast and I have a newsletter also called product Driven.
So you go to product driven dot com and find
more about all those things. But probably the easiest thing
is to follow me on LinkedIn. I have over seventy
thousand followers on LinkedIn, and I post fun things every
(20:50):
day on LinkedIn. So give me a follow.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Okay, Okay, So you've scaled and sold multiple companies and
we've already talked a lot about leadership. So what are
some of the lessons that you've learned along the ways.
Speaker 5 (21:09):
Well, I think one of the most important things is.
Speaker 6 (21:15):
Being best known for what you do beats being best
at what you do every time. And you know, especially
as entrepreneurs and business people, were always focused on like
being the best whatever it is, Like we want to
be the best, like McDonald doesn't sell the best hamburgers,
but they're the best known for selling hamburgers, right and yeah,
and you know even the local plumber wherever you live.
(21:38):
You do not know the best plumber that lives in
your town. You don't know them, you'll never know their name.
But you know the company who is the best known plumbing,
Like they run the most TV ads, they have the
most trucks driving around your neighborhood, right. Like. The thing
is entrepreneurs that that and really it's anything in life,
like is realizing like you can be the best at
what you do, but if nobody knows that you do it,
(21:59):
you really doesn't even matter. And so we've you've got
to focus more on people recognizing your abilities, even as
just an individual, maybe in your career, your job, but
as a company. You know, the company has got to
focus on the marketing and getting your name out there
and people knowing who you are is always the most
important thing.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yes, And I always said you best kept secret if
no one knows.
Speaker 6 (22:26):
Yeah, that's another great way to put it.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes, indeed, so let me ask you this, what changed
when you find when you stepped out.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
And just just let me code what is that about well, you.
Speaker 6 (22:46):
Know, as a software engineer, none of us really ever
get proper training on how to be a manager, how
to be a leader, right, And so we're problem solvers,
we're highly logical people, and so it's very difficult for
us to go from being an individual contributor to being
a manager because when you go to be a manager,
you're no longer really solving very many problems that are
(23:08):
very logical. You're just solving emotional problems with all of
your team. You're dealing with their emotions, like how do
I motivate them, how to make sure they're happy, that
they're successful, that all that kind of stuff, right, And
it's super, super difficult to make that change and definitely
something I struggled with and it took me, you know
till I was into my thirties to really realize all
(23:31):
of that and understand, like, you know, I have to
stop writing the code every day and start focusing on
how to make everybody else more productive and make them
make sure they understand why are we here and what
are we doing, and what the vision is and clearly
they need to be successful and instead of me just
trying to solve all the problems yes.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yes, And I always like it to be a team effort,
you know, in terms of solving problem because I don't
have all the answers and obviously tell you I don't know,
I don't have it, So how collectively can we get
this resolved?
Speaker 6 (24:07):
And that's the only way you create that shared ownership? Right,
is that kind of mentality, It's like I can't be
the person has the answer to every problem in this
this team. I can't. I can't Like you guys have
got to figure some things out.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yes, absolutely, And once you build that culture.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
They want to Yep.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
I think it's important because they then have a higher
sense of purpose.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
Right if if you're just taking orders all day and
you just get handed stuff on your desk, you like,
go do this thing, Go do this thing, Go do
this thing. And then and then especially if you don't
even see the results of it, you're like, I don't know.
I did my thing, and now you're breathing down my
neck to do the next thing.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
You know, they lose sight of like what are we
doing here?
Speaker 6 (24:53):
Why am I doing this?
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Like I don't feel motivated to do this?
Speaker 6 (24:56):
Right, Where if they have a sense of purpose or
like hey, I understand why we're doing this.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
I can see what we did last week. I can
see how it impacted our customers.
Speaker 6 (25:04):
I heard great feedback from my customers. I'm so excited
because I made their day better, their life better, Like
I'm excited today to go do something else to make
their life better today. You know, that's so much more motivating.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
But in big.
Speaker 6 (25:15):
Companies, unfortunately, that doesn't happen a lot. You know, it's
just breathing down your neck, get this thing done, get
this thing, get this thing burns people out. They understand
why what they're doing, why they're doing it, and.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
They don't feel valued, which is most important.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
I mean, we all expect money for what we do,
but the value just makes you want to do it
even more.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
You feel appreciated and value.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
For sure, that works for me because when I don't
feel valued, I don't want.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
To do nothing.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
And that's across all things in life, right Like you
know your significant other did the dishes, telling them thank
you goes a long ways.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
You know, it's all the little things in life.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
So absolutely absolutely so your podcast talk a little bit
about that and where people can find it.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:09):
So I originally hosted a podcast called startup Hustle for
over seven years and we did like over a thousand
episodes of it, and then I kind of switched it
up to doing the Product Driven podcast, which is a
little more focused on software entering leadership kind of a
high level. Yeah, you can check it out on Spotify,
It's on YouTube and Apple and you know, all the
different places. And I always enjoy talking to awesome people,
(26:34):
just like talking to today, and yeah, good to meet
and interview lots of cool people.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
So yes, yes, indeed, I love what I do. You
get to meet people, you know, with different.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Perspectives and a lot of times what I find they
say it different, but across the boet you hear it a.
Speaker 6 (26:54):
Lot a lot in life, there's a lot of the
same fundamentals, right, yes, And I think that's what was
unique about my book is I don't think I was
telling any telling telling anybody anything that's like super unique,
But it was more about telling it in that lens.
It's like specifically for software engineering and those kinds of
leaders how these lessons apply, Like a lot of these
(27:18):
lessons are not that unique, but it's how they apply
to this group.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yes, yes, yes, indeed, and that's important I mean, everybody
needs guts and as we learn things throughout our life.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
We should be sharing it, simple as that. So again, man,
how do people connect with you?
Speaker 6 (27:44):
Well, you can check out full scale if you need
to hire software engineers, check us out at full scale
dot io and definitely give me a follow on LinkedIn.
Just look up Mott Watson and you can check out
product driven dot com learn more about the book, podcast, newsletter,
all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
So when do your podcast? When do you normally drop
your your episodes?
Speaker 5 (28:04):
I think it's every Thursday.
Speaker 6 (28:06):
Okay, you're putting me on the spot to remember, now,
I think it's every Thursday.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Well that's when I dropped mines every.
Speaker 6 (28:13):
Thursday, So all right, engage with that. All right, Well,
this has been.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Definitely the bomb dot com. You've just definitely added a
lot of value.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
To me and I'm sure our listeners are going to
feel the same way. And I like the fact that
you talked a lot about the leadership because leadership is
really important whether you're running the business, whether you're running
the household, raising kids, it's kind of you need leadership skills.
Speaker 5 (28:50):
Having kids might have been the best thing for me.
Speaker 6 (28:52):
That was a whole new thing to learn. I got
five of them.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Oh well wow, So yes, you've definitely had a lot
to mind all those different personalities.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
Yes for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
So thank you so much, Met for stopping by. I
appreciate you. And thank you audience for stopping by as well.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
All right, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, thank you to our guests and you our values audience.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
But stop you by. We truly appreciate you. Many blessings
to you and yours.
Welcome to Just Minded My Business Media LLC, where you
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Speaker 2 (00:10):
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Speaker 4 (01:46):
Welcome, Welcome to Just Minding My Business.
Speaker 1 (01:49):
I hope you had a having an amazing day and
I'm excited to bring to you today. Met Watson, who
is a five time founder, season CTO and Karen's CEO
a full Scale, which is a software development staffing company
with a team of over three hundred engineers. Matt is
(02:12):
obsessed with building teams that think like owners. Matt's the
host of the Product Driven podcast and also the author
of the best selling book by the same name, written
to help engineering leaders stop babysitting and start building teams
that lead themselves.
Speaker 4 (02:32):
Wow, I like that. It's so welcome.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Yeah, thanks for having me today.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
Absolutely, So let's just get right into this and I definitely.
Speaker 4 (02:45):
Have some questions to ask. Let me give me a
minute here. I had them sitting right here in front
of my face and then they just walked away.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Okay, So the first thing I'd like to talk to
you about is what startup founder get wrong about engineering teams?
Speaker 6 (03:03):
Well, usually it's a few things. You know, they over
complicate things, you know, they try and build stuff for
the future, right where when you're first building a product,
it's more about validating that does some even have this need?
Does some make care about the product? How do I
find customers that want to use this thing? How do
I get people to pay for it? So it's really
about doing the almost the littlest amount of work possible
(03:27):
to make sure that somebody even cares about what you're building.
Where a lot of software engineers, you know, it's like
their legos. They want to build cool stuff with their legos.
They don't quite understand the business side of it, and
they tend over complicate things.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
So I have to agree.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I've worked in the I T space for many, many,
many many years, and new software, you know, the user
really has to tell you whether it is they are
booking for and sometimes they can't and always say it.
They don't say it the way the engineer, well the
(04:04):
tech person says it, but they say exactly what they
need in their language.
Speaker 6 (04:12):
Yeah, I would describe it like you have to be
a doctor, right, Like if I'm interviewing you and you're
telling me about your problems. It's it's more like they're
your symptoms, right, Like I got a headache, I got
a stomachache. You know, you're not really you're not really
saying like exactly what the problem is, you know, And
as software engineers and kind of problem solvers, we have
to sort of figure it out. It's like, Okay, well
(04:34):
they say this, but we know this other thing. We
know that, you know, we know that's actually a bad idea.
They keep saying that, but we know that's probably not
going to work. And you know, how do you read
between the lines right and kind of figure out what
what's the right solutions? Like you've got to be a
little to a doctor.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
Yes, there's a lot of questioning, you know. It's almost
like coaching.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
You've got to prove, improve, and prove to just see
the actual results they're looking for. Sure, So what product
driven engineering actually look like in a team.
Speaker 5 (05:06):
Well, it's kind of related to what we just said.
Speaker 6 (05:08):
It's like we got to get the engineers to ask
those questions, like ask the hard questions, really understand like
why are we building this thing? Why is this a
problem we need to solve instead of just sitting around
waiting for somebody to tell them what to do, you know,
like and the problem with a lot of big companies
is software engineers are kind of treated that way. They're
treated like order takers, like here's the requirements, go build
(05:30):
this thing. Don't ask any questions. Higher ups already made
these decisions. Just go build it. And by the way,
build it faster.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Let's go right.
Speaker 6 (05:38):
And you know, it makes it hard for them to
be like, hey, we know this doesn't work, or there's
got to be a better idea, or hey, the product
already does this other thing.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Why are we doing that?
Speaker 6 (05:47):
You know, like they don't get the ability to do
to do that, to have as much creativity or ask
questions or push back, but we need them to. Like
they they're the ones a lot of times are the
closest to the software thederstand how it works or maybe
building software for five, ten, twenty years, right, Like they've
worked a lot of places. They know what works, they
know what doesn't work. You know, you're describing your problems
(06:10):
and the other person might have twenty years of experience
at solving those problems. You don't ask them like, well,
what do you think is there a better way to
do this?
Speaker 5 (06:17):
You know, and so it really starts as.
Speaker 6 (06:20):
It's a leadership problem, right, Like leadership has to let
the software engineers be creative and have a voice and
bring more to the table. But yeah, it's a leadership problem.
We've got to encourage that. But we've also got a
champion it.
Speaker 4 (06:33):
Yeah, and that's so true.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
I mean because I've been on many, many A teams
bringing up you know, full facilities on the computer side,
and luckily in some of those spaces, I had management
that listened and really paid attention to what the team
(06:59):
was saying. So you're absolutely right, it's a two way street.
It's not sit down, do this with no questions.
Speaker 6 (07:09):
That's the way it works the best. And that's what
we discovered at full scale. You know, we have two
hundred and seventy five software engineers or so to work
for us. It's like which ones are the best developers
and which are the ones that struggle? And the ones
that struggle are the ones that they just don't ask
a lot of questions and they just say okay, they
say yes, and you know, like those are the ones
that struggle. You we've got to have people that have
(07:30):
the courage to speak up and ask questions and push
back and it helps create a better product and have
more ideas. But it requires the right business culture and
leadership that you know welcomes that.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Yes, and I mean and that almost applies to every business, absolutely, yeah.
But sure, so tell us a little bit about full
scale and exactly how you provide this think outside the
box strategy to companies.
Speaker 6 (08:03):
Yeah, so it started back in twenty seventeen. I needed
to hire about ten software engineers and at that time
especially very hard to find, very expensive, and started full
scale with another gentleman in the Philippines, providing amazing engineering
talent for myself and then potentially other people. And didn't
realize that providing it to other people was going to
(08:25):
turn into a business. And we hired about one hundred
people back over that first year or so in twenty eighteen.
And yeah, today now we have over three hundred employees
and have helped over two hundred companies scale their engineering teams.
And so it's a lot of fun, are you know?
We create kind of a win win win for our clients.
You know, it's a win for them, it's a win
(08:46):
for the talent and our employees, and that makes a
win for us, right, it's our goal. So it's have
to connect great talent, create great opportunities for them, and
help our clients solve the challenge of finding great talent.
So it's it's always hard to find really good software engineers.
You know, the market's a little different today, but you know,
it's still always hard to find really good people.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
So yeah, yes, and once you have those those people,
it's definitely important to hold on to them.
Speaker 6 (09:15):
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
So let me ask you.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Okay, a company hires you, what's the process.
Speaker 6 (09:28):
Yeah, so they'll come to us and tell us about
their tech stack and their needs. You know, they're looking
for a mobile developer or a Java script developer, you know,
kind of what the job requirements are. And a lot
of times we have people available. If not, we can
go recruit people, but we'll you know, we'll send them
some some online resumes basically that they can look at
(09:48):
some online profiles and they can interview our team members,
make sure they're a good fit and hire us hire
our team to work for them. And we don't have
any contracts either, so makes it pretty non commit. If
we don't perform, our team doesn't perform, then it's no
big deal. But you know, over ninety percent of the
time it works great. So you know we're about nine
hundred so which is good.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
Okay, awesome, awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So when your team comes into a project, let's just
set the communication that happens to make sure that they
have clarity and like we spoke about earlier, be able
to ask questions and you know, really see the big pictures.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
How does that work?
Speaker 6 (10:38):
Yeah, So that one of the things that we do
that makes a big difference is, you know, traditionally a
lot of people, if they had a big IT project
they would need to do they may hire an outside vendor,
and where that usually falls apart is they have a
project manager in between, and that project manager kind of
plays the telephone game. You tele a project manager, we
need to do X, and then they go tell the
(10:59):
developers and then the developers aren't necessarily able to ask
questions directly, you know, to the customer that wanted this
thing built, and so we don't do that. So, you know,
we do more of a staff augmentation approach, so our
team members work directly for our clients, so our clients
can talk to them every single day.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
And that also means we have.
Speaker 6 (11:21):
To hire a lot better software engineers, because if our
software engineers could hide behind a project manager, they don't
necessarily have to be as good at their job. They
don't necessarily have to have great communication skills, right, Like
project manager can cover up a lot of potential problems, right,
And that's what happens in a lot a lot of
these companies. But when your product, you know, is our team,
(11:44):
our team members are our product, right, So our team
members work directly for our client. They've got to be
really good. They've got to have good communication skills. But
that's what eliminating that telephone game is really critical. So
our team members can ask questions and validate assumptions and
bring ideas, you know. That's that's why works.
Speaker 1 (12:01):
Yes, absolutely, absolutely yeah, because communication is king if you
want to get get it right.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
It's everybody.
Speaker 6 (12:11):
I mean I always tell people like, you know, even
when we have like zoom calls and stuff like I
want to I want a ready to have their camera on.
I want to be able to tell them something, look
in their eyes and tell did they understand what I
just told them?
Speaker 5 (12:24):
Or are they confused?
Speaker 6 (12:26):
You know, like so much of communication as even body language, right,
it's like only able to watch people and make sure
do they.
Speaker 5 (12:32):
Understand what I'm telling them? You know, and you're building software.
Speaker 6 (12:35):
It's really important, Yes it is, Yes it is.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So what's the skill tech leaders should be hired for
right now?
Speaker 6 (12:45):
Well, it's definitely product thinking, you know, And that's that's
what I wrote my book about, was how important product
thinking was.
Speaker 5 (12:52):
You know.
Speaker 6 (12:53):
The limiting factor of building software has never been how
fast can you write the code right? Like and today
we can use AI to write code, you know, millions
of lines of code every day if you want it
right to just turn out stuff. The limiting factor has
always been why are we building it? How are we
building it? What matters to the customer? Does this solve
the customer's problem? Why are we building this thing over
(13:14):
this thing? Why do we build it this way instead
of this way?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Like?
Speaker 6 (13:18):
You know, it's a million different of those sort of
higher level product you know decisions and architecture decisions that
are really the limiting factor. You know. It's it's really
about how do the software engineers think, do they understand
the customer and why? And the higher level thinking that's
even more important, especially if AI is going to write
(13:39):
more and more of the code. You know, you've got
to understand the big picture and the why to even
explain to the AI, like go write the code to
do this thing, Like you've got to be able to
explain that to the AI.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
So yeah, So since you're talking about your book, what
will readers take away?
Speaker 4 (13:57):
I know you just lay we have some things. What
other things would they take away from the book?
Speaker 5 (14:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (14:04):
That the book is kind of a summary in some
ways of my twenty five year career of going from
software engineer to entrepreneur and CTO and kind of lessons learned.
And it was great writing the book to kind of
self reflect like why do I think the way I think?
Why do I do things the way I do them?
And so it's sort of a combination of all that,
(14:24):
but what it really boiled down to it was great.
Of all the self reflection is just kind of learning
how do I think and how do I do things
and maybe a little different way with this sort of
product thinking mentality and building a model to explain it
to everybody else of how you could also do this.
So I ended up creating, accidentally a model which had
(14:45):
five components to it, and we could talk through the
components to help, you know, explain to engineering leaders like
these are the five things that really matter, and here's
how you train you know, these habits and things into
the team. And the most important one is the one
you mentioned earlier, which is clarity on the.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Five Gotta be clear, so you know you're gonna have
to give us the fab We.
Speaker 5 (15:10):
Are okay them all right? So it starts with vision.
Speaker 6 (15:15):
And when I say vision, I don't mean some silly
like HR tagline from the HR department. I mean vision
of like why are we doing this thing today? Why
are we doing this thing this week? Like why does
this thing matter? And make sure everybody understands like why
are we doing this thing? Like the big picture? Why
does this thing matter? Right? And then second is focus,
(15:38):
Why are we doing this thing over that thing?
Speaker 5 (15:40):
And why are we doing this thing.
Speaker 6 (15:42):
To help the customer or to help the business right,
and saying no to everything else, like how do we
focus on what really really matters, which is the customer?
ULTI it's always a customer and making sure that we're
driving that focus, Like once we know what the vision is,
we kind of know where we're going. How do we
make sure everybody else is focused on that, right, Like,
that's the first two things, and the third is clarity.
(16:03):
It's because I refer to clarity as kind of the
fuel at software engineers, is very easy for them to
get confused or not sure what to do all day long.
If they don't understand you know, why are we building
this or different technical decisions. You know, it's easy for
them to get stuck and then they have to wait
and ask somebody else for help. Right where As a leadership,
(16:25):
if we're constantly driving the kind of higher level vision
and the focus and driving this sort of clarity on
a daily basis, it's easy for them to like.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
You know what, I'm not sure what to do.
Speaker 6 (16:36):
But you know, I remember we had a meeting about
this last week, and the CEO spent a lot of
time talking about how important this was, how important it
was to our customer.
Speaker 5 (16:44):
You know, based on what he said last week, I think,
I know what we need to do.
Speaker 6 (16:47):
Let's let's just do this and then we'll double chuck
later when we have our stand up if I got
it wrong, you know, like, if they don't have that
sort of clarity, they just get stuck, you know. And
I feel like from a leadership perspective, the more direction
we can give them, driving that kind of clarity, why
are we doing this, what's in scope?
Speaker 5 (17:05):
Do this, don't do this?
Speaker 6 (17:06):
The things you need to know, all that kind of stuff.
That's what really propels them forward, I think is really
really important. And the fourth one is what I refer
to as shared ownership, and that is the goal, Like,
the only way to scale is to delegate and create
ownership in these teams. Otherwise you've got leaders that are
(17:27):
the hero and the bottleneck. And for a company to
really grow, they've got to learn to delegate and that
requires creating ownership within the teams. And I refer to
it as shared ownership because there's usually never any one
person that has full ownership rights usually shared. Everybody has input.
Everybody has an idea and opinion. You know, from the
CEO all the way down to one of the software engineers,
(17:50):
support sales. Everybody else has ideas, right, So you know,
ownership is really key and trying to get to shared ownership.
And the fifth one, which I think is the most important,
is courage.
Speaker 5 (18:01):
And that's actually the one that kind of.
Speaker 6 (18:04):
Started this a year ago at full scale, we talked
about you know which developers we see that are really
really good and which ones that are struggle. And the
ones that struggle are the ones that lack courage. They
lack the courage to speak up to ask the questions, right,
They're the ones that are just they don't want to
say a lot. They just say okay. They don't want
to speak up, they don't want to get in trouble,
they don't want to make mistakes, right. And so that's
(18:25):
the thing we work a lot on at full scale
is like how do we drive that Courage is really important,
but from a leadership perspective, we have to recognize that
and even as leaders, we have to have courage to change,
to change the culture, to change how we do leadership,
to create a safe environment for our team.
Speaker 5 (18:43):
So if they do ask questions, you.
Speaker 6 (18:45):
Know, we don't shut them down, we don't dismiss them,
we don't make fun of their dumb questions.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
You know, hopefully we reward them. We reward them for like.
Speaker 6 (18:52):
Hey, that I'm so glad you asked that question. Ask
more questions tomorrow. That means you care, thank you. Right,
So it's all about creating that that culture. And I
think courage is the foundation of it, you've got to
have people have got to have the courage to step
up and care and want to do more.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yes, and then and like you've mentioned that carriage comes
from feeling comfortable within the culture to do so.
Speaker 6 (19:20):
Yeah, there's got to be psychological safety, right, Like, especially
in software engineering, we want to move fast, we want
to make some assumptions, we want to keep moving forward,
and there's always some risk of involved, like you know,
do we do this the wrong way? I mean, you
can sit around forever trying to you know, prevent and
eliminate risk, right, you know, and some of that is
(19:42):
just decision making. It's like, once you know there's a
seventy percent chance that you're doing something wrong the right way,
it takes you know, magnitudes more time to get to
eighty percent confidence or ninety percent confidence, and you never
get to one hundred percent competents, right, So it's the
same thing. It's like teaching the team, like, hey, when
you you feel super confident, like seventy eighty percent chance
(20:02):
we're doing this the right way, let's go and if
we get it wrong, it's okay, we'll.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Learn from it, you know.
Speaker 6 (20:07):
But that creates that you know, requires that kind of
psychological safety and the right culture and the right team
that has that in the DNA. And as leaderships, we
have to like build that into the DNA of the team.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Yes, absolutely, and that's critical, so critical. Before we go on,
how do companies connect with you? How how do we
get the book?
Speaker 6 (20:29):
So my book Product Driven is on Amazon. You can
get it on Amazon, and you mentioned earlier. I host
a podcast and I have a newsletter also called product Driven.
So you go to product driven dot com and find
more about all those things. But probably the easiest thing
is to follow me on LinkedIn. I have over seventy
thousand followers on LinkedIn, and I post fun things every
(20:50):
day on LinkedIn. So give me a follow.
Speaker 1 (20:53):
Okay, Okay, So you've scaled and sold multiple companies and
we've already talked a lot about leadership. So what are
some of the lessons that you've learned along the ways.
Speaker 5 (21:09):
Well, I think one of the most important things is.
Speaker 6 (21:15):
Being best known for what you do beats being best
at what you do every time. And you know, especially
as entrepreneurs and business people, were always focused on like
being the best whatever it is, Like we want to
be the best, like McDonald doesn't sell the best hamburgers,
but they're the best known for selling hamburgers, right and yeah,
and you know even the local plumber wherever you live.
(21:38):
You do not know the best plumber that lives in
your town. You don't know them, you'll never know their name.
But you know the company who is the best known plumbing,
Like they run the most TV ads, they have the
most trucks driving around your neighborhood, right. Like. The thing
is entrepreneurs that that and really it's anything in life,
like is realizing like you can be the best at
what you do, but if nobody knows that you do it,
(21:59):
you really doesn't even matter. And so we've you've got
to focus more on people recognizing your abilities, even as
just an individual, maybe in your career, your job, but
as a company. You know, the company has got to
focus on the marketing and getting your name out there
and people knowing who you are is always the most
important thing.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
Yes, And I always said you best kept secret if
no one knows.
Speaker 6 (22:26):
Yeah, that's another great way to put it.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes, indeed, so let me ask you this, what changed
when you find when you stepped out.
Speaker 4 (22:37):
And just just let me code what is that about well, you.
Speaker 6 (22:46):
Know, as a software engineer, none of us really ever
get proper training on how to be a manager, how
to be a leader, right, And so we're problem solvers,
we're highly logical people, and so it's very difficult for
us to go from being an individual contributor to being
a manager because when you go to be a manager,
you're no longer really solving very many problems that are
(23:08):
very logical. You're just solving emotional problems with all of
your team. You're dealing with their emotions, like how do
I motivate them, how to make sure they're happy, that
they're successful, that all that kind of stuff, right, And
it's super, super difficult to make that change and definitely
something I struggled with and it took me, you know
till I was into my thirties to really realize all
(23:31):
of that and understand, like, you know, I have to
stop writing the code every day and start focusing on
how to make everybody else more productive and make them
make sure they understand why are we here and what
are we doing, and what the vision is and clearly
they need to be successful and instead of me just
trying to solve all the problems yes.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yes, And I always like it to be a team effort,
you know, in terms of solving problem because I don't
have all the answers and obviously tell you I don't know,
I don't have it, So how collectively can we get
this resolved?
Speaker 6 (24:07):
And that's the only way you create that shared ownership? Right,
is that kind of mentality, It's like I can't be
the person has the answer to every problem in this
this team. I can't. I can't Like you guys have
got to figure some things out.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yes, absolutely, And once you build that culture.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
They want to Yep.
Speaker 5 (24:29):
I think it's important because they then have a higher
sense of purpose.
Speaker 6 (24:34):
Right if if you're just taking orders all day and
you just get handed stuff on your desk, you like,
go do this thing, Go do this thing, Go do
this thing. And then and then especially if you don't
even see the results of it, you're like, I don't know.
I did my thing, and now you're breathing down my
neck to do the next thing.
Speaker 5 (24:50):
You know, they lose sight of like what are we
doing here?
Speaker 6 (24:53):
Why am I doing this?
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Like I don't feel motivated to do this?
Speaker 6 (24:56):
Right, Where if they have a sense of purpose or
like hey, I understand why we're doing this.
Speaker 5 (25:01):
I can see what we did last week. I can
see how it impacted our customers.
Speaker 6 (25:04):
I heard great feedback from my customers. I'm so excited
because I made their day better, their life better, Like
I'm excited today to go do something else to make
their life better today. You know, that's so much more motivating.
Speaker 5 (25:15):
But in big.
Speaker 6 (25:15):
Companies, unfortunately, that doesn't happen a lot. You know, it's
just breathing down your neck, get this thing done, get
this thing, get this thing burns people out. They understand
why what they're doing, why they're doing it, and.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
They don't feel valued, which is most important.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
I mean, we all expect money for what we do,
but the value just makes you want to do it
even more.
Speaker 4 (25:40):
You feel appreciated and value.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
For sure, that works for me because when I don't
feel valued, I don't want.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
To do nothing.
Speaker 6 (25:51):
And that's across all things in life, right Like you
know your significant other did the dishes, telling them thank
you goes a long ways.
Speaker 5 (25:58):
You know, it's all the little things in life.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
So absolutely absolutely so your podcast talk a little bit
about that and where people can find it.
Speaker 5 (26:09):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (26:09):
So I originally hosted a podcast called startup Hustle for
over seven years and we did like over a thousand
episodes of it, and then I kind of switched it
up to doing the Product Driven podcast, which is a
little more focused on software entering leadership kind of a
high level. Yeah, you can check it out on Spotify,
It's on YouTube and Apple and you know, all the
different places. And I always enjoy talking to awesome people,
(26:34):
just like talking to today, and yeah, good to meet
and interview lots of cool people.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
So yes, yes, indeed, I love what I do. You
get to meet people, you know, with different.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Perspectives and a lot of times what I find they
say it different, but across the boet you hear it a.
Speaker 6 (26:54):
Lot a lot in life, there's a lot of the
same fundamentals, right, yes, And I think that's what was
unique about my book is I don't think I was
telling any telling telling anybody anything that's like super unique,
But it was more about telling it in that lens.
It's like specifically for software engineering and those kinds of
leaders how these lessons apply, Like a lot of these
(27:18):
lessons are not that unique, but it's how they apply
to this group.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yes, yes, yes, indeed, and that's important I mean, everybody
needs guts and as we learn things throughout our life.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
We should be sharing it, simple as that. So again, man,
how do people connect with you?
Speaker 6 (27:44):
Well, you can check out full scale if you need
to hire software engineers, check us out at full scale
dot io and definitely give me a follow on LinkedIn.
Just look up Mott Watson and you can check out
product driven dot com learn more about the book, podcast, newsletter,
all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
So when do your podcast? When do you normally drop
your your episodes?
Speaker 5 (28:04):
I think it's every Thursday.
Speaker 6 (28:06):
Okay, you're putting me on the spot to remember, now,
I think it's every Thursday.
Speaker 4 (28:11):
Well that's when I dropped mines every.
Speaker 6 (28:13):
Thursday, So all right, engage with that. All right, Well,
this has been.
Speaker 4 (28:18):
Definitely the bomb dot com. You've just definitely added a
lot of value.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
To me and I'm sure our listeners are going to
feel the same way. And I like the fact that
you talked a lot about the leadership because leadership is
really important whether you're running the business, whether you're running
the household, raising kids, it's kind of you need leadership skills.
Speaker 5 (28:50):
Having kids might have been the best thing for me.
Speaker 6 (28:52):
That was a whole new thing to learn. I got
five of them.
Speaker 1 (28:57):
Oh well wow, So yes, you've definitely had a lot
to mind all those different personalities.
Speaker 6 (29:05):
Yes for sure.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
So thank you so much, Met for stopping by. I
appreciate you. And thank you audience for stopping by as well.
Speaker 6 (29:16):
All right, thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (29:17):
Yeah, thank you to our guests and you our values audience.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
But stop you by. We truly appreciate you. Many blessings
to you and yours.
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