P&S ModCast 400 - The Return of DocGKR - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ultimately, I thought it would be nice to go through
what do sub and duty caliber pistols do to flesh
or people?

Speaker 2 (00:08):
They poke holes in them?

Speaker 1 (00:09):
Yes, and then discuss wade cutters they poke holes and
people and fluted solids.

Speaker 2 (00:17):
They poke holes in people. I like this fast and
light for caliber and pistol. Yes, they either poke shallow
holes or deeper holes. Okay.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
Also, I thought it would be cool to kind of
discuss exactly what the temp cavity is and.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Yeah, it's a temporary area of stretch that stretches a
tissue microsoft for just a brief microsecond and snap back.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
And so and how that may relate to wounding it
generally doesn't. This is gonna this is this is going
to be a highlight reel that has the entire all
the answers.

Speaker 2 (00:55):
Of what I see on YouTube. They conflate temporary and
permanent cavities mixed up. Yes, what else? What else? Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:07):
I don't know how to how to articulate this one. Basically,
the topic was loss of institutional knowledge. Yes, oh gosh,
this is huge, good and deliberate shedding of knowledge to
replace it for something new. And so I think that
was from John hern And I really liked that one,
and so when someone like that brings up that kind

(01:27):
of a topic, it's like, Oh, you.

Speaker 2 (01:29):
Need to be on the panel so you can be
part of this. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:36):
There that.

Speaker 2 (01:37):
Since the dawn of the global War on Terror after
nine to eleven, yeah, and the rise of the Internet,
we have seemed to have lost all of our institutional knowledge,
particularly as all of the good Woman ballistics knowledge is
being classified or restricted a general law enforcement agency and

(01:58):
you know, Joe public citizen has no ability to get
anything that's accurate. Oh, I didn't know that anything worthwhile
you ain't gonna see anymore.

Speaker 1 (02:11):
Oh, because one of my own theory, as you were
discussing this is what's happening is there's so much crap
being published on YouTube. People are using that to replace
it with the real information. I was in a conversation
with someone who they were talking about, Well, Factler, his
studies are old and that doesn't apply, And I had

(02:32):
to ask, Okay, have physics changed? Has human physiology changed? No,
we're still dealing with the same constants. How is Factler's
information outdated?

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Even if it was outdated, organizations like the Joint Service
wom Ballistics Team the CTTSO Tiswig ammunition study, the joint
FBI USMC study that was done. All of those have
been done in the twenty first century, and they build
upon fact work. Yeah, and they don't do anything different

(03:03):
than what Factler did. Yeah. We have more data now
and we have refined certain things, like we no longer
calibrate the block, we validate the block. Yeah, there's little,
little subtle things like that, but in general, the principles
are the same. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
So it's interesting how people get upset when the term yeah,
pistol bullets. Yeah, they're poking holes. People get upset about that. Yeah,
well what about this?

Speaker 2 (03:37):
What about cavity picture that should the slowest projectile made
the largest permanent and temporary cavity, Yeah, and had the
most penetration depth. Yeah, Why it had more mass, more mass. Yeah,
so if you wanted to make a hole, we'd be
using Civil war muskets.

Speaker 1 (03:56):
Yeah, sixty caliber, seventy caliber shotgun slugs. But there's other factors.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
That go into it, Yeah, like controllability, round count, intermediate
berry painter. Although large, heavy mass things tend to crush
the glass very well, I mean steel the glass. Yeahs
of what you're trying to hit and what you're trying
to penetrate, and people conflate and get mistaken about the

(04:24):
wrong shit of the time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Well, and I think it's just so much easier to
go on YouTube and find your favorite YouTuber and just
go base every base your entire personality off whatever they're saying.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
And yeah, have they done a statistically significant sample?

Speaker 1 (04:41):
Oh no, No, it's a it's a YouTube video, or
it's them saying this is what's happening.

Speaker 2 (04:47):
You know, in every law enforcement agency and military unit
in the country, you can go directly to the FBI
BRF get the data from them. Yeah, they still do
the best testing there. There's a reason so Calm gets
all their testing from the FBI and not from Picatinny
or Aberdeen or wherever. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Well, for me, what's wonderful is to get a hold
of you, send you a text if I have a
question about something. Buford Boone has been a good resource
when I ask about Yeah, so when.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
Lucky Gunnar just did there a ten milimeters video? Did
they call Beauford? Did earn some things out? Clearly not?

Speaker 1 (05:21):
Oh, I hadn't seen it.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
It's not bad, but they could have picked up the
phone called Buford. Yeah, or me anyone that has all
that data and are sitting at our fingertips. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, that has been absolutely fantastic, and it's helped me
better understand the bigger picture. And so for me to
understand and actually not just saying, yeah, they poke holes,
well this is why they're just poking holes.

Speaker 2 (05:45):
Yep, makes so much sense.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Yeah, And unfortunately it's lost on a lot of people,
and people just well, nowadays everything is about the easy button.
Everything's fast, everything's now, and you don't need to put
in any effort.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Well, we've lost all of our history.

Speaker 1 (06:00):
Yeah, And so the reason I thought it would be
nice also to discuss wad cutters is because they've I
don't think they've necessarily made it.

Speaker 2 (06:09):
Oh there's chuck.

Speaker 1 (06:09):
I don't know if they've necessarily made it come back,
but they've definitely they're getting attention. That's kind of cool
for a little tiny snubby.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Yeah, in a little snubby, they have more controllability and
they actually punch a better hohole with better penetration except
for glass, their ship against glass.

Speaker 1 (06:28):
Okay, yeah, versus well, if if our jacket and hollow
points can't expand because they have insufficient philosophy because of
lack of barrel.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
I run a one. Yeah, so I run, you know,
cylinder of wad cutters. Then I have holow points to
reload because it's easier. Reloading with wad cutters is slow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
What is that man's stupper mania, man hater mania?

Speaker 4 (07:00):
No, it's ah a collection of like talking about this subject.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
Ah. Oh interesting.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
Stopping power of British farms in Victorian warfare one of
the things that you know, how like for decades I've
listened to people say like, well, you know, if you
don't carry this, you're going to get killed in the street.
Or you know, don't carry a don't carry a nine
millimeter carry forty five or uh. You know, early in

(07:37):
my career when everybody carried revolvers, it was don't carry
one of them jamamatics. You know you got to carry
a wheel gun because you get six for sure. Well,
the funny thing about this book is the the the
people in this Victorian era, like British colonization type style

(07:58):
of stuff, like you know, the dervishes and stuff like that.
And you know what they say, ye had forty fives
and four five fives, lack stopping power and revolvers are
unreliable and can't be trusted. Get yourself a mouser if
you're the handgun you need to carry is a how

(08:19):
daw pistol and five seven seven are bigger.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
So how is the shot placement during these interactions immaterial?

Speaker 4 (08:29):
Immaterial?

Speaker 2 (08:32):
I should say that the British medical records show that
the Martini Henry was a much greater wounder than the
three h three was.

Speaker 4 (08:44):
Well with that early round, those full metal jacket bullet
it was bound to be because that was just ice
picking people. Same thing with the I've seen the right
upside of the Philippine insurrection and all the guys that
advocate for the forty five is the thirty eight was
a failure. Well, the forty fives didn't do any better really,

(09:05):
the thirty forty crag really didn't do well at all
for some reason. The early three oh three did. What
was reliable was twelve gage buck shot at very close range.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
YEP. It's like anything in life, the more tissue you crush,
the more likely you are to won something important.

Speaker 4 (09:25):
So that's I guess why we all need to carry
five seven seven hal Doll pistols.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
Yes, yeah, Well that's why my four or five five
Webley is up on the wall. I don't I don't
care that.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
No says it says right here, the four five five
is unreliable and that's.

Speaker 2 (09:43):
What I carry. I don't carry it for duty. Well
should we start?

Speaker 1 (09:54):
And there's there's one specific topic that Gary is especially
enthusiastic about that I'm very excited to discuss and it's
what Hern brought up, and it was the loss of
institutional knowledge. So that's going to be a cool discussion.
So what I have is basically the basics of terminal

(10:16):
blistics with handguns, with sub and duty caliber pistols.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
What do bullets due to flesh and people.

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Overview of wadcutters, fluted solids, all these screwdriver rounds, all
those other And I got a wonderful text from Gary
explaining I'm saying it like you're not here. Yeah, the
external hollow point is just a silly, silly, silly term

(10:46):
and it doesn't make any sense. But those types of
things discussing that, talking about what temp cavity actually is doing,
as far as the overall incapacitation or wounding in handguns
in people fasten light for caliber, which I know that
that's near and dear to Chuck Aggart's art loss of
institutional knowledge and if you if we really want to

(11:08):
upset people, clear gel versus calibrated ordnance GEL. And I'm
sure we'll come up with some more stuff as we proceed.
So if you guys are ready, I will start it up.
We're already started, but I'll start with the intros and uh,

(11:29):
we'll get going any any any additional topics you guys
can think of that you might want to discuss that
can add to the list. To just make sure that
we don't miss it.

Speaker 4 (11:38):
That a lot of what is sold to people is
by Charlatan's trying to steal your money or you know,
it's the magic being effect. Yeah, you were talking about
the external hollowpoint people, is like the G nine bullet
or whatever.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
I saw some of their guys at a trade show
trigger con down on which ta and as I walked by,
one of their table dudes was telling people how they
are better than hollow points because if you get a
Torso hit, it liquifies everything in the chest cavity. He literally,
he literally used the term liquefy.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
Uh.

Speaker 4 (12:17):
Nowhere nor is. I don't know how you have a
hollow point that isn't hollow, it's a fluted bullet.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yeah, I don't.

Speaker 4 (12:24):
I don't know. Maybe they're trying to get their bullet
banned in New Jersey. I have no idea.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
But oh, that's a good point. It's just it's some.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
Of the claims they make. Is like claiming the earth
is flat. It's just, you know, physically impossible. Yeah, we're
not shooting rail guns.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
Yeah, even if we were, wouldn't necessarily cause some tremendous image.

Speaker 1 (12:50):
Everything was liquified though.

Speaker 2 (12:52):
I mean we shot We shot live animals at Letterman
with rounds in excess of six thousand feet per second. Oh,
ain't nothing anybody's carrying on the street and nothing anybody's
using who's going at that velocity? Yet we shot three
hundred pounds hugs with projectiles at an excess of six

(13:17):
thousand feet per second. And guess what they just stood there?

Speaker 4 (13:24):
What kind of design of projectile was that?

Speaker 2 (13:29):
A variety of different things. Basically, we necked down. We
had a fifty bmg action that we would neck down
and put different projectiles into a different test burrows. Wow,
that sounds awesome. So you know, a lot of conventional
bullets would disintegrate before it left the barrel. Yeah, I
can imagine. We doctor Facler machined a whole bunch of

(13:51):
projectiles out of solid materials. We had some other specialized
things to see what would happen. Because everyone's screaming about
oh high velocity, Well, three hundred feet per second, it's
higher than pretty much anything you can buy, and it
just doesn't matter. What matters what does the projectile do

(14:17):
in the body, what tissue does it impact? And that's
kind of what's important, not how fast the projectile's going.
As I showed you recently, I showed you an example
of a projectile at thirty three hundred feet per second,
one around twenty eight hundred and one below two thousand
and the one that made the biggest hole was the
slow large projectile because of the greater mass.

Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, so it had Yeah.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
That goes right back to what you were staying about
the slugs. It had the largest permanent and the largest
temporary cavity and the most penetration depth, and yet it
was the slowest. So it's not the velocity that matters.
What does it do in the body, What does it hit.

Speaker 1 (14:58):
The idea of neck and down fifty reminds me two.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
Well remember when uh that actually when when everybody was
wildcatting various things, you know, like necking down the weather,
be rounds and things like that. Uh, and some of
the wildcats were all the rage A buddy of mine
and I've heard other people use it, but he was.
He said he was going to invent one and call
it the schnelgas season louden Boomer, I like it.

Speaker 1 (15:28):
So the fast shooting, yeah, loud yeah, yeah, it was.

Speaker 4 (15:36):
It was basically, uh, something to convert gunpowder into velocity
and muzzle blast. There was no noise pointing to it.

Speaker 2 (15:45):
I mean there was something to be said for having
a hand operated flashbag. Those three those those fifty percent
of people roughly that ever have their actions stopped because
they choose to stop. That may play a factor. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:02):
Matter of fact, I just took an officer through Quall,
and before we did it, we talked about, okay, here
are three main ways ways I can't talk how to
stop a bad guy with gunfire, psychological stopping one that's
completely out of our control. And then we talked about
shot placement and all that, and I told him, Okay,
as you're shooting, we have a full silhouette. But please,

(16:24):
if you see your shots go off somewhere, you don't
want them, fix that.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
Fix that right away.

Speaker 1 (16:28):
But we were talking about, Yeah, psychological stops, it's completely
out of our control.

Speaker 2 (16:33):
But when it works, that's awesome.

Speaker 4 (16:37):
That's a discussion Bulky and I had on the when
the one twenty three Vt seven magnum was so popular
it was supposed to be legendary for stopping power that
we were both of the opinion that part of the
effect was you got a beach ball sized muzzle flash
and it's really loud at close range, and particularly out

(16:59):
of like four inch guns, three inch guns. Things like that,
you know, had had a distinct psychological effect on people.

Speaker 2 (17:08):
I know a couple incidents where officers fired shorter barreled
three fifty seven magnuts with one twenty five grand loads
and the gun went off and the bad guy dropped
their gun or ceased their action, and when the paramedics
got there, the guys standing there kind of stunned and
there's no bullet. Wood yep, we had to stop. Pair

(17:30):
was singed. But yes, actually there were burning powdered ground
mules on the shirt. Yes, so that happens, and one
can't quantify that. Yeah, yeah, okay, I'm adding that to
the list magic three fifty seven.

Speaker 1 (17:52):
Because I know Darryl said that he was writing something
specifically about that in the psychological effect regarding especially older
three fifty seven that didn't have flash suppressant in it.

Speaker 2 (18:04):
Yes, that is absolutely accurate. Right before the California High
Patrol switched from three to fifty seven magnum to forty
Smith and Wesson, the load on the state contractors I
think a Reminton one twenty five, and that load had
incredible muscle blast and flash. Yet when you looked at

(18:26):
the autops the results and the shooting incident results, the
load had very poor performance in terms of penetration depth,
intermediate barrier capability each compared to the one eighty forties
they went to next. So that intangible effect may have
played a result, But from the physical factors, the actual

(18:47):
wound in the body, the actual ability penetrate barriers, the
one twenty five three fifty seven magnum paled in comparison
to the one eighty forty shootings. And this is back
when HP was being very careful to gather a lot
of data. Ed Fenzil, who was the firearms chief, was
doing an amazing job gathering data. And you know, because

(19:10):
they were looking at this big switch and they made it,
they had to justify it, and they did some really
good scientific stuff, very similar to Gen Woolberg was doing
down in San Diego. And so we had a lot
maybe seventy six shootings or so where they had really good,
good data on it, and we're able to compare back
and forth between the two and there was just no
question that one eighty forty did better. Interesting, Well, let's

(19:35):
start her up already.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
I can tell you a lot of what we've discussed.
This is going to be part of the final product
because this is just great information. I just love it.
And unfortunately there's that and we'll talk about that, but that, Yeah,
there's not enough of this going on unless I'm talking
to Haggard Bulky and some of the older guys.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
About that a bit. Because all this information has been
known since the late eighties early nineties. It was widely
promulgated by the FBI workshops, by the IWBA, by the
Letterman Army Institute of Research, and that was all well
known until we're going into the two thousands, we have

(20:22):
nine to eleven happened, and suddenly everybody goes and deploys,
and so the pace of deployment is incredibly quick, and
people are focused on the extremely important logistics tactics, et cetera,
and are getting burdened by these multiple back to back deployments,

(20:44):
and so there's not a lot of folks studying, researching,
or keeping up on data. There's a boatload of research
being done based on what was happening. Much of it
was good, but a lot of it was just complete
repetitive waste. Gotcha, millions and millions, if not hundreds of

(21:06):
millions of dollars poured down a sinkhole of stupidity, Like
let's air burst a grenade over our enemy's head when
we're going against a pier. They're going to be wearing
helmets and body armor, and let's put this little small
twenty five milimeter air burst. But yep, when forty milimeter
is already barely adequate, so let's axtend twenty five. Yeah exactly. Yeah.

(21:30):
So there was lots of things like that, caseless lightweight
machine guns. There was tons of that out right or
has been stuck in limbo for twenty five years. Yep. Anyway,
you know all these guys that are deploying, all these
young troopers that come in, young Marines that come in
and say two thousand and one, two thousand and three,

(21:53):
two thousand and five, and then they deploy for the
next twenty years. Yep, pretty much right. And I know
their units had really, really, really good data on nine
to eleven because we provided a bunch of it. In fact,
I was at fitth Group extensively and I was in
contact with some of the other folks. I know Cornado

(22:16):
had it. I know lots of data was available. And then,
you know, fifteen twenty years later, I stick getting phone
calls from Force Modernization folks saying, hey, we need such
and such. I go, well, you guys already have that, Like,
what do you mean. I go, we left all that
information for you back in two thousand and three, back
in two thousand and five, and they're just completely oh,

(22:37):
it's not here, never heard of it. And I think
the problem is so much of the information got classified
after nine to eleven or restricted, that's one thing. And
it's so much easier to go to the Internet and
download some dude that's shooting in his backyard, shooting one
to five shots it unproperly fabricated tissue simulate and go,

(22:58):
oh yeah, that's the answer there, yep. And so we
have this institutional loss of knowledge. We have folks relying
on unvetted material when all they have to do is
pick up the phone and call the fbibrf any law
enforcement agency, any military unit can get real data, and
yet they choose not to for some reason. And I mean,

(23:22):
there's a reason why Silcom goes to the FBI for
testing and not other folks YouTube, Well, certainly not YouTube,
but certainly some of the other parts within the government system.
They've got the best testing in the nation, probably in
the world. Why aren't agencies and units relying on that?

(23:45):
And that's pretty strange in twenty twenty four, approaching twenty twenty.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Five, where everything's connected, it takes nothing to reach.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
Out and you know, any agency can get it, any
unit and it can get it, and yet they're flailing
around making really dumb decisions. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
Well, I've heard a couple of reports of some local
enforcement agencies not local here, but I just mean as
opposed to state or otherwise. But some local agencies picking
up some of this fluted solid stuff versus a gold
dut or an HST. It just it baffles Mete.

Speaker 2 (24:25):
But we tested fluted handgun ammunition back in the late
eighties earlyly nineties for what became the Mark twenty three program.
The stuff it's not new, yeah, and it's not necessarily bad. No,
but it's not new, and it's certainly not magic. You

(24:47):
have a solid projectile with more surface area, and usually
they make the projectiles lighter weight, so you have more
surface area, you have less weight, so it's going to
penetrate less than a standard FMJ Yep, Okay, great.

Speaker 1 (25:02):
So works great in an area where you can't carry
a full meal jacket, that's awesome. Yeah, for that full
mel jacket hollow points, yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
I mean it works better possibly than a full metal
jacket if you need to have optimal penetration depth down.
They put that dialed in. Basically, every handgun in a
duty calver's poking a hole in tissue. It's not liquefying it,
it's not exploding it. It's not creating neural shock, hydrostatic shock.
It's poking a hole. Yeah, if you have a projectile

(25:32):
with a larger diameter, you're going to poke a bigger hole.
If you have more surface area, you're going to have
more drag, so the projectile's going to penetrate a little less.
If you have a really smooth projectile, that's going to
penetrate a little bit more with a little less tissue damage.
If you have a wad cutter with a sharp leading edge,
you're going to poke a more cookie cutter type hole

(25:52):
versus a rounded nose versus rushes through, push through and
push tissue to the side without causing a cut. Yeah,
that is is severe.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
That is truly poking a hole.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah. Then none of this is rocket science, folks, right,
this is basic physiology and anatomy.

Speaker 1 (26:13):
And it's so disappointing because if you stop and think
about it, everything you said makes complete sense. But also
you can back this all up. Yet we have people
that are they have the wool pulled over their eyes
with all this advertising and all these magic bullets and
magic beans, And I don't know, Chuck, if you if

(26:35):
you're still dealing with people like that, but on occasion
I do, and it's just tiresome.

Speaker 4 (26:41):
It's tiresome, constantly on the Internet quite a bit in
the civilian world, and then you know, even in the
police world. We had a local we have a local agency,
small agency here in Kansas that bought off on the
Fort Scott munition. It's a solid copper bullet. It's a

(27:02):
solid copper bullet. It's designed to tumble upon impact t
UI bullets, and they're selling them as better than jacket
of haulow points. One of the things they run around
telling people is, well, you know the military uses bullets
at tumble, so that's that's how you know they're better,

(27:23):
completely ignoring that bullets at yaw. That's just happens to
be an artifact of physics when you use a spitzer bullet.
It's not because it was a design feature that they
went after, and it's just a happy accident that things
like M one nine three ball will yaw and then
typically fragment to really do a lot of good for us. Well,

(27:46):
they don't. They were using it because they want to
abide by the Hageac Cords and laws of land warfare,
not because it was better than jaggeted haulow points or
anything like that. Uh So, what they're selling people is
very very high priced ball ammunition you know you can get.
There's quite a few loads out there. One fifteen green

(28:08):
spear of law Man I've seen in ballistic jail very reliably,
so you know the people, there's a lot of Charlatans
out there. The light for caliber fast fragmenting bullets, the
magic fluted bullets that are supposedly they're not necessarily bad bullets,

(28:29):
but the advertising them is better. The jacket, the hollow
points is a lie bullets at tumble versus bullets that expand,
and things like that. And all of this is that
there's magic bullets that are supposed to be better than
what we've already got going on, is all an attempt
to make a buck. Now, the fluted bullets, I think,

(28:50):
and Gary can correct me if I'm wrong. I think
they're kind of a that they're a pseudo version of
a modern semi wadcutter. They can be useful in certain
caliber like three eighty you know where expanding bullets. My
analogy would be, if you know you're Elmer Keith. So
he went with heavy hard casts led some my wadcutters

(29:14):
y because he wanted a wide flat meplat that cut
and he wanted the bullet to penetrate a lot, and
he'd wanted this because he dealt with big animals elk, bear, moose,
things like that. So if we take that idea of
that flat nose, a cutting meplat, and a bullet that penetrates,

(29:37):
if we shrink the target, then we and we shrink
the bullet. So now instead of bears or elk with
a forty five or forty four, we're using three eighty
as a defensive round. Well, those attributes you want out
of that bullet that Keith was looking for still apply.
They still apply. So if I had a defensive three

(29:58):
eighty shooting, I got a little bullet shooting at a
big target, you know, maybe a big aggressive man. That
would be analogous to shooting at a large you know,
a black bear or grizzly bear or something of the
forty four forty five. I would want those same attributes,
that cutting meplat and sufficient penetration.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
To get the job done.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
So in that regard, like in a three eighty, things
like that makes a lot of sense. That's why a
lot of us advocate wadcutters in like thirty two h
in or Mag thirty eight special in snubnoses, that sort
of thing. So the bullets aren't necessarily bad, but they're
they're hyped, and there's a lot of false advertising the
bullets that are bad, or you know, things that are

(30:42):
high priced full metal jacket that is sold as being
better than everything else, or the light for caliber really
uber fast fragmenting bullets that have very very limited penetration.

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Those are horrible.

Speaker 4 (30:56):
We have documented cases that the bullets like that getting
good people hurt.

Speaker 1 (31:02):
Correct, that would be the worst option I've witnessed firsthand.
What was it a lehigh extreme penetrator will do to
a human skull and then five additional walls on the
other side of that skull, nice clean holes. It killed
the guy, but it also practically was in the neighbor's house.

Speaker 2 (31:26):
But then any solid bullet will do that. Yeah, and
any hallow point of plugs will do that. Yeah, there's
a reason why five five six tends to work better
for indoor shooting than anything else, certainly better than a handgun. Yeah,

(31:47):
fragmentation deflection, lightweight, easily upset upset. I like that, that's
the technical term. The bullet upsets in tissue. That's cool.
It does if it doesn't go straight through. If it
does upset, it yaws, it may deform, it may yaw,

(32:11):
hyper expand and then fragment. For a bullet to fragment,
it flattens, which means that hyper expands. Okay, and when
it hyper expands and defeats the tensile strength of the construction,
it will then shatter. You need to be on more.

(32:32):
I like this. It ain't magic, no, but it's not
discussed enough.

Speaker 1 (32:38):
Unfortunately, the problem.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
Was it was a discussed ad nauseum to the point
where doctor Faclor decided no more discussions needed to put
down i WPA because everything was answered. Then we have
whole new generations of people that are unwilling to read
historical documents, unwilling to read what can before because all
these questions they're answered. Let's go to better questions. Yeah,

(33:03):
but nobody wants to do that. Yeah. I mean, why
did we repeat many of the mistakes of Vietnam in
Afghanistan when we already knew the answers. Why did it
seem like nobody had read Colonel Rothstein's book about unconventional
warfare in Afghanistan and an admit illustrative and political level

(33:24):
when that book. You can buy it at Amazon. I mean,
all of the stuff's out there. You just have to
educate yourself. We have to relive history. Yeah, and again
if you don't want to do that, just call the
FBI up in order the freaking disc if you see
our unit.

Speaker 4 (33:42):
So that because I had and I know also Doc
is not a big fan of clear jail, but I
find it useful for certain use for certain things. And
one of them is explaining things recently I did. When
I do my small guns classes, well, I'll show them

(34:04):
an example of what I'm looking for when I'm looking
for good Handgunamo, why is the FBI criteria for twelve
to eighteen inches et cetera, et cetera. Why is that valid?
Why what am I looking for? And I'll shoot bullets
like one twenty four grand hst comes out and that
that beautiful. You know, that's that's what we want the

(34:25):
bullet to do. And in the sixteen inch clear jail
all the way through the block, even out of this
is out of a glock forty three. Whor's great. So
somebody had some of the liberty Ammo asked me to
shoot it. I explain why it was garbage and all
of the little nose pedals broke off and stopped at

(34:47):
about two three inches in a flower pattern. And this
is what's left. That's what's left. So left is as
small as so hiding that base behind a single pellet

(35:07):
out of a flight control shell that I recovered from
a ballistic joe. So what we have is a the
less mass and similar diameter to a single double lot
buck pellet of a flight control shell. So somebody's going
to tell me that the wounding potential of that, you know,

(35:31):
that's you know, they'll tell you their bullets magic and
it does this magic stuff, uttering, complete bullshit, uttering complete
bullet you know, it's complete charlatans selling this craps.

Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, yesss.

Speaker 2 (35:49):
Go read your history, folks. Yeah. And before that, Glazer, safety,
slug and mag sall everything else that came before trunk
and quick shock. I mean, there's a rezilion of these things.
Nothing new, folks.

Speaker 4 (36:06):
Every time I see one of the light for caliber
fragmenting high velocity rounds, I'm like, we you know, people
act like the Glazer, the mag safe and all this
other stuff didn't hasn't already been tried, hasn't already existed,
and I've seen I've seen two shootings on the street
with glazers and they were underwhelming. They were just completely underwhelming,

(36:28):
uh really kind of minimal tissue damage. One of them
was an arm robbery suspect that got shot in the shoulder,
and we tracked a guy down three weeks later and
it had hit him in the shoulder at an angle
towards the chess cavity. Uh, didn't get past the deltoid muscles.
And somebody, somebody in the hood was a combat medic

(36:49):
and had patched him up and he just walked it off.
Never even went to the hospital, because that's how you
get caught, you know, when you show up to the
ear with a bullet wound, they got to call the cops.
He never even went to the er because the bullet
hit him in the shoulder, fragmented and just came to rest.
One of the other shootings that I saw, a bullet
didn't even fragment. So now it's lightweight round nose ball, ammo.

(37:11):
That that's really underwhelming. The only one I saw where
it did work. The first round stopped dead in the
guy's forehead, and then the liquor store clerk that shot.
The shot the guy again lucked out and the bullet
went right through the jugular notch and just happened to
hit him in between. The bullet actually didn't expand or

(37:36):
fragment or upset, and it hit as a solid mass
into the vertebrae in between two vertebrae, and that that
dropped the guy. But the only reason that one worked
real well was because it didn't do what it was
designed to do, if that makes sense. Yeah, glazers, all

(37:58):
of this, the rip bull, they're all they're all garbage.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, but it's given the doctor so much more work
and they hate that because they have to remove all
the pedals.

Speaker 2 (38:12):
No, not necessarily.

Speaker 1 (38:14):
Well, these are the excuses I hear why it's such
an effective not silliness. No, you got to consider we
are dealing with some of the lowest common denominators that
comes to this kind of stuff and their knowledge, so
we admonstrators.

Speaker 2 (38:32):
Is that what we're talking about?

Speaker 1 (38:33):
No, not quite close, just one step below that, sergeants.

Speaker 2 (38:39):
Okay, well, I guess I better do an official.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Intro, just just because it's important and because Fred needs to.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Talk to even though he's just enjoying this.

Speaker 1 (38:54):
Okay, well here we go. But yeah, I'm going to
keep all everything that we've talked about before because it's
just great.

Speaker 2 (39:00):
I'm very much adjoining it.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
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Hey one, mettlife, you here with Primary Secondary. Welcome to moadcast.

(41:58):
Today's episode number eight is number four hundred. We have
done four hundred of these. It's hard to believe. Today's
date is September two, twenty twenty four. The topic Doc
GKR returns. We have doctor Gary Roberts, mister ballistics I
don't know banned from websites that don't like to hear
the truth, though I understand that's probably going to change

(42:21):
very soon. He was on with us multiple years ago.
That episode was absolutely fantastic. People still refer to it,
they listen to it. Some officers tell me that they
have it as required listening for some of their newbie
officers to have a better understanding of what bullets are doing.

Speaker 2 (42:43):
So I figured, why don't we.

Speaker 1 (42:44):
Talk more about sub and duty caliber pistol, terminal ballistics
because we do have a lot of listeners that are
carrying every day. They aren't necessarily military law enforcement. Definitely
on the military or on the law enforcement side, I'm
carrying a handgun every day when I'm off duty, I'm
carrying a handgun. Why don't we talk about these things

(43:07):
that affect most of us and have a better understanding
of what's out there and how all this works and
also what to avoid. Now, we did start about forty
minutes ish ago, already have had some wonderful conversation. You've
already listened to most of that by thinking about how
I'm editing this right now, but fantastic information so far.

(43:29):
So my background's in law enforcement, been doing the cop
things since last century. This kind of information I absolutely
love because getting into law enforcement not having any clue
about any of this stuff, and I just have to take.

Speaker 2 (43:42):
People's word for it.

Speaker 1 (43:44):
It was it was confusing and when people would talk
about some of this stuff, not understanding what the concepts were,
what the terminology was, or what's actually happening. And as
I delve further and further and started to learn from
good sources like doctor Robert Uh, Chuck Haggard, Chuck Presberg,
Eric Uh, the list continues. Uhh yeah, Sherman House has

(44:10):
been has been fun, Ufford Boone, I'm gonna I mean,
I know I'm forgetting people, but even even Jared resin
with issue and discussing how bullets performed on an aggressive person.
Interesting stuff that normally I wouldn't be able to hear.
And it was absolutely wonderful that I can present this

(44:32):
kind of information to people that are interested in learning
more about it. You may have heard of Doc g
k R. He has, UH he is, He's referenced frequently.

Speaker 2 (44:44):
UH he has.

Speaker 1 (44:45):
The list of these are the go to rounds on
like rfcom and other places share this extensive experience. UH
studied under doctor Martin Fackler. One of the things that
I like to tell people when we start talking about
this kind of stuff is go study those study the
stuff that have that that fact are already produced, and

(45:10):
bear that in mind during these discussions, because this is
basically the foundation of everything that we're going to learn
from here. And so for me, reading through a lot
of this has been absolutely enlightening. And then to have
Gary come on and help translate stuff, and I don't
remember what they were exactly, but I remember several concepts
weren't quite landing for me, and just some plain speak

(45:32):
was able to I was able to understand it so
much more.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
And I just I appreciate these opportunities to have these
types of discussions.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
So I'm going to stop talking. I'm going to have
these guys give some some brief backgrounds.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
Before we go there.

Speaker 1 (45:46):
I'm going to say my favorite thing, make sure you
support those sources that you found to be beneficial. If
these guys bring up any organizations or their own personal
websites or anything like that, pay attention, give them some
like some subscriptions shares, because it's beneficial those algorithms out
there on Instagram, on Facebook, on YouTube, on YouTube, and

(46:07):
a lot of these resources that we use are not
working in our favor. So you, as the listener, get
to help us by being the algorithm and sharing where
we normally wouldn't be shared. So backgrounds and plug whatever
the hell you feel like. Fred surprise guest, Fred.

Speaker 3 (46:26):
Hey, Fred Lucas Scarlettfire bushcraft is my new thing, closing
out a career in the Army and the NSWC Craine
and some time with a couple of different Euros in

(46:48):
the State Department. So I don't know why I'm here.
I'm just I'm really here to listen.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
I can tell you exactly why you're here because you
you log in to listen sometimes and I know, oh,
Fred's gonna have something to say about this, but Fred
has some experience about this. And whether you're gonna whether
you have stuff to comment on or add or just
to listen, it's always just great to have you.

Speaker 3 (47:15):
Thanks.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Yeah. Let's also acknowledge that Fred was instrumental in breaking
up one of the largest frauds in ammunition history.

Speaker 3 (47:24):
That is true.

Speaker 2 (47:26):
It hadn't been for Fred, probably wouldn't have got to
the truth as fast as we did.

Speaker 3 (47:32):
Those were fun times, yes, Sir Awesome Chuck.

Speaker 4 (47:39):
Chuck Haggard Perdon into this. I'm in my thirty seventh
year of law enforcement, lifetime shooter hunter. I'm a nerd.
I'm a big science nerd. I'm an involved and I've
been studying this sort of thing since i was a teenager.

(48:01):
Of course, back then, when people were shooting wet newspapers
and duck seal and clay and things like that, the
information was mostly bullshit. I got into law enforcement right
just short, very shortly after the FBI Miami gunfight. There

(48:23):
was a lot of stuff that came out immediately after
that about bulletin performance and things like that. And then
later we know that there was at least I think
there was at least two big get togethers that the
FBI had on talking about wom ballistics, and eventually they
stood up the Ballistic Research Unit at the BRU and

(48:46):
we started getting really great information out of those guys.
I was early on. As soon as I found out
about the International Moon Ballistics Association, I became a member
of that and was getting the paper journals mailed when
they were doing that. Took great interest in that. I

(49:07):
have managed to hang on to most of those over
the years, even though some of them were loaned to
friends and then disappeared, but have continued to study this
throughout my career, been involved in working and responding to
a lot of shootings on the street, shootings, homicides. You know,

(49:29):
a lot of the shootings went to were not homicides because,
particularly with handguns, most people tend to survive that. I
think the statistic is still something like eight or nine
out of ten people shot with a handguns survived the experience.
But you know, looking at injury patterns and things like that,
and being a nerd and being at the crime scene
and seeing what kind of bullets do, what, what kind

(49:51):
of calibers do what was something I always took great
interest in. I was blessed early on to have access
to like the iWB, but also like our local corner
doc Mitchell would let me sit in on autopsies if
I wanted to, or he would let me know when
he had something he said was interesting and let me

(50:12):
look through pictures and things like that after the post
mortem and we would talk about bullet performance and what
he was seeing that sort of thing. So got a
little bit more well quite a bit more access to
that sort of thing than average cops get to. And
I was also a member of our shooting or view
board and eventually the supervisor and the co chair with

(50:34):
the deputy chief of that. So it was involved in
quite a few officer involved shooting investigations, be they fatal
or not fatal, So I got to see the aftermass
of those, whatever information we had on those. And I've
always part of this has always been self serving in

(50:56):
that I liked to be able to carry the best
ammunition I could get my hands on. That wasn't always
the case when I was a cop, or you know,
previously when I was in the military. If I'd have
gone to war with my unit in the proverbial World
War three full to gap scenario, I'd have been carrying
an M sixteen A one and M one nine three

(51:17):
am So if I have to use what they give me,
I wanted to understand what it could do and what
it couldn't do. So this study of this has been
something I've done for a very very long time in
a variety of venues.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
And last but not least, and who knows, someone might
also jump in dot GKR.

Speaker 2 (51:42):
Yeah, so I'm just a dentist you're just a dentist,
and I've been doing that for forty years. I did
my residency at Navy Hospital Oakland at at time when
doctor Factor was running the Letterman Armies due to reach
or rud across the bay. And when I finished my residency,

(52:04):
I start commanders if I could go over there and
chat with my Army colleagues, because we would see a
number of gun shot wounds in Oakland, particularly at Highland Hospital,
the local trauma center, and what I was reading in
the medical literature was not matching what we were seeing
in the emergency room or when talking to the police
officers who would bring the patients in. So there's this

(52:26):
large gap. And the one name the literature that made
sense was all these studies coming out of Letterman. So
I went over there with my commander's blessing and talked
to doctor Faclor. He gave me a stack of literature
about a foot thick and said, go read this, so
I did. Fortunately, doctor Fackler had been a Navy surgeon
in Vietnam and switched over to the Army, and his

(52:47):
wife was a Navy nurse Corps admiral, and so he
was the Navy guy coming and chatting with him. And
so after I read that, then we started doing some
searched together, did a couple of paper from the IDWBA.
I's staying out in his lab all the time, and
I became one of three officers that doctor Fackler had

(53:08):
trained before Letterman was shut down and doctor Fackler retired
from the army, Myself, Paul Doherty, and John Y Horchak. Now,
some of you may have seen that Black Rifle Coffee
Company video called The Truth about Blackhawk Down where the
talking about Sergeant Brad Hauling, Sergeant Major Brad Halling's experience

(53:29):
in Mogadishu during Gothic Serpent. And there's a part in
the video where he reunites with a surgeon who operated
on his leg after he was severely wounded. And that
surgeon was John Y Horchak, who was trained by Fackler.
So doctor U Horchak had a lot of experience with
one ballistics goes to Mogadishu, and out of Mogadishu came

(53:52):
a whole new paradigm in Traumacare that the military had
not done up to that point. Pretty much everything we
were doing was wrong in terms of trying to stop bleeding,
and so out of that incident came hypobolymic resuscitation turniquits,
a push toward antiquagulus like quick clock gods and things,

(54:12):
and doctor Hrchak was on the forefront of that. So
if you haven't watched that video, it's definitely worth doing. Oh,
that's very cool. In addition, Lucky Gunner just did a
video on the FBI ten millimeters saga and there's a
couple very short video clips of doctor Fackler and the
lab at Letterman which are kind of nostalgic and fun
to see if everybody wants to see where the all

(54:32):
that came from. I was fortunate to have had a
number of opportunities to do blistics research, both in law
enforcement and in the military. Unfortunately, almost all the data
that's come out of One Ballistic since nine to eleven
has been classified or restricted, and so all of that

(54:54):
open source data that was coming out of Letterman, coming
out of the IWBA has stopped, and you can't have
that kind of information available to the general public or
individual law enforcement agers officers, or military personnel. You would
have to get it at a unit level or at

(55:16):
an agency level, and that takes it very easy to do,
but you actually have to do it. Yeah, if you
are sitting around at home and you look it up
on the internet, ninety plus percent of what's on there
is flawed and inaccurate. And in fact, just about every
field that I'm an expert witness on, the information's inaccurate.

(55:38):
So I would be highly skeptical of anything I see
on the internet, sadly, and yet that's where people go
for their research.

Speaker 1 (55:46):
Yep. Well, you know these five websites say the same thing,
so clearly that's the truth.

Speaker 2 (55:53):
Yeah, yeah, nope, need to chuck anyway. So you know,
as we were talking about a bit ago, we have
more information than we've ever had at our fingertips. The
problem now is sorting out the good stuff from the

(56:14):
plethora of boulder dash yep, and marketing claims and just
pure inaccuracy. The synthetic gels are useless, sorry, useless. If
you're going to do a test, do it right. We
know the correlation between properly fabricated and validated ordnance gel,

(56:37):
We know how that works. The synthetic JAEL doesn't have
that same correlation with living tissues, so why use it? Yeah,
it's easier well, a lot of things are easier. It
doesn't make it right. So the other thing I see
is so many of the YouTube videos do one shot
or a couple shots. Well, that's not statistically significant. Sorry.

(57:01):
If you're an officer, get your agency to call the
FBI in order the disc. If you're military unit, get
your command call the FBI and get the disc. There's
no reason to be ignorant when the data is readily available. Yeah,
general public, you're gonna have to work harder. But those
IWBA journals are no longer copyrighted. They're out there everywhere.

(57:25):
The papers from Letterman are out there everywhere. This stuff
is not secret up until about nine to eleven. But
it takes some effort, it does. You have to spend
a few minutes downloading.

Speaker 1 (57:37):
Stuff, yeah, and then actually have to read.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
Yeah. Yep.

Speaker 1 (57:43):
So what you're saying is I could make a million
dollars if I get some of these documents and just
read them so then people can listen. And now I
just gave someone a million million dollar idea.

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Dang it. I shouldn't have said that out loud. Not
because there's idiots like me. They just give this stuff
away for free. Yeah, yeah, so.

Speaker 4 (58:04):
Doc's bid on that as something leads me into something.
I see a lot on the internet, as you have
idiots saying things like, well, I've never been attacked by jelloes.
So I think there's a lot of people that think
that ballistic jail was invented by some nerd in a
lab or the FBI, that the FBI doesn't exactly in

(58:27):
many circles have the best reputation nowadays, disregarding the fact
that the Ballistic Research Unit has nothing to do with
any of that. But one of the things I thought
I'd asked Doc to talk about is how do we
didn't just invent jello and start using ten percent ordnance gelatin.

(58:47):
That there was a process to prove that that a
lot of people don't know of and involved like surgeon input, autopsies,
live tissue labs with the nest tize pigs, et cetera,
et cetera, et cetera. And I was hoping Doc could
speak to the history of how we certified that what

(59:10):
bullets do in ballistic jail is what bullets do in
muscle tissue.

Speaker 2 (59:16):
So you know, World War two, fifties, sixties, et cetera.
There was a NATO standard after World War Two using
twenty percent ordinance gele. It was designed by engineers, and
that was great and all. Now doctor Fackler's a Navy
trauma surgeon in Vietnam treating lots of real world penetrating trauma,

(59:36):
and he transfers from the Navy to the Army, and
he's still continuing his surgical career in the seventies and
in the eighties. He's in six now, and he's seeing
this great disparity in the medical literature compared to what
he actually experienced operating on marines and soldiers with real

(59:58):
penetrating trauma. A gunsh winds, fragments, et cetera. And he goes, hey,
there's something wrong here. These engineers are using this one
data set and it's not matching with what we're seeing.
And there's all these other things, as Chuck was eluding to,
shooting what newspapers and duckt seal and clay and a
bunch of other useless stuff. So doctor Facler sets out

(01:00:19):
when he starts this win Blistics Research Lab the Letterman
Army Institute of Research in San Francisco at the Presidio,
he decides he's going to figure out what is the
ideal material so you don't have to keep shooting live animals.
So they take a bunch of simulants and they start
testing different things, and they shoot some large two to

(01:00:40):
three hundred pound hogs that are anesthetized and try to
make a correlation between the two. And they also start
challenging some of the paradigms that, for example, high velocity
wounds need to be treated differently than lower velocity wounds.
So in the process of all this, the tissue simulant

(01:01:06):
the most accurately represented living tissue was ten percent ordinance gelatin,
not twenty percent, and at a refrigerator temperature, whereas the
twenty percent gelatin was at a slightly warmer temperature which
was harder to maintain. So you have an easily fabricated
ten percent gel that you can store in a regular

(01:01:27):
refrigerator that almost exactly matches living muscle tissue. In addition,
in shooting these large animals, when you did the traditional
surgery of the time with wide scaled debridement of tissue
if it's a high velocity wound, and not doing that
if it's a low velocity wound, as if the surgeon
knows the velocity. The animals that got the traditional degreement

(01:01:50):
of a high velocity wound couldn't walk afterwards because they
have lost so much tissue. Whereas if you took the
wound and did nothing, maybe put the animal on antibiotics,
even if it was a three five hundred foot per
second wound, the animal could walk fine after it healed.
So the surgery in many times was actually causing more
morbidity than the gunshot wound did, depending on what the

(01:02:12):
projectile did in tissue and what it hit right, and
so we learned that you treat the wound, not the weapon.
The velocity was pretty irrelevant what the projectile did in
the body, what tissue did it touch, how did it
disrupt that tissue, what anatomic structures were injured. That is

(01:02:34):
what you treat based on your clinical exam and imaging studies.
You're not treating the velocity. You're not treating if it's
a rifle or assault rifle or handgun or submachine gun.
That's all irrelevant. What matters is what did the projectile do.
We did tests with projectiles in excess of six thousand
feet per second on living tissue, and if the projectile

(01:02:57):
did not upset in tissue. The animal got a band aid,
a band aid, and it was fine in a few days. Now,
six thousand, six thousand, three hundred, five hundred feet per
second is dramatically faster than any rifle we're using in
the real world, be it military, hunting, civilian, whatever. The
ethos animals were not terribly disrupted, Their insides were not liquefied,

(01:03:19):
they didn't have hydrostatic shock, they didn't have any of
these catchwords that are bandied about by ammunition companies. So
we know that that is plain prevarication when these companies
talk about this stuff, and as a result, we fall

(01:03:40):
back on our science, our anatomy, our physiology, and again,
what does the projectile do in the body? Now, if
I have a bullet going six thousand feet per second,
it disintegrates on impact and doesn't say it hits the
back of my arm, it doesn't get past my humors, well,

(01:04:01):
not much is going to happen. What if I'm shot
with a forty five seventy going fifteen hundred feet per
second and it completely obliterates a six in section of
my humorous and comes out the other side taking a
large teacup size volume of tissue out with it. Well,
my arm is an't gonna work. So the velocity is
less and important again than what it does and what's injured.

(01:04:23):
And that's really what matters. And when we're talking handguns,
handguns are just poking little holes in tissue, whole whole,
whole hole. And you hope you hit something important. Ye.

Speaker 1 (01:04:36):
Now when you say hit something important, yes, what would you?
What are obviously heart? Obviously CNS?

Speaker 2 (01:04:43):
Hold on CNS is what's going to cause potentially immediate
cessation of the person's illegal and hostile activities that are
endangering innocent bystanderds and other folks. Yeah, you shoot someone
in the heart. Okay, Now we're talking a variable time frame.
They're on a timer maybe minutes before a person reduces

(01:05:05):
their blood pressure to point that they go into hype
of limic shock and fall unconscious and unable to continue
to be violent. So where we're going to shoot if
we want immediate incampenitation is the upper spinal cord and brain.
If we want delayed incapacitation, we're going to shoot center
of mass into the heart and great blood vessels. Well,

(01:05:28):
let's shoot them in the pelvis, Okay. Well, if I
don't have another target. Sure, and the person may die
from sepsis in a few days or weekly. Yeah, but
they're not necessarily going to be incapacitated now with a
rifle if we break ephemeral head. But that's not even
to center of mass. That's more off to a side. Okay, fine, Now,

(01:05:50):
I mean we've all seen deer and other animals that
get shot with a shoulder shot and they immediately fall down. Well,
in that particular case, we're using a rifle round typically,
and we may be creating enough rapid stretch that the
spinal cord is bruised or potentially even broken, and the

(01:06:11):
animal is unable to move anymore and collapses immediately and
then dies from extanginionation. Okay, that's a whole different ballgame, right.
We have a mechanical trauma with the force of the
stretch cavity literally disrupting the spinal column. That's a lot
different than some invisible shock wave going through the animal.

(01:06:35):
That's a totally different Yeah, that's not what we're talking about.
So temporary stretch is a thing. It's where the bullet
goes through. The bullet is crushing tissue directly through the womb.
That's the permanent cavity. Then there's an area of stretch
that expands and then immediately elastically recoils. The better the

(01:06:56):
tissue is at tolerating stretch, the better it is going
to withstand that stretch. Certain tissue doesn't handle stretch well,
particularly things like the brain and the nerves. Other tissue
like your bowel if it's empty, your blood vessels, things
like that, Your bladder if it's empty. You're intestines if

(01:07:19):
it's empty, they can stretch a lot. Think about sausage, right,
think about hagis disgusting, but think about it nonetheless. So
organs that can stretch a lot will tolerate that stretch
to a greater degree than an organ that can't tolerate
that stretch, like your brain. So that is when we're

(01:07:45):
talking stretch. It's really really important that we talk about
what's getting stretched. Yeah, right, and two organs. You might
have an empty bladder and a full bladder. You put
the projectile next to the empty an empty bladder, it's
like an empty balloon. It stretches. It's no problem. You
have a really really full bladder or intestine or stomach, whatever,

(01:08:06):
and you stretch that it postures water balloon. That's full right,
So there's variability in all these things. You might have
a young individual with really good collagen who stretches magically.
You might have an older person whose collagen is weakened
and it doesn't have the same elasticity, and there may

(01:08:26):
be much less tolerant of a state injury. So there's
a lot of physiology and anatomy. And this is what's
wrong with the computer man's simulations is those computer man
simulations don't truly take into account the variability of the
human body. And when the engineers rely on these calculations,

(01:08:48):
that's what leads to a lot of inaccuracy.

Speaker 4 (01:08:53):
So Man, I got a couple of things that as
far as like leading questions things with that doc or
talking about out that have to do with temp cavity,
because it seems like a lot of the bs that
comes out of buy our Magic Bullet has to do
with Look how magic our tim cavity is. One is

(01:09:14):
I was hoping that Doc could talk about people think
that there's magic, like all the five point seven fanboys
think this little bitty bullet breaks two thousand feet per second.
So now it has rifle like effects, And I know
that himself and doctor Factler looked at some of the
historical like the old school bullets five seven seven Snyder

(01:09:39):
and you know, forty five seventies and things like that
versus some of these, you know, like modern things that
are higher velocity five point seven twelve gage slugs. So
my understanding is it's not just the velocity that feeds
into whether a temp cavity is large enough to be
effective and have these sorts of effects that he's talking about,

(01:10:00):
or it's significant to wounding or not. I think a
lot of people don't understand that bullet mass caliber, construction
upset or don't upset, things like that all play into
whether timp cavity is actually an effective thing or not.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Absolutely. I had set Matt a diagram the other day
showing three different projectiles the different velocities, and the one
that made the largest permanent and temporary wound as well
as the most depth is the slowest one below two
thousand feet per second. And that's the way it often is.

(01:10:40):
When you look at the British, example, when they were
out colonizing and raping the world, their five seventy seven
martini Henry soft led bullet was dramatically more destructive than
their new three H three round those and the British
colonial soldiers were quite vociferous and complaining about this. That
led to the development of the bullet at the Dumb

(01:11:05):
Dumb Arsenal in India as well as the Mark seven
with a hollow space underneath the nose of the projectile
to cause rapid upset. Both of those projectiles proved to
be a bit more effective than the round nose three
h three. Neither one was as damaging as the five
seventy seven soft lead projectile, but at least they even

(01:11:27):
the gap compared to the round nose, which just went
in and out was an ice pick, ice pick bandaged boom.
When a bullet goes straight through with no upset at all,
you get a diameter or slightly less than diameter because
with a rounded nose configuration you're actually pushing the tissue
apart a little bit, so your actual hole two tissues

(01:11:48):
actually smaller than the diameter or the shank of the bullet,
because as a bullet go too as there is a
slight bit of stretch coming off the nose, and so
the back of the bullet is not even touching the
tissue as it zooms through. So you might have a
thirty caliber bullet, but you might have a twenty five
caliber hole for a bullet that is smooth and doesn't

(01:12:10):
have a cutting edge, which is why a wadcutter style
design or something with a sharp leading edge leads to
a greater pull.

Speaker 4 (01:12:22):
So the other thing I see in like the backyard ballistics,
when people are shooting maybe homemade ballistic gel or whatever
the material is, then they're going for you know, you
shoot some of these things and they explode dramatically, or
they you know, flop around like I've seen blocks of
ballistic gel flip off the table. That sort of thing

(01:12:43):
is things I've noticed in hunting and on the on
the street as well, and look at shootings. Is tim
cavity can vary dramatically depending on the target. If I
tell people if I've got a let's say I got
a twenty two two fifty loaded with a fifty grain vmax,
I would make a prairie dog explode. I may or

(01:13:06):
may not harvest the deer that I shoot at depending
on how I because I got to be very very
careful in my placement and angle and everything else. And
if I was to do something like shoot a rhinoceros
with it, then I'm almost certainly going to get stomped
to death, just because temp, cavity and that sort of thing.

(01:13:28):
The size of the target, the nature of the target.
There's an it's just not the mass of the bullet,
the velocity of the bullet, all that interaction, but target
size has quite a bit to do with that as well.

Speaker 2 (01:13:39):
Yeah, and when you're shooting gel, you have different size
blocks depending on what projectile you're using. I mean common sense, right,
we have twenty pound blocks, we have forty pound blocks,
sixty eighty, even one hundred pound blocks of gel, depending
on what we're testing. I mean, that's just you have
to encapsulate the entire wound, the permanent cavity, any stretch

(01:14:02):
hell has to be contained in your block to accurately
replicate what's going on. Is it perfect? No, But from
hundreds of shootings that have been analyzed, we know that
the ten percent GEL, when properly fabricated and validated, is
pretty dang close to what we're going to see in
the body with obvious variations. If I'm shooting a more

(01:14:25):
dense structure, it's going to have a little less penetration
than in muscle tissue. If I'm shooting a less dense
structure like lung, it might have a little more penetration. Right.
You have to calculate density, You have to calculate a
variety of things like that, intermediate barriers, et cetera. But
this is all science, it's all able to be done,
and it's quite repeatable, and it correlates very directly with

(01:14:52):
shots in living tissue, both animal and shots on the battlefield,
and in law enforcement a self defense settings. Have that
data when the Joint Service WON Ballistics team or the
CTDSO Tiswig team, or the Joint FBI USMC team or
the CHP team after the late eighties and early nineties

(01:15:14):
when they switched from three fifty seven magnum to forty
Smith and Weston, when San Diego is doing their study,
there's a number of agencies that we're doing fantastic data
collection at that point, and the results were quite clear,
quite repeatable, and we're valid across the country, and so
we know exactly what projectiles are going to do in

(01:15:34):
the body, give or take depending on what they hit.
Awesome stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:15:46):
So let's see here, So Chuck, you've covered some fast
and light for caliber.

Speaker 2 (01:15:52):
You brought that up.

Speaker 1 (01:15:52):
Yeah, and yeah, you guys have mentioned in the past
as well. You've seen them before, and we're going to
see him again at some point. Talked about magic beans,
talked about about wad cutters, talked about fluted solids, talked
about temp cavity. I got one that would be nice

(01:16:13):
to discuss, and we know the answer. But it's one
of these. For some reason, it comes up in discussions
and arguments penetration versus expansion.

Speaker 2 (01:16:24):
Whether they're directly winked.

Speaker 1 (01:16:28):
So a lot of people talk about the absolutely need
to have the most expanding round, but we're not taking consideration. Okay, well,
what about that shot placement and shot placement with necessary penetration.
That's a that's a recipe for success, with the expansion

(01:16:48):
being icing on the cake if you get it.

Speaker 2 (01:16:51):
Yeah. I want penetration first, Yeah, and I want shot
plates then, and I want a person with a reliable
weapon in their hand. I'd rather have the old dude
with an M sixteen A one shooting fifty five grand
and one eight eight three who practices ten thousand rounds
a year versus some dude with the latest whiz bang

(01:17:14):
M four bonded rounds and all the all the whiz
bang gear. Who practices five hundred rounds a year. Yep,
that's gonna hurt feelings. Yeah, well, sorry, I don't be hurt.
You got to hit the target first, right, and then
you have to hit it in an important spot. Yeah.

(01:17:36):
Oh that's another one. Your gun has to go bang
every time. Right. Once you've accomplished those sorts of things,
then we can get into the most more esoteric stuff. Now,
if you're a law enforcement agency, yeah, you should probably
be buying a round that offers robust, reliable expansion through
intermediate barriers. You're using the public's money get something decent,

(01:18:00):
and you owe it to the citizens and the officers.
You know, if you're a little podunk agency, you really
ought to be buying off the same sort of contracts
that ammunition companies have for federal government agencies that have
massive testing programs in place that can check pressure, check reliability, uh,

(01:18:25):
do extensive quality control. You know, there's a few ammunition
vendors out there that have those kind of contracts piggyback
onto those sorts of things because those controls are in place.
If I'm buying from Billy Bob's Bait and Tackle and
hunting shack, and I'm an agency. I'm probably not getting

(01:18:47):
valid pressure testing and quality control checks of the munition
whilebly not getting proper in a ceiling of the case
mouth and the primers. I don't know what I'm getting,
and either do they, And so that's a waste of
the public's money. There's just too many variables in there
to have it in your ammunition. So you're far better

(01:19:10):
off piggybacking on known contracts or looking at a known
contract and adopting it as your own, saying that it
must meet all the following standards, and then a vendor
that's actually building it for the military can hand you
that same data if they're running the AMMO on the
same production line and go, yeah, we just did this
federal contract. We've run it on the same line out

(01:19:31):
of the same batch, and here's yours and here's the
test results. So people like you know, Federal Spear, Black
Hill's Hornity, they can do that usually because they have
those kind of contracts. Other folks maybe not so much.
Now for hunting, go for what your heart desires, but

(01:19:52):
for an agency looking for duty AMMO. Different ballgame. Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:19:57):
Hite even say for personal defense, Well, you.

Speaker 2 (01:20:00):
Pretty much wanted to go bang every time you pulled
the trigger.

Speaker 1 (01:20:03):
Huh. Yeah, yeah, And there's a reason why establish agencies
are going with the ammunition they are hopefully or maybe maybe.

Speaker 4 (01:20:15):
Uh.

Speaker 2 (01:20:15):
Sergeant Smith told Corporal Jones to go find out what's best,
and Corporal Jones looked it up on the internet based
on some stupid YouTube video. Well, we don't know that happens.
It happens too many times. I get calls every week
about stuff like this, And it doesn't matter. You know,
you're gonna buy gold Dot or HST or whatever you know.

(01:20:37):
But more is important is the principles behind it. The
actual brand name is not as important as it does
this much penetration. It is barrier blind, it offers reliable
performance in your duty weapons. It's and you can get
it in a reasonable quantity. Yeah, and I tell most

(01:21:01):
agencies to try to have two separate vendors.

Speaker 1 (01:21:03):
I's going to bring that up.

Speaker 2 (01:21:05):
Two separate vendors, so you have two loads that are
very similar from two separate vendors. By the way, Spear
and Federal are the same vendor, right, two vendors horanity
and spear. Yeah, right, something like that. Black Hills and

(01:21:25):
Federal two separate vendors, and that way your contract. If
one company can't get it for you, you try to
get it from the other.

Speaker 1 (01:21:33):
And we experienced that just not too long ago all
the time.

Speaker 2 (01:21:37):
Yeah, yeah, so you know, that's that's what I would recommend.
And in this day and age, most municipal agencies in
the in the United States should be running a nine
milimeter duty handgun. Yeah, it just makes sense if you're
predominantly shooting into vehicles. I could argue that forty has

(01:22:01):
some validity still, and if I was an Alaska agency, maybe,
but most municipally agencies in lower forty eight. Nine millimeter
works for small statute officers, has an adequate capacity, easy
to train, and performance is reasonable to stay and age.
So you just go with that. Yeah, and then you

(01:22:25):
should be running some sort of long gun, preferably if
it's a five five six something with a suppressor on
it in that twelve to sixteen inch range. I still
think shotguns have a place, but they require training. A

(01:22:46):
shotgun with a slug is pretty impressive when it comes
to defeating things like autoglass and people and large animals. Yes,
So I don't have a problem with shotguns still being is,
but they require more training than an AR type platform. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:23:04):
Well, going through a rob hot class, so I and
this was twenty seventeen, I determined shotguns my weakness. I
need to take a shotgun class. So I took Robot
Shotgun class. Matt and Rob are awesome. Love the class.

Speaker 2 (01:23:18):
I want to go again.

Speaker 1 (01:23:20):
It made me absolutely love thirteen oh one's twelve gage.
Great gun, but the level of it's not even complexity,
but it was. It took more reps and everything for
me to do versus walk on with pat Rogers and
Carbon class.

Speaker 2 (01:23:35):
That's easy. That's the easy button easy and AR fifteen
is the easiest weapon there is to utilize. Yeah, for
every veteran in America using an AR fifteen, you've had
more repetitions with it, more training with it, and everything.
That is like the brown best of the modern age, right, Yeah,

(01:23:57):
that is the weapon that if you wor veteran, if
you're a high powered target shooter, that's the webon you
ought to be using. Yeah, and if you're going to
use a handgun, then most people are going to be
better served with a nine millimeter for defensive purposes, just
like a duty weapon.

Speaker 1 (01:24:16):
Yeah, I need to hold on for just one second here, sure, Fred,
do you have anything so far?

Speaker 5 (01:24:25):
Well, I'm just going to address some of the information flow.
That's something that I can actually speak to. Yes, you know,
all that data after nine to eleven became restricted because
we found you know, complete weapons repair and night vision

(01:24:49):
repair shops that the Taliban had in.

Speaker 2 (01:24:54):
Afghanistan in the caves, all full of our manuals.

Speaker 6 (01:24:59):
They were using our doctrine and everything, and so yeah,
the the contraction, you know, from the shock of discovering
that led to so much being restricted.

Speaker 3 (01:25:13):
And now even you know.

Speaker 2 (01:25:15):
We were just informed this week, you know, just you know, information.

Speaker 7 (01:25:21):
If you receive a magazine at your house and you
bring it to work and you leave it unsecured on
your desk, that is a privacy breach. Cool according to
d D because it's got your home address on it.
So yeah, there there are some serious challenges to disseminating

(01:25:45):
information that that can with the irony of me, the
former information warfare disseminator saying all of this, but but yeah,
we're we've probably shot ourselves in the foot being a
little over restrictive.

Speaker 2 (01:26:04):
So the other thing I've seen happen is when Letterman
shut down, even the doctor Fackler told the DoD hierarchy
the people that he trained, the engineers took over again,
and there was very little cross pollination between the medical
community eighteen d's with tons of experience, et cetera, and

(01:26:29):
trauma surgeons and the engineers. And so we have all
of these programs pushing forward through the late nineties and
into the two thousands that are run by engineers who
have no understanding of the anatomy and physiology. And that
is an ongoing problem today. And I would sit on
the Joint Service WIN Ballistics team and there would be

(01:26:49):
a few medical people there, but not a lot likewise
in some of the other organizations, And I think that
leads us to a lot of issues. When the Joint
Service WIN BLOW sixteen completed their multi year study, there
was a three hundred and thirty one page report that

(01:27:10):
we completed. When it was released to the public, so
to speak, even within the Pentagon, it shrunked down to
in the neighborhood of thirty somewhid pages. What happened to
the other three hundred pages. Fortunately I still have a
copy of that long draft, as I do with many

(01:27:34):
of the other papers that are out there, and it
is disappointing at best to see what the leadership was
denied seeing by mid level managers at places like Benning
and Picatinny and Aberdeen, and the data was filtered so

(01:27:57):
much that it became meaningless. I will tell you that
at Letterman we used to have tons of visitors. We
had folks from the FBI, CHP, many municipal law enforcement agencies,
with people from NCIS, people from DCIS, people from lots
of people from Crane. The one who never came to

(01:28:17):
the Letterman Army Institute of Research YouTubers, Oh well that
didn't exist. Then this is the Lady nineties who never came.
Were people were engineers from Aberdeening and Picatinny. Not Once
the Crane folks were there, they were great, but not
the army folks. You know, there's a reason why the

(01:28:39):
FBI BRF does all of the DoD critical wumballistics analysis
and not some other organizations, because the folks they work
and do those tests for have realized who does the
testing best. I remember sitting at in Cornado one time,
we were probably two thousand and three or four something

(01:29:04):
like that maybe, and we were testing a new new
round and it showed great promise and one of the
test organizations wanted, you know, a couple of years and
several million dollars to do the testing in Buford Boonstead
up and said, we can do that next week for

(01:29:24):
you for free. Right there. That start contrast, We'll get
it done in a week for free versus we need
millions of dollars in several years. And the best part
was Buford did it the next week for free. That
shows you how broken down some of the big military
testing was. And I think that that underscored for some

(01:29:47):
of the special mission units were there who they needed
to go to for valid data.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a third time he's been
mentioned today.

Speaker 2 (01:29:56):
Yeah, because Beeford is probably the best in the business
at this as is his follow on at the fbibrf Right.
Beeford was there for a what almost thirty years, so
slid dude, I would do a test on the west coast.
Beefford at the time was in Virginia and he would
do a test and we would go like, hey, this
is what I got he'd go, oh, this is what
I got. And it was like a nice cross check

(01:30:18):
because we were doing two institutions, separate, bated by the
entire country, serving different masters, so to speak, and we
would get the same results within reason. Yeah, that's awesome.
It was like dang, almost like there's science here, that's right. Yeah.
And so you know, he was a great colleague to
work with, and he came into these military meetings as

(01:30:42):
a because Beufford was never in the military, he came
into it bringing a wealth of knowledge from the law
enforcement side, and he would look at problems with a
different eye. And so that is pretty dang amazing that
he is so respected in the military despite every having
served in it. And I have great respect for.

Speaker 1 (01:31:06):
Him messaging him right now saying that we're saying nice
things about him on a podcast, of.

Speaker 2 (01:31:12):
Course, and Scott Patterson has merely taken that over and
kept that tradition going on. And now that the BRF
is moved to Huntsville, they have more room, more space,
and they're continuing to do just amazing work. Again, if
you're a law enforcement agency or a military unit and
you have not availed yourself with the FBI, BRF information.

(01:31:34):
You are stupid and you are in your duty.

Speaker 1 (01:31:38):
It's silly how people say, well, it's the FBI.

Speaker 2 (01:31:40):
They lie about everything the FBI. BRF does not. They
are the pinnacle organization for win ballistics research in the nation,
if not the world. As I said earlier period, been
there many times. Yeah, and looking at different data for folks.

(01:32:02):
And you can always come back to their data again,
I know because it matches my data. Yeah, amazing.

Speaker 1 (01:32:11):
So how often do things get tested? How do they
determine okay, we need to test out this specific round.

Speaker 2 (01:32:18):
Is it things that.

Speaker 1 (01:32:19):
Come to market or something that might show some kind
of problems.

Speaker 2 (01:32:22):
They're testing anything that is a duty load a lot, right,
and there's a contract being let out. They test all
the different gotchas, They test any load that they are
asked to test by other organizations gotcha and obviously any

(01:32:46):
rounds that might be of interest that might oppose a
threat to their agents or the agent that makes sense
that they support. So it could be another organization unit
or agency asking them. It could be a something new
technology they are looking at. It can be something that's
coming up on a contract. Yeah, and it can be
a lot verification of contracts that have already been let out.

(01:33:08):
Makes sense, Yeah, pretty straightforward. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:33:11):
Well, it's interesting hearing some people negatively talk about the
testing that's going on and they say, well, they're stuck
in Well they use factor for the example. Well they're
stuck in his old stuff. Technology has changed, it's so
much better. Physics hasn't changed.

Speaker 2 (01:33:25):
Changed, and it is so much better. Do they think
all of these organizations and groups are standing still?

Speaker 1 (01:33:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:33:34):
So what do they think we're doing?

Speaker 4 (01:33:36):
Yeah to two things that haven't changed are physics and
human anatomy.

Speaker 2 (01:33:45):
Correct or human physiology for that matter.

Speaker 3 (01:33:48):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:33:49):
Yeah, I talk to people all the time. They'll like, well,
blah blah blah blah blahm Like, you know, human human
physiology hasn't changed in I don't know, three hundred and
fifty thousand years, and physics has never changed. You can't
beat physics. A lot of people think they can, but yeah, none, none.

Speaker 2 (01:34:10):
Of this has changed.

Speaker 1 (01:34:11):
So magic bullets.

Speaker 3 (01:34:13):
Yeah, that'sesting what they're passing through.

Speaker 2 (01:34:22):
It is sad that everybody wants to throw away all
of that hard won knowledge before them. If you do
not know your history, you are doomed to repeat it.
How many times? Do we have to hear that?

Speaker 1 (01:34:42):
Yeah, and how it applies everywhere.

Speaker 2 (01:34:45):
Every single aspect, every single aspect of life. I mean,
we're all sitting around watching the fall of Afghanistan in
those last few days, looking and remembering the fall of Saigon,
and you're going, what the heck are we repeating this for?

(01:35:09):
Because we knew how not to repeat it, and you
have to get it anyway. Yeah, because we didn't learn
from our history. The same thing with shrinking military budgets,
the same thing with bloated defense contractors, the same thing
with tons of defense acquisition stuff. And you just look
at that. We keep doing the same stuff over and

(01:35:30):
over and over, and it's so frustrating. I remember sending
a letter out in a circle two thousand and three
to a government organization that had this great new wonder weapon,
and I said, well, you can do the following you
things blah blah blah, and you're going to have a
success within the next few years and get it in
people's hands and feel it, or you can, you know,
let your program get bloated and do repeated rounds of

(01:35:55):
testing and modification and completely useless product development, so to speak,
and you're going to get something that's never going to
be fielded and it never get fielded, or the XM
twenty five saga, or even the M seventeen handgun drama.
I mean like they didn't even do the final testing

(01:36:15):
in that they abrogated the final testing. And you look
at that and you go wow, and then we wonder
why the things had problems repeatedly. Yeah, and the fact
that you would you would order a handgun and have
the manufacture of the handgun also picked the ammunition. So

(01:36:40):
in the M seventeen testing, there was one ammo that
was absolutely spectacular, but that handgun did not win the trial,
even though I should have, it didn't, and that ammo
as the result, was never fielded because they were buying
a package. So we got the M seventeen with nineteen
nineties technology ammunition instead of this other handgun that was

(01:37:02):
equal or actually probably better with amazing ammunition. And then
that ammunition, all the leftover ammunition was offered to the
Marine Corps. There were hundreds of thousands of rounds left,
and the Marine Corps tested and they went Holy cow.
I think Salfinelli said it was the best ammo he
had ever tested for a military handgun, and then the
big Army came down and sat on the Marine Corps

(01:37:24):
leadership and basically told him do not do anything with this,
and so it went away, and we have that over
and over and over again. We had the bonded version
of SOST the totem that we talked about at an

(01:37:46):
MBIA meeting, and nobody bothered to ask Hayes Parks if
he would rule positively on it, and so nobody asked that.
We never got that AMMO, and Hayes said repeatedly, yeah,
you just ask, I'll say yes. So we could have
had bonded CELST, which would have been the best combat

(01:38:06):
rifle round in five, five, six and then three away
ever fielded, but nobody asked, so we never got it.
Somebody just had to ask Chuck Marsha and the guys
that craned and never got it. Nobody asked. Yeah, it
was crazy, so much stuff like that. So yeah, it's

(01:38:33):
sad watching all this stuff. It's sad. I mean, we're
going to have this new six ' eight army rifle. Well,
we've been telling the Army for what since about eighteen
ninety eight that something in the sixty five to seven
milimeter range is the best caliber. And we knew about
it for the two seventy six infield, the two seventy
Peterson you know on and on the seven mile British

(01:38:56):
bulletpop after the war World War two. We've known about
this for years. And instead of putting it in something
like a really cool like the two sixty four USA,
the two seventy seven USA that AMU came up with,
we're getting it in a neck down three o eight cartridge. Basically,
we're getting a three o eight with a six to
eight bullet, Like, what's the point. It's stupid. And of

(01:39:21):
course the practice ammo now is not going to be
at the same velocity as the combat ammo. Oh, that's
going to be great to practice with. So there's just
so many issues.

Speaker 1 (01:39:29):
Yeah, not learning from the Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:39:33):
Whereas that FN six ' five gun is actually a
much better rifle, much better system that some of our
allies are pushing, but it's going to get steamrolled if
we're not careful. It's super super unfortunate that it's going
this way. Hmm.

Speaker 1 (01:39:57):
Well, and as Chuck's brought up as a matter of
and we've we've discussed here tonight, those current magic bean bullets.
It's we're having repeats the light and fast for caliber.

Speaker 2 (01:40:12):
Hete tell you in there out there. Yeah, everything just
goes in cycles. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:40:18):
So maybe in ten more, ten, twenty more years we'll
see the new generation of the same thing, just new packaging.

Speaker 2 (01:40:24):
Pretty much, it'll be somebody's new great idea. Everybody gets
that good fairy idea, and some administer goes.

Speaker 1 (01:40:31):
Oh, until we get the energy weapons.

Speaker 2 (01:40:34):
Well, you will see, right, we'll see thee exactly. Yeah,
mind chuck, you have I see it. I can see.
There's a comment brewing.

Speaker 4 (01:40:48):
There's all kinds of stuff. You know that those are
dogs brought up rabbit holes on the huge problems historically
since the eighteen hundreds at minimum, with army small arms
acquisition that you know, why did we have troops in

(01:41:09):
the Spanish American War carrying black powder rifles, single shot
rifles when the rest of the world had gone to
clip fed mausers. You know, why was that still a thing?
Because our army small arms acquisition is just it's been
a shit show for well more than one hundred years,

(01:41:29):
probably more than two hundred years at this point. But
those are rabbit holes we went down for a very
long time. One thing I thought I'd asked the doctor
to speak to is when we're looking at why we're
looking at what good wound ballistics or what good performance
out of a caliber is, how did the FBI settle

(01:41:53):
on that twelve to eighteen inch penetration range? You know something,
you know, when you brought up Matt, people talking about
bullets that expand and people are you get these huge
expansion bullets and they're very impressed with that. I pointed
out at the FBI Miami gunfight as an example, if
the nine millimeters armed agents had been carrying.

Speaker 2 (01:42:14):
NATO ball that day, that had all been better off.

Speaker 4 (01:42:17):
You know, the famous shot that the silver tip shot
that failed to penetrate in Michael Platt probably would have
went all the way through his chest cavity sideways, hit
both lungs and his heart. He would have been, you know,
deceased very very quickly, as opposed to four minutes later
after shooting seven agents. So I was hoping Doc could

(01:42:40):
speak to you know that that twelve to eighteen inches
not being just some criteria that somebody pulled out of
their butt.

Speaker 2 (01:42:48):
No, no, it was it was based on anatomy, based
on getting a shot into the center of mass from
any angle of the body. Let's face it, most of
the time we're not shooting at people standing in anatomic position, right.
People will be shooting back at you. They might be
human like this, and you're putting the bullet down through

(01:43:09):
an arm and into the chest cavity across the body.
You might have noticed that folks now oftentimes eat a
lot of fast food and seems somewhat larger than they
used to be. So I've got a three hundred pound
dude shooting at me like this, and I've got to
put rounds down his arm to get into his chest cavity.
Is a six inch penetration going to be adequate. No,

(01:43:32):
I need more closer to eighteen inches to make that distance.
So that twelve to eighteen inch is pretty much the
rains that you need to get into where the pump
is from any angle. Now, if we're doing pure shots
through the ice socket or into the year, different ballgame,

(01:43:53):
but most of the time you don't get that shot,
so that distance is extremely critical. The next thing is
the ability to put the rounds into a postcard sized
target postcard meaning over the eyes or turn the postcard
this way over the heart and great vessels. Take your

(01:44:17):
average law enforcement officer, or your average CCW holder, or
even your average military person who's not in a special
mission unit. Put a three x five card up on
a target. Have them draw and see if they can
put five rounds into that at ten fifteen yards. See
if they can put five rounds into it at five

(01:44:38):
yards while they're running sideways to get away from the target.
See if they can draw one handed while holding a
shopping bag, a child, a suitcase and do the same
thing from seven yards. I mean, that's what we're talking
about here, right, That's what we're talking about. So I

(01:45:01):
think the best target in the world is a three
by five card.

Speaker 1 (01:45:07):
Recently, playing cards have taken over. There's a oh it's
a fun drill though, five yards five shots. Oh it is.

Speaker 2 (01:45:17):
It is from a pure physiologic and anatomical standpoint, a
three by five card is the optimal target, either horizontal
for the ice sockets and vertically for the heart. Yeah.
I love the big law enforcement targets where you're putting
target rounds over into the lung where there's nothing there
and you're still passing the course. Hm hm hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:45:43):
Yeah, m hm, So I thought I had mine handy.
But the first exposure I had to that card drill,
which was a modified five by five by five that
Gela May Hayes had popularized, which is a heck of
a good drill. But I had my card that Tom
Gibbons had us doing that, so it's five yards on

(01:46:04):
the playing card at five seconds. But what he talked
about was the history of this and the old school gunfighters,
wile Bill Hiccock, things like that, you know, guys like that.
And what he found was the Old West playing cards
were larger than modern playing cards. So I thought I

(01:46:25):
had one sitting right here and I don't know where
it went, but I have I have my signed because
I passed the drill. Tom signs it and puts a
date on there that you you know, you accomplish that one,
and it was. He had some of those cards made
to the historically accurate size from the eighteen hundreds and

(01:46:45):
they're very close to a three by five card. So
I just, you know, some historical nerdery that is, I
don't know, weirdly pertinent to nowadays.

Speaker 2 (01:46:59):
It's cool and Gary Chad Mercer says, Hi, Hey, there
you go. How do you just sent a message? Very
kind of Yeah, So three by five cards are the
way to go. It's really cheap training and it works great.
In fact, you've taken eight and a half by eleven

(01:47:19):
piece of paper, throwing the three five, turn your three
by five cards your primary target. The eight and a
half by eleven is the rest of the target, and
then you're done. And you can also pull it the
eight and a half by eleven and a half and
then put that for the head. It's pretty simple. Yeah,
mostly too large a target zone.

Speaker 1 (01:47:42):
Well, what's great about the specific conversation is, as someone
who had limited budget for an agency, I had to
figure out, Okay, what's going to be a what's going
to be a good Uh? It's as opposed to spending
a lot of money on specialized targets.

Speaker 2 (01:47:56):
I went and bought three by five cards exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:47:58):
For that use and staple them on a silhouette and Okay,
you're going to hit here and you're going to shoot here.

Speaker 2 (01:48:04):
I just go to the secretaries, I steal a rim
of eight and a half by eleven and three by
five cards from Staples. I go up. You put the
eight and a half by eleven you put the one
card vertical and one horizontal, a little boom hop on bottom,
and you get like five points for hitting each of
the cards. And you get one point if you hit
the eight and a half by eleven, and if you miss,
you get zero or minus whatever. And that's your target. Yeah.

(01:48:26):
And the other thing is people need to shoot from
close all the way up to twenty five or more. Yeah,
there's been too many instances like in a shopping court
or down a hospital court or where your shots are
more you know, twenty five to fifty yards, and so
you need to be able to make those shots too,
particular if you're law enforcement.

Speaker 1 (01:48:45):
And that's been a really fun part of adopting red
dots for US as an agency is to push people
up further back. And they've been loving it, absolutely, shooting
at a level they haven't been able to do with
their irons and now they're being able to they're able
to do this and talk about a confidence and a
confidence booster, but also it encourages them to shoot more

(01:49:09):
because they got such positive results.

Speaker 2 (01:49:11):
And I think people need to listen to Bulky and
folks that are talking about this is that you need
to be cautious where those rounds go and these higher
round burn them down kind of things is probably realistic
in today's law enforcement mill you and you need to
know where each round goes. And I'm not talking about

(01:49:32):
taking a shot or two shots and lower your weapon.
I'm talking about be deliberate where their shots are going
to go. And red dots help that absolutely. And you
don't have to be front site focused. You're looking at
the whole target as you lay around down. Lots of
options there. And I think we are in a very

(01:49:58):
strange era in law enforcement and self defense in this nation.
And it can peter either way, but it's definitely a
strange time. Oh, we're ignoring past lessons, we're ignoring physiologic
and atomic truths, and we're trying our groups of the
population and administrations that we're trying to drive through things

(01:50:21):
that don't make scientific sense.

Speaker 1 (01:50:26):
Absolutely and even worse just in gen pop Internet stuff
mm hmm.

Speaker 2 (01:50:35):
I mean, the Internet is a pox on humanity, truly
bad in terms of the availability of garbage that one
has to purse through to get down to the nuggets
of gold.

Speaker 1 (01:50:48):
If you can find them, if you know how to
identify them.

Speaker 2 (01:50:51):
Yep, yep, it's, uh, you know, pretty dang sad. But
there's six thousand videos on how to manscape yourself, yes,
and like, what the heck guy is going to do
that when you don't even have basics in your life
on how to do simple skills that are necessary for
your job. But man, your hair is going to be perfect.

Speaker 1 (01:51:17):
Chuck, do you have any comments about the perfect hair?

Speaker 4 (01:51:21):
Mine's pretty good.

Speaker 2 (01:51:22):
That is perfect. I didn't have to worry about it.
It's awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:51:28):
So, uh, you guys hinted earlier about ammunition scandals and oh, yeahthing,
is that something you guys want to get into, because
I think I know what you guys were talking about
when you talked about that one.

Speaker 2 (01:51:47):
Oh, there's a whole bunch of things out there. I
think there's one that Fred was involved in. There's specifically
evolved specifically that was the La MOUs scandal and not that.

Speaker 1 (01:51:56):
Yeah, not that he was the source of the scandal, no, no, no,
he was.

Speaker 2 (01:52:00):
He was the the person who broke an open and
allowed the truth to come out, one of the people
before everyone else did.

Speaker 3 (01:52:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:52:13):
So you know, the the people from La Moss, Uh,
they I think it started on light fighter board that
you know, they wanted people to uh, you know, uh
use their AMMO and report back. And I was working
in Columbia then and making coffee.

Speaker 1 (01:52:37):
What's that making coffee?

Speaker 8 (01:52:38):
Yes, yes, yes, I was, you know, I was caressing
the beans to their perfect.

Speaker 3 (01:52:48):
And so I got some of that.

Speaker 8 (01:52:49):
AMMO and uh, I shot a little bit of it,
and I really didn't like the way that it did
things to my gun.

Speaker 3 (01:52:58):
But uh and then you know, there.

Speaker 8 (01:53:00):
Was all kinds of back and forth on the board,
and Gary you know, said that he'd really like to
test some of it. So I just boxed it all
up and sent it to him, and the world rather
quickly was able to find out just how much snake
oil this was.

Speaker 3 (01:53:22):
That's my memory of it.

Speaker 1 (01:53:25):
Doctors sticking to it.

Speaker 3 (01:53:26):
Yeah, you can expand on it.

Speaker 1 (01:53:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:53:29):
The sad part was there were a number of people
from high end military units that got duped by this,
and many of them staked the reputation in the fact
that this was this wonder bullet that was temperature sensing
and was made out of quote blended metals, et cetera.

(01:53:50):
But when we put it under a sem and we
did some spectromity and things on it, it was basically
conventional bullets. When they in fact said it was led free,
it was not, and it turned out to be conventional
hunting bullets that had been disguised from manufacturers like Hornerty
and Sarah, et cetera. And we put that information out

(01:54:14):
there on the Internet, and it seemed to touch off
a whale of anguish from many people who wanted to
believe there was magic and wanted to believe the advertising.
Several years later, the DOOD finally released their findings and
got exact same test results that we had done on

(01:54:36):
the ammunition. Fred and a couple other people donated to us,
and they sent out a paper and then they disbarred
the owners of Lamas from ever working with the federal
government again. But it was amazing how easily duped these
supposed quiet professionals were when in fact they were going

(01:55:01):
on advertising gimmicks. This was extremely overpressure, conventional honey ammunition
that was not law of land warfare legal and was
not safe to shoot in a weapon because the pressure
over pressure, and it certainly was not lead free. It
was certainly not blended metal, which actually has a definition,

(01:55:22):
and there are blended metal weapon or projectiles out there
the Powell River AMMA was blended metal and it worked great.
It was amazing, But this was not and it just
led to so much drama and strife and threats and
things and people the knew better should have been more
skeptical and weren't.

Speaker 4 (01:55:46):
The uh the handgun ammunition that I had got a
hold of and tested, and I only got I only
messed with the handgun ammo on. This was basically some
of these homemade aid conventional jacketed soft point, but there
was like a lead ball in the nose, and then

(01:56:07):
there was a plastic ball hidden inside the jacket underneath
the lead ball. So what they was they added plastic
to the core of the bullet to lighten up the
bullet for the size of it, so that they could
push it with more velocity because obviously it's a lighter bullet.
So they took kind of a homemade, half assed, conventional

(01:56:32):
just soft point bullet and then claimed it was this
magical blended metal construction and because of these unique attributes,
they could, you know, do all of this magic stuff.
But of course I can't pressure test, but my you know,
I was getting pressure signs like flattened primers and things

(01:56:53):
like that out of the the ammunition that I did shoot,
and then shooting some into a factler box, a water
box and recovering them when they did open up. You
had a lead basically look like I don't know, a
double or triplet buck shotgun pellet that was flattened out,

(01:57:13):
and a jacket that was shredded, and then this plastic
ball that was reminiscent of the old corbon power ball,
except the instead of the plastic in the nose, it
was flipped. It was lead in the nose and the
plastic was in the base.

Speaker 2 (01:57:30):
Exactly. It's exactly what the hang ggun rounds were. Yep.
And it wasn't magic, nope. And it was not free,
and it wasn't blended metal, and it wasn't anything.

Speaker 8 (01:57:43):
It was beside bullets that could sense temperature differences.

Speaker 2 (01:57:50):
And this stuff would disintegrate on intermediate barriers because it
was like fragile, high speed vermitt rounds essentially. I mean,
it was just appalling, and yet so many people got
duped by this, and yes, on a frontal shot, it
was pretty devastating someone because it was conventional hunting ammo
designed for vermits. So you shot someone in a in

(01:58:12):
a frontal position.

Speaker 3 (01:58:13):
Yeah, it was.

Speaker 2 (01:58:13):
It was pretty destructive. But if something got in the way,
an intermediate barrier or whatever and the top of structure,
yeah yeah, not work. Hm. And that just one of
many AMMO dramas over the years.

Speaker 1 (01:58:27):
Yeah and yeah, as we've said already, and there are
still some that are current at newer and people are
falling for.

Speaker 2 (01:58:35):
It yep, constantly. It's like, wake up, folks, read your history.

Speaker 1 (01:58:42):
Yeah yeah, but again that takes effort. Do you guys
want to delve a bit into the Magic three fifty seven?
I think we covered for the most part.

Speaker 2 (01:58:57):
It ain't magic. It's simply a projectile going in the
mid fourteen fifteen hundred feet per second as a duty round.
It has a lot of recoil, a lot of flash
and blast it with the right bullet can penetrate adequately.
I mean, there's nothing wrong with it if you're using

(01:59:18):
a well designed bullet, like something in the one forty
eight or one fifty grand range, the one twenty five
and the one tens where just simply two light would
fall apart with the construction that was being used in
the seventies and eighties. Obviously, once semi auto transition happened.
There was no more work being done on good three
fifty seven duty loads. Now, if you have a lever

(01:59:39):
action carbing, yeah, I wouldn't hesitate to use a lever
action three fifty seven on deer or hogs or whatever
or people. Yeah, whatever, nothing wrong with right duty load.
It ain't viable anymore.

Speaker 3 (01:59:54):
So.

Speaker 1 (01:59:55):
One of the things that I brought up, and really
I stirred up a hornet's nest about it, was the
fact that, you know, three fifty seven, it's comparing that
to nine. You might be looking at some more penetration,
but potential wounding. It's poking all kind of like what
we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (02:00:14):
More you can get touch more stretch potentially, but not
enough to create serious wounds. With a heavy right bullets
you can get more penetration, so it's more appropriate for
hunting potentially, but probably not worth the reduced magazine capacity,
the slower shot to shot, et cetera. Yeah, I'm in

(02:00:37):
a three fifty seven out of a nice you know,
six eighty six or riugor or something that's going to
work fine for people. Well, a glock nineteen I can
carry three times ammunition capacity and a weapon that's lighter weight, you.

Speaker 1 (02:00:50):
Can shoot faster most likely, well the common shooter can
shoot faster.

Speaker 2 (02:00:53):
So I don't know. I just don't see it as viable.
I'd rather have a thirty eight Special is lightweight, easier
to control, and it's going to give me the same
penetration depth, maybe not the stretch, maybe not that flash
bang effect, but it's going to be easier on my body.
And as the older I get and the more damage
I have to my hands, the more I appreciate a
lower recoiling weapon because forty four mag and three fifty

(02:01:18):
seven mag hurts my hands. Now, yeah, that's.

Speaker 1 (02:01:21):
That's been a really cool thing, and that's not a
cool thing, but bulky brings that up a lot. And
I really appreciate that insight because, Okay, when we talk
about performance, what exactly are we talking about and an
handgun rounds? Okay, what's performance? What is it actually doing?
Are you gaining advantage using three point fifty seven on

(02:01:42):
just say, let's just say a person they're not behind anything,
just self defense. That versus a nine millimeter HSD one
twenty four plus B. Yeah, you're looking at fairly similar.
So what's the advantage Okay, you might like you might
personally prefer three fifty seven. Nothing wrong with that, nothing

(02:02:04):
wrong with that at all, but it's just not the
best for everyone. Another fun topic that's been discussed at nauseum.
Three point fifty seven from a snubby Why yeah that hurts.

Speaker 2 (02:02:19):
Yeah, you get the flashbang effect, but in terms of
penetration and tissue dam it's about the same as the
thirty eighth special. Yeah. Yeah, So there's a lot of
wasted potential there with all that unburned powder going down.
Now you're lighting your target on fire. I mean, you
know there's that interest. But looks great on YouTube. Yeah,
I'm sure it does. You know a lot of things

(02:02:40):
look great on YouTube. And then you look at that
and I'm going, what the heck are you doing well?

Speaker 1 (02:02:45):
And then also what you were saying at the beginning
talking about looking at these older three fifty seven rounds
without the flash suppressant and terminally, eh, they weren't that hot,
but they some of them did create a psychological effect.

Speaker 9 (02:03:05):
Absolutely, just like you just never know what's going to
happen you're shooting at. Yeah, and it's almost that sad
Cory Larry, that the bad guy is a bullet sponge
and soaks up fifteen rounds and the good guy gets
one hit from a twenty two or twenty five and
goes down. I mean why, but you know we get

(02:03:27):
people walking into the emergency room all the time, Yeah,
with multiple hits on him, and the good guy takes
the one hit under their body armor and is down.

Speaker 2 (02:03:36):
Yep, And it's just what the heck?

Speaker 1 (02:03:39):
Yeah. I remember in the town that I grew up,
a reserve officer was killed due to that. And yeah,
he took one i think just under the in the
armpit and killed him and bad guy got to survive.

Speaker 2 (02:03:52):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (02:03:54):
A question came up, Chuck c Asks, can you settle
an argument for me?

Speaker 2 (02:04:00):
Please?

Speaker 1 (02:04:01):
Was there an FBI five five six load using trophy
bonded bear clause and low flash powder for SBRs up
to fourteen to five?

Speaker 2 (02:04:11):
Yeah, they were pretty much the entire time, FBI was
using five five six trophy bonded bar claw that was
what they were using. Yeah, they had a nice five
five to six version of it that was really optimized
for their duty weapons. And it's a great load, a
little more expensive than a gold dot for example. So

(02:04:33):
like in California. I think you could buy two rounds
of gold Dot at about the one cost of trophy
bonded bar claw the state contract. So most agencies I
simply recommended they wanted the gold Dot because they can
get twice as much AMMO for the same cost at
that time. Interesting.

Speaker 1 (02:04:47):
So with that in mind, quickly, if you're open to
it for nine millimeter defensive and gun ammunition, what are
your what would be your recommendations?

Speaker 2 (02:05:02):
Anything that meets the eight points of light, that penetrates
twelve to eighteen inches, that has a robust expansion against
heavy clothing and intermediate barriers, and is made by a
reputable vendor who meets all of the standard quality control
checks for pressure and water resistance, et cetera. Again, the

(02:05:28):
individual brands don't matter so much. Matters more the principles
because the names are going to change. Different companies are
going to come and go. There was a time Winchester
made some of the best law enforcement ammunition in the nation.
Not so much. Likewise, Remington made good stuff at one point,
not so much.

Speaker 1 (02:05:46):
Right, has Ranger gone down? Ranger Ranger tea? Is that
still anything viable?

Speaker 2 (02:05:53):
Winchesters, that's some huge quality control issues over the left,
Tad Chuck Haggard, you've seen that.

Speaker 4 (02:05:59):
Yeah, I've personally seen that a network with people who
have who have noticed some of that. I have noted.
One of one of the issues they've had with their
the Ranger T bullets is they let the tooling get dull,
so the skives and the bullets aren't cut correctly. I know,

(02:06:19):
I know dog doesn't like clear jail. But we were
we were shooting some of it, and a buddy wanted
to see what his one twenty seven green plus P
plus load would do. So I'm like, yeah, okay, well,
you know, put one in the block and a bare
block of gelatine. The bullet failed to expand went all

(02:06:39):
the way through. So I would submit to you that
if your bullet design is problematic, if you're push if
you're pushing a bullet at plus P plus velocities out
of a glock thirty four and it doesn't expand, there's
definitely something wrong with the bullet.

Speaker 2 (02:06:55):
I have.

Speaker 4 (02:06:56):
I heard reports of the one seven grain Ranger T
and other bullets failing to expand. I know they had
a problem a big recall when they had one forty
seven ranger bonded was the FBI duty load, and they
sent a bunch of amo to the FBI that the
casings didn't have the flash holes cut, so the primer

(02:07:19):
sitting in the pocket, but there's no hole to go
through to the gunpowder. So when you cap off the primer,
it would pop in the gun. No flash, there's no
flash reaching a gunpowder, and a possibility when you go
to clear that now that you're going to loose primer
rattling around inside your gun. And we know that's not
a good thing. And there's a myriad of other issues,

(02:07:40):
you know, just some of it's anecdotal. A friend of
mine was teaching a shotgun class and I don't know
if you guys have ever done anything like this, but
you ever sliced open a shotgun shell to show your
students the components. This is the buckshot, this is the wad,
this is the gunpowder. He did that with a win
chest or DOUBLET buckload and found a live primer in

(02:08:01):
the gunpowder. Oh wow, loading around loose.

Speaker 1 (02:08:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:08:07):
I can tell you there's a huge issues with twelve
gage shotgun AMMO right now. Because there was an agency
in the Bay Area in California here that was one
of the first to adopt the choke shot spread reducing
and shot spread eliminating wads back in the nineties, and
that stuff was amazing. And then when Federal and Hornity

(02:08:29):
bought out the shot spread reducing patents, they brought out
flight control and versatype, and they did not make it
to the same quality control standards as the original Choke did,
and as a result, those loads have never worked as
well and have had more quality control issues as the

(02:08:50):
original choke. I hear that Chris Billings from Choke is
considering bringing back the original Choke loads using the actually
proper designed shot spread reducing wad and shot with a
precision load, which is the bonded one, and I hope
he does. I hope that somebody like Mosburg or somebody

(02:09:12):
jumps on boards and maybe adopts it as there issued round,
because that would solve a lot of problems. That was
such superlative shotgun demo that it made shotguns extremely viable
for a lot of purposes. That bonded precision load would
hit bowling pins. I watched Louis Arbuck just rail on
bowling pins at one hundred and ten yards with a

(02:09:35):
load that would fly as one piece like a slug,
but when it hit the target, the individual polites were
released from the bonding material. That was a stunning load. Likewise,
what we call flight control and versatite is great, but
the original load was even better and more consistent. Because
with flight control and versus I always get a few

(02:09:56):
flyers here and there, and that's because the WAD is
not the same as the original one. And I think
if we had that option available to us that that
would make a difference. I think.

Speaker 1 (02:10:07):
I think I still have a half box of twenty
five of choke.

Speaker 2 (02:10:13):
It was made in Utah there, That's probably why I
still have it. Yeah, I hope Chris can get that
going again. Mosburg's making some good shotguns right now. Would
be a perfect pairing if they if they teamed up
with him. I hope somebody could maybe make that happen
one day and shotguns still have a place. Well, you

(02:10:37):
know Jeremy Stafford, right, I know Jeremy. I wish Jeremy
would maybe hook up with Chris and talk to him. Yeah,
I could have a perfect pairing right there. Yeah, because
right now you can't recommend a Remy ten age seventy.
The Mosburg guns are working pretty good, and not every
agency is going to go with a thirteen oh one.
So pair up the Mosburg and the choke Amo together

(02:11:03):
and you have a system that would be unbeatable. Yeah. Yeah,
and affordable and affordable and would solve a lot of
problems for those agencies that don't want to have a
scary looking AR, or for public in areas where an
AIR is not viable. And it also gives you the
option for punching big holes through cars, which an AR

(02:11:24):
is not going to do. So yeah, lots of options.

Speaker 1 (02:11:31):
So I asked about handgun defensive duty MO. What about
for five five six? What are the parameters that you
usually have?

Speaker 2 (02:11:39):
Eight points of light? Does it have adequate penetration? Is
it barrier blind? Is it reliable in your weapon system?
Can you afford to get enough to train with it?
So it could either be a bonded or a monolithic load,
doesn't really matter. You have to be more careful when
the barrel link gets down below eleven and a half

(02:11:59):
inches or so on a five five six. But things
like Trophy Bunneberklaud Gold Dot are obviously fantastic, as are
the monolithics like the GMx and the TSX and things
like that, all of them will work. Obviously, with a

(02:12:21):
monolithic load, you can go a little lighter weight than
you can with the bonded load and get the same
penetration depth. But pick something that you know is reliable
and isn't due to use with large agencies that do
quality control checks. Cool. Yeah, cool, And then be careful,
you know, with maintenance on your rifles. We had an

(02:12:42):
agency that was having tons of rounds that wouldn't go off,
and they blame the AMMO and they wanted to blame
this and that that it turned out their weapons the
firing pin was not coming forward enough to actually have
proper ignition of the primers that when you actually measured
the depths on the primers, they weren't deep enough. And
we also had a number of agencies that they would

(02:13:03):
go on a call out, they'd load the ar and
when the call out was over, they would jack the
round out of the weapon and put it back in
the mag All of those primers were cracked because that
initial load, the firing pin will come in and just
lightly tap the primer. Well, that cracked the primers with
repeated use of reloading, and the primers were dead. So

(02:13:25):
when they actually went on a reel and they're on
a call out and they actually had to make a shot,
it goes click instead of bang. Yeah, it's a loudest
noise in the history of mankind when it goes click.
And so yeah, don't reload the fricking round. When it
goes in the chamber, it comes out, and it goes
in the training pop never goes back in your duty
weapon ever, one chambering. I don't care if it's a handgun,

(02:13:49):
it goes in the duty pup. Ain't worth the effort.

Speaker 4 (02:13:58):
When you asked about a handgun, Amo, Matt. That's all
the stuff that Doc's talking about are the reasons why
I tell people, if you are not using gold dot
HST critical duty something like that, you really need to
have some sort of articulable reason why you're not doing that. Yeah, yeah,

(02:14:21):
and he you know, And a valid reason would be
I'm carrying a skin gayframe and so I'm going to
load federal gold medal match wad cutters in it. So, okay,
you got an articulable reason that passes the common sense test.
But I tell people constantly if you're not, you're not,

(02:14:44):
you know, making one of those AMO picks. Probably need
to think about what you're doing. And then what I
don't know if Docs noticed, but he brought up like
Remington shotguns and then Winchester used to be a powerhouse
and a duty ammunition feel and I don't trust them
enough anymore to use them personally because all the quality

(02:15:04):
control issues that I've seen. Whereas Remington was squared away,
then they weren't squared away, then they went bankrupt, and
now the same people that own Spear and Federal are
running Remington. And what I've noticed is their quality control.
Let's say the past two three years, quality control has
really come back. So maybe maybe the AMMO doesn't meet

(02:15:29):
your needs with their bullet styles and things like that,
but as far as the quality control, what I've seen
out of Remington, out of their new stuff is they've
really made a conservative effort to fix past issues with
quality control. So we have to pay attention to these
things historically, because there's some ebb and flow to that.

(02:15:50):
We've talked about that with the Revolver.

Speaker 2 (02:15:53):
When we were talking revolvers.

Speaker 4 (02:15:54):
You know, people want to bag on Taurus, you know,
the Taurus nowadays is not the Taurus of ten years
yars ago. And then even really you know, Winchester is
an example like Smith and Wesson if you go back
to the bangor Punta days, and Smith and Wesson in
the seventies and eighties was putting out garbage guns. You know.
So these are things that you need to continue to

(02:16:17):
pay attention to, particularly if you're running like an agency program,
you know, where you have multi year and you're responsible
for more than just yourself that sort of thing.

Speaker 1 (02:16:30):
Yeah, yeah, and unfortunately people don't seem to recognize or
refuse to recognize it is possible for companies to improve
but also decline but also improve, and so not everything's
always getting worse. It is possible for things to be
turned around.

Speaker 2 (02:16:46):
Just nbautious Reminton's sixty two grand corlocked Ultrabound Ultrabond in
two two three. It was one of the better duty
loads available. So yeah, remed teen can make decent AMMA
when they're called that can drop, like Winchester can. Everybody
can make good AMMO if they choose to, the problem is,
oftentimes the bean counters prevent the production guys from doing

(02:17:09):
it right. Yeah, So anything else because I'm gonna have
to head out soon.

Speaker 1 (02:17:15):
Yeah, I was thinking. I was thinking the same thing,
understanding what your timeline was. We are right there, so
let's get some final thoughts, final plugs, and we'll wrap
this up. Fred, what do you got for us? Final thoughts?

Speaker 10 (02:17:32):
It's been a real pleasure and walk down memory lane
and you know, learn relearning some history that we uh,
we need to do that.

Speaker 2 (02:17:44):
I think we even talked about it, Amen, Chuck.

Speaker 4 (02:17:52):
Uh. I commonly say that you know that Sandyana guy
was pretty smart when he came up with that whole
He who ignores history is doomed to repeat it. And I,
you know, you brought up the historical aspects of this.
People want to have new and better and things like that,
and we're not talking about a better program for Call

(02:18:16):
of Duty eighteen or whatever. What we're talking about is
physics and human physiology, and they haven't These things haven't changed.
Human physiology hadn't changed it like three hundred thousand years,
and physics has always been exactly the same. And you
can't cheat any of this stuff with magic bebes. So

(02:18:38):
that all of the historical aspect and you know, there
were there were people who died to that in incidents
that we have paid attention to that. You know, some
of these lessons are hard won and paid for in blood.
And it does everybody a disservice to ignore the history
of this stuff. And we lose use the history because

(02:19:01):
there's so many people who never dig into it.

Speaker 2 (02:19:06):
You know.

Speaker 4 (02:19:07):
I see that in a law enforcement profession all the time.
I'll ask a young cop what new Hall means to them,
and you know, I get the deer in the headlights. Look,
these are lessons paid for in blood. So yeah, dig
into the digging into the true science and a true
history of this uh, and not not just glossing over
it is important stuff, Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:19:31):
I still see too many people that buy a gun
of the week, every new thing, come up by two
or three of the same handgun chucky one, and use
it as your training gun and master it. Shoot one
hundred rounds a week minimum. Have one that's your carry
gun that's been vetted over a couple hundred to one
thousand rounds. Then have one in a safety buck somewhere

(02:19:52):
in case you're in a shooting and your your duty
gun gets taken into evidence because you ain't going to
see it back for a long time, and then that
gives you another one to keep carrying. So you know,
the old one is none, two is one, and three
is better. Adage works. Stop buying so many flipping guns.
Put your money in AMMA on training. Yeah, why buy

(02:20:16):
two or three of the same damn thing. I don't
care if it's a glock and M and P and bretta,
I don't care what it is. And then no moneymore,
no money more.

Speaker 1 (02:20:24):
After that, I only have three staccatos whatever whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:20:31):
Three of them. And you're a little different because you're
doing this professionally and you're you know, it's a different
I'm talking about some of the carries again, where there
copies whatever. You know, if you're a soldier and you're
carrying an M seventeen, buy an M seventeen for yourself.
Whatever you're going to carry, have a training version of

(02:20:54):
it and a backup version of it, and don't waste
your time anything else. That's what I would do.

Speaker 1 (02:21:03):
So regarding pistol terminal ballistics, to have any final thoughts
that you'd like to share.

Speaker 11 (02:21:09):
Yeah, buy what works. It ain't hard and pistols, pocals, pistols,
poke holes, rifles make bigger.

Speaker 2 (02:21:18):
Holes, right, we're about shotguns. Shotguns make really big holes,
but with less stretch. Yeah, Jim, they crush tissue. A
number one buck shot load crushes a lot of tissue. Right.

Speaker 1 (02:21:35):
Ever, since you told me that I was on the
hunt and I was able to buy a couple cases, Yeah,
that works really good, and the shotgun is more accepted
in the eyes of many community members.

Speaker 2 (02:21:50):
Yeah, so you know, something goes bumping the night. Ain't
nothing wrong with grabbing a twelve gage. I am more
comfortable with an AR fifteen. That is the most comfortable
weapon I am because I've used it for so many years,
so many decades, and I have more training on it
and more repetitions on it. But the reality is, where
I live, I'll probably better off if I grab a

(02:22:11):
shotgun or something like an M one carbing, right, and
then one carbing with soft points is nothing to sneeze at. Yeah,
so something like that. But the key thing is to
be comfortable, to train, and to have enough repetition so

(02:22:33):
when things go very bad, you are not having to fumble.
It's just second nature and you just go to what
you need to do to defend yourself, your family, your neighbor,
whoever it happens to be. And I think people get

(02:22:53):
wrapped up around all of this other stuff too much.
You don't need the latest whiz bang magic. You know,
at yourself a Gen three glock nineteen and buy a
palette worth of Vemo if you can, and then train.
And I don't been going to to the local quarry
and randomly. I mean timer, it's on a timer. You

(02:23:15):
got time and accuracy standards.

Speaker 1 (02:23:17):
Use those three by five cards. Yeah, that works real good.

Speaker 2 (02:23:21):
There's so much stuff out there, you know, Todd Green
was great at putting that kind of stuff out on
pistol form, just amazing. And there's a lot of good
stuff out there. And then the other thing I see
a lot of is there's a difference between military and
law enforcement trainers. Guys that were in a special mission
unit for twenty years doing hits in Iraq and Afghanistan.
That's a different mission focus than a law enforcement officer

(02:23:45):
who is in an entirely different environment. And I remember
one special mission you know guy talking to an agency
in California saying, yeah, as you go by, just make
sure you do an anchor shot in their head as
you go by, And we're like, whoa dude, big, No, Yeah,
that's a little much. Yeah, like that ain't gonna fly here,

(02:24:08):
So there is, you know, so you might be better
off in many situations tailoring your training around what you
might be facing. Yeah, but you can always get a
little bit from everybody. Yeah, right, and always plus up
on your first aid training, always plus up on the

(02:24:28):
healthcare first aid stuff for immediate responder stuff. So yeah,
great stuff. It's been too long, don't I don't. I
wish I could tell you what year that was that
you were here. Oh it was before COVID, Hell.

Speaker 1 (02:24:44):
Yeah for sure. But yeah, this has been a blast.

Speaker 2 (02:24:47):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:24:48):
Thanks to the panel, great discussion, great knowledge. This will
be uncut available to Patron subscribers immediately, both audio form
and video. Big thanks to the viewers, the listeners, the panel,
wonderful discussion. Big thank you to the sponsors Lucky Gunner, Overwatch, Precision, Filster,

(02:25:09):
Primary Arms, Wealter. Lastly, big thank you to Patreon subscribers.
If you like what we're doing here, check out patreon
dot com, Slash, Primary and Secondary. Help support the network.
Dollar a month gets you access to our discord five
dollars discord and a whole lot more to include these live.
You can ask questions as that came up today. You
also get access to these completely uncut, so you don't

(02:25:31):
have to worry about commercials or anything.

Speaker 2 (02:25:32):
Like that, both in audio and video.

Speaker 1 (02:25:35):
As for the norm, I say this nearly at the
end of every episode. I still have a laundry list
of topics. These are putting together. This is hurting cats.
Today's work perfect. But yeah, I have a couple other
topics I'm waiting to hear from people, so stay tuned.
We have more coming. But that's it for tonight. I'll

(02:25:59):
talk to you later.

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P&S ModCast 400 - The Return of DocGKR

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