P&S ModCast 445 - Thunderstick Summit AAR 2025 - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Rotten, the suonent lest elever gone, and then a nineteen
eleven and ten milimeters just because see Fisher.

Speaker 2 (00:06):
Says, to dude, let me tell you that that that
little marlin with a dot on it. I just threw
a dot on it because I'm kind of whatever with it.
It's a fifty to seventy five yard hunting gun for me,
and oh my god, like so for giggles, right, I
had this stash of bs am I right to shoot,
use and play with. I had some of the one
hundred and fifteen green underwood ten millimeters. They clocked in

(00:30):
it just under two thousand eighty per second, and I
was like, that's ridiculous. But most of the stuff in
the one fifty to one eighty range is hitting fifteen
sixteen hundred feet per second, and so that's kicking out
like eight hundred and fifty to eight fifty five pounds
of energy. I'm like, more than not for white taels.

(00:51):
I'm going to slaughter some stuff with that.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
And of course, just as we're starting to talk, I
hear a five year old saying, Daddy, daddy, I'll be
right bow Yeah, I'm a.

Speaker 4 (01:05):
Chill the deer with this year I'm gonna try what.

Speaker 2 (01:09):
Shockwave fourteen inch rankov SEMy so fun story, fun story
about killing deer with dumb guns. So Michigan for years
was a shotgun only zone, right for in the lower half,
I was like shotgun, muzzleod or whatever, pistols and cool story, right,
I mean we got straight ball cartridges in two thousand

(01:31):
and nine.

Speaker 4 (01:31):
Da da da da. I killed them on two years
ago with this guy, which is a nang.

Speaker 2 (01:42):
Little yes, sir, right, So yeah, I killed the deer
with this gun what two years ago?

Speaker 4 (01:49):
With critical duty critical.

Speaker 2 (01:51):
Defense at like thirty five yards, sitting in the marsh,
just hanging out, you know, watching the deer come through
in this Doeum.

Speaker 4 (01:57):
So I was like just folded her, folded her, and
I'm just doing it for fun.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Like in Oklahoma, I killed dear with muscleoad or rifle
crossbow compound. Though, like the two things left on my
agenda are shotgun and some kind of handgun.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Do it, I'll tell you, man, like as they do
dose a big handgun hunter, I'll tell you I killed
them with forty five, forty one, three fifty seven mag
and ten millions and ten mills might go to but man,
a four inch or six inch three fifty seven mag
does a great job on them with like one fifty
one eighties forty five did really good with some plus

(02:40):
p loads inside of fifty yards like they work, right,
I'll tell you, man, a good threefty seven magload. If
you got a four inch or six inch gun laying
around with some one fifty one at each, there you go, dude,
it's it's there's some good loads out there in three
fifty seven mag revolver that does a great job on
white tail. I mean, like I said, I've used a

(03:01):
bunch of them over the years and even today, Like
most of the stuff I'm caring around in the woods now,
it's three fifty seven mag lever gun, forty four mag
lever gun or bolt gun and ten mil. And there's
like unless I go up to way up upper right.
When I do that, I take like forty five seventy
three away because I have them and I can use
them up there, no big deal. Or I use like

(03:24):
my six max because why not, right, I get bored.
But downstate here it's usually a lever gun in my hand.
Other than one farm I still shoot my four to
fifty bush mass around them with a two hundred green
load just because I've got the distance to do it.
I've got the three hundred yards. But other than that,
ninety percent of everything I kill is within eighty yards.

(03:47):
So I'm a lever gun junkie. Just converted one of
the local FBI guys here, which is kind of funny.
We were talking about it and he's like, yeah, I
really I think I'm going to try three fifty seven
mag or forty four this year. But that means i'd
have to buy one, I said, Or you can just
come over and grab one out of the rack, you know.
And he's like, oh, I could do that, and like
you should do that, and he's like, okay, I'll do that.
I'm like, fine, just let me know, come by and
grab what. They're all zero have fun, you know, But

(04:12):
that that ten millimeter is just so stupid fun that
I legitimately want to get another one and set it
off to Grizzly or Madpig to have it chopped to
a twelve inchespr.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
That would be So let me let me ask this.
Since you're a ten milimeter god the light, so ten milimeter,
from my understanding of my research, is basically what forty
should have been from the stock right, the frame size
was right, it's the same bullets.

Speaker 2 (04:44):
So what happened was during that time period after the
FBI shootout in Miami, right, the FBI started looking for
a better load, right because the nine mili silver tip failed,
which it didn't fail. It did its job very well
for the distance and what it went through. So the
FBI got in this kick of ten millimeter, which thanks
to Colonel Cooper and Doornis and Dixon back in the day,
we had ten milimeters way back when.

Speaker 4 (05:06):
So, yeah, FBI.

Speaker 2 (05:08):
Revisits saying Smith and Wesson produces a ten oh six
ten seventy six series gun for them. Great, fine, whatever, Well,
you know, it's harsh on the gun for the animal
that they were shooting. The recoil was tremendous for some
of the other smaller framed than statued agents and stuff.
The gun kind of beat itself up a little bit
with their firing cycles, right, So they just said, well,

(05:29):
let's make like a thirty eight three fifty seven meg.

Speaker 4 (05:32):
So that's how the forty came about.

Speaker 2 (05:35):
And originally ten mil if I remember correctly, was way
back in the day, was thirty eight forty was the
original cartridge designator for it, way back in the old
cowboy days. So it's kind of crazy how it's all
come about. But I'll tell you, a man ten mill is
a great round. I love it on deer. I mean
my carry gun for the past month or so. Yeah,

(05:55):
I mean Kramer Leatherns had the wavespan, an old Delta
Elite that was a JoJo's custom gun.

Speaker 4 (06:01):
That was got that.

Speaker 2 (06:02):
I finally clapped out, gave it to Dave Laubert at
Defensive Creations, had him rebuild it all for me. It's
just a great running gun. I carry this thing a
lot with one fifty five's in it, and it's great.
Go buy a ten milimeter, get some amagutio a deer,
you'll be happy.

Speaker 1 (06:23):
Well, I've got the gold cup in the safe, and
I've got some fives and one or two thirty graind
hall of points. I thought about setting them forty five,
setting the sides a twenty five yards and hunts from
a tripod on the wheat sield. So it's going to
be cheating regardless, oh I. And if I drag a
side drag up dough line right to the tripod from

(06:43):
the truck, like, hopefully someone just tickets.

Speaker 4 (06:45):
Nose and it I can just point the gun downward.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely I would if you were
going to do that, I would invest in a little
bit hotter forty five. Load something in like a spicy
one eighty five would probably do a good job. I mean,
two thirty is a decent hollow point. We'll do its
job within range.

Speaker 4 (07:06):
Comma.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
I'd rather see something just a little bit hotter for penetration,
or a solid like buffalo board does. Some had a
couple others in forty five that have done good on
deer for me over the years. Even the stuff from
Double Tap does a really good job.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Sorry, I was just looking at the bost of forty five.
I was sitting on my shelf. It's two hundred in Winchester.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
There you go, shoot that. Just put it in their
lungs and kill them. You might do a little track job,
but you'll be right. Just don't screw it up. There's Cody, Hi, Cody, Hey,
what's going on? I was just telling the boys earlier
he was talking about Boon was talking about killing the
deer with his little fourteen inch gun this year, hopefully,
And I said you want to see something stupid. I
killed the deer with and I pulled the little Vang

(07:46):
shock Waves seventy gun off the wall. Said yeah, I
did one with this at like thirty five yards with
some critical duty in it, at about you know, thirty
thirty five and this sitting in the marsh and his
dough just kept popping her head up looking around.

Speaker 5 (07:58):
I was like, Oh, that's what she gets for poking
her head around.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
That's I should have shot the other six tonight that
we're hanging out. But it's archery season, so nice. They're
all little, and they're all just scorely right now.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
It's kind of funny. I have tailed those for blowing
to love. Yeah fash Oh, I've murdered them plenty for that. Yeah. Truth.

Speaker 2 (08:21):
I'll tell you one of the best deer killing rounds
that's out in three fifty seven mag the one seventy
green hammered down from Federal is really good. Or one
fifty eight American Eagle. I kill a lot of deer
with both those wolves this Tiland rifle. Yeah, someday I'll
get a forty four meg auto mag.

Speaker 3 (08:41):
Yeah, why not?

Speaker 2 (08:46):
Because that costs money and I'm tyre spending money on
dumb stuff that I'm never going to use except for
like once every other three years. Yeah, that's why I've
been having yard sales.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
It's great.

Speaker 4 (08:57):
That's how I feel about that.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
Say that ten grand on my house that I'm just
fixing to sell, and it's like, Oh, I'm never going
to look at this signing or this paint color. But
if I'm going to sell it for the money.

Speaker 4 (09:08):
I want, I have to do it. Yep. Oh yeah,
trust me. I just did all new light fixtures in
the house. Hmm.

Speaker 3 (09:20):
It's funny. He did all these light fixtures in the house,
and yet he just lives in the basement I do.

Speaker 2 (09:25):
It's great because you know why, because this is where
everything is, and everything everything is ear If I did
it upstairs, it'd be just a disaster, right, I'd be like,
where am I going to put the kitchen table?

Speaker 4 (09:36):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
Just put some two by four planking or two bytes
across the pallet racks. You'll be fine with all the
amild I could I miss having that house. I miss
having the guy home way back in the day. Man,
it was great furniture made out of two by four
milk crates and cinder blocks.

Speaker 4 (09:53):
Best days ever. I'd take them back and hurt meat.
So there was an.

Speaker 3 (09:59):
Event resent, Well there, what do we do? It was
a Thunderstick Summit. So what number is this? How many
have there been already?

Speaker 4 (10:12):
I think five?

Speaker 5 (10:17):
Yeah, it was the fourth official. Yeah, the fourth one.
It's the four official.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (10:25):
We only saw tickets to three of them.

Speaker 3 (10:31):
How has attendance been? Has it increased? Has it leveled off? Cool?

Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (10:36):
Increased?

Speaker 4 (10:37):
TB.

Speaker 5 (10:38):
I don't know if you wanted to talk about the
first one.

Speaker 4 (10:41):
Yeah, the first one was an invite only and was
I think sixteen people. It was sort of a half invite.
And then I think we sold it out four minutes
or something, you know. And then and it was sort
of a test run at Dallas Pistol Club on the concept,
which obviously worked. And then allied with Cody and the

(11:06):
folks at VANG and we did the first one up
in Vegas at a range outside of Vegas, and you know,
we had a lot of people there, but we were
kind of right on top of each other. The range
was rocky, Yeah, it was hot, it was you know,
it was all the things. And then we moved up
to Utah and that went off well, except it was

(11:30):
so far away for you know, the consideration when doing
this with with somebody like Vang Komp to have kind
of a good you know, makes sense corporate sponsor, you know,
entity involved in it is you know, they had to
close for what like a week Cody to do that
up there.

Speaker 5 (11:50):
Yeah, yeah, not kind of the lead up or the
wine down.

Speaker 4 (11:55):
Yeah. So we made the decision to move back to
Vegas so that it was easy or for the BANG
people and ended up at the Staccato Range in Perump
And you know, the facility is I think about perfect
for what we're trying to do. Cool and and now
we can get uh you know now that I think

(12:17):
we found a home if that makes sense, you know,
is that that facility works for Bang, for all of us.
It's fairly easy to get to uh Vegas. And yeah,
and and like I said, the facility was great where
we were far enough apart that we could hear. You know,

(12:39):
that's a problem if you're right next to each other
on a twelve gage. You know, when you're running like
you know, eight ranges of gauge is a lot of
times if you're trying to do some sort of lecture
teaching or whatever, and you can't hear and I'm distracting.
So I think we we were able to spread out
enough to make it work. And yeah, and it's a
great facility. So we haven't finalized anything. I did propose

(13:04):
to Cody about maybe doing you know, skipping the end
of the year in twenty sixth and moving it to
spring in Vegas because the weather, unlike everywhere else in
the country, Vegas is pretty predictable as far as it's
not going to have you know, it won't be like

(13:26):
trying to do something over here where I'm at, where
you got you know, tornadoes, hail, all that. All the
other places can get spring snow, you know, Vegas in
something like February early March probably wouldn't be bad with
nice mild temperatures because it was a little too hot

(13:47):
the last time, the first one we did in Vegas.

Speaker 5 (13:51):
Yeah, yeah, got into pretty high like ninety two or
ninety three on the first Vegas one, and a lot
of the folks from across the country are not you
to that type of heat. So that was that was
a consideration for this year, and that's why we had
covers everywhere and air conditioning and all that. So yeah,
I mean, we don't have dates for twenty six yet,

(14:11):
but we'll see what the facility has. Taccato because it's
such a nice facility, it's you know, it's hard to
get it and you know it's a little more expensive,
but also they book out pretty quick. Fortunately we're not
holding them up. They've they've got a lot of people.
They're kind of picking who they want. They really liked
us having us there last time. There's a different group

(14:32):
of folks for them. Heck, I think two or three
of the people who attended bought Stacato's at the gift
shop and they were like, that's awesome. We haven't so
they get They gave a fresh discount for the folks,
so they'll definitely do that next year too. So I
think we found a home for Vegas. And like Bolk
you was saying, it's for us to close the shop
down to travel is really tough on us. So having
it in the backyard means we just have to sort

(14:53):
of you know, we have the spin up and wind
down week ahead, week behind sort of thing, so it
you know, takes a bit of the sting out of
that for business. For vang Kompas on the whole. But yeah,
we've kind of talked about having a thunderstick. There's the
first year we had it in Vegas, you know, it
was like sixty sixty shooters about, and then up in

(15:17):
Utah it was like seventy ish, and then this year
we had over one hundred people signed up for the class.
But life happened and we actually wound up with I
believe eighty I think there's eighty five or eighty six
shooters there at the event, which is yeah, a growth
every year, and then in this year's economy, I think
that's really big to show some sort of growth, yeah,

(15:38):
for the training and everything. But that's why we the
thought was before we actually opened registration for this year,
we had over four hundred people on the wait list
for this event.

Speaker 4 (15:49):
So we're like, four.

Speaker 5 (15:50):
Hundred people, we're gonna have trouble. You know, we got
to get some extra instructors in here. We're gonna need
extra ranges and all that stuff. So we we opened
the registration and had it open ended. We didn't really
have a timeline on anything or a total amount of
attendees because we're going to be able to grow it
with Staccato's facility, we could have grown that to a
thousand shooters. So we've got that potential at the facility

(16:14):
for that. So we're keeping that in mind and trying
to get people you know who want to come shoot
chuck guns with us at least once a year, and
then the plan was to go service the other markets
that we couldn't reach. Being in Vegas is pretty good.
It's not as central as a Texas location, but it's
still a big hub for travel, and we got all
the West coast. We've got a bunch of people who
traveled all the way over from the East coast this year.
But the plan is eventually maybe to do one of

(16:36):
these on either side of the country once a year,
or maybe we alternate and skip every other year. So
it's we're still working it out. Like dB, I'll tell you,
we're working out the bugs. Every year, the fruit becomes
higher and higher, the low hanging fruit. So it's like,
oh now we got to okay. Now people are okay,
I don't want this bathroom. I want this bathroom. It's
like okay, but we have bathrooms. That's good.

Speaker 4 (17:00):
The key this year was gonna it was what I
told all the instructors. This year was a very much
a transitional year of We've got our footing. Now, we
have a facility, we have the market we're looking for,
we have the instructor base we're looking for. We kind
of have all the all the cards are on the
table now, it's a matter of how we play them.

(17:21):
The other thing is we we you know, part of
this is a learning process. And if you look at
a lot of the big conferences in the country, you
know they don't give refunds. We're learning about that. You know,
we had about I think we had what like twenty
shooters who were rollovers from other events they couldn't make
Like that's gonna stop. We've had to I've had to

(17:43):
do that now with revolve around up and some of
this other ones that we're getting so many people who
are like, well, I can't come cauld I get a refund,
you know, a week before the event. Yeah, that's gonna
We're gonna and you know a lot of people get
mad about like, uh the you know at TACON, you
know that it's a no refund policy. We get it.

(18:06):
What we're going to probably do is go to something
like what we're doing revolve around up with six months.
You got up to a certain date and after that
you're done because we have to plan the event, plan,
the instructors plan, our travel plan, the logistics plan that,
and you know, I'm sorry if something happens, but you know,
that's that's sort of life. But you know, and I

(18:29):
think we're going to be able to now grow this
and do a lot particularly what's going on. Is the
goal with the Vegas location is I think we can
really service a California market that should be especially with
everything going on there. This should end up being a
very shotgun heavy state in California, and to have an

(18:50):
event this close would be stupid for people to not
show up there. It also makes it easier for our instructor,
Cadra to not have to go teach and California, which
is a pain for everybody, you know, be complying with
all of their stuff. So you know, everything's coming together

(19:11):
that this shouldn't be end up being a real premiere event.
We've showcased a couple of new younger instructors this year
with the idea of being able to grow them into
where those guys can now have basically paid the necessary
dues two, we can expand the instructor cadre which allows
us to have more. So we got a facility that

(19:33):
will basically take as many as we can sign up,
and we're vetting an instructor cadre that we're proud to
put in front of those students. So that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (19:45):
On site. Is there also plenty of ammunition available just
in case they.

Speaker 4 (19:50):
Take a step.

Speaker 5 (19:52):
From the hauts. Yeah, that's actually something we're going to
be doing for the this year and the years past
ever since Vang's been involved. So thunder Stick two, three
and four, we uh vancomp sold a AMMO pack with
the registration, so you could just show up with boots
on and use our ammo. And we had rental guns
as well, so you don't even have to bring a shotgun.

(20:13):
Just come shoot shoot chuck and great for first timers
or people who don't want to fly with their guns.
So the first couple of years we had an ammunition
that wasn't used because the blocks that you take are different. Right,
if you go take Bulky's class, that might be thirty
rounds a buck shot, or if you if you take
Steve's class, it was it twelve hundred rounds. A bird
shot off that, Yeah, something like that.

Speaker 4 (20:34):
So it's hard. That awesome.

Speaker 5 (20:37):
Yeah, go if you want to shoot, if you got
extra ammo, take Fisher's block.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Hey, people wanted to come shoot, That's what they signed
up for. They shot exactly right.

Speaker 5 (20:45):
But this year we weren't so sophisticated or solidified on
like what an average round acount would have been. So
we played it safe and everybody bought as much ammo
as they would have if they were going to take
Fisher's class. Not everybody took Fisher's class, so there was
extram This year. I'm going to get the round counts
ahead of time and I'll have a variable package for

(21:05):
them based on Fisher stick. I said, there'll be a
suggestion from Fisher Fish, you have to shoot at least
two hundred rounds in.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
I think I ended up donating an entire flat Eric
because I didn't want to fly back to Tulsa with it.

Speaker 4 (21:20):
I was like, Eric, do you want this? He said yes.

Speaker 1 (21:22):
I said, give it to students that remind you of me.

Speaker 4 (21:25):
No, hopefully ahead of those.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
Well, I hope.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
The other thing is we're looking at and we're going
to end up purchasing it because of how deep I
am now revolving running the Revolver events is We're going
to put purchase a scheduling software that will get We're
gonna we're going to bring you know, Cody's team on
board with that so we can solve a lot of

(21:50):
the scheduling, to make it easier for the students to
sign up for everything ahead of time and be able
to kind of run their schedules all of that. So
a lot of this is learning how to do these things.
And I think we're basically, like I said, this was
a transition year from amateur Hour and actually getting it
all figured out, and it's sort of a process. And

(22:13):
next year we should absolutely guild any thing. It should
be real or the next event, like I said, it'll
either be end of the year twenty five or the
beginning of twenty six, depending on where we are with
a facility. But I'm kind of liking the idea of
the spring event because because it's in Vegas and we
can do it. You know, Vegas tends not to be retarded,

(22:35):
you know what. It tends to not be horribly hot
in the spring, and it's not and if it is cold,
it's a dry cold, which is much more tolerable than
wet cold.

Speaker 2 (22:50):
So yeah, I think a lot of it with the
AMMO part, is right. We get guys that are like, oh, well,
I'm saying it for this, but a sudden this looks
good on the ala carte menu, right, and then they
jump into one or the other or something else along
those lines. Not a big deal, right, That's why we're
all the instructors that we are, and we've done this before.

(23:10):
I'm like, shore, we'll take you know, xt number of people?

Speaker 4 (23:12):
Why not?

Speaker 2 (23:13):
But it's always hard, right when you're telling somebody around
count right, Like any course that you go to, it's
like five hundred rounds of minimum, right, you show up
the pistol class, Hey man, bring five hundred rounds of minimum,
right for two days or a day or whatever it
is you're doing. Like carbing class, Oh, it says five
to seven hundred rounds. Well you better bring a thy
to twelve hundred, right. And then it varies on the
number of bodies, right, because let's say I get a

(23:34):
block where I've got eight dudes instead of eighteen, Well
we're going to get double the reps. Yeah, you know,
so you're gonna you're going to shoot a lot more
in at four.

Speaker 4 (23:43):
Hours, five hours, or whatever hour.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
Block it is that we're teaching. At that point, you're
going to shoot. And that's just a nature of the beast.
And while it does suck, right because dudes buy Ammo,
they do whatever, you know, and I know we've we've
talked about this little bit with.

Speaker 4 (23:55):
Cody and dB and stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
It's like, hey, here's the minimum here's the minimum package
of Ammo, here's the max package of AMMA or the
other the cards stuff that we'll have on site.

Speaker 5 (24:03):
Yeah, oh cool, we'll always have the all the cart stuff.
As long as Vang's involved, we're going to have extra Ammo.
So that way, that's never an issue. You're not going
to have to run, you know, two hours into the
main town. I mean, I guess what from the range
to the hotels in Peru was like thirty minutes or so.

Speaker 4 (24:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (24:21):
There's not any big box stores there where you could
go grab a bunch of bird shot, so.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
Yeah, Walmart was about it.

Speaker 5 (24:26):
Yeah, yeah, and so that's like worst case scenario, but
we'd have stuff on hand.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
The other thing is the instructor cadre. We have the
reason they are the instructors we have have been selected.
Is every one of these guys has the ability to
wing this thing, you know, and you're doing it because
we don't know what kind of students we're getting. Yeah, yeah,
And inevitably you have the students who show up who go,

(24:56):
I'm going to just shoot like I'm going to I
won't shoot like like like five hundred rounds in every class. Well,
if you haven't ever done this a lot, that's hard,
you know, and we find it, you know, it's like
we have to do that with the revolver stuff is
tell guys you're gonna shoot more than you actually are,

(25:17):
because they forgot how tired you get shooting double axe
and revolvers a lot, you know. And if you tell them, hey,
it's the two hundred rounds for a day, they're like, well,
I'm not going to a two hundred round a day class.
And then you get through like one hundred and forty
rounds and they're all blown, you know. And the twelve
gage stuff is that too, if you're not if you're

(25:38):
shooting a lot, particularly if you're shooting a lot of
bucking slug, yes, and you're out there running for days
and lots of manipulations and all that. These guys get tired.
Now you have run the rump, right, you have the
you have the training junkies who can handle it. But
most of these guys who are coming or not training junkies.

(25:58):
So we have to you know, balance the classes out.
Like you know, as an instructor, we have to judge
how safe it's going to be to and how hard
we can run the students. So we were trying now
to have a real varied type of event where the
students can really realistically pick who they want for instructors.

(26:22):
Like if you don't take don't take four classes with
Steve or you're gonna get completely blown out. And the
same thing, don't take more classes with me because you're
going to be disappointed because you didn't shoot a lot.
But the thing is, my class generally melts brains. Steve
classes melts bodies, you know, and it's a different kind

(26:46):
of tire. So you know, that's part of it is
once we get our once enough gets out on this,
the students will better be able to pick what they want.

Speaker 3 (27:00):
Cool will that be part of the menu to see that? Okay,
to go to Steve Fisher that's high intensity. Going to
Darryl is high intensity mental.

Speaker 4 (27:10):
Right, Yeah, I talked about.

Speaker 5 (27:14):
Go ahead, Cody, I was going to say, we talked
about like a green you know, green slopes, blue slopes,
black slopes, like a difficulty rating of courses, and you know,
along with that sort of self evaluation of your own
skill to see you're like, I think I'm a blue
shooter and then you show up and you're like, actually,
you're not even a green. You need to be on

(27:35):
like money slopes. That's that happened this year, and I
don't want it. Only once it was bone and I
was first three bloss That's that's a good place. That's
where I go, so you know, and.

Speaker 4 (27:54):
That that was the thing is is the frustrating part
of this when what you know, we've gone out of
our way to off for Frickey's class for people to
go in get yourself squared away, like you're basically getting
an entire basic shot that class at this event and.

Speaker 5 (28:11):
Then a certificate. It's a separate nine hour class.

Speaker 4 (28:14):
Yeah, and then you can go then you can go
take some other stuff on the last day that you're
now not a drag on the class. You know what
I mean, and then we had one person who didn't
felt like they were a beginner because they've shot once before.
Literally I've shot this gun one time, and then they
think they need to be in some of the higher

(28:35):
speed classes and there's like, no way.

Speaker 5 (28:39):
It's sort of and I take the blame for that
because I didn't give anybody a metric by which to
be like, Okay, well I should am I a beginner?
It's like, well, do you think you're a beginner? It
was sort of that was the metric. Now, like when
you sign up for a classes beginner level and then
intermediate and advanced sort of, but it's like either you're
taking Frickey's class for the first day and a half

(28:59):
or you're already a shotgun jedi. Those are sort of
the only options that we have on the site currently.
So we're going to have some sort of metric by which, like,
you know, I know, some of the classes, some of
the classes for pistol shooters, you know, they're like, hey,
you've got to be like a USPSA B class or
higher just.

Speaker 4 (29:17):
To just to sign up.

Speaker 5 (29:18):
So I mean, that's obviously not a metric for a
shotgun class, but it's something like that where it's like, hey,
if you can do a voal hola drill in ten seconds,
this is probably a good class for you. If you
don't know what a vol holad drill is, maybe you
take the beginner class because you're going to learn all
that stuff. So these are things that we're kind of
rolling around for the idea for registration for twenty twenty

(29:39):
six cool.

Speaker 3 (29:40):
Were there any classes where it was pure lecture and
no shooting?

Speaker 5 (29:45):
Nothing this year?

Speaker 1 (29:45):
First part of Freaky's first block was a lot of lecture.

Speaker 4 (29:49):
I don't think we picked up guns until right at
lunchtime or a little after. Yeah, and that's normal with a
basic shotgun class, you know. Yeah, yeah we may be
hitting one of Yeah, we may end up adding that
at some point. We do it now on our big
revolver classes because we found so many people tapped out,

(30:11):
then we gave them, we gave them a place to
tap out to. Yeah. Physically, yeah, there's no there's no uh,
you know, sham in this. If you don't want to
go to this class, or you're done, or you're sprained
your ankle or your fingers are bleeding or whatever, go
to the lecture class. You know, when you get something

(30:31):
out of it, and we may end up needing to
do that with this like it, particularly on the last day.

Speaker 5 (30:39):
Yeah, people are tired.

Speaker 4 (30:42):
Yeah, and you know, unpredictable stuff happens. You get people
who are blowing thee out, you know, turn an ankle, uh,
you know, get a finger caught in a bolt, between
a bolt and an injection port, you know, and all
of a sudden, you know your trigger fingers got three
stitches in it or you know, well, you didn't really
get it is it's got a lot of duct tape
on it. Because that's the close. Maybe maybe you're signed

(31:08):
up for Steve's classes your last one and your fingers
super glued closed. Probably now give them an option for
some So these are all sort of the learning curve
on this and your shotgun classes, in particularly my stuff
with a shotgun and revolver classes. They are not like
car being classes. I mean, you can shoot carbings and

(31:29):
striker fired pistols for days. I mean you might be
getting crap trigger presses at the end, but you can
shoot those guns physically for days. Yes, man, shooting manually
operated shotguns and double action only guns for days is
just hard. Yeah, it's hard on the guns. Yeah, that's

(31:51):
the other thing is how hard how hard can you
run a sporting shotgun? And the reality is they're all
sporting shotguns. How hard can you run your gun for
days at a time before shit starts falling off and breaking?
So with that in mind, would.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
It makes sense to have maybe in the middle of
the day of the days, here's a here's an amendmance
course and you're you're going to keep your gun up
and running.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (32:18):
Absolutely, I mean that's it's a great idea, and we've
got the capability to do it. We can actually vangcomp
we can actually hand out law enforcement armor certificates after
you know, an eight hour class, so we could do that.
It's just there's not enough time. It's only three days, man, Like,
that's we look at this and there's a lot of
good ideas and it's like, Okay, we're going to do

(32:39):
one of these a year and we're going to there's
five it's five blocks of training. That's what people can get.
It's five blocks five you know what is it? Three
or four hour blocks? And that's that's not for having
that much knowledge in one place.

Speaker 4 (32:52):
That's not a lot of time. Wait, is that is that?
All we did was I got gypped somewhere.

Speaker 5 (33:00):
I was saying the student you know, the students, yeah yeah,
and then Steve, Yeah, Steve and Eric staying late for
the low light Yeah.

Speaker 4 (33:08):
A low light class.

Speaker 1 (33:09):
So yeah, and I got gypped on low light because
of the damn lighting.

Speaker 2 (33:14):
Stop your crying. You should have gotten the first one then, hero,
Yeah you didn't get jipped. That was that.

Speaker 5 (33:19):
That lecture. I tell people that lecture was something special
like that that was worth the price of admission. Right there,
the bouncing back between Steve and you know, Gelhouse and
then hell Pressburg was there. Chuck was talking about you know,
it was that triangle was great. Did you did you
feel enriched by that boon?

Speaker 4 (33:37):
Oh? I perd I learned.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
I learned some about running the gauge in the dark,
and I learned some about fighting.

Speaker 4 (33:43):
In the dark. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (33:45):
Yeah, So even though you weren't able to press the
trigger that much, you got pretty much the full lecture
and then everything we could under the shade, well in
between lightning strikes. Once that lightning struck within a mile,
it was like that was close. That one was close.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
It was cool that night because like between the daytime
block when they were checking our fundamentals and making sure
everybody's gun in my case the gun fit it because
see fun of me because my stock was too short.
And then that night between the blocks, I gave Steven
Eric cigars and I was able to have like conversations
with him about how to future myself within the farms industry,

(34:21):
talk about how I can be an instructed, what's the
right task to take, talked about different equipment, kind of
just had to bs with them for an hour and
a half or whatever it was between the two blocks,
and it was super cool to be able to do
that right.

Speaker 4 (34:33):
And you know, that's the you know, I think this
is I think we've figured out that this is a
great way to do an annual event like this on
some of these systems, is for the student to be
able to come get you know, their annual mecca to

(34:54):
a you knock all the rust off of these systems
and then if you really like one instructor, go take
a class from them. But otherwise, man, you get to
dip your toe into a lot of different pools and
get a lot of different knowledge that really allows the
students to not have to join a cult. You know

(35:16):
they can get You know, I don't teach things the
same as other people, and some stuff is absolutely identical.
But the one thing again on the reason that the
instructor cadre we have is there is not an instructor
there who cannot clearly define the context of why they

(35:37):
teach what they teach. We all teach some stuff that's
a little bit different, but we can all tell you
exactly why we do it that way. Man, for the students,
that is so much better than being in a cult
program where we're all going to do it this way
because my instructor, sen Say Guru, says this is the
only way to do it. And this industry is horrible

(35:59):
for that of you know, I almost doing we've almost
copied the nineteen eighties martial arts, you know, dojo programs
where you know you have to take this level of
belt thing and this thing from this instructor seventeen times. Man,
I think it's great that you can see somebody like

(36:21):
who might teach poll poll versus push pull? Decide what
you like? When do you use either one? Because I
use both of them. And there's a time and a
place for everything. What kind of lighting equipment you want
on your gun? Do you need it? You know? How
did my sling work out? You know? God, you could
spend all day doing slingshit and we all like different

(36:42):
kinds of slings for different reasons. And the student can go, oh, well,
what that guy's talking about better fits my world. But
then you know, later on they could be out in
a different scenario or move to a different place, and
what they need changes and can go, oh, I remember
I took this last from so and so at this

(37:03):
event that he talked about that exact mission change that
I'm now facing, and you know it's all different.

Speaker 3 (37:15):
So there's shotgun, there is a revolver. When is there
going to be a lever gun summit?

Speaker 4 (37:23):
Well, we had already talked about somebody is doing one
coming up. Yeah, and because we had a bunch of
our students hit us up that we're going to do.
So I'll let the cat out of the bag here.
We've already we got dates, books and everything. Well, we're

(37:45):
doing a single action one. Oh cool, Yeah, we're going
to do we we have somehow got ourselves into single
action revolvers. So next year September, we're doing a single
action event. School will be along the same line as these.
I think range Ready or somebody is going to be

(38:06):
doing a lever gun. There's a couple of level ones
coming up, so yeah, we.

Speaker 2 (38:10):
Get one man, We've got one coming up and at
Thunder Ranch in August that it's like it's me the
Thunder Ranch staff. I know Smith and Wesson's involved, a
couple of their companies are involved that will all be
bringing lever guns and wheel guns. So we're making them
do lever gun wheel gun work for you know, three
days or whatever it is. So that's that's gonna be

(38:31):
a fun one to do in August, just because it's
something different, right, I mean it's a lever gun, so
essentially it's a shotgun. That's great, you know, so it's
really not hard, but it's always a good time with that.
But no, I think this event, being part of it
from ground zero has been awesome, right, just watching you know,
being on the back side of it as well as
the front half, watching it kind of develop into what
it is. It's been great, right, it absolutely has been.

(38:53):
It's great to see the new guys coming on board,
getting the younger crews involved that are already doing shotgun work,
but also helping them develop their programs, their curriculums, their work.
You know, well, they're still going to do their thing right.
It doesn't matter right because everybody's got a spinn or
recipe on something. But it's good to see that there's
this baseline of this is what is like kind of
what we would consider like universally acceptable for the power curve,

(39:17):
you know, so to speak on the gun. So it's
been good to see that as well.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
And you know, for me, some of the joy in
this is both at this event and the Revolver events,
is we're now getting you know, it's finally coming to fruition.
We're getting a lot of younger shooters cool and it
warms my heart to see kind of these you know,
millennial gen zs, you know, you know, the the kind

(39:45):
of the whole Striker John Wick car being crew. There's
plenty of stuff out there for those guys. But what
we're starting to see now is we are getting that
group that I envision to people who live you who
aren armies who live in Chicago, live in la live
in New York, you know, Massachusetts. We are getting the

(40:08):
younger people from these places and younger shooters who are
getting on board with this that these are good skills
to have. And you know, whether you you know, if
you can own an ar in a mag fed pistol terrific.
But there's a place for all of this stuff, and

(40:29):
it's good to be well rounded. And this allows you
to just go to a buffet, you know. This is
like the difference between you know, Golden Corral and then
going to a real buffet and bake, you know, and
you know, and watching guys who are you know, used
to cafeteria food and then they get into one of

(40:51):
these ones where they're shaving off prime rib and going, oh,
there's a different world out here that I didn't That
is a sophisticated world I didn't know existed. Dan. All
of these skills translate.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
Yes, I think that the other big part of this event, right,
it's good for the manufacturers that do show up or
do support or what have you, right when they show up,
like Mosburg. Monsburg has been heavily involved in the past
three years. Now we're two years, three years whatever, it's
been two years Burretta and others. And the beauty of
it is they actually get to see their guns being

(41:24):
used and hear from the end users, not only the instructors,
but the people that are using them. Likes, dislikes, improvement,
stuff like that. Right, it's kind of approving ground for
a lot of their stuff, some of the new guns,
some of the older guns, some refinements to guns that
may already be in the system.

Speaker 4 (41:39):
And it's great.

Speaker 2 (41:40):
It's really good to watch what breaks there, right, and
that on a giggle the giggle moment, Right, I love
watching stuff breaking classes because it's great. It just makes
me overjoyed when you're like, yeah, this happened. I said,
I told you this was going to happen, but nobody
listens to me.

Speaker 4 (41:55):
What do I know?

Speaker 2 (41:56):
Right, So it's good for the manufacturers to see these things,
not that they're going to really make any changes because
they're lazy.

Speaker 4 (42:03):
And that's just not all of them, not all of them,
you know.

Speaker 2 (42:07):
So mostburn listened pretty well, that's all I'm gonna says.
Listen very well, you guys.

Speaker 4 (42:13):
Part part of this is, you know, you look at
these manufacturers of who they're talking to most of the time,
and it's mouth it's well, it's mouth breathers. You know,
shot show n R a show you know, coming up
to the booth and they're listening to these influencers. Hoor

(42:33):
you know their their mercenary attention. Whoors what they get
at events like this is they get exposure to super
consumers who are actually using the equipment. I'm saying it, Well,
they're using it in a in a hard ass test environment,

(42:54):
and you know, they can watch ship falling off of
guns and they can watch it fail and they can
sit there and look that like why is everybody using
this one piece of ament or gear or why are
they all doing this? And we don't even offer that
as a manufacturer. It's like, well, g golly, willockers, it's

(43:15):
maybe you haven't listened to the people who have actually
use the gear. You're listening to Bob from the gun shop,
you're coming up and talking to you at the NRA show.

Speaker 5 (43:27):
Now you just need to racket.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
So here's here's a lot of that problem too, right,
being on the back half of let of manufacturing over
the years, it's a lot of places they ultimately a
lot of times don't care because like, well this is
the like five percent, not the fifty seventy five percent. Right,
So you guys are the rare ones that actually shoot
their guns. I'm like, okay, cool, whatever. They don't want

(43:51):
to listen. They don't want to hear that their babies
are ugly or that they're wrong in certain things, or
maybe not necessarily wrong. But it could be a little
bit better if you did X Y or Z and
here it's a good chance because we can sit there
and go listen, we saw X number of guns come
back to the repair truck for things, or we saw
X number of guns go down on the range as
causes of this this or this and that environment out there, Right,

(44:11):
it's not easy on guns, right. Being in that blowy,
dusty moondust desert out there is rough on equipment and
the individuals. And knowing this firsthand from a lot of
testing over theres with certain guns like that is a
good place to prove certain things right. And new slash
manual guns are still the best gun. But that being said,
right that they understand that, Okay, they're seeing, you know, dude,

(44:34):
shoot there whatever super blaster or seven thousand shotgun from
X Y or Z company, and the dude is put,
let's just call it seven hundred rounds through the gun
in two three days, and he's like, oh, I had
this problem, this problem, this problem where we found these
sharp points or these were items, or this broke or
this happened and the guns only had five hundred rounds previously,

(44:54):
things of that nature. What optics were holding up and
what did we fail to do to the gun correctly,
like oh, you mean clean degrease and then apply proper
rock set lock tight to the problem and that would
have solved a lot of your issues. Maybe I don't know,
but yeah, so all of this matters right to the
long haul, not only to the instructors, the end user, consumer,

(45:15):
and the manufacturers need to pay more attention like problems
to the guys, right a KICKI. They're out there every year,
right and they're taking feedback there. They're building recoil pads
that we ask for, they're doing stuff with the guns.
They're seeing stuff, you know, Adam from Eredis, you know,
Mossburg guys, whatever, and they're like, oh h we see this, Okay, great,
you know, so that's what it's a good even surefire
this year, right, CJ was out there taking in a

(45:37):
lot of info that's been beneficial to us, you know,
so that that's even great as well, because when you're
getting the the guys who kind of have a voice
or an influence into things can say, hey, listen, I
was there, I kind of saw this firsthand, and I
experienced at firsthand, and whys so we should revisit certain
things or we.

Speaker 4 (45:56):
Should look at this. Okay, maybe we'll see it in
three years. Great and particularly the hard part with the
shotgun world is and we saw this the first event
we had in Vegas when Bretta and hats off the guy,
you know, to Ben for bringing out one of the
you know, for bringing an Italian to the ring. They

(46:17):
are dominant in a wing shooting world. You know where
these guys go. They've really got the bird guns down
because you know, they're they're testing this ship down in Argentina.
They're you know, they've got a lot of input coming
back out of bird shooting world and clay shooting world

(46:37):
on developing guns. The problem is that's not our world,
and they don't realize that it doesn't translate directly. And
for them to come out and see, you know, how
these guns basically how Americans shoot people with guns, you know,
how we hunt humans with these things or depend against

(47:00):
human predators is a completely its own world with its
own set of criteria and issues, and most of these
companies because they do feel they have an expertise on
the guns because of the wing shooting and sports shooting side,
that now they get to see it in a different environment.

(47:21):
You know, we had this also, We had some manufacturers
with the revolver stuff who are having their eyes open,
Like the observation was made at one of our events, like,
oh my god, look at these guns and not one
of them is a current production handgun. What does that
tell you? The light goes on that these guys are

(47:44):
the ones who use this stuff and they don't want
what we're making. Now. Who are we listening to about
what we're making now? And maybe we need to be
listening to different people. And if the influence we can
make is that we are not only building better students
from this buffet, we are building students who can better

(48:07):
articulate what those they want as consumers, that they don't
want stuff that's going to break or fail when used
in these kind of environments that are a life and
death environment. Not my gun went down and I'll have
my gun bearer go to the pro shop and get
the indo. You know, that's the world that's not the

(48:30):
world we work in, and you know, again is how
well can these guns function in low light? How well
will they function when they're being you know, dropped, hit
bumped into things? Of how well will they work when
they're being used with gear, when they're being loaded hard?
You know, there's just a you know, everything we do
on shotguns is a war with a gun. We are

(48:55):
in a physical battle with that gun. That is not
the sporting world and most of the most of those
floral Yeah, I grew up shooting sporting clays and trap
and skeet my life, waterfall hunting, bird hunting, right, it's
a thing. And granted, you know, heavy duck and goose
loads are pounding on guns, they absolutely are. Dudes aren't

(49:16):
shooting that many? Right?

Speaker 2 (49:17):
Some are right, obviously in certain certain situations, certain hunting fields, right,
and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 (49:21):
I get that, right, But when we.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Are shooting upwards of you know, a lot of twelve
gage buck and slug over X number of days, right,
twelve slug and buck puts a lot of abuse on
both ends of that gun. It absolutely does. Verse call it.
A thousand rounds of bird is probably equivalent to one
hundred rounds of buck.

Speaker 4 (49:38):
And slug. Right.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
When you start putting numbers out give or take right,
there's there's some there's arbitrary numbers and earned some variables.
But you know, it's kind of like when I looked
at when we're doing testing on suppressors and they are
shooting three thousand rounds suppressed out on the air, is
probably like shooting seven thousand rounds unsuppressed, right or vice versa.
Right because of the amount of carbon and gas is
another crap that are going back in that gun when

(50:00):
we are pounding those guns with big heavy loads recoil,
you know, just to sheer forces of what held slugs
leaving those guns repeatedly in a lot of buck it
gets brutal.

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Speaker 4 (51:48):
Well, you know the other thing looking at our world
is on the other side of our world the people
who shoot a ton in shotgun world that they've been listened.
What kind of guns do they shoot? No, No, I'm
talking in the sporting world. Oh, sporting world, over and
underside by side, So they're shooting over under side by sides.

(52:10):
Look at all of the bazilion, dolt because those guns
will run forever. They're the inframe revolvers of shotgun world.
There's not much to them, and they're over built for
what they're doing, and you can you really can't get
them that hot. You know what I mean is they're
they're there. There's a reason those guns dominate the world.

(52:32):
Where people go out and shoot a thousand rounds in
a day, there's certain equipment that does it. We're doing
a lot of that same stuff, but it's coming, you know,
six eight at a time, not limiting it to cracking
the gun open, letting it ventets sell and putting bird

(52:53):
shot back at it. You know, we're we're we're beating
the hell out of the guns and the shooters, and
you know, there is it's it begs to need a
different thing and then trying to keep equipment held onto
the thing. You know, all of a sudden, Hey, Steve,
isn't it weird? Do you put pistol sits on a
shotgun and they work? Because in simple you know, it's

(53:14):
like geez, if you put pistol sights on a manually
operated shotgun, none of that ship breaks. Weird stop, weird crazy,
weird stop, weird stop.

Speaker 3 (53:25):
Hey Steve, how many lights did you see fly off?

Speaker 4 (53:28):
A lot?

Speaker 5 (53:29):
Yeah, a few. Some of them were ore on the
rental guns to and that's a learning curve thing for us. Yeah. Yeah,
the mlock stuff and you know, plastic on metal and
metal on metal and it's yeah, and that's you know,
I I know that stuff. I'm not saying that my
guys did stuff wrong. They did. It's not their fault.

Speaker 4 (53:47):
It's my fault.

Speaker 2 (53:48):
Guys need to maintain that as well too, Like we
told you certain lectures, hey man, during breaks water and
topping off, put put a wrench on that, you know,
on that rail if it needs it, or on that
on that pistol right on that light.

Speaker 5 (54:00):
All the rental stuff is getting witness marked next year
and it's all going to be you know, we're going
to reach over everything and get everything perfectly polished. And
so it's that's stuff we learned. You know, I can
go shoot those at the range. I go burn you know,
fifty rounds through. I'm like, hey, this one's good, this
one is good. Got them all zero with the dots, great, cool, good,
they look good. It's witness marke these and send them
and then man, stuff can shake off. Still the shock

(54:22):
and there violence.

Speaker 4 (54:23):
So still the winners, you know, still the winner. That's winter.

Speaker 5 (54:27):
That's right, That's how we got But I'm not sure
if on the fore end light.

Speaker 4 (54:33):
If you're looking end light back, stop being stupid. Yeah,
bring the Yeah, bring the retard simple one back because
that's what that works. Yeah, that's all you need exactly.
And you know that's the other thing is that we
have a world that's been so dominated by the equipment
built to put on five carbeat and then we try

(54:57):
to you know, oh well it'll it will work on
a twelve gage. No, won't. Not really for a living
as well. And if what's funny is if you get
you know, if some of us have been around, those
are old enough that we used to build everything to
go on a twelve gage and then and then you
put it on a rifle because those were weird and

(55:17):
nobody had them, and that stuff all worked. And then
now we're doing this backwards again. That like we're making
uh stuff for car beans and putting it on shotguns
and all of a sudden it doesn't work that way.
It's like, God, this red dot works so well on
my car bean. Yeah. Yeah, it's a real thing.

Speaker 2 (55:43):
It absolutely is, you know, not all equipment that's created equal,
you know, and that's just and that's just a nature
of the beast, right, it's just a fact.

Speaker 5 (55:51):
That's why it's cool seeing Surefire come out, you know.
The it's that's something we've been talking about forever, is
that four in light? It was it was it's always
been heavy and it's always been expensive. But then it
became unavailable and like, okay, we got a problem surefire. Hey,
we didn't mean all those bad things we said about
how heavy it is or how expensive it is. Can
we make it available again?

Speaker 4 (56:10):
Uh, that's my thing.

Speaker 1 (56:12):
I had never shot one until I shot one of
Steve's guns during the night class.

Speaker 4 (56:16):
Yeah, I don't remember why, but he handed me his
gun I shot with it was like, holy shit, this
is ugly, but it works great and it's intuitive.

Speaker 1 (56:23):
It's not me having to push on my X three
hundred and my son's getting the crap feet out of
it every time the gun wants to move or I'm
running the pump like.

Speaker 4 (56:30):
It's intuitive.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
So I'm on the hunt for one for this pound
puppy that I had to pick up for the chisel
stock I won.

Speaker 4 (56:38):
Yeah. You know what's funny is that original Surefire, the
very but not even that one, the one that's the
laser devices laser products, that one that's the one that
didn't weigh a ton and actually did everything it needs
to do on a typical on a typical track gun
that will do everything.

Speaker 5 (56:56):
It needs to do to have the toggle instead of
so it's got the momentary only this one. So this
is like the first one, and then they write a
toggle on it on this side and then yeah.

Speaker 4 (57:09):
Exactly Surefire because if one is good, we gotta.

Speaker 5 (57:14):
Break that switch on that side.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
And then I'm excited, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 5 (57:20):
I'm excited. We'll see what they bring back. It sounds
like they're bringing something out of mothballs. So the doctor
John Matthews says they still got the mold.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
So I'm guessing. I'm guessing the stream light racker is
not doing so hot.

Speaker 5 (57:35):
It's light.

Speaker 4 (57:37):
It's the most negligent, like discharge capable.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
Item I've ever seen in my life. It's just the
ergonomics of it are good for one thing, not good
for a lot of other things. Right, if I had
to have, like if somebody told me today I was
going to give you a stream light racker, you're gonna
put out a house, and I'd be okay with it, right,
something that most people are going to put in the corner,
forget to forget to ever change the back it picking

(58:00):
up like, oh no, it doesn't work. But it's an easy,
somewhat intuitive light to use for the average end user
the gun. Right, Not that the Surefire is difficult, but
the Surefire just gives you better options in different places
than the record.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
Yeah, and you know, for like my stuff that I
just have sitting at home for a home defense gun,
that's where the mlocks with the scout lights and stuff
like that work. Fine, I'm not running the gun hard.
I just need to turn the damn thing on and
turn it off, and that's it. But it's not that
mlock does not have to hold up for thousands of

(58:38):
rounds of being shot or doing building searchers every night,
you know, and all the stuff that I used to
do with that ancient surefire or laser products light. You know,
I've searched thousands upon thousands of rooms and buildings with
one of those, and they for that kind of stuff,
they worked great, and it didn't have to do anything.

Speaker 2 (58:58):
It was to work like even for most of my
like non hard use guns, we'll call it.

Speaker 4 (59:04):
I run a Next three hundred.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
I run a Next three hundred under gun and on
a forty five offset amount, so it puts it up
on barrel line, Yeah, keeps it out away from my.

Speaker 4 (59:13):
Thumbs and fingers getting smashed.

Speaker 2 (59:15):
And you know what, if it takes the g forces
off of a handgun, it's fine, Right, It's gonna do well,
and it does find out a shotgun and it has
done a good job for what I needed to do
in most of the roles. Right, it's ever been presented
hard use walk about guns that do weird things. Yeah, man,
surefire foreuns on them.

Speaker 4 (59:31):
Yeah. Yeah, So all of this stuff is you know,
and the thing is, there's a reason that most of
us have gray in our beards at these events is
you know, this knowledge doesn't come overnight. It comes from
decades of doing this. And you know, we're not as

(59:52):
fast as we used to be, We're not as nimble
as we used to be, but there's a whole lot
of shit in our brain of watching these cycles go
over and over. And you know, Tom Gibbons, you know,
I really put a lot of credence because he's right.
Is you know, this whole industry recycles every fifteen years,
and I think about my first fifteen years of doing this,

(01:00:14):
and then I think about my second fifteen years of
doing it, where now I'm sick of everybody because I've
finished that up. And when I look back at guys
like pat Rogers and some of these guys who had
already been through three cycles of this ship, yeah, you're
just like, it's all bullshit, you know, And there's some
simple things that end up working and they don't. And

(01:00:36):
you can either listen to us or you can't. We
don't care, but we're at least got I've now gotten
an instructor cadre at this event that you're going to
get one endo the spectrum to the other. And now
especially having guys like you know, Zach and Cagele out there.
You know, Cagle's doing this shit every day. That's why
he's not here. He's going in in some meth house

(01:00:57):
tonight with a twelve gage, you know. And he got
Zach on the on sort of the citizens side, you know,
out there farming or doing whatever the hell he does.
And you know, these guys we now have have younger
guys who basically can function like we did when we
were younger, with you know, their performance, but they're being

(01:01:20):
influenced by guys who are hitting, who are past their
their second fifteen year cycle and headed into their third
or at the third in the case of like Frickey.
So but we're not Steve Zach Cocker, Zach Tux.

Speaker 2 (01:01:40):
He's one of He's run on some of the patchy
solutions for a while.

Speaker 4 (01:01:43):
Good dude, Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, cowboy out long hair cigarettes,
you know, the hippie cowboy hippie Yeah, pretty much pretty much.
But yeah, it's it's all good stuff, and uh, you know,
The only thing I worry about is Steve around fricky

(01:02:04):
these days? Is if Steve starts showing up with blouse,
boots and an outline for his class, were in trouble
that He's never He's never okay, good.

Speaker 2 (01:02:13):
I just want to make sure only for agency courses
because they didn't want something on paper.

Speaker 4 (01:02:18):
After that, I don't care. Yeah, it's like nope, not
gonna happen.

Speaker 3 (01:02:24):
So on the equipment side, for you guys looking at
this whole thing, both on the instructor side and on
the student side, because we need to include the boon,
were there any were there any specific things that were
surprising in a good way, something that really performed to
a level that you weren't anticipating, or a new product
that you want. Oh, I got to check this out

(01:02:44):
more in depth after seeing it in person that you
may not have been background with.

Speaker 1 (01:02:49):
I think as a student. The one thing that kind
of surprised me is, I mean, you hear a lot
about the Baretta Gascon, specifically the thirteen oh one month too,
and there were several people in the different classes I
was in, or abracial whatever that were having issues that
the guns may not have fully gone down, but they
were having like maintenance issues or they were gonna have
to clean it, or they're gonna have to pull the bolt,

(01:03:10):
or they were going to have to do these things
that I was really kind of surprised about because they
didn't think about it in the moment, right, because I
wasn't thinking, like Daryl said earlier, anytime you fire more
than two were the shelves, right, You're beating.

Speaker 4 (01:03:22):
The shit out of this gun. And when you're.

Speaker 1 (01:03:25):
Beating on these guns consistently, you get halfway through day
two or the beginning of date.

Speaker 4 (01:03:29):
Three, and your thirteen oh one's going down. Here eight
three hundreds going down, Your nine.

Speaker 1 (01:03:33):
Thirty is going down, You're eleven eighty seven is going down.
That it was really especially at the price point that
thirteen oh one was. I was just kind of taken
aback by that because all I've heard is how good
the thirteen oh one month two in the Benellium four zone, right,
and where my eight seventy, the two vangguns I took
had no no issues at all. Where I was thinking, hey,

(01:03:53):
these are Freedom Group era eight seventies. The extractors are garbage.
I'm gonna have issues. So and I had zero issues
and then I broke his screw on a Vortex viper.

Speaker 4 (01:04:05):
Read that. I mean, that's not the gun's.

Speaker 2 (01:04:07):
Fault, right, Yeah, yep, I think anything surprising, Like, there
was really nothing surprising, right, most of the dudes that
have been there previously or serious students of the shotgun
and headed together.

Speaker 4 (01:04:20):
Right.

Speaker 2 (01:04:21):
Obviously there was a lot of vain guns there, right,
Mostly instructors are running a vain gun on some sort
for the most part, right, as far as all of
us went, other than the gas gun kids, and then
there was there was one or two that had everything
to include the kitchen sink bolted for the gun and
some of that stuff unbolted from the gun as usual.

Speaker 4 (01:04:39):
Not shocking, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:04:40):
I think I saw like one Knox reco reducing stock
that gave us all the typical Knocks problems, which wasn't
which was every issue known to man. But realistically, most
of the people showed up really squared away with really
good kit from previous learning or you know, these podcasts
or whatever it's been that they've listened to. Because a
couple of guys said that, like, you know, listen to

(01:05:00):
some of the previous shotgun ones. You guys have talked
about it made a lot of sense the things you've
used and I've seen in classes over the years, and
that's that's great. And you know, because the information is
out there now, right, there's almost no reason to come
to class with a questionable gear, right, so to speak.
And while you know things are good, right, there's something
you said for velgrow on air insights and that's it, man, right,

(01:05:22):
And a good gun that's been overhauled, especially in the
pump gun world, you know, with updated extractors, ejectors and
some tuning and that that makes a world of difference
in the longevity life cycle of the guns. I mean,
Cody can tell you he's seen enough beat up guns
come through over the years for overhauls and one of
mine included. And yeah, man, they do get worn out
in a period of time and they need to get

(01:05:42):
serviced like anything else. But it's rare when we see
any of the manual operating guns go down, unless there's
something like an eighty eight Maverick, right, or some of
the five hundred A series of guns that are just
not designed for the abusive stuff versus like a.

Speaker 4 (01:05:58):
Five ninety A one.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
He's a gun, right, the heavier duty, more pro user
mill lle gov gun whatever versus the big box store guns. Right,
same thing with eight to seventy expresses in years past.
You know, guys get them to get a chopped barrel
on it, they're happy, they go for broke, the gun
goes down, right. I think I saw one issue with
a with a side cell and was an older MESA,

(01:06:21):
which didn't surprise me at all when that fell apart.
And of course, but other than that, man, I really
didn't see much bad.

Speaker 4 (01:06:29):
Okay, sounds good, thank you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Yeah, So there wasn't much for me on that end
of things that I really saw some light issues, right,
which is generally end user stuff with not keeping them
tork to the gun specifically well or you know, just
really what I would call half ass lights, right image
fighting candles that were not lights do to turn them on,
But like, did you put batteries in that? He's like, yeah,

(01:06:54):
I'm like when like an hour ago, I'm like, we
get talk you're sixty five blinding lumins death here at
ninety eighty four called they want that bad. So that's
not right, the big, big part of that at that point,
But it was the.

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
Seed you would agree that something that I had to
learn right was fit the gun to you. That's the
reason I just jabbed at my magicul spaces because I
watched some YouTube video and I'm running a fourteen inch
gun with a manful stock, right, and they were like, oh,
you want it as short as possible. Tell I'm choked up,
so I'm six to one.

Speaker 4 (01:07:27):
I've got a long weeks stand. I'm choke up on
the damn thing.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
And see said put two spacers in it, or shoot
my gun. Oh that fits you a lot better, hey, Cody,
Or go go see the people at the truck. Tell
them to put two spacers in this field.

Speaker 4 (01:07:39):
Yep to you.

Speaker 5 (01:07:42):
We have that on site so people can just add
or subtract and we just get right back on the range.
So yeah, yeah, that's cool. And then you got the
Kickies pad to which they developed at the last Thunderstick.
And now that we saw that pad on like half
the guns out there, so it says.

Speaker 4 (01:07:56):
Something like I should have answer royalties.

Speaker 5 (01:07:58):
You should absolutely just wait wait until they sell it
on a production model coming out next year, and then I.

Speaker 4 (01:08:05):
Know, wait wait for the new one that's coming for
the other stock. There you go, I've got three.

Speaker 5 (01:08:10):
Of those right here next to me, So they're awesome. Yeah,
that's great, that's good stocking stuff. First, So I'm with you.
But I was just gonna say the fact that so
many of these people are coming to this class and
they're already switched on with good gear. Yeah, I don't
know if that if that speaks for like the instructors
that are attracting the people or vang Komp that's hosting it,
and you know, we put it out. I did a

(01:08:33):
survey to see like where people heard about us from,
and it was a it was a pretty interesting mix
of people. So, you know, not a lot of people
with like just you know, cheap like like Fisher was saying,
maybe one knock stock. I know of one tapco that
actually made it through the class, which is which is
good for him. He babed that thing along and kept

(01:08:54):
the screws tight. But but yeah, it kind of speaks
to the caliber of people that were seeing, like the
students that are coming this class, and maybe, yeah, maybe
that means we're not casting our net very wide to
get a bunch of that sort of entry level stuff.
With all the gun you know, the gun, what do
they call it mal ninja special stuff on there. So yeah,
I'm not sure, but regardless, we had a great time

(01:09:15):
and that we didn't have any catastrophic failures, which is great,
just you know, normal stuff, cheap ammo getting stuck in
places that it shouldn't. Primer's popping out where it shouldn't,
like fissures illuminated before in the past. And Boone got
to see firsthand was those Italian guns they get, they
get light primer strikes. On day two, it starts to

(01:09:37):
happen and we see it. We can set our watch
by it, and it's just keep that firing pin channel
clean and rotate the campin. You're supposed to rotate that
campin when you clean the bolt. So there's a campin
and you can pull it out and reinstall it in
one hundred and eighty degree different orientation. That way, you
don't lap one side of it in and sort of
wallow that pin the recess out for the fire pin

(01:09:58):
to travel through, because that gets carboned up. And like
Ben from Burretta will tell you, for better or worse,
that gun got a reputation for shooting without cleaning it.

Speaker 4 (01:10:08):
That's not no.

Speaker 5 (01:10:09):
The guns need to be cleaned, especially semi OTO's Yeah,
so clean them, retate the pan. You should be all right,
but we see it. Yeah, day two thirteen oh one's
choke light, primary strikes.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
There's been some other stuff that we've seen that's come
to light with that as well. Not to cut you off, sorry,
the leg got me do the A couple of one
of the agencies in particular that I know that has
them had was having that issue a lot, right, and
they couldn't really figured it out.

Speaker 4 (01:10:36):
Well.

Speaker 2 (01:10:36):
The armor went through the gun and found a bunch
of rough spots and burrs and the firing pan firing
pin channels that hadn't been necessarily clean cleared, tooled out
whatever it is they do, and like he literally had
to get in there when they brush, like and wrap
it with some paper and like get the burrs and
all the chunky stuff out of the bolt channe out
of the firing pin channels. And I'm like, Okay, that's
probably one of the anomaly pieces of the puzzle.

Speaker 4 (01:10:57):
But your other piece of the puzzle is this one.

Speaker 2 (01:10:59):
Ex it's to those guys like, hey man, even though
Bretta doesn't tell you about this in the Owner's Manual,
that I know of, but you need to rotate that
campin right, and that's part of it. And the Gen
two guns especially and the Gen one gun got a
reputation for being a really good gun. I know this
because I taught a course for Brett on their own gun.
We found a lot of the problems early with that gun,
which led to one point five to two guns, which

(01:11:20):
is great. But the one point five guns ran like
a champ till they went no more right, And I
didn't see this TI about five plus thousand rounds, and
it was that specific issue I think with the campaign.
And the gun would lock up because it had gald
or pemed and it would just lock the gun kind
of like the old Remingtons seventy four hundred rifles did
back in the day. So there's a lot of things

(01:11:41):
to the gun. While it is a good gun. Bretta
won't talk to me anymore. I can tell you that
right now. They hate my gods. And it's great because
well I don't care, but because it's like whatever, I
don't care. But you know, because people should understand that
we are going to see things that the average person
will not.

Speaker 4 (01:11:56):
Yeah, and that's the things they should be listening to
and looking for.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
But egos get in the way and prevent that I'm manufacturing,
and they absolutely truly do. And yes, they make a
good gun, is a very good gun. I still have
one or two laying around here and an optima, but
I will tell.

Speaker 4 (01:12:12):
You that they are not infallible.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
Anytime you put a lot of moving pieces together in
a violent gun, it is going to eventually wear and
things will happen, and that's just the nature of the beast.
Stand The gun will give us issues and have wear points,
just like on an AR or anything else. Pieces parts
need to be replaced, gas rings, pistons, campins, firing pins

(01:12:35):
or retaining pins, cutterpins and whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:12:37):
It is right that all these things eventually will have
to get replaced. And you know what's funny, I'm the
guy who doesn't have any problems with my Biretta because
I don't own a thirteen oh one. So there's a
reason I shoot an a four hundred extreme plus. Yes,
because it's basically their high end three gun gun, and
they're high end YEP waterfowl gun and it's they're made

(01:13:00):
for that. And then I also have a t X four,
which is the precursor that they got rid of because
it was so freaking expensive. But that's the one with
all the metal parts in it, you know, crazy talk
quite weird. You know, it's the one that does you know,
as soon as you have the price of a gun
that had to come from somewhere, you know. And but

(01:13:23):
you know, this is all the stuff we figure out,
these things that you know end up happening. The other thing,
I think the reason we don't see some of the
problems is the ability to have rental guns. I know,
as an instructor and particularly it is kind of the
guy who started this thing is a lot of the
students will reach out to me, who are some of

(01:13:45):
those newer ones, and they're like, well, well, I'm thinking
about getting this gun or that gun or doing this
or doing and I just tell him, I go, just
go and run a gun the first year from Bang
to you go through all the classes, you'll figure out
what you want instead of instead of instead of the
guy at bass Pro telling you what kind of gun
you need, why don't you just run a gun from

(01:14:07):
Bang and then you'll figure out by the end I
go and if you really love the gun, Cody, you'll
be happy to sell it. To you at the end.

Speaker 2 (01:14:15):
Like you know, like we told dudes, like ask the
instructors that are coming, email them or email Cody to
get ahold of us because like a lot of us
have a vault full of these guns.

Speaker 4 (01:14:23):
Yeah, and like I.

Speaker 2 (01:14:24):
Know, every year I bring at least three to four
guns with me, Right, I bring an eight to seventy
five ninety gun. Right, I'll bring one or two of
the gas guns out, Like I may bring a thirteen
oh one or an eighty three hundred or a nine
to forty or whatever. Like this year it was a Mosburg,
it was a Remington, it was I mean, I had
like five shotguns with me this year. One Once guys
have a gun, go down. If they do, it's like, here,
just shoot this, you'll be fine. Then when we are done,

(01:14:46):
go take it there, don't miss training value. Just here's
a shotgun, shoot it, load it, and you're fine. It
works pretty much the same one where another run the
slide across the trigger. Anything else will work with you
on if you're not familiar with the manual of arms,
but most all of us usually have at least two
or three gauges with us of various models.

Speaker 4 (01:15:04):
And then you know you have you kind of kind
of a difference in the classes. You know a lot
of stuff that starts falling off in Steve's classes or
the hots classes or the performance ones. My class didn't
have many problems at all except for all these guys's
speed techniques and performance stuff didn't matter when they were
solving force problems that some of them weren't even you

(01:15:28):
didn't have a single shoot or some of the loading
techniques they found out. Oh my high speed load right
loading technique. I'm pointing at it. Everybody down range who
are not you know, when they get on a range
where all the targets are no cover targets, All of
a sudden, you know, some of the cool guys stuff
ain't so cool anymore when we're all laughing at you,

(01:15:52):
you know, while you're doing this, So you're going to
get different stuff out of an event like this. That
or I and see the equipment failures or the gun failures.
What I saw were technique and mindset failures that you know,
how many guys do you think I heard? Like shit,
I've never had to do this before where I had
to worry about pointing my gun at things that I'm

(01:16:14):
not supposed to be. Yeah, I've sat through eight hundred
and thirty two safety lectures and just didn't give a
flying crap about rule two. You know. Yeah, I said
I cared about rule two and rule four, but I
really didn't because I've trained myself to not care. And
then so it's a completely different You get to do

(01:16:37):
a different a lot of different stuff at an event
like this that will show both positives and deficiencies. And
the whole idea I tell guys that come to this
is we're not really here to teach you how to suit.
We're here to teach you how to practice, and we're
here to test your theories like that. You know, this

(01:16:59):
light setup should be really cool until it's not, you know,
or if I mount my sling this way, it'll be
awesome because this influencer I saw them on YouTube doing this,
and then you try to do it and go this,
this doesn't work. Yeah, no, no, that's kind of That's
kind of the thing.

Speaker 2 (01:17:17):
Like even with low light stuff, right and white light
is like teaching guys to make use of the light
using indirect methods so they don't violate rule too but
can still gain information. Right, Right, So all of these
things matter. Daytime and nighttime transition should matter. There's a
time to new things for one aspect of the gun
got it, But there's a time that the translation between
daytime nighttime rules, techniques, safety, whatever it is we do

(01:17:41):
right has to translate to both. So we're not trying
to train specifically for low light and we're not trying
to train specifically for daylight hours, and then putting these
things together that make the most sense in those applications
that when we go train in the daytime, it's like, Wow,
this really works well for either or application. So I'm
not trying to retrain, relearn, or rethink my brain on
something just because the lights went out.

Speaker 4 (01:18:03):
Yeah, we're trying to send these students home with best
practices that they've tested themselves. The determinants the best practice
they weren't told it is, or they didn't see it
on YouTube or you know, somebody with zero experience told
them this work. They got to go out and see it,
touch it, smell it, pick the poop up, you know,

(01:18:25):
step in it, and go maybe I want to do this,
or maybe I shouldn't do this, or maybe this wasn't
such a good idea, And the idea is to send
these students home, and it's why trying to get them
to come back sort of year after year is again,
this is a good way for a single fee to

(01:18:47):
do almost all your twelve gage stuff for now twenty gauge,
but to do all your shotgun stuff and one event
that you can kind of knock everything off and then
make sure that what is in your best practices bag
is still a best practice. You know, year after year

(01:19:10):
you're kind of just making sure that you know, you're
keeping you're keeping your skill set up, You're up on
whatever is new, you're up on Hey, guys, we're starting
to see this problem with these guns. You know. You know,
you couldn't find somebody to say there was a problem
with a thirteen oh one years ago, and now guys
have enough time on them that they're going, you know,

(01:19:33):
it's got all the same. It's a great shotgun, but
it has bugs like all of them. Do you know?
We all know the bugs of each one of these systems,
you know, they and we all have. And you know
what's funny is, you know I get accused of being
fun amish all the time, you know, but it's I've
determined this stuff that works over and over and has

(01:19:54):
been working for deck. Well that's old. Yeah, but you
notice I'm running the same damn gun you know, has
been able to keep up and maintained and doing all
the things for decades of hard use. You know. I
know your new gun is cool, but how many classes
have you been through? Now? When you get your gun

(01:20:15):
that's been through you know, several events like this, You
really know that piece of gear works, you know, because
everything that didn't work already fell off a gun at
Thunderstick two, you know, true, Yeah, yeah, that thunderstick for
you got your shit together, you.

Speaker 5 (01:20:32):
Know, took that long.

Speaker 4 (01:20:34):
Yeah, We're all of it slow well, you know, and
naturally nature of the peace and the type of people
that we are and the type of people we attract.
Nobody wants to say I was wrong. You know that
that is something you really maturity takes, you know, has
to grow into. Nobody wants to be wrong. Nobody wants
to go I made a fifteen dollars piss for investment,

(01:20:57):
or I you know, my soup hero of the Internet
turned out to have given me bad advice or whatever.
Nobody wants to admit that that it's certainly A better
way to do it is go you know what, I
figured this out myself, and that's you know, that's where
wisdom comes from, is these experience of failures, but you've
got to go out and fail. It's you know, sort

(01:21:18):
of my classes, you know that chaotic shotgun class. I
tell guys, my whole goal is to give you a
bunch of failures with no consequences, because the failures I'm
going to give you in this class, if you do
this for real, they're going to come with massive consequences.
So I'm going to give you all those failures and

(01:21:39):
all this experience without having to face the consequences for it.
You know, the same thing comes with the gear, the
training practices. Everybody's class has given these people failures and consequences,
and they're giving them earned successes. And you know, that's
where all the knowledge really comes from, you know, not

(01:22:00):
setting your parroting bullshit you heard on the internet. It
comes out, Get out and do it. You know, put
the sweat, put the blood, put the experience, put the
put the challenges out there. Listen to these instructors challenge
each other on the information out there, and you're going
to be able to pull out what works for you.

(01:22:22):
But you got to just get out and do it.
And it's not free. It takes monetary commitment, physical commitment,
time commitment, and effort commitment. And you know, these events
let you do that in one place and sort of
the social aspect as well, you get to you get

(01:22:45):
to interact with a bunch of other people who are
on the same path as you. You know, everybody's on
this the group path, yeah, who have all been down
the path and had all the failures. So so just
the amount of time you can sit there breaking bread
and you know, the meals, you know, they have these
catered and amazing meals and the you know for lunch

(01:23:08):
and stuff that allow you some some serious time, you know,
to reflect and understand things and meet new people and
meet people that you would never meet anywhere elsewhere in
life and be able to exchange some information and experience.
It's it's a fantastic venue for doing the other. The

(01:23:29):
other good one that we saw this year over the
i think the past couple of years was the amount
of ELI guys that were there, instructors from their agencies
that really came in to either dive deeper into the
programs to their shotgun programs come away with new stuff,
especially like eat on my side of the house.

Speaker 2 (01:23:46):
You know, I had a lot of the guys come
in with meeting with me and Eric on the L
side for low light stuff because like we've never done
anything related to low light shotgun work.

Speaker 4 (01:23:56):
Like I'm like, yeah, man.

Speaker 2 (01:23:57):
So there was a big interest in that as well,
and there was a lot of good takeaway conversations in
that arena as well as others. And it was good
to see the amount of L dudes that we had
there and do debts that were there for their programs,
going hey, we're going to steal a lot of this.
We're like, cool, you paid for it. It's not really stealing, bro.
You know, it's like taking the hotels, bro. You paid
for that, right, The soap towels are yours, man, so

(01:24:19):
you know what you need. But it was good to
see that because it was quite a contingent to share
on the L side, which is really good to see.

Speaker 4 (01:24:27):
So, you know, one of the one of my big
complaints about shotgun stuff, particularly on the el E side,
is if you think about the reality of this, is
most of the ELI stuff who used these guns in
the past more than anybody else, is that they go
to a state firearms substruct certification. And I asked him,

(01:24:51):
I go, how much shotgun training did you get in
the state certifying l E school? Which may have been
eight hours, but it's more more likely four to six hours.
So your agency's shotgun expert, who is entrenched in that
agency for decades of his experience of going to a

(01:25:12):
state school, got four hours of bullshit a of a
of a state mandated program. You don't have the guys,
you know, the guys that are in our circle and
our instructor cadret We went out and got all our
shotgun information and instructional stuff and expertise. It didn't come

(01:25:34):
from the LEE world. It did, but it came from
the true experts out there. It came from the Bill Jeans,
the Scottie reidzs, the you know, those type of people
is where that stuff came from. But we had to
go out and pay for it and get it. And
kind of this new cadre of guys are going, you
know what, we lost all this twelve gage shotgun information

(01:25:56):
and we're really not there's nobody left to get it from.
In kind of the lee. Uh, you know, establishment world,
we need to go get it. Well, now they get
to go out and get classes from you know, Fish
and Gelhouse, myself, Ella, Fritz, the hats, you know, all
of these different instructors. They're getting that information from guys

(01:26:21):
who have invested hard in it, and they can take
that back and we can sort of rebuild the expertise.
I mean, you know, there's no Bill Jeans is around
anymore when there's Louise. Yeah, there's no Louise, But there's
guys like you know, Fish's got it. There's guys like
me and me and l and Eric's share the thing.

(01:26:43):
Bill Jeans punched our instructor tickets for twelve games. You
know that there's something to that. You know that that
we're able to fully pass this on now to a
new generation of what will be the law enforcement subject
matter experts. But they're having to start over. Yeah, we're
getting and the same things happen in the revolver world.

(01:27:04):
They figured out that all these little micro autos don't
work coming out of ankles and pockets and ships, and
they're going, you know, they got this thing out there.
It's a little tiny revolver, but they really work when
they're in pockets and ankles. Yeah, no, you know crazy, Yeah,
we may need to go somewhere and listen to old
people tell us how to do this. And you know,

(01:27:24):
watching the the you know, one of the top instructor
guys from you know, one of the largest agencies on
the planet, you know, sitting there running a red dot
jframe out of a pocket. It's like, yeah, we're mixing
some shit up right now, and we're figuring some things
out and it's great watching and they're doing the same

(01:27:45):
thing again with the shotguns. Is that a lot of
these guys are realizing, like, maybe we shouldn't have gotten
rid of these Yeah, yeah, that maybe slugs and cars
go together better than five five six in cars. You know, weird,
weird that that may be crazy talk. Yeah that you know,

(01:28:07):
next year, we just need a car to shoot up
next year, Yeah, we can get a couple out there.

Speaker 2 (01:28:12):
Yeah, we need some cards to shoot with slugs and
bucket various distances.

Speaker 5 (01:28:15):
That's one of the things, you know, from that. I
did an exit survey with the folks that were there,
and that's one of the things we heard there. There's
a lot of people interested in even more advanced training tracks.
So it's like sixty eight percent of the shooters. I
was looking at the survey results here, so sixty eight
percent of people are like, let's do more, Let's do more,
shoot more, do more fun stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:28:35):
But obviously they weren't in my class.

Speaker 5 (01:28:39):
Yeah, it's just I think that there's so many people
be in there for you know, two or three years
in a row, and they're like, what's next.

Speaker 4 (01:28:45):
Well, that'll be the big thing now is if we
can grow the event, it means we can grow the
opportunities to how many different classes we have because they're
the the the reality is is you got to put
butts into seats to pay for all this, you know,
and the more asses and seats, the more cool stuff
we can do. And once you start offering it, and

(01:29:08):
the thing is like, you may not get that you know, vehicle,
you know class this year, but you'll get it the
next year, and you know, the curriculum will get developed
the first time we do it. You know, it's like
the low light stuff. You know, it's funny because everybody
wants to do that, but that nobody wants to do
the initial work, like, hey, we want to go take

(01:29:29):
a just learn how to do this in the daytime
class before you show up at night and shoot in
the dark. Oh well, I'm advanced. I want to be
able to do that right now. And oh yeah, And
some of this is like you need to go take
the daytime one, digest it, work around it for a

(01:29:51):
year of what you've learned, and then when you come
back you'll be ready for doing this live, you know.
But everybody wants to jump right into the advanced thing first,
and and you know all of us will tell you like,
you know, oh I want to do shoot houses. That
stuff is dangerous if you're not with the right people
running this or or participating, it's very dangerous. And you know,

(01:30:14):
we need to have the thing figured out on how
to do that. But I mean, I think we're every
year delivering a better product.

Speaker 2 (01:30:24):
What'd you have, Boone? What was your takeaway as the
is the dude taking courses? What was your big big AHAs?
So big AHAs for me?

Speaker 1 (01:30:33):
So I come from a background I shoot, I say,
I loosely say this. I shoot pistols and air fifties
for a living in a dry fire space with threequel.
I don't seenulators and stuff. I have zero almost zero
time on a shotgun. Compatibly shot a lot of cliff pigeons,
shot a lot of bird shot, a lot of beer
cans in the pasture. But as a student of the gauge,

(01:30:56):
I feel like I took away a lot, especially from
march Ricky. I scored on his call. I know that
as a basic call, but I felt good about myself
being able to manipulate the gun right. One thing I learned,
and you guys can make sun of me all you
want for this. I didn't know you could unload a
remy tonight seventy without running the pump.

Speaker 4 (01:31:19):
When I learned that, it was like if I switch
went in my head. That was like, oh this is cool.
I hate you.

Speaker 1 (01:31:28):
And then like one of the big things that I
that I learned is like we talked about equipment, and
I'm kind of a gear person. I work in that space,
so I look at gear a lot, and it's not
just important of having a cool gun. Yeah, I've got
two guns done up by Vang with nightpul stocks and

(01:31:48):
Sarah Coach and all that other stuff. But like I
said earlier, the equipment fitting you, I wouldn't have known
that that gun didn't fit me until somebody said, hey,
Steve pulled me on the line and said, hey, that
gun doesn't sit you.

Speaker 4 (01:32:03):
Try this.

Speaker 1 (01:32:04):
Yes, I was t rexing on a fourteen inch gun
and it just wasn't pleasant, right. And when Steve said
shoot this, when I shot it and he goes, okay,
next time, there's a break.

Speaker 4 (01:32:15):
So tell them you want two spacers.

Speaker 1 (01:32:17):
So Cody's crew, which I want to give talks to
Cody's crew real quick, everybody from Cody down. I probably
talked to Cody eight or ten hours over the last
eighteen months between projects and Thunderstick and everything, and Cody,
I appreciate your customer service.

Speaker 4 (01:32:30):
I appreciate your whole team.

Speaker 1 (01:32:33):
And then going to So I had Fricky's first three blocks.
I had Fisher and Gellhouse for Instro. The low light
Coach was the second night, and then I had Zach
and David for I forget what their class was efficient manipulations.
I think laser smooth operator. I probably took the most

(01:32:56):
away from Mark Frickey number one, learning how to run
that gun properly and keep it loaded, even on a
basic understanding level. And that's what like talking about Thunderstick.
I'm going to tell anybody here, if you on an
eight seventy, you on a five ninety, you own a
thirteen oh one, you own a combat style shotgun, buy

(01:33:17):
your ticket to Thunderstick worth it.

Speaker 4 (01:33:19):
Regardless of your level. If you're brand new, you'll get
you'll get in the classes you need. If you are
Tier one operator level, there's going to be stuff your level.
But learning shotguns zeros with the red dot.

Speaker 1 (01:33:33):
I've never shot shotgun with the red dot before, an
understanding how to zero it with luck shot versus slug.
What bird SHOT's going to do at various distance, especially
in guns that were Vang versus not Vang. Right, we
all those of us who have shot a vanggun with
bird shot, No, it's going to hold a really tight
pattern compared to guns that aren't Fisher and gellhouses low light.

Speaker 4 (01:33:58):
Really it was. That's only my second little that class
I've ever taken.

Speaker 1 (01:34:01):
I took a basic carving and handgun one a couple
of years ago, and I learned about manipulating it. I
learned about how to again, how to set it up,
make sure your light's in the correct position, make sure
your hands, you're doing the right manipulation with your hand
and you're activating that light and then when you're running
the gun. I don't really remember that much of Zach

(01:34:24):
and Cagle's class, to be honest with you. I remember
being high ish around count for Bird, but it was
a lot of talking about how to load the gun
and those guys one running a semi auto in a
civilian setting, like Darryl said, Zach's moore of a farmer
type versus cagele who runs at fourteen seventy every day

(01:34:48):
for doing raiding.

Speaker 4 (01:34:50):
Meth houses and shit.

Speaker 1 (01:34:52):
Learning how to keep those guns loaded and how to
run them. The only thing I wish I would have
done is I wish you would have kicked that one
a little bit earlier so had some of the more
movements down, so I was spending less time focused on
that during Gellhouse and Fisher's block.

Speaker 3 (01:35:09):
And then also I don't know if you had I
don't know if you had an opportunity to shoot some
flight control through a van gun that creates black.

Speaker 4 (01:35:17):
Holes, so mine aren't flight control optimized.

Speaker 1 (01:35:21):
But whatever Federal low recoil buck we were shooting, I mean,
it was like I was shooting slugs up to like
fifteen yards.

Speaker 4 (01:35:29):
I get the sack.

Speaker 1 (01:35:29):
So I can imagine flight control being stupid type, which
I mean is good, right, And we and some of
the classes I was in, we talked about that, like
this nine pellet slier, Like, hey, guess what every every
farmer instructor says it.

Speaker 4 (01:35:43):
Every bullet that leaves that gun has ten lawyers attached it.

Speaker 1 (01:35:47):
Right, What every saying is every time you pull the
trigger on a shotgun that is not eight or nine
nine ter bullets leaving the barrel, understanding what your pattern,
whatever your load is, and your gun at whatever it did. Since, right,
if you're shooting buckshot at twenty yards, you're gonna have
to understand that there's going to be some flyers.

Speaker 3 (01:36:08):
And conversely, you may not always want the tightest pattern possible.

Speaker 4 (01:36:15):
Crazy talk.

Speaker 3 (01:36:16):
Yeah, well no, this is yeah, this was a Fisher thing.
I remember having a long conversation with them. It's good,
good talk. Cody as the facilitator, as the guy that's
also renting out guns, do students have the ability to
rotate the guns they're renting? So can they start with
an eight seventy, to go to a five ninety, to
go to whatever, just to figure out what works best

(01:36:37):
for them.

Speaker 5 (01:36:38):
Yeah. Absolutely. When they register, they have the opportunity to
choose their preferred platform five ninety or eight seventy, and
as the class progresses, you have if something changes and
they want to try something out, they're more than welcome
to do that. So it's a small fee. It's one
hundred bucks to rent it, and then if you wind
up buying a gun from us, we give you that
one hundred dollars back, So it's it's and a lot

(01:37:00):
of people want to buy their gun. They're like, hey,
I want that gun that well I was shooting. You know,
we had them numbered and lettered this year. They're like,
I want can I get M six? I had M six,
I want to buy that gun. I'm like, sure, no problem,
it's your gun, got it. So yeah, there's a lot
of rotating so people get to try a lot of
that stuff out, like you say, the magpul stock, that
reqail pad, the different lights, the optics. You know, hold

(01:37:21):
of Sun donated the sights and lights this year for
the rental guns, so they all had all of a
sudden red dots or green dots and then lights on them.
So or you had the opportunity to put a light
on it when it was time for night class. So yeah,
it was it was it was neat to see it.
And yeah, a lot of folks, you know, every year
we have at least one person like can I get
that gun? Please?

Speaker 4 (01:37:42):
That one and then you.

Speaker 5 (01:37:43):
Know a couple of the folks that are like, you know, hey,
it's like Bulky was saying, get the gun, rent it,
see what you like, what you don't like, and then
have Vang build it up. So we had a few
folks that did that after this course as well. So
you know, that's one of the benefits, the main benefits
of us doing it is seeing what works and what
doesn't and what shakes off of the guns on day two.
And that's that's how van Kov developed our stuff out

(01:38:03):
at gun Site Training Center, you know, thirty five years ago.
That's how we started developing this stuff and turning bird
guns into people guns, you know, so long ago. So
that's why it's so cool to have thunderstick in the
backyard here once a year at a great facility with
great instructors, you know. And then the wilderness is always
going to be involved in Airtis is always going to
be involved because those are you know, two of the
folks that are sort of of the same mind that

(01:38:26):
Darryl got involved early on, and we're you know, we're
going to be there every year to support shotguns.

Speaker 4 (01:38:31):
Yeah. Great people.

Speaker 3 (01:38:33):
So before we get into final thoughts, final plugs, because
I think we covered a lot of great information so
and just so much good shotgun information, I'm going to
say my favorite thing is that I say with every episode,
if I can remember to say it, you, the listener
of the viewer, make sure you're supporting those sources that
you found to be beneficial. If you like what these

(01:38:54):
guys had to say, find them on social media, find
what company they represent, give them like, give them follows.
If they're sharing content that you especially appreciate, something that
helped you understand something better, make sure you share that video.
Because this is gun centric YouTube or all these social
media platforms are not our friends. This probably will never

(01:39:15):
be on YouTube. This is going to have to be
on a separate thing because right now I can't upload
on YouTube. I've been I'm not banned, but I'm getting
my videos removed regularly, and I have a lot of
restrictions in the process of finding a solution. But the
audio version definitely is going to be is definitely going
to be released, but most importantly, make sure you're given

(01:39:36):
those legs, those shares, those subscriptions, because those algorithms do
not work in our favor. And there's a possibility you
might watch this video and none of your friends have
seen it and there's something that's stuck out to you
that really meant a lot. Or this can be a
good motivator. You can share this specific video to share
two people that might want to go to this go

(01:39:58):
to this course for me. Shotguns, lever guns, revolvers, whether
it's a single action or a double action, there is
some serious fulfillment when you gain mastery you can truly enjoy.
Just so I blame Darryl for this right here. This

(01:40:18):
is not a new gun by any means. It's not
a new model.

Speaker 4 (01:40:21):
It's new to me.

Speaker 3 (01:40:22):
But doing dry practice with this run and speedloaders, it
is an absolute blast doing that with a shotgun so
many it's so fulfilling. If you haven't give given this
kind of if you have not given this stuff a chance,
you got to because as Darryl said earlier, a lot

(01:40:44):
of this really does translate. If you master that double
action press that translate to other guns and efficiencies, and
it's also it's something to.

Speaker 4 (01:40:54):
Have a little bit of pride in.

Speaker 3 (01:40:56):
So with that mind, I'll go to Steve for final
final plugs.

Speaker 4 (01:41:03):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (01:41:04):
You know, obviously great event, great to be a part of.
As always, I tell guys, right, if you're gonna get
serious about a shotgun, you know, look no further than
this event. Then look outside of the event for others. Absolutely,
one thousand percent. There's a lot of great places out
there that are still doing some good shotgun work. Obviously,
I tell guys you don't look at those that support
us like Vain Wilderness. You know, absolutely the premier companies

(01:41:28):
for anything that goes in this gun. If you're running
the gasers, right, ritis is obviously another one. And then
if you start looking elsewhere, right, they just look for
what you need, right, you know, really look at the programs,
go have fun with the gun. Take this thing out.
It doesn't take much to maintain proficiency.

Speaker 4 (01:41:44):
You know, two.

Speaker 2 (01:41:44):
Boxes of twenty five a bird shot man and you
can get a lot of reps in once you've learned
things at these events or whatever classes you go to take.
It requires you to grab two boxes of twenty five
and go to the range one day. You know, fifty
rounds and a lifetime of good practice is always great.
And don't hesitate to try different buckshot new things with them.
You may be surprised because these guns are a lot

(01:42:05):
like rifles. They all have a recipe or flavor that
they particularly like in those and so that is always
a good thing to go and find for your gun.

Speaker 3 (01:42:14):
And where can people find you?

Speaker 2 (01:42:16):
Oh, on the internet, somewhere central content, in your basement
and in my basement, always working on working on guns
and projects right now for the coming year, you know,
Settle Concepts dot com for the website, Sentinel Concepts on
Facebook and on the ground cool cool.

Speaker 3 (01:42:32):
And how has training been on the instructor's side, how
cloud has been going?

Speaker 2 (01:42:38):
It's right, I'm on my I'm on my downside, which
is great right now because I'm like shooting deer for
the next three months, so I really don't worry about
it too much. It was slow in parts of the year.
It was picked up in big partners. It's just a
very weird year right again, pulling students talking about them,
you know, not a lot of extra money, not a
lot of extra time, life, marriage, kids, of getting of age,
of sports and events and just general life getting in

(01:43:00):
involved in this and that's okay, right. We see these
cycles like everything else through the years, and it's going
to be this way for another year or so. It's
still going to be like this next year. Sign up
for your classes early, you know, get in there because
the instructors have made commitments to be there across the board,
regardless of who they are. So support the dudes that
you want to support. Buy your Ammo and stuff now
while you can, and you know, ultimately, hey, if it's

(01:43:21):
a Christmas gift idea, ask for a class, tell the
people find you Christmas presents and think, hey, I want
to go take a course with ABC whoever, or I
want to go to Thunderstick right, or I want to
do this so cool, sign up, take that course, get
it as a gift certificate whatever it maybe don't know,
but do those things cool.

Speaker 3 (01:43:39):
So with that in mind, Cody, do you see a
gift certificate for Thunderstick somewhere in the future.

Speaker 5 (01:43:46):
I just put them on a spot so we can
put that up there. Yeah, that wouldn't take too much
to get one.

Speaker 4 (01:43:52):
On the site.

Speaker 5 (01:43:53):
We don't have dates yet, so so yeah, but but yeah,
I'll put a gift certificate up there for worth it.
In the tuition next year, you'll probably got eight point
fifty to offset the cost of the facility. And it's
two and a half or three days, three full days, yeah,
three full days of training for eight fifty with six
different instructors, and then we'll have competitions and vendor demos

(01:44:16):
and lunches included because it's sponsored by the folks, so
you don't have to drive anywhere on the range, like
Boone is saying, a great time to hang out, get
an hour and a half with people, to relax in
the air conditioning, and get really good food inside of you.
So that's all included.

Speaker 3 (01:44:30):
That's awesome. That's awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:44:31):
So Cody finds plugs.

Speaker 5 (01:44:34):
So yeah, I appreciate you having us on to talk
about shotguns again. Anytime people nowadays want to talk about shotguns,
it's awesome. So you know, we talk about you know,
I'm talking with Mad Pig about doing like a manual
Action Preservation Society. We want to have like an event.
So so yeah, we're keeping that sort of in the
back pocket for now. But Thunderstick has been a really

(01:44:55):
great way I kind of talked about it how Vang
developed our stuff gun site and going there and watching
the classes and seeing what breaks on their five day classes.
So it's a great way for us to get back
to that and see it. It's an honor for us
to be able to facilitate that with these instructors. This
cadre is amazing and it's growing every year. You know,
We've got Zach and David into the fold this year.

(01:45:16):
Hopefully we'll get some of the guys from Green Ops
in next year as well. Now bring some of that
younger blood in to help push this on, you know,
to the next generation. So yeah, vancomp is pushing the
art of the fighting shotgun, whatever that may be. So
the sum out of stuff is coming into the fold
for us. You know, Biretta's the chrome mining stuff. We've

(01:45:37):
got the production tooling for that now, so we've proved
that that stuff works. And so the Veang stuff is
coming to Italian guns next year. We're going to have
a full We just we have one of every tool.
I need ten of every tool to push it out
to the public. So once the tooling comes in, we'll
open that up. So go to Vangcomp Dot com to
check that out. Vancomp dot com is where you'll find
all the Thunderstick stuff too. I just uploaded a van

(01:45:58):
Comp the Thunderstick I'm at twenty thirty five full coverage
video on YouTube. I dropped a link in the chat
here and you can just search Thundersticks. I'm at twenty
twenty five. It'll come up on YouTube for now. We'll
see if how long it stays up, because our fourteen
year old videos have been getting pulled down a bunch too.
But I digress to support van comp, to support Thunderstick,

(01:46:18):
you just go to vancomp dot com and check it out.
We've got ready to go shotguns on there. We've got
the services where we turn your shotgun into one of
our shotguns on there, the barrel system only safeties followers,
you know, the discrete carry cases, a lot of things
that were developed and you know, came to market with
a lot of this instructor cadre and things we don't

(01:46:39):
know that are coming yet. So check it out vancomp
on all the socials. I'm Codycody at vancomp dot com.
Shoot me an email and I'll get back to you eventually.
And yeah, thank you guys for being interested in shotguns.
We really do appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:46:53):
Awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:46:54):
Darryl. Well, you know, one of the things that comes
up with this is it's hard to convince people how
well a lot of this stuff translates to other things.
If you want to fix your shooting stance with a
long gun, shoot twelve gates for a few days. You know,
we end up baby and stuff. You know, you want

(01:47:17):
to make your trigger press really good with your you
know nothing trigger whatever, good, Go shoot some double action
revolver quite a bit. You know. Learning how to manipulate
and use these guns is a thing, and it translates
well to what most people like or use. Plus, it's

(01:47:39):
never bad to have more skill at variable things that
you may have to pick up someday. So, you know,
this has sort of become a bit of a lost
s art. We're bringing back and people are figuring out.
The shotguns blow stuff off of things. You know, they
work really well and they you know, one of the
best quotes I ever heard was, it's a niche weapon.

(01:48:02):
It's it's a niche that everybody has. You know, they're
incredibly good home defense goods guns, but it's it doesn't
but they don't work the way everybody thinks they do.
Would you close your eyes and point this will show
you what you need to do to defend your home
and your family with a very publicly acceptable gun. There's

(01:48:23):
nothing wrong with that of knowing that, you know. So
you know, we're we're developing this. We're making the inroads
into bringing this stuff back, to keeping the information alive
and to grow the information. I mean, how much gear
is getting tested out there. We never thought we'd see

(01:48:44):
the day when well designed recoil pads didn't have to
be cut in somebody's you know, gun shop. That kickis
is just kicking that stuff out. You know that you
can actually get guns that are that are you know
Vangkomed that are having this equipment on him, bringing back
equipment that works, having gear that works that we know

(01:49:05):
works because it's been hard tested by a lot of
different people. So it's a great way to do this.
And like I said, this is going to a grown up,
grown up effect. You know, you know, you were out
of the grade school cafeteria and they're cutting your prime
rip and it's a good thing. So as far as

(01:49:26):
for myself, pretty hard all in with a f R.
If it doesn't have to do with American Fighting Revolver
dot Com. It's on a sideburner for me and I
kind of mixed this event in except Cody takes a
lot of the headache from Peek on this one. Somebody,
you know, Yeah, I just need to show up and

(01:49:47):
teach and kind of make sure, you know, it kind
of hurt and wrangle instructors. But otherwise, so American Fighting
Revolver dot com. Uh, we're growing into the largest revolver
events in the country. We just did Revolver Fest on
the East Coast, which was absolutely freaking fantastic, especially having
as many manufacturers on board who who came away and went,

(01:50:12):
oh my god, we didn't know that we could do this.
You know that we have access to this, so that
that's making some in roads. We got revolve around up
coming up at gun Sight, and then we are already
got date set up and we're getting ready to go
on a single action event that is not going to
be cowboy action. It'll be defense minded and woods and

(01:50:37):
outdoor stuff that apparently, and this has been new for me.
Some of this has been an adventure of you know,
now that I'm at work right now, I mean I'm
at the you know, one of the biggest horse shows
in the country. All of a sudden, I'm around a
lot of people who actually use single action revolvers every
day because are around twelve hundred pound animals on horses,

(01:51:00):
and it's like, oh my gosh, there's actually some really
practical good stuff for this. So that'll be another push
that I didn't expect us to be in that we're
developing stuff on. So these are all great events. Like
I said, you get to go to high quality buffets
with you know, great chefs serving up fantastic meals, and

(01:51:21):
you know, Thunderstick is one of the original ones of those.
You know, we kind of came up with this when
we moved Revolve Around up from Dallas over to Gunsite,
and this was to fill a void and it's become
its own thing and it's been fantastic, and I got
an incredible cadre of instructors, and we got an incredible
you know host with with bang and you know, this

(01:51:42):
is not to be missed. On a one, you know,
one event a year, you can get a lot in
so it's a lot of bang for the buck and
I hope you know, more people take advantage of it,
especially now, especially now, especially now, especially that we've worked
a lot of the bugs out. Yeah, you know, you

(01:52:04):
don't have to be guinea pigs anymore. We pretty much
got this dow ye. So yeah, you know, and and
and you know, great food, great people, you know, great
weekend to shooting and learning, a whole bunch of stuff
that that's all good.

Speaker 3 (01:52:22):
And you mentioned American fighting revolvers where you could be
found currently making content.

Speaker 4 (01:52:27):
Yeah, because we were kicked off the Internet before everybody. Yeah. Yeah,
we were the leaders of having to do everything ourselves
because meta and YouTube hate us. I imagine that the
guys with a thirty two revolver got launched.

Speaker 5 (01:52:41):
Off of it, right, high capacity revolvers.

Speaker 4 (01:52:45):
Yeah yeah, oh my god, there's six of those in
the thirty two. We need to completely cancel these idea. Yeah.
So yeah, that's uh, that's pretty much. I still have
a dB shooting adventures up, and then I'm still a
little involved on the with Hardwired tactical shooting, which has
been kind of given over to Kinggle and his guys.

(01:53:06):
So letting the kind of younger working cops take that
over has been which has been great. You know, it
is because now that they've taken all that stuff and
there and actually applying it every day out in the field.
You know, David's on the busiest meth team and the state,
so you know the UH you know, which is great

(01:53:29):
to have these guys, you know, be able to hand
the reins off on the UH you know, basically the rifle, pistol, performance,
high speed load RAG stuff. And I'm more focused now
completely on normal Americans as Pat would call them, normal
Earth people, you know, is being able to have this
stuff that normal Earth people can take advantage of experience

(01:53:52):
from highly experienced people rather than taking classes and learning
stuff from people who have one class than they do,
which is you know what a lot of which is
out there in the firearms training world right now. A
lot of people who have one or two classes more
than their students do, as opposed to you know, two

(01:54:13):
or three decades more than their students do, which is
how it's supposed to be. So yeah, it's all good, yep.

Speaker 3 (01:54:21):
Cool boom.

Speaker 1 (01:54:24):
So I would say, if you're interested in fighting shotgun, obviously,
I want to say thank you to the instruct entire
instructor category SYNTAC Consulting, Mark Rickey obviously, Steve with Sentinel
Concepts dB, Eric Galhaus, David Cagle, is that costs obviously.
Thank you to all of the instructors. You know you

(01:54:46):
arek here if you're listening, thank you.

Speaker 4 (01:54:47):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:54:48):
Cody, Thank you to your entire team for everything during
that event you made fighting with the shotgun somebody who
is a little bit intimidated at day one feel a
little bit more comfortable about having a van comp a
seventy six foot that way to over the.

Speaker 4 (01:55:05):
Double buck in the knowing how I could do that.

Speaker 1 (01:55:10):
Obviously, if you're interested in fighting shotguns, look at Vancom's
website and look at all of the different instructors they've had.

Speaker 4 (01:55:17):
If they've got a class near.

Speaker 1 (01:55:18):
You, I would encourage you to take it, especially the
ones that I've experienced with. I know Gell House is
teaching some here in Oklahoma in about a month, and
I said, I told everybody once my birthday's Bonnie Gelhouse ticket,
and I kind of want.

Speaker 4 (01:55:33):
To talk about this.

Speaker 1 (01:55:34):
Earlier, Daryl kind of hinted at it. We're only in
the second or third generation as far as instructors of
the fighting shotgun being mainstream.

Speaker 4 (01:55:42):
Bill Jeans will be our Buck. Scottie read and I asked.

Speaker 1 (01:55:46):
This question at Thunderstick. Hey, if I want to learn
more about the fighting shotgun, where.

Speaker 4 (01:55:52):
Do I go?

Speaker 1 (01:55:53):
And it's not watching anybody on YouTube or Instagram or
any of that. Like, you can still buy Bill Jeans
book on Amazon and eBay. You can still buy stuff
by Louis Arbuck on eBay. Look back at those ogs
because fighting shotgun, really the methods haven't changed. Like, the
methods are still going to be the same. You're still
going to have to be efficient at manipulating the gun,

(01:56:15):
keeping the gun loaded. That kind of thing excited me
on Facebook under my name. I'm also gonna plug cool
fire here. Cool Fire Trainer is what I do for
a day job.

Speaker 4 (01:56:27):
We make you a two power of recool kits. I
love that.

Speaker 1 (01:56:29):
Tuesday, I've got one right next to me. Thank you,
Thank you, Cody. We make recool kits not for shotguns,
but for air fifteens and handguns. Shout us an email,
give us a call. Sometimes I'm a hard dude and
call it Cody. I'm a hard dude to get on
my phone.

Speaker 4 (01:56:42):
But if you want to talk to me, call me.

Speaker 1 (01:56:44):
I'll answer any questions. You've got, and then I'm gonna
plug Vang. I was kind of curious about Vang. Cody
specifically helped me with a special project of Attack fourteen
a couple of years ago. I bought it with a
brace and it was all goofed up because somebody just
shoved the screw in there. Cody and Rich were able
to get me figured up. And now I've got two

(01:57:07):
Vain guns with a I'm gonna order Centinel barrel for
I'll go ahead and show my pounds puppy off bye.
I'm going to tell you, ohp here in Oklahoma, like
I'm sure your big gun shots in your area get
police trade in. I picked up a vintage nineteen seventy
loose steel receiver wing Master for three hundred bucks. I

(01:57:28):
put chisel stocks on it. You don't have the chiggle.

Speaker 4 (01:57:30):
Stock on it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:33):
By a police trade in a seventy for whatever, three
hundred fifty bucks on gun broker or whatever. Have Vang
do the barrel work, send the barrel to send the
whole gun to Vane. Cody and his teamwork magic. There's
a reason Vang stilling business to me. In my opinion,
they make the best fighting shotgun and make the best
modifications for the fighting shotgun.

Speaker 4 (01:57:52):
Thank you, Yeah, Coach. Codys guys were were the absolute
superheroes of this They were the instructors at this event
are able to focus on the students because Cody's guys,
who his team, who doesn't get the recognition, is doing
a lion's share of all the logistic work that allows

(01:58:15):
us to just show up and do our things. It's
like going to a fabulous rock concert that didn't happen
without the roadies, right, and the Bang roadies are awesome. Yeah,
they they make they they make this event great for
the students because the instructors can absolutely focus on the

(01:58:36):
students because Bang's guys are doing such a great job
doing all the other stuff that nobody wants to do.

Speaker 3 (01:58:44):
So right, good stuff, good stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:58:48):
If I get the bank tattooed, does that get you
into Thunderstick for free next year?

Speaker 5 (01:58:52):
Careful? This is the this is the internet.

Speaker 4 (01:58:55):
They they'll do the Internet.

Speaker 3 (01:59:00):
And also, if you guys don't mind stick around for
a second, I have a question for you offline, So
I'll end the stream and then bring it up to
you when we're offline. But if you happen to be
in the behind the scenes place, cat Lady and Spencer,
you're going to hear what I'm going to ask, So
Big thanks to the panel. Wonderful discussion. This is one

(01:59:22):
of my favorite topics because this is something that I
feel there's not enough attention to. It's shotguns are so
disregarded for some reason, and I think it's due to
just it's it's ignorance. And for me, I think my
first shotgun class was twenty seventeen with double lot hots
and what a great experience because I was always ar

(01:59:42):
ar is it? Then I took this class and went, oh,
I want a shotgun for duty use now because I
really like I just like the capability and I like options.
I'm a big fan of options. So I have shotguns,
I have rifles, I have handguns. I have all these
cool things and they're all the pieces of a big,
big puzzle and there's not one right answer. And the

(02:00:04):
better well rounded you are with all this stuff, man, here,
that's that's turning into a more complete package. And that's
that's what I strive to become. Big thanks to so Big,
thanks to the listener of the viewer, but Big Things
to the sponsors, Lucky Gunner, Filster Walter, and also our
Patreon subscribers. If you go to Patreon dot com slash
Primary and Secondary, you can help support the network. If

(02:00:26):
you don't want to go through Patreon, go to Primary
and Secondary Primary and Secondary dot com slash forum and
right there is a place for network support. Now, I'm
going to need to change some of the benefits now
that we don't have these broadcasting on YouTube, and so
most likely what's going to happen is these are going
to be almost entry level now, where the behind the

(02:00:49):
scenes stuff that was a higher level. All we have
now is behind the scenes. Practically, there still is a
behind the scenes and there's kind of a general admission,
but since it's not going to be on YouTube, I'm
going to need to adjust. Let's see here, we do
have seven hundred and thirty six different Facebook groups covering
all kinds of topics. It's awesome to have all that

(02:01:11):
Facebook stuff, but also they threaten to remove us as well.
On the forum, we have this nice little backups that's
very much underutilized, but it is there for your use.
As a matter of fact, all the content that I've
created is for your use. I am happy to be
a facilitator of this. Unfortunately, though, YouTube is taking things

(02:01:32):
down on a daily basis, so it is dwindling, but
at a very slow rate. I have a thousand something videos,
but it's still Yeah. This is episode forty five, and
so fourred and four hundred and forty five episodes and
most of them are over two hours long, some of
them are eight Summer six only a handful or an hour.

(02:01:55):
So this one was too awesome discussion. Absolutely love it.
So that is pretty much. I'll end the stream now
and then I have to ask these guys that question offline,
so that is all. I will talk to you later.

Speaker 5 (02:02:08):
Thank you, not thank you, guys,

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P&S ModCast 445 - Thunderstick Summit AAR 2025

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}P&S ModCast 445 - Thunderstick Summit AAR 2025