P&S ModCast 448 - Foundational Concepts in Reloading - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Me for a minute.

Speaker 2 (00:01):
It was it was so on this end it's working.
Let's see if it's actually functional on rumbles, and.

Speaker 3 (00:11):
It is. That's exactly what it is.

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Maybe, see this is your problem with working with all
these different apps and you're not sure what does what.

Speaker 4 (00:32):
I'm just happy to be here, man, I am too.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
Yeah, I know there's a button I'm supposed to press
on rumble. Oh well.

Speaker 4 (01:06):
Did so? Did YouTube look to this whole whole podcast? Yeah?

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Yeah, I thought they did. Yep.

Speaker 4 (01:16):
Yeah, difficult, I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
I just have never understood that because everybody else is
still doing gun stuff. Yeah, what what's the difference here?
I don't understand.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
Good question.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
I mean, I've got people that are that are taking
apart guns and they're shooting guns, and they're teaching people
how to shoot guns, and they're loading stuff. We're just
sitting here with what five bright shiny faces, jack and
our jaws. You guys get nuked, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 (01:46):
And after ten years of doing this, one of the
things I found out was because I had links to
companies that sold either accessories to firearms or sold firearms.
That's what ultimately nuked me. And I found out that
after they removed it.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
But some of those companies that the accessory companies have
a YouTube channel as well.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
Yep, yep, it doesn't make any sense. No, it's so tiresome.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
And so also with that mind, yeah, those those links
ultimately hurt me. Well, as of right now, I don't
have any links to share. I have zero sponsors for
the podcast, so we're in the free, we're in the
clear for that. So that's kind of good.

Speaker 3 (02:34):
Not good for me. This costs me money, but that's okay.
Now I do have Mark might be showing up anytime now.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
Also have another buddy who does He brought up casting
and I thought, oh casting, Wait a.

Speaker 3 (02:48):
Minute, waited Gary.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
But the basic, the basic topic for tonight is more
talking about the foundational aspects of reload to include creating
your own projectiles and then also comparing that projectile performance
to what the go.

Speaker 3 (03:08):
To options are.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
And having Steve here just makes sense because he does
that whole AMO thing.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
And Dwayne's in stereo.

Speaker 5 (03:20):
Yeah, it says right on my label.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
Dwayne in stereo.

Speaker 2 (03:26):
So my background's blaw enforcement been doing it since last century.
Primary Secondary has been running for eleven years now, doing
the podcast for ten took off. The last couple of months,
a lot of stuff has been happening in the background
on my on the personal side. I I'm tempted to
address it right now, but I'm not going to. Some

(03:51):
distractions have occurred and my motivations have gone in the
toilet to do these episodes, and I thought, you what,
I need to get back into this, and because these
these were always a good time, and these were always
something that I look forward to.

Speaker 3 (04:06):
So here we are, and.

Speaker 2 (04:10):
Any second now, I'm going to see a couple of
people pop in. So with that in mind, let's start
with some backgrounds with you guys.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
Dwayne, Hi, would you.

Speaker 5 (04:21):
Like to go relevant to this episode?

Speaker 3 (04:23):
So overall background and then relevant to this episode? Absolutely, okay,
Dwayne lip tech, I.

Speaker 6 (04:31):
Am in stereos in stereo.

Speaker 5 (04:34):
Yeah, it says right there, very fancy title I've got
this time.

Speaker 3 (04:38):
I'm not that smart on computers.

Speaker 5 (04:39):
That's you can see as evidenced by my in stereo label.

Speaker 4 (04:43):
But we're for.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Magpole background in Marine Corps.

Speaker 7 (04:47):
I've been doing the shooting, hunting, casting, reloading things.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
Since I was twelve, so that was a.

Speaker 7 (04:54):
Few years ago, and I have done a lot of
experimentation over the years, both in saving money to the
absolute en degree when I was a grocery bagger trying
to fund my competition AMMO budget by casting myself and
voating on a Lee one thousand.

Speaker 5 (05:10):
Progressive that kind of rattled its way through up to.

Speaker 8 (05:14):
Now, and then also kind of going back and looking
at the weight ins we're done back in the day big.

Speaker 7 (05:21):
Into the Shark's black powder cartridge. Stuff went just from leberguns,
including weird.

Speaker 8 (05:28):
Stuff like forty five seventy five in the eighteen seventy six, and.

Speaker 7 (05:32):
Always looking to learn on casting, reloading, bullet lobs, all
that stuff.

Speaker 5 (05:37):
I make all that stuff myself and just play around
as a.

Speaker 6 (05:40):
Look a mad scientists.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
And one of the things I think is going to
be cool about this is so many people they just
buy the bulk Ammo.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
They're going to go the sporting goods store by the
box of fifty, by the box of whatever.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Don't put much thought into this, And there's an absolute
niche for this, and especially if you already have the equipment. Yeah,
well right now, maybe components might not be as easily
found or as as inexpensive, but.

Speaker 7 (06:14):
Well, you're you're hitting on probably not to jump into
everybody else's introt but like you're hitting on one of
the biggest fallacies of.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
Her loading is you're not.

Speaker 5 (06:23):
Going to save money.

Speaker 9 (06:24):
You're gonna shoot more for the same amount of money
that you spend, but you're gonna spend the same amount.

Speaker 5 (06:28):
You're just gonna spend it.

Speaker 10 (06:29):
On more components and loaders and powders and primers.

Speaker 3 (06:34):
And stuff like.

Speaker 5 (06:34):
You can spend the same amount, you're just gonna get issues.

Speaker 3 (06:36):
A lot and also time investments for sure.

Speaker 6 (06:40):
Yeah, that's not free.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
Steve twenty seven years law enforcement, retired eleven years ago
talk at the State Academy Firearms. Helped rewrite the program
up there for the academy and post academy training. I
was on a that I hunted down marijuana fields with

(07:03):
the DEA for a while. Got into commercial loading after
right after I retired. So back in fifteen, local company
wanted me to come in and run their company because
they were like a side gig for them. So I
ran their company about three years. About three years had

(07:24):
moved a little bit farther east, too far the community.
They were going to sell out anyway, and so we
couldn't come to an agreement. So I started my own
company up here in Goldendale, Eastern Washington. High Doesert Cartridge Company.
Been doing that for since twenty nineteen and been loading
since I was a kid back in the eighties. Probably

(07:45):
nothing as heavy as these guys bullet casting. I've never
done that. Yeah, It's all been just you know, buy
the different components and put them together and work up
your loads and do it that way. Course, pistol and
rifle stuff.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
That's kind of me actually, though, what you just said
reminded me of a topic that even if you're not casting,
projectile selection that's a big deal. Yeah, so that will
be also interesting to talk about.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
Okay, how did you figure out what to go and
what direction and all that stuff?

Speaker 11 (08:23):
Yeah, Gary, Gary Hughes, I've been kind of around the
industry my whole adult life. I started in business when
I was eighteen years old, a working a gun counter,
working a cash register.

Speaker 6 (08:38):
In a gun store, and I've never.

Speaker 12 (08:40):
Done anything else.

Speaker 13 (08:41):
I've pretty much just done the whole guns, body armor, silencers, NFA,
machine guns, reloading, all that kind of stuff my whole career.
So I've been handloading in some form or another now
for various reasons. As Dwayne alluded to, I've gone through
all the same phases. I started doing it to save
money and try and do it more. When I figured

(09:03):
out I couldn't save money, I.

Speaker 6 (09:04):
Was just doing it more for the same amount of money.

Speaker 14 (09:07):
And that's kind.

Speaker 13 (09:09):
Of evolved in a few different directions to me where
now I load for a little different reason than a
lot of people do. But I do a lot of it,
and I do a lot of bullet casting these days
and things like that too. So about thirty two years
I figured out I've been doing this now, so a
little bit of time.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
So with that in mind, I also recognize that you've
started to do that whole selling of bullets.

Speaker 14 (09:34):
Yeah, I've started casting some specialty.

Speaker 13 (09:36):
Bullets that not a lot of people make, mostly for
percussion revolver stuff, conical soft lead projectiles for percussion revolvers,
or for muzzleoaders, things like mine balls for fifty eight
caliber and fifty four and fifty you know, some of
the kind of more odd ball specialty, low volume type
stuff rather than just like bulk you know, nine millimeters

(09:59):
amo what everyone's doing. Yeah, I'm just trying to do
some small volumes on specialty.

Speaker 6 (10:04):
Stuff like that, Yeah, we just sell bullets for percussion revolvers.

Speaker 2 (10:11):
And also another thing that I've noticed is you're you've
jumped in with both feet with single action revolvers and then.

Speaker 14 (10:22):
Yeah, and that's and that's also related to the loading.
Because I'm trying to kind of simplify things down.

Speaker 13 (10:29):
What I've really done, my my philosophy on things right
now is I've done some of the more high speed,
ultra modern, cutting edge, state of the art things, and
I've found that, you know, like a lot of our
society and things in general, it's highly dependent on supply
chains and availability and things like that. So what the

(10:52):
things that you see me into now are things where
I'm taking a step or two generationally back in technology,
but things that I can support myself with my current situation.
So that's why I look at things now like single
action revolvers, handloading for single action revolvers, percussion revolvers, black
powder cartridge reloading, black powder bullets, you know, those kinds

(11:16):
of things, because those are all things that given my
current position, you know, living out here on the ranch,
I can supply a good portion of that myself and
make pretty much all the components I need for that
except for cartridge cases. And I'm a stockpilor guy, so
now I'm stockpiling cartridge cases, and I'm making pretty much

(11:37):
everything else, or in the process of making, you know,
getting set up to make everything else.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
Yeah, and there's I think there's really something to talk
about later on in this is the the amount of
reward you receive personally. This is this is achievement to
be self sufficient, to be able to do this, and
you I think there's a level of greater enjoyment versus
opening up that case of nine to Milo and shooting.

Speaker 15 (12:03):
You know what.

Speaker 2 (12:03):
This is something that you created yourself. This is something
all inning is that much more self sensius if this
is your.

Speaker 13 (12:08):
Primary you know, your occupation, your hobby, you know, those
kind of things you have to always you.

Speaker 14 (12:13):
Know, I don't know what the cycle is in my life.

Speaker 13 (12:15):
It varies, but every ten years or so, I get
super bored with something and I move on to something else.

Speaker 12 (12:20):
You know.

Speaker 13 (12:21):
And that's just how I keep interested and invigorated in
it and keep wanting to do it, because I'm not
just selling air fifteens all the time, or selling you know,
one particular thing, silencers or you know, whatever it is.

Speaker 12 (12:35):
I kind of.

Speaker 14 (12:37):
Bob and weave like Trump in a speech, you know.

Speaker 13 (12:39):
I mean, I move around and do different things, and
it keeps it fresh, and it keeps it exciting, and
it keeps me engaged.

Speaker 12 (12:47):
And that's how cop you'll see me.

Speaker 13 (12:48):
I mean, one day I'm talking about ak's, the next
day I'm talking about percussion revolvers. And a lot of
people think there's a sort of a crazy conflict there.
But if you've lived my life, there's no conflict whatsoever.

Speaker 2 (13:03):
And you definitely are living according to your the direction
you want to go. That's that's awesome, especially with the ranch,
especially how many times you almost died trying to establish that.

Speaker 14 (13:16):
And just today a couple.

Speaker 3 (13:18):
Yeah, you just can't win.

Speaker 6 (13:21):
It's fair, it's not fair.

Speaker 2 (13:23):
So speaking of enjoyment and appreciation of signal actions, we
have Chauncey.

Speaker 4 (13:31):
Yes, and he just waves that's it.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, you don't that everybody.

Speaker 13 (13:38):
No.

Speaker 4 (13:39):
So my dad is the one who got me started handloading. Uh.

Speaker 16 (13:45):
Dad was a is a he's an obsessive handloader, but
he's he's a bultaction and riffle guy.

Speaker 4 (13:52):
So he got me started on that.

Speaker 16 (13:54):
I was about twelve years old when I started started handloading,
and that was a big mistake on my part, Beau,
because after he realized that I was fully capable of
loading my own cartridges, but I was responsible for loading
my own cartriages. So I should have rode that gravy
frame a little longer, but I didn't. But He's he
was never really a handgun guy. He always had had

(14:18):
had nineteen eleven's in revolvers around, but they weren't something
he loaded for. So I started out loading for rifles
just for not necessarily precision.

Speaker 17 (14:31):
But.

Speaker 16 (14:34):
We were always looking for perfection from our hunting rifles,
so it was in the same vein as reloading for
precision rifles.

Speaker 4 (14:42):
You know, we were looking.

Speaker 16 (14:43):
For the best accuracy with the best bullets. And like
you guys said, you're not saving money here, You're you're
you're looking for perfection. But whenever I got a little older,
I got really into handguns. And obviously, if you want
to know, if you want to shoot forty five cult

(15:04):
or or you know, forty four special forty four magnum
in high volume, then you kind of need to reload.
And if you want to get the most out of
your of your ammunition, then you had reload. So that's
what drove me to it was the need for shoot
more volume and the need to tailor my loads to
my specific needs. But anyway, I do not cast own bullets.

(15:29):
I buy a lot of commercially cast bullets. I'm got
a lot of rim rock and bullets because cast bullets
obviously are achieving jacketed bullets, so that's primarily what I use,
or cast bullets. I do load some jacketed bullets like
I'm today, I'm packing a Cult Super thirty eight and
I'm shooting jacketed bullets out of that. But we're pushing

(15:52):
them pretty hard. But yeah, and growing up, there's not
a whole lot else to do for fun on a ranch,
you know where I'm a rancher, working cowboy, day worker,
and I do this stuff for my own personal enjoyment.
For the most part, I do do some gunsmithing, but

(16:16):
not a whole lot, you.

Speaker 4 (16:17):
Know, as much as I can keep up with.

Speaker 16 (16:19):
And other than that, just handloading shooting, do a lot
of single actions, and also shoot a lot of double
action revolvers.

Speaker 4 (16:28):
And then the the.

Speaker 16 (16:30):
The curse of bottom feeders I carry.

Speaker 4 (16:33):
I carry one of those here and there, so.

Speaker 16 (16:37):
I kind of it's not all inclusive, but it's pretty
inclusive environment around here for amount of handguns and rifles.

Speaker 1 (16:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:46):
Anyhow, so, having seen some of your content, and actually
a lot of your content, how often are you using
any factory loaded demo or are you purely reloading yourself?

Speaker 4 (17:01):
So I've actually used some of Steve's MO recently. I killed.

Speaker 16 (17:06):
Well, I believe it was four four hogs in one
day with Steve's three hundred grand XTP load from a
forty four mag uh and that that that's a that's
an impressive load. I did not expect to get that
kind of performance at that velocity out of that three
hundred grand XTP, and man I had I had full

(17:27):
penetration with everything. Never recovered a bullet and judging by
the exits on those pigs, I mean the bullet expanded
as it should have.

Speaker 18 (17:37):
Uh.

Speaker 16 (17:38):
But aside from from Steve's AMMO and uh Ted McIntyre's
m O from from Lost River Cartridge, don't shoot a
lot of factory AMO. That's the only two that I've
used recently. Other than that, it's everything's handloads cool.

Speaker 3 (17:57):
Now, I just got a message from Mark. He's on
on his end, but I don't see him in RQ.

Speaker 1 (18:06):
Hmm.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
Yeah, Mark, if you can hear me.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
I don't see you here. I don't know reset exit,
come back, Scott background. So as and as as I
did with with Dwayne background and pertinent background to the
whole reloading scheme.

Speaker 15 (18:30):
Well, I only heard bits and pieces as I was.

Speaker 19 (18:33):
Dealing with the connectivity, trying to get through whatever I
had to to get on.

Speaker 15 (18:40):
Can everybody hear me? Because I certainly don't have a
school setups as you guys do.

Speaker 3 (18:45):
No, don't you sound good?

Speaker 15 (18:46):
Okay good? That's the first time. So my background, Matt
and I.

Speaker 19 (18:55):
Were introduced through law enforcement. I did twenty years, retire
a little over twenty years retired. Out of that, worked
as a firearms instructor and was generally interested in firearms anyway,
and so that translated into becoming a firearms instructor and
doing some things with the agency that I worked with.

(19:18):
But prior to that, I was interested in reloading and
my passion as Old West guns and trying to figure
out how to make them work. And that's taken me
into casting and cowboy action.

Speaker 15 (19:35):
And buffalo rifles and.

Speaker 19 (19:38):
Yeah, so just to piggyback on the Chauncey's answer as
far or question, as far as how much factory ammo?
I shoot twenty two rim fire and shotgun and that's
about it.

Speaker 2 (19:54):
And in the past, a few months ago, Scott and
I talked about and I've talked to all of you
guys about potential forty five to seventy and similar episode.
I still see that on the horizon because I think
that would be a fun discussion. But I remember, I
don't okay, I can't remember the terminology. We all met

(20:16):
east of my house in the canyon, and you had.

Speaker 3 (20:19):
A really really cool converted rifle. Yeah, and I can't
what was that.

Speaker 15 (20:24):
It was an original eighteen sixty eight trapdoor fifty seventy.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
And that was just so cool to shoot, especially at distance.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
Yeah, just yeah, And I had no idea how to
We're that much into this kind of stuff.

Speaker 19 (20:39):
The cool thing about that particular rifle, so a lot
of the trap doors when you get past so there
was the eighteen sixty six model, the eighteen sixty eights,
they can be made up through eighteen seventy, but when
you get into the eighteen seventy model, a lot of
the guns themselves and everything about him is new manufacturer.
The eighteen sixty six and eighteen six actually made out

(21:01):
of Civil War leftover parts. And the lock on my
rifle is stamped eighteen sixty three. And you can see
where the liner is in the barrel where it was
changed from a fifty eight caliber to a fifty So
it's got some serious style points to it.

Speaker 2 (21:15):
Yeah, yeah, and it was just so cool just to
shoot and yeah, yeah, I liked it.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
I liked it. So there's a really go sigon if
it could talk. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
And so Mark is still trying to get here, and
the listeners are familiar with Mark. Other is entered the
studio right at the very least.

Speaker 3 (21:34):
We have audio. I don't think he has video. Mark,
are you there?

Speaker 6 (21:39):
I am here?

Speaker 3 (21:40):
Hey, So you don't have video, but you do have audio.

Speaker 6 (21:43):
So what do we do with the video? How do
I get it?

Speaker 3 (21:46):
That's a good question.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
You might have a you might have a setting that's
broken inside your computer or your phone.

Speaker 6 (21:51):
It's probably me it's broken. Are your lights on?

Speaker 18 (21:57):
Yeh?

Speaker 6 (22:00):
I's in a dark room.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
So Mark, right now we're just doing backgrounds and then
backgrounds and then how it's.

Speaker 3 (22:08):
Impertinent to reloading.

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Okay, and so it's your turn, okay, even though we
can't see you, all right, fine, I.

Speaker 6 (22:16):
Am Mark Fricky.

Speaker 17 (22:19):
I've been a farm junctor for forty eight years. I
have run American Farm Training Tactics, which is my private company,
for thirty three years.

Speaker 6 (22:32):
And I have been reloading ammunition since nineteen seventy five.

Speaker 17 (22:37):
I've been doing it a bit. I enjoyed reloading. It's
very fun, relaxing to me. I find it very therapeutic.
And of course I'm still working on my wadcutter book,
and I've got a whole bunch of different loads that
I've loaded up, and I have forty five alone windecutters
and verty especially I've handloaded different winecutters with different power

(22:58):
chargers casting so it's there.

Speaker 6 (23:02):
So many had any idea how to get this video on?

Speaker 3 (23:05):
It might take a reboot of whatever you're using. All right, Well,
something just happened.

Speaker 2 (23:13):
Whatever you just did, now it's I think what it's
saying is your camera's off, and before it was thinking
your camera was on? Is take the lens cap off
the camera? Oh no, that's what it was.

Speaker 6 (23:26):
How about that simple little technology?

Speaker 3 (23:29):
And you're here and here.

Speaker 2 (23:31):
Hello Ray, nice and I'm going to go back a
couple of years ago thinking about wad cutters and then
hearing this this weird guy who's all about writing a
book about wad cutters.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
That's just silly.

Speaker 2 (23:47):
And then I learned, oh no, this is not silly.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
There's some cool stuff for this.

Speaker 17 (23:55):
It is a is a lot of it's a lot
of fun research that I've done and learned so much my.

Speaker 6 (24:00):
Know from it, what works, what doesn't work.

Speaker 17 (24:04):
Then all that is are equal, and there's veloses that
you need to make, and sometimes you have as much
velosses you think you do.

Speaker 3 (24:14):
It's been awesome.

Speaker 17 (24:15):
I've had I've had to relearning mistakes that we can
talk about and I've done over the years and a
couple real recently.

Speaker 6 (24:23):
Oh all right, that's me.

Speaker 3 (24:26):
Cool.

Speaker 2 (24:26):
Cool, So, uh, if I can have you guys, if
you're not talking, have you go on mute because I'm
getting some feedback from a couple of different people and
so we had just hit the mute button so we
don't have that background. And one thing I am guilty
of is forgetting to turn off mute and start talking.
And there's it's kind of like Mark with the camera.

(24:47):
Yeah you see me talking, but there's no sound. You
hear Mark talking, but there's no no visual cool group
of people to talk about this topic. Let's start with
lessons learned. What are some of the what are some
of the things that you guys picked up? I know Gary,
Gary and Dwayne have talked about the cost benefit ratio.

(25:09):
It just doesn't exist. What are some of the what
are the some of the lessons that you've learned doing this?
What are the benefits? Would have been the negatives with
this kind of question? Also, it's more of a shotgun.
Whoever wants to answer, go for it and then add
on and then we'll see where this takes us.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
So for for.

Speaker 2 (25:27):
Those listening that don't reload, have never really considered it,
what are some ways that you could convince them to
start or convince them Yeah.

Speaker 3 (25:34):
I don't bother, this isn't worth your time. And Dwayne,
I see your lips are moving.

Speaker 2 (25:42):
And let me also tell you I have not I
have noticed you've been changing your title and they're they're
really funny.

Speaker 3 (25:47):
So yeah, accomplished ballroom answer. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (25:53):
Anyways, So the the biggest thing to me is that
I can I can have whatever I want, matter how
esoteric and weird. That may be whatever experiment I want
to do whatever. You know, if I decide that I want.

Speaker 10 (26:08):
To shoot a three hundred and fifty grain belt or
try to stuff a four hundred into a forty five
seventy five.

Speaker 15 (26:12):
I can do that.

Speaker 10 (26:13):
If I want to do three hundreds in the forty
four mag and run them at sedate velocities for entertainment value,
I can do that or whatever you want, right and
I can run super small bullets and paper patch them
up to just underbore diameter and kind of an obsuration
obsuration into sharks.

Speaker 5 (26:32):
Weird stuff that you cannot buy anywhere, but.

Speaker 7 (26:35):
The tickles an inch or meets a need or real
or perceived that you have, you can do it.

Speaker 6 (26:42):
You make whatever you want earlier.

Speaker 20 (26:44):
On or accuracy and modern ammunition for that for that matter,
and low SDEs and ees's and things like that.

Speaker 21 (26:56):
So it's not just the weird stuff and the the
cowboy spectrum.

Speaker 7 (27:02):
But you know, if you if you want to launch
a two twelve eld X out of a three hundred
win May twenty nine to fifty, it's entirely doable.

Speaker 3 (27:10):
It's safe pressures, and you don't need three hundred r C.

Speaker 13 (27:15):
I'll add on to that that I never run out
of AMMO. I never don't have AMMO. I always have AMMO.
I can load AMMO the night before if I have to,
if I need it the next day.

Speaker 6 (27:26):
Or you know whatever.

Speaker 14 (27:27):
But I am never ever out of AMMO.

Speaker 13 (27:29):
And I'm never ever at components because I stockpile components.

Speaker 15 (27:33):
So you and me, both, me both, But it's a
lot easier one thousand components than it is to store
a thousand rounds of AMMO.

Speaker 13 (27:43):
Yeah, I mean, if you can just look at stockpiling
five thousand primers in each in each size, that gets
you a lot farther to keep that stuff as components.
And you know, frankly, the same thing for lead. One
of the things I enjoy.

Speaker 14 (27:56):
About Thank you cast bullets are is if I cast a.

Speaker 13 (27:59):
Bunch of bullets and it's for something that I'm super
into at the moment, but then I changed my mind.
I melt that shit into something else. You know, it's
a totally versatile, totally usable component. If you stock primers
in the same size and you try to you know,
for a long time, I tried to carry inventory on
a lot of different powders because I was, you know,

(28:20):
chasing the accuracy thing or the precision thing, whichever you
prefer to call it, and I wanted to have a
lot of different powders to try. But nowadays my powder
inventory looks a lot more like I used four powders,
and I have a lot of them, you know, just
from a supply standpoint, which has actually really served me
well over the last you know, five to seven years.

(28:43):
I've had components on hand when nobody else could get them,
and I've been somewhat immune to the.

Speaker 14 (28:47):
Price fluctuations in that market.

Speaker 13 (28:50):
So just the versatility that gives you, like Dwayne said,
you can do things other people can't do. You can
shoot guns that other people can't shoot because they can't
make ammo.

Speaker 14 (29:00):
I'll give you a perfect example seven nine two kerts
D and K.

Speaker 13 (29:07):
Finally, you know, finally, we have an actual STERM Gaverar
forty four clone that you know, mill cert people can
buy in this country and you can get the guns.

Speaker 12 (29:16):
But guess what.

Speaker 13 (29:18):
PPU over in Serbia is the only one that makes
ammunition and components.

Speaker 14 (29:22):
And now you can get the guns, but you can't
get the m.

Speaker 13 (29:26):
You know, And I've had the foresight to buy a
whole bunch of jacketed eight millimeter bullets in that you know,
bulletweight range not too long ago, and a whole bunch
of brass, And so now I can still shoot my
storm gaverar when you've got a bunch of people with
brand new guns that they can't fire, you know.

Speaker 14 (29:44):
And so it's just it makes you immune from a
lot of.

Speaker 13 (29:49):
Volatility and the firearms and ammunition market with supply and
demand curves and everything else. It just really makes you
a little more immune to those kind of things. And
that's one of the things I've always enjoyed about it.

Speaker 3 (30:01):
Have you done that with five four five as well?

Speaker 14 (30:04):
Yeah, I've got more five four five than probably Ukraine.

Speaker 2 (30:07):
Cool, But also you have the advantage of with your
also projectile casting.

Speaker 14 (30:15):
Yeah, and you know, there's there's cartridges.

Speaker 13 (30:17):
There's cartridges that makes sense for and there's cartridges it
doesn't you know, if you want to shoot twenty two
center fires at really high velocity, bullet casting is probably
not the answer, you know. I've looked at suaging my own,
you know, because you can make jacket a bullets at home,
and it's probably actually something that I'll get into at

(30:39):
some point. But really, if you're if you're dedicated enough,
not even I won't even.

Speaker 14 (30:45):
Say wealthy enough, because it's not.

Speaker 6 (30:46):
It's not like there's a huge.

Speaker 13 (30:49):
Financial barrier here to entry that the average person can't overcome.
It's really a time investment. It's an education investment. And
you know, I mean, you can start making your own
jacketed bullets for probably what three grand you know, for
a press and dies and you know things to do
it and make your own jacketed bullets and do whatever

(31:09):
you want. Casting for me is just a simple way
to do exactly what I said I like to do earlier,
which is I've taken a couple steps back generationally in
order to be fully independent of that supply chain. I
don't want to be at the mercy of whether, you know,
whatever powder company has decided they're selling all their powder

(31:31):
to the government this year, you know, or whatever. I
want to be able to make all of that stuff
for myself. So that's the hump that I'm on for
reloading right now. It's self sufficiency. Hell, I've got thirty
sheep out here in the field. The only reason I
have them is to make black powder. Bullet loot, you know.
And now I Dwayne don't get a kick out of this.

(31:51):
I got a bunch of wool back from our mill,
and I'm having them press pads for me. And I'm
going to start a stamping wi myself too, out of
my field. So I'm getting bullet lubed from these sheep.
I'm getting wads from these sheep. And who knows, maybe
I'll figure out a way to turn them into black patters.

Speaker 17 (32:12):
To you.

Speaker 12 (32:12):
I don't know, but you can.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
I can take this. Anyone might even figure out how
to roast them too. Maybe you know, let's have us
down the road, right, Yeah, we do do some of that.

Speaker 12 (32:23):
But it's, uh, that's what really appeals to it for me.

Speaker 14 (32:26):
It's it's and you'll go through phases with it.

Speaker 13 (32:29):
I got into it because I couldn't afford on you know,
basically minimum wage gun store wages at the time.

Speaker 14 (32:37):
I could buy a box of five hundred.

Speaker 13 (32:40):
Cast bullets and shoot a lot more for the money
that I had available. But back then, you know, it
was two dollars for a bux the large pistol primers
or whatever it was. But you started it for different
reasons that I got into it for a perceived savings, which,
as I'm sure everybody here will point out, is not
really a say means it's just more shooting for the

(33:02):
same amount of money if you.

Speaker 12 (33:04):
Don't count your time.

Speaker 14 (33:06):
And that's why I got into it.

Speaker 13 (33:07):
But the reasons I've stayed into it as long as
I have have evolved over the years, be it calibers
I want to shoot that you can't get you readily
available AMMO for, or just wanting to do more of
it yourself and have that satisfaction. I mean, the first
time you take a big game animal with a cartridge
you loaded is a pretty pivotal event in a person's life,

(33:28):
you know, a gun person's life, and then the first
time you do it with a bullet that you cass
is a totally different thing, you know, So it's it's
satisfaction as well.

Speaker 6 (33:43):
Dwayne, did you somebody else talk?

Speaker 2 (33:45):
It looks like Dwayne was showing something off. Is that
made from the ejection seat you have used?

Speaker 22 (33:51):
No, se Gary's point there, that's a cast bullet ied
cast with loom that I made and you know, paper
patch the things, and you know it's a black powder cartridge.

Speaker 7 (34:03):
That's you know, running a five hundred and twenty seven
green paper patch bullet at twelve hundred feet per second
and forty five seventy.

Speaker 3 (34:12):
Works really really well.

Speaker 6 (34:15):
Let's see a single shot.

Speaker 9 (34:17):
Yeah indeed, yeah, yeah, So definitely definitely boor rider to
get it loaded out that far.

Speaker 21 (34:23):
There's only a quarter of an inch of that projectile
in the cartridge casing and it runs out at the
final diameter of the patching is four forty eight, so
it actually will.

Speaker 8 (34:34):
So you can run ten or fifteen of these things
without having to stop to wipe. And Scott knows when
you start running black powder rounds that are patched too
tight or that are greasers that run, you know, you
start getting filing and it's like, before you know.

Speaker 5 (34:48):
It, you can't get.

Speaker 15 (34:49):
Into the chamber.

Speaker 18 (34:50):
But some original bullets were awful, awful small and patched
up to blow bore diameter, and then black powder's meeting
that slugs that bullet right it up to boor diamers
and mashes it into the lands and grooves and you get,
you know, sub two moa accuracy with a bullet that
starts out twenty thousands or twenty five thousand smaller than

(35:12):
groove diameter.

Speaker 6 (35:13):
It's kind of crazy.

Speaker 15 (35:14):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (35:17):
Most of my reloading has all been hanging.

Speaker 17 (35:18):
I have relivered rifle three eight, two, two, three, forty five,
seventy and thirty thirty, but very little of that. Most
almost all mine has been handgun. And I started back
up because the comp in the Air Force Station on
Glama Amma was expensive, but I could get components, and
I bought the Lee Jr. And set it up in
my little apartment and started reloading so I could go

(35:41):
want shoot competition matches. And so I've loaded thirty eight
special up for like I said, forever and ever and ever.
It's the most cartter uploaded. You're mentioning Gary about being
self sufficient on it. One thing I will tell new
shooters if you're going to go into reloading, even if
you don't need them right now, buy primers. Buy them
a lot, a lot of them, and just store properly,

(36:03):
and they will last you forever. I've got primers that
are twenty five thirty years old and they still work
just the same way with the dry environment I live
in in Arizona, So.

Speaker 6 (36:14):
But you've got to have the primers.

Speaker 17 (36:15):
And that is one way the government can shut us off,
is that they cut off the primer supply.

Speaker 6 (36:19):
Because reloading primers.

Speaker 17 (36:20):
I guess it is possible because I know a friend
who said he did it during the depression. He actually
would beat out the primer and then take the anvil out,
rebind it and use match heads, striking her match heads
to make his own primers. He would load five rounds
at a time, redoing his own primers.

Speaker 6 (36:41):
And I just shook my head, like, this guy's incredible,
and I.

Speaker 17 (36:46):
Believe him because he was an actually an engineer on
the Manhattan Project.

Speaker 6 (36:49):
He was one of the engineers.

Speaker 17 (36:50):
He design the exploding bolts that were used on the
Manhattan Project. So this guy was phenomenal. He gave me
his reloading manuals. As he got older was put into
a care facility, and he had documented everything from the
nineteen twenties that he had been loading up every single round.
It was amazing to look at powders that don't exist anymore.

(37:13):
Just absolutely amazing the knowledge base that guy had. So
I got into it because I needed to be able
to more than I could afford it to buy factory
am That's why I got into it. And then I
got into it because it was very lacky like I said,
and you can custom load to what you want to do.
And that's what I've been doing with this project from
the wood Cutter Book that I'm the custom loading.

Speaker 6 (37:32):
Trying it out, different types of ammunition, some stuff.

Speaker 17 (37:36):
I want to talk to you guys on later on
during this but that's why I got into it, and
that's why I continue to do it. I have a
multi stage Dylan. I never use it. I still use
my nineteen seventy five Jr. For almost everything I do
because I custom load. I don't do large batches and
I want to make sure I've got the precision, and
I found the Dillan. I really got to concentrate or

(37:58):
I screw up and get primary end to power in
or something. I know people use them all the time,
but I am not one who does.

Speaker 6 (38:05):
That very well.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
And as a guy that's carrying five shot snubbies regularly,
you need to make sure that your AMMO actually works.

Speaker 3 (38:13):
Kind of important it is.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
Indeed, Now, Gary, didn't you try something with making primers.

Speaker 12 (38:20):
Oh yeah, I'm a I'm a goofy some bitch.

Speaker 1 (38:22):
I can.

Speaker 13 (38:23):
I can reload primers and I don't. I quit reusing
the cups though, because that was a little bit. I mean,
the whole endeavor is foolish and super labor intensive and time.
It's not efficient in the slightest, but it is entirely possible.
And I even bought dyes to punch new primer cups,
so I no longer reuse primer cups. I do reuse anvils,

(38:45):
but I punch my own new primer cups out of
aluminum flashing.

Speaker 12 (38:49):
That I buy at the Ace Hardware and uh put
put priming compound in them, and and put new anvils
in them, and they work. So they are gross if
they're crossed.

Speaker 1 (39:00):
So what's your So what's your compound that you're using?
Want to actually secret spices type of thing.

Speaker 13 (39:08):
No, you can buy the mix. You have to buy
it in separate components and then you can mix it.
There's a site called twenty two Reloader and he actually
sells priming compound mix. So it'll have a little baggy
of sulfur and a little ba baggy of charcoal and
a little baggy of little glass balls and saltpeter, and

(39:28):
you know, basically it's black powder with super fine bead
blasting balls in it that make it ignite against the.

Speaker 14 (39:35):
Anvil, so I buy that in bulk and.

Speaker 12 (39:38):
Then mix it as I need it.

Speaker 14 (39:40):
It's not something I do regularly.

Speaker 12 (39:43):
It's something I did.

Speaker 13 (39:44):
To prove I could do it and it was feasible
because me with reloaded primers would seem pretty damn awesome
against you with no primers. So that's why that's why
I did it. I primarily do it with small pistol
for thirty eight special, but they do work. I can

(40:04):
punch small and large primer cups now they don't work
that awesome. And rifles they're just a little shorter, if
I remember, I remember what it was, rifles shorter, large rifle,
large pistols shorter one of the other. But they see
too deep on a large rifle just a little bit.
So I'm still playing with the recipe for you know,

(40:25):
seating depth and everything for large rifle.

Speaker 14 (40:27):
But yeah, it's you can go down as far as rabbit.

Speaker 13 (40:30):
Hole with this as you want, buying lead wire and
copper tubing, and you know, I mean to do it
all yourself.

Speaker 12 (40:39):
I think the only thing that's really feasibly.

Speaker 13 (40:40):
Out of reach to do yourself is probably drawing brass,
you know, making your own cartridge cases, which if you've
got a layer, you could actually, you know, do that too,
if you want to make them.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
Mag Pole's doing that now it's polymer.

Speaker 13 (40:56):
Yeah yeah, but yeah, no, I've gone down that fluish
rabbit hole, and I don't recommend it until you're super bored.

Speaker 2 (41:04):
See notice Dwayne didn't comment on that because it's actually
happening along with the waffle maker.

Speaker 6 (41:17):
Yeah, Gary, I'm just curious.

Speaker 17 (41:20):
I'll never do this. But how thick is you're illuminum
for the cups?

Speaker 6 (41:25):
Do you know?

Speaker 13 (41:26):
Off the top of my head, I don't remember, but
it's standard aluminum flashing.

Speaker 12 (41:29):
That they sell in two thicknesses at the hardware store.

Speaker 13 (41:32):
I've tried them both, and some people like I make
my own percussion caps too for percussion revolvers, and you
can use coke cans for that or in my case,
red bull cans.

Speaker 1 (41:42):
Trying to make the gauge that would be Yeah, I
think what gauge? That would be? What I can I
use gauge?

Speaker 2 (41:51):
I think it is.

Speaker 12 (41:52):
I can go find it. I've got it under the lathe,
but it's it sucks.

Speaker 6 (42:01):
To do it, frankly, And I see.

Speaker 3 (42:03):
Sandy's wandering around. She doesn't want to be part of
this conversation.

Speaker 12 (42:06):
I tried to get.

Speaker 14 (42:07):
Her to do it, but.

Speaker 13 (42:10):
She's been texting her daughters and she has no time
for my reloading foolishness.

Speaker 14 (42:15):
Typically, let's see, I.

Speaker 12 (42:23):
Go to find my flashing.

Speaker 1 (42:25):
I'll show you the punch.

Speaker 12 (42:27):
It's kind of cool.

Speaker 6 (42:29):
All had to tell you. I'm impressed, very impressed that
you're making your own framers. That's awesome.

Speaker 20 (42:34):
Standard gauge is twenty foul and contractor gage is thirty
nine flash and.

Speaker 13 (42:39):
You could use you can use either. So this is
a I don't know if you can can see that
two age.

Speaker 1 (42:47):
Is about thirty thowel. Yeah, those are.

Speaker 13 (42:50):
The actual punches that they sell this twenty two reloader outfit.
He sells the punches for both small and large, and
I've got them ball and then this is how the
priming compound comes.

Speaker 12 (43:04):
So it's separated into its individual.

Speaker 13 (43:07):
Components, and then it also has a sealant that you
can put on it, which just helps keep it in
the cup.

Speaker 6 (43:15):
That's impressive.

Speaker 12 (43:17):
So yeah, you.

Speaker 13 (43:19):
Can you can pretty much go down this rabbit hole
as far as you want, and I've gone down some
paths that I've found are totally possible. But not very practical,
like I said, and I've got that flashing here somewhere.

Speaker 14 (43:35):
But I've tried both of the commercial.

Speaker 12 (43:37):
Or both of the thicknesses that are.

Speaker 14 (43:39):
Commonly available at the hardware store, and they both do work.

Speaker 13 (43:43):
And for percussion caps, I use two aluminum canned thicknesses
was what I found worked the best.

Speaker 17 (43:53):
Do you find any difference between rifle primers and fystal
primmers when you loaded them.

Speaker 12 (43:58):
I've primarily done it for handguns.

Speaker 13 (44:00):
And small pistol with like thirty eight special, and I've done.

Speaker 6 (44:06):
It just to see I fit with.

Speaker 13 (44:08):
Fire with thirty thirty and thirty eight to fifty five
and also with forty five seventy and they did all
fire well. Like I said, the primer seating depth for
large rifle, the actual dimension on the cup for large
rifle and large pistols a little different. For a small
pistol small rifle, I believe it's the same, but for

(44:29):
a large pistol large rifle it's slightly taller. And I
don't remember which way it was off the top of
my head and half lickered up, but I believe it's
the cup size that the punch makes is for a
large pistol, which is really where it makes sense, and
then you have to play with the seating depth to

(44:50):
be able to get it to work right in large rifle.

Speaker 12 (44:53):
But it's totally doable.

Speaker 13 (44:55):
You can do it, and it's even not that expensive
those punches. I think we're in the thirty five to
fifty dollars range for each size. But it does represent
a huge investment in time. And let me tell you
that taking those little micro dosing measuring cups that they
sell for supplements and stuff and fill in primer cups,

(45:17):
you either are already married or don't like women. But yeah,
it's totally doable.

Speaker 17 (45:29):
Well. Denny Hanson the former editor of SWAT magazine. He
was Sheriff Devan. We've been buddies for years.

Speaker 5 (45:34):
I know.

Speaker 17 (45:34):
He made his own two to three bullets of twenty
two brass and swaged them down into it and had
really good luck with it and some great accuracy, and
he posted at a SWAT magazine on how he did
it and how he was getting the accuracy results from it,
and that was to me, was impressive that twenty two
could be made into that despite simply judging out and

(45:58):
reforming it.

Speaker 13 (46:05):
So yeah, you take fired twenty two long rifle brass,
and you wash it, and they sell the dies to
extrude that into a bullet jacket, and they make a
bullet mold so you can mold the core that you
insert into it, and you can swage.

Speaker 12 (46:20):
I think they.

Speaker 13 (46:21):
Even make adjustable weights so you can vary the weight
of those.

Speaker 14 (46:27):
But that's something that eventually I'm probably.

Speaker 13 (46:29):
Just going to buy a dedicated swaging setup so that
I can make. You know, I primarily shoot like two
twenty three, five, five, six, seventy five, seventy sevens these days,
and frankly, like I said, the velocity range for small
bore center fire modern center fiers kind of takes it

(46:50):
really out of the league of where it makes a
lot of sense to cast the bullet. And if you
look at these guys on this panel, like me, lip Tech,
you know, anybody that's doing it a lot, you learn
pretty quickly the cartridges that make sense to cast for
and the velocity ranges that make sense to cast for.
And basically you're shooting big, slow, heavy bullets and that's

(47:10):
where it shines, and it works really good, you know,
in there, and you can be effective with it.

Speaker 12 (47:16):
Two twenty three. I cast for two twenty three. But
you know, even with some of the more modern things
that people do, like powder coating. Powder coating is the
big one right now.

Speaker 13 (47:29):
People powder coat cast lead bullets, and it generally lets
you shoot a softer bullet at slightly higher velocities.

Speaker 12 (47:37):
But anytime you're talking about cast.

Speaker 13 (47:38):
Bullets, you've got a velocity window of about two thousand
to you know, twenty two hundred feet per second or so,
you know somewhere in there that realistically makes sense. So
a lot of times, if you're shooting let's say, thirty
caliber supersonic anything in that three h eight thirty out
six category, you're going to be shooting like two hundred
and twenty two hundred and thirty grand bullets.

Speaker 6 (47:59):
You're going to be shooting.

Speaker 13 (48:00):
Heavy for caliber projectiles, keep it essentially in that velocity
range to where it makes sense, and it of course
makes sense for anything subsonic. So if you're shooting subsonic,
you know, three hundred blackout just to pick one out
of the thing, I cast a two hundred and thirty
grain bullet that I powder coat and I shoot, you know, suppressed,

(48:23):
and it's now that is an instance where it's highly economical.
It does make sense, you know, to actually do it
and shoot a lot more.

Speaker 12 (48:32):
Than you would have.

Speaker 2 (48:34):
Oh, the pricing on subsort ridiculous in three hundred yep yep.

Speaker 13 (48:40):
So but yeah, there's there's a ton of rabbit holes,
and you can get into it for any number of reasons,
and you can take it as far as you want
or just as superficial as you want. And that's one
of the things I've enjoyed is because I tend to
dive down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
No not you sturtam govit.

Speaker 2 (49:02):
So any any other feedback with that, with reasons why
you would encourage someone to do it, or reasons why
you discourage someone from doing some reloading, Okay, go get it.

Speaker 1 (49:13):
A lot of it is stuff isn't available out there,
specific loads or whatever. I mean, I'm finding that in
the last few years working with you know, some of
these guys Darryl and Bryan and Chuck and whomever. You know, Hey,
can you make this just not finding X.

Speaker 3 (49:30):
Well forty one magnum.

Speaker 1 (49:33):
Forty one special you know, yeah that area, Yeah, you
know it's that and some of this stuff it's I'm
finding when I was you know, I've been on a
couple of year podcasts before explaining this, but going back
to the eighties and nineties, when the writers would, you know,
just to say three fifty seven, you know, he has

(49:53):
to be run at mock five or you know, fourteen
hundred or whatever. But you know, but that was the
technology of the day. And then when Darryl and I
worked on his load, I actually did we did it backwards. Generally,
when I do a load, I do performance first, or
the defensive load, to make sure it's going to penetrate
and expand whatever, and then I make a matching rangeload. Well,

(50:15):
this was turned around backwards. We made the rangeload first,
found out where Daryl wanted it, and it was like
nine thirty five or hild. He says, okay, now make
a defensive load, and I'm thinking, I'm still sitting back
thirty years before eighties and nineties, going We're not going
to find anything that's going to expand reliably at that velocity.

(50:35):
So I mixed up some fbijil and hit XTP, and
the first load out of that nineteen snub boom, you know,
eighteen inches of penetration, the sucker expanded. I thought that's
going to be a fluke. So I fired another three
or four cylinders into the block. I'm just going to hell,
this is not not what we're told is supposed to

(50:56):
be happening. And so I my load, I mean, I
don't load anything hot in the in the for the company,
for the you know, for the public. Well I do.
I take that back Steve Fisher's load. That's that's abnormal.
But now it's at forty four magnum two sixty five
drain got it shooting about seventeen fifty and it's a

(51:20):
little bit hot. Yeah, it's rifle only. It's definitely not
a not a handgun. That's not going to work in
even a black Hawk. But finding the loads like the
one that Chauncey used to drop those hogs, it's just
a three hundred grain XTP running out of thousand. I
think just the pure inertia of the bullet weight itself
just you know, helps do the job. It's nice, easy shooting.

(51:44):
It's really not abusive. Forty five obviously for a magnum
thousand feet it's not abusive. And I'm finding that we're
not having to run stuff at what Caleb Gettings would say,
mock Jesus to get the stuff to perform, and it's
less recoil blast. It's not beating up the shooter or
the or the gun or anything. And they're performing. And

(52:07):
I'm thinking, you know, I mean, obviously we're talking more
defensive two legged stuff or light animals. But I've had
people use that forty one special it's running at nine
hundred with that's two fifteen semi wade cutter, and they're
dropping deer with the thing. People use my forty one Magnum,

(52:27):
which is only running at it's the model fifty eight load,
so it's running about nine seventy or so and it's
dropping deer left and right. It's like, I mean, obviously,
you know, handgun honting a little bit closer, but what
else do you want?

Speaker 2 (52:41):
You know?

Speaker 3 (52:41):
I mean, when I shot.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
Five ye oh, I was gonna say, when I shot
your forty five Colt that made me purchase multiple, going
oh this is cool. I like this caliber.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
Yeah. I made one, yeah, I made one load. It
was for off of the old cavalry load set about
seven to fifty ish or so whatever. And then mark
down there below me test it and it blows two
jail blocks. It's like, it's like, so we figured, well, okay,
seven fifty it is blowing two jail blocks. That's thirty

(53:17):
two inches of jail and then it's who knows where
it's going after that.

Speaker 2 (53:21):
Since we're not on YouTube anymore, I can say things
like shoots through schools that Johnny dangerously. You guys haven't
seen the movie.

Speaker 3 (53:28):
Come on, seriously, through schools.

Speaker 6 (53:30):
I haven't seen the movie, Michael Keaton.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
But bullet design and velocity is you know, but loading
will will help you to tailor make what you're wanting
and what you're going to do with it. And you know,
obviously you're you're kind of bound by what you know,
if you go to this, you know, you go to
the stores whatever and find them on the shelf, you're

(53:56):
bound by what they're going to make, and that's all
you're gonna get. Yeah, and the same thing with so
we look back at loading and acts three with rifles.
I mean, you can pull something off the shelf for
your model seventy thirty out six, whatever you got, and
it doesn't group very well. So now you get you know, okay,
so I dump this box of wind chest and out

(54:17):
there I got trifederal, whatever else. And you know, I
load hunting rounds as well, but I don't really tailor
make them to mine. I just you know, they're pretty
decent accuracy, but I have no idea what rifle you're
going to put it through. So it's like it may
work for your rifle, it may not. But that's the
same thing you're going to have with anything on the
off the store shelf. Yeah, any factories, it's just a

(54:40):
shot and you know, toss the dice if it's going
to work for your rifle or not. And so handloading gets,
especially for rifles, and Garyan Dwank and probably Scott can
mention that, you know, talk about that. It's like you
can you've got a certain rifle, you can dial it
in of what it likes, and that's what it is.
I don't you know. I'm I'm a little different. I mean,

(55:02):
I buy my stuff right from the factory. So my
prices that I'm getting my components is is pretty decent still.

Speaker 3 (55:08):
And it's not as good.

Speaker 1 (55:10):
And then yeah, so I got a funny story. So
we left my we kind of changed positions for the FFL.
This stuff was coming over more like in an industrial
area right. So now working with ATF, they said, now
let's put your FFL where you're you know, where you're producing.
You know, I have two different options for two different places,

(55:31):
and so it's just consolidated into one. But okay, so explosed.
So now I'm kind of like more into town, but
I'm right on the edge, kind of like on the
end of a main drag. Right, this explosives truck. I'm
ordering like fifteen or two thousand pounds of powder. Right,
the explosives truck takes a wrong turn downtown through here
and it finally finds me and it's getting escorted by

(55:53):
not only the state patrol but the city and the
county cop Someone called it in as an explosives truck
or driving the thing is I don't know if you've
ever seen what it's got, the little cubicle containers. It's
like four of them at different levels on this flatbed
thing whatever, and it's highly placard all over the place
with everything on it, and everybody's just having a cow.

(56:14):
Is this thing to drive right down to the middle
of downtown main Street? And that was yeah. So he
pulls in and it's going on to you. I said,
my powder order man, I don't know cool anyway, So
yestuff's more expensive, especially on the retail side. It's it's
creeping up, you know, for me as well. But so

(56:38):
far everything's everything's flowing. Powder is a little bit stiff
on the stiff side. I talked to Hodgden at at Shot.
They're supposed to be getting more more releases powders, but
all the powder that they used to have, I think
is only about a third of it's available anymore. So
having powder like like Gary was talking about, having a

(57:00):
powder that can be versatile and can can work for
several different things is the way to go if you could,
you know, if you settle down on some loads and
just stockpile that. And but yeah, you can dial whatever
wife you want to, and you can't do that with
a lot of the factory stuff. You're stuck with whatever

(57:21):
you got where you can find.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Well, I remember doing the last scare, going to the
gun store and just looking at the shelves just out
of curiosity, and I think I'd even took a picture
of it to show, and it was all this crappy
ammo that I would make fun of in other.

Speaker 3 (57:37):
Social media posts.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
But that's if that's all there is and you didn't
buy stuff before, sorry, Yeah, sucks.

Speaker 3 (57:46):
To be you.

Speaker 17 (57:48):
Now's the time to buy AMO right now because it's
the lowest price we've seen in years.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
And I understand we're due to have another hike.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Yeah, they've been getting hikes. I mean, I guess emails
about twice a year for a round just about the
first the year and then about mid year usually anywhere
from three to five seven percent hike. And amazingly enough,
well you're seeing it with some I am like nine
is dirt cheap. So my suggestion is, you know I'd

(58:18):
be stacked, you know, I'd be stacking nine. Two twenty
three isn't that bad either right now, especi, if you
get sales online, I'd be stacking that pretty deep as well.
Some of the other stuff the hunting the way, Yeah,
twenty two's you know, people ask me if you know
if you had to have one one caliber, it's like
twenty two. You know, it'll drop anything if you put

(58:39):
the shot in the right spot. Obviously, I mean, you know,
we I'm not as have as many animals as Gary does,
but you know we butcher stuff at on on of property.
We've got and put them down every time with a
twenty two and never have a problem with it.

Speaker 3 (58:59):
Cool. Now, what about those bad lessons?

Speaker 2 (59:05):
One of the because Mark was saying that there was
something that happened that he has a story.

Speaker 3 (59:10):
Look at just look at his face. He's excited to
tell the story.

Speaker 17 (59:14):
So when I started loading, of course, I've always been
a I wis say, a disciple of Colonel Cooper, and
I read when I was a young man.

Speaker 6 (59:22):
I read everything that Colonel.

Speaker 17 (59:23):
Cooper had, and of course everything had to be hot
and he had he had loads. He recommended one fifty
eight green semi wadcuttered one thousand feet per second out
of a snobby and I went out and bought my
Model Tan and I have every loading manual and at
that time my anciently had the lead loader or had
to beat the brass into the reciding thing and then

(59:45):
knock it out.

Speaker 6 (59:46):
I loaded seking. It was six screens of unique.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
Uh.

Speaker 6 (59:50):
The NF velocity was like a spear number nine.

Speaker 17 (59:54):
Manuals or something like that, and that was it was
hot load for a Model Tan. My little too much
Model ten, and I ended up breaking the trigger stead
over it, which you know was my only gun that
I'm my own personal gun. You know, I was crying
having to send it back to Smith and have it fixed,

(01:00:15):
But yeah, it's that's one. And then you think I
know better after all these years of loading. Again, on
my testing for onecutters, I had this thirty Smith and Weston,
which is one of my favorite cartridges, and I found
an eighty grain bullet from rim Rock and so I've
loaded usually about two point five to three grains of

(01:00:36):
two thirty one in cases, whether one or one forty
eight grain wad cutter, and that's worked pretty well. So
I thought, well, okay, this is a half the way bullet,
So how about I pushed the powder a little bit,
So I loaded four grains of two thirty one instead
of loading it lower and then working my way up,
and I loaded five of them with five grains at

(01:00:56):
two thirty one.

Speaker 6 (01:00:58):
Okay, so I'm shooting them out of a J frame terrier.

Speaker 17 (01:01:00):
While thirty two to one average velocity on the four
grains was one thousand and forty two feet per second
out of a one and seven eighth inch barrel.

Speaker 6 (01:01:11):
I launched only one and one only.

Speaker 17 (01:01:13):
Out of the five grains, and it went thirteen seventy
eight and I went, oh, man, I think I'm done.

Speaker 3 (01:01:21):
Singed all the hair off your arm a little lot.

Speaker 17 (01:01:23):
It was it was, it was you know, it didn't
recoil bad, but definitely pressure signs. And like I said,
the velocity for that eighty grain one cutter. I was
just shooting for accuracy, so I didn't shoot it into
jail yet. I was just shooting it for groups. But
I stopped after the first round because I really like
the gun and I don't want to damage it, and
I'm afraid that if I fired many more of that,
I will so with the ones that I have left,

(01:01:44):
load and I'm going to shoot in my Ruger Security
or Service six or out of there's chambered for it,
because I know that will take Magnum type AMO and
I figure that will be away from me to having
not to pull the bullets.

Speaker 6 (01:01:57):
I'll just shoot them and be done with it. So
that's going to have in this weekend. So if I
don't come back on you know what happened to me.

Speaker 3 (01:02:04):
Mark's missing is his right arm.

Speaker 6 (01:02:06):
But it's okay.

Speaker 12 (01:02:08):
That's how God gave you to Mark exactly.

Speaker 6 (01:02:11):
I'll do it right hand.

Speaker 17 (01:02:12):
It is. I keep my good one. So I see
mistakes are when you reload, you're going to make mistakes.
I've had where i've I'm not double charged, but I
have not always.

Speaker 6 (01:02:28):
I got into the.

Speaker 17 (01:02:29):
Habit of taking a flash light when I went a
single stage, and I will look at every single charge
just to make sure I've.

Speaker 6 (01:02:36):
Had some double charge.

Speaker 17 (01:02:37):
I've never shot a double charge, but I've thrown double charges.
But because I check them, I haven't had that problem,
which I can't do with my billin. And that's the
one thing I don't like about the Dyllan when you
do the progressive and I'm probably just not good at it.
And one of the times that I was loading also
will tell you don't be distracted.

Speaker 6 (01:02:55):
You've got to focus on what you're doing.

Speaker 17 (01:02:59):
Over my brothers, I was using his five fifty loading
up a bunch of one cutters for the National Shooting Championships,
and I had my nephews in there and they were
screaming around talking to me, We're having a good time
and all that, And that was the worst reloads I'd
ever done.

Speaker 6 (01:03:13):
Other five hundred rounds up and it was the worst
I had.

Speaker 17 (01:03:16):
It was some with primers were not exited out the
old primers are still in some did net powner chargers.

Speaker 6 (01:03:23):
And let's just say it was a disaster. And I said,
I'm never doing this again. Tolma brother, thank you. I
appreciate you.

Speaker 15 (01:03:28):
Use your press.

Speaker 6 (01:03:29):
I'm not coming over again because I can't have boys
over there while I'm trying to load. So some things
you got to be aware of.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
So based on what you said, anyone under the age
of twenty five probably should not try reloading.

Speaker 6 (01:03:44):
Not phone and I was loading at age.

Speaker 3 (01:03:47):
Twenty oh No, I mean now this current generation.

Speaker 17 (01:03:50):
Yeah, think it's probably true, especially for the short extensionpan
that most of them have.

Speaker 3 (01:03:55):
Yes, not even a single stage.

Speaker 2 (01:03:58):
Just just buy your stuff, right, call high desert cartridge.

Speaker 3 (01:04:04):
They can they can help you good stuff or.

Speaker 15 (01:04:07):
Having a load of black powder. They can't blow themselves
up with that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:12):
True. In the case to blow it up, I can't.

Speaker 1 (01:04:17):
I wouldn't say that challenge accepted. Someone's going to try it.
You know that.

Speaker 16 (01:04:22):
I was loading, Uh, I was loading forty one magnum
and I was using two fifteen Uh. Some wadcutters left
cast bullets and I was using I was using a
RCBS little Dandy, which I love, I love a little dandy.

Speaker 4 (01:04:38):
They're so convenient. And I'm loading eight grains.

Speaker 16 (01:04:42):
Of two thirty one, which is kind of like kind
of forty five cold forty one mag across the board
just makes a good, uh reasonable, uh reasonable load. I
guess I shouldn't say, I guess I know.

Speaker 23 (01:04:58):
I double charge one, which is the first time I
first is the last time I've ever done that. But
I'm shooting this forty one four and five ahence rugery blackhawk,
and I touched one.

Speaker 4 (01:05:10):
Off, cool, touching it one off, cool, touch the last one.

Speaker 16 (01:05:14):
Off, the third one, not the last one, but the
third one, and this sucker doesn't come apart.

Speaker 4 (01:05:22):
But the recol was substantial.

Speaker 16 (01:05:27):
The blast was substantial, and I was like, oh, yeah,
what happened.

Speaker 4 (01:05:34):
Well, I know what happened.

Speaker 16 (01:05:35):
So I go to eject that case, and I've got
to remove the cylinder. I get a screwdriver out of
my door pucket, my feed pickup because I'm not going
to go back in the shop, because why no, I
put a screwdriver in there and take a hammer. I've
got to beat that case out. So I double charged.
So my eight grain charge.

Speaker 24 (01:05:57):
Turned into a sixteen grain charge two thirty one under
two fifteen, So I kind of wish I would have
had a chronograph handy because I didn't damage my gun,
but it was impossible to eject with the ejector.

Speaker 16 (01:06:17):
Obviously not a not a semi spec safe load. But
the Blackhawk took it, took it like a champ and
kept on going. But that was my one and only
time of making a big mistake loading hand on cartages.

Speaker 4 (01:06:36):
Double charging with two thirty one.

Speaker 16 (01:06:39):
And I had a conversation today with a guy who's
talking about I'm going to start loading forty five COLT,
but I want to start out on the on the
low end, you know, I don't want to load, you know, magnum.

Speaker 4 (01:06:53):
Lineball level loads. I'm starting out.

Speaker 16 (01:06:57):
And my argument to him was, it's almost safer to
load the hotter loads if you have a suple gun
because the likelihood of you being able to double charge
and not realize it is much lower because it's gonna

(01:07:20):
using twenty four one to ten uh potters like that,
it's going to be pretty obvious if you double charge,
But with a powder light two thirty one, it's not
going to be like evidently it's going to be obvious
because they're low volume powders.

Speaker 7 (01:07:43):
Any black challenge as a challenge with any of the
cartridge cases that were designed to work with black powder,
which you know, volumetrically significantly larger, you end up with
smokeless powders of any formulation that reaches the same pressure
being significantly more power dense.

Speaker 6 (01:08:00):
And yeah, double charges become a thing.

Speaker 7 (01:08:02):
Trail boss real popular for that reason in light loads
for guys, because it's.

Speaker 6 (01:08:06):
Fluffy and if you can find it.

Speaker 7 (01:08:09):
That's the problem these days, you know, and I do
a lot of green dot for loads like that. It
is on the fluffier side of things. Unique is certainly
more universal. But during the dark days, for a green
dot was readily available and I was shooting Cowboy action,
so I started to shooting green dot, and I use
that for a bunch of things. You don't get the

(01:08:30):
same velocity, but same kind of thing. It's fluffier, it's
not positioned sensitive. It's the other thing with light loads
in a high volume case is some powders are positioned
sensitive and some powders are not. In that if you
take certain powders and it doesn't have a significant portion
of case fill and you don't put some dacron or

(01:08:51):
some other filler in there to keep it in position.
In the case you can get too much surface area
exposed to prim or flame front at one time and
you get a pressure spike and you blow your gun
up with a light.

Speaker 5 (01:09:02):
Load, which is kind of a crazy concept.

Speaker 4 (01:09:06):
You get that with as well. Yeah, little gun h
one ten. Uh, it's a problem.

Speaker 16 (01:09:16):
And I'm a twenty four hundred guy. I bought I
don't know, I bought so much twenty four over the years,
and like we were talking about earlier, it kind of
made me a recession proof in a sense. I'm not uh,

(01:09:39):
I'm not gonna run out of twenty four hundred. But anyhow,
the uh, the pattern shortage that we are currently in
have been in for quite some time.

Speaker 4 (01:09:56):
Uh.

Speaker 16 (01:09:59):
Buying in bulk ahead of time and kind of preparing
for that stuff makes us more previous to situations like.

Speaker 4 (01:10:08):
We're right now. But anyway, you'll go ahead, I'm rambling.

Speaker 13 (01:10:15):
Well, I've seen a just to echo all of that,
I've seen a hell of a lot more guys blow
up guns with light loads because they were able to
double charge it and not notice it.

Speaker 12 (01:10:25):
Then I have guys with heavy that load heavy loads.

Speaker 13 (01:10:30):
Whole lots of guys come in with a vertical top
strap and half a cylinder that.

Speaker 12 (01:10:35):
Said, I don't know what happened.

Speaker 13 (01:10:36):
It was a light load and it was either the
wrong kind of powder and two light a load and
they flashed over like Dwayne just described, or more often
than not, because that's actually fairly I think uncommon for
guys to blow a gun up doing that, but it
does happen more often than not. They double charge it
and didn't realize it because they were using such a
low volume of powder.

Speaker 15 (01:10:57):
In a big case.

Speaker 12 (01:10:58):
And I actually do the same thing. I try to
pick powders that I like.

Speaker 13 (01:11:02):
Just for example, I fee out of fifty seven forty
four in these old you know, rimmed you know, black
powder eric cartridges because it's big and fluffy, you know,
for the same reason, just so that I'm not putting
you know, powder that I.

Speaker 12 (01:11:17):
Can't look in there and go, yeah, that's that's the
right charge.

Speaker 19 (01:11:20):
Yeah that all the circumstance where you talk about those
black powdered cartridges are the ones that were designed around
black powder.

Speaker 13 (01:11:28):
So my.

Speaker 19 (01:11:31):
Mess ups come with learning how to load a forty
four forty that I bought got a you Birdie forty
four forty, and the learning curve with that is what
got me into casting and loading, because in nineteen ninety
you couldn't get a property shaped nose profile to make

(01:11:53):
it run through a toggle league action and all of
the load data.

Speaker 15 (01:11:58):
So the forty four to forty.

Speaker 19 (01:12:00):
Comes out in eighteen seventy three, but by the time
you get into nineteen hundred and smokeless powders out there,
all the load manuals are hot rotting the stuff to
forty four magnum velocities. And then here I come along,
and that's the load data that's available, and I I'd
bent the bold on that rifle a couple of times.

(01:12:21):
I couldn't get things to seat properly, I couldn't get
them to feed properly. And it was a sharp and
expensive learning curve that basically taught me that if it
was designed for black powder, pick black powder, pick a
black powder substitute, but it's going.

Speaker 15 (01:12:39):
To work with black powder. I picked up a forty.

Speaker 19 (01:12:42):
Five seventy five, you know, about eleven years ago. Didn't
learn my lesson with the forty four to forty thought
I wanted to have a smokeless load for it and
didn't have any blow ups. I mean, I had enough
experience at that point that I was loading. I was
loading safe. But the powder doesn't burn properly in those

(01:13:04):
big cases, and I'd have a trail of unburned kernels
running down the barrel and calls to Hodgdon and they're like, well,
one you shouldn't be loading smokeless in that, and two
you're never going to get it to burn right. It's
it's too big a case for what you're asking it
to do. Yeah, And I just I'm like, if it
was designed for black powder, with rare exception, that's what

(01:13:26):
it should be fed. Then obviously with the forty five
colt and a couple of others, those are going to
be suitable exceptions.

Speaker 15 (01:13:36):
But otherwise the safe way to do it is just
to do it the way it was designed.

Speaker 4 (01:13:43):
Well.

Speaker 17 (01:13:44):
Small charters is like the thirty S and W were
designed around black powder, because obviously it came out in
Ege of seventy four. It makes a nice transition over
to smokeless. Thirty especial originally came out in black powder
and then went to smoke was almost immediately after it
came out be it cult was the same way it
came out of.

Speaker 6 (01:14:01):
Black pattern and then switched over to smokeless.

Speaker 1 (01:14:05):
Different and easier to I think it's easier for the
switch over on the on the smaller case volumes.

Speaker 7 (01:14:11):
Yes, that's exactly the percentage of difference between smokeless and
and black load vaults and is the percentage may be
the same. The actual difference is smaller enough that doesn't
create the biggest problem with pistol calipers for the most part.

Speaker 17 (01:14:29):
Question and a question for a Scott if I could
you said that the powder wouldn't burn if you put
a filler in to keep it up against the primer
of keeping in there.

Speaker 6 (01:14:39):
Did you find that made a difference or not.

Speaker 15 (01:14:41):
I'd ever used a filler.

Speaker 19 (01:14:44):
And one I didn't know about that at the time,
and since then I'm not a fan of it. But
my conversations with Hodgden, that wasn't the problem, right.

Speaker 15 (01:14:57):
The problem is it never going to build enough pressure.

Speaker 19 (01:15:01):
Okay, that's that's what they told me, is that that
round is never going to build enough pressure to get
proper burn on that on any powder that was going
to be suitable to use.

Speaker 15 (01:15:11):
For what I was trying to do.

Speaker 17 (01:15:13):
So, Okay, I'm new into forty five seventy loading.

Speaker 6 (01:15:17):
I've only loaded maybe fifty rounds of it, and I
don't even remember right now. I got my book, I
don't remember.

Speaker 17 (01:15:23):
What I used for it, but I loaded them light
because my forty five seventy only weighs about six pounds
and it's got a bit a push on it, and
if I try to fight factory loads, and I'm not
a pleasant gun to shoot with factory loads, so I
definitely handload for it more and I'm going to use
I'm gonna use light bullets and light loads for it
so I can actually shoot it more and have fun

(01:15:44):
with it.

Speaker 19 (01:15:47):
Well, we should save that for Matt's forty five to
seventy conversation.

Speaker 6 (01:15:51):
Heck, yeah, I agreed.

Speaker 14 (01:15:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:15:55):
So one of the things that was discussed back in
our I think it was the forty five episode one
of the concepts that absolutely blew my mind. As a
matter of fact, I think it happened in with the
chat that caused me to want to do the episode
was talking about how much more forgiving the right revolver
can be for.

Speaker 3 (01:16:15):
More powerful loads.

Speaker 2 (01:16:16):
And one of the things that was brought up was
with a forty five cult you can surpass forty four
magnum ability with lesser pressure, and let's talk about that.

Speaker 3 (01:16:29):
Let's talk about how we can maximize this.

Speaker 2 (01:16:31):
And yeah, there's some cool viability with stuff that people
have kind of disregarded.

Speaker 1 (01:16:37):
I think for the maximize I ain't. Chancey and I
discussed it because I was looking for a looking at
a defensive round for Daryl on that forty five colt
here not too long ago.

Speaker 3 (01:16:47):
Of course you did, yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 1 (01:16:50):
Yeah, And I kept going up and up and up
whether you wanted around nine something, and I'm just going,
this is going to be one nasty ass recoil and sucker.
You know, it's you know, And I was talking to
Chauncey about that, and we kind of agreed. It's like,
I think the forty five colt was just designed for
a lead bullet. I don't know, Chancey, you can chime

(01:17:11):
in on that thing, but it's like, no, I agree,
that's the same. It's like jacketed bullets. You give it
the same load. You're looking at a two to fifty
grain XTP whatever you wanted, it's just say two hundred
and fifty grain jacketed bullet, you give it X amount
of powder. The lead, you get the same on the lead.

(01:17:32):
The lead's going to outdo it for velocity every every time.
And so trying to get a jacketed bullet up to
a certain velocity is tougher, especially if you got a
hollow point and you need to get it to perform,
it's tougher. And forty five colt just wasn't made for that.
And I just I uh acquiesced to Chancey there, and

(01:17:53):
it's like this thing was made for lead, it was
not made for a jacket. I mean, I do jacketed
bullets because I run automated machines. I got to keep
my machines clean. But if I was going to do
a handloading for a forty five cold and I'll let
Chauncey chime in here again, I think i'd definitely go
lead with it. Go ahead, Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 16 (01:18:14):
Uh, the forty five colt kind of shines with say
your standard two fifty fives, but I feel like they
should be running at nine hundred plus up to up to.

Speaker 4 (01:18:32):
One thousand, uh twelve hundred.

Speaker 16 (01:18:36):
That's perfectly safe for your birdy, your Italian clones.

Speaker 4 (01:18:43):
But where I really love the forty.

Speaker 16 (01:18:45):
Five Colt, and it's kind of a different conversation, but
it's in the same vein where I love the forty
five Colt is whenever you're running.

Speaker 4 (01:18:55):
A three hundred grain bullet out of.

Speaker 16 (01:18:57):
A thousand, because you're not cracking that threshold where it's
not safe for your Italian guns. That that bullet, that
velocity is safe in your Italian guns, obviously very safe
in your rigors, whether they are mid frames or large frames.

(01:19:19):
But it's so such a versatile load. So you're running
a three hundred green bullet.

Speaker 25 (01:19:26):
Let's be a second and there's nothing that won't penetrate,
there's nothing you won't take care of, but you're still
keeping that recal threshold down to where a lot of
people can handle it.

Speaker 4 (01:19:41):
And this kind of goes back to why do you handload?

Speaker 16 (01:19:44):
So I'm not going to buy commercial AMMO from a
big manufacturer like Winchester, Meanton Federal that I'm going to
get a three hundred bullet forty five COLT doing a
grand one thousand feet a second.

Speaker 4 (01:20:04):
It's just not going to happen.

Speaker 16 (01:20:07):
Most forty five colt is loaded down to about, uh, what.

Speaker 4 (01:20:11):
Is it Steve fourteen thousand, fourteen thousand.

Speaker 1 (01:20:16):
Yeah, twelve twelve yeah, twelve twelve to fourteen is low
yeah yeah.

Speaker 16 (01:20:21):
Yeah, which is safe for the uh you know, first
gen Colts all the way up to modern modern Colts.
And I understand it. You're there, they're covering, they're covering
their bases and keeping things safe for everyone. And I
totally get it. And this goes back to why are
you handloading? Well, I'm handloading because I cannot get the

(01:20:41):
performance from forty five colt.

Speaker 4 (01:20:44):
The I can't.

Speaker 16 (01:20:45):
I can't exploit the potential from forty five colt OH
with type ammunition.

Speaker 4 (01:20:51):
Unless it's from someone like from somebody like you. But
just as UH.

Speaker 16 (01:21:02):
As the kind of common denominator, I'm not going to
get performance from a forty five Colt from a factory load.

Speaker 4 (01:21:11):
It's not possible.

Speaker 16 (01:21:13):
Nobody's doing that, and I understand because it's not safe.
But as a handloader, say I have a large flamed Blackhawk.
I can take that gun, and I can take a
three hundred grand bullet.

Speaker 4 (01:21:29):
I can run that bullet at fourteen fifty. You can't
do that with a factory.

Speaker 16 (01:21:38):
Ammunition unless you're operating very outside of the semi specs.
So what I'm the reason I'm loading for these guns
is number one, it's accessibility and cost.

Speaker 4 (01:21:55):
And then you're looking at performance.

Speaker 16 (01:22:00):
Where can I buy a you know, gass bulletload that's
a three hundred gain bullet or a uh they have
three sixty? Can I get a three sixty from anybody
that's running uh you know eleven?

Speaker 4 (01:22:14):
No? Probably not. Maybe from somebody a manufacturer that.

Speaker 6 (01:22:22):
Buffalo didn't want to think of it would do anything.

Speaker 4 (01:22:24):
Well, I wasn't going to say that, yeah that's yeah,
in a in a public setting, I wasn't going to
say Buffalo boar.

Speaker 16 (01:22:31):
But yeah, sorry, no, no, no, you're you're absolutely right.
I wasn't going to say that, but yeah, Buffalo boar.
And you know, I trust a strangers handloads a little
bit more than I trust those. But you know, I'll

(01:22:51):
probably be a feature in the next Buffalo Board YouTube
video or saying shit like that, but it's fucking true.
Uh anyway, Sorry, I'm rambling. I've been rambling for way
too long.

Speaker 3 (01:23:02):
How do you really feel?

Speaker 17 (01:23:05):
Well?

Speaker 15 (01:23:05):
Now?

Speaker 13 (01:23:06):
You know, well, you know it's it's not even just
getting the load. It's good luck going to your average
gun store and finding more than two boxes and forty
five colt.

Speaker 12 (01:23:16):
No matter what they are, you know.

Speaker 13 (01:23:19):
Forty or thirty eight to fifty five or you know,
any one of those number of things, you're just not
going to find it.

Speaker 12 (01:23:25):
If it's if it's not nine.

Speaker 13 (01:23:26):
Millimeters or two twenty three or something even thirty eight special,
you know, you're going to be highly limited as far
as the variety of ammunition that you can find. Intact,
if you're you know, one anything other than you know,
one hundred and thirty grand full metal jacket thirty eight
special or one hundred and fifty eight grade lead roundnoes

(01:23:48):
thirty eight special, the odds.

Speaker 12 (01:23:50):
That you're going to find it unless it's in a.

Speaker 13 (01:23:52):
Box of twenty and it says hornity or spear on it.
You know, are are very slim in guns.

Speaker 1 (01:24:00):
First.

Speaker 12 (01:24:01):
I mean, obviously they're going to cater to the you know.

Speaker 13 (01:24:03):
Where the volume is, and a lot of the stuff
that it seems like we'd shooting guys like us are
not the mainstream cartridges anymore.

Speaker 12 (01:24:12):
For you know, whatever reason. I love for them, and I.

Speaker 15 (01:24:18):
Want I want.

Speaker 16 (01:24:22):
Forty five cold ammunition that's going to perform, that's loaded,
not to the full potential because the full potential forty
five cold is kind of subjective because you have two
different classes of firearms that can harness the power. You've
got large framed black Hawks and then you've got the
single action army patterned guns and they're they're both very

(01:24:44):
different through you know, you could almost call it a
different cartridge, but it's, you know, dimensionally the same, but they're.

Speaker 4 (01:24:54):
Two different tiers well.

Speaker 13 (01:24:55):
And for people who aren't familiar with handloading, it used
to be a feature.

Speaker 12 (01:25:00):
I haven't bought a new handloading manual in a long time, but.

Speaker 13 (01:25:04):
It used to be a feature in handloading manuals that
they'd have a cartridge like forty four magnum or forty
five colt And there are two sections, right, one remember
forty five colt and one was Ruger revolvers only because
of that, but it really was two different categories.

Speaker 17 (01:25:24):
Magnum and we'll be rifle and a forty four manum handgun.
And like you said, they'll have different loads for various
the type of gunness there, but.

Speaker 1 (01:25:35):
Forty five seventies that way, they still have it for
the trap door, yeah, and then they have it for
the modern and they have they have three different things
for the forty five seventy.

Speaker 4 (01:25:45):
That's good thing.

Speaker 26 (01:25:46):
Yeah, yeah, because they initiated have a you know, they
have something to look at and they can look at
a manual and say, hey, this is safe for my gun,
and it's it's not safe for.

Speaker 4 (01:26:02):
You, birdie. You know, I feel like that's necessary. I'm
glad they do it like that.

Speaker 19 (01:26:08):
Well, it's the lack of that information of what caused
me problems when I started with mine.

Speaker 1 (01:26:14):
I just didn't know, wasn't I agree with I agree
with Gary there. I mean Gary's got so he said,
he's got some of the old manuals. I recommend that
people that asked me about loading, I said, get new
stuff and get you know, because there's some powders that
are on the market now that the old books don't have.
And obviously some of that older powder isn't available. But

(01:26:34):
once in a while, if you go to a gun show,
you can find this stuff that is hasn't been opened,
looks like it's been you know, care of, you know,
been taken care of, and now you've got some load
data from it from those older manuals, from the who
knows how far back sixties seventies or whatever.

Speaker 6 (01:26:52):
Well, I think man has also changed the powder.

Speaker 17 (01:26:54):
I mean, twenty four hundred back in the easterly days
is not the same twenty four hundred we have today.

Speaker 1 (01:27:00):
That's true too, Same with unique and some of the
other stuff have.

Speaker 16 (01:27:06):
Have any of you guys use the uh, the new
Herko powders.

Speaker 1 (01:27:13):
Not? No?

Speaker 16 (01:27:16):
Yeah, I mean my local shop has like fifty pounds
per sale and I kind of want to try it,
but I just don't have any uh, any point of
reference or data for that powder.

Speaker 1 (01:27:32):
The actual Hercle powder is the actual powder name is Herko. Yes,
that's a that's an old powder name. I haven't I
haven't heard of that.

Speaker 4 (01:27:40):
Yeah, it is old, but it's uh it's old.

Speaker 1 (01:27:43):
What old is?

Speaker 16 (01:27:44):
What's old? Is new again? Yeah? It's a powder.

Speaker 6 (01:27:51):
Or who's making it?

Speaker 11 (01:27:53):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (01:27:54):
Okay, So it's a new release of Herko Yes, got you? Okay,
Just just just like we were talking about, some powders
have have have changed, and so the originally has.

Speaker 4 (01:28:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:28:10):
I remember her go back forty fifty years ago when
it was you know, that was a good, you know,
decent powder. It was in all the manuals and and
you don't see it now, so now it's it's coming
back in then it's going to have a different content
to it.

Speaker 4 (01:28:24):
Right, And that was a powder that Uh, I'm right
about that powder. But like I said, I m hmm.

Speaker 16 (01:28:33):
And and you said, it's uh it's something new on
the market because you know it's going to be different,
slightly different.

Speaker 1 (01:28:40):
Yep.

Speaker 4 (01:28:41):
So can I use it for heavy loads or you know?

Speaker 16 (01:28:44):
And that's what they marketed for a shotgun and mag
them handguns.

Speaker 4 (01:28:49):
But I have not tried it yet, but I like.

Speaker 17 (01:28:52):
To with with the various manufacturers combining. I mean, when
Winchester was bought out by Hodgens, I don't think the
two thirty one that I first got that I still have,
probably a little bit of the left is the same
as the two thirty one today because H thirty eight.

Speaker 3 (01:29:11):
Is the same as the same thing, same load.

Speaker 6 (01:29:13):
But yet it wasn't when Winchester owned it, so they
had to have changed it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:19):
Yeah, Hodgden owns five powder companies. Yeah, they own accurate
ramshot of course Hodgden IMR and then Winchester Winchester.

Speaker 4 (01:29:32):
Yeah, so this.

Speaker 15 (01:29:36):
I don't even know if I need to bring or
you mentioned this, but to my understanding Hodgden has never
made powder.

Speaker 1 (01:29:43):
Correct, they don't make powder, no, they they.

Speaker 19 (01:29:46):
Just purchased the licensing agreements for the licensing for it.

Speaker 1 (01:29:51):
I have a lot of the stuff made by Saint
Mark's and a lot of stuff that was coming overseas.
In fact, when I first started in the industry, a
lot of my stuff is coming out of Belgium. And
they had contracts with some of the powder companies in
both Belgium and Australia, and they have the right the
right mix to get the right burn rates and stuff.

(01:30:14):
And so that's so like a lot of the originals
so quickly, like ramshot tack, the original tack from say
five seven years ago, came out of Belgium. Well they're not.
We're not getting powdered out of Belgium anymore. So the
ramshot attack you're getting now is coming out of Saint
Mark's out of Florida. If you put them side by side,

(01:30:35):
they don't even look the same. They don't meet her
the same, they don't look the same. And it's a
whole totally different tack. I mean, it's the same load supposedively.
I don't like it anymore. So I don't use it, guys. Uh,
daughter to bed, so.

Speaker 6 (01:30:56):
Visit.

Speaker 4 (01:30:57):
Thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (01:30:59):
Yeah, and you're gonna have to I'm back. I'm sorry. Yeah,
not necessarily tonight.

Speaker 16 (01:31:05):
Yeah well yeah, not tonight, but thank you for having me.

Speaker 4 (01:31:09):
I do appreciate it.

Speaker 3 (01:31:11):
Uh yeah, anytime, and I enjoy talking with you all
you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:31:14):
Uh next time.

Speaker 2 (01:31:18):
So before you take off, do you have anything that
you want to plug? Where can people find you?

Speaker 18 (01:31:25):
Uh?

Speaker 4 (01:31:25):
You know, I do, but I kinda and like it
all be organic.

Speaker 16 (01:31:33):
But I do have an Instagram page called state Line
shoot just uh.

Speaker 17 (01:31:38):
Uh.

Speaker 16 (01:31:39):
I've been riding for gun tails dot net a little bit,
but uh no, I just I want to get to
know my know everybody and.

Speaker 4 (01:31:50):
Uh ca, yeah, I'm not trying to I enjoy I
enjoy my videos career out of this. Thank you. I
appreciate that help me. Thank you not trying to make
a big deal out of it.

Speaker 12 (01:32:03):
I just.

Speaker 4 (01:32:05):
Enjoy shooting mystic scans and talking about enjoy watching. Yeah.
Well I've appreciate you.

Speaker 3 (01:32:13):
Have me, Matt anytime.

Speaker 4 (01:32:16):
Thank you.

Speaker 3 (01:32:17):
Thanks.

Speaker 16 (01:32:18):
I'm want to get hurt of bed and I hoped
to be on your podcast again.

Speaker 4 (01:32:23):
It was not talking to everybody, but go now every
good night, Thanks guys. Bill.

Speaker 2 (01:32:32):
So, Steve, I have a question for you. Okay, I
have a box in my hand, so it's one of
these boxes.

Speaker 1 (01:32:41):
Okay, yep, got it.

Speaker 2 (01:32:45):
I ran into an issue with the last box I
had where I shot the first couple rounds and then
immediately shot the entire box.

Speaker 3 (01:32:56):
Because it shot so nicely and it was just so pleasant.

Speaker 2 (01:33:00):
Again, this is going and talking about how cool forty
five COLT is based on my knowledge of firearms and
termina ballistics, more specifically, based on that little flat tip
of this forty five well, you know what, it's just
about as big as my thirty two.

Speaker 3 (01:33:15):
H and R mag. It seems like this could be
a very viable defensive round. As a matter of factur
this is thirty two h and R Mag plus because
if you look, they're the same almost.

Speaker 1 (01:33:29):
Almost kind of sort of roughly but not really. Yea,
but yeah, that I like thee the I like the
analogy that Brian with Why did I think it was
on the forty five Cult episode? He said, you know,
I mean the original Cult loads round seven to fifty
put a lot of people in boothill. Yep, you know

(01:33:50):
that was And now they call it the cowboy load. Yeah,
so you know it's like a lot of cowboy loads.
You'll put a lot of people in bootthill. Granted they
didn't have the medical you know it's back then, but
still it's like, what else do you want?

Speaker 2 (01:34:05):
Well, what's the velocity you're getting on out of these?
Out of like a four set barrel?

Speaker 1 (01:34:09):
Seven fifty?

Speaker 15 (01:34:10):
Okay, do you shoot powder forty five?

Speaker 1 (01:34:14):
I do?

Speaker 7 (01:34:16):
I shoot quite a bit of a hab shot, quite
a bit of that as well as smoke.

Speaker 15 (01:34:20):
Was what losses are you getting out of a full
load of.

Speaker 7 (01:34:23):
Black powder over a thousand fifty?

Speaker 15 (01:34:27):
Uh huh?

Speaker 19 (01:34:29):
So the these seven hundred grains or seven hundred feet
per second loads that the manufacturers are putting.

Speaker 3 (01:34:36):
Out are more and more like a scofield equivalent.

Speaker 19 (01:34:40):
They're built with abundance of caution because the original loads
were saucy very much.

Speaker 7 (01:34:46):
So the tent must be able to put a horse down,
and then got stuff forty of three f basically in
there and it went off in the thirty eight thousand?

Speaker 1 (01:34:56):
Was it the original load around seven to fifty? I
mean that's what I was reading back in eighteen hundreds,
eighteen sixties, eighteen seventies. Whenever it was you.

Speaker 19 (01:35:04):
Got to you got too forty five cartridges that you
have to look at with that, the forty five Scofield
and the forty five cult Okay, because it became the
forty five government.

Speaker 15 (01:35:16):
The forty five government was forty five seventy. If I understand.

Speaker 17 (01:35:22):
That load was the Scofield, they went to one carters
that way, they didn't mix them up because.

Speaker 15 (01:35:27):
Okay, I was getting there, but the name threw me
off for a second.

Speaker 13 (01:35:32):
Yeah, So another thing to consider, there's the efficacy of
black powder varies wildly.

Speaker 12 (01:35:45):
You can't just simply say black powder.

Speaker 13 (01:35:47):
You know, you look at you know, go X versus
Swiss versus whatever. You can load the exact same volumetric
amount of powder and the results that you obtained will
be wildly different versus some thing that you make or
you know otherwise. So it's not nearly as consistent as

(01:36:07):
modern smokeless manufacturings. So that was accounted for a lot
of that wide variety of velocities that people would see.

Speaker 7 (01:36:19):
So back to the previous point with the Colt stuff.
So the Scofield that was twenty eight grains of black
powder behind with a two point thirty on top and
we had eighteen seventy three single action armies and then
later had Top. Brake, Smith and Wessons were Scofields, and
the Scofield rim was too big to fit inside the

(01:36:42):
forty five cult single action army. So the forty five
short Cult or forty five Government was essentially a Scofield
link cartridge with the forty five Colt case head the cartridge.

Speaker 6 (01:36:54):
Rim on it.

Speaker 7 (01:36:54):
And so that's why there is indeed, and I've seen
boxes original boxes to say forty five short Cult or Government, I've.

Speaker 17 (01:37:01):
Never seen the short so that the government I can
understand that I've never I've never, personally never owned a Scofield.
I've owned several forty five Colt revolvers over the years,
but you came before it. But it's I thought it
was a great idea for the shorter cartridge. You'd made
it universal, so I didn't get mixed up, and guys

(01:37:23):
that had score fields didn't get the long cold and
not be able to load it and shoot it. So
that's what the military logistics of that stuff. We do know
how the military works today, and it's the same way
back then. Logistics people didn't know what one cartridge was
from another, and so I'm sure that that happened, you
guys who got the wrong AMMO for the wrong guys.

Speaker 1 (01:37:45):
Guessing that's where the turn long cult came from. A
differentiate between Colt and Scofield. Yea.

Speaker 6 (01:37:51):
Even though people say there was never a short Colt,
there actually was.

Speaker 4 (01:37:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 17 (01:37:54):
Yeah, never officially. I never saw you said you've seen
brassets at thirty short.

Speaker 3 (01:38:01):
The box, the original.

Speaker 15 (01:38:03):
Box that was in a collection. It's a short Cold.

Speaker 3 (01:38:09):
That box is at his house.

Speaker 1 (01:38:11):
No, it's not. In mind.

Speaker 19 (01:38:13):
If you look at Mike Venturino's got the book Shooting
Old West six Guns, he actually has pictures of it
in there, of the forty five Long Cult, the forty
five Snowfield and then a forty five short. He does
a little section on all of this. So yeah, it's
it's the real deal.

Speaker 7 (01:38:33):
Interesting Also, interestingly forty five Colt as well with lead
bullets and anything that's in those velocities with lead bullets.
We have a tendency to want to make everything hard
cast these days. In the reality of this situation, unless
you're driving the thing to Ungot, you know the Jesus velocities, right,

(01:38:54):
you don't need a hard cast bullet to either avoid
letting or to perform, And so most of my casting
is actually lead in ten and that's it. So I'll
run thirty to one, twenty to one or sixteen to
one and sixteen to one. The Elmer Keith alloy, which
is also quite common for things like forty five to

(01:39:15):
seventy five factory ammunition back in the day and forty
four WCF factory ammunition that sixteen to one lead to
ten holds together at over fifteen hundred feet per second
for me and actually deforms without being brittle in the target,
but not too much, I mean, just you can play
with velocity in that alloy, like with an on softer game.

(01:39:36):
You can end up with a three quarter or an
inch funnel diameter on a thirty to one five hundred
grain paper patch bullet in a white tail if you're
run it, you know, lengthwise through the critter unfortunate critter
at that point, so it expands. It just depends on
what velocity you want to hit there, so you can
get great bullet performance. Same thing with pistol stuff out

(01:39:56):
of the forty five cold if you're running nine hundred
feet per second out of a twenty one twenty to
one bullet.

Speaker 1 (01:40:02):
It flattens out.

Speaker 6 (01:40:06):
And doesn't need a hollow point to do it.

Speaker 19 (01:40:08):
Amazingly, I think the actual the original design actually had
a hollow base, didn't.

Speaker 6 (01:40:14):
That Yeah, they did.

Speaker 3 (01:40:17):
That was the for two of them.

Speaker 17 (01:40:19):
A cant for different rifling sizes and different bore sizes
because they weren't very consistent with it.

Speaker 19 (01:40:24):
As we mold on buffalo arms right now. That is
tempting to me, But I don't need another mold.

Speaker 6 (01:40:31):
Yeah, I don't cast.

Speaker 17 (01:40:32):
That's one thing I've never got into is casting bullets.
I might commercial bullets or buddies that will make bullets
for me who do cast and give them to me.

Speaker 6 (01:40:39):
That's the way that I get my bullets for it.
But it's interesting. We had a question from one of
our listeners.

Speaker 17 (01:40:46):
Yes, whenever we go right up, he wants to know
from all of us, what's the best way for a
new person to get into reloading. Specifically forty five colt
and thirty eight three fifty seven.

Speaker 2 (01:41:01):
So if you're going to stock up on a powder
is there, what would be your recommendations? Forty four special,
thirty eight and three fifty seven two one and it's
clearly three fifty seven sig not magnum what.

Speaker 3 (01:41:19):
It's forty four SAPs. Yeah for soon.

Speaker 7 (01:41:22):
So to get in to get into reloading, the first
thing you should do is one either find a mentor
is a great way to do that that knows what's
going on, or to read as many resources as you
possibly can. There's a it's not like the dark Ages before,
and you just kind of had to find read the
front couple pages of reloading manual and.

Speaker 12 (01:41:41):
Hope you could figure it out.

Speaker 7 (01:41:42):
There are a ton of resources on how to do
that specifically, and I'm sure we could gather up some
some links to some some good resources to be able
to do that. But there's a ton of good reference material.
Read all that first, look at that, ask some questions
and figure some things out. And then you have to
figure out what you really want to do with the

(01:42:06):
reloading side of things. And people say to start with
a single stage. It's it's actually I think if you're
trying to do mostly pistol stuff, you might want to
start with a an Ril five fifty B, or you
might want to start with a turret press, at least
in the idea of being able to spin some things
around and work through complete rounds of ammunition with the

(01:42:28):
dies as you're tweaking things to figure things out, and
then come back and I have to go.

Speaker 4 (01:42:32):
Through the whole thing.

Speaker 7 (01:42:33):
Single stages are frustrating for that. You don't need the
precision of a single stage for you know.

Speaker 1 (01:42:38):
Kind of.

Speaker 7 (01:42:40):
Concentricity for having an ammunition. So turret press is a
great way to do some of that. There's some great
kits out there that'll start you off at the basic
Lineman you know, the Lineman turt Tmag turret press kit
is what I started on back in the day. My
dad had one when I was twelve, and then I
bought one when I left the house.

Speaker 4 (01:42:59):
That kind of thing.

Speaker 7 (01:43:00):
It's not the end all be all by any stretch
of the imagination, but it'll get you get your reloading
good ammunition and be able.

Speaker 3 (01:43:07):
To figure out what you want to do from there.

Speaker 17 (01:43:09):
So if for those they're listening, turret press versus single
stay single stage, one die is in one spot and
you have to change the dyes out. A turret press
has multiple dyes on it and literally you turn a
handle and it rotates around to the various dyes that
you need. I say, I would recommend buying a really
good horn and Day or spear reloading manual or alignment

(01:43:31):
reloading manual and read it, really read it, because it
explains all what you need to do for reloading and
be able to go from there. I agree on the
two thirty one powder. That's all I use. I mean,
I have two ninety six for magnums if I load it.
But I even load my magnums down light with two
thirty one and it works just fine. That's my that's

(01:43:52):
my go to powder has been for gosh, almost forty
years now. However long two thirty one has been out,
I've used it, and I have a point, some of
you guys. I have a bunch of two thirty one.
I'm not going to run out of two thirty one anytimes.
I'll be dead before I run out of two thirty
one if I loaded every day. So but that's that's
a good way to start, and it's a good universal powder.

(01:44:14):
Bullets are just and go. I go with factory bullets
to start with and get a horn to day and
a spear or any number of mats. Gosh, so many
different ones out there. Oregon and rim Rock, those were
all good bullets, pretty good have the weight that we

(01:44:37):
meet the loading manual, and then you can start experimenting
from there once you get some experience down to stay
with light loads, start out with lightloads, and work your
way up to get underloaded up.

Speaker 6 (01:44:47):
That's how I would start it.

Speaker 13 (01:44:50):
What I would say for somebody who's looking to stock
up on powder just from my somewhat unique slant, but
my big concern these days is availability. Like locally, I
haven't seen a pound of two thirty one in five years.
So what I would say is go to three stores

(01:45:10):
that are by you see what they have as far
as pistol powder offerings, and pick one of those powders
that all three of them has all the time, and
stock that powder deep. Because there's nothing more annoying than
having worked up all your loads with two thirty one
and not being able to find it because it's it's

(01:45:32):
not carried regionally or you know whatever.

Speaker 12 (01:45:34):
And you know I've been.

Speaker 13 (01:45:35):
Doing the same thing because when I started loading kind
of my go two powders were two thirty one bullseye
and unique. You know for all handgun cartridges pretty much
except maghum handgun calibers. So I've always had a lot
of those three powders, and I have a lot of
those three powders.

Speaker 12 (01:45:56):
But like I said, I haven't seen a pound of.

Speaker 13 (01:45:58):
Two thirty one locally in a long long time, and
it's been longer than that since I've seen a pand
of unique locally.

Speaker 12 (01:46:07):
What I do see is Hodgen type group. So I've
started stockpiling some Hodgen tighte group.

Speaker 13 (01:46:13):
Even though it's not a powder that I use, because
it's generally always available with at one of three local
outlets that I have for it.

Speaker 12 (01:46:23):
So for me, it's not just about.

Speaker 13 (01:46:25):
What powder will WoT work well, it's also about what
powder can I actually get because of what my local
resources carry, So I would consider that also as you're
looking to stockpile.

Speaker 1 (01:46:37):
Of curiosity, you can use type. You can use type
group for all four of those calibers.

Speaker 3 (01:46:43):
So Gary, for you, what do you consider local? One
hundred miles.

Speaker 12 (01:46:50):
Probably two? Yeah, okay, yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:46:55):
I have not bought powder in a retail store.

Speaker 17 (01:46:58):
I cannot remember the last time I go online and
by it and I pay the hands match shipping fee.
I just bought it in bulk in that way that
I don't have to only have to pay it once,
but you can buy you can find powder online. I
have not BODY two thirty one or even looked at
it because I don't need to, so I don't know
if it's available or not right now.

Speaker 6 (01:47:16):
Remember h HP three eighty is also the same H
or through thirty.

Speaker 17 (01:47:21):
HB thirty eight is the same as three one, So
it's it's both those are good powders.

Speaker 13 (01:47:27):
Yeah, and I do see HP thirty HP thirty. It's
one I see all the time. And tight group is
one that I see all the time, and every time
I go to a store with powder, I check it
because it's always forefront in my mind is what powders
are available, what primers are available, what's really like. For
a while, we went through a dry spell where I
didn't see large rifle primers for two years, right, you know, locally,

(01:47:47):
So I was always constantly like, oh, I better get
some large rifle primers, you know, because they're in they're
in short supply.

Speaker 14 (01:47:53):
So again I come at it from a little different slant.

Speaker 13 (01:47:57):
My I'm I'm big. I do not want to out,
you know, I always want to have availability. And so
therefore another example right now is the few Almost everything
I shoot now, I try to shoot cast bullets that
I make, but there are a few things like twenty
two center fire that it doesn't make sense. So I

(01:48:19):
don't know what happened. But Sierra bullets here have disappeared completely.
Spear bullets have disappeared here completely. And if you're at
a retail outlet, you're going to shoot Hornity jacketed bullets.
So I've actually switched a bunch of my jacketed bullet
loads and reworked loads for Hornity bullets just because they're
available by me. So don't discount the availability thing. It

(01:48:40):
can save you a lot of heartache.

Speaker 6 (01:48:41):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (01:48:47):
Cool.

Speaker 6 (01:48:51):
Do any other questions that need.

Speaker 2 (01:48:53):
There is a question asking will this be starting soon?
I think we answered that.

Speaker 4 (01:49:03):
One.

Speaker 6 (01:49:04):
Another thing is to get yourself a chronograph.

Speaker 7 (01:49:08):
Yeah, so so you can check to make sure that
you're getting the results that you believe you are.

Speaker 2 (01:49:16):
And I remember Mark talking about that that Mark preferred
was it an older model versus the latest and greatest?

Speaker 6 (01:49:23):
Well for the for jail.

Speaker 17 (01:49:25):
Testing, you can't use the radars, that's what it was.

Speaker 6 (01:49:28):
Doesn't have enough distance.

Speaker 17 (01:49:29):
You don't get enough distance to make it unless you
said your gel off, you know at distance.

Speaker 6 (01:49:34):
I mean when I did my fifty yard.

Speaker 17 (01:49:35):
One cutter testing, like, the radar were fine, but I
shot it through my standard chronograph anyway, both of them,
and compare to them side to side.

Speaker 6 (01:49:47):
But do you radar chronograph?

Speaker 15 (01:49:49):
We're fine.

Speaker 6 (01:49:50):
The radars are fine.

Speaker 4 (01:49:52):
I liked.

Speaker 6 (01:49:52):
I liked and garment.

Speaker 17 (01:49:54):
I think it's a wonderful tool if it makes it
a lot easier to do rifle stuff and classes and all.
That's what people understand, what their what their actual data is.
So a good chronograph is a definite need if you're
going to get serious about reloading, and they're not overly expensive.
You can find chronograph for two hundred bucks that will
work and work reliably well with.

Speaker 19 (01:50:14):
All the with all of the garments out there. There's
some of the optical ones that you could get for
over one hundred nowadays.

Speaker 6 (01:50:20):
Yeah, probably so, just on the US market. But I
don't know about the rest of you.

Speaker 17 (01:50:24):
But I'm cad Well of course now has Chinese knockoff
of the garment, and uh, I don't know how reliable
they are.

Speaker 6 (01:50:31):
I'm not a big fan of anything Cadwell makes. They
usually find that they're they.

Speaker 17 (01:50:35):
Don't hold up very well to anything that I've ever
used them for because they're cheap Chinese knockoffs.

Speaker 6 (01:50:43):
So the garment at six hundred bucks is a is
a very.

Speaker 17 (01:50:46):
Decent value because you can use it for a lot
of different things and it's very user friendly. I can't
remember the name of the pro competition, I think is mine,
and that's the chronograph I use now. I had a
crony for many years and the LED screen Final or
reports DIOS screen finally started going out on it where
I had to couldn't tell if I was shooting three

(01:51:08):
sixty nine or three uh eight hundred or eighty. You know,
it just didn't It didn't have all the numbers were
not all coming up right. So I got rid of
it and went to the competition.

Speaker 6 (01:51:20):
And it's a decent loader or decent chronograph. I think
that's something that's important to have when you're reloading.

Speaker 17 (01:51:27):
But you know, most of us, I mean, at least me.
I started actually on a Lee handloader. I mean I
just hammered the cases in and it worked. It worked great.
The Lineman tool with it to two ten or three
ten or whatever it is, Lineman tool, I mean, so
many people use those over the years, and Mo've been
around since metallic carture has been existence.

Speaker 12 (01:51:47):
And they were I used a three to ten this week.

Speaker 6 (01:51:51):
Yeah, there you go.

Speaker 7 (01:51:53):
I still use the leak handloader with the universal decap
and die to take all my primers out of black
powdered cartridge to throw them under the lea.

Speaker 17 (01:52:03):
The's a good choice. I mean, they're an economic company.
They're presses are obviously cast powdered aluminum, but they work well.
And I've got a lot a lot of lease stuff
and a lot of the dies. I like the lead
dies and are reasonably priced over a lot of the
other competitors, and you can find them in most calibers
you want to load from the I do have one

(01:52:24):
of the Lee hand presses that and the universal die
for thirty eight special that you can use, and it
does sizing the priming open to case mouth and you
can put your powder charge in it. It's one die
that you can use. It's not you have to adjust
it each time you do it. So you want to

(01:52:44):
make batches of them so you don't have to do it.
You don't do one and do another cartridge, you do
a bunch. I can resize all your brass and then
deprive all your brass and then get your case mouth
opened up, and then you get your powder set for
it and then you throw it in them. So it's
a little more work, but it is usable and I
can take it anywhere with me. It's very portable if

(01:53:05):
I want to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:53:06):
Gary, Are you selling those?

Speaker 13 (01:53:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 12 (01:53:10):
I have them on my website and I use one.
I've used one of those tools this week too.

Speaker 13 (01:53:15):
I sit here while my wife's watching something on TV
I don't like, and I prep cases on that lead
hand press. So it's pretty pretty handy little tool. She
was just flipping me the bird that wasn't very nice.

Speaker 3 (01:53:28):
Is she watching k dramas?

Speaker 14 (01:53:30):
No, No, she doesn't usually watch something like that, but
once in a while she goes.

Speaker 12 (01:53:34):
Down a rabbit hole.

Speaker 6 (01:53:34):
I don't want to follow her up.

Speaker 1 (01:53:37):
Just a big er fan.

Speaker 3 (01:53:39):
Yeah, I've a lot of scrubs.

Speaker 12 (01:53:42):
Yeah, yeah, no, I have. I have a couple of those.

Speaker 13 (01:53:48):
Lead Lee actually does a really cool thing where they
sell reloading kits and it's probably the most affordable way
to get into it via a single stage bench spradded
press or a you know, a hand Lee hand press,
or they even have progressive presses that they sell as kids,
but it comes with a set of dives for the
caliber you want, and they knock a little bit of
money off of it, and it ends up being a

(01:54:10):
pretty reasonable thing.

Speaker 12 (01:54:11):
And I threw a couple of them up on the
website and I sell a few.

Speaker 15 (01:54:14):
Here and there.

Speaker 3 (01:54:14):
But I'm not like a.

Speaker 12 (01:54:15):
Major Lee distributor or anything.

Speaker 3 (01:54:17):
You're not like magpull No, no, I was doing.

Speaker 13 (01:54:22):
I don't see a fifty seventy on the wall there
yet we're working on it.

Speaker 27 (01:54:26):
Yeah, some brass magically showed up, So now.

Speaker 14 (01:54:31):
I gotta yet another got rab.

Speaker 13 (01:54:34):
A hole of buying books and learning about paper patching bullets,
so I had to send him some virgin brass for
a caliber he doesn't shoot.

Speaker 6 (01:54:46):
Making you buy a new gun, is he?

Speaker 3 (01:54:48):
Yeah, it's just like you guys. In forty five Colt
for me never would have been on my radar, you know, the.

Speaker 17 (01:54:58):
Cartridge and I resisted for literally fifty years was the
forty one Magnum.

Speaker 6 (01:55:02):
I just didn't want to get into another caliber.

Speaker 17 (01:55:05):
I didn't, But then I finally bought a fifty eight
and I'm so sad that I didn't get into it earlier.

Speaker 6 (01:55:12):
It is such a cool cartridge.

Speaker 17 (01:55:14):
I really enjoy reloading it, and it's just very accurate
for it. No matter what I loaded with, it seems
to shoot no matter what bullet weight. I got one
to eighty five's to fifteen's and they shoot exactly the
same place out of my Model fifty eight.

Speaker 6 (01:55:30):
I have no complaints with it. I think I had
velocity testing for my loads. I think I did like
eighteen different loads.

Speaker 17 (01:55:42):
So I shot five as ten cartridge depending on what
I was doing, and at my target ten yards away.

Speaker 6 (01:55:49):
In the same target, I had all of them in
a fifty cent piece.

Speaker 17 (01:55:52):
Every hole went through a fifty cent piece at ten
yard I matter what the bullet weight was, it was awesome.

Speaker 6 (01:55:57):
I went like, Wow, I can't get my thirty eighth
to do this. Forty one is pretty cool. So I
learned that have.

Speaker 1 (01:56:04):
You ever p engaged a forty one cylinder first? And
they're all forty one? It's like the tooling doesn't get
wore out because they don't make very many forty one magnums.

Speaker 3 (01:56:15):
Makes sense, I.

Speaker 1 (01:56:17):
Mean, I don't know, I'm just guessing on it, but
it's like, I mean, I've never I pengaged a lot
of forty one magnums. I've never had anyone that was
whacked out. They're all tight throats coming out of them cylinders.

Speaker 17 (01:56:28):
And I found my Ruger Blackhawking for the forty five
cold cylinder. The bullet or the chamber throats were very varying,
so I could not same load loaded in different chambers,
wouldn't chamber and so I'm going to send it to
why and have him clean those out for me when
I get done with my testing. Right now, I'm just

(01:56:50):
using two cylinders to stay consistent.

Speaker 6 (01:56:53):
When I'm doing it with. That's kind of a penny
ass to be able to do it.

Speaker 1 (01:56:57):
So I had some something. I get responses from the
emails or phone calls sometimes on the some of the
revolver forums or the stuff on Facebook. It's when I
do my loads and list them on the website. I

(01:57:19):
list the velocities and people are saying, hey, i'm testing
your loads here and I'm not getting the same velocity
as you're testing. The first thing I always say is
what's your elevation?

Speaker 15 (01:57:30):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:57:31):
What's that guy doing anything? I said, big deal, a lot.
I'll send I'm at about twenty three hundred here, twenty
three and I send some stuff to test, like Brian
or Darrell. They're down there in Oklahoma or Chuck Haggar Daring, Kansas,
and they're looking at anywhere from one hundred one hundred

(01:57:51):
and fifty feet a second difference based on and then
you have so then you got, First of all, you
got elevation. Then you have revolvers are huge pressure bleed
offs huge, huge, huge, so many different variables. First of all,
you got the cylinder itself where the cartridges go in.

(01:58:12):
That's not counting the throat how well, how much slap
is in the cartridge going in the cylinder. Then you
got the throat, which is where the bullet exits the cylinder.
Is that pretty tight there or is it sloppy loose?
That's why it's getting into the pin gaging. Forty four
specials and forty four magnums can be all over the board.

(01:58:34):
And you know forty it's a four twenty nine diameter bullet,
but I've seen throats up to four thirty five before
coming out of them cylinders, and it's bleeding off a
lot of pressure there. Then you got the cylinder gap
between that and the cone. Then you got if your
bullet how well, your bullet seeding into the barrel itself,
lands and grooves.

Speaker 7 (01:58:54):
And the and the barrel and the and the cone.

Speaker 28 (01:58:56):
Yep, yeah yeah, people understand as yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:59:02):
And so I said, you got a lot of variables there,
and like I see that with people were testing when
the when the U see the Smith and Wesson Ultimate
Carriers came out a year or two ago, and they
were doing head to head with the LCRS and the
thirty twos, and it seems like the lcrs are really

(01:59:24):
bleeding off a lot of pressure, way different using MIAM
one other I was watching my AMO and Ted's Lost
River and a few other companies thirty two's and a
big huge difference between l crs and ucs bleeding off.
And then somebody had an article recently with the original

(01:59:45):
u C and the u C tie and bleed off
difference on the on the velocity, same AMO, same everything else.
And and so for those that are listening to watch
and if you're if you're little for a revolver, which
one of the things you might be loading for, you

(02:00:06):
may want to check everything all your all your if
you can, if you have the the gauges and such
a do it check your tolerances with your cylinders, the
gap and all that kind of stuff, because it'll bleed
off pressure. And you'll see, how come I'm not getting
this velocity. I'm having to up X whatever to get
this velocity. Well, it could be because it's bleeding off.

Speaker 12 (02:00:31):
It's sorry to interrupt there, Steve.

Speaker 13 (02:00:32):
I got three dogs, two cats, and a redhead here
that are telling me it's time to go to bed.

Speaker 15 (02:00:38):
Oh I'm going.

Speaker 12 (02:00:38):
To have to jump out.

Speaker 14 (02:00:41):
Yeah, enjoyed it.

Speaker 3 (02:00:45):
But Gary, before you take off, where can people find you?
What do you want to plug? All that other kind
of good stuff.

Speaker 13 (02:00:51):
Just MD Outfitters that's my website, MD outfitters dot com.

Speaker 14 (02:00:55):
We do some.

Speaker 13 (02:00:56):
Bullet casting on there, and of course my Facebook page.
It's always a tenuous, funny, dangerous place to be.

Speaker 12 (02:01:05):
So those two.

Speaker 3 (02:01:07):
Places, well, thanks for joining us.

Speaker 14 (02:01:11):
You bet, I'll talk to you guys later, see you later.

Speaker 3 (02:01:13):
You got it. And Scott, yes, you got to take off.

Speaker 15 (02:01:19):
I do it in real life. It's, you know, having
to be a grown up.

Speaker 3 (02:01:22):
Ye do you have anything that you'd like to plug?

Speaker 17 (02:01:26):
Uh?

Speaker 19 (02:01:26):
No, I I'm I'm here because you invited me and
I thoroughly enjoyed the conversation and learned a lot and
you know, and enjoyed different perspectives on stuff. And hopefully
I've added to the conversation and.

Speaker 3 (02:01:44):
You're coming back. I'm sorry.

Speaker 15 (02:01:45):
I would be happy to come back if you know.

Speaker 3 (02:01:48):
Oh oh, absolutely.

Speaker 15 (02:01:49):
Value in that.

Speaker 19 (02:01:51):
So yeah, I don't have a business that I need
to plug or any of that. I'm just a guy
who likes to burn powder and I'll sit and talk
about it anybody.

Speaker 3 (02:01:59):
That wants heck, yeah, heck yeah. And that's what this
is about.

Speaker 2 (02:02:03):
And yeah, I kind of I brief you a little
bit about how, yeah, we might just go down a
rabbit hole and have an organic conversation. And that was
the word I couldn't think of when we were talking.
We have done that, Yeah, absolutely, And that's what makes
you so much fun because we never know.

Speaker 3 (02:02:18):
We even brought up the Magpole waffle maker. I wasn't
anticipating that.

Speaker 2 (02:02:26):
Regtiles and yeah, yeah, Dwayne works for Magpole. Oh well,
he's one of those important people over there.

Speaker 15 (02:02:36):
That's okay.

Speaker 19 (02:02:37):
I don't have anything to use any Magpole products, but
that's okay, that's perfectly fine.

Speaker 6 (02:02:42):
Yeah, I use a lot of make Pole products, thank you.

Speaker 15 (02:02:45):
Yeah, I don't have any I just don't have anything
to use.

Speaker 2 (02:02:48):
Yeah, not yet, because I'm sure they always are coming
out with new things, and I'm yeah, the the wafflees
until they come up with.

Speaker 15 (02:02:57):
Something that'll shoot black powder.

Speaker 3 (02:03:01):
Furniture eighteen ninety five lever again, you got one of those?

Speaker 4 (02:03:06):
What eighteen ninety five?

Speaker 15 (02:03:08):
Lever again, Marlin, I've got an eighty six.

Speaker 4 (02:03:12):
Ninety five? Would do it?

Speaker 6 (02:03:13):
Three thirty six or ninety four?

Speaker 1 (02:03:15):
We have stuff for that, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:03:19):
Lots of furniture.

Speaker 15 (02:03:23):
All right.

Speaker 2 (02:03:23):
I'm really looking forward to the oven mit the Magpool
of Emit. That's going to be something.

Speaker 15 (02:03:30):
Come out look at me, all you guys.

Speaker 6 (02:03:32):
Thanks, thank you, Gary, thank you.

Speaker 7 (02:03:36):
On that note, I'm going to go to the drawing
board and start working on the Magpool of event.

Speaker 3 (02:03:40):
I guess yes, yes, So awesome discussion.

Speaker 2 (02:03:45):
As per the norm, I have no sponsors to thank
other than the Patreon subscribers.

Speaker 3 (02:03:51):
And it's funny because Mark brought up the forty.

Speaker 2 (02:03:55):
One Magnum and how he's been putting it off in
one of our earlier conversations, but a Model twenty five
on my radar for the forty five Colt, and so
as he was talking about that.

Speaker 3 (02:04:04):
I'm like, let's the gun broker have right now.

Speaker 2 (02:04:08):
These conversations are wonderful though, so I guess, and so
it is. Yeah, man, you guys have cost me so
much money. If you guys have, let's let's do with
final thoughts, final plugs and call it a night.

Speaker 3 (02:04:22):
It's been a great two hours.

Speaker 6 (02:04:24):
I had something I want to right out before we
hang out. If we can.

Speaker 17 (02:04:26):
Should have got this earlier, So I'm going to listen
to this direct towards Steve. Steve, we talked about the
leadoff on the revolvers, and one of the things that
I've noticed doing all my testing is that even with
the same cymindar gap on three fifty seven with the
same barrel length as a thirty eight Special, chamber is
always slower. And I believe that is film it not

(02:04:51):
ceiling properly because the shorter case in the thirty eight
chamber in.

Speaker 6 (02:04:54):
The three seven chamber.

Speaker 17 (02:04:56):
So what I'm doing, and I've done a test, I
wants you to see how you think that literally, But
what I did is I took wait for a Magnum
base for example, and the forty fourth Special loaded the
same bullet with the same powder charge to the same
exact overall cartridge.

Speaker 6 (02:05:11):
Length, so the actual outer start airspace inside should be
very close to the same.

Speaker 17 (02:05:18):
I did it for that, I did it for thirty
eight three fifty seven, and I did it for.

Speaker 6 (02:05:24):
Thirty two h and R and thirty two long.

Speaker 17 (02:05:28):
And that's one of the tests I'm going to do
two weeks to test see what the velocities go different wise,
to see if that theory that I've got at the
threety seven.

Speaker 6 (02:05:39):
With the chamber shorter chamber and thirty.

Speaker 17 (02:05:41):
Eight special in it that we're not getting the same
sealed and so you're not getting the same velocities, which
is not a big deal if you're higher in velocity,
But when you're shooting lower velocity, Amma, like most wadecutters are,
that can make a difference.

Speaker 6 (02:05:53):
To me, it will perform or it won't perform. So
what's your thought, Steve.

Speaker 1 (02:06:01):
Throwing on my propeller hat here for a minute. Now,
I may be wrong on this one, but I close
my eyes so I can get my whiteboard out here
as I'm drawing. I think you're still going to have
a lot of bleed off on the shorter cases because
as the bullet exits the case, you're going to have
a point and moment where you're going to have the

(02:06:23):
bullet releasing out of the case as it goes in
the throat, and you're going to have that gap more
of a gap there, say, with the forty four Special
versus the forty four Magnum. See what I'm getting at.

Speaker 28 (02:06:38):
I'm doing it exactly because as the bullet leaves the
forty four Special and goes in the throat, you have
that moment where you're going to have the gap.

Speaker 1 (02:06:49):
Sooner than the case being closer to the throat. So
now you've got the bullet leaving the case or you're
going to have x of this gap as a bullet.
But before that, as the forty four Magnum leaves, you're
not going to have you have less of a gap
getting to the You know, understand what I'm saying there,
I do.

Speaker 27 (02:07:06):
Exactly launching it into free bore even the right Even
if you knealed the thirty eight Special cases to get
a better seal inside each cylinder, you would still have
that free boar issue.

Speaker 6 (02:07:17):
Absolutely, as that's the point of why I made it.

Speaker 17 (02:07:19):
Then I found that the threefty seven binder wade cutters
and the three VT seven revolvers was always slower even
with the same barrel linked the same builder gap.

Speaker 6 (02:07:26):
I mean there's other factors obviously, but that was something
I found.

Speaker 17 (02:07:30):
But I thought this would be a good way to
test it and document it down with the exact same charge,
with the exact same airspace in between as close.

Speaker 6 (02:07:37):
As you can get. I mean, there'll be some variantses
in there, but it'll be with it.

Speaker 1 (02:07:42):
I think you're going to see some some better numbers
based off of going just on the original ols of
thirty eights versus three fifty sevens. But where was I
going with this?

Speaker 4 (02:08:02):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (02:08:02):
Shooting the shooting the wad cutters. I mean, that's you
got so much empty spacer between that, you know, the
into the case and the and the throats that well
another thing I know, I know I was going with this.
You can have and I think Mark, I think you

(02:08:24):
touched on it earlier and maybe it was kind of
went over really fast. Maybe, but it seemed you can
have a difference of tolerance as cylinder to cylinder.

Speaker 6 (02:08:33):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:08:33):
That's why I pin gage a lot of stuff and
I just I threw out forty four magnums and forty
five colts because historically they've had been all over the board.
If your throats are too large, nothing to do about
except getting another cylinder fitted. If they're undersized or whatever,
they can always be reamed or whatever. But I've had

(02:08:55):
stuff on the bench before, especially forty four's throats in
the same cylinder, anywhere from four twenty nine to four
thirty two in the same cylinder, And so you're going
to have, I know, that's horrid you're going to have
again if you've got the chrono going. And like when

(02:09:16):
I am, when I am working up a load, which
I just did some Super thirty eight for Bruce Cartwright,
I will actually hand trickle the loads so I can
take everything out of the equation and get them even
even even of course we're talking about semi automatic, but

(02:09:38):
even for revolver loads. Working on the forty one special.
I did that for Sheriff Jim Wilson and stuff, and
Ronnie Wells down there trickle and trickle and tricklin and
so I can get all my case, all that load,
all the equation taken out, and my chronograph is still
you know, bouncing, giving me dumbers all, you know, not

(02:10:00):
not really all over the place. Extreme spreader is pretty low.
But then I hit the pin gages on them, I'm going, okay,
here's problem. You know, I'm getting one thousands different from
this cylinder to this cylinder, and it's it's causing bleed
off and so it causes the velocities to go all
over the place. So those of you are watching and listening,
if you're if you're trying to get really pinpointed into
a revolver, Like I said earlier, you need to really

(02:10:23):
look at your the numbers of how inspect your cylinder is,
and how you know overall your revolver is and where
the bleedoff points for pressure. Otherwise you're going to be chasing.
You can be chasing your tail and not know why.
You don't have to buy a whole set of pin gages.
You can say you're doing a forty four forty four

(02:10:47):
Magnum forty four special. You can buy the pin gages
four twenty nine through for say thirty two or whatever.
So you buy what three four pin gages, and then
you buy your Fieler gauges to you're at what your
gap is between the cylinder and the cone, and then
you can also pinage the backside of the cylinder where

(02:11:08):
the actually cartridge goes in to see what kind of
slop you got in there mic your cases. There's a
if you've got a reloading manual to give what the
semi speck is, and the speck is for the diameter
of the case, and match that to see what your
cylinders are. And I've seen that all over the board too,
and that will also bleed off stuff. And so revolvers

(02:11:28):
are really hard. They can be tough, you know, it's
not like a semi automatic. You know, I call a
revolver and what I call an open system because there's
so many different areas of bleeding off versus a semi
automatic preferly well closed. You've only got two areas it
really affected. That's the chamber, which is where the cartridge sits,

(02:11:49):
and then you've got of course the barrel where the
bolt's going out. But if you see like an audiom
automatic like nines or whatever, and you're seeing the burnt
side of up a case, you got some bleed off
coming back into the you know, up in the chamber,
and you're going to see that in similar revolvers. I
was shooting a friend's revolver this last weekend and shooting

(02:12:11):
forty four special on one side of the case was
you know, showing burnt stuff. It's like, you know, you
got some clearances in there somewhere low.

Speaker 17 (02:12:19):
The lower of the pressure, the more you're going to
see the brass not seal as much. Yeah, the mammo is.

Speaker 6 (02:12:25):
Going to steal better because it's with.

Speaker 15 (02:12:27):
It the brass hardness thing as well.

Speaker 7 (02:12:29):
And I do cowboy loads, I kneel my brass and
make sure I don't mix it up with regular high
pressure stuff. But I don't get shoot down the backside
of the cases. Especially if I'm doing black powder loads
as well, I'll kneel those cases as well, because I
really want those to seal, you know, whether they're rifle or.

Speaker 4 (02:12:48):
Or a hanging.

Speaker 1 (02:12:49):
Yeah, I have to admit I don't want to knock
my own stuff, but I don't have None of my
stuff is not high pressured. And so if you've got
cylinders an art and really in good spec or whatever,
you're going to see with some of my loads and
some other actually some of those stuff is gonna you're
gonna find some burnt stuff on there. I just got

(02:13:12):
a new night guard the three ninety six. My gosh, Matt,
if you ain't got one of those, you gotta you
gotta get yourself one of them. That's my new E
d C. But it's I wasn't getting any any burnt.

Speaker 6 (02:13:28):
It was.

Speaker 2 (02:13:28):
It was just a sorry.

Speaker 1 (02:13:35):
I The first thing I always do when I revolved,
I pulled the boy. I pulled the cylinder before I
even shoot the thing, and I pin engage both sides
of the cylinder to see what I got to work?
What what? What am I going to expect here? And
then I throw my I pull out my Fieler gauges
and I hit the gap. And then I was like, okay,
this is this is what I'm going to probably expect
or not expect and.

Speaker 3 (02:13:55):
Check a line.

Speaker 1 (02:13:58):
Yeah, I've got I've got my rods. I you know,
I went through the Smith and West Armors school back
in the early nineties when they were traveling around. We
did the week long back then in the late eighties.
Seattle PD and Portland PD was still running revolvers back then,
and they came out and I went through the week
long deal. The old guy must have been well, of

(02:14:20):
course the early sixties. Now I'm getting up there, but
he was probably late seventies and he was lubing the
insides with vegetable oil on his finger. You know, that
was what they did back anyway. But yeah, the rods,
checking alignment of the cylinder, making servings in alignment and

(02:14:40):
all that stuff. You know, there's there's some clockwork there
that can bleed off a lot of stuff and really
mess with your loads.

Speaker 3 (02:14:47):
See the comment on there. I do, Steve, love your
forty five colt for time on the Rain.

Speaker 1 (02:14:53):
I've never seen eight thirty out of my forty five golets.

Speaker 3 (02:14:56):
I know that it's kind of a three point five.

Speaker 1 (02:14:59):
Dang, where are you at? You're getting exits? He's exactly, ha, wow,
I get me.

Speaker 3 (02:15:06):
Entral Texas.

Speaker 6 (02:15:08):
The freedom worms, though, are very tight tolerances.

Speaker 17 (02:15:10):
That's one thing I like about the thread of arms
that you pay for that with the cost of the gun,
as you get a lot of tight tolerances in there,
so you might be getting you might be big getting
better seals with it.

Speaker 1 (02:15:20):
I test some mine out of an original Mountain gun. Yeah,
the original wonder the way they came out in nineties
or whatever.

Speaker 6 (02:15:29):
For your for your listeners, Matt, I just talking about
cylinder gap. I'll give you an example.

Speaker 17 (02:15:35):
I had ten six forty two's ten of them and
I shot the exact same loads through it, and I
got between thirty five and forty feet per second high
and low difference in velocity because of cylinder gap on
a different ten revolver, because each one of them had
some had the same cylindery gap. And but it's that

(02:15:56):
that makes a difference. That's why we talk about. You know,
some of the wade cut are low that are on
the lower end. You can you can have a load
that will work well in somebody's gun as far as
giving proper penetration, and another guy who has the same gun,
who has a bigger cylinder gap, is not going to
get enough ve lost.

Speaker 6 (02:16:11):
It's going to have under penetration.

Speaker 17 (02:16:13):
So you need to consider, especially when you're talking about
lower pressure loads and lower velocity loads.

Speaker 6 (02:16:20):
So I want to show.

Speaker 17 (02:16:21):
Steve this bullet. He may have seen these before they're
talking about. This is a man stumper bullet made by
Northwest Custom Projectiles NWCP.

Speaker 1 (02:16:35):
I've not seen that. They looks like one of the
fasteners on my car. It is a.

Speaker 17 (02:16:46):
Oh and I've got some of their factory loads that
I got before COVID in thirty eight, specially in thirty
s and W and they use this kind of a
combination of a you can see the hollow point on it.

Speaker 1 (02:17:02):
Looks like kind of a hex hex hydroshock. Yeah, I
was gonna say hex hyder shock. Yeah, he's the.

Speaker 6 (02:17:10):
Only jacket ones I found. Everything else they've gotten was lead.

Speaker 1 (02:17:14):
Is that copper brass jacket? Copper jacket? Okay, it looks
real light in the in the camera there, Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:17:20):
It's just lighting.

Speaker 17 (02:17:22):
Anyway, I've got to load these flush to get them
to chamber in my forty five cold even though I've
got a candlere on them. When I tried to load
on the candle or I could not chamber them, my
chambers would get it. So I flush loaded him to
be able to get him to done until I get
my gun to Brian, have him clean out the clean.

Speaker 6 (02:17:44):
Out the chamber throats. They're just not They just won't load.

Speaker 17 (02:17:49):
Anything that's a straight walled case will not load if
it's sticking out of the case.

Speaker 6 (02:17:54):
So I have to flush load all my what do
you think.

Speaker 17 (02:17:58):
The round noose or you know some of the want
that or I can get it to do it but
not that not that loaded. There so a little difference
on it. But I thought you'd like to see that
bullet because that's a one hell of a different hallow
point the I can tell what happened in the thirty
eighth and the thirty eight s and w is.

Speaker 6 (02:18:15):
They peel the uh.

Speaker 17 (02:18:19):
Edges off and they fragment and then the core goes
in and doesn't really do anything else. It's just a basically,
it's a wadcutter that fragments.

Speaker 29 (02:18:30):
I don't think it's as good as the original hinder
shock will green, but it's a shot. I'm not shot
this in jail becoming to see what it does.

Speaker 6 (02:18:42):
I don't know if.

Speaker 17 (02:18:42):
You've seen the red Ammo Oklahoma City read Cuestammic. They
have a one. They have a similar load of this.
It's a one seventy green half jacketed el point eight.
You want a brain, man, It's got a slight taper

(02:19:04):
to it. It's easier to chamber than just to stand
your word cover. We'll be testing those also and to
read custom marches out of okom the city cool.

Speaker 6 (02:19:13):
Yeah, so we'll see what those do. Forty four specials
here soon.

Speaker 4 (02:19:17):
Hopefully I got.

Speaker 1 (02:19:22):
Doing a forty fours alrighty then, or before you leave
you could just say it.

Speaker 6 (02:19:33):
Yes, say it will stop.

Speaker 3 (02:19:35):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (02:19:36):
Just all right.

Speaker 3 (02:19:36):
Guess it's been good.

Speaker 6 (02:19:38):
I got to jump off. I really appreciate the opportunity
to chat.

Speaker 3 (02:19:41):
And uh, I'll catch up with you guys.

Speaker 4 (02:19:43):
Uh next time around.

Speaker 17 (02:19:45):
Thank you for r ex Sam. Oh, absolutely, thank you,
and I'm glad you came out with a full size stock.
Made a whole little bit of difference.

Speaker 6 (02:19:53):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:19:54):
Looking looking forward to the oven. Mitt, please send me
one yes document we're working on alright, all right, have
a good one. We'll do.

Speaker 15 (02:20:07):
Doctor.

Speaker 6 (02:20:08):
I think that's all I've got, Matt. I just want
to bring up that stuff about to that. I'll let
you know how that, how that the testing goes with
this when I get it down the weeks. That will
be interesting.

Speaker 3 (02:20:17):
What a cool idea too, Just to see it.

Speaker 6 (02:20:20):
What's what's going to happen? Yeah, we'll see I like it.

Speaker 1 (02:20:24):
I like it.

Speaker 2 (02:20:27):
Okay, Yeah, I guess let's get some final thoughts, final plugs,
and call it a night.

Speaker 3 (02:20:32):
It's been a great two hours of discussion. Nice to
be back.

Speaker 17 (02:20:36):
Thanks for letting me come on tonight. I've mentioned I
be able to want to talk with all my trips
and stuff. So I'm glad this worked out.

Speaker 2 (02:20:42):
So oh, this worked out great because this is the
first one I've had since like December, so this is perfect.

Speaker 3 (02:20:48):
So mark, final thoughts, final plugs.

Speaker 17 (02:20:51):
If you want to get into reloading, I think it's
a very useful thing, don't again, don't expect to save
a lot of money.

Speaker 6 (02:20:57):
You will save some, but you'll get into it.

Speaker 17 (02:21:00):
And if you're getting into it with calendars like nine millimeter,
you certainly won't see the savings that you'll see for
things like thirty ath special, forty five, forty five volt
any of the other revolver cartries.

Speaker 6 (02:21:10):
You'll see a lot more savings to it when you
do it.

Speaker 17 (02:21:13):
I personally for hunting, even though I love the handload,
I don't use them for anything serious. As far as
I won't hunt with them, I don't use them self defense.
I use factory loads for whatever I use. I pick
the loads that I want to have and ultimately just
for me for fun and the experiment and just to
have a good time. Like I said, I find it
great therapeutic. It's when I go in there and I

(02:21:34):
had to shut everything off and just concentrate on it,
and it's just it's just fun and relaxing for me.
It may not be for Steve because he does it
for a living.

Speaker 15 (02:21:42):
I don't do it for a living.

Speaker 1 (02:21:46):
I still like doing it. I go home, I mean,
I'm behind. I went to shot and I'm still behind.
I'll go home. I just love putting components together. I
just even when I go home, I do the rifle
stuff at home. I don't do the hunting rifle stuff
and lever stuff here at the shop. I do it
at home, and I just like doing To me, it's

(02:22:09):
it's it's to me, it's it's it's still therapeutic. I
haven't gotten over it yet. It's still therapeutic.

Speaker 3 (02:22:17):
So Steve. Final Thoughts, Final Plugs.

Speaker 1 (02:22:23):
If you're going to get into loading, get a good
load book. The first half of the book is generally
about how to load. If you have any questions or something,
I'm available the website and give the shop a call.
You know, I'm not the the end all of loaders,

(02:22:44):
that's for sure, but I'm always willing to help a
good thing about getting in about the cost. What what
I've noticed is go to some gun shows, but know
your prices before you go. Generally you can find bullets
still in the full boxes, unopened, for sometimes half the cost.

(02:23:09):
You can find powder. I wouldn't buy powder if it's opened.
I'll make sure it's unopened. Do not buy anything that's
opened bullets. You can buy open bullets hanging or anything,
but powder, No, go, don't touch that. But sometimes I
find I'll find stuff for myself. I'm a big I
got three calibers I really like twenty two. Two fifty

(02:23:31):
six millimeters Remington and two fifty seven Roberts are my favorite.
It'll knock down anything I have around my place. And
I live out just the other side of Egypt here
in eastern Washington, in the middle of nothing, and anyways,
gun shows can give you good stuff. There are so many,
you know, if you go to a gun show decent size,
there are so many presses and parts and pieces and dies.

(02:23:55):
And but if you have if you get if you
find a box that used die, eyes, open the box,
look down the cylinder to die. Make sure they're not scorned, scorched,
or you know, gouged out any any stuff that's going
to gouge your brass. Make sure they're clean. Smooth, check
stuff out, you know, take take a light with you.
Of course you should be packing lighted with you all

(02:24:17):
the time anyway. But if you're looking at a budget
getting started, you know, you can get their rock checker presses.
You can find turret presses there for half the costs
and a really good shape. There's just so much that
stuff out there because I think less and less people
are handloading. Some of the people have passed on estates

(02:24:37):
and whatever sales and they've given away and people bring
it to gun shows and sell the stuff, and so
you might get a good savings there if you're looking
for certain loads. I don't mind making loads for people.
I did it for oh Cecil Birch thirty four, thirty forty,

(02:25:01):
Christys D. Fisher, Ryl Darryl, Chuck Hagger, Yes, I know,
thirty eight. Mess them with as I got I got
on the list.

Speaker 21 (02:25:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:25:14):
Right now I'm working with with Kyle Defour on tweaking
my two twenty three stuff. He's a huge he uses
all my two twenty three, both my fifty five green
seventy seven grain and we're in the middle of tweaking
that right now. Because I'm I used to offer just
once fired brass only, so now offering new brass for
two twenty three. So if you want one or the other,

(02:25:35):
I've got both. But if if there's some load you guys,
someone's wanting within the calibers I already make. It's not
that big a deal to turn a machine a little
bit here and there and tweak the powder and run
a batch off for somebody. It's not that big a
deal for me. So I'm I'm an open book. I
I was mentored a lot and a lot of different things.

(02:25:57):
I just like to pay. I like to pay it forward.
People do and accept payment for me in a lot
of different areas, and so, Like I said, I'm not
the end all and loaders. But if you've got questions
or whatever, I may or may not be able to
answer them for you. I don't know, but you never
know if you try. At least, I'm a I'm a
resource out there again. I'm on high Desert Cartridge dot com.

(02:26:17):
It's a high Desert Facebook page, I'm on Instagram. High
Desert Cartridge pretty easy to find for the most part.
I think that's about it.

Speaker 3 (02:26:30):
Cool. And speaking of thirty eight Special No. Thirty eight,
Smith and Wesson, Smith and Wesson.

Speaker 15 (02:26:37):
That guy is.

Speaker 3 (02:26:41):
It's an infield, Yeah, Web, I.

Speaker 6 (02:26:44):
Have both webely and infield.

Speaker 17 (02:26:47):
I've got every continent that they may already sent the
thirty eight sw some of the wesn't mp the Victory
model they went with all that uh there.

Speaker 6 (02:26:58):
And I've got the Rugers.

Speaker 17 (02:27:00):
Like I said in a three year ram that was
Symphanian military that Ruger made for them, and I've got
all those. It's one of my favorite cartes a load.
Like I said, I've got so many terriers, I can't believe.
I just count off how many terriers I've got, and
so some of them I haven't even shot yet. And
that's going to happen this weekend. This weekend is going

(02:27:20):
to be a hiatus for me. I'm taking out for
three days into the desert by myself, nothing but shoot
guns and no testing. No just shoot guns, just enjoy exactly,
no documentation, no nothing, so I'll be able to actually
do some good trigger pulling.

Speaker 6 (02:27:39):
Pharaoh come back with blisters on both my trigger fingers.

Speaker 17 (02:27:42):
I am.

Speaker 1 (02:27:42):
I am a step closer on the Smith and Weston.
I do have the brass. Now the brass has a
right so I'm getting there.

Speaker 6 (02:27:48):
You know, I'm in no here. I'm giving you hard time,
So no hurt.

Speaker 1 (02:27:51):
That's okay. I'm giving you a hard time about how
many volumes of that wad cutter book you're going to
have the time I get, I get done with you.

Speaker 2 (02:27:59):
So the only experience I've had shooting this and I
don't even remember the brand of the m O I
was shooting, but I think I shot it before I
ever actually shot a thirty two long or thirty two
hn R or a three twenty seven fed mag I
remember the thirty eight Smith and Wesson being incredibly pleasant
to shoot.

Speaker 15 (02:28:18):
Oh it is it?

Speaker 1 (02:28:19):
Okay? Okay?

Speaker 3 (02:28:21):
And so would you classify it close to a like
a thirty two long, Well.

Speaker 17 (02:28:25):
It's velocity somewhere in the area around six fifty to
seven hundred, depending on the load you get. You can
actually buy some that's at less than that to one
forty six screen bullet. Your gun was actually made for
two hundred grain bullets. Yeah, and nobody loads.

Speaker 6 (02:28:39):
Those right now.

Speaker 17 (02:28:41):
I guess that's not sure. There's a couple of companies
that will specialize load them. I think ten X does
them occasionally.

Speaker 6 (02:28:48):
And it's a good gun.

Speaker 17 (02:28:49):
But the one forty six will shoot different point of
any point of any point of impact most of the time.

Speaker 4 (02:28:54):
That's what I found.

Speaker 17 (02:28:54):
At least I load two hundred grains in mine with
two grains two thirty one, I'm getting about five eighty
out of them.

Speaker 6 (02:29:03):
But they do hit the sites, which is a nice
thing about it. But they're just funny as to shoot.
I like them there.

Speaker 17 (02:29:09):
They are well, and it's we've talked about this. It
was the first small caliber gun designed specifically for self defense,
which is why it became so popular, and it's been
used eighteen seventy four. It's been used for shooting people
all over the country. And I mentioned in a post
I did. I've met elmer Keith even saying it was

(02:29:32):
a damn good load. It's not what he would use
for self defense, but he'd been used in a lot
of gunfights successfully, and so he really liked the cartridge
and he was sorry he sold the thirty at smwe
had which an old top break.

Speaker 3 (02:29:45):
That's interesting.

Speaker 17 (02:29:46):
I found that interesting that elmer Keith, mister Bigmore got
to have wighams thought that was a decent.

Speaker 2 (02:29:52):
Cartridge so well, and I couldn't believe and I don't
remember what year I bought this, but it was fairly cheap,
and at the time I saw him all over the
place at fairly inexpensively.

Speaker 1 (02:30:03):
And I.

Speaker 3 (02:30:05):
Wanted a webley. And I saw that and went, let's
see what this is about, and then ordered some AMMO
and shot it. Went this is so much fun.

Speaker 6 (02:30:13):
It is.

Speaker 3 (02:30:13):
This is something I want my kids to try out
a little bit more than twenty two. But it's still
so so nice.

Speaker 17 (02:30:21):
Shoot, it's a decent defensive cartridge. I mean, Teddy Roosevelt
was dan near killed with one. It was what was
used in assassination on him. And the only reason why
he lived is because it went through one hundred page
speech he had and his steel glass case and his
glasses that were in the there, and it still made

(02:30:42):
it almost.

Speaker 15 (02:30:43):
To his heart.

Speaker 3 (02:30:44):
It stopped short of his heart.

Speaker 6 (02:30:46):
So he was very lucky that he survived that.

Speaker 17 (02:30:49):
Yeah, but you know, it's been a decent cartridge, and
you didn't hear the complaints about it, which I find
interesting comparing it to the thirty eight Cold Long Colt.

Speaker 6 (02:31:01):
And I think I know the reasons why we can
actually make that.

Speaker 17 (02:31:04):
A hold on our topic. But it has to do
bore diameter and the ammunition that first came out, which
was what they went to with a inside lubricated bullet
with the larger diameter bores. I think that attributed a
lot of the failures that we heard about from the
thirty eight long colt that that may have had a
lot of effect to it.

Speaker 1 (02:31:25):
So we have that.

Speaker 3 (02:31:26):
Then we also then have the three variants of the
forty five Revolver. Forty five Yeah, that was discussed briefly here.

Speaker 6 (02:31:35):
And we didn't get into forty with auto rim.

Speaker 1 (02:31:37):
No, that's forty five. Auto rim is on the list. Brass. Yeah,
I got the brass for that too. That should be
an easy load because all I'm going to be loading
is just like a forty five. Yeah, exactly the same bullet,
same powder, same load and everything.

Speaker 6 (02:31:55):
It's a different case.

Speaker 1 (02:31:56):
Yeah, it's pretty much just you know, going to be
a done deal.

Speaker 6 (02:31:59):
And my Smith and Onson twenty two for it's a
great gun. It's a fun gun to shoot.

Speaker 3 (02:32:05):
And I still need to get a twenty five in
forty five cold.

Speaker 1 (02:32:09):
I thought you had one.

Speaker 24 (02:32:10):
No, no, what you have?

Speaker 2 (02:32:13):
Oh we just have a single oh Ruger So yeah,
I got a red Hawk as a matter of fact,
we're not on YouTube.

Speaker 30 (02:32:19):
So yeah, I got the red Hawk, which, holy crap,
this gun is just so cool. But then the gun,
oh no, and then the pound fence post with it.

Speaker 3 (02:32:30):
Yeah, yeah, this is a solid I've got.

Speaker 17 (02:32:34):
I've got a black Hawk in forty five cold, and
I got a medium frame for Caroo in forty five cold,
and then I got my h and our Buffalo rifle
in forty five cold.

Speaker 3 (02:32:45):
You like more the the Caro or the black Hawks?

Speaker 12 (02:32:49):
I like.

Speaker 14 (02:32:50):
I like the.

Speaker 6 (02:32:50):
Blackhawk for the higher loads, but I like, i'd like
the medium frame. It feels good in my hand. I like,
I just like to read of it. The Paco. I'm
a fixed night guy too.

Speaker 1 (02:32:59):
I don't like the iron sight or that much.

Speaker 31 (02:33:03):
Yeah, I know I've ever told you I removed the
site of my US Air Force Service Revolver on a
foot chase when my gun came out of the whole story,
and since that time, I've not been a real big
fan of adjustable sits on service guns.

Speaker 3 (02:33:19):
Oh wow.

Speaker 17 (02:33:20):
Yeah, it surgically removed the blade, very very graphically, and
for some Air Force cop and I think I'm going
to go to jail, you know, for everything got their property.

Speaker 6 (02:33:30):
But I managed not to. I just turned it in
with my hand over the backstrap. They tried to give
me the gun. I said, oh what am my recite?

Speaker 1 (02:33:38):
Yeah, but what do you guys do?

Speaker 17 (02:33:40):
My conscience got the best of me. So a couple
of days afterwards, I told my sergeant what happened, and
he just shrugged his sord of Okay, fine, but yeah,
I mean that's that's that goes against me, not to
fess up when I do something stupid.

Speaker 1 (02:33:54):
So if I had to pick up I just picked
up a new Birdie in eighteen seventy three. You nice busily?

Speaker 3 (02:34:05):
Yeah, you need to get a Bisley too.

Speaker 1 (02:34:07):
I wasn't looking for one. A friend of mine came in.
It had a few problems. I fixed them.

Speaker 3 (02:34:13):
But it's nice.

Speaker 1 (02:34:14):
I'm not you know.

Speaker 4 (02:34:16):
I was.

Speaker 1 (02:34:18):
One was that. It was a few podcasts podcasts ago
last year sometime, and it's like I had to, I
had to admit I did. I never owned a single action.

Speaker 3 (02:34:27):
I remember that.

Speaker 1 (02:34:28):
Yeah, yep, did you ever get that?

Speaker 3 (02:34:29):
Deputy?

Speaker 1 (02:34:30):
Yep? Okay, something to that. Yep.

Speaker 3 (02:34:32):
Good, how is that done?

Speaker 12 (02:34:35):
What's up?

Speaker 6 (02:34:35):
How is that done?

Speaker 1 (02:34:38):
It's not bad? I mean, I said, I'm not a
connoisseur of single actions. You know, I haven't owned very many,
so I can't. Really I would be the worst person
to give an evaluation of it. You like, probably let
Brian or Chauncey or somebody else who's into single actions
have it and let them give a good idea of
I would be the worst person to do it.

Speaker 17 (02:34:56):
I own a second generation forty for special five and
a half inch stupid LYT told it, and then I've
owned nothing. I've owned my own one somebody's single action Revolver,
just to have one for demonstrations and classes. It didn't
shoot anywhere near the sites, I mean, with anything, so
it was just a demonstration. And then I started buying Ruvers,

(02:35:18):
and I've had Ruvers ever since. And that's all I
have was vers picked up.

Speaker 1 (02:35:23):
I went down to Revolver Fest last you know, last November,
and they had a single action lou Gasnail put on
a single action class. I was scrambling to have one,
and Caleb is going to send me that deputy, but
never got here in time. And there's a guy on
a local form that had a Ruger Bacquero forty four. Yeah,
and I a really good price, so I grabbed it,

(02:35:44):
took the class with it, and then went over to
fins and dropped off. Yeah, he's going to do a
it already had that that Paul thing done to it.
You know where you can spend the cylinder either way,
that was already done to it. He's going to open
up the trough in the rear and do a triggered,

(02:36:05):
a bunch of other stuff to it, whatever, and just
kind of tune it up slift up.

Speaker 6 (02:36:09):
Ruger is a nice guy.

Speaker 17 (02:36:10):
I bought one from a gal who was a mounted
colboay action shooter and she had a forty four Special
three and a half inch, and man, that's got the
slickest action I've ever shot on a single action Ruger.
And I should get my other wins home, my other
oneter just out of the box factory stock.

Speaker 6 (02:36:28):
But that forty four Special, what it is?

Speaker 4 (02:36:30):
Slick?

Speaker 6 (02:36:30):
She did she whoever did that for her, did a
good job with it. I was impressed.

Speaker 1 (02:36:35):
We didn't in that class was lou there down revolve
around it. We went back that far, I think come
ten to fifteen yards, but I was shooting my forty
four Special stuff through that thing, and man, it was
tack driving ret really nice. That's true.

Speaker 17 (02:36:48):
I'm really the big boys do shoot well. I mean
they really do most of the time. Even if you've
got sloppy chambers, they'll still see pretty damn good.

Speaker 1 (02:36:57):
Good. This one wasn't too bad. I haven't pin gaged
this one yet. I need to pull at the cylinder
off it and do some gauge. But for the price
I got it for, I think it paid for something
for it a little over for Oh wow. Yeah, it
had a few problems. It was kind of dragon the
headspace was awfully narrow on it, and it was dragging
the heads the case heads, so it had to be

(02:37:20):
opened up a little bit on the deal. But I
got that done and it's working really good now. So,
like I said, I'm not a connoisseur. I don't shoot
that much of them. But just like a ten twenty
two and a thirty thirty, every should have one, you know, Yeah,
everybody's going everybody should have at least a few single actions.

Speaker 17 (02:37:38):
I'm with you there, I got them in. I'm gonna
be thirty two, but I got thirty nine millimeters three
or seven forty one, and I don't have forty one day,
last one forty four special magnum and.

Speaker 6 (02:37:51):
Forty five ACP.

Speaker 1 (02:37:52):
So oh yeah. So when the forty one flat tops
came out last year from Lipsey's, I put in for
a blued which is like a unicorn. Jason gets a
hold of me and says, hey, I got this stainless.

Speaker 6 (02:38:06):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:38:07):
It had been passed around for a couple of gun writers.
I guess, and got returned. He says, I got this
one of me one, and I'll still put you on
the list for a blue one they come out. I said, yep, good,
send it to me. I couldn't stand it anymore. Yeah,
so go ahead and send it to me. So he did.
So I had that one too.

Speaker 6 (02:38:22):
My fifty eighth is my only forty one magnum and
I need.

Speaker 17 (02:38:25):
I don't like having a gun and only one or
a one gun caliber, and we have at least two
guns for every caliber I've got.

Speaker 6 (02:38:32):
Something happens when I got nothing.

Speaker 1 (02:38:34):
So this other neat project. I'm doing this article for
revolver guy dot com. They had an article on there
several months ago. This Steve Tracy was the was the author.
He had gotten a Smith five forty four, which is
the Texas Commemorative in forty four forty and he wanted

(02:38:55):
to have a second cylinder made for it to shoot
forty four special out of it. See, that was the
reason why I was going to go to start making
forty four forty and so I just I got one
of those commemoratives for like not half the price, but
way lower than what I've seen them on gunbroker. So
I grabbed it. But I didn't do my research on

(02:39:15):
the forty four to forty The early forty four forties
originally were four to twenty five four twenty six caliber.
The newer for forty four forties that are coming out
aligned with forty four Magnum now have forty four to
twenty nine bores in them. So this and so, and
I going, I don't want to make both. I just

(02:39:36):
don't have that kind of time right now. So I
shelld the idea and I took that five forty four
and shelved it. So here comes A few months later,
Steve Tracy writes his article on a Revolver Guy about
having this five forty four, having this cylinder done well.
They make a long story short. They used the forty
four Magnum cylinder, but they couldn't cut it down short enough.

(02:39:57):
If they cut it down short enough, would make the
throats almost non existent for the forty four Special. And
so they did something with a barrel, and I did
this basically fit the forty four magnum in there, and
that's all I can shoot now is forty four special Anyway,
So I'm reading this article and he was pretty good
with the article. So he's he's going over the measurements

(02:40:20):
that they encountered with a problem with the longer cylinder
since the forty four forty takes a shorter cylinder. And
I had a forty one magnum cylinder sitting down stairs
I've had for eons. I got it a gun show.
It's a model fifty seven cylinder, so it doesn't have
the case heads aren't enclosed down in air, sitting down

(02:40:41):
into the recessed. So I did some measurements and I
called the same gunsmith guy that did this deal on
this article. I said, hey, I did his measurements. You
think you can make this work? He says, yeah, I
think I could make that work. So I sent it
to him last year.

Speaker 12 (02:40:58):
And.

Speaker 1 (02:41:00):
A couple days later, after he got it, he calls
me back and says Hey, I took the measurements. He says,
I can make this work, because we can since the
forty one Magnum, since the forty four Special just sort
of cartridge, I can face back that cylinder and still
have plenty of throat for the forty four Special to work.

Speaker 3 (02:41:16):
So he sent me.

Speaker 1 (02:41:18):
So I got it back last week and I had
both the cylinder and the crane for it. So that's
it there, and there's the cylinder down here. That's the
forty four to forty cylinder and the forty four Special

(02:41:40):
cylinder sits is sitting in the gun right now, nice
and yeah, and so I was able to actually use
it both. I haven't shot the forty four to forty yet,
but I'm going to load up some with for twenty
nine bullets instead of the original for twenty sixes and
otherwise the bullets would essentially bounce down the barrel, having

(02:42:00):
a little bit too much slop going down there. But
I shot it last weekend. In my gosh, it's you know,
five inch forty four Special.

Speaker 3 (02:42:08):
Oh my gosh, that.

Speaker 1 (02:42:10):
Is so flipping fun to shoot. Then I got a
set of bear hugs from Bobby Tyler and slack on it.
I don't know if you've heard guys who use those
bear hugs before.

Speaker 17 (02:42:24):
But.

Speaker 1 (02:42:26):
They're skinnier. So there's the bear hug grip I stuck
on there. So what I did was I took a
picture of let's see if I've got it on here.
I know I do, I thought, I took a picture
of it. I turned the you know, the butts of
the gun, you know, upwise like it's like so, and

(02:42:48):
put them side by side and with a bear hug.
The actual this part here circumference is smaller than a
standard target stock bling Mike Smith and Wesson. And so
now you're pinky actually can be is now useful, useful
and actually wraps around instead of being you know, because
it's on a target, it gets a little bit bigger

(02:43:09):
diameter out toward the butt of the gun or the
end of the stock, and so your finger, your pinky
is kind of way out there, just kind of just
sitting there. Now it actually does a little more wrap
around on those on those bear hugs, and really, yeah,
it makes a big difference. That's been a fun gun
to shoot.

Speaker 17 (02:43:23):
I just I've got one of the new Lipsey about
thirty six is the f f eat and I just
got it and it's got Tyler stocks on it, first
that have I've ever had, and I'm gonna go out
and shoot it this weekend too.

Speaker 1 (02:43:36):
Is that bear hugs?

Speaker 6 (02:43:38):
I don't know what they are, I mean, just what other.

Speaker 17 (02:43:40):
Stocks they put on that gun from the factory, But yeah,
it's it's a really nice guy. The only thing that's
shot show that I found I liked. I said, Okay,
I'm going.

Speaker 6 (02:43:50):
To have this, so I bought one.

Speaker 17 (02:43:52):
Jason helped me out and got me one, so I'll
now it shoots here very soon. But it looks cool
as i'll get out. It's a cool looking guy.

Speaker 6 (02:43:59):
Is that the that's the field in the fields?

Speaker 1 (02:44:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 17 (02:44:05):
It's a great looking gun. The stocks are great looking
on and they feel good in the hand. But the
original u UC's felt good in the hand until I
shot him and then he was so good, so I
can't have one there. But the new rubber wins from
Smith and Wesson they'll feel good too, And I've heard
nothing but good reports from folks.

Speaker 6 (02:44:21):
I haven't shot on myself.

Speaker 17 (02:44:22):
I've got them on the gun, but they are a
new full sized.

Speaker 6 (02:44:28):
Boot grip. Yeah, all way up the backstrap and it's
it feels good in the hands. So we'll see what
they feel like. I'll shoot them.

Speaker 1 (02:44:36):
Yeah, I've been putting them well since those grips came out,
and see if I can get to those grips. But
I take the off of the Torus eighty fives, the
old Torus eighty fives. Yeah, they'll fit on a on
a J frame, right. The alignment pins difference, so they
got to drill a hole different. But I've got a
few of those, especially on I got one on a
six forty two and then got three forty p D

(02:44:58):
that they sent me. That's just a nasty gun. Absolutely,
It's like whoever designed that, I'd be slapped. It's like
who wanted to have a three fifty seven in a
tight anle scandium framed titanium. I've got a three six
even with my even with my my wad cutters. It's

(02:45:18):
a little poop to it there.

Speaker 15 (02:45:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 17 (02:45:21):
My three forty two is mighty three forty two is
the same way. It's it's not it's a gun. I'll
shoot a little bit, but I can't go out and
pract with it a lot.

Speaker 6 (02:45:29):
It just just too light.

Speaker 17 (02:45:30):
That's why I went to six forty two. My wife
bought me the three forty two. I thought, really cool
gun at great to carry. I fired plus p's and
at five five rounds of plus P and I said,
never again. And then I went to the one twenty
five nightclat non plus P and it still was pretty snappy.
And then I went to wad cutters, and I just
stayed with the wad cutter since I again, Yeah, I'm

(02:45:53):
just not I'm too long, too old to sit there
and screw around with loads.

Speaker 6 (02:45:57):
I'm just staying with the wadcutters for the rest of
my day. Case there's nothing I need to.

Speaker 1 (02:46:01):
Do change it. So people ask me what I carry.
I I carry wadcutters in the cylinder, and I have
hallow points on a speed strip because they just load faster.
And I guess about it.

Speaker 6 (02:46:14):
I got wad cutters on my on my speed strip too. Yeah,
I load.

Speaker 17 (02:46:18):
I load left handed, and my left handed I don't
have any trouble at all loading it, so right handed
I do find it. It's not as fast with watercutters,
but left handed, I guess it's I've.

Speaker 4 (02:46:27):
Done all my life.

Speaker 6 (02:46:28):
It's it's not bad at all. And the chance of
me reloading a revolver YEP are so small I am
not really worried about it. If I got to do
a reload, I've made a really deep crap. Yeah, especially
now that I'm not doing what Masks doing. How much longer, Matt.

Speaker 3 (02:46:52):
When I decided to end?

Speaker 1 (02:46:54):
Okay, that'd be tomorrow right right?

Speaker 17 (02:46:57):
Yeah, last week and by the way, later this year,
I'm probably coming up your direction, headed up to Bend,
Oregon to rally. So I'm heading up there for rally
and I'm gonna come up that direction, so I'll probably
be coming through your area.

Speaker 3 (02:47:10):
I'll let you know, Mat, Okay, cool, So that'll be fun.

Speaker 1 (02:47:16):
Bend, Oregon. That'ss just south of me by a couple hours.

Speaker 6 (02:47:19):
Is it okay? Cool?

Speaker 1 (02:47:21):
Yeah, I'm just straight on ninety I'm gonna honest, right
on Highway ninety seven.

Speaker 17 (02:47:25):
Oh right, okay, Well, coming up for a rally of
our trailers. We've got our travel trailer. We're Barbara Group
and we're volunteers for it. So we worked rallies and
we're slave labor basically. But it's fun. I made so
many good friends there and we're going up for the
north West Rally and that's the first one are going
to have up there. So I get to go out

(02:47:45):
myself and my wife's doing the three day cancer walk
in Boston and she's gonna fly out to meet me.

Speaker 6 (02:47:50):
I'd bend.

Speaker 1 (02:47:51):
So when's that.

Speaker 6 (02:47:55):
August?

Speaker 1 (02:47:56):
Okay, yeah, so we'll be coming out on the air.

Speaker 6 (02:48:00):
Yeah, but that's you know, I don't mind the heat.
I live in Arizona, remember.

Speaker 1 (02:48:05):
True, that's true. That's yeah, it'll be cooler then because
it's it's pretty high bends about fifty I think or
something like that, or fifty three here.

Speaker 4 (02:48:13):
That's where I will well.

Speaker 6 (02:48:14):
So, by the way, if you were one of velocity
testing and higher outs.

Speaker 1 (02:48:17):
Dudesh, there you go. So I was wondering if that
guy without forty five COLT is like eight thirty, it's
like what elevation you at?

Speaker 6 (02:48:24):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (02:48:25):
There at risk or something base camp is.

Speaker 17 (02:48:28):
You know what, People don't understand that all that stuff
makes the difference. It's amazing that you have it. That's
all the variances that are there that have effect on that.
People don't understand that. And temperature, your AMMO, temperature outside,
all that affects it.

Speaker 15 (02:48:45):
So it's there.

Speaker 6 (02:48:47):
Now, see you said you do actual ordinance jail.

Speaker 1 (02:48:50):
You may actually so I do both. I did some
down in dirty with clear jail with Bruce cart Wright's
Super thirty eight load this last weekend only because I
just wanted to see what was doing one right and
it it expanded almost fifty caliber.

Speaker 6 (02:49:05):
So I'm gonnap.

Speaker 17 (02:49:07):
I'll talk to you more in depth on this, but
I may solicit you. I'll come up to you and
we'll make some ballistic gel and do some widecutter testing.
I want to do something actualness jail, and I don't
want to make it myself.

Speaker 4 (02:49:18):
I can help it.

Speaker 17 (02:49:20):
I don't have the means to refrigerate it and all
that stuff, so I'd be happy to come up and
join you up there.

Speaker 6 (02:49:24):
I'll be happy to pay that.

Speaker 1 (02:49:25):
Give me a give me ahead of time and i'll
have It'll be certainly be there. Yeah, that's the problem.
If it's in the summertime, we got a short window
doing early in the morning. Otherwise it comes out of calibration.

Speaker 6 (02:49:42):
I'm sure it does, yeah, very quickly.

Speaker 1 (02:49:44):
Doesn't know.

Speaker 6 (02:49:45):
I can do it almost anytime.

Speaker 17 (02:49:47):
I just want to have some comparents and stuff with
the clear ballistics, because I've seen I've done some testing.
I've got breast breast Catcher or breast Letcher. I've got
Black Hills and somebody else that did same wide cutters
in Ordnance GEL. In comparison wise that they seem to

(02:50:08):
do the same as they do in clear Ballistics. I
think it's the hollow points that have the more issue
with the not opening up than it is the solid
projectiles ins. But also I found clear ballistics it is
temperature sensitive. I don't care what they say, you get
more penetration.

Speaker 1 (02:50:27):
They yeah, they they give a card that's it's calibrated
to FBI horse hockey. Yep, I agree, you know, I
understand there. You know they're they're trying whatever. But so
this is this is what I got out of clear Gel.

(02:50:48):
I'm running thirty eight super at about twelve hundred out
of my oh nice, my commander. That's out of a
commander that's XTP one twenty fours and then sixteen inches.
So just that I'm at is that backwards it's perfect,

(02:51:11):
You're fine. Yeah, anyways, four ninety on the on the
expansion and then for.

Speaker 3 (02:51:21):
Anythink clear ballistics, Yeah, it's clearaballistics.

Speaker 6 (02:51:25):
That's excellent.

Speaker 1 (02:51:27):
So I'm getting anywhere between about fourteen and a half
to eighteen inches of penetration.

Speaker 6 (02:51:33):
Perfect.

Speaker 1 (02:51:35):
Yeah, I don't like anything less than fourteen. I'd rather
have sixteen for everything. But it was mushroom and so
hard at twelve hundred that I think it was plowing
it to a stop. It wasn't allowing for the penetration.

Speaker 6 (02:51:49):
But I think fourteen sixteen you loaded it down fifty feet?

Speaker 1 (02:51:52):
What's that?

Speaker 17 (02:51:53):
Would you lose penetration much penetration or reliability if you
loaded it down fifty feet?

Speaker 1 (02:51:57):
I think I think I would gain penetration because I
don't think. I don't think it would expand so violently.
I mean that those look like like an old Remington
Corlock hunting bullet. They were so expanded. I mean, I've
never seen I don't see too many xtps doing that, right,

(02:52:18):
I agree, So I think if I actually down the velocity,
I don't think it would expand as much and I
get a little more penetration out of it. Yeah, okay,
but I just did down dirty in the in the
in the clear. What I'm finding is I get less
penetration in the in the clear than I do with FBI.

Speaker 6 (02:52:42):
Most people.

Speaker 17 (02:52:42):
I understand, you got more penetration with the clearer than
they did the FBI, and the bulls didn't open up
with hollow points.

Speaker 1 (02:52:47):
As much I've been getting, I've been getting the opposite.
I mean, I saw the article that Mike Wood did
on what was it police or whatever, that one at
least one, yeah, and I was I looked at that going,
I'm kind of getting the opposite.

Speaker 17 (02:53:05):
Now.

Speaker 1 (02:53:05):
I don't know if my again, if my elevation has
something to do with that, the temperature I did it
versus what Actually they did it in a in a
controlled room they did.

Speaker 17 (02:53:17):
Then they did it over at horned Ay, yeahland with
the control temperature room.

Speaker 12 (02:53:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:53:22):
See I was outside and so probably some variables there.

Speaker 17 (02:53:26):
Well, I found when we were at gunsnight we're starting
out the ballistic test, it was cold and the gail
wasn't frozen, but it was twenty eight degrees.

Speaker 6 (02:53:36):
The gel had been inside control room and it was
in my truck and I kept it out, but I
found we got exponetration for that.

Speaker 17 (02:53:43):
Then when next test, we did same thing there, but
we're seventy five degrees, same amos, same velocities, got much
deeper penetration, So the gail has it is sensitive. I
think if we go, if you keep it cooler, I
think we get more reliable down Yeah, probably funny.

Speaker 6 (02:54:02):
So I tried to go a lot.

Speaker 17 (02:54:03):
We're somewhere near around forty degrees or so when I've
got my gel out now to test it with clear ballistics,
and I find that it seems to be more reliable.

Speaker 1 (02:54:12):
There's these blocks that I did with this thirty eight
super They were down in my basement and sixty five
degrees down there. I took it outside and it was
forty two when I did the test, and I don't
think it had probably a whole lot of time to
really cool off much, right, But I laid it out
there and did it, and I'm finding it's ballpark, and

(02:54:35):
you know, there's it's not I mean, it's it's going
to be a little different, but it's ballpark.

Speaker 15 (02:54:40):
You know.

Speaker 1 (02:54:40):
If I'm getting fourteen to sixteen inches of penetration, it's
like I'm not going to get any less than that
out of.

Speaker 17 (02:54:45):
It, right, makes sense. I know Dr Roberts doesn't like
it Herey Robbers doesn't like it at all, right, he
hates it. But it gives me something to compare side
by side that you can do with it. And again
I'm comparing what other folks have done who are reppartable
in there, and they're getting about the same penetration with
their loads as I'm getting with their loads and the

(02:55:06):
clear ballistics. So I'm making some correlation there that I
can say, yeah, this is which is why I want
to test it side by side in the conditions of
having actual ordinary jail myself, so I can actually say
this is what it did based on this, so we
can habit.

Speaker 6 (02:55:22):
So that's something thing.

Speaker 1 (02:55:24):
So yeah, I just grab I just grabbed the jail
because it's down and dirty and I can get at
least a ballpark at what the what the stuff is
going to do? I I agree with with Gary on
this one. I mean, if you're really going to be
detailed and you really want to know closer what it's
going to do, FBI jail is a way to do it.
Are angry, but you know, as long as you put

(02:55:45):
it in the right frame perspective that I'm testing this
against this against this with the same media, and I'm
not using meter papers, but at least you're using something
that's you know, I don't need to say this, but
Gary probably slapped me through the internet here fairly close

(02:56:05):
O contrary, hell for sooth, they should say that fairly close.
Oh my gosh, No it's not. But I find it's
pretty ballpark right. If it's I'm not going to get
any less penetration out of it. So I'm pretty happy
with the load as it sits fourteen to sixteen, and
I think mushrooms like that. It's like, I just probably
leave it there. It does. It's very nice to shoot, too, amazingly,

(02:56:26):
that's the calendar.

Speaker 6 (02:56:26):
I've never played with either.

Speaker 17 (02:56:28):
And somebody gave me a box and I made note
that they've actually fit in the chamber of a three
fifty seven, and I went visitor work. So I shot it,
and it does, it will shoot. It's like thirty two
will shoot in a thirty two revolver. The firing pin
long enough. It doesn't do it in the U see

(02:56:48):
as reliably as it does old nosepin smiths. Yeah, but
it will, but it will shoot. The fire finder will
short for the uh. The thirty two ACP, but it
does you. But the thirty eight, I won't shoot at thirty,
especially even the little chamber because the pressures are so high.

Speaker 6 (02:57:04):
But in a three fifty seven.

Speaker 17 (02:57:06):
I feel comple shooting thirty eight super in a three
to seven magnum as far as if I had to
shoot it, and I got the AMMO, it works.

Speaker 1 (02:57:13):
Got these moon clips, I take it?

Speaker 17 (02:57:15):
No, no, because he got the it's got a case
shrem on it. It's a slightly larger rim so it
chambers without a case, without a moon clip.

Speaker 1 (02:57:22):
Try, Oh it does have it does have a slightly yes,
you're right, it is slightly right, Yep, it does yep.

Speaker 15 (02:57:27):
So it works.

Speaker 17 (02:57:29):
And now I have something new and I want I
don't know if I told you, but I bought a
sp one on one and nine millimeter and I put
the moon clips on shooting it, and every now and
then i'd get a light crimer hit and I'm like, that's.

Speaker 15 (02:57:40):
Kind of weird.

Speaker 1 (02:57:41):
Why is that?

Speaker 17 (02:57:42):
Well, I you can load it and because the chambers
off with the case mouth and can load it without
a moon clip. So I dropped. I didn't have moved clip.
And then I dropped a few rounds and they fell
deep into the gun.

Speaker 6 (02:57:52):
I went like, what the hell?

Speaker 17 (02:57:54):
And so I look, well, this gun that i'd bought
us whoever I bought it from, had re chambered for
thirty eight Super and didn't tell me. Oh, and so
that's why I'm getting the unreliable primary hits because it
was letting the brass be down too far on the
moon clips, and so I sold it as a thirty

(02:58:14):
eight Super converted. So I was honest when I sold it,
and somebody bought it, and so they loved it. And
it's fine.

Speaker 6 (02:58:19):
But I just got a bottom of the rescue.

Speaker 1 (02:58:20):
I want to very ens well, gentlemen, I got to run.
I gotta get to the store too closes on me.
Here go through.

Speaker 3 (02:58:29):
It happens well. Thanks to the panel. Awesome discussion. If
you like the stuff, check us check us out.

Speaker 2 (02:58:36):
At Primary secretary dot com. We have a form there
also Patreon dot com slash primary and Secondary. Currently there
are no sponsors other than the Patreon subscribers, and that's
that support is appreciated.

Speaker 1 (02:58:48):
That is all.

Speaker 3 (02:58:49):
I will kill the feed and go play with some
firearms right now that yeah I have. They're all over
my desk right now, and yeah I'm packed.

Speaker 17 (02:58:59):
They're unloaded my trip this weekend and all of mine
are in the living room, scattered all over.

Speaker 6 (02:59:03):
Yeah, the case is not going to go get them organized.

Speaker 3 (02:59:06):
So yeah, that sounds like a good time.

Speaker 6 (02:59:08):
It's gonna be a great time. I love it, he Gellen.
Thanks put to you guys. We'll talk to you right

Speaker 17 (02:59:18):
M hm

All Episodes

P&S ModCast 448 - Foundational Concepts in Reloading

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Joy 101 with Hoda Kotb

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}P&S ModCast 448 - Foundational Concepts in Reloading