P&S ModCast 451 - Common Core Firearms Training - Primary & Secondary Podcast

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
And we are live.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey one, Mattland for here with primary Secondary. Welcome to Moodcast.
It is episode four fifty one. It's not fahrenheit.

Speaker 1 (00:10):
It is just the episode we're gonna be talking about
Colin core firearms training.

Speaker 2 (00:15):
If you saw an image associated with this, it is
of my friend Jordan, who is on the panel right now.
He is not common core. He is the opposite. And
we're going to talk about that opposite and what common
core is and what I meant by common core. There
is going to be a heavy discussion on law enforcement,
but it doesn't necessarily it's not purely law enforcement. But

(00:39):
we're going to talk about trends. We're going to talk
about the past compared to current day. We're going to
talk about cool things that might have little spinny things.
I know a couple of you have even I know
for a fact, Mark has a couple books and some
really cool references that I'll be bringing up. But basically,
the gist of the discussion is comparing gunfighters from the

(01:05):
turn of the century up until now. What's changed? Has
anything changed? I can tell you firsthand experience training has changed, but.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Have the people.

Speaker 2 (01:17):
And so we're going to go into that and have
awesome wealth of knowledge on the panel for this discussion.
My background is in law enforcement. Been doing part of
the primary and Secondary thing for eleven years now. Love
being able to have these discussions. These discussions not only
are beneficial to people listening, but man, I get to

(01:37):
absorb these and I absolutely love it and it's awesome
to have these these discussions, these interactions with these awesome people.
That's my background. I think probably we should talk to
these guys. One of my favorite things to say though,
with anytime I'm bringing up the panel, make sure you're

(01:58):
supporting those sources that you have found to be beneficial.
If you like what these guys have to say, make
sure you find them on social media, give them a follow,
give them a like, give them a subscription. If they
share something that's specially pertinent or helps you understand something better,
definitely share that. This goes for everything, not just not
just primary and secondary. This can be any source of
good information. Unfortunately, right now we are inundated with all

(02:22):
this clickbait, these five second videos, and there's not enough substance,
and that substance really needs your help in not only
passing it along, but promoting it and by promoting it.
That is comments, and that's likes, and that shares, and
again that's not just primary and secondary stuff, that is anything.
So help help keep good information flowing because right now,

(02:46):
when I'm browsing through videos and stuff, there's really nothing there.
There's not that much substance. Even old resources that I
used to use have kind of gone the way of entertainment.
And yeah, there's money to be made there, but there's
also it's important to have some good information because, let's

(03:08):
face it, not everyone is born with a.

Speaker 1 (03:14):
Complex knowledge of the topics.

Speaker 2 (03:16):
That we discuss. We need to gather all these resources
and this is one of the this is one of
the ways. So backgrounds, Warren, I guess I'll call on
you first because I think of everyone you've been on
the most.

Speaker 3 (03:31):
Really Yeah, wow, Warren Wilson. I'm cop in Oklahoma, have
been since the mid nineties, so looking at thirty years,
I'm really interested in this topic. I'm really interested in
these guys. I'm really interested in the culture nature versus

(03:52):
nurture kind of thing and why we're not seeing those
kind of things. So that's what I'm here for. Mostly
because I wanted to one of the but and I saw,
I see the panel is not going to be disappointing
at all. Excellent, thank you except for me, except for me.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
That's right.

Speaker 3 (04:10):
What you can do. He's got He's got the button.

Speaker 4 (04:12):
I do.

Speaker 1 (04:15):
Mark, Mark freaky well.

Speaker 5 (04:18):
I'm probably the oldest one of the bunch here. I
even beat Frank.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
Even.

Speaker 5 (04:26):
I started my career in nineteen seventy two in law
enforcement in the Air Force, got out and went to
be a cop in the Nebraska for a few years,
and then moved to Arizona with the Prescott Police Department
in Arizona. Retired in two thousand. During my time with
Presky PD, I was our range master farm destructor. Went
to work for Arizona Posts as a trader trainer, worked

(04:47):
for another farm training company, and then in nineteen ninety
two I started my own American farm training and tactics
I wish I'm still doing today. Went to work for
a national training organization for law enforcement training in nineteen
ninety seven and just retired from there as a matter
of fact this year, so twenty nine years with that,

(05:10):
and I finished in farms training. My entire life then
have been my life and hobby and activities and I
just live and breathed guns. So I'm very interested in
the history of law enforcement training because there's something that
I have done consistently now since nineteen eighty and I've
seen a lot of trends. I saw trends back in there.
I'm old Downside graduate, got trained by Colonel Cooper back

(05:33):
in nineteen seventy eight, so I've got some background in
that area too, so I'm always learning. I learned a
lot just studying for this podcast because I want to
find out a little more history of some of the
stuff we did before new some but I wanted to
find out more, and I've got some interesting stuff I
hope to pass on.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Cool Steve.

Speaker 6 (05:54):
Law Enforcement twenty seven years. Started in eighty six, retired
eleven years ago. Taught firearms at the academy for three years.
Was on a cadre that rewrote the academy training as
well as post academy firearms training. That's about it. Own

(06:17):
started when I retired. I worked for a small animal
company that wanted me to come on and run their
company for him in twenty fifteen, and started High Desert
Cartridge in nineteen and that takes all my time. I
have a training company as well, but I just don't
have time for it. So it's the website is pretty

(06:38):
much sign up in private training only. That's my background.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
And I oh dougs here that Doug beat in person
with perfect hair. One of the things about Steve's AMO
also when I say it at pretty much every podcast,
not only not only is he a sponsor, but High
Desert Cartridge, but that's.

Speaker 1 (07:04):
The company I go to for any of my specialty rounds.

Speaker 2 (07:07):
When it comes to Revolver rifle, semi autos, nine mili,
I got cases of it. I don't need to bother
Steve with that. But when it comes to my wad cutters,
when it comes to any of my my magnums, my
my specials, the various flavors of thirty two. Yes, Steve's
might go to and it has been awesome and I

(07:29):
like having it because it's affordable, it's available, and it
works really well, works really well.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
In my guns. Yeah, it's one thing.

Speaker 6 (07:39):
If you're on the website and it shows back ordered,
out of stock, it's not it's I'm sitting there looking
at buckets of it. It's just I don't have enough
people to pack right now. I mean people say that's
kind of a good thing that, you know, good problem
to have.

Speaker 7 (07:52):
It's not.

Speaker 6 (07:53):
It's really not. Because we're getting behind and I need
some good people, but not just anybody off the street.
I need some good detail OCUD people to QC for me.
So we're looking so just have patients with us. If
it says back ordered, go ahead and order it. It'll
be in your It'll be on in shipping within five days,

(08:13):
so easily.

Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah. I've been there.

Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah, yeah, place the order and it's here rather quickly.
We're a couple of states away, Doug. We're just doing backgrounds.
I guess you can go wait wait, wait are you unshaven?

Speaker 1 (08:29):
But mettle a little bit. Yeah, wow, this is a first. Yeah.
I'm actually coming to you from Sanderson, Texas. I'm about
fifteen miles from the border of Mexico. There are no
public roadways between me and the border right now, so
I'm there's a lot of anybody wants to look it up.

(08:51):
There's an awful lot of activity here, border patrol activity,
lots of illegal aliens, lots of narco trafficking, stuff like that.
So that's where I am right now. My family's ranch
here in southwest Texas. You've told stories about this, yeah, yeah, yeah,
So sitting in a ranch house right now. That's I

(09:12):
think was probably one of those houses that they used
to order off like Sears and Roebuck, and they would
ship them on the railroad, you know, and then build
them here. So I don't know how old this house is.
I have no idea. I think it was built somewhere
in the early nineteen hundreds, but it's been redone a
couple of times. Am I supposed to say? Who I am?

Speaker 7 (09:34):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (09:34):
Just background stuff, Yeah, yeah, just real quick. My name
is Doug Deaton. I'm from Texas. I was a police
officer for twenty six years. I retired from the Plano
Police Department that's in the Dallas area. And here I am.
I'm glad to be here.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
That works okay, And it's funny how many times I
might post something about you and people always comment about
your parents.

Speaker 1 (10:01):
So I don't know what is the deal with it.
I I'm not cultivating this. I've been out cutting, cutting,
and spraying mesquites today.

Speaker 7 (10:09):
You know.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
That's literally I just came in from spraying mosquites with
remedy and diesel.

Speaker 3 (10:14):
It sounds like even more of a brag.

Speaker 1 (10:16):
Now, oh stop, it just happens. You just have to
accept it. I'm sorry, I understand. Thank you. I'm glad
to be here. Mark. It's good to see you. A
lot of people don't know Mark. Yeah. Mark was my
instructor when I attended the NRA Precision Rifle Instructor School

(10:39):
many years ago in Dallas. Yes, sir, in Dallas, remember that.
That's when we had that god awful snow ice storm.

Speaker 5 (10:46):
Nice storm, and all you guys went to the same
hotel I was staying in and we went and drank
that night.

Speaker 1 (10:52):
Those are the best trainings. Yeah, good stuff cool, Frank,
can you hear me? Yes? Oh?

Speaker 8 (11:01):
Perfect, good, Frank wrote, I also a kind of so
retired from law enforcement. I retired in two thousand and
eight off of a railroad. I first got involved in
law enforcement as an explorer in high school, about the
time that Mark was in the Air Force. So that's
that's quite a ways back. So, Frank, I was an

(11:23):
explorer before that.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Oh awesome, you.

Speaker 6 (11:29):
Know, And I was while Bill Hitcock was in was
in Lark's Explorer program.

Speaker 8 (11:35):
Yes, I had benefit of a really really good armor sergeant.
He was the Department firearms instructure, a very small agency,
only fifteen sworn, but he was a gun guy. He
also had his own reloading business back then.

Speaker 7 (11:58):
I bought.

Speaker 8 (12:00):
Of wadcutters off of him. Once I started shooting competitively,
I went to work for the Department of Defense for
a number of years, took a break, and then got
on the railroad. Retired in two thousand and eight. I
have been a trainer, a training manager, a policy writer,
an operations guy, little bit of everything. And now I

(12:26):
have a little company called SRF Training and Consulting. So
if you're on the high planes or around them, come
see me and I can definitely hook you up.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
Good deal and last, even though he probably won't be last,
because I wouldn't be surprised if we have a couple
more people jumping in Jordan.

Speaker 7 (12:46):
I'm Jordan.

Speaker 9 (12:47):
Been a cop for I think coming into my ninth year.
Currently work for a large metro agency in Utah and
started out in a smaller county agency and just made
the jump about a year ago. Before I made the jump,
I was firearms instructor. I was the head firearms instructor
a couple months before I left. So firearms have been

(13:07):
a big passion of mine for a long time. Been
competitive shooting for about twelve years, so been around the
gun game for a while and just happy to be
here and see what I can add.

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
Yeah, And that's the nice thing about having you specifically
on is I've seen you shoot, We've been to trainings together,
and it's nice to have You're an outlier, that's all
compared to peers. You are an outlier with firearms performance
wise above average and it's not. And it's going to
be nice to hear your perspective on some of these

(13:37):
discussions because yeah, we're going to be comparing. Okay, how
do things start? And Mark has all some wonderful resources
with it, but also how do the firearms play into this?
How have the firearms changed our training? So Steve, Steve
and I had a conversation last week and talk to
him on He messaged me and said, hey, give me

(13:59):
a call. I I give him a call and he
presents this question and wow, that's a that's a cool question.

Speaker 1 (14:05):
I really like this.

Speaker 2 (14:06):
This should be a podcast episode and here we are,
so Steve, take it away.

Speaker 6 (14:14):
Been ponderous for a lot of years, and I keep
hearing about it off and on and what spread it on. Finally,
I'm gonna throw Eric Gillhouse under the bus here because he.

Speaker 2 (14:23):
Made I don't know why it's not here.

Speaker 6 (14:32):
Post on Facebook. Then the people are.

Speaker 2 (14:40):
I think if you if you kill your video, your
audio will probably clear up a little.

Speaker 6 (14:46):
Probably, Are you good?

Speaker 1 (14:56):
I think so good?

Speaker 3 (14:57):
Now?

Speaker 6 (14:59):
Okay? So so, Eric on his Cougar Mountain Solutions posted
a deal on Facebook and it talked about American Cop
magazine article looks at target design hits based on observations
from matches. Shoot House runs in the square range. So
I've been pondering about I've been reading these books. I'm

(15:19):
sure a lot of us have, Frank Hamer and Jelly
Brice and whomever. So let's take a span of about
say I think my audios videos working now, take a
span of like forty to fifty years, like starting about
the twenties up until like the seventies, maybe eighty. I
started in eighty six, so the eighties I noticed the
nineties we started having changes in some trainings there. But

(15:42):
you look at one end the spectrum, like Frank Hamer,
of course about twenties and thirties, He's at toward the
end of his end of his career, and then you
get up toward the sixties, seventies, whatever you got what
Askins and Bill Jordan and Jim Cirillo, and of course
there's a lot of names I haven't named, and there's

(16:03):
a lot of other people in there. And these are
the guys that keep we keep discussing. They keep coming
up articles, they keep being mentioned in articles or discussions
on and on on, and I would like to get
those guys together. I mean, I know they're all gone now.
I mean there's some videos of Jordan and Cirillo still
floating out there, but it'd be great to bring those

(16:24):
guys back to life for just like a couple of days,
have them on a round table, and it's like, how
did this shake out for you?

Speaker 7 (16:31):
You know?

Speaker 6 (16:31):
I mean, you guys were a cut above, right, You didn't.
I mean, you trained on a square range. They probably
look at you going with the square range, right, and
it's like, you trained on a square range. You didn't
have handgun diagnostics level one through what eighty four or
whatever it is. You know, you didn't have all these
training aids for trigger pressing, right, you had the targets

(16:52):
that were just like death right there right. I mean
the center of mass X was what you know, the gallbladder,
the belly button, you know, and you didn't have the
the virtual reality training aids like the old FATS machines
or PRISM or I don't know what else is out
there nowadays. I'm lotting, But I said, you know, it's
like you made it? How did you make it? You

(17:14):
know with all the all the static and the rhetoric
these dayss like you should have been dead but you're not.
Multiple yeah, yeah, and it's like what did you do?

Speaker 5 (17:24):
You know?

Speaker 6 (17:24):
I mean I don't want to get into equipment, you know,
revolver versus some auto. I don't want to get into
ballistics or red dots versus irons that kind of stuff,
But just what was your training regimen? What was your
thought process? What was your mindset?

Speaker 1 (17:39):
You know?

Speaker 6 (17:39):
I mean I'm sure some of them probably had like
a triple A plus you know, personality or something, but
what was it? Something? You know, how you know, the
way you were raised, brought up to be a certain whatever,
you know, and but for all the rehtit rhetoric and
stuff going on these days, you should have been dead.
You should never have made it. You know, what was it?

(18:02):
What did you guys doing back then, you know, in
the twenties, thirties, all the way up to the seventies.
Now I know that, you know, there's been a lot
of talk about some of those guys would have the
revolvers worked over by certain smiths or armors or whatever,
have grips made and holsters done and certain things, and
like you know the Fit Special you know, has a

(18:22):
trigger guard taken off and different things. Right, And but
that wasn't everybody, Not a whole lot of people did that.
And so those guys who thought about that stuff, in
my mind anyways, were a cut above. And so what
made them a cut what made them think about that
kind of stuff? And then what was their training like

(18:43):
versus now? It's like now if you don't you know,
it's like they didn't have vehicle tactics, like you know,
how to how to fight around a model or a
Hudson or a Stude Baker, right, you know, it's like
they didn't have that, but you made it, you lived,
you know. That's was my thought. And so when and
I saw that deal from Eric Gillhouse on there and

(19:04):
is going here we go again, right, talking about square
range and the targets, and so that's so I thought, well, Matt,
you know primary and secondary ten eleven years, you guys
have had to have talked about this. I was saying.
Why I was thinking is you'd point me to an episode,
And so I messaged Matt and he calls me back
and we're talking about and was going, really, you guys
never talked about this before. Wow, I'm impressed. But it's like,

(19:29):
you know, I mean, there's some books and stuff out there,
but I just think it'd be this killer just to
have those guys come back and going, what did you do?

Speaker 1 (19:37):
Yeah?

Speaker 6 (19:38):
What was and their thought process.

Speaker 2 (19:40):
And the people you listen to, these are the epitome.
This is the epitome of gunfighter, law enforcement, gunfighter And
how did they? Yeah, how did they get there? And
how can we emulate that? How can we emulate what
they did? In newer generations?

Speaker 7 (19:58):
Are we are we.

Speaker 6 (19:59):
Missing some them? Is it the generational thing?

Speaker 7 (20:03):
Is it.

Speaker 9 (20:06):
Societal pressures that have.

Speaker 6 (20:10):
You know, I'm sure that you know that's that's changed things.
In fact, you know, you could do a lot back
then you can't do now obviously one hundred years ago,
But what was it well, nowadays there is so much
more distraction and distraction in the name of entertainment or
relaxation versus hard work as a for for a letter

(20:30):
word or well in general, I think a lot of
it is just plain mind numbing. It's just to appease
the whatever's, And it's like, but are we getting anywhere?

Speaker 7 (20:42):
You know?

Speaker 6 (20:43):
What are we getting out of this? You know, I
need to sit there and go to sleep with this stuff.
But I don't you know that anything. I think the
I was having a conversation here a few weeks back
or a month or so back with Chauncey Westerner. If
you guys don't know him, I would look him up
on Instagram. State line shooterst Yeah, he's got his phenomenal shot.

(21:04):
I mean he'll do a hip shot. I mean I'm
not talking about point shooting like the old high noon.
Come out in the street and take a hip shot
at something like like one hundred yards and hit steel.
You know, add it from a hip shot. When he's
firing at long distance. It doesn't take him long to
get in those sites and then he's pinging steel. So
I asked him, I said, what's your what's your training

(21:25):
rigm and he goes, I don't, I don't shoot any
closer at about thirty thirty five yards anything closer. And
now it's easy. You know, you get back, You're forced
into the fundamentals. You have a little more sight refinement,
you have a little more finesse on the trigger. You know.
You you can't be changing the attitude of the gun
as much. You got to be watching what you're doing

(21:48):
and paying attention to what you're doing. But you have
those down and grounded. And then just time behind the gun.
There's nothing that Yeah, there's nothing, he says, nothing that
is gonna take away or replace time behind the gun,
you know, and that's going to be some AMMO. Unfortunately,
unfortunately we all have budgets and anders will I have AMMO.
I know a guy that makes the stuff.

Speaker 2 (22:09):
But well, comparing that, comparing that to modern law enforcement.
If we have one hundred officers, how many are going
to be training beyond what's given because there's that minimum
standard and agency is going to provide. If we go
back to the basic training in the academy, it's going
to be some small blocks that just cover the bare necessities. Okay,

(22:30):
we're preparing you to pass a test, nothing more. We're
not really building your skills, right, And how many officers.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
Then go, Okay, I need to go I need to
do better and I don't.

Speaker 6 (22:41):
When I when I started with when I started with
the Sheriff's office in eighty nine, so I started with
the Park Service and Forest Service in eighty six. I
was riding a horse in a back country doing law enforcement.
I love that job. You know, they give everybody fifty
rounds a month, and it turned out that no one
was using the stuff, and so I would go around

(23:03):
and collect it all up.

Speaker 9 (23:04):
And we had.

Speaker 6 (23:04):
A firearms manager at that time who thought that everything
had to be in full power. So we're running the
old Remington's semi jacketed hollow points won fifty eight grains
and we were running six eighty six is back then.
And within the three year period of time, I put
to an a warnery department because I was shooting everything because

(23:28):
a lot of the guys, a lot of people weren't
shooting their allotted stuff. And then I always get slip
some extra AMMO by the firearms manager guy. But it
was just amazing that I would pretty much was the
Holy One department pretty much shooting all the AMMO up. Yeah,
it wasn't anybody else. And it's like, I'm sure they

(23:50):
had the same type of mentality and the same type
of people back, you know, one hundred years ago that
just you know, they were just on the job or whatever.
Didn't obviously train the Hamers or the Jildie Brice or
Bill Jordan's or whatever, obviously, but just what did those
guys do?

Speaker 1 (24:11):
So, I know Mark did some serious study.

Speaker 5 (24:15):
Yes, you let Dave introduce himself.

Speaker 10 (24:18):
I guess, Hi, okay, as we were.

Speaker 11 (24:33):
Yeah, so, David, I've been doing the cop thing for
a while, not nearly as long as the rest of
the esteemed members of this panel who have done the
cop thing, but long enough to be in charge of
people and know better even though I do it anyway.

Speaker 12 (24:47):
Right, Yeah, I don't know how much I can necessarily
directly have to offer to this conversation, but hopefully I
can at least ask some good questions.

Speaker 2 (25:00):
Absolutely, absolutely I.

Speaker 11 (25:03):
Did have some thoughts. I did not do any study.
Didn't have time to day between uh, going out and
and shooting and dealing with my kids and I have
to help the easter bunny and you're shooting your kids. Yeah, no, okay,
but but my younger one was shooting a coke can

(25:23):
this morning.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Awesome.

Speaker 11 (25:25):
Yeah, yeah, he's he's he's not yet five. So it's uh,
it's uh, get the gun out. Here's how you hold it.
I line the sites up. It's like, okay, budd, are
you ready? And he just he just wants to make
it bang. And you know, if it hits something, it's
fortuitous outcomes. Right, so we can we can segue that,

(25:45):
you know, so fortuitous outcomes reinforce uh, reinforce bad training,
don't they Yep, he's small enough it doesn't matter yet.

Speaker 1 (25:55):
Yeah, but he enjoys it.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (25:58):
By the way, is my audio okay?

Speaker 3 (25:59):
Yeah?

Speaker 11 (26:00):
Not too loud, not too quiet.

Speaker 1 (26:02):
Fun all right?

Speaker 9 (26:03):
Awesome?

Speaker 1 (26:04):
Yeah. So unlike Dave Mark studied.

Speaker 5 (26:10):
Yes, they did so. One of primary interest in it,
I know day or Steve wanted to go back into
the fifty years. I went back over a century in
looking at it. And the first thing I can document
down where there was formal police farms training was with
Teddy Roosevelt and the New York City Police Department. He

(26:33):
bought forty five thirty two revolvers to be issued out.
He was absolutely just a gas as to the lack
of marchmanship skills that police officers had a day. And
so he had a formal training program set up which
was basically bullseye type shooting, similar to what he had
in the military, and he started with that. What I

(26:55):
found was interesting. He picked a thirty two because it
was easier to shoot and felt would be effective enough
for police officers to be able to utilize. But he
himself carried a eighteen ninety five cult long cult that
he actually recovered from the USS main after it was sunk,
and he used that on San Juan Hill, which I

(27:16):
thought was a very interesting bit of trivia. And agun
was later stolen from somehow somebody I don't know how,
FBI recovered it and was returned to the Teddy Roosevelt Museum,
so that's where it is today. But I thought that
was pretty interesting that he was the first that I
can document down as far as actual police formal farms training.
There's a gentleman named al heml Wright. A book right

(27:39):
here in the vote called Pism Revolvers was first published
in nineteen oh four. This version's nineteen twenty two copy.
He was a member of the Los Angeles Hunting I'm sorry,
Shooting and Fishing Club or something like that, which is
bigically now and the shooting range in LA. And he's

(28:01):
the actual first inventor of the Wadcutter bullet, designing it
for the forty four Russian to be used in later
eight to thirty eight Smith and Wesson and then later
thirty eight Special So he's kind of credited with that
Wadcutter bullet. But he talks in his book about providing
formal training for police officers in the area around the

(28:21):
California alike. That was nineteen oh four's whenness and he
was actually talking about that part of it. We had
other formal farms training through the military with a military
rapid fire handgun course which started right at the turn
of the century and was formalized in nineteen oh three.
And it's the first documented one we can find where

(28:42):
a silhouette target was used for shooting, and it was
service handguns at the time, whatever the service handing gun
of the country that was competing in that. But it
was a more of a a humanoid type target. It
was more of a coffin shape of the old West
coffins which later changed to bullseye and the nights seventies
to be utilized, but that was a very course. Cooper

(29:04):
talked about that course in his books, modifying it to
make it faster and from holsters, etc. So that's some
of the early ones. The first actual silhouette target I
can come up with was by any written named Tracy.
I think he was a captain and he designed for
the British military a human silhouette shape similar to what

(29:27):
the IDPA target currently is and very similar type. The
hip zones were a little lower, probably more of the
center mass type area than we would think of we'd
want today, but it was something that was ripped back there.
But they can't show any articles said. It can't show
any documentation was ever adopted by the British, but at

(29:49):
least it was designed and thought for the British as
far as their formal handgun training. First silhouette target I
can show for law enforcement use was nineteen twenty six
and that would be John Henry Fitzgerald or Onas Fritz.
He designed the B twenty six target for Colt and
he took it around the country doing exposition shooting and

(30:10):
also training for mostly state law enforcement agencies around the
area of where he lived and for Colt, and that
was the first formal target which was adopted by the FBI,
LAPD and a lot of agencies around the country as
the first one. Now, the first varian nation of that
target did not have the five X target we see

(30:32):
in the center chest of the current B twenty one.
It had just a big coke bottle and it was
either killed or disabled as a K zone or a
D zone, and also had zeros on it because they
had sleeves for like the jacket and so there were
zero areas on the target, which you know we don't

(30:54):
have on most silhouettes today. So those on the early
things of the coming in there.

Speaker 13 (31:01):
LAPD started their form final training in nineteen twenty four
with development of the La Police Revolver and Athletic Club
that's still currently going today at the Academy.

Speaker 5 (31:13):
Federal agencies got into the game in nineteen thirty four
with the Border Patrol starting their formalized training, which is
just obviously before Bill just before Bill Jordan started nineteen
thirty four is also the FBI's formal training. They designed
a course fire using the B twenty one, which later
evolved into the PPC course. The interray adopted in the

(31:36):
nineteen sixties and became standardized. The B twenty seven target
was the second generation target was more of a bullseye
type target. Obviously we know the limitations of it having
the impact area so low on the target. But that's
some of the basic history that have down I did
some studying with. So I'll turn over somebody else and

(31:57):
I'll talk about I'm going to talk about some formalized
training with the Air Force and experiences with that too.
Oh I mentioned I had to mention one thing. The
military also came up with a great or a great
training program for the nineteen seventeen Revolver that I'm going
to go out and practice and try because it looks
pretty challenging starting at fifty yards and shooting one hand

(32:18):
at fifty yards and then walking up toward the target.
And it was with the old e target, so it's
a big hit area. But nonetheless it was still a
formalized training, and that was from nineteen forty one, just
before entrance into World War Two. So that's kind of
the historic background that I looked at. See if somebody
else's got something.

Speaker 2 (32:40):
I know Doug had some stuff, but it appears that
his I don't know if he's actually here, but that's okay,
Oh he is here.

Speaker 1 (32:51):
Yes, I'm back. Did you want me to share that anecdote? Yeah, okay.
So again for anybody watching, I am currently sitting in Sanderson, Texas,
and so people please google that and see where that is.
So that's that's also where the story, you know, No

(33:13):
Country for Old Men takes place in. But just north
of me is Sheffield, Texas, and that's where Frank Hamer
and his brother this well, the Hamer family worked in
the early nineteen hundred. So so my family's from this
part of the world, and my mother's from Del.

Speaker 5 (33:31):
Rio, Texas.

Speaker 1 (33:32):
And so you know, my my people knew the Hamer family,
you know, way back when. My family's been ranching in
this area for a long time. So so Frank Camer's
sister Pat used to babysit my mother in Del Rio.
And when I was about I don't think, maybe six
or seven years old, my mother took me to see her.

(33:56):
So we went to her house and there in Del Rio,
and anyway, she was obviously much older lady at that time,
and you know, I was again just a very young
little kid, but she was super nice to me, and
my mom was always telling me, you know, yeah, this
is Frank Hamber's sister. And you know, everybody knew Frank
and his brother Harrison. He had other brothers that were

(34:18):
also long men, you know, but and rangers. But anyway,
so Pat Hamer brought out all kinds of guns and
holsters and stuff. I was showing them to me when
I was a little kid. And then she's and brought
out some badges, and then she started bringing out pictures,
and I think this goes to the difference in modern

(34:43):
thinking and how things used to be. Keep in mind,
like I said, I'm maybe six or seven at the
oldest at the time, and I still remember this one
of those life core life memories. She lays out pictures
of dead bandits and dead bad guys and and say,
you know, this is a gun right here that he
used that you know, he and Harrison you know with this,

(35:04):
that and the other you know shot that guy right
there with this, And showing these pictures to a kid,
you know, And it was just no thought about it whatsoever.
There's my mother and there's Pat Hamer openly talking about
you know what Frank and his brothers did, you know,
and dealing with dealing with bandits, dealing dealing with the

(35:25):
bad guys, dealing with bootleggers, things of that nature. And
there was you know, these days, if you did something
like that with the kid, they'd want to send the
kid for counseling and therapy. You know, they would call CPS.
Everybody would freak out over it.

Speaker 5 (35:43):
Right charge you with the crime.

Speaker 1 (35:45):
Absolutely. But you know, I was born in nineteen seventy two,
so you know, move ahead, you know, five six, seven years,
So that's that's that's the time we're talking about. But
the mindset was very different back then. And my mother
was telling me that Pat Hammer could shoot just as
good as all of her brothers did. My mom said

(36:06):
that she saw her shoot you know, many times. I
forget who mentioned it just now earlier about shooting from
the hip. My mom said that she saw Pat Hamer
shoot shoot rifles from the hip all the time and
hit you know, hit things. But you know, this part
of the world, it wasn't any kind of you know,

(36:28):
formalized law enforcement training of any kind. And keep in mind,
Frank Hamer's first gunfight occurred when he was sixteen years old,
and that that was sort of a retribution thing against
a rancher who had tried to have tried to hire
him and his brother to kill somebody and they didn't
want to do it, so then the rancher tried to
have them killed and ended up wounding one of them. So,

(36:49):
I mean, he's sixteen years old, he comes back to
settle accounts. That's his actual term. It was a very
different world back then, very different and the willingness to
use force and sort of an honor based culture back
then was very different than it is now. And the
other thing is that you have to keep in mind
that a lot of those people grew up subsistence hunting,

(37:12):
you know, for the family, and there was just absolutely
no tolerance for missing. My grandfather was very much like that,
absolutely zero tolerance for missing with a rifle or any
you know, any firearm. But my grandfather was an absolute
surgeon with the lever action rifle, even though he was
not really a gun guy. But that was just common, everyday,

(37:35):
regular skill sets that people had back in those days.
And I think you have the outlawers, the outliers like
Frank Hamer, like Jelly Brice that later moved into law
enforcement and applied many of those same skills to that.
Something else that was brought up here earlier was like,
you know, they ought to be dead. Some of those

(37:56):
guys ought to be dead. Ought to be dead. Well,
that's true, but we have to keep in mind many
people did die. Many people died learning those lessons along
the way. And I know that right here, I believe
in the county that I'm in. Frank Camer once worked
with the sheriff here on a raid down on the
river south of me now and some people hesitated at

(38:17):
the moment of truth that it ended up getting people killed.
And it's in that book I'm Frank Camer where he
talks about people said, yeah, I'm sorry, we were mistaken,
basically saying we should have taken a much more aggressive
approach to this interdiction and apprehension. And he said, yes,
you did make a mistake, and there's the result of it,
and he points to a dead body of a law man,

(38:39):
you know, as a result of hesitation. So these guys
learned a lot of things along the way in a
very different time, in a very different place, when marksmanship
just for survival, just for feeding the family was just
a common a common skill that was expected, and so
it's just just a very a completely different world and

(39:01):
different mindset. I feel very blessed and lucky to have
actually had some kind of contact with that. But when
I've shared that story with other people, especially some of
the details of like you know, dead bodies and these
pictures which were not I mean, these were like original
photos that probably ought to be in a museum somewhere.
The idea that two women, my mom and this older

(39:22):
lady just acted as if though that was just no
but here, look at this. Look at that, honey, check that, yeah,
check that out. No big deal. You know, that's the
kind of world that we used that people used to
live in. It's just just very different.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
Yeah, definitely, definitely, Frank, I can tell that you have
something to say.

Speaker 8 (39:48):
Well, I always have something to say, But that's that's immateial.
Just to backstop both what Mark and Doug kind of
were going on. I mean, one of the things to
think about the Border Patrol starting firearms training in nineteen
thirty four, that was because they were getting in a

(40:09):
lot of gunfights along the southern border, and one of
the I don't know if he was the chief instructor
to start with, or if he moved into that role.
But Charles Askins absolutely was the chief instructor for the
Border Patrol for a long time, and he was a
two or three x national pistol champion shooting bullseye stuff.

(40:32):
But he put a lot of people in the ground
down on the border, and of course he didn't make
a lot of bones about it. He apparently liked to
twist people's tails as he got a little bit older,
and so he would recount. And now, of course the
conventional wisdom is that, well, he was a psychopath with
a badge. He had a job to do, and that's

(40:56):
what it came down to. It's interesting, though I don't
know how well this will show up books. Ed mcgivern's
book Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting, there's an entire chapter
starting three hundred some odd pages in on law enforcement training.

(41:19):
A lot of people who are kind of in the
game don't, oh, don't have knowledge that McGivern trained a
lot of law enforcement in his day. I think the
range up in Lewiston is still named after him. In Montana,
which is about an hour and twenty minutes north of me,

(41:41):
but if you look through this chapter, it's not long,
and of course mcgivern's tough to read anyway, because he
just he didn't write I think that particularly well. But
the very first thing that's discussed is shooting while running,
and this is in nineteen what, yeah, nineteen thirty something.

(42:04):
He goes into disadvantaged positions. That's something I think that
we all now in training kind of take for granted. Okay,
so we may have to shoot from our back, we
may have to shoot while laying on our side, we
may have to shoot with our backup gun while somebody
is on top of us trying to beat the daylights
out of us or take our gun from us. And

(42:27):
he was doing all that back in the thirties, and
interestingly enough, with silhouette targets with surprisingly a circle on
the chest.

Speaker 5 (42:41):
Now.

Speaker 8 (42:41):
I don't know if it's a six inch circle an
eight inch circle, but there's a circle there over what
we now would consider to be the preferred area. So
it's always interesting to me that no matter how much
we evolve, we keep coming back to stuff that was
done in the past. Somebody did it fits his book shooting.

(43:07):
You know, people talk about the weaver stance. There is
a photo of Fits taken in nineteen twenty nine doing
a classic Weaver hold. Now, I don't know if he
had tensions set between his two hands, which is what
Jack Weaver did, but it's there.

Speaker 1 (43:27):
Well.

Speaker 5 (43:27):
Frank Also, he talked about that that that was for
police officers after they've been running, when they've run out,
when they're out breathing hard to get a good stable platform.
So he was talking about that back then. Who knows,
maybe Jack ready his book.

Speaker 8 (43:43):
And I lived in Carson City for a while, but
unfortunately I never had the opportunity.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
To catch up to him.

Speaker 8 (43:51):
But it wouldn't surprise me, wouldn't surprise me at all
if he had looked at that and gone, wait a minute,
so if I do this and I do that, and
oh that works, and he proved it all worked on
the range.

Speaker 5 (44:09):
I'm trying to find the picture of the friends of
my books all look at him just saying, here we go.

Speaker 1 (44:16):
It's a couple hundred pages in. I think, yeah it is.

Speaker 8 (44:22):
But you know, one of the other things that always
stems out to me is the volume of work that
the legends did, yes, and that the people who are
really good do Bryce shot every day, Yes, literally every day.

(44:44):
Hamer probably shot, you know, at least weekly. I would
guess pick a person. Askings would shoot almost any day
he could. And of course as he got older and
they became a gun writer like his father had been
a gun writer before him. Some people don't understand or

(45:06):
know that that his father was the shotgun writer in
the first you know, twenty thirty years of the twentieth century.
And he also was an army officer, Major Charles Askin Senior.

Speaker 2 (45:26):
Well, I remember, I don't remember how many years ago
it was, but Chuck Presburg was on talking about pistol
shooting and how to get better, and daily shooting was
part of that solution. And it didn't have to be
anything special. It could just be twenty two, but it
has to be you have to put.

Speaker 1 (45:41):
Forth that effort.

Speaker 2 (45:42):
And Chuck is an amazing shot.

Speaker 5 (45:46):
Well.

Speaker 8 (45:46):
And I take small amount of credit because I gave
Gary Hughes the Old West challenge and he just ran
with it.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
Now every day you're doing and.

Speaker 8 (46:03):
I shoot it just about every time I go to
the range. I try to get out weekly. The weather
appier doesn't always cooperate, but it and I do it
as six strong hand only, six non dominant hand only,
and then six two hands. And it's like, Okay, I

(46:23):
just fired eighteen rounds and I've proven what it is
that I can do.

Speaker 6 (46:30):
I think I think Hugh, I think Gary Hughes. He
shoots what a cylinder a day or two cylinders a day,
something like that, Not very much, but it's every almost
every day he cleans well.

Speaker 2 (46:38):
There's also he also not only does it in all weather,
but he's also doing it naked.

Speaker 8 (46:44):
So on this point, thank you, don't not forget that part, right.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Can be on a podcast podcast, it'd be great.

Speaker 11 (46:55):
Oh yes, I mean multiple you know, Gary is the
meme of train how you fight?

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Right, Yeah, you know I was yesterday of the day
before Frankie.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
A guy can get an awful lot of meaningful work.
Eighteen rounds, you can, you really, especially doing that, you know,
you know, strong hand, your other strong hand, both ends. Uh,
just just a quick, deliberate, intentional run through it. Just

(47:29):
it keeps the machine, you know, oiled and ready to go.
I can't recall what book I read about this, but
you know Bill Hiccock reportedly every morning religiously, and of
course keep in mind he was shooting a capin ball

(47:49):
captain ball revolvers, which was somewhat finicky, but reportedly would
go down outside of town someplace and practice shooting at
a post or shooting at a smaller target with his pistols,
and then immediately thereafter would reload them. So every single
day when he was working as a marshall began with

(48:10):
a short shooting session and then reload those guns again
because they're cap and ball, and so that way he
had a fresh powder load of you know, everything's ready
to go for the day's work.

Speaker 7 (48:23):
Men.

Speaker 1 (48:23):
There's a lot to be said for that. If you
just went down there. Can you imagine if every cop
in America went and fired only I mean eighteen rounds
every morning, you know, six even six, just six deliberate
slow fire rounds would that It would just be unbelievable
the difference that that would be in a year. Imagine

(48:46):
the long term slow incline on that performance, if you
were to graft that in some way.

Speaker 6 (48:53):
There it comes back to time behind the gun. Yes,
that's right, time behind the gun. I mean he could
have all these different training aids and whatever, but nothing's
going to replace time behind the gun.

Speaker 5 (49:08):
No.

Speaker 1 (49:09):
I don't remember what book it was I read about
Jelly Bryce. I've read a couple of them now, and
somebody jump in if you know which one I'm talking about.
But in addition to shooting almost daily, Jelly Bryce also
my understanding is spent hundreds of hours dry firing against
himself in a mirror. Does anybody else remember reading that?

Speaker 3 (49:33):
Eight hours a day? Yes, eight hours most days.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
I mean almost every single day. And so even then,
I mean, so that guy's an outlier, even in his
own era, probably had as best anybody can tell, probably
had literally professional athlete level vision and reflexes. So he's
gifted in the same way that the professional baseball players

(50:02):
are gifted that who can actually hit a ball, you
know they're thrown by another professional right.

Speaker 5 (50:08):
Or throw it or throw a ball. We were talking
about on talking about this thing that you know a
lot of a lot of the ones we know of
Bill Jordan's, the Jelly Brice's, the Hammers, a lot of
natural skill comes out of them. I believe so too,
besides their ability to go out and want to practice
and do what they do want to do. But natural
skill is there. I mean, Bill Jordan, I watched demonstration

(50:29):
of him shooting aspirins off a table and it was
wax bullets, but it's still individual as right across the row.
And I could never do that. And that was from
that was from his point shooting position, which was standing.
He always stood. He didn't crouch. He didn't believe in crouching.
It was also a big man, which I don't know
much smaller. You'd make yourself as big as as Bill
Jordan was. But he would shoot us off the table.

(50:51):
And you know, I couldn't do that if I practiced
for years and years and years, I just don't have
that hand inne coordination. So I think some of that,
I think some of that is what comes after those.
Somebody in our chat group asked about military service, and yes,
I believe military services had that, but military has very
little handgun use. There's there's some documentary ones, you know,

(51:13):
starting your work using a handgun, but really overall there's
not that much handgun usage more time. So a lot
of the training that talk about handguns may not relate
over to their wartime service. But Atkins, I guess, did
use handguns in World War Two. He killed several people
with handguns in World War two and made a sport

(51:33):
of it. I guess yes, And it was Brice Vietnam.
Somebody here who I have not hadvers a meeting yet.
That's David. One of things I've admired on his post
is that he goes out and it looks like he
shoots every single day, which I wish I had the
ability to do. So jealous, I'm jealous of you.

Speaker 11 (51:55):
I happened to be lucky enough to have a neighbor
who makes me seem.

Speaker 7 (52:04):
Tame.

Speaker 11 (52:06):
Yeah, tame. Tame is a good word as far as
his views on things. And I have two acres and
he has a decent amount more. And there happens to
be a ravine with a creek behind my house that
there's enough room where I cannot violate state law as
far as being too close to anyone's residence, and I

(52:28):
can shoot up to fifty yards.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
Nice.

Speaker 11 (52:31):
Yeah, I just have to.

Speaker 1 (52:33):
I just have to walk.

Speaker 11 (52:34):
Down into a ravine, so you know, I'm also I'm
also getting my steps in. But yeah, you guys are
talking about that the Old West Shoots challenge, and it's funny.
I'd seen Gary. I'd seen Gary doing it, and when
I really started posting more instead of just instead of
just like, hey, you know, I'm gonna grab my you know,

(52:56):
one of these. For the longest time, I just had
like a King sign sharpie and instead of printing targets,
I would just have notebook paper and I just draw
an X on it or make a dot and and
set it up and had a you know, rangefinder and
timer and all that kind of stuff and just go, Okay,

(53:17):
today's goal is I'm going to you know, do X
number of rounds in X amount of time or one
reload one or whatever. And you know, I have fifteen
minutes to practice. I have twenty minutes to practice. Maybe
I have an hour. Let's uh, let's dry repid a
couple of times and then and then get after it.
And you know, unlike unlike the guys that you're talking about,

(53:38):
you know, the Bryce and Jordan and all that, I
do not have the natural hand eye coordination of a
professional athlete. And I don't have those those natural advantages
which some people have. And I do get people. You know,
there are people in our community which which make fun

(54:01):
of me and say, hey, you're an influencer, and it's.

Speaker 1 (54:02):
Like great, I'm just you know, Poray yeah.

Speaker 11 (54:07):
I'm just you know, instead of doing things and not
posting about it, I'm posting about it. And I think
it's great that there's a lot of people who are
printing and shooting that target now. And you know, some
people decry it and they're.

Speaker 1 (54:21):
Like, oh, it's just a it's just.

Speaker 11 (54:23):
A bullseye target with a different wrappings.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
I don't care what it is.

Speaker 11 (54:26):
If people are going out and actually shooting, that's what's important.

Speaker 3 (54:30):
Getting those reps in.

Speaker 11 (54:32):
And you know, just because I can stand and deliver
and relatively casually put five or six hits on that
one inch stamp at twenty five feet, who cares, you know,
Let's go do it at twenty five yards. That's spicy.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
You know.

Speaker 11 (54:47):
There's some big Instagram account posted about shooting Ptarmigan's at
fifteen yards and he's like, can anyone shoot a one
inch dot at fifty yards? And I was like, I
doubt it, but I'm gonna try. And you know I
got I got within. I shot one cylinder out of
was I using my forty four Special black Hawk. I
shot one cylinder and the I kept them all on

(55:11):
a sheet of notebook paper. But the closest I got
was like just under two inches from that one in circle,
and I was like, well, you know that's that's that's
as good as I'm going to get for the day.
I'm not going to stand here for like in for
like two hours and just hope that you know, the
cone of fire I'm able to generate with you know,
myself one handed and that particular firearm.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Yeah, I know.

Speaker 11 (55:33):
Eventually the law of average is if I want to
spend that much money on AMMO, is going to say, yeah,
I'm going to hit it because if I if I
can put everything within you know, say an eight inch
circle or tenant circle at fifty yards, eventually what those
rounds is going to hit where I wanted to. But
that's not the point. The point is, let's let's take
a few minutes and and work on it and see

(55:55):
if we can do it. And if we can't, then
what are the skills that need to be worked on
to improve it? One thing, one thing I did want
to mention about about Jelly Bryce, and I'm not nearly
as nearly as red into his history, but I do
think it's interesting that, as you guys were talking about,

(56:16):
he's nearly superhuman levels of hand eye coordination, fast which
muscle fiber, and just the insane amount of the insane
amount of practice he put in daily and weekly because
he could do it well. The suits of the FBI
were like, you know this, this guy, he knows the
thing or two, We're going to train everyone like this.

Speaker 5 (56:35):
But exactly right, it doesn't apply.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
It doesn't know, it.

Speaker 11 (56:42):
Does not apply. And when we're talking about law enforcement training,
I mean, my gosh, you know that's that's can you
check the box? And really really the the unfortunately, the goal,
it seems a lot of times these days, is can
you get the person to safely load, unload, holster on holster,

(57:07):
and can they hit a target? A lot of agencies
only shoot to like fifteen yards yeah, now yeah, and
I mean mine, mine still shoots twenty five thankfully. And
but but the thing is all the shots at the
twenty five if you if you hit, I think you can.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Still toss.

Speaker 11 (57:27):
Oh my gosh, you know, as an instructor out to
know this, but I think you can toss two. It's
either two or four before you hit the twenty five,
and you can just like we I'm shooting up in
the air, don't actually do that. But but but you
cannot even try to hit the silhouette and still pass
at the lowest common denominator level for our full sixty
round qualification course. But we at least go to twenty five,

(57:49):
which I'm thankful for.

Speaker 1 (57:51):
So, David, there's no getting around the fact that there's
a Bell curve, there's a distribution, and and it this
is just my opinion, but with the Jelly Bricees of
the world, it's like, it's like trying to say that
we're going to train everybody. It'd be like bringing Michael
Jordan in to train, you know, the high school basketball team,

(58:15):
and then expect all of those guys to operate at
the same level as Michael Jordan, you know, And it's
just not going to happen. It's just not it's a
not a realistic training curriculum. But as all of us
who've had the train law enforcement know, there is a
Bell curve, there is that general distribution and the vast

(58:40):
majority of cops. And I'm not insulting anybody here at all, Please,
I'm speaking as a former trainer myself, a law enforcement
training man. You know, the vast majority of that sixty
six percentile. You know that that that one standard deviation
out either way. That that's that's kind of where most

(59:01):
qualification courses and most uh you know, most most general
law enforcement training resides. And I recall, I mean, I
distinctly remember having to do remedial training with with individual
officers here there, and uh, chiefs being a little concerned,
especially if they were like, for example, the school a

(59:22):
school resource officer. Uh, they're in a somewhat critical position,
and we really need you know, we really need so
and so to pass this CALLUG really need you to
work with the guys. So, you know, you go work
with them for a couple of days, and then I
sometimes would literally send a picture of the officer standing
next to his target, which now looks pristine compared but

(59:45):
it used to what it looked like two days prior.
And the chiefs are just like, oh, hallluya, thank you, Doug,
thank you for getting that done. But guess what, we're
going to do it all again next year, you know,
and it's very frustrat I don't know if the rec
of you, the rest of y'all have had to experience
that as well. I'm sure you have.

Speaker 5 (01:00:06):
I have.

Speaker 6 (01:00:06):
We have a female lie now you know that a
lot of that time, it's just a fluke. I mean,
you work, you have to work with them so many
so much time to get that what you're talking about, Doug.
But it's every qualification.

Speaker 7 (01:00:18):
I mean, if we had ours.

Speaker 6 (01:00:19):
Every you know, every quarter, so we had originally hey
dogs and dogs, Yeah that's peneless on it are Yeah,
having to do that every quarter. Yeah, the same people
and over the people you know, and these are the

(01:00:42):
ones that you know, we're offered the fifty rounds a
month and yeah nothing. And so it's like I say
this a lot people say to talk about, you know,
leaving the horse to water. I rode horses obviously for
quite a while. And horses are way better than humans.
At least the horse you can get to the water.
Man Me'll make him drink and get them the water.
Humans can't even get next to the water and go there.

(01:01:04):
It's horrid. But yeah, it's a struggle and it's a fluke.
And then the admins are pressing down. It's like you
guys wrote the policy. You know, if they don't pass
blah blah blah blah blah, you know, don't don't wait
on me. I'm here trying everything I can, you know.

Speaker 11 (01:01:19):
Well, and then there's the there's.

Speaker 8 (01:01:22):
The agencies posting on social media because they do about
how there there's warn people are doing their annual firearms
training and I'm just like, annual, really, yes, And I
get it. There's budget, there's all that stuff, but there's

(01:01:44):
no way that you can create a culture of even
thinking about doing well if you're only doing it annually
and the people aren't really interested in being there anyway, right,
So there needs to it. Probably, I won't say probably.
It may go to the idea that in that era

(01:02:08):
that we started this on, it was a different mindset.
You know, people were raised hunting people, I mean, lousy
hunter men. You went hungry. Audie Murphy talked about that
in his own autobiography. You know, that's part of how

(01:02:29):
he became a really proficient marksman was because if he
didn't bring home game, the family went hungry. And we
don't have that anymore, not really any place, not in
this country. And with that and the aspect of well,
it's just another tool, Okay, it's the most important piece

(01:02:53):
of life saving equipment that we can carry with us.
I think it merits a little more attention, but you know,
it just doesn't and it's sad.

Speaker 11 (01:03:04):
So I mean, think about think about vehicles, and think
about the training police officers receive with vehicles. And you know,
the number of cops killed in car wrecks every year
exceed those killed by killed in gunfights. And I'm not
saying I'm not saying that we should neglect training with

(01:03:26):
the firearm. It's extremely important, like Frank just said. However,
that's another area where we have that lowest common denominator. Hey,
can you drive forward and break hard and not run
over the cones? Can you back up into a box?
Can you make a sharp one and eighty degree turn?
Can you make a three point turn? You know, like
the real, the real, real basic stuff. And you know

(01:03:48):
the issue is if you go and you.

Speaker 5 (01:03:52):
I have to be.

Speaker 11 (01:03:53):
Careful about how specific I get. If there is an
area which has a large amount of ass and if
aggressive pursuit techniques are taught and vehicles collide and maybe
end up on fire and or upside down, agencies tend

(01:04:16):
to get very gun shy about how aggressive UH driver
training is going forward and uh and with you know,
with all that kind of stuff, it's the what does
if if the agency is a thing onto itself or
if it's answerable to AH to a state agency like

(01:04:38):
in in my state, they're called LEPs l EPs is
the UH is the certifying agency for law enforcement officers? Like,
what is the standard that's either encoded or has been
determined by this qualifying agency? And what is the what
is the one percent past the minimum standard we have
to train people to so they can pass this standard?

Speaker 5 (01:05:03):
Yeah, we had I think we all probably have stories,
but I had a female detective, nice gal, decent, decent detective.
You know, she did interview skills, et cetera. But she
could not shoot for anything. And we were carrying a
model she was carrying model ten four inch done. We're
shooting one fifty eight green samhow what gutters for practice?
And UH then worked only one fifty eight U plus

(01:05:26):
P the Winchester low holopoints. She's not passed qualification once
on the first attempt. Work her up, work her up,
get to and then we passed her and through come
back three months later she wouldn't pass. So I finally
wrote up a memo to it and said, okay, we're
going to reduce some amount of training to two months.
So individually. I would take her out and I would

(01:05:47):
shoot her lam two months she didn't pass, would work
her out to speed. She passed, come out two months
later she didn't pass. So then we wrote up memo.
We did a monthly, went out a month and she
went out. We get up, she wouldn't pass. We get
up to speed, she'd pass. Come out the next month,
she wouldn't pass. I finally looked at her and we
were going to go out of two weeks. I said,
they're going to fire you because you are not performing.

(01:06:08):
You cannot retain training. I don't know. She said, I
wouldn't carry this thing if you guys didn't make me.
And that's the attitude that she had, which is an
attitude of a lot of cops that they would not
carry guns. And fortunately for us and for her, she
mentically retired with carple tunnel, not from shooting, though, from
typing and beyond that. Then she left law enforcement with

(01:06:30):
a medical retirement. And you'll never guess what she got
to go do after that for her next life, roping
cattle get out.

Speaker 14 (01:06:41):
Yeah, really, yep, that's what she did after she left
law enforcement with carpal tunnel. But we you know, it's
one of those I say, it's no longer our problem,
and they would get hurt, hurt. She didn't get hurt,
and you know, I said, I like her, she was
nice goal, but she just had no business be a cop.

Speaker 5 (01:06:59):
And that's to day what we have. Unfortunately, we have
a lot of people who have gotten to this job
for the wrong reasons. They don't give a cramp about
the guns they carry. They don't carry it. They don't
carry the gun. It wouldn't carry a gun if we
didn't make them. They look at a gun like they
carry their ballpoint pen, if they even carry a pen anymore.
Most of the might just use their phones. But nonetheless

(01:07:20):
it's just not important to them because they don't do
it and they don't see it, and the departments don't
push it. And this is not a new thing. I
can remember when I went in the Air Force. What
they didn't teach me was criminal. When I went through,
we shot a class lee's position and all that with
our Model fifteen's and I like shooting, so it was

(01:07:41):
fun for me. I remember going to my duty station
in Texas and it was a rainy day and the
combat arms guys come out and they're looking at this,
and they said, well, they passed out scorecards for shootings
THATID write your name on it. Put between seventy and
a hundred. It can't be a seventy and it can't
one hundred, and that's your qualification score.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
Oh wow, okay.

Speaker 5 (01:08:04):
And we didn't shoot up any amo at all. That
was our score. Now some way, that was fortunate for
me because I got to be friends with them, and
since I like to shoot it, they would give me
AMMO cans at thirty eight AMO, which they have preface
they had to account for and why they didn't shoot it,
and so I would shoot it up and I'd bring
the brass over. So it was good for me. But
that's the kind of thing that we see in law enforcement,

(01:08:24):
and unfortunately that hasn't changed today and there's still agencies
who do that. David was remembered reminding me about the
fifteen yards everything. A post just changed a fifteen yard
qualification course of which you can make. You have to
make failure drills at fifteen yards, with the theory being
that replaces the twenty five yard stage because you're shooting

(01:08:45):
at a small target, but you can miss all three headshots.
And still fast the course.

Speaker 1 (01:08:50):
Oh wow.

Speaker 6 (01:08:51):
When I was at the teacher did cat. I'll go ahead,
Marko as I think.

Speaker 5 (01:08:56):
And the reason we had to go to this course
is because Phoenix is the biggest age in the state.
They have a lot of people on Arizona Post. The
range master was friends with the director of Arizona Post
from Phoenix PDE and he wanted to be able to
use his indoor fifteen yard ranges to shoot their qualification courses.

(01:09:18):
So we got to shove down our throat. And this
is the whole state that had to go through this
course of fire. It's the only course. You're got to
do it.

Speaker 7 (01:09:25):
Now.

Speaker 5 (01:09:26):
You can do other things besides that, but you have
to shoot this course of fire once a year and
it's the only one authorized. Beyond that, you can do
whatever training. But we all know that many small agencies
all they do is go out and shoot the qualification
course and that is their training. Unfortunately correct, and we
see this a lot again. I've been involved on from
training with this large national organization. I will tell you

(01:09:50):
horror stories about private security and police agencies and even
some military units who just don't let their people who
are the instructors go out and just let alone there.
They're actual field operators. There's a company we teach classes
for their instructors, get to get their pistols out once
a year to go practice and then in them then
instructor school and wonder why they got an eighty percent

(01:10:13):
failure rate. Incredible, it is awful. So I'm done set
up for a little.

Speaker 1 (01:10:18):
Bit well so true story with no exaggeration whatsoever. And
it's not even a recent story. Uh So, when I
was the training sergeant from my agency, uh it was
a full time training unit. Uh I mean full time
training cadre and then also supplemented by by part time
instructors from the rest of the rest of the agency.

(01:10:41):
And so you know, you put people through the basic academy,
you get them through all the firearms training you know
at our you know, at our facility, get them ready
to go they go to field training. So absolutely no
exaggeration here. This is a real world example of what

(01:11:05):
shows up now. And I'm not being like that old
guy that's like, you know, well, in my day, this
that and the other. I'm not that old actually, But
although I guess some guys, the millennials and gen zs
would disagree with that, but this really did happen. This
recruit gets through the basic academy, he qualifies with all

(01:11:27):
his firearms. He goes to field training, and in my opinion,
has the greatest first week that any police recruit could
ask for. And he gets to go just but pure luck.
He gets to go on a robbery in progress, he

(01:11:47):
gets to go on a felony traffic stop, he gets
to go on a barricaded person, He gets to do
all kinds of cool stuff. Right that first week. Well, no,
he shows up at the end of that last week.
He comes back to the academy with all of his gear,
turns it in and he says, I'm done. I'm quitting.

(01:12:10):
I'm not I'm I'm quitting. That's it. I'm resigning. And
and my guys are telling me about this. My instructors,
they're like, whoa, whoa, what's going on, man, what's the problem.
He's like, this happened, This happened, and then we went
on this, you know. And he's like, and this is
his actual words, he says, I just didn't realize there

(01:12:35):
was going to be so much gun stuff. And and
so the two my two instructors are like Roger that understanding,
here's the forum, let's fill it out. You got to go.
But they're in my office like ranting to me. Of course,
you know, they're like, what did you think you were

(01:12:58):
signing up for when you hired on?

Speaker 3 (01:13:01):
Here?

Speaker 1 (01:13:02):
We do gun stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:13:03):
Here.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Kind of reminds me a little bit of that line
from The Magnificent Seven Steve mcquain, we deal on lead
friend And you know something, there's an awful lot of
the administrators and chiefs who would just freak out if
they heard me saying that right now, the very idea
that there's cops out there who want to do gun stuff. Oh, Doug,

(01:13:26):
come on.

Speaker 6 (01:13:26):
I had had had the same had the same thing.
I was working at the academy at Third doing firearm
stuff and I came in one morning and our program
manager was headed out and I said, Bob, where are
you going? He goes, Oh, I'm going to an exit
interview with one of the recruits.

Speaker 9 (01:13:41):
They're quitting.

Speaker 6 (01:13:42):
And you know, they always have an exit interview. They
have their tack officer and then they're one of their
reps from their you know, their their department.

Speaker 3 (01:13:48):
There.

Speaker 6 (01:13:48):
He goes, you want to come along? I said, sure,
so he went in the commander's office and I'm sitting
in the back, of course, I'm in the corner or whatever,
and the kid gets through it. He says, I just
didn't realize that you'd die in this job. And I know,
and then my program manager, Bob, he turns around and
does this to me, gives me the finger, and I'm going,

(01:14:09):
what did I did? I say, you know, and so
I mean, you know, well I don't probably knew me,
and so yeah, it's like, I didn't realize you could
die in this job. This job just isn't for me.
So we get done and I'm walking out. I said,
why did you do that to me? He goes, just
in case you were going to say something, I know

(01:14:29):
you you can't keep it shut shields.

Speaker 7 (01:14:32):
I just know.

Speaker 6 (01:14:33):
It's like, did I did I grunt or say anything? Goes, No, No,
you didn't. You didn't say anything. No, No, you didn't
draw attention to yourself. But I just wanted to make
sure it wasn't going to come out of you. I
just thought, oh my gosh. We had a while we
were there. I think it was an oh it was
two thousand and eight. We all all the all the

(01:14:54):
instructors at the academy had to go through a class
called the Millennial Child, because this is what we were
going to be seeing coming through, is the child that
the recruit that's only seen sweat in the pe class.
You know at that time. Of course we're talking, you know,
two thousand and eight so or almost eighteen years ago.
You know, texts, you know, twenty five three thousand times

(01:15:16):
a day, so I'm sure it's probably eight times that now,
you know, right, never has felt dirt before, never, you know,
above what this whole thing we had, you know, this
is what you're going to be seeing, and it wasn't
I would say four six months later, we get the
class the first day at the range. We had an

(01:15:37):
indoor range there and we have them stand up and
explaining their background with firearms, whatever your background in life,
you know, just get real short, you know, and had
had a class that was I think thirty thirty people
in that class, and sixteen of them were missionary kids.
I'm not doubting missionary kids, but just I thought, that's

(01:15:59):
just odd proportion of this, you know, I mean what
you know, they they tell about the life they had
no prior firearms, no prior a lot of different things,
and it's like, oh, you know, and then a lot
of them during the academy would would file complaints of
of instructors or guest instructors or other people than the academy,

(01:16:24):
you know, up in f bombs or something. I'm just thinking, yeah,
I'm just thinking, and I got tagged with something. It's like,
my my thing on the range was if they're shooting
like a forty caliber shotgun pattern down there in the rain,
you know, I'm just you know, instructors would work with
them and they say, hey, Steve, can you go down here?
And it's like I look at the target and I

(01:16:45):
my joke was, you know, look at the target, going
oh man, where'd your mother? And I go wrong? All right,
we got some work here to do, you know, so
let's let's let's let's work on this, you know whatever. Well,
one of the kids took it really serious that I
had I'd called his mother a whore, and he was
as because I had said that, and I got yarded

(01:17:06):
in for it. I'm just going, I'm done, I'm done,
sign me out, I'm done. I said, I'll do the
post academy stuff with cops that worked the street. But
I'm done at the academy. I'm done.

Speaker 3 (01:17:21):
I had to start. I to start giving a speech
in the beginning of the academy that said, just so
you know, this is the Police Spartman Academy. This is
our academy. We don't owe you anything. We don't have
to let you be here another agency you could be
going to going down to the state Academy and getting
a lot less training, a lot less hours, and just
see you now when you fill out your instructor review forms.

(01:17:42):
We don't give a shit, we don't care, we don't
even read them. Have a ball, say whenever you want.
The very second academy we had, I had a bunch
of them saying we didn't like him, like, well, I
didn't like you guys either. Frankly, all of you from
that one organization. I didn't really care for you either
because you were lazy and either dumb or didn't care

(01:18:03):
one or the other. But everybody from the agency was
a pain in the ass. And that's exactly how many
negative comments I got from them. So h that's kind
of the good thing about not working for the state
and still having a state academy. None of those go
to the state anyway, So I'm waiting for that eventually
to come back and hauness. But it's that's actually why

(01:18:23):
I came here. I'm so frustrated with these kids right now.
I can't even see straight making me crazy.

Speaker 1 (01:18:29):
Well, you know, the thing that's always struck me as
a little strange is is And again I'm not trying
to be that old man who's constantly talking bad about
young plunny all right, plenty of tough kids that are,
you know, from young generation. But if they think that
it's course in the academy, they think it's course in

(01:18:52):
field training, how course do you think it's going to
be when in the real world, when you're on those
calls for service, and I've seen I've seen recruits that
were just absolutely horrified. Uh, And typically it's it's it's
really nice kids, they're well meaning kids, they're genuinely good people.

(01:19:16):
They just were not aware ever that such other people
existed who did these kinds of things to other people
with impunity, and they just didn't know that. And I
mean I've seen several times younger, younger recruits, young officers.

(01:19:36):
I mean, I mean I remember one of them was
this girl she's such a nice girl. She was like,
oh my god, I can't believe there's actually people like this,
and like, yeah, yeah, there are. There's people that do
horrible things with knives and weapons and genitalia in trailer
houses and and and it's ugly and it's disgusting. And

(01:19:58):
guess what that's that says our bread and butter. Yeah,
that's that's that's what the general public is paying us
to deal with, so they don't have to here to do.
And it's it can be truly shocking to some young people.
You know, he really can be, but it's not fair.

(01:20:21):
I don't think it's fair to a lot of these
young people for us to expect him to just simply
know things like Frank Hamer did. Frank Hamer had skills
at sixteen years old. That that there's you know, cops
that they go their whole career and don't don't possess
those skills because they didn't they didn't have to develop
those skills, So that that part's not fair.

Speaker 3 (01:20:41):
But you know what, Frank.

Speaker 1 (01:20:42):
Camer probably also didn't know how to work, you know,
operate a PlayStation five, you know, and he couldn't code
anything either. You know, but because this social media would
be horrible, horrible, incredible, you know. So you know, it
depends on the literacy of the culture and what you
find yourself. At the end of the day, we have

(01:21:05):
to be able to train that sixty six percent within
that bell curve to meet the standard to be able
to deal with these issues as they pop up. My
wife accuses me quite often and validly so, of having

(01:21:25):
good old day syndrome, and she's right, I do. But
that's not actually helping anybody. So I never tried to
talk down to anybody in training. But we got to
build people up and raise their standard and raise them up.
And I'm a big believer in telling stories about previous
previous cops, cops that worked in every mark talked about

(01:21:49):
I mean Teddy Roosevelt in New York City, Bass Reeves
in Oklahoma, you know, guys in California. Let's talk about
all of it and talk about what those people did,
what they had to do, and now let's talk about
how that applies to you and what we're dealing with now.
And you've got to get your skills.

Speaker 5 (01:22:07):
Up, dude.

Speaker 1 (01:22:07):
And here's a drill that will help you to be
moving towards being as good a gunfighter. If you're really
good and you work really hard, if you do these
drills and you do it in a consistent fashion, maybe
we can get you towards being like a Frank Hamer,
so that when the moment of truth occurs, you'll be

(01:22:29):
ready for it. But I don't know what to do though,
with the ones who say things like I just didn't
realize there would be so much gun stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:22:39):
McDonald's is hiring.

Speaker 1 (01:22:42):
Yeah, yeah, you might make more to McDonald's.

Speaker 11 (01:22:45):
So along those lines, apparently it's hazing and you're not
supposed to give fast food applications to trainees when they
have a bad day, and you're like, hey, guess what,
it gets worse before it gets worse, buckle up, you know.
And of course, you know, as as as a rule,

(01:23:05):
I like when training, when training people in the field,
you know, I didn't I didn't like hazem or or
talk down to them or call them useless or anything
like that. You know, it's it's it's interesting because stuff
like that, or Hey, a thing I was very specifically

(01:23:26):
told I was not allowed to do was keep a
trainee out for twenty four hours straight. And I was like,
what the f do you think is going to happen
when they're working a murder? Right, Like, what's going to
happen when we have a flood in the state and
they get detailed to an area where there's people that

(01:23:49):
they don't like you were saying, like you were saying, Doug,
there's these people that you don't know exists, and you
don't know what they're what their lifestyle is like until
it's the worst month of their life and you're there
as a representative of the government, and they couldn't care
less for you, you know, when they had electricity, if

(01:24:09):
they have electricity and running water, when life is relatively
good for them, right, you know, like they already don't care,
and then when you put them in the worst situation
of their life, they don't give a shit that you
that like you have a uniform and a gun, like
you're in my holler. My family's been here for one
hundred and fifty years, and you know what, you can

(01:24:31):
disappear and no one will ever know what happened to you, right.

Speaker 3 (01:24:33):
Like, you know, those.

Speaker 11 (01:24:37):
People have to be aware that, oh my gosh, you
know these kind of people exist and you're going to
have to find a way to interact with them. That's
a that's a big issue I've seen. Uh And you know,
I don't know what you'd call me. Some people say
I'm a millennial, some people say I'm a zennial.

Speaker 3 (01:24:56):
Whatever.

Speaker 11 (01:24:57):
You know, I'm in that weird area. I'm forty four
eighty two baby, But like, I'm in that weird area
where I got to like experience gen X stuff and
millennial stuff growing up. And there's a really interesting thing
which has occurred with a lot of these younger adults

(01:25:19):
is they don't know how to talk to people. And
part of the training, if we're talking about training, having
a conversation, looking someone in the eye and being able
to get a judgment of where they are as far
as I know you're having a bad day because I'm
the police and I'm here talking to you. How do
I teach someone, not just me, just that's the general eye,

(01:25:43):
you know, how do you teach someone? You need to
talk to somebody. You need to look in the eyes,
You need to understand their body language. You need to
be able to speak to them at their level, whether
that means using a higher level of higher level of language.
That's that's like from a more edge kid standpoint, or
whether that's using a lower level of language where you

(01:26:05):
have to say, hey, listen here, m effort. I'm trying
to keep it fairly clean, Matt like. And that's just
how some people talk to each other and knowing when
it's appropriate to use what language at what circumstance. And
that's that's another I think training point where there's kind
of a least common denominator. Hey, yeah, you've got to

(01:26:27):
talk to people and take statements, and you're going to
write reports and stuff. But the behind the scenes of it,
of how to actually talk to people and get a
read on and everything. I think we as a whole
as trainers, despite our best efforts. You know that those
of us on the panel are not are not in
that sixty six percent, I would say, But like, as

(01:26:49):
a whole, we're failing people who are coming into the
profession on that level with training as well.

Speaker 1 (01:26:55):
Yes, so, Matt, Matt, remember the notes that I sent
you my little beforehand. So can I because David's just
opened the door to that. So one thing that I
want the viewers to understand about the old time law
enforcement guys, especially some of the guys that today we
consider to be some of the greatest gunfighters of all time.

(01:27:17):
Is that most of those law enforcement personnel had phenomenal
communication skills. They also developed informants, they developed intelligence, they
had they had spies. They used to call them spies
in the old days when you read some of their
books and reports. But they had a network of people

(01:27:39):
who would talk to them, which means you have to
cultivate people who would actually tell you what's going on.
Many of these old, the old school law enforcement guys
came from working class backgrounds, ranching and farming backgrounds, hunting backgrounds.
And guess what that means again, somebody mentioned you miss

(01:27:59):
or you you're not a good hunter. You go hungry.
That means that you have to start paying attention to
the rhythms and the movements of game. You have to
pay attention to who's doing what, where they are, who
they know, what, where are they traversing, Where do they
have to go to get food, water, et cetera. Where
do they go to lay their head at night? And
that's as simple. That comes down to information and intelligence gathering.

(01:28:25):
And Frank Hamer had an incredible network of informants. Frank
Hamber was before there was ever any classes about investigations
and developments of developing informants. He was a true master
of that. And Frank and other guys like him, many
other law enforcement pioneers, would do all of the groundwork

(01:28:48):
for months at a time so that they would be
in the perfect position of advantage, so that when they
were in a place where they had to take the shot,
had already done a tremendous amount of work beforehand, and
they had absolute advantage over the suspect, and so they
were able to make that shot at the right moment

(01:29:09):
if it was in fact necessary. And a lot of
that's lost on people. They think that we're just talking
about the high the classic high noon gunfight thing. That's
not typically what those kind of law enforce of personnel
did even in those days. Again, based on information movement personnel.
Who do they know? What do they know? Where are

(01:29:31):
they going? Where do they hide out? And you got
to you've got to develop informance and information ahead of time.
That's how he caught Body and Clyde. That's how he
caught many other people. Again, that's how Jelly Rice caught people.
I can mention other people. Charles Winstead, I mean, these
guys did a tremendous amount of background work and sleuthing

(01:29:52):
and sniffing and checking and writing and developing informants, and
then they would be at the right place at the
right time still on that information. You can't do any
of that if you don't have meaningful human interaction skills
where you can actually elicit that information from other people.
If you're not, if you come and I please don't,

(01:30:14):
please don't misunderstand what I'm about to say. But if
if you come across as like an autistic guide that
doesn't have any like people skills, like well, nobody's going
to want to talk to you about what are they
been seeing or what's going on? Or who's shipping what
to some strange place, or who's been making weird deposits
to the bank? You know, things like that, who's been
shipping cattle out of here on these vehicles that you

(01:30:36):
know nobody knows anything about. You can't do your job
if you can't communicate with people. And some of the
greatest gunfighters that we we we acknowledge as being some
of the greatest gunfighters, we often don't acknowledge the fact
that were tremendous investigators and communicators before all of that
ever happened.

Speaker 2 (01:30:57):
Good stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:30:58):
One of my favorite topics.

Speaker 8 (01:31:00):
At that point, just really quickly, the Wyoming angle Tom Horn, Right,
it was Tom Horn. He murdered a guy or murdered
a kid right now, maybe he didn't actually do it,
but they hung in for it. So he's a bad guy.
Tom Horn was an incredibly skilled criminal investigator. He was

(01:31:23):
a tracker and he to your point, Doug, he cultivated
resources all over Colorado, Wyoming into the Dakotas, and he
knew where to go find people. And there was a
there was a there was a train robbery, a pretty

(01:31:43):
famous one here in this state. And he got a
lot of the credit for bringing in the guys who
did it, even though he didn't actually arrest them. He
did all the legwork. And it was that network and
that ability to move in and out of people, to
communicate with people, to gain intelligence almost it will is

(01:32:07):
what set him apart.

Speaker 1 (01:32:09):
And he gets a.

Speaker 8 (01:32:10):
Bad rap for you know that other thing. But who's
the hell of a detective for all the reasons that
you mentioned, Well.

Speaker 1 (01:32:20):
I think those are those skill sets that are often
lost on people or their is forgotten, and they don't
think about all the groundwork that has to go into
being a good detective, law enforcement, a deputy, a police officer.
And you find throughout no matter whether it's New York City, Chicago,
West Texas, Nevada, California, regardless of the year, what you

(01:32:44):
find over and over again is that those human interaction
skills and those critical thinking skills, planning, scouting, thinking ahead
is what actually sets the stage for success and still
doesn't hurt.

Speaker 3 (01:33:00):
That's largest training, though, is that that that you know
you you kind of are who you are from zero
to five. You're like eighty percent of who you are
by the time you're five years old. By the time
you're fifteen, you know you're you're like ninety ninety. You
get these kids, you get these kids coming into the academy.
I see kids, a lot of them. We had a
lot of forty year olds nowadays. But we get these

(01:33:20):
folks in the academy that went through COVID, and imagine
being when you know, we were all most of us
were adults. All of us were adults, so some kind
I'm not I don't Jordan hall An led Jar, but
when when when COVID came around with that two three
year period, nobody was talking to nobody, right, Yeah, I'm
thinking to all the adults, sorry, nobody was talking to anybody,

(01:33:41):
and they imagine being in your teens when that happened.
We get those kids now coming to the police Academy
at twenty one, twenty four years old, and they don't
have that, and you can't give it to them. Yeah,
I mean, we've got a relatively long academy.

Speaker 1 (01:33:55):
You can't.

Speaker 3 (01:33:56):
That's not something you can you can bake into somebody
and and a half months or in you know, six
or eight months in an FTO program. You just it's
not it's not there. It has to be developed over time,
and you're trying to override a mile in program that's
that was there from from when they were kids. I
think that's a big part of the struggle, is that
that you may read the Talent Code, you wouldn't think

(01:34:16):
of it as a gun book, but it talks about
myelination and and how you know the uh, this Island
of Curtis out puts out more Major League Baseball players
than any other place that size in the world, because
that's all they do from the time they're kids. It's
just baseball. There's no Internet, there's no TV. It's just
all baseball. And it's just baked into them and milinated

(01:34:37):
into them and uh called the talent Code. I can't
remember the guy's name. I just looked it up again,
Daniel Coyle. But that's the struggle that we're facing right now,
is the you know a lot of don't have those.
I mean, if you grew up with Jelly Bryce with
a gun in the you know, the proverbial gun in
the in the in the crib, then I think you
got a little bit of an advantage. But these some
of these kids, I never shot a gun.

Speaker 5 (01:34:58):
Before, right, very much. I think that's what we're providing.

Speaker 9 (01:35:03):
Context and getting the buy in is where I've seen
the most success. Right If I had my way, Are
Freeborn's Violence of Mind book would be coarse material and
every yeah, the buy in, give them the mindset of Hey,
this is why we're training the way we're training. It's
not just because it's fun. It can be fun, but
I find want fun on the rink, and they're not

(01:35:26):
equating to you. This is a life saving field.

Speaker 2 (01:35:30):
Your audio for me is coming in and out.

Speaker 15 (01:35:32):
Yeah see here, so funny.

Speaker 2 (01:35:44):
Funny, Jordan speaks up because I have a direct question
for him. As soon as we're done with this segment.

Speaker 3 (01:35:49):
I thought we're going to bang on, bang on twenty
year Olds's got to bring him into the conversation at least.

Speaker 2 (01:35:53):
Well he's not even twenty yet, so he's like, fourteen,
it's fourteen fourteen, you too, you took see where we want?

Speaker 9 (01:35:59):
We want Now.

Speaker 3 (01:36:03):
They'll muted.

Speaker 6 (01:36:06):
Well.

Speaker 11 (01:36:06):
While Jordan's getting his audio figured out, James k made
a comment about he's got forty plus year old female
students starting FTO Phase one with him this month.

Speaker 1 (01:36:16):
Yeah. Yeah, he texted me.

Speaker 11 (01:36:19):
He's like, I'm getting set up to make a comment
and I was like, all right, cool. If you think
about how I know teachers, my mom was a teacher
I retired, and the way the way the culture is
in public education, I'm assuming when he says teachers, probably

(01:36:40):
probably public education compared to compared to how things have
to happen in law enforcement. That's going to be a
very interesting shift, and you know, hope hopefully that woman
is successful. I know James is a good guy. He's
really smart, he's really tuned in. So if anyone can

(01:37:01):
be a successful FTO James is definitely in that category.
So hopefully he can he can help her and she
can become a successful police officer. But holy cow, what
a difference. What a difference in mindset and communication and
how all that needs to work.

Speaker 5 (01:37:19):
It depends on what he now.

Speaker 9 (01:37:23):
Yes, all right, so we'll try this again, right. I
think having buy in about why we're doing what we're doing,
why we're training, the way we're training is important. I
don't know how much of what I said you guys caught,
but in my opinion, Vard's book would be standard course
material for just about every police academy. Vark lays it
out there and it is as real as I've ever

(01:37:45):
seen of This is why gunfighting skills are important, because
this is what these people are capable of, and this
is what you guys can be faced with at any
given moment, on any given day when you come to work.
And so for me, I'm the younger generation here on
the panel, right, I didn't necessarily have to develop that.
I kind of always knew. I had a family members
that were in law enforcement growing up. I kind of

(01:38:05):
knew what it was. They gave me the hey, are
you sure you want to be a cop speech. This
is what it is before I before I went to
the academy, right, So I always kind of had that.
But you know, I've worked with people like you guys
are talking about, who work in a correctional facility and
wouldn't carry a gun unless policy made them right, And
they don't show up to work. They leave it at work.
When they go home, that stays in the locker because

(01:38:27):
they don't go home in uniform, and we still have
to qualify them every year. And so I think trying
to find buy in with those kind of people. I
don't know how you guys do it, but that's the
only way that I've been able to have success training
newer generations is got to get them to get to
buy in my.

Speaker 5 (01:38:43):
End's an important part making it fun.

Speaker 7 (01:38:46):
I want part.

Speaker 6 (01:38:48):
I would think that they still had that problem. What
one hundred years ago, twenties, thirties, forties, I would think
you still had probably not to the extent we're seeing
now all Dare I say that, But I think there
still was that type that was out there even back then.

Speaker 11 (01:39:09):
Had to be just had to be people.

Speaker 9 (01:39:11):
It was.

Speaker 5 (01:39:13):
Well Teddy Roosevelt I said, we were talking about when
the introduction, we talked about Teddy Roosevelt. He was shocked
at the dismal performance that police officers around me, I
believe they call them back then had But a lot
of that is because most of the people they hired
there were urbanites who lived in the urban city, who
didn't have to hunt, who didn't have to have a
firearm to protect themselves and provide food for themselves, so

(01:39:36):
they had no desire to do that. So this is
not a new a new thing. This has been around
ever since. There There are people who should be comps,
and there are people who shouldn't be comps, or people
should carry guns. There people who shouldn't carry guns. And
unfortunately we have an ADMIN. And that was a question
I brought up to Matt. Have admins that all they
want to do is fill a box, and they don't

(01:39:57):
care that they can't shoot. They don't care. They don't
care about the people that they're supposed to be out
there trying to protect. All they're there is to fill
a box, get a paycheck, hopefully get a pension. If
they managed to wake their way through, probably working a
way up to admin, and that's all they care about.
I was very fortunate in my career with Prescott that

(01:40:18):
I had Chief. In fact, I just came back from
the memorial for him, we just passed away last week.
That he let me do everything I wanted to do
on the range. He let me design our firearms training program.
I was able to beat post standards. We would divine
our own firem course, qualification course. We designed our training program.

(01:40:38):
I made fun competitions. I gave prizes out. One year
we did a turkey shoot where the top shooter and
every squad got a turkey. I got the Chief di
by off of let me get the stores to donate
turkeys so they got a free turkey from it. We
had individual, the whole team, the best team, and then

(01:41:02):
I went and bought out of my own pocket a
turkey dinner and delivered it to him on never Thanksgiving.
And these guys loved it. The one that I really
admired the most was a friend of mine, unfortunately is
also so just recently passed away. Was we gave the
bottom shooter a Gainish corn hen corn hen as a surprize,
and he I gave it to him and we're laughing,

(01:41:25):
and he goes, I will never get this again. Ever,
and he didn't. He put him, he put he put
himself in to them said I want to go train.
I don't want to be embarrassed like this. He took
it like a man. It was meant for a joke,
but he wanted to improve himself and he did it.
I don't know we've got people that weigh this way
because I think we get complaints of that. If I
did that today, I probably get beefed about it that

(01:41:48):
I embarrassed him in front of everybody else. But it's
a different generation. But I think I think Jordan alluded
to it. If you can get him to buy into
it as to the how, the why, the when why
they need to do this and make it fun for
him instead of just going out and driving at home,
I think that we can get better results from it
an agency who need to do that, But we don't
have Adam in the care. They don't want to. And

(01:42:11):
my chief was as good as he was. He always said,
you know, Mark, we've got all this that are training
to do. We've got driving, we got arrest tactics. And
I said, Chief, you're definuely right, but we drive every day. Yes,
I know we're not doing the high speed stuff we
drive every day is we get to practice our skills.
We arrest people every day, we get to practice those skills.
We don't shoot people every day, so we need to

(01:42:32):
keep that because of the degenerating skills you get from it.
And he bought off on that and we got to
do I said I was allowed. We did every three months.
So we were very blessed to be able to go
out and we like you guys, some of you guys
were talking about he gave fifty rounds out a month.
We made him come out of the range. We didn't
just simply give it out. Now, they had to come
out the range. We had a range day. It was
a multi purpose thing to help maintain the range. But

(01:42:55):
guys come out and shoot. And we had the core
seventy five as we had the Core five six seven
eyes would come out and practice and the rest of
them would never utilize it ever, lit a day off
or not. And that's what you see with it. I
think probably everyone who missing this group has seen that
that you've got your core guys who will come out
and really practice. But that's who the admin also looks

(01:43:15):
at as being the trouble guys. Because they're still there.
And I and I was that guy was My boss said,
you know when you started up here and we you know,
hired you, We're worried you're going to go out and
shoot somebody. And I said, that's the last thing I
want to do. I want to be so good. I
didn't have to shoot somebody. That's purpose. So I say,

(01:43:37):
good man, I'm really to miss him. I'm sorry he
passed away, but he was a good boss. But I
got to tell you I was happy. And also mentioned
because of what training we're allowed to do, my department
had a ninety two percent expert rating for every officer
on the department. That one female officer kind of the
er stats off, but everybody else had that. And when

(01:43:58):
we got involved in shooting, which wasn't very many, they
were done and over with in one, two or three rounds. Done.
And the thing but problem was, saulve there was no
mag doves. We carry semonos, but there's no mag doves,
none of those other things we're seeing today. They got
the hits, they got the hits they needed to and
they were done, period. And that's what we need to
keep you go back to. In my opinion, well ahead.

Speaker 8 (01:44:22):
I was just gonna say, I agree with you. One
of my first rules of supervision and management, both public
and private sector, was if you can't have a little
fun at work, why are you there? Yeah, yes, we
can make it fun. There's ways to do that. There's
all kinds of ways to do that, throwing a little

(01:44:43):
friendly competition in there. To your point of the cornish game,
I wouldn't have thought of that, But that's that's actually
kind of a good one. Taking it back to Bakersfield
because that my classic kind of touchstone. Excuse me when

(01:45:07):
when Mike Wadelik was tasked by the chief to improve
the firearms training, it was because they had had a
year with eight officer involved shootings and not a single
round fired hit anybody. Wow, that was the genesis of
where that came from. And same as you, Mark, he

(01:45:29):
went in and said, Okay, I can do this, but
I have to do it my way and there needs
to be some discipline behind it. They kind of addressed
it with discipline, and the training was to reach the
standard of eighty percent cold on that ten round exercise
and you know, lo and behold with some remedial training

(01:45:52):
and probably a certain amount of competition and fun they
got there, and Bakersfield PDS still to this day uses
that exercise, although they've changed it slightly. They don't lose
gunfights there and they over the years have been in
a lot of gunfights. Kern County, California is not an

(01:46:16):
overtly pleasant place to work in law enforcement, not at all.
So there's something to be said for that and making
it meaningful, right, a meaningful standard. So here in Wyoming,
the old course, I don't know what the new one

(01:46:37):
is now, but the old course you could miss four
shots out of twenty five fired, completely missed the target,
and you pass to me, that's not acceptable accountability right,
And I know this has been a topic on this
on the Moodcasts for years as well as many other sources.

(01:47:00):
We have to have accountability, but getting a little fun
in there, I think maybe a little bit more of
a carrot for younger folks coming into the business than
the stick.

Speaker 1 (01:47:17):
Yeah. Agree, So, Matt, Matt, you kind of you know,
you'd wanted to talk about the difference between the the
you know, I'll say the old guys and again the
Frank Hamer's, the Jelly Brice is all those guys so
the truth is that there's an earthy quality to the

(01:47:42):
human existence that that frankly, many American kids have been
insulated from, yeah, for for a long time. But you
know who's not is the farm kids. All all the
farm kids. They've seen dead animals, they've had to kill
stuff sometimes, they've had to haul off carcasses and has

(01:48:02):
to work. They've had to work. And Jordan had mentioned
earlier our Freeborn's book, and I'm actually a big fan
of both of his books, And there's an ugly part
of that that ar Freeborn talks about, which is putting
extra holes in another human being, right, And ultimately that's

(01:48:24):
what we're talking about here, right, putting more holes in
a person than what they have sometimes and that may
have to happen. I took ed Ed Calderon's class a
few years ago, and look, I know that some people
have different opinions about his training, but one of the
things that I liked about his training is that he's

(01:48:46):
got this full sized pig carcass hanging up and everybody
in the class has to go up there and stab
that thing a few times. And man, you can see
you can really see people's I don't know what you
might going to call it your switch coming on their meter,
all that they realize, oh shit, I'm fixing to put

(01:49:07):
some holes in this thing. And the first couple of
times there are a little, you know, a little trepidation
about it. No, you've got to hit that thing a
lot harder than that to put some extra holes in it. Now, obviously,
what I'm about to say sounds a little extreme, and
I don't actually believe that we should do this, But
if I had carte blanche, I would make every police

(01:49:30):
recruit in America go hog hunting with me and go
kill some Go kill something with hair on it with
your firearm before you actually go into field training, so
that you can see for yourself what your duty weapon
will actually do to something that has hair and blood
in it, hair on it and blood on it, and

(01:49:52):
that will get your mind right about the reality of
what you're dealing with.

Speaker 7 (01:49:56):
Now.

Speaker 1 (01:49:57):
I know there's going to be some people that are
going to clutch the pearls freak out about me saying that,
but it's true and I stand by that and what
I've seen over and over and over again, and I've
seen it in real world shootings. I've seen it in
real world life saving situations that occurred is that young

(01:50:17):
people who've had those kind of experiences perform at a
much higher level than young people who have not had
those experiences. They have, it's just a fact. Now, you know,
the intelligencia and the cognizanti in America might freak out
about some of that, but it's true. And I'm not

(01:50:41):
suggesting that we take all the police, you know, the
police academy recruits down to some you know, hog farm
somewhere and start just shooting hogs. But there's something to
be said for that kind of earthy, reality based thing.
Sometimes people need to see that ship, things that really
had animals bleed, things die. You shoot him in this location,

(01:51:04):
things really do happen. There's no substitute for that kind
of experience. And I'm not sure.

Speaker 6 (01:51:12):
About thought about taking him into an autopsy or two.

Speaker 1 (01:51:16):
Well that's man, I'm glad you said that. So when
I was in a totally separate program, I went to
ut Southwestern Paramedic School in Dallas, and we were required
to go through the eme's office and go witness multiple autopsies.
And there was a guy in my class that really

(01:51:40):
had a hard time with it that ended up later
being some of the most valuable training that I ever had,
and it really directly applied to police work later in
my career. I'm very glad that I saw it. I'm
very glad that it happened to me. And yes, I

(01:52:02):
think that every police recruit probably should go sit through
an autopsy, a full autopsy, get a good look at it,
see what's going on here, and understand there are people
out there who who really want to put holes in you.
They will really do want to put extra holes in
you with a screwdriver or a knife, or a gun

(01:52:24):
or whatever, or a tire tool, but they'll do it
if you're not careful about it. And when push comes
to shove, sometimes your job is to put some extra
holes in them too, and that is actually part of
your job description. And I really wish that in interviews
that chiefs of police or other gatekeepers would tell people,

(01:52:48):
do you understand that you're coming into a profession of arms.
We're polite, we're nice, we want to help people, we
want to get people to social workers and all that.
But every now and then you will be required to
put extra holes in another human being. And if you not,

(01:53:08):
if you're not prepared to do that. This is not
the job for you, and we can help you prepare
for that. But I need you to understand that sometimes
the greatest form of service to another human being is
for you to shoot somebody right between the eyes. And
do you understand that, yes or no? I need to

(01:53:28):
hear you say the words back to me, say the words.

Speaker 3 (01:53:31):
And if they.

Speaker 1 (01:53:32):
Can't do it, then this isn't the job for them.
I know that.

Speaker 6 (01:53:36):
Back that, Yeah, it goes back to that old sixteen
minutes interview with Clint Smith. You know, some people will
just need to be shot. That's right, the circumstances around it,
needs to walk out and shoot them. That's not what
he's saying. But it's just like you've done all you could.
You've been diplomatic, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Here
comes out the tire, iron or the sword or the

(01:53:56):
whatever it is. It's like some people are just going
to have to be shot.

Speaker 1 (01:53:59):
And see, I think we need to be unapologetic about that.
And what I've seen in American law enforcement is that
we feel like that. We it seems like a lot
of chiefs PERF and ICP and some other groups. They
feel like, well, I don't want to admit that I
don't want to acknowledge that it's an unfortunate part of
our job. Yet Okay, yeah it is, and it's also

(01:54:21):
a required and significant portion of our job, and we
should be unapologetic about it when it occurs. Maybe take
a little Grady Judd, rub a little Grady jud on that.
You know that the sheriff from from Florida. Yeah, rub
a little bit of that on it, Like, dude, this
is we do gun stuff here every now and then.

(01:54:44):
It's not all we do, but they suck a fire extinguisher.
I don't apologize for using a fire extinguisher when there's
an EF and fire in my house, Okay. And so
I'm tired of everybody acting like, oh, it's an absolute
trag that this officer had to shoot this guy, you
know several times. No, it's not that officer had to

(01:55:07):
use the moral equivalent of a fire extinguisher to stop
this serious threat. And when we expect a guy to
use a fire extinguisher, we wanted to put that stuff
at the seat of the fire and put it out
and snuff it as quickly as possible, and I think
we need to be unapologetic about that when we're teaching
these recruits about dude, when it's time to go to

(01:55:30):
the gun, it's time to stop this problem immediately, and
that means putting extra holes in a guy as quickly
as we can in a way that will incapacitate him
and stop him from hurting any other innocent people. Are
you with me? Say the words with me, Say it
one time with me. Now press the trigger and let's
get this done. I don't think you need to be

(01:55:52):
apologetic about it. I don't think you need to be
remorseful about it. That's what we signed up to. At
least that's my take on it. And quite frankly, ninety
nine percent of the chiefs in America disagree with me
on that. Well, so speaking a similar to.

Speaker 8 (01:56:10):
Me was forty plus years ago. Okay, so I'm old.
We talked about that sort of stuff in the first week,
almost endlessly. We heard that.

Speaker 1 (01:56:24):
Now.

Speaker 8 (01:56:24):
I don't know how it is with say Jordan, I
don't know how it is now with the younger folks
coming in what they're actually teaching them in the academies.
But my two biggest observations from the outside just watching
is you have the optics of use of force have

(01:56:46):
become way more important out to the rest of the world.
And then you have the corollary of risk management. And
I see I see administrators all over the place way
more concern about managing risk than they are about doing

(01:57:08):
what is necessary in a moment. And that may be
where it's kind of gone off the tracks a little bit.

Speaker 9 (01:57:17):
So I took Darryl Bulks It's Gunfighter or something class
I can't remember what he titled it. It was the
first P and S summit. Matt did up in logan.

Speaker 1 (01:57:29):
Of successful gun fighters.

Speaker 9 (01:57:31):
Yeah, successful gun fires or something like that. Yeah, yeah,
And you know, one of his things that he talked
about was having the ability to put around where it
needs to go as quickly as you can, limits the
liability for the agency. He talked about the fact that
they were winning more gunfights and having less lawsuits, which
and that is mostly de escalation. Yeah, and most people

(01:57:52):
doesn't make sense, and it is a form of de escalation,
you know. So I can't speak for other places, but
one thing that has been super surprising for me to
see and relieving to see is our state level academy
firearm staff turned over a few years ago, and now
there's a lieutenant from a very active busy agency in

(01:58:12):
Utah that's leading it, and a prosecutor that shoots competition
for fun is his assistant. And they are super big
on you need to be able to do this and
do it quickly and do it accurately, and here's why.
And they're having a ton of success focusing on the
performance side and getting better product at the end of

(01:58:33):
the day.

Speaker 2 (01:58:35):
So, Jordan, now that we know that your audio works,
it already did, But tell us about how that journey
was for you before going through the academy. How much
firearms skill set did you have, how much did you
mess with firearms? Then when you went through the academy,
what was that program like for you compared to where
you're at now.

Speaker 9 (01:58:57):
Yeah. So I actually got introduced to competition shooting by
a mutual friend of mine at Matt's in two thousand
and fifteen. I think Travis took me one of Nate's
matches and that was kind of my first intro into
performance shooting. And I picked it up as a you know,
a guy interested in I want to be able to
defend my family if I need to write. I wasn't

(01:59:17):
a cop yet. I just wanted to be good with
a gun because I like to carry a gun, because
that's what my rights allowed me to do right. Entered
the Police Academy in twenty seventeen, and it was a
lot of the let's stand here and see how many
rounds you can put in the same hole for two hours,
and a lot of the old stuff that we all
have heartburnover.

Speaker 7 (01:59:39):
Came out of there. I think my.

Speaker 9 (01:59:41):
Competition background, I'd been only doing it for a couple
of years, but it was good enough that I came
out of there with the Firearms Award at the end
of the academy. And my training that I do personally
has not always aligned with what the agency's teaching, what
post is teaching, any of that stuff, And so, you know,
I would have a lot of conversations with people and

(02:00:02):
they'd be like, man, you're so good, you're naturally talented.
But they're not seeing the hours of dry practice going in,
you know, they're not seeing the watching the competition guys videos,
And how do I do something more efficiently which yields
me a faster result, or how do I keep the
gun steady while I pull the trigger at speed. And
you know, everybody thinks it's natural talent nowadays, but they

(02:00:23):
don't see the hours and hours and hours that I
put in to get to where I am. And it's
refreshing to see the change happening at the State Post
Academy because now the two things are finally starting to align.
I actually did a interesting I'll call it an experiment,
but I actually rolled out hit factor based qualifications at
my last agency before I left, and the idea was

(02:00:47):
every police video I see, the guy is shooting as
fast as he can pull the trigger because he's in
the fight for his life, right, So if we know
that that's probably what's going to happen, let's teach you
how to be accurate at that pace or how to
regu at your speed based on the acceptable target area
that you have. And it actually was cool because now

(02:01:07):
a lot of my training methodologies were starting to apply
because we were expecting people to be fast and accurate, which,
at the end of the day, who doesn't want both
of those things if you're in a gunfight?

Speaker 2 (02:01:18):
So good stuff. But as I said at the beginning,
you're a bit of the out. You're an outlier. For
the most part. With a former agency, I was running
a firearms program, and I would send out regular emails.
Pay check your check, your batteries on your optic, check

(02:01:39):
your batteries on your on your flashlight, check for tightness,
check do these checks? Or hey, why don't we change
up firearms in this way and let's let's improve things.
And the response I would get from an administrator on
a regular basis is, Matt.

Speaker 1 (02:01:54):
Why do you care? Why? Why do I care? Why
do I care?

Speaker 2 (02:02:01):
Let me tell you because this is my backup. These
are my co workers. I want them to be effective.
I want them to be I My emails might also
be making up for something when I when I got
a text from a co worker saying, yeah, my flashlight
came off flew off during a during a training. Oh well,
let's do an email. Hey guys, make sure you're doing

(02:02:23):
this if you're not doing this already, Because for the
people everyone on this panel, probably the people listening checking
for tightness, doing witness marks, this is normal, but not
for the common common officer. But to be to be asked, yeah,
why do you care? That's when you say the least

(02:02:44):
they're my friends.

Speaker 3 (02:02:46):
Quiet part out loud. It's the right thing. It's just
that simple, right. I live here, my family lives here,
and this is ridiculous. It wouldn't matter if I was
doing it across the country. I don't want thing bad
to happen anyway. That's only insane. So not all administrators
are built the same. Yeah, there's like one good one.

Speaker 1 (02:03:10):
My take on this is I love guns, man, I
love them. I love dabbling in him, and I like
all the different models.

Speaker 2 (02:03:18):
Man.

Speaker 1 (02:03:19):
I just bought original nineteen eighty three c Z seventy
five and it's going to get shipped to be sent
and I love it. But here's the deal. When it
comes to life saving stuff and professional problem solving. As
much as I love guns, to me, it's very much

(02:03:40):
like having a remote control. If I could push a
button on a remote control and I can shut that
dude down, or if I could hit a pause, I
can hit the pause button and I can stop that
guy so that he can't hurt anybody else, then that's
what I'll do's that's what it's all about for me.
It's not about the gun part and the craft and
the and the marchmanship and the and the and the

(02:04:03):
machining and the and the you know, all of that.
It's about how can I prevent this guy from hurting
anybody else? How can I prevent him from hurting other people?
And I don't really care what that mechanism looks like.
You know, uh again, if it's a remote control, I'll
hit it. If it's if it's the you know, like
my car key fob, and I can push that button

(02:04:24):
and stop it, I'll do that too. So it's not
about me wanting to get into gunfights. It's about me
wanting to stop these kinds of people from hurting innocent people.
But at the end of the day, I don't have
a device that hits the pause button on another human being.
I don't. I wish I did, I truly do. I

(02:04:44):
wish I could. But put them all on carbonite, like
the way they did with Han Solo and freeze the
guy up right and then and then he's not going
to hurt anybody, and then we'll ship him off and
then we're going to have a hearing and then we'll
decide what to do with it. But that's not reality.
It's not And when there's uncertain things occurring at the
end of the day, we have to start talking about

(02:05:06):
it's the central nervous system. How can I prevent this
guy from hurting innocent people? And there's no polite or
pretty way to discuss that without talking about I'm going
to go back to what I said earlier, without talking
about putting extra holes in a human being who has
evil and malicious intent towards somebody else. So, Jordan, and

(02:05:31):
I'm genuinely curious. I don't mean to put you on
the spot, brother, but how old are you and what
are you seeing? He's forty. What do you see younger
police recruits with regard to their understanding of we may
need to put a bullet through that guy's medula albungata

(02:05:51):
to prevent him from hurting a mother of four. And
I'm genuinely curious. Please tell us what are you seeing
right now in the academy.

Speaker 9 (02:06:02):
Yeah, so I haven't been into the academy. I changed
jobs last summer and with the change, just haven't made
it back to the academy. But what I was seeing
with the kids we were hiring straight out of the
academy was just they just did not understand what exactly.

Speaker 11 (02:06:19):
What you're talking about?

Speaker 7 (02:06:20):
Right?

Speaker 9 (02:06:20):
We had an FTO that was notorious for taking his
trainees to seven to eleven and sending them inside and saying,
you can't come out until you talked to five people
because they just don't know how to talk to people.
And kind of like we were talking about earlier, there's
just base base skills that aren't existing that we have
to figure out how to get people to either develop
or they're just not cut out for the job. And

(02:06:41):
unfortunately it's you know, some chiefs aren't, or sheriffs or whoever,
just aren't willing to say you're not cut out for this. Instead,
we'll try to honey hole you somewhere else and hija
way right.

Speaker 7 (02:06:51):
And so.

Speaker 9 (02:06:54):
From the agency I'm at now, the kids I see
coming in now fresh out of the academy are a
better product than what I've seen in the last ten years.
And I don't know if that's because I work for
a bigger agency that does have more lethal use of
force encounters and so they're having a lot more of
these conversations. I don't know if it's because the state
has changed their approach to the firearms program that now

(02:07:16):
these kids are coming in a little bit more tuned
up to things. I'm not positive what it is, but
I am seeing some positive change compared to when I
went through the academy. You know, ten years ago, we
had people that on day one, even as cadets, we
knew shouldn't be there. But they're still there. And you know,
there's one person I can think of I know is

(02:07:37):
tried to go through the academy four times and for
some reason just doesn't understand that they're not cut out
to go through the police academy, you.

Speaker 1 (02:07:44):
Know what I mean.

Speaker 9 (02:07:45):
And where I live, it is like you were talking about,
there's a lot of farm kids. There's a lot of
kids that hunt. There's a lot of kids that have
those experiences early in life that kind of set the
stage for what this might look like in the future.

Speaker 1 (02:07:56):
Also, Jordan, do you find, I'm genuinely curious, do you
find that those kids with farm backgrounds and hunting backgrounds
are better prepared for making those significant and serious decisions
and law enforcement later.

Speaker 9 (02:08:10):
One hundred percent? Because here, yeah, and we have a
lot of them. There's those are also the kids that
are playing combat combat sports in high school, right, Those
are the wrestlers, Those are the kids going to jiu jitsu.
Those are the kids hucking bales all summer and getting
getting jacked, right, and so they kind of have an
ego about it, which you know by I'm not saying

(02:08:31):
it's a bad thing. I think it's a good thing
because it kind of gives them, you know, an edge, right. Yeah,
we have a lot of kids like that around here.

Speaker 6 (02:08:39):
They've got they've got a different they've got a different
work ethic about them. I saw that in the academy
when I was there, the whole work ethic, the study,
the different things about them, the way they carried themselves.
Oh yeah, way way different.

Speaker 3 (02:08:55):
When your work directly on a sliding scale, you know,
affects how you how you eat literally if you have
much money you make, if you do a better job
with your crop, like I have the same exact thing here.
We have a lot of wheat around here, and they
all the farm kids are almost always good. It's a
shock when they're not to shock. There's also a shocked

(02:09:15):
with they're a little bit enthusiastic about guns, which I
think that's something to do with it too. I mean,
we've ever seen a really good shooter who's not somewhat
enthusiastic at least about farms.

Speaker 1 (02:09:26):
Oh no, never, never, I just.

Speaker 3 (02:09:29):
I don't recall it ever happening.

Speaker 5 (02:09:31):
No.

Speaker 1 (02:09:33):
Well, my take on this is that when a human
being is born, they don't know what year they're born into.
They still have all those you know, all that the
potential and all that coating and you know, wiring, however
you want to call it. There's Jelly Brice's and Frank
Hamer's and Charles Winstead's out there and similar other people.

(02:09:56):
And sometimes they self select in the law enforcement and
frankly because of the way things are going nowadays, sometimes
they don't. And and sometimes these law enforcement agencies intentionally
select against those types. Uh that they don't they don't
want those kind of people anymore. But I refuse to

(02:10:19):
believe that, you know, those anomalous superstars are not among
us right now. It's just that I think perhaps that
the combination and confluence of events and challenges and the
culture and perception and all of that, it just hasn't
happened for them, you know, But who knows, someday in

(02:10:41):
the future, maybe stifled a bit.

Speaker 5 (02:10:45):
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, agencies don't want that. Administrators don't want that.

Speaker 1 (02:10:50):
No, they don't.

Speaker 5 (02:10:51):
They don't want. They don't want people who are warriors.

Speaker 1 (02:10:55):
They not no Mark. I remember when I was at
the I was a training sergeant at at the academy.
We had a couple of recruits wash out, and the
chief came out there and he was just kind of
sitting in my office and he was sort of just
kind of bsing with me, like he was kind of
being a regular guy, which was refreshing, frankly, and he

(02:11:18):
was like, Hey, so, what do you think happened with
so and so? Why did he not make it? And
here's what I said to him. It's like, Chief, you
can give all the training you want to a cocker spaniel.
You can train a cocker spaniel, you can send him
to every class there is. But at the end of
the day, no matter how much training you give a

(02:11:42):
cocker spaniel, you cannot turn him into a pit bull.
And the chief was like, yeah, that's right, Doug, Doug,
we should not be hiring pit bulls here. We don't
want pit bulls. So for like ten second and he
was like, yeah, right on, man, and then.

Speaker 4 (02:12:03):
He caught himself well and he couldn't and so you
could see you could literally see like, oh shit, I
just admitted that that's true.

Speaker 1 (02:12:14):
And now I have to smooth And so it was
like he was right back to being the politically correct chief.
You know, we don't want pit bulls working here, and
I'm like, I don't know, I don't know if I
kind of want if if my mom calls nine to
one one, I kind of want to pit bull showing up.

(02:12:35):
That's who I want showing up.

Speaker 6 (02:12:39):
Say that again for the ahead of our The head
of our academy changed that. They didn't she didn't want
They didn't want warriors there.

Speaker 7 (02:12:45):
Now they want gardians.

Speaker 1 (02:12:47):
Yeah, okay, you triggered his inner risk manager. Is what
you did? His inner risk manager, Frank, can I please
steal that from you by all means please, I'll give
you credit. But I got his inner risk manager. Yeah,

(02:13:08):
that's that's that's what happened. There was a brief moment
of clarity, and then the inner risk manager like came
out right over and said, oh no, we can't do.

Speaker 2 (02:13:18):
That, right right, So I got a topic for you
guys that goes in the opposite direction, and this kind
of addresses an issue instructors.

Speaker 1 (02:13:27):
May be running into.

Speaker 2 (02:13:31):
Imagine you're on the range, you're on the range and
you have a line of officers and they're all, we're
doing some kind of drill or something. And you have
those officers that they want to they want to they
want to go fast, they want to do good, but
they're constantly being held back because as a group, we
can only go so fast. We can only go as.

Speaker 1 (02:13:51):
Fast as the weakest link.

Speaker 2 (02:13:54):
And so I had officers complain to me, this is
I'm getting burnt out by this, this is this is
I want to do something more, I want to do
something faster, I want to do something more advanced. I
have to explain, we can only go as fast as
the end who has the problem officer who raises his
hand every time he passed to reload or something like that.

(02:14:15):
And they exist, they're absolutely out there, But how do
you keep things interesting? How do you keep those guys motivated?
Because one of the things, ultimately I had to also
explain is if you want to go fast, you might
need to do that on your own time. The department
isn't going to be able to do that because that's
going to be more resource intensive, that's going to take
more AMMO, it's going to take more time, and I need.

Speaker 1 (02:14:37):
To get everyone up.

Speaker 2 (02:14:38):
So if on a scale of one to ten, ten
being the highest skill set, and we have people at
four's that want to go to five, we can't go
there because we have two's that are just kind of
floundering where they are. So how have you gone about
helping these How do you help these people maintain this

(02:14:59):
motivation where they want to succeed and they want to
do good. But you know what, we really we don't
have the manpower, we don't have the ability to go
beyond this this very basic minimum standard.

Speaker 9 (02:15:14):
Why not Why can't.

Speaker 5 (02:15:15):
You do individual training with them on either either through
the agency, have a meet you on the range or
something to do individual training for stuff that they want
to accomplish and give them give them task drolls. Uh say,
here's a task I got you do. Go out the
range on your own, run yourself through this and see.
I'll help you if I can, but you know you
can do this on your own. Also. And the people,

(02:15:38):
I say, the people who want to learn to shoot,
they want to arner sell. I didn't get where I
am by relying on my department. I got there because
I paid for almost everything except my initial fire instructor
school out of my own pocket, every single one of them.
And I knew where I wanted to go. I knew
what I wanted to do. I knew what I need
to accomplish it, and I was blessed that I was
able to do it. But still the determination where I

(02:16:00):
wanted to do this was my motivation for getting, forgetting
to where I am today. Yeah. So, and you individuals
can go out and do their own meanness. I say,
there's a lot of YouTube university stuff and a lot
of stuff out there's cramp, but there's some good stuff
on there too. But you can get you can write
them up individual drills, or you could take them out,
you know, on a shift in an afternoon or when
you're there, maybe go out and meet with them and say, okay,
well how about doing this and start running through these skills.

(02:16:24):
As long as you are got to range access that
they can use. You're willing to give them the ammunition
or you know, if they're wanting to buy their own,
but give them some ammunition that fifty rounds a month
and say here's some things you can do with it,
and let them then go out and become better shooters.
Run individual drills. I mean you got to align drill
fun but run individual drills, I say, little competitions. You know,

(02:16:45):
run a run a four or five drill or run
a uh you know five yard or five yard round up,
And first off, it lets other people see where they are.
And you're not getting those people there, and there's the
people who need to help work with them individually to
build them up faster, to spend the time with them.
I'm a big believer in proactive training versus reactive, versus

(02:17:07):
doing remedial. You know, you've got a guy who struggles
getting to come to the range before the qualification, build
up their skill levels. When they come out and they
actually pass the qualification the first time through, say see
you can do this. That can give them motivation to
come out and want to do it again because they
now they know they can succeed and not be embarrassed
in front of their peers. And there's so much firem

(02:17:28):
training we can do in the station and never fire
around that nobody ever does pressure draws, practure reloads, practure
malfunction clearances, practice your flashlight drills. All those things can
be done with that one round of ammunition, not one
moment of overtime. We just don't do as fire infrastructures.
I mean, I can't tell you how many structus. I said, well,

(02:17:49):
we can't do a night shoot because they won't let me.
We'll come up with a way to get it done,
even if even if it means doing it in your
station with an airsoft gun. You can get this done
if you want to. It's a motivation of ways. Instructs
need to be able to make our suits the best
they can be, to get them to accomplish what they
want to do. And once we show them we give
a ship, usually they will give a ship. And I

(02:18:09):
believe that's the fact that female officer with exceptions to rule,
but she's all over there and said there are some
people who just shouldn't be cops.

Speaker 3 (02:18:17):
Yeah, we added a day to the firearms program, and
all those drills that I want to do with people
that we plug those in, like you know, the most
what we mostly get is the pre anticipation push or whatever.
The cool kitchen call them flinching nowadays. But we put
those drills in there in the middle of it, and

(02:18:39):
then if we still have I had four or five
of them in the not this cady at the last
academy that I just came back early from lunch and said,
if you want to get better, I got half an hour,
I got some stuff we can do to get you
pass this this thing, and all for them showed up
and we did it and everybody got through. So there's
a lot of stuff you can do that you're already doing.

(02:19:01):
Is the concern is just it's getting harder and harder.
It's getting worse and worse every every class. I don't
know why I'm blurring out, So.

Speaker 1 (02:19:11):
Matt, uh what I what I've done? Or I and
another guys that I know that I've worked with have
done in the past. If you have a higher performer,
you have a thoroughbred who shows up in your class
and he's getting bored, like you mentioned, and he needs
more or she needs more? What what I what we've

(02:19:33):
done is like all right, from this point forward, everything
needs to be a headshot for you. These the these
other people down here are are struggling to just hit
the damned paper. But you, from now on you need
to be doing one to the body, one to the
head every time. And if that means you need to

(02:19:54):
reload a little faster, we don't care go ahead and
do that. I'll tell you what on this real everybody
else is doing two to the body. You're doing a
failure drill. And I better see every single one of
your shots within that that tea box, right, and so
let's work on that for you. Don't worry about what

(02:20:18):
anybody else is doing. This is now your This is
now your your standard for yourself because you're operating at
a slightly higher level. Right. However, you also have to
stop and think about people that are in that lower
side of the bell curve, and like, hey, dude, let's
just focus on you getting these two shots into that

(02:20:41):
up thoracic right, It's all I want you to do.
Just we got an eight inch circle right here. I'm
sorry you can't see it. Not high enough. We got
an eight en circle right here. That's all you need
to focus on. And taking it back to Frank Hamer,
if anybody wants to read John Bossenecker's book, and it's

(02:21:03):
a very long book and he's sort of a historian,
Frank Hamer talked about where he aimed on people's bodies
and real world gunfights. He didn't use these exact words,
but when you get right down to it. What Frank
Hamer described was an upper thoracic below the collarbone, above

(02:21:24):
the belt line. Ultimately, he's talking about that IDPA basic zone.
Let's just get everybody shooting into that. If you have
a thoroughbred, get him to shoot a couple of extra rounds,
get her to shoot a failued real to that and
in the head. There's always a way to ramp it

(02:21:46):
up for somebody else on the line, there is. There's
always a way to make them, Hey, you're a cut
above everybody else in this line. I'm going to upgrade
you to a different standard now, and you damn we'll
better meet it. Give them something to do to add
on to that.

Speaker 2 (02:22:02):
Also, to do this as a loan instructor kind of sucks,
and to have assistants have additional eyes really helps everyone
and increase the safety. So if someone's a little concerned
about the safety aspect, having more than one firearms instructors
kind of a good thing.

Speaker 9 (02:22:21):
Yeah, you know, one thing we used to do is
we would divide the class. We would know who were
the shooters and who were the strugglers, and we would
split them and say, hey, shooters, you're going over here
to do this thing. Strugglers, you're coming over here to
do this thing, and we wouldn't isolate, right. We would
give the struggle, the people that struggle an opportunity to
try what the guys that were doing that were the shooters,

(02:22:44):
so they didn't feel like they were, you know, the
poor picked on kid that didn't get to do the
fun stuff. You got to let them have both. But
splitting the class, if you can, makes a big difference.
We literally did what.

Speaker 1 (02:22:55):
Mark talked about.

Speaker 9 (02:22:56):
One year.

Speaker 1 (02:22:57):
We ran the Night.

Speaker 9 (02:22:58):
Wall all indoors with sind guns and we tailored it.
Right after you were done with your call, you went
ahead and did a a SIMPS scenario and tried to
connect the dots for people that weren't quite understanding, to
try to make it real. And that seemed to be
successful with both the guys that wanted to be there
and the guys that didn't necessarily want to be there.

Speaker 1 (02:23:18):
Yeah, I got to run, y'all. The last thing I
want to say to everybody is anybody listening to this show,
there's nothing wrong with telling your recruits you're a gunfighter.

Speaker 5 (02:23:33):
Now.

Speaker 1 (02:23:34):
You're a gunfighter. Now you are, and people expect you
to be a gunfighter. And if you don't believe that,
let's recalibrate your belief system for just a moment.

Speaker 3 (02:23:48):
What is it that you.

Speaker 1 (02:23:49):
Think This lady working at a corporate headquarters expects you
to do, and shit hits the fan. She expects a
gunfighter to show up and stop that sound of a
bitch who's killing everybody she does. The church lady expects it,
the teacher expects it, the pastor expects it, the CEO

(02:24:10):
expects it. I don't care what line of work these
people are in. When they call nine one one, they
want a gunfighter to show up. And so therefore you
need to start crafting and directing yourself to be that gunfighter.
And that means studying previous gunfighters, the Frank Cambris, the

(02:24:32):
Jelly Brices, the Bill Jordans and everybody else. You need
to become a master of your craft. It's not about
what happens the ninety nine percent of the time in
your career. I firmly believe that most cops, when it
comes down to it, there's about fifteen minutes of cumulative

(02:24:57):
time in a cops career that truly and genuinely defines
everything we do. That's those weird moments. It's those thirty
seconds here, it's the minute there, it's the two minutes
there on something else, the fifteen minutes of your career.
When you add it all up, that's what really truly matters.

(02:25:22):
And we need to be unapologetic about being a gunfighter.
There's nothing wrong with it. In fact, that's what everybody wants,
even the most liberal, screaming white woman. That's what the
what the Karen? You know, the Karen types that the
the blue hair, Yeah, with the blue hair and multiple

(02:25:42):
multiples when push comes to so, what's that?

Speaker 6 (02:25:46):
What's that saying about? No one wants a warrior until
there's warrior shit to do. That's wants one.

Speaker 1 (02:25:51):
That's right, when push comes to shove, the liberal white
lady with blue hair and multiple face bearcings plea wants
a serious gunfighter to show up and solve the problem.
And there's nothing wrong with admitting that. And there's nothing
wrong with making yourself into that. And I think, look,

(02:26:15):
maybe I'm just me and an old guy being silly,
but there's nothing wrong with telling you recruits, make yourself
into that, imbracing, make yourself become that person.

Speaker 2 (02:26:28):
So Doug, before you take off, Yes, sir, and I'll
say my favorite phrase real quick. Make sure you're supporting
those sources that you find to be beneficial, Doug.

Speaker 1 (02:26:35):
Where can people find you? They can find me at
my website, which is r d Rtexas dot com. I'm
pretty easy to find search me on the internet. Primarily,
what I do is I'm a litigation consultant for attorneys.
I'm an expert witness and got to hate that word expert.
I hate it. I don't think of myself as an expert.

(02:26:58):
There's several people on this panel right now here, right
now who are more expert than me. But it's a
legal it's a legal term, and I hate it. Sometimes
I'm a testifying expert. Sometimes I'm a consulting expert. But
I primarily work for lawyers.

Speaker 7 (02:27:13):
Now.

Speaker 1 (02:27:14):
I try to work for good cops and good citizens
who have been forced into taking action when they had
no other choice. And I'm really enjoying this line of
work right now.

Speaker 2 (02:27:25):
And you also do parties in bar mitzvahs.

Speaker 1 (02:27:28):
Yes, I do, Yes, I do bar mitzvahs especially all right, Hey, man,
I really enjoyed talking to you all about this. There's
Frank Camer's and there's Jelly bricees out there right now.
They're out there, they're going to school, right now, they're

(02:27:48):
playing PlayStation five. They're playing. I'm telling you, these kids
exist right now. Please don't discount the younger generation. Let's
build everybody. Yeah, Okay, good stuff, all right, I gotta go,
y'all take care. Thanks for joining us. Thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:28:08):
So I think that that is a good transition into
getting some final thoughts, some final plugs. We've been we've
been going for two and a half hours, and it's
been an outstanding discussion.

Speaker 1 (02:28:20):
So I will reiterate. Make sure you, the viewer.

Speaker 2 (02:28:23):
The listener, make sure you are supporting those sources that
you have found to be beneficial. What I mean by
that is, if you like what these guys had to say,
make sure you're finding them on social media. Make sure
you are giving likes, make sure you.

Speaker 1 (02:28:37):
Are subscribing or following or whatever.

Speaker 2 (02:28:40):
And most importantly, share as well, because if someone's share,
if someone's sharing something on their page and it helps
you understand something better, that probably needs to be shared.
Not only that comments are beneficial, these algorithms do not
work in our favor. Good quality information is not popular
right now, so most likely you've been listening now for

(02:29:03):
just under two and a half hours. Make sure you're
given a share, make sure you're given a like comment.
It is very much appreciated. This is available on a
on video form on Rumble. It's also on audio multiple
audio avenues.

Speaker 1 (02:29:18):
If you're not.

Speaker 2 (02:29:19):
Aware of the other check it out. Sometimes some of
the videos do provide some visual things, but for the
most part, the the audio versions really are just wonderful,
wonderful conversations with so much good knowledge. So with that
in mind, let's get final thoughts, final plugs.

Speaker 11 (02:29:40):
Dave, why do you want me to go first.

Speaker 1 (02:29:46):
Of everyone here?

Speaker 2 (02:29:48):
I think you've been on more ah okay.

Speaker 1 (02:29:51):
Because usually that's the way with you.

Speaker 2 (02:29:55):
You are that guy, that guy, and when he posts
on social media, I don't need to see who did it,
and I can tell, oh, yeah, that's a that's a Similarly,
I get.

Speaker 5 (02:30:03):
I can do the same thing. I see a picture, I.

Speaker 6 (02:30:04):
Know it's yeah, really yeah, I tell you, man, Dave,
and I've been having this conversation lately. It's the photos, man,
the photos. It's like, how do you do that? I
try and try and try. It's just not working for me.
I was not meant to do photos, right, some people
not meant to be cops. I was not meant to
be a photographer, Dave. You can fall back, you can

(02:30:26):
retire as a cop and be a photographer.

Speaker 1 (02:30:28):
Man.

Speaker 11 (02:30:29):
Yeah, I think most of the people who want to pay
money for photography I don't want to have as a client.
So photography is about understanding the quality and the direction
of light. If you understand that the clicking part with
the lenses and all that stuff is easy, that sounds

(02:30:51):
like official. Seriously, it's the quality and directionality of the light.
So my, but I don't know. We posted it two
three days ago one on Thursday, with that forty eight
M and P snub with Steve's wadecutters in it. I'm
not gonna I'm not gonna name drop him because I

(02:31:14):
don't want it to be an embarrassing thing. It was
like more of a wow to me. A pretty well
known industry media guy shot me a text and said, sir,
how did you do this black magic? And I was
like really, which which for me that was like oh wow,

(02:31:38):
just just understanding, like anyway, I guess, I guess since
you know I'm a big time influencer and all that
stuff because other people say I am recog work. Yeah,
I guess you could follow me on Instagram. It's DCM
sixty five, d s I M sixty five if you
we didn't talk about it this uh this episode. However,

(02:32:02):
I also am the co owner of DNA Guns. I'm
the David, he's the Abe, and we put an end
in the middle because we are not very thoughtful when
it comes to coming up with interesting things. We have
them for rent. We sell them when we come across transferables.

(02:32:22):
And if you have a machine gun which needs repaired,
we can either get or make the parts for you
so your e replaces ale gun. We can help you
with and you do parties. Absolutely. We do parties in
bar Mitzva's and you know, if if the money's right,
we will even get you a car to shoot and

(02:32:42):
or explode.

Speaker 7 (02:32:43):
Five.

Speaker 11 (02:32:44):
We have done that before and it's lots of fun. Yeah,
but that's it. Yeah, if you want to follow me
on Instagram, I post that kind of silliness and uh.

Speaker 1 (02:32:56):
Oh yeah that's nice. It's they're good looking pictures.

Speaker 3 (02:33:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:33:01):
Well, you know, it's sharing the journey. And I just
happened to Matt Drop Coast saying, yeah, it's all about
the light, but it can also be fa and be there.
So probably only I would say probably the pictures I
post on Instagram, I would say fifty percent of them
are shot at F five to six Matt, and then

(02:33:23):
probably forty percent of them are shot at F four,
and then the rest are a mixture of anywhere from
F one to two to F sixteen. That's kind of
the range I shoot and and I shoot with Fuji
APSC stuff and then also Fuji Medium format stuff, but
kind of in that range. But the vast majority are
at F four or F five six, with F five

(02:33:44):
to six being the being the largest number. Just tends
to give enough enough depth of field, which is the
amount in focus.

Speaker 6 (02:33:53):
Yeah, so not just my problem, not just asking my
problem as my cell phone doesn't.

Speaker 1 (02:33:58):
Do that, does it exactly?

Speaker 3 (02:34:00):
Yeah, that's what you mean.

Speaker 11 (02:34:02):
You mean this, You know these things that have like
you know, oh wow, look at there's there's multiple lenses
and multiple sensors.

Speaker 7 (02:34:09):
But yeah, make make m we'll get the paycheck.

Speaker 6 (02:34:14):
I have no idea, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:34:20):
Yeah, no, it's just everybody's got to figure out their look.
And you know what a heck of a lot of
good photography is done with one of these. I just
have the equipment on how to use the fancier stuff.
One of these, I could I could probably do seventy
five percent of what I do with the high quality cameras.
As far as as far as how things would look,

(02:34:42):
I could probably get it about seventy five percent there
with this, and people who know better be able to tell.

Speaker 3 (02:34:48):
H But you can do a lot of good work
with with.

Speaker 11 (02:34:51):
Just a cell phone, these modern cell phones that do
have the you know, the better quality sensors and all
that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (02:34:58):
And I mean helmet, we do a whole.

Speaker 6 (02:35:01):
Can you change the things and these whatever? It depends
a little little f numbers in here or whatever. Uh,
it depends on the phone.

Speaker 11 (02:35:12):
Occasionally, I know Sony has done a few, but most
of these already fixed. Uh they're they're at a fixed aperture.

Speaker 7 (02:35:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:35:23):
So all those little funky, little extra little whatever lenses
don't do me any good.

Speaker 11 (02:35:26):
Then well they change your they change your field of view,
so your your angle of you however you want, Okay, Yeah,
and then that's that's what the big ones are. And
then the little ones are sensors for focus and uh,
and uh like directionality detection all it's like triangulation lasers

(02:35:46):
and stuff like that.

Speaker 6 (02:35:48):
Yeah, I'll talk I'll talk to you offline about this.

Speaker 1 (02:35:52):
All right.

Speaker 11 (02:35:54):
This got way off in the weeds, didn't it.

Speaker 3 (02:35:57):
Oh yeah, anyway.

Speaker 2 (02:35:58):
Yeah, speaking of which, when I do end this, we
still are connected, it just won't be live. So after
the logo goes, if you don't have to take off yet,
let's stick around for a moment. Okay, Yeah, Warren.

Speaker 3 (02:36:14):
I knew that's next idy thing.

Speaker 7 (02:36:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (02:36:21):
Well, first, just always be evolving, because I mean, we
always need to be evolving in the training. And the
big chunk of that is trying to figure out how
to relate as as I get older. Because that happened
just a minute ago. I don't know how that happened
to when it happened, but it was just like that,
and all of a sudden, I can't connect to the
twenty somethings anymore. So it's really important to keep evolving.

(02:36:42):
And you get that from the feedback. And that was
what I had written down to say, and then sure enough,
Jordan just gave me something. I'm going to add Barg's
book to the reading list that I give out to
the rookies during the academy. I don't know why I
didn't do that before. I have no idea, but that's

(02:37:02):
that feedback is a big part of it is getting
that feedback from the kids. And I said, I said,
we don't read the the evaluations. We don't read that
kind of part of the evaluation. We get the feedback
directly from them and actually talking to them. I think
that's the key of keeping at least halfway up with
it all. Other than that, check out the talent code.
Just on a side note, and then I'm really honored.

(02:37:25):
This is a this is one heck of a panel
of folks. I'm really just honored to be here and
appreciate that for letting me come. I don't have anything
to plug except for maybe, uh maybe go out to
police Want and check out check out and police Want
and help my ratings a little bit there.

Speaker 7 (02:37:44):
That works, Steve, I'm just staying busy making m O.

Speaker 6 (02:37:59):
Catch me at high Desertdesert cartridge dot com, Instagram. You
just put in high Desert Cartridge, It'll come up there somewhere.
Facebook page two. Do you have any questions just when
new message on any of those You're getting me direct,

(02:38:21):
so you're not getting any of my workers or anything.
My numbers out there. I won't put it out here now,
but it's out there. I answer the phone at the
shop I really employ. If you call the shop and
no one answers, it means my machines are running. And
I always we always answer the the you know, we

(02:38:44):
always get back on messages, So please leave a message.
We'll always get back to you. And if it's something
more technical, they hand it to me and I'll you'll
talk to me personally. I still love talking to the
customers in conversion with people. That's part of theob I
really like, I don't want to get my company that
big to where I can't do that, And right now

(02:39:05):
I think it's it's growing, but it's it's at a good,
good pace to where I'm still able to do that
and still work with people on loads if they want
something specific of what I already make within the calibers
already make. If I need to tweak load form a
different bullet weight, whatever, it's not that big a deal.

Speaker 7 (02:39:21):
It's just right now.

Speaker 6 (02:39:22):
It's just it's just fitting it in. It's just fit
stop it.

Speaker 1 (02:39:31):
The other day you're going to make me buy a
thirty eight Super Yeah, yeah, I got that would Smith
and Wesson. Yeah, it is.

Speaker 6 (02:39:44):
The Super was. This is how it's it's really that
busy is trying to do.

Speaker 7 (02:39:49):
I don't do.

Speaker 6 (02:39:49):
I'm not the typical person when they do. I don't
know about typical. But when I do load development, it
takes me a while, probably longer than the average low developer,
because I'm always tweaking with different powders and pressures and
trying to get it where I wanted to get it,
especially when it comes to hollow points, working those xtps

(02:40:11):
to get them to do what I want them to do,
which is the penetration and the expansion and expansion like
xtps do. People don't like the expansion of XTP. I said, well,
then you've got a really good wide, jagged wadcutter that's
really going to do you well. If you've been to

(02:40:33):
a lot of you I've been to a lot of
autopsies and stuff. It's like, I go back to the
same thing. You know, name one threat that's been stopped
by expansion alone.

Speaker 7 (02:40:42):
I'll wait.

Speaker 6 (02:40:44):
People talk about penetration when you talk about hunting, but
you're talking about stopping threats on the street. You know,
two legged types. You just don't hear about penetration much.
It's all about expansion, and it's like you're missing the
point and hitting yeah, and hitting yeah, that's the main thing.
But yeah, Hi Doesert Cartridge still applying AMMO to a

(02:41:11):
lot of good people. Bill Blawer's top Rock Tactical. Kyle
before we just tweaked my two twenty three loads. He's
a big two twenty three guy, does a lot of
rifle classes, long range stuff. So we tweaked both the
fifty five and the seventy seven grains, so it's new
and improved. Kyle approved. Still working with the River. A

(02:41:35):
lot of the revolver guys in the industry. That's a
super came across with Bruce Cartwright from Sac Tactical. Bruce
was a retired FBI guy. Uh, that was too spurred
on the thirty eight super and then everybody else just
kind of just collapsed on top of me. I know,

(02:41:56):
Bruce must have said something to somebody and it got out,
and then I started getting messes and it's like.

Speaker 9 (02:42:00):
Ah, and that took me quite a while to get
it out.

Speaker 6 (02:42:05):
I sent out stuff, took some guys on Instagram and
then sent some to Bruce and I waited for feedback.
And that's another thing that I that I do is
I don't just develop it myself. Before I put the
final inspection on it and stick it on the website
for sale. It usually goes I'll pick a few people
to test some stuff for me and test it and

(02:42:25):
let me give you some feedback what you're seeing with
different guns, make sure it's functioning and different platforms, et cetera,
et cetera. So it does take a while for me
at least to get a load from I want to
get it from here and I want to get it
on the website for sale. It might take three to
six months, only because a lot of it is I'm

(02:42:47):
still having a load and fill orders and so just time.
I mean, I think if I was to do it,
it will still take some times. I got to ship
the AMO out to people and wait for feedback, and
so it's still going to take a while. It I'm
really happy with what we're providing out there. Guaranteed it's
been steal approvaled by several people, not just me.

Speaker 11 (02:43:10):
So there's that I should probably add things I want
to plug is Steve. I wish I could afford to
just shoot Steve's AMMO, Like it's in order to get
the level of precision I get at I can get
out of Steve's AMO. It's most most factory stuff just

(02:43:34):
won't do it. And unless you're talking about like the
high grade match stuff, which costs way more than Steve's
practice AMO, and Steve's practice AMO is ninety nine percent
of what the high end match AMO is from other companies,
and it's practice AMO. Let alone his xtps, which are
which are better, and uh yeah, they're there are sometimes

(02:43:55):
where I'll shoot a drill or shoot a target or whatnot.
I'll be shooting xtps and I'll I'll get a couple
of people that make it that that will send me
a DM and go and go, why are you shooting
expensive ammo? It's like, yeah, because it's the AMMO that
was in my gun. And yeah, I know it cost
me ten dollars to shoot this drill. But at the
same time, you know, this is the AMMO that if
I have to make extra holes in somebody, it's what's

(02:44:17):
in the gun. And like and and I'm kind of
diving back into loading AMMO and to get stuff that's
that's similar in precision to what Steve's AMMO is is
incredibly time intensive. I just I'm so impressed. I mean
I could probably talk for twenty minutes at how impressed
I am at Steve's AMMO. So yeah, additional plug for Steve.

Speaker 1 (02:44:39):
I'll shut up now, Well it's warranted.

Speaker 4 (02:44:42):
Dan and.

Speaker 6 (02:44:47):
Yeah, and I'm hiring these two people. Also now a
new proud sponsor for a primary and secondary on the podcast.

Speaker 1 (02:44:54):
That's true, It's true.

Speaker 7 (02:44:59):
Mar.

Speaker 5 (02:45:02):
Okay. So most of my stuff is private or contract
work with government agencies, although I do have an open
Roman school coming up in June. It's my annual school
up in Wyoming. It is June thirteenth through the twentieth.
We're going to be doing handguns for five days, troll rifles,
some other rifles, and practical rifle, and then a two

(02:45:24):
day precision rifle class. You reach me at AFTT one
seven at MSN dot com if you want information on
the class is a Devils Tower, Wyoming. I'm there every year.
It will be my thirty fourth year up there. Thirty
fourth year up there, straight through. I've had students. Students

(02:45:46):
that come to this class have been there all thirty
four years. I'm very honored having a like family and
a whole group up there is like family. Also, do
any private things that you need if you need to
contact me, I'll work on trying to get private stuff.
Was I retired, I guess I just left there on
a post and just left the entertaining organizations I was with.
So AFTT is all I have left, and I'll do

(02:46:08):
that for a few more years before I decided that
I'm done with all of it. So I think I'm
putting some good stuff out there. I want to try
to keep it going because I enjoyed doing it and
I see the results. So you can contact me there
again AFTT one seven at MSN dot com, and you.

Speaker 1 (02:46:24):
Do parties and permitses. I do not, Oh, Frank.

Speaker 8 (02:46:31):
However, Frank however, Yes, that's me. This has been a
great conversation. I've really enjoyed it. I will again throw
out obviously the shameless plug. But before I do that,
mentors and mentees that last segment that we were talking through,

(02:46:55):
maybe we'd talk offline or after the logo, just real quick,
because I got an eye idea on that I am
located in beautiful Wyoming, Mark, I will see you in
June this year. Bring me some ten twenty twos.

Speaker 1 (02:47:11):
To play with.

Speaker 8 (02:47:15):
Hopefully we can make it up there for a few days.
If I can help you out, of course, you know
I will. Devil's Tower is about an hour from where
I'm sitting right now, so it's really a nice easy
drive up to train with really good people and it
is very much like a family. That's what I enjoy

(02:47:36):
so much about it. My outfit SRF Training and Consulting
SRF Training in Consulting dot com. I have a blog
on there. I write too occasionally, and I do have
a certain amount of fun. I don't have an Instagram.
I'm Instagram illiterate, but I do have a Facebook SRF

(02:47:58):
Training and Consulting.

Speaker 7 (02:47:59):
I'm there.

Speaker 8 (02:48:01):
I've got a class coming up in August here in town,
and it's titled Fighting Pistol. It's a one day class
and it's a lot of that gunfighter stuff that we've
been talking about tonight is what we're going to be
doing there, and it's aimed really more for the armed

(02:48:22):
professional who's out there training on their own dime. And
I do offer discounts for active and retired law enforcement. Well,
so if you want to come up to the windy
high planes and train with me, love to have you.
I'm also doing a two day shotgun Skills and Manipulations
class in Alabama, Yeah, Alabama in October. That should be

(02:48:48):
a lot of fun. And you can find the classes
that I do on shooting classes dot com. Just there's
only two of us in Wyoming that are on that platform,
so I'm one of them. Pretty easy to find.

Speaker 1 (02:49:05):
Cool. Well, big thank you to the panelists. Awesome discussion.
As per the norm.

Speaker 2 (02:49:15):
If any listeners or panelists or viewers have a topic
they want to have addressed at some point, and I
am all ears love doing.

Speaker 1 (02:49:24):
These, love putting together the right.

Speaker 2 (02:49:28):
Collection of people to comment and they turn out educational
and it's just great. Big thank you to the listener
of the viewer you. Also, big thank you to the
Patreon subscribers. If you go to patreon dot com slash
primary and secondary, you can help support the network. They're
different tiers, they're different benefits that helps this continue. Additionally,

(02:49:51):
big thank you to High Desert Cartridge, sponsor of the podcast.
I have a Revolver class coming up now next month
and I will be placing an order for all my
amil from that. For that course, it's going to be
high desert because it works, it works, it's accessible, it
it's available. Actually, i think i'll say available very successful.

(02:50:15):
It's affordable. Get runs great in my guns.

Speaker 6 (02:50:19):
And if.

Speaker 2 (02:50:22):
If you happen to be one of those revolver people
and you happen to like like those snubbies, man, the
wadcutters can't be beat.

Speaker 1 (02:50:29):
I'm a big fan of.

Speaker 2 (02:50:33):
Steve's wadcutters, though for the class I probably am not
going to have just wadcutters because there's going to be
some reloads and reloading wad cutters that just.

Speaker 11 (02:50:42):
Sucks, So just have some route.

Speaker 2 (02:50:44):
Yeah, but that is pretty much it. I don't know
what episode I have coming up. I don't even know
if I've even thought of one, so we'll figure it out.
But that I think is pretty much everything. So if
you're watching this on Rumble, I never had to take
it down because it was just live subscriber whatever, so

(02:51:07):
you can see when they come up. I do post
regularly on Facebook before these occur. Patreon also gets a
heads up. Patreon subscribers also of five dollars or more
getting a little more behind the scenes. But that is
pretty much everything on my end. I'm going to end
the stream now so I can talk to these guys
a little bit more without your prying eyes or ears,

(02:51:29):
because this is secret stuff or something I don't know.
But yeah, we're at two hours fifty one minutes, good runtime,
good conversation, so we'll talk to you later

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P&S ModCast 451 - Common Core Firearms Training

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