Allison Mack Life After NXIVM Episode 3 Exposed: Master Over Slave.

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Roberta in the truth zone
like hitting raw, spot light shine, and she exposed in
the fluff to punk in the myths, breaking their facade.
This is glass City, respect the squad on these NYC blocks,
where the skyline flects Big Roberta Glass lights and lies, where.

Speaker 2 (00:25):
The truth rig and it's just Frosters.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Your story's unravel She's a map through the madness of
gritty gravel, pump glass, don't pin, the facts, don't break.
She's a stone that's called you feel the quake, exposed
to tale sish with cooked seams, justice and the lens shattered,
fake dreams, screams, fout, killers, painted heroes in the skies.
She burning proper canda with fire in her eyes. No

(00:48):
glamour for the guilty. She call it straight. She backs victims,
the voice, stay away, stay stats in receipts, no spin,
no clutter, cold cases, whisper. She cuts through the mutter
truths her tempo, don't confuse the beat.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
She's standing for the real while.

Speaker 4 (01:02):
You're taking a seat.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
Who crimes the block?

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Facts the artillery spin in those lies, so she checks
that misery. Tad bloyd tails get smashed, No time to play.
She's blast hard, break the falses, save the day. Yeah, yeah,
who crimes the block facts the artillery spin.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
In those lies?

Speaker 1 (01:27):
Well she checks that misery tab Lloyd tails get smashed.

Speaker 3 (01:33):
Okay, here we go. Hello Tammy, Hello tater Bug, Hello Doris,
did I miss I? Hope I'm not missing anyone? Dougie
Morrison Hello, ain't no holla back Oul. It is my
great pleasure to be with a very old and dear

(01:56):
friend of the podcast. Liz from True Crimes Podcast. Hello, welcome.
Really we did we actually back in the day? Was
that before the before they before? Was it after arrests
or before arrests? We did a whole v week which

(02:17):
was the week of Nexium. It was one of your
brilliant ideas. It was we did a podcast for every
day of the week, the great ideas. Yeah, so they
used to. So Nextium used to celebrate Keith Raneri's birthday
with a week of Nexium. It was like a get together,

(02:41):
a Nexium get together and yeah, Vanguard week v week.
So we uh. We also also a person I go
to for information often on the Mandon Knox case or
a Meredith Kercher case. More like it welcome, Welcome Liz
from True Crimes podcast.

Speaker 5 (03:03):
Yes, thank you for having me.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
So how are you taking this, Alison mac after Nixium podcast?
What are you thinking of it? What are you feeling
listening to it?

Speaker 5 (03:18):
Well, first, I was stunned that she suddenly decided to
come out now years later. You know, I haven't looked
at this case.

Speaker 3 (03:25):
In years, really, and.

Speaker 5 (03:29):
When I heard that she's coming out now, I thought, oh, okay,
let's see what she has to say now. Other Nextian
members Sarah Edmondson and India Oxenbourg, others have come out
with podcasts, but she just seems to come out a lot,
a bit bigger. With Vanessa Grigordias, I can't say her name,

(03:55):
and I was like, wow, she's coming out big with
the you know, professional journalists. And so I started listening
to it. I thought, oh, no, oh no, you know,
she just seems to be besides you know, trying to
explain away what she did, she seems to be still
supportive of Keith venireannexiom. That's what the impression I've gotten

(04:15):
from it.

Speaker 3 (04:17):
Right, Allison mackt for me at least has been a
big question mark in this story. And there are times
when I felt very harshly towards her, or I judged
her very harshly, and there were other times where I
had a lot of compassion for her. But then I
went to her sentencing hearing, and it is described in
some ways well in this podcast. She was surrounded by

(04:40):
just an army of her family, and she came in
dressed and makeup to the nines and put on a performance.
It was what I felt was a performance, and I
felt very little and I thought, well, she's saying some
of the right things, but she doesn't. I just felt

(05:02):
like she wanted to say the right thing, she wanted
to get the It was all about saving herself and
getting the smallest amount of time as possible. And I
was disappointed by how I thought three years for what
she was going to do. I think with the federal
sentence like this, you get fifty four days off for
every year of good behavior. So she ended up doing

(05:24):
twenty one months. For her part. Her charges were racketeering charges,
which is it's really for her part in dos, you know,
is really what made her go down with this is
taking collateral and holding people against their you know, holding

(05:47):
people basically essentially, it's ransom. You know, so when I
heard this podcast, my feeling was when I was judging
her harshly, and Jessica Jane, who was the only person
who spoke at her sentencing hearing in person, we had
her an audio submission from Tabitha who was Alison Mack's

(06:09):
assistant as well. I thought Jessica Jones call her her psychopath,
and she did call her a monster, and maybe I thought,
maybe she's closer to the truth, because how could Alison
Mack be complaining about her family having to listen to
her victims' impact statements. I thought that was so callous

(06:34):
and so lacking any kind of self awareness on her part.

Speaker 5 (06:41):
Well, you know, back then I wasn't in court, but
I remember thinking not really paying much attention to Alison Mack.
I thought, like many people, that she was just a
victim of Keith Vanieri, and it was And for me,
the worst people were Keith Vanieri, Nancy Salzman, and Brahmfman,

(07:01):
like they were the access of evil, and I focused
on them mainly. I mean, Allison was just a big
name because of a small villain and whatnot. So but
I didn't really take it seriously that she would be
such a you know, horrible, you know, mean person. Look
at her, you know, does she look intimidating? Like I
just didn't. It didn't jive. But now that she's doing

(07:23):
this podcast, now I'm getting more of a sense of
how she really was. And now I'm like, oh, yeah,
she was a monster. I think, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:33):
I mean, you just knew with what what you were
listening to in court and Keith and Ay's trial, you're thinking,
these people there was always that cruelty and and thanks
for You're right. You did look at Alison Mack in
court because she pulled focus. She's an actress, she has
that star quality. Your eyes go to her. Also, I
was in the bathroom with her, and this is at

(07:56):
a time when there was a lot of attention being
place on Alison Mack had done this interview right before
they all got arrested, saying that she the idea for
the branding was just like a sorority and a tattoo,
and it was her idea. And so it was in
this long pre trial sentencing hearing that I was in

(08:19):
the bathroom stall and she was talking to all her
nextian defendants and they were talking about how long the
hearing was, and Alison Mack requested via her lawyers that
they take a break and they go to the bathroom
and she said, well, I had to take one for
the team. And it was just like one of those
statements that was very precedent at that time. You know,

(08:40):
I'm going to take one for the team. And I
felt like yelling from the bathroom stall like you did,
taking you know, taking responsibility for the branding. And she
was she liked being in charge. She likes being She
likes being in charge. She likes having power and control.
And as an actor, you don't have, even even as

(09:01):
successful actor as she was, you don't have much power
in control. And this is what this cult provided her,
lots of power and control over others' lives. And what
do you think about her going into social work?

Speaker 5 (09:16):
That's frightening, especially since she describes her podcast how amazing
she found Nancy Salzman's quote unquote therapy, and now she
wants to be a therapist. So I'm like, huh, you
know where's this coming from? You know, not a good fit.

(09:37):
I don't think anyone. I think she needs a lot
more therapy. I think she needs to be reconsidering and
thinking about her, you know nexium and its role and
how not amazing it was. What really was going on here?

Speaker 3 (09:54):
Yeah, I shared with you what happened to me at
Nancy Salzman's sentencing hearing. Right, she hypnotized me, not hypnotized.
You don't know this story. No, I hate sharing it
because I'm afraid of being judged because it sounds like
I'm a weirdo. But she's the number two neuro linguistic
programmer in the world. And she started to share her

(10:15):
message and it started going forward and back in time,
and so you can't you're trying to follow it. You know,
when you were in court, you're really concentrating and you're
taking notes, and I was taking notes and it's going
both forwards and backwards. And I got out and the
people that were with me or saw me said, I
just looked dazed, And I said, oh, that was really weird.

(10:38):
That was really weird. I went home and I slept
for two days straight. Whoa, whoa.

Speaker 5 (10:45):
So that's her testimony in court? Did that?

Speaker 3 (10:48):
Yeah? I believe she was using some kind of I
think she was trying to hypnotize the judge. She ended
up hypnotizing me. I was exhausted by it. I just completely,
you know, just flew it.

Speaker 5 (11:00):
You know, there's so much about this cult that we
really need to unpack because she mesmerized the whole audience
of people. She's known to do that, and I'm like,
where did she learn this from? You know, how did
she get so powerful?

Speaker 3 (11:14):
Like this? Right, it's the same technique. If you've seen
Waken the Giant Within, Tony Robbins uses the same technique,
you can see, uh, I don't know if you want
me to show it again, but you can see Keith
Runari using it on Alison where he's punching words like joy,
he's using his hands, he's hypnotizing her and.

Speaker 5 (11:36):
Then start, yeah, because you said this, I did watch
when you said that clip, but I see I don't
know it. So I was like, I didn't play the
clip again and show and like point out.

Speaker 3 (11:46):
How they're killing it, because yeah, it's an odd thing.
It's painting pictures with words. There has been a rumor
that Donald Trump and his family are very into using it.
A lot of politicians that people who want to have
undue influence over each other people interesting interestingly, now I'm

(12:08):
forgetting his name. He's a cult expert, but he's been
called out for using it without no not. Rick Ross
is the greatest, He's the og of cult experts. He's
actually called out on Rick Ross's website. Uh, he's he
does a lot of media and I just can't think
of his name comes to mind. Yeah, Steve, Steve is

(12:31):
that what his name is? Steve?

Speaker 5 (12:33):
He wrote a book.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
Yeah, Steve Hassan has been accused of using it without
telling people that he's using it on people he's supposedly
helping to get out of cults. There's been a lot
of complaints or some complaints about him in his unethical ways.
It's not it's not fully ethical. Uh, you know, to

(12:55):
use a famous Keith R. Nary anexiom word I don't
to use just because people don't know that you're using
it on them. So it's a way of getting.

Speaker 5 (13:04):
The leg That's what I'm using it.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
It's like punching words, painting words trying to So if
you use joy, you're punching that word joy and trying
to get people to think about joy while you're saying
joy to get them to feel joy around. That's a
great question, I wonder. Yeah, I don't know. I never

(13:28):
thought of it.

Speaker 5 (13:30):
Because the way she was describing Keith Vanieri and meditating
on him, and how she meditated and saw his face
and all this and the rock and the paper, it
seemed very neural linguistic to me. But I don't know
if i'd hear it, if i'd know it.

Speaker 3 (13:45):
Yeah, you know, if you're very My mother's very subceptial
to it because she's an artist and very visual. So yeah,
so yeah, I was thinking the same thing possible. Yeah,
So it's getting so if you have a good feeling
around joy and you're punching joy with whatever, you know,

(14:05):
say you're trying to sell a toaster, you know, and
you're gonna have lots of joyous moments joy, you know,
with this toaster when the toast gets all crispy and warm,
and you know, well, so I pictures like putting yourself
in the scene, you know, like yeah, Well.

Speaker 5 (14:21):
On one example that stuck to me is I was
trying to learn this, but it's one of those things
that's so difficult to identify when when it's going on.
But one example was the way people phrase things like
I remember the sentence if you say, you know with
me sleep sleep with me? Is a very important part
of my life. Right, And you're using the phrase sleep

(14:42):
with me in there likeing that message.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
That too, that too, that's another technique. Yeah, that's right.
So you're putting sleep with me and getting the idea
that they you know, that that's their idea to sleep
with you, you know, if you're trying to seduce. Soone, okay,
here we go. Here is Keith meets Allison?

Speaker 6 (15:01):
Yes, why is that importance?

Speaker 3 (15:12):
And it was it was fascinating to me that she said,
how do you like to gain control over men? She goes, well,
I'll touch arm, I'll you know, flirt. Look at look
at the first thing Keith Nary does when she will.

Speaker 6 (15:25):
So, yes, why is that importance?

Speaker 3 (15:38):
They met each other's match. Two people want influence over
other people. So Keith or Nary first touches her arm,
she touches his arm. It's a way of right and
her hand. What do you think about her hand over
her mouth? What is this is? She doesn't when other

(15:59):
people that area them to know what she's saying? Is
that what this is about? What is this handle them
out thing going on?

Speaker 5 (16:05):
I mean, I can't mean you're lying, right, It's one
of the symbols of lying or body language of it.

Speaker 3 (16:14):
M yeah, right, any touching in the face that will
trigger a police officer for sure, because I think it is.

Speaker 6 (16:28):
Because so much has I am he's.

Speaker 3 (16:30):
Wrapped up in irons.

Speaker 6 (16:33):
Give me an example, when I go.

Speaker 7 (16:36):
To see a film or a piece of artwork, or
something happens to me is so epcited and one blissful, joyful.

Speaker 8 (16:48):
You know, you can practice generating an extreme feeling of
joy over anything.

Speaker 1 (16:56):
Methods that we have, especially to Cee. It's one of
our intensivess's it called now civilization.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Civilization, it's an odd little hand gesturesis one of our intensives.

Speaker 5 (17:13):
Well, I noticed he took the word joy from her, right.
She was like, right, joyful. He's like, well joy, you know.

Speaker 3 (17:19):
You're interested in joy, You're interested in experiencing joy. Now
I'm going to sell you joy via my program.

Speaker 5 (17:25):
Mm hmm exactly.

Speaker 4 (17:27):
Oh what if artistic endeavors were really bogus?

Speaker 3 (17:31):
What if?

Speaker 6 (17:32):
What if it was just an excuse for those who
couldn't do it? It is sometimes.

Speaker 7 (17:39):
The most exciting that you've ever felt to have, all
the time, independent of art bad.

Speaker 3 (17:46):
What's the most excitement you've ever felt now he's connecting
all these excitement joys. He's what he has done is
he's profiled her. He thinks she's one who wants excitement
joy and he's going to sell all these things with
his program and with him.

Speaker 5 (18:05):
But don't you find it odd that he insults her first? Though?
He says, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 3 (18:12):
But that's a technique of every con men and every
pickup man. Have you ever seen those programs where they
teach men how to pick up women. No, we say
to put down women, tease them, put them because it
puts you in a submissive position where you have to
chase after the other person's approval.

Speaker 5 (18:32):
Oh that makes sense because he's dealing with the Hollywood star,
so he's going to do that. Yeah, it makes sense.

Speaker 3 (18:37):
He's going to make her wait for him. He's the star.

Speaker 5 (18:40):
Right, he had to wait an hour for him?

Speaker 3 (18:42):
Yeah, right, right, Ma. But he knows he has her.
I mean, he says, it's interesting to look at him, saying, well,
what if it's just bogus and he's seeing if that lands.
If it didn't land, he would have gone a different direction.
He would have put up some they're kind of calmline.
But now that it. Hey, Georgia, nice to see you.

(19:06):
You know, if Da hadn't landed, he would have switched
focus and tried something else. But because it lands now,
who's going to go that direction? He knows are recruit
you know.

Speaker 5 (19:18):
Oh yeah, yeah, for sure he wants her. And also,
oh yeah, she said that the first time she met him,
she thought, eh, he looks like one of my dad's friends.
Like she said, she wasn't impressed by him then, So
this is basically the first or second time she met him.
She just the first time this evening, right, she came
to that evening and she didn't have a question, so

(19:38):
that she came back three o'clock in the morning. Well, anyways,
she's looking a lot more flirtatious than someone who thinks
the guy looks like her dad. That's all I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, what did she think about? She said she liked
to manipulate men. She wanted men to think about sex
when talking about talking to her. What did you think
about all that? And she's frustrated with women.

Speaker 5 (20:00):
Well, she's grown up in Hollywood. She's a childhood actress.
Like you said, abusive situation there, and maybe that's the
only way she knows how to be with these older men,
these directors and whatnot.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
Yeah, yeah, odd, Yeah, Georgia brings up that she's like
she was no star. She lucked at out. She's not
a great actress, but she does have that star when
you see you're in persons, she does have that star quality.

Speaker 5 (20:27):
She does focus.

Speaker 3 (20:30):
She's a great actress. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (20:32):
No, but the kids loved that show. That was a
very popular show at the time.

Speaker 3 (20:37):
Yeah, she had something, she had something. She had some
presence that you just watched her when you know, when
she's in her room, your eye is going to go
to her. Whatever that thing is. That certain start, he
did not have it at all. I mean he really
needed the props of Claire Bromman. I mean he just
looks like a schlub. He needed, you know, he had
all these people around him saying he's a two hundred

(20:59):
and forty the IQ smartest man in the world. He
had none of that kind of star power, star presence.
I mean, he just looks like a schlub. And it's
even worse to listen to him talk. I mean it's
just gobblycook.

Speaker 5 (21:13):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:14):
But for some people, you know who who are highly
you know, you know, Tony to Tally's theory is that
the people that got into next to him were all
highly hypnotizable and highly easily suggestible and got hypnotized, and

(21:36):
those are the people that got in. I don't know
about that. I think it's an interesting theory and puts
it to a certain percentage of the population are highly
suggestible and highly hypnot hypnotizable. I think it also has
to do with personality types though, you know, because Alison
mack here, she's a person at the end of it,

(21:59):
at a read of change, and I think she desperately
wants to be looked up to and admired and in
control of other people and other people's lives. And he
knew that she would be a cruel master.

Speaker 5 (22:16):
Yeah. I think her show was ending soon and she
needed something else to jump into. Maybe she was looking
for happiness too. I think maybe she's realized that her
youth is gone by and she hasn't really had much fun.

Speaker 3 (22:30):
Maybe good point. Good point. It's a lot of work,
a lot of work, a lot of long hours.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
Yeah, you sort of have to divorce yourself from the
thought that ends from the guarding if you feel that
our is necessary for that that's.

Speaker 6 (22:45):
Almost a self condemnation. Why is this emotion It's okay,
she comes, I should be.

Speaker 9 (23:10):
Because it's pointing at something I've never thought of that.

Speaker 7 (23:14):
And the part of me is kind of freaked out
about accepting this.

Speaker 6 (23:20):
I'm used to that self confimation. I'm comfortable with.

Speaker 9 (23:24):
That if I let go of that belief that it's
not the.

Speaker 7 (23:35):
Art that's giving me this feelings, me that's giving me
this feeling.

Speaker 6 (23:39):
And I have to.

Speaker 9 (23:41):
Trust that I will be capable of keeping myself.

Speaker 7 (23:47):
And I don't necessarily trust that right now, and so
that skip me because.

Speaker 6 (23:53):
I want that CEI.

Speaker 5 (23:57):
Can we talk about the crying all this? Like she
cries all the time. She starts crying when he describes art.
And there's that other interview they did at that roundtable
and from the fireplace where he's talking to her and
she says she's always crying. That was like another reason

(24:17):
why I didn't really see her as a monster. I'm
like her, Well, that cries every time Keith speaks. What
is that about?

Speaker 10 (24:24):
Well?

Speaker 3 (24:25):
In acting right? Like when you aren't you congratulated when
you cry when you bring up big emotions like this?
Do you think she was congratulated? For crying, and now
she thinks that big things come with big tears, big
breakthroughs come with big tears.

Speaker 5 (24:44):
I guess I don't know, it's weird.

Speaker 3 (24:46):
I mean, I think that's some of what's going on here,
is that she wants to have a big, you know,
life shifting experience with Keith Rianeri, with the smartest man
in the world. And if she cries and she's being filmed,
then something big has and to her right, But what
they're talking about isn't in any relation to She just
wants someone to like listen to her. And this is

(25:09):
what he did with This is how he got control
over all these women's minds. He looked in their eyes
and he listened, and he profiled them, and he summed
up all their strengths and their weaknesses and what they
would and the and which ones would do what for.
How he wanted to dominate. I mean, he wanted to

(25:29):
take over Mexico and then America. You know, plans for
this call.

Speaker 5 (25:35):
He was the smartest man in the world. I keep
forgetting that too, right.

Speaker 3 (25:42):
So she's just going to the smartest man and getting
big answers and how do you know you got big
answers when you cry. But there's times in this podcast
where she cries where I feel like she's fake crying.
She's doing an acting job, and I don't feel like
It's like when she starts talking about again, I'm going
back to it. But it was such a shocker, such
a jaw dropper for me. I thought, Alison Mack, listen

(26:06):
to yourself talk. How can my brother doesn't deserve to
hear me, hear my victim say terrible, call me a monster?
Will you acted like a monster, Alison Mack, What do
you expect them to say about you?

Speaker 5 (26:22):
Yes? And I think the average person and myself included,
you don't think about that at first, necessarily when you're
listening to these things, but you always have to remind
yourself she's an actress. Remember she's an actress, and she
can portray.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
It, the emotions it At her sentencing, you couldn't miss it.
At her sentencing. It was like watching a performance, like
a very very hollow, bad see list actress performance of
someone in Alison Mack in doing what her version of remorse,
I don't think she's And it's even worse when you

(26:56):
hear her talk in this podcast and yet that she
was a victim of hernery too. I get the duality
of it. But I really expected a lot, uh. I
really expected her to take some responsibility, even just from
taking just from going to school, I mean, just from

(27:18):
even going to school. I've expected her to take some
responsibility for her part, and not this minimizing stuff. And
let's talk about so. Yeah, you can see he's got her.
He's she's like a fish on a hook or a
like an animal in the crosshairs. He's got her. Let's
just watch the end of this how he lets it be.

(27:38):
He knows he's got her. She's in you can just
see it in his face. It's so scary this. But
at some point.

Speaker 6 (27:47):
I'll speak.

Speaker 4 (27:48):
I normally don't give people him the life. I mean,
to some degree, we did a little bit, really do

(28:15):
I hu?

Speaker 6 (28:16):
And I kid?

Speaker 11 (28:19):
Wow, good boy?

Speaker 3 (28:23):
I mean, what did she think of all this touching
and kissing and hugging going on in next am? And
and how how sexuality was always at the forefront of
all the tech and teachings, and you know, here she is.
So they start DOS, which is supposed to be a
women empowerment group, but it's the ultimate master is is

(28:46):
a man, is Rneri, right? And so Rneri's her master.
She's got six slaves under her, and every slave has
six slaves under them, right. So they constantly have to
recruit and they have to give collateral, and then they
have to up their collateral every month. So when I
say give collateral, what I mean is they have to

(29:10):
hand in naked pictures of themselves. Sometimes it's writing about
their family that would be devastating should it be released,
any kind of thing that would embarrass, devastate the person
giving it, should it be released. It's a kind of blackmail.
So what does Alison think? Why doesn't she ever question

(29:32):
why all these women the only problem only issues that
they're working through with Ranari, all these women are sexual
issues and relationship issues.

Speaker 5 (29:42):
Well, I gotta tell you, the main thing that bothered
me in this podcast was that she went the extra
mile for Keith and said, well, the only reason he
made doss is because his long term partner, Pam Kafritz
died and he was so distraught and he wanted more
control over his life. So it's like she's she's explaining
away which is absolutely absurd and ridiculous, and she's it's

(30:07):
like she's trying to draw sympathia for him and hit
her as well, but she's really minimizing and trying to
recast or whatever the whole story about Nexium and Keith
Vaniering and women around him and how he treated them.
And yeah, so I was I getting out. Oh, she

(30:30):
seemed to take right to it. And this is see,
this is what I don't get. It's like here on
video here and like in the other interview, you know,
the I'm talking about there at the roundtable, and she's
crying there as well, and she seems so like sensitive
and gullible and naive, you know. But then when she's
describing her activities in DOS, she's like, Yeah, I'm up

(30:51):
at five am and I'm taking a cold shower and
I'm doing you, I'm doing whatever she's doing. She's doing
her sit ups and she's doing her push ups, and
she's she's eating her plane yogurts and squashed.

Speaker 3 (31:04):
And the little dictator is inside her.

Speaker 5 (31:07):
Oh that weird.

Speaker 3 (31:09):
Can you tell the story about Lauren Salesman and Keith
Rnary at Pamkerfritz's funeral?

Speaker 7 (31:18):
Oh?

Speaker 5 (31:18):
Yeah, so this is on Frank Report and it's from
Lauren Salzman's testimony where it's said that Keith Vaniari put
on a performance at Pamcaffritz's funeral or memorial. Excuse me,
it turns out there's a lot of there's a lot
of evidence that Keith had something to do a lot
to do with Pamcaffrits dying the way she did. He

(31:39):
had a hand in it. And anyway, so he Keith
went on stage and like Allison, he wept on stage.
He how destroyed he acted. And then he as soon
as he turned backstage and out of view, he started
laughing at Lauren because she was going to get branded
that day, and he said, yeah, you're all my slaves.
Now you have my initials you ha ha ha ha.

(32:02):
So a total about face. Everything's an act with this man.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
But Alison Mack is still denying that her initials are
in there or Keith rinaires. She's still saying it's like
a wind over blah blah blah whatever they told these
women that was the seven chakras, right, She's still saying that.
But if you turn it to the side, it's kr.
If you look at it head on, you can see

(32:27):
her initials in it, and people say I'm wrong on this.
I see it. I think it's right. Then when he says,
I think it's an admission, when he says, well, they
wouldn't mind if it were Albert Einstein's initials. Why Albert Einstein,
because he's largely considered the smartest man in the world.

Speaker 5 (32:46):
Why branding is the question? Why not just a tattoo?

Speaker 3 (32:50):
You know, because he was so sadistic. That's what you get,
That's what I got. I remember getting up in court
going this man, I said, this guy is so satistic.
I turned to the right, and I just remember that
day so clearly. I turned to I was sitting next
to Tony in Meatalian court, and I said, Tony Natali
who dated Keith RINERI And as soon as he went

(33:14):
into be called vanguard, she was out of there. He
was like, no, thank you, no, thank you, this is
not for me, starting to get cold. And then they
hunted her and sued her into you know, near insanity,
you know, really called her like a you know, an
enemy of the cult, along with Rick Ross, and they

(33:34):
sued all their enemies. And what did Alison Mack think
of all this suing? That something never talked about in
any of this. The way that they tortured their critics,
You never.

Speaker 5 (33:44):
Heard any remors about that, Susan Dones, Kristin Keith, I mean,
anyone who left, they were went after them with law
fair and it wasn't even for money. It was just
to stop them from being some declaring bankruptcy after spending
all their money at Next.

Speaker 11 (34:01):
Right.

Speaker 3 (34:01):
They were just they were angry and they wanted to
They wanted to punish them for leaving, you know, and
and break them and break them right, and break them.
The point is not to win, because Susan Jones won
her court case, ultimately representing herself with some help. But
it's just unreal and Tony natally, you know, It's just

(34:26):
just what they did was so just so cruel. And
I mean nobody said to Alison act you didn't read
the Fords or you didn't think to do a little
research before you joined this group. Why are you blaming
all on Kristen Krook. Isn't it up to you to
find out what you're really joining? To have some skepticism now,

(34:48):
But isn't that a question to ask?

Speaker 5 (34:51):
Yeah, Alison Matt claimed that she started or she not started,
but she joined Jenness and had her mother join it,
and it's such a wonderful program to this day, helped
her marriage. But she Allison claims she joined Janess, a
woman's group, because she felt like she had ugly feelings
towards women. She wanted to work on that, you know,
and develop her friendships there. And at the same time,

(35:12):
she starts this podcast series off with, well, it's Kristin
Crook's fault. I went into Nexium. I would never you know,
wouldn't have happened if it weren't for her. So I
thought that was interesting.

Speaker 3 (35:23):
Yeah, I'll blame it on a woman. I'll throw throw
Kristin Krook, who's worked really hard to keep her name
out of this story. Kristin Crook, don't you think?

Speaker 5 (35:31):
Oh yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (35:33):
She's like, well, why didn't Kristin go down for this?
She's the one who brought me in. And that was
Alison max apology at her sentencing. I'm sorry that I
brought these women into Nexium, into Nexium to meet this
terrible man who did all this terrible stuff. But she
was paddling these is the way she talks about these punishments.
So the slaves also had to reward their master, and

(35:56):
she talks about bringing rnary chocolates and other things. But
her slaves also had to do nice things for her,
and that's never talked about, never talked about. And she
also paddled, So she talks about punishments like planks for
a minute. I think this is called minimization. Planks for
just one minute, and I can even I'm not in

(36:19):
the greatest shape of my life or anything, but I
could do a plank for a minute. A cold shower,
I think I could handle it for one minute. I
know it's a lot longer a cold shower when you're
actually in it for a minute, but I think I
could handle it for one minute. I mean that sounds
pretty small, right, standing in the cold for an hour?
How cold? And in what kind of dress? Not specified

(36:42):
in that punishment. But they every minute of the day
right you're texting, They also denied them sleep. They had
to respond, you know, they had to have red drills,
and they had to respond within sixty seconds, so that
when your master texted, you have to text them back
in less than sixty seconds. That she was paddling her slaves,
paddling them on their bear behinds hard, I mean it's

(37:08):
and I think it's also we should note that they
caught a rising tool used by doctor Danielle Roberts. She
was the one who did the branding fully clothed on
all these doss slaves. She no longer has her medical license.
I think that's something to note. She was anxiom devote

(37:31):
everybody else Roberts.

Speaker 5 (37:32):
They're all naked when they did it, and it was
all videotaped for Keith Vanieri.

Speaker 3 (37:38):
Right when we saw we saw some of those We
saw some some of those stills from those videotapes. I
don't know if we saw the actual videotape. I think
I believe I remember the stills, but I may have
seen some of the video, but I believe it was
stills from the video. In court, but one of the

(37:59):
one of Alison Max slaves who spoke beautifully, testified beautifully,
their parents just sobbing through her whole testimony. She had
to again had the same assignment to seduce Keith and

(38:23):
she was blindfold And then Cammy, who is part of
this Mexican family. So Cammy is Danny who was punished
for two years in an empty room for the crime
of having feelings towards another man that wasn't Keith Ranari.
Her younger sister, Cammy. Her whole family joined Mexium, and

(38:46):
Keith Ranari started praying on her when she was fourteen.
That was in two thousand and five. Alison Mack joins
in two thousand and six, and Barbara Bouchet talks about
watching of watching Keith Rnaire kiss Camy on the lips
on a tennis court or a I came. I thought

(39:08):
it was a tennis court. Correct me if I'm wronging.
It may have been a volleyball court, but I believe
it was a tennis court. So Barbara Bouchet saw that
saw Keith Ranary acting, you know, being sexually inappropriate with
a with a fourteen fifteen year old and didn't say anything.
What did Alice? And Maxie?

Speaker 5 (39:25):
That's never asked, right, right, and don't forget not that.
The weird thing about Keith RANII is he would tell
the woman that he slept with that they can never
sleep with anyone else or it would hurt him. He
would be physically hurt if they slept with anyone else.
So but he could sleep with whoever he wanted. He did.

Speaker 3 (39:49):
Yeah, and do you think that that. What do you
think it was about Laurence Salisman and Nancy Salzman? Do
you think that they knew all along that this was
a was a was a total sham or do you
think that they were believers and that when Nancy Salzman
pled out, it was a lot easier for Lauren to
wake up and realize the whole thing was a fraud.

(40:12):
Why Why is Lauren Salisman so far advanced along the
way and Alison Mack still seems to be devoted to
Keith Ryanery and Nexium and still thinks that most of
the teachings were good. And I mean the way there,
the way she's talking about it is it's like it's
just misunderstood. It may be illegal, but it really did

(40:32):
help people.

Speaker 5 (40:35):
I think Lauren in general, I mean Nancy, I don't know.
I've never heard Nancy speaking normally. I've seen her recordings
for classes and whatnot. She seemed to be really into it.
She's really very good at the NLP, very powerful presence.
And I know that Lauren said in a following episode
that she was a senior in college when she first

(40:57):
met Ranieri, when her mother got involved with it and everything,
so she was already college grad and pretty mature and
self assured when she ended up being involved with it.
So but she still got branded as well and everything else.
So like, I think she just had a better grasp
and that and a better more confidence in herself perhaps

(41:20):
than Alison Mac did. You can tell by the way
she speaks too, she's more confident sounding. I think your
microphone's off.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Yeah, it's just such an odd, odd, odd thing, you know,
odd odd thing. I've been just thinking about that moment
in the podcast where she says, Lauren Salzman's telling me
to get out, get out, get out. And here's here,

(41:56):
I'm picturing Alison Mac with an ankle bracelet at her home.
Her mother's telling her she's not crazy. She's clearly not eating.
Is that a thing for a mother to do, to
say you're not crazy and you're doing great when you
see your daughter's not emaciated and brainwashed? Is that what
I mean?

Speaker 12 (42:13):
I'm not a parent, but well you didn't go into
a little sat not the thing to do, thank you.
I mean, that's very enlightening, though she said, Well, she
was a child playing with her brother. She would tell
her brother what to do and if he didn't do it.
Then she would then she would say you better do it,
or the little dictator is.

Speaker 5 (42:33):
Going to come out. You know, I mean to take
that out because that she has a switch of personality
where she says, this is fire in her it goes
and she will get anything done. It will get done,
you know. And so I thought, WHOA, So she's got
a split personality thing going on, and I'm wondering that

(42:53):
that was possibly what the slaves saw that. You know,
we don't generally see in her behavior. We see the nice,
teary eyed Allison, whereas it seems to be another side
of her. It's very dark.

Speaker 3 (43:09):
Oh. That that definitely came across in court. That definitely
came across in court. The cruelty that she liked, That
she liked being as hard and cruel as possible. And
it wasn't all coming from Keith ran Aary. He picked.
He picked these people to do things for a reason.
So he knew what his devotes were capable of doing,

(43:29):
and he pushed them up to what they were capable
of doing. So he knew Lauren Salizman could keep could
keep Danny in a room and bring her food, you know,
can keep her confined that she would be brainwashed enough
to do that, to be the kind of guard for Danny.
But the really the really cruel, cruel stuff, a lot

(43:53):
of it went to Alison, Yeah, because she felt felt
that it made that she that she always seems like
she's trying to prove that she's better than other people,
stronger than other people.

Speaker 5 (44:07):
More badass, you know.

Speaker 3 (44:08):
When they talk about the branding, she goes, well, I
was just able to disassociate, which is something you learned
to do as and that's what acting is essentially, is disassociating,
is concentrating in this imaginary space, So you're disassociating from
reality into this imaginary space where you know your lines
are real and you're having a real interaction with someone

(44:31):
else that's scripted. And that she could disassociate from the
pain and move on. And she was shocked her that
her that her slaves could thought it was painful, and
she said, immediately.

Speaker 5 (44:45):
After getting branded, she turned around and immediately taught a class. Yeah,
she just didn't understand why the slaves couldn't do that,
you know, And.

Speaker 3 (44:56):
She's saying, I still I didn't hold anyone down, but
I was really forceful. I didn't make anyone do anything
by physically punish it, by physically holding them down and
doing it. But I was really like insistent, I didn't make.

Speaker 5 (45:14):
Anyone do anything.

Speaker 3 (45:15):
I didn't do Yeah, mm hmm. That wasation.

Speaker 5 (45:22):
Yeah, like it wasn't so bad. How was the branding?
She's like, I was okay, Like yeah, oh my god,
you gotta have some special kind of uh, you know,
personality to to just be okay with a branding.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Would you say that that's on their hip? Would you
call that she Alison Mack described it as on their hip?
Where would you describe that branding?

Speaker 5 (45:45):
I would describe it as right above the groin and
it's a very sensitive area.

Speaker 7 (45:49):
It's not.

Speaker 5 (45:52):
You know, and between the groin and the hip maybe
mm hmm. And it was painful. It looked rawbous of
them look very painful.

Speaker 3 (46:04):
Very much. And it's just odd that she's still like, well,
we thought we were you know, we were a bunch
of I mean, how are they saying that they're you know,
badasses for making it through it. It's just odd. I guess.
I guess if you can live through that kind of pain,

(46:26):
you're well.

Speaker 5 (46:27):
I think, like I said, I think the five hundred
calories a day must have affected their brains, because your
brain does get affected. Good point, that's right, Yeah, I
think that And that's was intentional of course by Keith, right,
all of them. So I think that had a lot
to do with it too, for them not thinking straight,

(46:47):
not having critical thinking skills, with a lot of things,
just going with an idea and be like Keith says,
let's do this. Yeah, it's a great idea, That's what
it seems.

Speaker 3 (46:59):
But what do you think where do you think this
coult would be? If? I mean, where do you where
do you think Alison Mack is going with this podcast?
What do you think the next step for her? I
mean we're going to talk about episode four and episode five,
but if this cult wasn't stopped, where do you think
it would have gone?

Speaker 5 (47:16):
It's terrifying because it was very powerful. I mean, they
had the police in their pockets. They had just like scientology,
a lot of scientology connections. In my opinion, it's too similar.
And they were with Keith, with Claire Broffman's money behind them.
They were supporting Hillary Clinton and politics, and seems to

(47:37):
be some political connections there. You know, so many other
like Epstein like connections going on. So I think it
would have gotten it wouldn't have stopped. It would have
kept going and gotten more and more powerful as the
years went on. I mean, you saw there were these
articles in Forbes magazine and other places just praising Keith

(47:59):
as some guru.

Speaker 3 (48:01):
Right, yeah, I'm not in Forbes. Forbes was critical in
two thousand and three, but oh okay, yeah that was
a critical article. But there was lots of different they
were working. I mean, Vanessa Gregardiadis, that piece in the
New York Times magazine was supposed to be the piece
that was gonna was gonna save them all from arrest. Unfortunately,

(48:27):
Keith got arrested before the piece came out, so it
ended up being you know, yeah, it ended up being
a little bit too late. But I showed some of
Vanessa Gregordiatis's interview and she's talking about how it's a
sorority of women, really tough women and people. All the

(48:50):
good it was causing. I mean, very much like the podcast.
Here's the take a listen to Nancy Salzman. Here's this
is I believe from Seduce. This is Nancy Salzman. Give
you a sense of how she talks and this is
her therapy session. Take a take a listen, Hold on

(49:12):
a second, I just hold on. Let me just this.
Did I just do this? Hold on? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (49:22):
Here we go.

Speaker 13 (49:23):
Hello?

Speaker 3 (49:24):
Are you good? How are you?

Speaker 4 (49:26):
I'm Nancy, Nancy. Pleasure to make shoot.

Speaker 13 (49:29):
I'm really happy that that I'm having an opportunity to
speak to my cat.

Speaker 6 (49:36):
Is I'm your mouse?

Speaker 3 (49:38):
Come here?

Speaker 4 (49:39):
You can't see yourself?

Speaker 3 (49:41):
Yes, you have to see him.

Speaker 4 (49:46):
Yes, he's really sweet. Heink he's trying to be here
with me during during this. Have you had any support?

Speaker 3 (49:55):
So that's a manipulative thing. You can't be too angry
or dislike or dis dressful as someone with a cat
or who loves the animal.

Speaker 5 (50:04):
Right, that is what a weird looking cat though? Yeah.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
Nancy Salzman was one of the last people to be
sentenced because she kept saying that she had to take
care of her ailing mother that she totally ignored during
her time in nexxand but she used her mother's illness
as a way to just delay and delay and delay
or sentencing. Nancy, I believe was the last person that
I remember sentencing going to It was all the way

(50:31):
at the end of twenty twenty one, so yeah, but
it's kind of manipulative, right, Oh, that's my cat mouse,
And so he's a special kind of person that names
their cat another animal, you know, like mouse. Yeah, like
that's my cat mouse, that's my cat dog. No nothing,

(50:55):
no professional support.

Speaker 4 (50:57):
What's your perception right now of what you went through?

Speaker 13 (51:02):
Keith was well in the beginning, he was kind, but
he got more and more and more controlling as time
went on. But I don't think I ever thought about leaving.
I just thought.

Speaker 3 (51:19):
He was difficult.

Speaker 4 (51:20):
I think it's important for people to.

Speaker 6 (51:22):
When they look back.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
Difficult was she getting? Did she have to keep down
to one hundred pounds? I was curious to hear that
alison max weight had to be true between one hundred
and five and one hundred and nine, because in court
we heard that he thought the ideal weight for a
woman was one hundred pounds and he wanted them around that.
I believe he wanted Danny around one hundred pounds.

Speaker 5 (51:46):
Well, what was more creepier is that he went after
the Nasty and then he went after Nasty's daughter, Lauren.

Speaker 3 (51:52):
I mean this man, yeah, yeah, I mean there really
wasn't a woman. I mean Sarah Edmondson came in as
a single woman, so I don't believe there was a
woman that was in there that wasn't preyed on by
Keith R. Nary.

Speaker 5 (52:10):
And he just told if you look at him and
you're like, why, how, what is going on here? What
kind of vodoo voodoo is he doing here? Some serious hypnosis?

Speaker 3 (52:20):
And LP he listens. Most men don't aren't interested and
don't listen. It's a very powerful thing a man who
looks in your eyes and listens. I mean, what he's
doing is profiling you and getting all your strengths and
weaknesses to use against you later. But at the time,

(52:41):
you're thinking, you're finding a guy who really is interested
in me, is really interested in when I have to
say he learned that trick very early on. But here's
Nancy saying, you know, I never thought of leaving. Well,
maybe because they found shoe boxes full of money. How
much money was it?

Speaker 7 (52:57):
Something like.

Speaker 3 (52:59):
What say millions?

Speaker 5 (53:02):
A million? Yeah, that was a lot, and all.

Speaker 3 (53:06):
Different currencies in the shoe boxes in her home. She
was making bank from this, that's that's yeah.

Speaker 7 (53:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (53:19):
And it was also never discussed, is Alison Mack had
to do? I think it was like one hundred thousand
something some large amount of community hours and twenty and
pay twenty thousand dollars? What happened to that? Did she
pay it? And what did she do for community service?

(53:40):
That was part of her sentence. I'm curious to hear
what she.

Speaker 4 (53:42):
Did destruct this experience.

Speaker 14 (53:46):
If you can think of like your life and three identities,
there's the identity before where there was something lacking in
your life. So then identity number two is you get
almost intoxic with this feeling like I found this great thing,
and you get the whole camaraderie in the community and

(54:06):
all of that.

Speaker 4 (54:07):
It feels really good. And then when that world crumbles like.

Speaker 5 (54:11):
It has for you, who am I now?

Speaker 9 (54:15):
But you can get there by.

Speaker 11 (54:17):
Looking at your first identity and try to get at
why were you vulnerable to these kinds of control tactics.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
I just get the feeling that Nancy Salzman's like, I
found just the right therapist, one that's not going to
ask any tough questions and it's gonna let me get
away with everything you know I'm gonna ask. It doesn't
know anything, and it's gonna look at me like a victim.
It looks like Keith Runari I'm looking at. The therapist
is now Alison Mack and Nancy Salzman is now Keith Ranaire.

(54:59):
It's like we're looking at the same volleyball thing. I've
got her. You know, they're meeting for the first time.
She's fallen for my cat trick, my cat mouse trick,
my cat and mouse trick. No, she's not gonna ask
me any questions, and she's gonna look at me like
I'm a victim of this cult. When I was the
perpetrator of this cult, one of them, I was the
number two.

Speaker 5 (55:18):
Oh ye remember when she was pretending that she cured
torret syndrome with that guy who was exposed for being
a fake I forget his name now. Well, yeah, she
was a major player in this and uh for Keith
Rani area with that, and I'll pay very powerful.

Speaker 3 (55:35):
Tammy says, great night to make a live chat. Hey,
thanks Terry, uh chat grubs, Liz RG amazing, glad you're
enjoying it, Tammy. Georgia says it was half a million.
Thank you, Georgia, you have a better memory than I do.

Speaker 5 (55:52):
Uh, thank you, Georgia.

Speaker 3 (55:53):
The shoe box, Yeah, thank you because a lot of
the very specific details have gone to the down the
memory slide.

Speaker 5 (56:02):
I remember, I'm saying, and Alison Mack is coming out
now and trying to rewrite history, and we've all forgotten
a lot of it.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Yeah, it's a perfect time. And I'm not so sure
they're not going to push for a pardon for someone
like Keith Ranari one hundred and twenty years and all
he did was have this really empowerment this female empowerment group.
Remember Joe Rogan at the time when this story broke
that saying that this wasn't just a cult of women

(56:31):
who were kinky and loved this kind of thing and
loved it. And then also Alex Jones was saying left
wing women love being abused, and this is this is
like Keith Rnary was done wrong. Both Joe Rogan and
Alex Jones were saying, Keith Rnari, this story, they were
all done wrong, and this is big Daddy government interfering

(56:51):
with these libertarian they're libertarian freedoms.

Speaker 5 (56:57):
Well, see this is where how they're also missed characterizing Nexium.
Because Keith Vanieri is potentially involved in up to five deaths,
five murders. You can read about it on Frank Report.
And there's also The Lost Women of Nexium. It's a
movie you can watch on Amazon and I think YouTube TV.
I mean, this man is a psychopath and he poisoned,

(57:22):
apparently poisoned his roommates Pam Kafritz, Barber Jeski and Karen Untour.
And also there was another woman before Nexium that he
gotten her will and then she died shortly after, but
she managed to change change her will right before she died,
so he didn't get anything. So there's a lot of

(57:43):
women around Keith Vanieri and Katz who died, and so
there's a lot more to this story, but you're never
hearing about it because all you hear about are sex
Slaveslino and all the lurid details of that. And like
you said, the argument that, well, you know, it's just
a bunch of liberal women who want to be abused.

(58:04):
You know, she's a little you know, gangbang or whatever
you call it BDSM. No, it's a lot more evil
than that.

Speaker 3 (58:14):
Yeah, And there's two very very suspicious deaths connected to
ne Nexium five I think or four. Kristen Snyder's death
is very suspicious. And then there's good yep, right, And
so Christian Snyder was a lesbian, uh married lesbian woman

(58:36):
who who wrote a note and.

Speaker 5 (58:40):
She thought she's a canoe.

Speaker 3 (58:42):
They put a canoe in the water and they never
found her body, which is very unusual. And they said
they I've heard things and that there are people who
know things. Karen Hunter writer is a very dark personality,
and it was shocked me that she didn't get charged

(59:03):
in this. She frightens me when I see her interviews.
I think she's completely lacking any kind of conscience or empathy. Yeah,
she's a scary one. I'm shocked that she didn't go down.
Let's watch Nancy Salzman just the rest of this clip,
and just to give you an idea of Nancy again,

(59:28):
film me eating dinner alone. I mean, what a vibe
for sympathy.

Speaker 4 (59:33):
It's going to take you some time to heal.

Speaker 6 (59:36):
This is the piece that I really hope that you
can articulate.

Speaker 8 (59:44):
How psychological manipulation is self perpetuating. You were used for
the things you were good at and for how he
could control you. And here's an important thing. The career
and the way the organization was.

Speaker 11 (01:00:02):
Built was clearly to take control over people's lives.

Speaker 3 (01:00:08):
Yeah, she built it, lady. This is what you see
in true crime all the time, that these psychopaths and
predators are helped along with the with our mental health
professionals help them along. They are either willing dupes or
their dark personalities themselves, and they're more than happy to
normalize and prop up these psychos exactly. I mean, Nancy

(01:00:34):
Salzman just catu ate the Canary. I mean, I'm having
a million cat analogies, you know, watching her. She's so happy,
she's getting away with all of this, with this woman
getting over i mean, just getting over duper's delight. Look
at that smile.

Speaker 14 (01:00:53):
You know.

Speaker 6 (01:00:55):
It was designed to control people. Now, that is not
what you build.

Speaker 4 (01:01:00):
I'm sure that is not what you believed today. Probably, well, I.

Speaker 3 (01:01:04):
Don't know that the well, I don't know that that's
so true she taught. I'm sure you were. I'm sure
you weren't trying to control anyone. How are you so sure? Lady?

Speaker 5 (01:01:14):
Obviously that lady has not seen the courses that Nancy,
all those videos about that Nancy taught. She taught the
whole course manipulating everyone.

Speaker 3 (01:01:24):
Right, right, I mean, you see these just making excuses
for these absolute you know, morally bankrupt, creepy, predatory people.
I mean, that's like that minimum minimum a minimum. I'm
being kind describing Nancy Salisman that way.

Speaker 13 (01:01:47):
As much as Keith did it, because you know, there
were seventeen thousand people unaffected and had good experiences with
the curriculum.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
People came to courses left and oh see they didn't starve.
For seventeen thousand people came and took courses and didn't
starve and brand themselves. So we did good. You hear
that whatever any endorsement, you don't know what. You don't
know what happened to all those people, what kind of
effect negative or positive of that? If they got out

(01:02:19):
with zero effect, they got out with their lives. They're lucky, right,
They're lucky. They're lucky if they didn't touch the sides.

Speaker 5 (01:02:29):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:30):
But we did take their money, good point, But we
did take their money and that went to hurting a
lot more other people. What A what A? This is
just very much like I'm really glad I showed this
clip because it's very much like Alison Mack still talking
about I want to keep all the good parts in
Nexium and just throw away the bad. See it's that easy.

(01:02:50):
I just compartmentalize everything, like I compartmentalized how I got
the brand. I put away my hurt, you know, the
pain of it, and the all the other feelings of
day of being degraded. And I just and I just
thought to myself, I'm a tough ass, badass woman to
take this branding. My slave should feel the same way.

(01:03:14):
And I'm gonna take next to him and take all
the good parts of it, and I'm gonna keep them,
and I'm gonna throw away all the bad parts. And
I'm just gonna move forward and up the mountain and me.

Speaker 5 (01:03:24):
And my neo Nazi husband are going to start a
new podcast.

Speaker 3 (01:03:29):
Oh yeah, we're gonna get into him next episode. We're
coming back for him. We're coming back for him. Like
there was none of that in that.

Speaker 6 (01:03:38):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:03:40):
It's one of the main tactics that is a hallmark
of psychological manipulation is to tear someone down but then
have the answer for how they can fix themselves.

Speaker 6 (01:03:57):
That was him, that's cooked in to the.

Speaker 4 (01:03:59):
True rings that you designed.

Speaker 3 (01:04:02):
In a way, it's and he I think I understood
that was hooked into the training that you designed. Okay,
And that's exactly get getting warm, getting warm in the lady.

Speaker 5 (01:04:14):
Yeah, that's exactly what Keith Vaniary did his first meeting
with Alison Mack. He insulted her about art. Maybe it's
all garbage and you don't know what you're doing.

Speaker 3 (01:04:23):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 5 (01:04:25):
But then you know, in my coursework you can learn
how to get some joy out of it.

Speaker 3 (01:04:29):
Oh and be really good. Because he wanted her to
be a stage actress, so you know, to be a
real actress, not a fake TV actress, a real actress.
And so you know when you see people ask me
when I went over, you know, I did a podcast
called Nexium from the Courtroom What the Vow Won't tell You,
and I played the entire tape of Alison Max singing.

(01:04:55):
People wanted to know why I played the whole thing,
you know, because it's so hard to look at. But
that that's what Alison Mack was trying to prove to
Keith rin Area that she could be raw and real
on stage and authentic and put out all the emotions there.
And guess what she cried too. She cried while she sang.
So it kind of proves our point about the crying.

(01:05:15):
If you go deep, if you really the tears come.
She's having big experiences, right, big dramatic experiences. So yeah, yeah,
the crier, the crier.

Speaker 1 (01:05:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:05:29):
But here's Nancy Salzman. You you you you designed these
programs for maximum having to have maximum control over people's lives.

Speaker 5 (01:05:39):
She manipulated. She she hypnotized an entire room of people.
I mean, I mean the psychiatrist or therapist is talking
to a master manipulator with NLP. It's just like telling
her about manipulation. It's kind of funny.

Speaker 3 (01:05:56):
Have you heard Tony Natalie tell the stories that she
went in with Nancy Salzman into I think it was
like some like some kind of like town meeting and
she and Nancy Salzman turns to Toni and says like,
I'm going to get everybody to raise their hands just
just with my words. And she did things like, you know,
we're going to rise, you know whatever, you know, however

(01:06:16):
you do it at LP rise. You know, we're gonna
be hands above the rest, you know, things like that.
Say they all raised their hand at the same time.
She did it without them even knowing it. So it's
it's some powerful stuff. It it seems like it's like
seems almost like a parlor trick, you know, but can

(01:06:38):
happen happened to me? I don't know. You know, all
I kind of all I kind of liking it too.

Speaker 7 (01:06:45):
Is like.

Speaker 3 (01:06:48):
You're is how she went back and forward in time,
and that it was very hypnotizing. So she's telling the story.
She goes back in time, and then she goes forward
into the present and then back in time into the present,
and as you're writing notes and trying to keep up
with it, you get into a hypnotic state. So like
everybody's driven and maybe missed an exit because they've been

(01:07:09):
thinking about something else. That's like that kind of state.
And it really tired out my brain and my whole
body for two days. It's odd, odd feeling. Ah, well,
thank you for your help.

Speaker 13 (01:07:26):
Bye.

Speaker 2 (01:07:33):
I find myself feeling resistant to some of the things
she thinks about. Yes, fat, I feel resistant. I hope
it's not true.

Speaker 3 (01:07:50):
She's not being she knows what's true, she knows what
it was all about.

Speaker 5 (01:07:55):
She is such she loved criminal. Yeah, look at her.
I hope it's not true.

Speaker 14 (01:08:00):
I mean.

Speaker 5 (01:08:03):
That is one cold hearted criminal right there.

Speaker 3 (01:08:06):
Yeah. In person, she's very comes across, very cold and
very star trek Ye. She looks like she could step
off the set of Star Trek Like. Her eyebrows are
very severe and kind of alien eyes. There's no warmth,
there's no warmth, and there's no it's just what she

(01:08:28):
can get over on another person.

Speaker 5 (01:08:30):
Yeah, she's got that smut.

Speaker 3 (01:08:33):
She's saying. Don't believe any of the any of the
very gent the things that she said in the most
gentle way possible and mostly attributed them to Keith. I
mean that was the easiest session in the world, and
she knows it. I mean, someone with real knowledge of
nexium could have gone to town on her. What will

(01:08:56):
you do with shoe boxes full of money in your house?
What were you doing bringing in women from Mexico and
turning them into indentured slaves? What happened to all the money?
What did you do with all the money? You you
were a criminal, You ran a criminal, You co ran
a criminal enterprise for decades. What happened?

Speaker 5 (01:09:18):
And you brought your daughter and a half right, right?

Speaker 3 (01:09:23):
Decade and a half a little bit?

Speaker 5 (01:09:24):
And then when she got her plea deal, she was
the first one. And it wasn't she screwing over everybody
else when she did that I remember it was. It
was like she was really betraying her daughter. But the
way she went about it like she just made a
deal without them, leaving them kind of in the line.

Speaker 3 (01:09:42):
Right before the superseding indictment, she got in and bled out,
which is a really key point that no one talks about.
And she went in before all the charges having to
do with children came down. She made a deal, probably
knowing because lawyers know, and they had, you know, well
really good lawyers. You know Claire Broffman spent This is

(01:10:04):
the other thing that they say in this podcast. They go,
it's a rumor that Claire Broffman may have spent millions. No,
it's not a rumor. It was said exactly what Claire
Broffman said, spent at her sentencing hearing, thirteen point eight
million dollars on everybody's lawyer, including mac and Co. Thirteen

(01:10:26):
point eight million dollars. That's exactly what is, including Keith Ranieri.

Speaker 5 (01:10:31):
That's why I'm saying this calls on and on if
they hadn't been arrested, Thank god they were.

Speaker 3 (01:10:37):
They wanted to take over Mexico and probably could have.
They were going to put in one of their own
running Mexico.

Speaker 5 (01:10:48):
Yeah, they were well on their way. They had very
powerful Mexican people there giving their daughters to him.

Speaker 6 (01:10:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:10:55):
Yeah, do you want to finish this up and we'll
maybe close with it. I think I have a few
more points that we can close it close up.

Speaker 10 (01:11:03):
Yeah, we will really break my heart first, because yes,
if the thing that I thought that I loved the
most and I thought did the most good is really
damaging people, I think.

Speaker 3 (01:11:21):
That would be very hard. Two, I don't know how.

Speaker 10 (01:11:27):
I don't know how I could.

Speaker 3 (01:11:28):
Come back from that. Oh, come on, you didn't wake
up with that, with the lawsuit, with the testimony in court.
I mean, she wasn't in court for Keith ran AI's trial,
but she didn't read the papers for this testimony. She
didn't hear the other victim impact statements. She didn't read
all the hurt that next same cause she was she's

(01:11:49):
confused about how much destruction lay in her rate. She
was in Albania at the time. She didn't see women,
including her own daughter, getting thinner and thinner and frailer
and psycho logically weaker every day. Come on, this is fiction.
This is called rewriting history, and this is what I

(01:12:09):
think Alison Mack is attempting to do with her podcast.
So she'll say, like what I did was illegal, She'll
say I'm not innocent, like what I did was illegal.
She gets that it's what she did was illegal, But
I don't think she thinks it was wrong or bad. Still.
I still think she thinks that there there was mega

(01:12:30):
good that came out of all of her punishments.

Speaker 5 (01:12:33):
Oh yeah, yeah, she felt that everything she asked her
slaves to do, she did herself. It's not her fault
that they were so incompetent that they couldn't separate their mind.
And you know, they got so much good from it.
It was so good, it was so empowering. And Keith,
you know, Keith only it only had it only happened

(01:12:54):
because Keith was so distraught over Pam's death, not the
other four people.

Speaker 3 (01:12:59):
You know, right, there's no dis He loved causing destruction.
He loved destroying people and made him feel powerful and
made probably made Nancy Salizman feel powerful and Alison Mack
feel powerful. To bring people to their literal knees. I mean,
he had them drinking out of puddles, running into a
tree with no hesitation.

Speaker 5 (01:13:21):
He made Claire wear men's underwear one time, remember that.

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
Yeah, I mean, and he especially liked to try to
convert lesbians too. That was as their thing. So there
was no woman who was like immune to being. Every
woman had to I mean, they didn't notice that every
woman had to sleep with Keith in this call. It
was a harem for Keith. Let's be honest. And you

(01:13:50):
gave your daughter daughters, right, didn't she give both of them?

Speaker 5 (01:13:54):
Tim definitely one. I don't know the other one. I
think the other one was somewhat involved, But I don't
know if she slept with keither not I thought.

Speaker 3 (01:14:02):
So, but probably my memory, that's my memory of it.
I can be corrected. Okay, Oh gosh, I went, I
somehow skipped all the way to the back here. Okay,
hold on.

Speaker 5 (01:14:18):
Those such faked tears.

Speaker 3 (01:14:28):
This is all this stuff where the documentary's filmed. People
at Home is all such a manipulation too. You know,
here they are alone at home. What a lonely life
they lead. And that's another thing with Alison Mack is
like we're supposed to feel badly that a few paparazzi
snapped her picture, granted her sentencing hearing was held in

(01:14:48):
a bigger room than then someone like Laurence Salsman, but
neither of them had an overflow room or needed an
overflow room. Wasn't a mad house. Alison Mack, they say,
they say she's pray today, she's going to her sentencing
and she's pray, pray for the Really wasn't like that.

(01:15:08):
She passed, She had her picture taken by the photos
and she went in, she pled out. She got three years.
I mean, she had said her gave her statement to
the court, she listened to two victim impact statements. The
judge said what he had to say, and it was
over fairly quickly, and she got three years and she
was allowed. And she wasn't brought in right away like

(01:15:30):
Claire Brofman was. Claire Brofman had to surrender right away.
Alison Mack was given plenty of time to go home
and just bring herself to prison in a couple months.
Claire Bromfan wasn't given any of those kind of things,

(01:15:51):
you know. So, I mean this idea that she was
treated so badly or she was so singled out is
really wrong. I mean, she was given way better treatment
than she gave any of her victims.

Speaker 5 (01:16:07):
What do you make of the fact that they called
her Piper when she went to jail, and she coincidentally
hadn't a rehearsal for that job the Orange is the
New Black Show.

Speaker 3 (01:16:19):
She would have been good in that role, I thought,
I mean, maybe I'm not. I'm not a crazy fan
of that show. I watched some of it. I watched
the first couple of seasons of it, I think. Then
I then it went into then it got really wild
and out there, and I felt like they were shoving
politics down my throat that I didn't care for. That's

(01:16:42):
my memory of it. Yeah, that's my memory of it.

Speaker 5 (01:16:45):
But I felt though we were trying to say that
poor Allison, she was just like Piper, you know, she
was lost and confused.

Speaker 3 (01:16:52):
There. It sounded like she had a great time when
you were hearing Alison Nax say she went on the
yard at six am morning and no one was on
the yard, and she picked flowers and brought them back
to her cell. I didn't get it, Oh sorry, And
that she's thinking that she has to get she's getting
out in a couple of months, and that she's worried

(01:17:14):
about getting out into the real world. It's not like
I can't wait to get out at a prison. Hallelujah.
This is a hell hole. She's like, oh no, the
real world.

Speaker 5 (01:17:24):
This is great.

Speaker 10 (01:17:25):
Great.

Speaker 3 (01:17:25):
I've eaten cheesecake and had a good time.

Speaker 5 (01:17:27):
She was. She went on the way to the jail.
When she was first arrested, she said she fell asleep
in the paddy wagon. She said, yeah, I just fell asleep.
My body gave out. I'm like, who is there, right?
Mine could fall asleep in the back of when you're
just getting arrested, just being taken downtown and she falls
asleep in the van.

Speaker 3 (01:17:48):
Well, I think she was so weak by then. I mean,
that's where when she was eating a five hundred calorie
day a diet, that's yeah. Uh yeah. She did look
very ill. So did Laurence Salisman, so Claire Bromman. They
all looked very sick, especially Alison Mack.

Speaker 14 (01:18:03):
Though.

Speaker 3 (01:18:03):
Was a special color of yellow and green that I've
never seen before. And I wondered, you know, if they
were talking about other people, you know, I don't know
how many people talked about her pallor I certainly did
in all of my reporting talked about Alison Mack's strange
pallor if her saying that she ate squash and she

(01:18:24):
was orange, if that was an answer to why her
skin was so I mean, she really looks sick. If
I were her mother, I would have been rushing her
into a hospital, not telling her she's not crazy and
just relax here and you're not crazy. You did good
things with keith Rine airy and just cool your heels.

Speaker 5 (01:18:41):
I don't know, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, her mother was
nowhere to be found.

Speaker 3 (01:18:45):
Yeah, and you know, next time we talked, maybe we
can talk a little bit about I can show some
clips of Catherine Oxenburg because she was really advocating against
Nexium and sending messages publicly for her daughter, India Oxenburgh.
And I'm curious why Alison Maximom never did that or

(01:19:08):
she said Catherine really fought for her child. I did it.
But what did you think when Catherine Oxenburg was going
up against your daughter's cult? Was she did you consider
her an enemy of your daughter? What did you know?
What was what were your thoughts? Curious that that'd be
something for next time, I think.

Speaker 5 (01:19:25):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, Yeah, Katherine Oxenburg helped. She's the main
reason this cult went down. One of the main reasons.
So yeah, yeah, to talk about her.

Speaker 3 (01:19:36):
Yeah, so that's so. That's so. This was episode three.
It was all had to do with DOS and it
was a sort of rewritten I mean, if you would
think DOS was all just about cold showers and doing
one minute planks and maybe standing out in the cold
in a sweater in an undefined outfit best punishment, But

(01:19:58):
there was severe paddling. Brand They do describe the branding,
but it's always seems to be it's always Alison as
the victim, not you know, Alison holding the paddle, Alison demanding.
There's always sort of a distance, and it'd be curious.

(01:20:21):
I'm curious to see what you think of episode four
and we'll go on episode four and five. It's really
fun to talk to you about all this.

Speaker 5 (01:20:30):
Yeah, it's been great, Yes, absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:20:34):
You know what it reminded me of Alison. Alison Max's
time in prison is Amanda Knox's time in prison. There's
a lot of powerful enjoyed prison.

Speaker 5 (01:20:45):
There's a lot of parallels here. I keep thinking, wow,
this is exactly what Menonox did. Yeah, yeah, the same
pr plays and everything, the behavior. Yes, and wanting to
go on speaking tour, I just have a suspicion to her.
Her husband's already on speaking tour, so that could be
coming up next. That's exactly what a met inox to.

Speaker 3 (01:21:06):
Yeah, I'm gonna do a little bit more digging into
it because I fell for his book. You know, I
didn't even think to think that maybe, you know, maybe
maybe it's not you know, maybe it's not one hundred
percent true. Maybe it is a mythologized view of him.
I know he really was a neo Nazi because the
tapes exist of him on talk shows, et cetera. You know, Well,

(01:21:30):
it's just the fact that tattoo on his neck that
he got taken off. Yeah, and then he sort of
has now gone into anti police work, and he's saying
with zero proof. He's saying that there's so many neo
Nazis on our police force. Where's your proof of the
any of this? He says, we all know the tattoos

(01:21:51):
that they have. Where are these tattoos? And they all
and some of these guys have them, not all of them,
but some of these guys have Where is your proof.
I'm not saying there might not be one or two
neo Nazi police officers, but where's your proof that this
is a major problem in America? Now, Well, didn't congressional
I'm open minded. I'm open minded. I'm open minded. Prove

(01:22:14):
me wrong. You know he was pushing skeptical.

Speaker 5 (01:22:19):
Yeah, he's so.

Speaker 3 (01:22:22):
Yeah, So I'm just a little skeptical when you come
out saying, well, we all know, we all know what
to look for, and we're seeing these tattoos and marks
and blah blah blah. You know what exactly? I like specific,
like when people talk in specifics and who are you
seeing them on and what you know? So that yeah,
we'll talk about him. Uh, that's a curious connection, very

(01:22:45):
curious connection.

Speaker 5 (01:22:48):
I find that Allison comes out now after marrying him
like he kind of pushed her this into this kind
of seems or strongly influenced her, is what I'm the
vibe I'm getting.

Speaker 3 (01:23:01):
Yeah, but very little discussion of his of his very
public switch to Judaism and conservative Judaism. It looks like
just by when I hear him talk and and does
did Alison have to convert to Judaism too? She had
clearly had a Jewish wedding. You can see she had

(01:23:23):
a Jewish wedding. Yeah, rabbi there, but did she take classes?
Did she did she take to her classes? I'm just curious.
There's not any discussion. So spoiler alert, there's no discussion
of that in here. It's mostly they talk about his
anti hate work and his neo Nazi work, and they

(01:23:44):
don't talk much about his Judaism, which is really the
subject of all his most recent interviews. So yeah, he's
constantly reinventing himself. So he goes from anti hate, neo
Nazi stuff, to recovery stuff, to you know, his work
in AA. That's where I last left off with him.

(01:24:04):
Then now he's going into Now he's going into his
anti police work. Actually, no, I left off of his
anti police work. That's what really turned me off when
he started talking about you know, I think, you know,
we don't need any more police hatred in this country.

Speaker 5 (01:24:20):
It's you know, the Mexicle being being Alison max slave.

Speaker 3 (01:24:27):
Right, and he says, and he says spoiler alert, but
he says, you know, Allison wasn't involved in anything deviant.
This wasn't like an Epstein thing. I'm like, what did
you hear? Oh, yes it was. He just watched the
vow and thinks he's got the full story. This is
what just worries me about these characters, Like, have they

(01:24:47):
not learned to research anything? Have they not learned to
look at both sides of an issue before making up
their mind? Have they not learned to question ideologies on
both the left and the right. Have they not learned
that yet in life? I mean, it's just a basic
thing in life to look at both sides of everything.
There's so much propaganda on both sides. I just thought

(01:25:12):
it was very curious that they seem to adopt these
ideologies with little skepticism after what they've been through. M
anything that we missed, anything else you want to end with?

Speaker 5 (01:25:28):
No, I man, this is great.

Speaker 3 (01:25:29):
Thank you again.

Speaker 5 (01:25:30):
This is a lot of fun.

Speaker 3 (01:25:33):
Yeah, let's let me know when you're free next and
we'll hit episode four, right, Okay, sure, yeah, okay, all right,
Thanks so much for listening. Guys. Please support the podcast.
Links in the description of this episode buy me a coffee.
Thank you Tammy for buying me a coffee. Venmo great
way to support the channel. Also Patreon get access to

(01:25:56):
the content you won't get anywhere else. Links in the discription.
Please hit the thumbs up on your way out, guys,
Thanks so much for listening. I'll see you tomorrow at six.
Have a great night, everybody. Thank you Liz True Crime Podcast.
I'll put the link in this episode's description. Thanks so much, everybody,

(01:26:25):
My check.

Speaker 1 (01:26:26):
Roberta strides through the static case True Crime Gotham, where
the shadows later placed, frauds to fold when a spotlight beams,
fact focus, queen busting, propaganda schemes, glass shadow lies that
goes through the streets, standing for victims, giving voice their beats,
and yc post truth, sharpest night prefer to explosive. She's

(01:26:46):
the antsy frowd light Partesta, dissecting Satan's defense, twisted innocence, claims,
breaking pre sense, Shotam's truth seekert cuts clean with the

(01:27:07):
blade facts in the forefront, No justice gets swaying cold
facts drip heavy real salt, gun furls, cracking cases open
like oysters with pearls, innocence gimmicks, crumpled the dust in
the wind for victims, her creed justice till the end,

(01:27:33):
headphones blazing, she.

Speaker 6 (01:27:35):
Drops heavy artillery.

Speaker 1 (01:27:37):
Now we're just twisted meat, blunt objects, civility. Roberta god
receipts that unraveled deploy exposing the lies, these frauds that
deployed Glass shot his lies.

Speaker 12 (01:27:47):
That goes through the streets, standing for victims.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
Given voice, stand meats and y s pulse true sharpness.
Night Roberta exposes She's the anti fraud light

Speaker 4 (01:28:13):
Coming

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