November 13, 2025 • 65 mins
What do we talk about when talk about empathy & remorse in regards to Mack’s role as DOS master and recruiter in NXIVM? How is remorse expressed in Allison Mack’s new podcast about her time in and life after Keith Raniere’s destructive cult? Where’s Mack’s empathy for those that she victimized? What does the podcast tell us about Mack’s view of her role in NXIVM. What does the future hold for Mack?
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Beth, Shelley Safford, Carol Mumumeci, Therese Tunks, JC, Lizzy D, Elizabeth Drake, Texas Mimi, Barb, Deborah Shults, Debra Ratliff, Stephanie Lamberson, Maryellen Sudol, Mona, Karen Pacini, Jen Buell, Marie Horton, ER, Rosie Grace, B. Rabbit, Sally Merrick, Amanda D, Mary B, Mrs Jones, Amy Gill, Eileen, Wesley Loves Octoberfest, Erin (Kitties1993), Anna Quint, Cici Guteriez, Sandra Loves GatsbyHannna, Christy, Jen Buell, Elle Solari, Carol Cardella, Jennifer Harmon, DoxieMama65, Carol Holderman, Joan Mahon, Marcie Denton, Rosanne Aponte, Johnny Jay, Jude Barnes, JenTheRN, Victoria Devenish, Jeri Falk, Kimberly Lovelace, Penni Miller, Jil, Janet Gardner, Jayne Wallace (JaynesWhirled), Pat Brooks, Jennifer Klearman, Judy Brown, Linda Lazzaro, Suzanne Kniffin, Susan Hicks, Jeff Meadors, D Samlam, Pat Brooks, Cythnia, Bonnie Schoeneman-Dilley, Diane Larsen, Mary, Kimberly Philipson, Cat Stewart, Cindy Pochesci, Kevin Crecy, Renee Chavez, Melba Pourteau, Julie K Thomas, Mia Wallace, Stark Stuff, Kayce Taylor, Alice, Dean, GiGi5, Jennifer Crum, Dana Natale, Bewildered Beauty, Pepper, Joan Chakonas, Blythe, Pat Dell, Lorraine Reid, T.B., Melissa, Victoria Gray Bross, Toni Woodland, Danbrit, Kenny Haines and Toni Natalie.
Get access to exclusive content & support the podcast by a Patron today! https://patreon.com/robertaglasstruecrimereport
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Thank you Patrons!
Beth, Shelley Safford, Carol Mumumeci, Therese Tunks, JC, Lizzy D, Elizabeth Drake, Texas Mimi, Barb, Deborah Shults, Debra Ratliff, Stephanie Lamberson, Maryellen Sudol, Mona, Karen Pacini, Jen Buell, Marie Horton, ER, Rosie Grace, B. Rabbit, Sally Merrick, Amanda D, Mary B, Mrs Jones, Amy Gill, Eileen, Wesley Loves Octoberfest, Erin (Kitties1993), Anna Quint, Cici Guteriez, Sandra Loves GatsbyHannna, Christy, Jen Buell, Elle Solari, Carol Cardella, Jennifer Harmon, DoxieMama65, Carol Holderman, Joan Mahon, Marcie Denton, Rosanne Aponte, Johnny Jay, Jude Barnes, JenTheRN, Victoria Devenish, Jeri Falk, Kimberly Lovelace, Penni Miller, Jil, Janet Gardner, Jayne Wallace (JaynesWhirled), Pat Brooks, Jennifer Klearman, Judy Brown, Linda Lazzaro, Suzanne Kniffin, Susan Hicks, Jeff Meadors, D Samlam, Pat Brooks, Cythnia, Bonnie Schoeneman-Dilley, Diane Larsen, Mary, Kimberly Philipson, Cat Stewart, Cindy Pochesci, Kevin Crecy, Renee Chavez, Melba Pourteau, Julie K Thomas, Mia Wallace, Stark Stuff, Kayce Taylor, Alice, Dean, GiGi5, Jennifer Crum, Dana Natale, Bewildered Beauty, Pepper, Joan Chakonas, Blythe, Pat Dell, Lorraine Reid, T.B., Melissa, Victoria Gray Bross, Toni Woodland, Danbrit, Kenny Haines and Toni Natalie.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
I'm reverta glass and you're listening to my true crime report. Today,
i'd like to talk a little bit more about Alison
Mack and her life after Nexium podcast, which is being
produced by the CBC, and it's a long, long, multi
(00:30):
parter and it's the first that we've really heard from
Alison Mack since her sentencing hearing. She's gotten married, she's
been in classes. She wants to now become a social worker,
so she's taking advanced degree classes to become a social worker.
(00:55):
Hello Blue River, Hello Maestro, thanks to everybody. Hello Melanie.
So I wanted to just finish up about it talking
about it, and I think it's it's Alison Mack has
(01:17):
been a really uncomfortable figure for those of us like
myself who covered Nexium from the courtroom, from the early
hearings on when Alison mac Laurence Salsman. Let me see
if I can get up the show, you guys, get
up the whole list of defendants so you can see
(01:42):
Kathy Russell, Claire Bromfman, Nancy Salzman all arrived in court
and they attended these hearings. The vibe was from them
that they had no idea or didn't care how serious
the charges were again them, and you can hear Alison
Mack in the podcast talking about how she was sure
(02:04):
that it would be worked out at any minute, that
all these that this was just some kind of misunderstanding
and she was sure. She talks about the conversations with
her lawyers. She was sure that everything that she did
in nexium was legal, and they assured her that it
wasn't legal. And those are some of the most fascinating parts, compelling, certainly,
(02:29):
parts of this podcast where she's talking about her lawyers
being like, yeah, no, that's that's illegal. She's like, well,
I just told them to seduce Keith and then Keith
took naked pictures of them and you know, in very
compromising positions. They're like, uh yeah, that collateral. I mean,
(02:52):
the collateral part was like such a key part of
the coersion. So the idea that they would release something
that would be un flattering, damaging to you or your
family should you not go through with your commitments to
your master and dos was such a key part of
(03:14):
the coersion and trafficking and everything having to do with
Nexium and the Cold has to do with levels of
power of power and control over other people. Ultimately, Keith
Rnari had had the most power. But the way Nexium worked,
(03:35):
as far as you as teaching the curriculum, you went
up and you had different sashes. So the higher up
you gotten Nexium, the different you moved up in the
you got a different color sash. And Alison Mack never
went as far as someone like Mark Vicente as far
as this as in sashes, but she had incredible influence
(04:00):
due to her role in as as her role basically
as her public persona as an actress, and her former
role in Smallville that made her a semi maybe a
famous person, a D deep C list B list famous person.
(04:22):
I don't know, depending on how you're gonna how you're
gonna look at it. I mean, certainly Smallville was a
successful TV show and had a long run.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
But so.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
This is here's a look at the Naxian defendants. Keith Narry,
of course, I'm forgetting the most. And they'd come in
and they'd sort of smile and giggle and talk to
each other, and there was a feeling looking at Alison
max lawyers like you got a sense looking at her
(05:01):
lawyers like that they didn't know what to do with her. Like,
what are we going to do? We have such a
severely brainwashed client. What are we going to do with
this client? How are we going to how are we
going to defend this client? And I think that's some
of the more compelling parts of this podcast, where Alison
(05:21):
Mack talks about our profit, where she's like, just tell
me what to say. I don't know what to say.
She's still so convinced that what she did was good
or had good effects. And I want to talk about
in this podcast what we talk about when we talk
about remorse, or what we expect to hear when we're
(05:43):
when we're hearing from someone like Alison Mack, who was
both a victim and a victimizer in this cult. It's
a very uncomfortable duality that she plays in this story.
So she was both worked on and grew owned by
Keith RNERI to take on this position as dos slave master,
(06:05):
especially after Pam Kafritz died, who was really the key
recruiter and how she fulfilled the role and how she
looked at her victims now. And I think that's what's
really missing from this podcast, is any acknowledgment of the
(06:29):
pain that she caused her victims. So so much of
this podcast is Alison Mack explaining as to why she
was susceptible to Nexium. So she brings up her past
as an actress, how she was a child actress, which
I think is flat out child abuse, and how she
(06:50):
was beholden to these male directors and punished for being
to She talks about being as a young teenager, I
think twelve or thirteen for being overtly sexual or flirting
with a male director and how that set her up.
(07:13):
I think what she's saying is that set her up
to be a victim of Breneri. To be as an actor,
you're a compliant, you say the lines, you do the things.
And Alison Mack was known as an actor or an actress,
whatever words you want to use, who would work very
(07:34):
professionally and go the extra mile to please the director.
And so that kind of she's saying that that held
over into Nexium, where she would go the extra mile
to please Keith Rinari, who was the head of the cult.
But it also she talks about a relationship she had
(07:56):
with a boyfriend that was very destructive and unhealthy and
that he would hurt himself and say, look what you
made me do and use those kind of manipulation tactics.
And so she's right from this unhealthy relationship straight into Nexium.
But when it comes to real reflection on how she
(08:19):
treated other women and why she treated why she felt
it was okay, it's you always come up to the
same roadblock with Alison act like I thought it would
help them, I thought it was doing good. But and
if I was turned off by what I was seeing,
either with the messages that I saw Keith Ranari writing
(08:39):
other women or any of the other abuse of things
that I saw at Nexium, I always kind of wrote
it off in my head that that Keith Ranari would
somehow make it right, that his intentions were good, that
he was the most ethical person. And you have to
(09:00):
member that this is a cult, that the curriculum was,
that there were no victims. I almost called this episode
like no victims, but lots of victims left. And it
seems like in this podcast she went to her sentencing
thinking that she was going to hoping that she would
(09:22):
get no prison time because she had tried to help
the prosecution out. She sounds like she wasn't of much help,
that she was way too still too brainwashed to help
be of any or much help, but she tried. Whereas
(09:42):
Nancy Salzman, who's the bottom middle here, I mean Nancy
Salzman's daughter, excuse me, Lauren Salsman who's the bottom middle here,
testified and was one of the strongest witnesses for the
prosecution in the case against Keith Ryniering. So everyone, so
we're looking at all these This is another really important
thing that this podcast does, which is plays with time.
(10:04):
So we're looking at all the defendants here. Kathy Russell,
who was the bookkeeper on the top left. Keith Rinai
in the middle, who is the cult leader, said he
had a two hundred and forty IQ which is actually
an IQ test that one of his child victims had
taken take home test. Nancy Salzman on the top right,
(10:25):
who is the number two in Nexium, who taught most
of the curriculum or a lot of the curriculum, is
the second most established neural linguistic programmer in the world.
So neural linguistic programming is a kind of painting portraits
with words or hypnosis using words. And the bottom left
(10:50):
is Alison Mack, middle is Laurence Salisman, and the right
is so Lauren Salzman is Nancy Salzman's daughter, and Claire
Brafman on the bottom the Seagram's heiress, So with her sister,
her sister fled the country when it looked like charges
were coming down her sister Sarah and has never faced
(11:14):
any charges for her part in nexium. So what are
we looking for when we're looking for remorse is some
acknowledgment of the of the of your part in the
story and your responsibility in the story. And Alison Mack
(11:35):
has no problem saying that she did the thing, and
she did what she was accused of and it was illegal.
But it's always with the idea that well, the punishments
that I gave out I did too, so like I
did to myself too, So I took cold showers. I
was in this predatory relationship with Ranieri. I also was
(12:02):
branded with a cauterizing tool and with no on my hip,
you know, in my groin area, like all of the
dos slaves were, And that because I experienced that pain
that I guess I'm just that my responsibility. The person
(12:27):
really responsible is Keith Rnari, which is partially true. But
where is Alison max part in this? And that really
never gets answered, it gets explained away, and this is
something that we saw when we looked at her sentencing,
and so they're hoping she goes into her sentencing hoping
that she's going to get what eventually Lauren Salzman, who
(12:53):
sentence after her, gets, which is like no prison time.
And of course that's another thing that they mess. They
play with time. They basically move the time of everything
so that they have in this podcast, they have Alison
Mac deciding whether she's going to plead out as Keith
Ranari's trial is going on, but everyone pled out before
(13:14):
Keith Ranari's trial, everyone but Keith Ranary led out, meaning
pled guilty, leaving only Keith Ranary to face trial. And
the sentencing happened in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one after
the pandemic, so the sentencing was vastly delayed because of
(13:38):
the pandemic. So Alison mac sentencing happened before Lauren Salzman sentencing,
and in the podcast, they have Alison Mack hoping that
she'll get no prison time like Lauren, but Lauren hadn't
been sentenced at that point, so she had hoped that
she got no prison time just for being helping the
(14:02):
government and pleading guilty and for being both a victim
and a perpetrator in the story. And Judge Garafis, who
they describe him in this as coming out of Central
casting because he had a New York accent. I would say,
Judge Garafus is like no judge I've ever seen. He
(14:24):
was the most psychologically astute, intuitive judge. There's one moment
at Claire Brofman sentencing that I'll never forget where Claire
Broffman was giving her speech and she started to revictimize
her victim with nexium techniques and Judge Garifis like picked
(14:45):
up on it immediately and stopped her and said, this
judge isn't blind. I mean I almost get goosebumps thinking
about it now. So I don't think there's anything like
from Central. I mean maybe because he had a New
York accent. Is that what they're saying means the most
of If I would call him, I would call him
(15:05):
a kind of clastic, intuitive, most amazing judge for this case,
and the perfect judge for this case. And I think
that the sentences that he gave I would have probably
given Alison Mack a longer sentence Besides for Alison Mack,
I thought was pretty fair, and I agreed with all
(15:27):
of it except for Mac. I thought Alison Mack should
have for her part, which was she tortured these women,
so I thought she should have done more time with
very little remorse. So when we go to her sentencing,
here's what Alison Mack said at her sentencing. She said,
(15:51):
I'm sorry to those of you that I brought into Nexiom.
I am sorry I ever exposed you to the nefarious
and emotionally abusive schemes of a twisted man. So it's
sort of like it's Keith Naire, I'm sorry I brought
you to this horrible person. But again, again it's a
kind of blind spot with her. What was your part?
(16:15):
And she expresses a great deal of rage and jealousy
towards women and a frustration that she can't control women
as well as she can control men, especially using her sexuality.
But she talks about punishments that she did to herself
and how hard she was on herself and starving herself
and all that was very obvious in court that the
(16:38):
women were not well and were very ill and very brainwashed.
But I think she still has a long ways to go.
To get better and if anything, that this podcast is
very premature, because you know, there's something that comes along
(17:02):
with being an actor or an actress or I guess
I'll just use the word actress. Stick with that. You
get to actress and having this kind of power and
ability to manipulate people and manipulate people with your put
on emotions. And Alison mack was indeed like the star
of her family, and her mother talks about being terribly
(17:27):
afraid of her own daughter, of pushing her own daughter
away to the point when they put down millions of
I think it was like some incredible amount of money
bond money for her or her bail that they said,
we want you to be loyal to us and not Renery.
They were worried that she would take the bail money
(17:49):
and be loyal to Renery. So that's when Alison mac
moved home and her mother was assuring her that she
wasn't crazy. Was I'm during listening to it, was that
the best thing to do maybe tell her, you know.
(18:10):
And it's unclear exactly what kind of help Alison mackot
and when she got it, because through many many years
through her sentencing, it doesn't seem like and to now
she's still talking about all the good parts of nexium.
So it's a little bit like talking about something that's
(18:32):
entirely destructive that I don't think anybody that got into
nexium came out better than then when they went in.
There was so much destruction caused by this cult that
I think that the good parts, whatever good you got,
are really negated by the amount of destruction that it caused.
(18:56):
But so that's Alison Max sentens, and that's in a
broad contrast to someone like Lauren Salsman sentencing. And let's
just take a listen to here are some of my
thoughts on Lauren Salsman sentencing. This is like an incredibly
emotionally emotional sentencing hearing. I came out. I just remember
(19:22):
coming out of this courthouse after Lauren Salsman sentencing with
my head spinning. Take a listen.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I arrived to the Brooklyn Federal Courthouse for Lauren Salsman
sentencing with a wish and many questions. How had the emaciated,
disconnected and defiant Lauren Salsman, who I observed at their
early hearings, how had she turned into one of the
most valuable witnesses in Keith Rnari's trial, how did she
view her role in the cult that her mother, Nancy
(19:56):
Salzman built, And most of all, I wondered if she
would prison time. Lauren Salzman pled guilty in a closed
hearing on March twenty fifth, two thy nineteen to two
counts of racketeering that carried with it, by today's judge's calculations,
a possible sentence of seven to nine years. However, I
(20:19):
hoped she would walk out of today's hearing with nothing
more than probation. I wasn't alone. Judge Garaffus began today's
session with a reference to the enormous amount of support
Lauren had received in the letters sent to the court.
Even Lauren's victims pen letters that reflected what Gaaffus described as,
(20:40):
quote an empathy you would not expect unquote. Lauren Salzman
came to court without makeup, in a cotton white shirt,
light pink linen, face mask, and hair pulled back in
a ponytail. It was the perfect outfit to surrender yourself
to custody, I thought to myself. Unlike Alison Mack, who
(21:03):
made a grand entrance into the courthouse's larger ceremonial room.
Lauren arrived quietly and largely unnoticed into the smaller courtroom
four D. She cut a small figure on the right
side of the courtroom, next to her lawyer, Hector DS.
(21:23):
Only two victim impact statements were heard. One victim BB
sent a victim impact statement via audio recording. Her voice
filled the courtroom through sobs and pauses. She recounted how
excited she was to have been matched with Lauren as
her Nexium coach. She described Lauren as smart and funny
(21:47):
and kind. However, when she went in to leave Nexium
just days before the Colt's annual retreat, Lauren became quote
a hostage negotiator of sorts unquote. Said Lauren used gaslighting, manipulation,
and lies and what Keith Ranieri had called a mite
is Right technique to keep her from leaving. She went
(22:11):
on to describe how Lauren groomed me to make me
feel safe within the midst of a predator quote, she
used her skills to accept me being a victim with
a smile unquote. And she ended her statement with a
personal message to Lauren, quote, I suspect you were living
(22:31):
in fear since Keith Ranieri's arrest. Today I asked you
to reflect on that feeling and reflect on where you
would have been had you chosen differently. Unquote. Susan Dones
was in court to read her victim impact statement. Dones
emphasized Lauren's personal responsibility in her crimes. Dones pointed out
(22:54):
that Lauren had led a privileged life with plenty of
non Nexium support to leave if she had chosen too. Quote. Yes,
you were only twenty two. Yes you had a sexual
relationship with Keith Ranieri, but you kept it going for
two decades. You had a highly paid position in Nexium,
(23:15):
and you always gave yourself the highest paid jobs. You
were spoiled with a lot of money. Your lawyer said,
no one would have helped you leave Nexium. You had
a father who was a doctor and a stepmother.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Unquote.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Don't went on top.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That's a thing that's really a mystery is Lauren's father
and all this his feelings about the cult and his
his interactions with the cult, and how he supported his
if he supported his daughter, and how he supported his
daughter getting away. But Lauren was really seemed to be
(23:52):
the one who realized that even with her mother being
number two, and maybe it was because her mother was
number two, and her mother knew was a fraud, because
her mother was the first person who pled out right
before the superseding indictment, which is really a key element
(24:12):
that doesn't get talked about in the podcast. So before
the series charges came down, Nancy Salzman pled out, giving
her a really you know, instead of doing what she
probably should have done. I mean, compared to Keith Rinary
doing one hundred and twenty years, she should have been
doing decades. She did a couple of years in prison.
(24:35):
But Laurence Salsman reaching out to Alison Mackinson get out,
get out. And the other really compelling thing in this
podcast is Laurence Salsman talking about and this was obvious,
talking about how Keith Rnary wanted them all to take
the fall, and I think they especially wanted Kathy Russell,
(24:59):
the bookkeeper, to take a fall for a lot of
the financial crimes, and she ended up Kathy Russell also
ended up doing no time. So the people that ended
up doing no time were Laurence Salzman and Kathy Russell.
But I think that Laurence Salzman's the rest of Keith
(25:21):
Rnari was one of the wake up calls. But also,
you know what Laurence Salsman gave up was motherhood. She
wanted to be a mother, and by the time she
got out of Nexium it's too late. Alison Mack now
in her forties. This is also never talked about in
this podcast. How does she feel about what she gave
up now that she's married and we're going to talk
(25:41):
about that in a little bit. What does she feel
that she gave up that, you know, basically the best
years of her life or fertile years of her life.
I don't think she would have been so underweight during
your time in Nexium, but to be with Keith Ranieri
to heal her issues, I mean that has to be
(26:03):
a source of regret. Now, asked Lauren sternly, aren't you
responsible in some way for becoming a sex slave and
a criminal? Tanya Hajar, representing the government, asked the judge
to give Lauren a lenient sentence. Hajar remarked on Salsman's
deep remorse end quote extraordinary contribution to the successful prosecution
(26:28):
of the cult's leader, Keith Raneri, adding her contribution extended
to the crimes Salsman had engaged in, including the harm
she had caused. Daniella Hajar was referring to the immigrant
she kept confined to an empty room for two years
as punishment for having feelings for another man in the cult.
(26:50):
That wasn't Keith Ranieri quote. She was able to give
us information of crimes we weren't even aware of, extending
to the criminal enterprise and Keith Ranari's criminal conduct over decades.
Hector Diaz Salzman's law, So Lauren Salzman was key in
(27:10):
some of the charges that came out against Ranieri. And
you look at that tape, you know that tape of
the I played it yesterday of the Keith Rnari and
Alison Mack deciding how they're going to do this branding
ceremony with these DOS devotes, and you can hear him
(27:38):
talking about how he wants to make it sound like
it's consensual, and he's obviously thinking about the law and
getting away with this, and if they asked to be branded,
maybe that will be go further to being consensual. And
you have to remember that Keith Ranari's defense during his
trial was that this was that and I was that
(27:59):
heum that he had good, good intentions that Nexium did
good help people, and it was a community and a sorority,
and those are all the things that they emphasized in
one of the co podcaster Vanessic Grigardiadis's New York Times
(28:23):
magazine piece, and Vanessa Grigardiadis became a mouthpiece for those
exact talking points that Nexium did good, that it was
a really tight group of women, really smart group of women,
that the women were really running things, and it wasn't
a coercively controlled stable of women for Keith R. Nieri
(28:47):
to use and abuse, which I think is more the
reality of it. So this gets into what Laurence Salzman
has to say, and I almost get again it's a
goosebumpy moment thinking about Laurence Olzman's statement to the court,
take a lesson or you're pleaded for leaning. It's not
what you would expect and see.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
As well, emphasizing her redeeming conduct, her ability to admit
her wrongs and take action to correct her wrongs. He
said she committed criminal acts against those she called her friends.
Diaz went on to highlight Lauren's willingness to correct her
wrongs by pleading guilty, supplying the government with all she
(29:30):
knew about the criminal actions of the cult and testifying
against Keith Raneri, Diaz pointed to the changes Lauren had
made in her life since she had been arrested. She
had gone to school to learn how to be a
dog groomer, and she is now working grooming dogs with
health issues. She had also sought out psychiatric help, working
(29:53):
first with a psychiatrist and now with a therapist who
specializes in people who have left cults. Diaz also pointed
to the fact that this is the first time in
Lauren's adult life that she can see a future not
dictated by her mother or Keith RINERI when Lauren Salzman
(30:14):
stood up to give her statement to the court, I
didn't know what to expect. She had sat through most
of the proceedings with rounded shoulders, chest caved inward, catching
her tears with a tissue at the corner of her eyes.
This is her statement from my notes. It is not complete,
but I think it's important for you to hear Lauren
(30:36):
in her own words. I want to thank Susan and
BB and all the victims. I think they are very brave.
I know how hard it is to stand before the
world and say those things. I hear what you are saying,
and I know it's true. Every day I think about
what I could have done differently. I live with the
(30:59):
fact I hurt the ones I loved, and that's something
I never wanted to do. On the day I was
arrested and early on in home confinement, I didn't understand
the charges against me. All I could feel was incredible relief.
I had been taken out of a situation that had
become a nightmare. Home confinement allowed me to see the
(31:23):
truth about what I had done. I can't take that back.
There isn't a day that goes by where I don't
wish I could. I harmed Daniella, someone who came to
better herself. I failed her, and I failed myself. These
things that happened should have never have happened. I couldn't
(31:46):
live with myself if the truth that I lived with
didn't come out. I feel incredible sorrow and incredible gratitude.
I know that maybe hard to understand, the way this
whole thing has transpired has saved my life. Judge Garafis
let the court sit in silence for a moment before
(32:08):
he said, quote, this case has exposed the raws kind
of manipulation, in taking advantage of human frailty. The violence
imposed on the victims in this case was silent and
secretive and manipulative, the kind of violence so difficult to
expose and to punish. Then the judge asked the most
(32:32):
important unanswered question in the Nexium story, how did this
go on for so long in Albany, New York, even
after it was exposed, even after the federal and state.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Right, So this is so, this is a really good question.
So Judge Garifis is asking how long? How did this
go on for so long? And you have to remember
that Forbes magazine was exposing NEXIM in two thousand and three,
and had Alison Mack done her research before she had
joined XIAM and found this Forbes article, maybe she wouldn't
(33:10):
have been so quick to join it. I'm not blaming her.
I'm just saying that the information was out there, There
was critical information out about NEXIM, and there's there's definitely
a how do I put this an impulse in Alison
(33:36):
Mack to blame Kristen Krook, who was her co star
in Smallville, for introducing her to Keith RINERI but I
mean the introduction can be made. And we'll look at
that introduction in a second. But I mean, this is
vastly different, a different kind of message. And you can
(33:57):
see why Laurence Salzman got no prison time. She was
very helpful to the prosecution. She was very aware of
that her actions, not Keith Rnari's, her actions had caused
the suffering of others and empathetic to the suffering of others.
And those are things that I find missing in Alison
(34:20):
Max's podcast. There's a lot of empathy for herself, a
lot of awareness of Keith Rnari and his evil doing,
but as to beyond thinking that she was doing good
(34:41):
or thinking that she was helping people exactly, there is
kind of like a block like I thought he was good,
I thought he was ethical, but you know, she was
living in all but he's seeing all this destruction, seeing
all this cruelty, seeing people getting weaker and smaller and
looking ill, including herself. And she talks about keeping up
(35:06):
all her next scene rituals at home and home confinement
with an ankle bracelet on her leg. And so is
it a failure of her mother to step in and
say no, because you know, Alison mac talks about this
little dictator and this need to run things. We'll talk
(35:28):
about that in a second. And I think that was
a she's still so she need to be admired, a
need for attention, I need to have power and control
over others, and the need to run things, and that
hasn't seemed to been really resolved, which is why I
worry that she's still dangerous. So just so you know,
(35:55):
so I am streaming both in you on YouTube in
because now we have the ability. So for those who
want to watch this on like a phone, it's like
in phone format and it's in wide format. So if
you're wondering why there's two streams going, that's why it's going.
(36:17):
So people want to watch it in phone format can
watch it in phone format, and people can watch it
in wide format. But you can also see for Alison
Max's defense. Keith Narry certainly worked harder on Alison Mack
than anyone else. Here's their first meeting in volleyball, where
she asked him a question, let's take a look at it.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yes, why is that important to me?
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Because it's because I think it's.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Wonderable because so much ys where I am he was wrapped.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Up in iron give me an example, when I go
to see a film or a piece of artwork, or
something happens to me, you're so excited and one blissful, joyful.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
You know, you can practice generating an extreme feeling of
joy over at anything food. Our methods that we have,
especially two C, it's one of our intense substens. That's
it called now civilization, civilization? What if artistic endeavors were
(37:41):
really bogus?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
What if?
Speaker 6 (37:43):
What if art was just an excuse for those who
couldn't do it? Sometimes the most exciting that you've ever
felt to have all the time dependent.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
So you can see the keither Ner is using neurolinguistic programming.
He's punching his words joy basically trying to hypnotize her.
When people ask like, well, why did Keith Ranary this
kind of schlubby looking guy, How did he gain all
this influence? One, he had the props of Claire Brafman's
(38:16):
money behind him, so he flew private and the Dali
Lama was paid one or two million dollars depending on
who's reporting, to promote Keith Rnari and his teachings. He
had really talented filmmakers behind him making propaganda for him.
(38:38):
Like Mark Vicente. And it's also the other people in
the group. He attracted really smart, upwardly mobile people, and
so you know, often it's not the cult leader that's
the attraction. It's the communities, the people most like you
that can bring you into a cult. But here you
(39:00):
can see kithinary. She's has a question for him, and
she's gonna talk to him about art, ask him questions
about art and making art, because Keith Ranary has the
props of being the smartest man in the world.
Speaker 6 (39:15):
I think the art bad means is you sort of
have to divorce yourself and they thought that ends from dart.
If you feel that our is necessary for that, that's
almost a self condemnation.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Why is this emotion question?
Speaker 7 (39:45):
All right?
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I should be is going to be m So now
Keith Ranais knows he's got her, He's got he's I mean,
this is like, this is how he did though. He
listened to women and he studied them and he profiled them.
(40:07):
But the depths of his cruelty cannot be understated. And
that's something that really came into focus in the trial.
How absolutely cruel, cruel he was, and sadistic and every
(40:32):
day you know Danny, when she was locked in a
room for two years, every day her tooth rotted out
in the back of her mouth. She asked every day
to get out. She drew cartoons, she begged Keith and Airy,
she promised to be better, and every day the answer
was no. I mean, in the best day of her
(40:54):
life was when she says, in that room is when
she got out and went to get a root canal
for her too rotting out in the back of her mouth. So,
I mean, that's just some of it. But you know,
Alison Max's husband talks about how this wasn't like Gallaine
(41:17):
Maxwell and it wasn't deviant the things Alison Mack was.
It was very deviant, and they were ordering things that
would be considered the most deviant in terms of what
you can do sexually. You know, they were ordering cages
(41:38):
and other things for the for these Nexian women. So
this would have had this not been stopped. I mean,
where this would have gone had this not been stopped
is a really good question. So as far as I'm concerned,
I think Nexian was much worse than then in some
(42:01):
ways then Glain Maxwell in Epstein.
Speaker 8 (42:07):
M hm, because it's pointing at something I've never thought about,
and the part of me is kind of freaked out
about accepting this. I'm used to that self condemnation and
comfortable with that if I let go of that belief
(42:32):
that it's not the art that's giving me this feeling.
Is me that's giving me this feeling. And I have
to trust that I will be capable of giving myself.
And I don't necessarily trust that right now. And so
that's scary because I want that feeling.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Are giving you. Yeah, but at some.
Speaker 6 (43:00):
Point I'll speak. I normally don't give people ms.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
I'm a little to some degree, we did.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
A little bit.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
So when he's talking about EMS, he's talking about the
next sim tech, which is kind of rip off of
scientology without the cans exploration of meaning. So why do
you have the associations you have with the feelings and
or attitudes you have towards things. Yeah, that it's hard
(43:52):
to sit through, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Do I I can't.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Was So he made her wait for an hour to
ask this question, which is, you know, very much in
the rinary style, very much about you know, having power
and control over people. And then Alison Mack, when she
was running the female empowerment part of Nexium called Jenness.
(44:27):
Here's how she sold it. Take a lism.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
I thank for Jenness.
Speaker 7 (44:34):
I think is the most gratifying thing that I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
So Audrey, some of them, Audrey brings up a good point.
Thank you, Audrey. This is really important to talk about.
So Maxwell got miners though, and I don't know what
is worse true, but many of Keith Rinari's crimes, crimes
have to do with miners and sexual preditation of minors
(45:03):
and images of minors, and he was openly talking about
it being this is this is one of the moments
in court that I remember, you know, listening to Keith
Rannari spout out off about his ideas about decriminalizing you know,
(45:29):
having to do with the age of consent and and
basically making excuse for those that prey on minors, and
all the Nexium devotees just kind of like like I
would have run out of their screaming. They all were like, oh,
thank you for sharing your vast wisdom vanguard, which is
what he was called in in Nexium. So here's so yeah,
(45:51):
so it is it is a good So there was
that aspect to in Nexium, not often talked about. Thank you, Audrey.
Speaker 7 (46:05):
It's the most challenging thing I've ever done because it
consists of working with a group of people.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
In a way that is totally interdependent, meaning.
Speaker 7 (46:15):
We're all working together and no one is ever punished
and no one.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Is ever Yeah, a lot of this, Audrey has gotten
like kind of whitewashed by The Vow. So the Vow
is the HBO documentary which kind of takes a look
at wild wild like wild Wilde Country, where they look
at these cults and they try to argue for the
good and the cult and the bad and the bad
(46:41):
at the same time. And really what it is is,
this is the same problem with this podcast. Is any
time that you're getting so close to a subject that
you're getting access to a subject, there's a kind of
unwritten agreement for sharing. For getting access to someone like
Alison Mack's story, you're making an maybe it's unspoken agreement
(47:05):
that you'll do your best to present their story in
the best light possible. And so once the Vow, first
of all, it always started out like it was going
to try to make try to argue for the good
or the good things in exiom, but it also made
(47:25):
a deal with Nancy Salzman to be interviewed, and so
the vow part too. My view is just pretty much
I don't think much of it. It's a you know,
they don't ever talk about the freight experiments where they
put electrodes on cult members heads and had them watch
(47:46):
the worst things that you can ever think of imaginable,
the most violent things that you can think of imaginable.
I mean, it's they left a lot out. A lot
left was left on the cutting room floor in the
Vow for an I believe partially due to the fact
that they wanted access with all these key players in
(48:07):
this story and key perpetrators.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
Told that they're wrong or they're bad, and the most.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Important so nobody's ever told they're wrong or they're bad.
They're all told well, Alison Max said she was immediately
pinned as a narcissist and told that she has to
get over her own ego. They were all told that
they're not victims. I mean, all these statements in the
negative should be red flags for everyone. Is exactly what
(48:37):
they were doing. They were punished, told they were bad,
and Nexian was one of the most punishing cults.
Speaker 7 (48:43):
The thing in working on Geness is the relationships in Genus,
and I'm not used to that.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
I'm used to the objective being met.
Speaker 7 (48:49):
I'm used to having like strict, hard fast deadlines and
lots of fear and punishment if i don't get it right.
And in working for Geness, there isn't any of that.
It comes purely from a place of self motivation.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
And that's exactly what collateral was punishments if you don't
hold up your end of the bargain, So what collateral.
So all the so there's the DOS portion of Nexium,
which is the slave master portion of which Allison was
a master, but she was also a branded slave herself.
(49:23):
It's again it's an uncomfortable duality in this story, she
would take collateral. One of the things.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Was was was made up about one of her one
of her slave's family member, you know, family members, things
that would just absolutely.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
Devastate her family. And I remember that victim's family members
just weeping through court hearing other things, pictures. There's lots
of collateral and that Alison Matt collected on people. So
there definitely was punishment and fear of punishment used in this.
(50:15):
It's just very interesting the way let's just go back.
Maybe it's just a tiny little bit hear her view
of it and the way she's selling it is the
exact opposite of what it was.
Speaker 7 (50:26):
Deadlines and lots of fear and punishment if I don't
get it right, and in working for Geness, there isn't
any of that. So it comes purely from a place
of self motivation and self direction, and that is really difficult.
But I would say that working for the Geness is
the most satisfying and purposeful thing I've ever done. Watching
(50:50):
the women who are involved in Jeness completely transform and
evolve in a way that is so pure.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
Is such a privilege.
Speaker 7 (51:00):
And really literally seeing people's lives pack completely turn one
hundred and eighty degrees where in one moment they really
felt like this was all that they had and this
was all that they could do, and then all of
a sudden they come through Geness and they start working
with us and in our community, and it's like a
whole nother life is born out of their new experience
(51:21):
of themselves, and that's an incredibly satisfying and gratifying thing
to do.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
She sounds so much like Grneri's gobblet Gook here too.
Speaker 7 (51:31):
I think it's challenging because I think jeness is an
organization that looks to all participants to be hundred percent
responsible for themselves and their lives. So it makes it
hard to blame people for mistakes that are made when
you're always looking at your own responsibility and participation in
the situation.
Speaker 4 (51:50):
But that's just hard for my ego and my pride.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
I think right there was telling her any any problem.
So this is it's like a very similar thing in
all cults. So any problem that you have with the
cult leader or the cult, the cult is perfect. The
cult leader is perfect. Any problem that you have with
the cult leader or the cult is somehow some kind
of problem with you. And her pride and her ego
(52:17):
were obviously things that were identified. She calls it narcissism
in the podcast.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
I think if the.
Speaker 7 (52:23):
Whole world operated in that way, we'd have a much
more joyful and a more deficient existence. The amount of
time it's been blaming one another is a little ridiculous.
So working for genesis grounding and satisfying and humbling and.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
Wonderful, wonderful. This next question is awesome.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
So this is very telling too.
Speaker 7 (52:52):
Here's if happiness was a national currency.
Speaker 4 (52:55):
What would make you rich?
Speaker 7 (52:58):
And I think the answer to that question is bringing
together people that I love the most in order to
have a good experience somewhere doing something I love, like
putting together dinner parties. I love going traveling with people.
I love organizing spaces and experiences with the people that
I care for the most.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
And it's curious, I wonder how many dinner parties she
had when she was at nix Sam. She certainly didn't
do a lot of traveling. When she was in the
next game, she was mostly in Albany. From what I understand,
there wasn't a lot of traveling, but always in a
position of power over other people. You know, she's the
one organizing things. She's the leader. She wants to be
a leader, which brings us I'm lily to her husband.
(53:44):
So she's married Frank Mink, who wrote a book called
Autobiography of a Recovering Skinhead, which I've read, and it's
about his time as a skinhead, goes who kidnaps a
guy gunpoint, goes to prison, and then gets deradicalized, and
then eventually becomes like a activist for better racial understandings
(54:11):
and anti kind of radicalization and hate. I don't know,
may maybe there's a better way to describe it, but
now so he's gone from being a neo Nazi to
a Jew, and I thought this was just really interesting,
this part where he talks about how he sees his
(54:33):
how he experiences his Judaism. Let's take a listen. Started
to believe.
Speaker 9 (54:39):
Then I started going to study, and I started to reintour,
and I started rapp into filming, and it just all
just started happening. And I'm also in recovery, and I'm
very active in my recovery, which is twelve steps, and
I'd struggle with that for a long time. And when
I started putting this together, the best way I can
(55:00):
describe it is it was like like his Shem is
like the zipper, but the teeth coming together was like
my recovery.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
And so his Shem is God. Just so you don't
wrapping to fill in this kind of ritual done by
men in Judaism, you wear a head piece and you
wrap your non dominant arm while doing prayers.
Speaker 9 (55:25):
Is I'm perfectly coming together and along with my activism
because my activism is one of the main things in
my life and it just all started to come together.
This is where I'm making the full on conversion over
to Judaism. So I'm living on a boat and the
only thing I got to do because I was living
on a boat hiding was watch videos of like Rabbi Friedman,
(55:50):
Rabbi why why all these guys who.
Speaker 8 (55:52):
Just like that?
Speaker 9 (55:54):
Was my main way of learning when I just moved
to a new area. It is hard for me just
to walk into a synagogue with tattoos. He just always
felt weird, you know what I mean. So I kind
to do everything online. It was during COVID, so I
did everything online. I remember I got to talk to
one of the rabbis in person, and I said it
was one of the about rabbis brought me to a
(56:15):
school to come talk. And I said, well, don't you know,
man like like I wasn't raised Jewish? Because I you know,
I feel that I'm like, I feel that I'm like
I wasn't raised Jewish. I have a barn MIT's fight
out and he goes, Frank, if you ever feel judged,
or if anyone ever judges you for that, tell them
to go judge Moses because he wasn't raised Jewish. Neither.
Speaker 3 (56:33):
How about that?
Speaker 9 (56:35):
Just little things like that.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
That's a good story. So I was like, when someone
finds something to believe in. But I wonder, I mean
where I'm where my where? I wonders? You know, when
you accept one really radical ideology, you go on to
(56:59):
another and another, and every time, you know, so like
when you find your family in Skinheads, then you find
your family in AA and then you find your family
in Judaism, And it's always like, you know, every every
kind of development is like the perfect, perfect answer, the
(57:20):
perfect solution. Are you still asking the necessary skeptical questions?
Where does that come in? And where? And do you
fear that you'll do you fear that you'll be brought
into something destructive or that you'll go from kind of
one radical ideology to the next without the necessary skepticism.
(57:44):
So that is now Alison Max's husband, And where the
podcast doesn't talk about, which I thought was really curious,
is her relationship to Judaism. She clearly had a Jewish
wedding and is she a practicing Jew? I would think
thinks she would have to be or not? Now did
she convert? That was unclear, but it seems like in
(58:10):
this podcast that she is. We're going to be hearing
more from Alison Mack, that this is the beginning of
her being a really public person. And she talks about again,
I talked about this yesterday, I'll talk about it again.
She talks about how she thinks maybe she should just
play it small because she won't hurt anybody. But then
(58:30):
there's sort of like a pause like, but I want
to do great things. She wants to do big things.
And I think there's going to be more documentaries and
more of Alison Mack and explaining and trying to explaining
herself and trying to revitalize her image and remake her image,
(58:52):
and also as and rewrite the next same story. What's
the most disturbing to me about this story is just
the or one of the things that's most disturbing about
this podcast is how it takes everything and tumbles the
time of the timing of everything in favor of Alice
and Mack. That she just had some kind of grand
(59:17):
revelation during Keith Rnai's trial or before Keith Rnari's trial,
and had to make some big decision about pleading guilty
when they'd all pled out, they'd all pled out very
early on into this case, So she saved herself, and
I think you can't blame her for wanting to save
herself and do the best thing for herself. Once Nancy
(59:38):
Salisman went down, the number two went down and pled
out who was the second most culpable in this story
besides Keith Rinary. So it's Keith Renairy in the middle,
Nancy Salsman, and then you could look at maybe Alice
and Mack and Laurence Salsman is you know, and Claire
Brahman all very culpable in this case. But Nancy Salzman
(01:00:03):
could have been doing and Alison Mack was facing for
decades in prison and did twenty one months. I mean,
she got off very easy. And there's a part where
she talks about being in prison and getting out of prison,
and she's about to be released in like a month
or two, and she's sad that she has to leave
(01:00:25):
prison and face the real world. So I'm not sure exactly,
you know, it seems to be a lot of empathy
for herself and very little empathy for her victims. Any
empathy that she has for her victims immediately goes on herself. Well,
(01:00:47):
I suffered, I did all this, I took the cold showers.
I wore this kind of punishing brace around necklace around
my belly that would called a what is it called
the salise? Am I right about that? That had kind
(01:01:08):
of wires that went into my belly if I ate
too much? And and I was branded. And yes, no
one's arguing that you weren't a victim of Ranai, But
what is your part in? What's your part? And also
(01:01:29):
all the punishment that you delved out and all the
pain that you that you caused, and the fact that
she I don't know, she seems to have and this
is something the podcast points out, a blind spot around
how she is perceived. She doesn't understand that taking a
(01:01:50):
woman's course, that other students might not want her in
a women's a women's studies course, or or how she
thinks she's going to go forward with a degree in
social work and having that kind of control over other
people's lives and knowing her background, it may be may
(01:02:14):
turn to be problematic. That's what I would say. She
seems surprised that other students have a bad reaction to
her and feel unsafe in her presence knowing her history.
So that's what I have for today. Guys, please hit
the thumbs up, subscribe to the channel, share this episode.
(01:02:39):
Support the channel links are in this in every episode.
You can buy me a coffee, Venmo, Patreon, get access
to content you won't get anywhere else. I will be
back very shortly, always at six pm with a their
(01:03:00):
live stream. Have a great night everyone, Thanks so much
for listening.
Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
My check.
Speaker 10 (01:03:18):
Roberta strides through the static case true crime Gotham, where
the shadows play the place forwards to fold when a
spotlight beams. Fact focused, queen busting, propaganda schemes, glass shadow
lies that goes through the streets, standing for victims, giving
voice their beats.
Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
And YC.
Speaker 10 (01:03:35):
Pole's truth Sharpest Knight Reverda exposing she's the anti froud Light,
partast warrior, dissecting Satan's defense, twisted innocense, claims, breaking pretense.
(01:03:57):
Gotham's Truth Seeker cuts clean with the blaze facts in
the forefront, No Justice gets swaying cold facts drip heavy,
real salt, gun furls, cracking cases open like oysters with
pearls in a sense, gimmicks crumpled full of dust in
the wind for victims. Her creed justice till the end,
(01:04:25):
headphones blazing. She drops heavy artillery. Now we're just twisted meat,
blunt objects. Civility Roberta God receipts that unraveled, deploy exposing
the lies. These frauds as deploy glass of lies that
goes through the streets, standing for victims, given voice, stand meats,
and yet post true sharpest night Roberta exposes she's the
(01:04:47):
anti fraud light.
Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
No
I'm reverta glass and you're listening to my true crime report. Today,
i'd like to talk a little bit more about Alison
Mack and her life after Nexium podcast, which is being
produced by the CBC, and it's a long, long, multi
(00:30):
parter and it's the first that we've really heard from
Alison Mack since her sentencing hearing. She's gotten married, she's
been in classes. She wants to now become a social worker,
so she's taking advanced degree classes to become a social worker.
(00:55):
Hello Blue River, Hello Maestro, thanks to everybody. Hello Melanie.
So I wanted to just finish up about it talking
about it, and I think it's it's Alison Mack has
(01:17):
been a really uncomfortable figure for those of us like
myself who covered Nexium from the courtroom, from the early
hearings on when Alison mac Laurence Salsman. Let me see
if I can get up the show, you guys, get
up the whole list of defendants so you can see
(01:42):
Kathy Russell, Claire Bromfman, Nancy Salzman all arrived in court
and they attended these hearings. The vibe was from them
that they had no idea or didn't care how serious
the charges were again them, and you can hear Alison
Mack in the podcast talking about how she was sure
(02:04):
that it would be worked out at any minute, that
all these that this was just some kind of misunderstanding
and she was sure. She talks about the conversations with
her lawyers. She was sure that everything that she did
in nexium was legal, and they assured her that it
wasn't legal. And those are some of the most fascinating parts, compelling, certainly,
(02:29):
parts of this podcast where she's talking about her lawyers
being like, yeah, no, that's that's illegal. She's like, well,
I just told them to seduce Keith and then Keith
took naked pictures of them and you know, in very
compromising positions. They're like, uh yeah, that collateral. I mean,
(02:52):
the collateral part was like such a key part of
the coersion. So the idea that they would release something
that would be un flattering, damaging to you or your
family should you not go through with your commitments to
your master and dos was such a key part of
(03:14):
the coersion and trafficking and everything having to do with
Nexium and the Cold has to do with levels of
power of power and control over other people. Ultimately, Keith
Rnari had had the most power. But the way Nexium worked,
(03:35):
as far as you as teaching the curriculum, you went
up and you had different sashes. So the higher up
you gotten Nexium, the different you moved up in the
you got a different color sash. And Alison Mack never
went as far as someone like Mark Vicente as far
as this as in sashes, but she had incredible influence
(04:00):
due to her role in as as her role basically
as her public persona as an actress, and her former
role in Smallville that made her a semi maybe a
famous person, a D deep C list B list famous person.
(04:22):
I don't know, depending on how you're gonna how you're
gonna look at it. I mean, certainly Smallville was a
successful TV show and had a long run.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
But so.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
This is here's a look at the Naxian defendants. Keith Narry,
of course, I'm forgetting the most. And they'd come in
and they'd sort of smile and giggle and talk to
each other, and there was a feeling looking at Alison
max lawyers like you got a sense looking at her
(05:01):
lawyers like that they didn't know what to do with her. Like,
what are we going to do? We have such a
severely brainwashed client. What are we going to do with
this client? How are we going to how are we
going to defend this client? And I think that's some
of the more compelling parts of this podcast, where Alison
(05:21):
Mack talks about our profit, where she's like, just tell
me what to say. I don't know what to say.
She's still so convinced that what she did was good
or had good effects. And I want to talk about
in this podcast what we talk about when we talk
about remorse, or what we expect to hear when we're
(05:43):
when we're hearing from someone like Alison Mack, who was
both a victim and a victimizer in this cult. It's
a very uncomfortable duality that she plays in this story.
So she was both worked on and grew owned by
Keith RNERI to take on this position as dos slave master,
(06:05):
especially after Pam Kafritz died, who was really the key
recruiter and how she fulfilled the role and how she
looked at her victims now. And I think that's what's
really missing from this podcast, is any acknowledgment of the
(06:29):
pain that she caused her victims. So so much of
this podcast is Alison Mack explaining as to why she
was susceptible to Nexium. So she brings up her past
as an actress, how she was a child actress, which
I think is flat out child abuse, and how she
(06:50):
was beholden to these male directors and punished for being
to She talks about being as a young teenager, I
think twelve or thirteen for being overtly sexual or flirting
with a male director and how that set her up.
(07:13):
I think what she's saying is that set her up
to be a victim of Breneri. To be as an actor,
you're a compliant, you say the lines, you do the things.
And Alison Mack was known as an actor or an actress,
whatever words you want to use, who would work very
(07:34):
professionally and go the extra mile to please the director.
And so that kind of she's saying that that held
over into Nexium, where she would go the extra mile
to please Keith Rinari, who was the head of the cult.
But it also she talks about a relationship she had
(07:56):
with a boyfriend that was very destructive and unhealthy and
that he would hurt himself and say, look what you
made me do and use those kind of manipulation tactics.
And so she's right from this unhealthy relationship straight into Nexium.
But when it comes to real reflection on how she
(08:19):
treated other women and why she treated why she felt
it was okay, it's you always come up to the
same roadblock with Alison act like I thought it would
help them, I thought it was doing good. But and
if I was turned off by what I was seeing,
either with the messages that I saw Keith Ranari writing
(08:39):
other women or any of the other abuse of things
that I saw at Nexium, I always kind of wrote
it off in my head that that Keith Ranari would
somehow make it right, that his intentions were good, that
he was the most ethical person. And you have to
(09:00):
member that this is a cult, that the curriculum was,
that there were no victims. I almost called this episode
like no victims, but lots of victims left. And it
seems like in this podcast she went to her sentencing
thinking that she was going to hoping that she would
(09:22):
get no prison time because she had tried to help
the prosecution out. She sounds like she wasn't of much help,
that she was way too still too brainwashed to help
be of any or much help, but she tried. Whereas
(09:42):
Nancy Salzman, who's the bottom middle here, I mean Nancy
Salzman's daughter, excuse me, Lauren Salsman who's the bottom middle here,
testified and was one of the strongest witnesses for the
prosecution in the case against Keith Ryniering. So everyone, so
we're looking at all these This is another really important
thing that this podcast does, which is plays with time.
(10:04):
So we're looking at all the defendants here. Kathy Russell,
who was the bookkeeper on the top left. Keith Rinai
in the middle, who is the cult leader, said he
had a two hundred and forty IQ which is actually
an IQ test that one of his child victims had
taken take home test. Nancy Salzman on the top right,
(10:25):
who is the number two in Nexium, who taught most
of the curriculum or a lot of the curriculum, is
the second most established neural linguistic programmer in the world.
So neural linguistic programming is a kind of painting portraits
with words or hypnosis using words. And the bottom left
(10:50):
is Alison Mack, middle is Laurence Salisman, and the right
is so Lauren Salzman is Nancy Salzman's daughter, and Claire
Brafman on the bottom the Seagram's heiress, So with her sister,
her sister fled the country when it looked like charges
were coming down her sister Sarah and has never faced
(11:14):
any charges for her part in nexium. So what are
we looking for when we're looking for remorse is some
acknowledgment of the of the of your part in the
story and your responsibility in the story. And Alison Mack
(11:35):
has no problem saying that she did the thing, and
she did what she was accused of and it was illegal.
But it's always with the idea that well, the punishments
that I gave out I did too, so like I
did to myself too, So I took cold showers. I
was in this predatory relationship with Ranieri. I also was
(12:02):
branded with a cauterizing tool and with no on my hip,
you know, in my groin area, like all of the
dos slaves were, And that because I experienced that pain
that I guess I'm just that my responsibility. The person
(12:27):
really responsible is Keith Rnari, which is partially true. But
where is Alison max part in this? And that really
never gets answered, it gets explained away, and this is
something that we saw when we looked at her sentencing,
and so they're hoping she goes into her sentencing hoping
that she's going to get what eventually Lauren Salzman, who
(12:53):
sentence after her, gets, which is like no prison time.
And of course that's another thing that they mess. They
play with time. They basically move the time of everything
so that they have in this podcast, they have Alison
Mac deciding whether she's going to plead out as Keith
Ranari's trial is going on, but everyone pled out before
(13:14):
Keith Ranari's trial, everyone but Keith Ranary led out, meaning
pled guilty, leaving only Keith Ranary to face trial. And
the sentencing happened in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one after
the pandemic, so the sentencing was vastly delayed because of
(13:38):
the pandemic. So Alison mac sentencing happened before Lauren Salzman sentencing,
and in the podcast, they have Alison Mack hoping that
she'll get no prison time like Lauren, but Lauren hadn't
been sentenced at that point, so she had hoped that
she got no prison time just for being helping the
(14:02):
government and pleading guilty and for being both a victim
and a perpetrator in the story. And Judge Garafis, who
they describe him in this as coming out of Central
casting because he had a New York accent. I would say,
Judge Garafus is like no judge I've ever seen. He
(14:24):
was the most psychologically astute, intuitive judge. There's one moment
at Claire Brofman sentencing that I'll never forget where Claire
Broffman was giving her speech and she started to revictimize
her victim with nexium techniques and Judge Garifis like picked
(14:45):
up on it immediately and stopped her and said, this
judge isn't blind. I mean I almost get goosebumps thinking
about it now. So I don't think there's anything like
from Central. I mean maybe because he had a New
York accent. Is that what they're saying means the most
of If I would call him, I would call him
(15:05):
a kind of clastic, intuitive, most amazing judge for this case,
and the perfect judge for this case. And I think
that the sentences that he gave I would have probably
given Alison Mack a longer sentence Besides for Alison Mack,
I thought was pretty fair, and I agreed with all
(15:27):
of it except for Mac. I thought Alison Mack should
have for her part, which was she tortured these women,
so I thought she should have done more time with
very little remorse. So when we go to her sentencing,
here's what Alison Mack said at her sentencing. She said,
(15:51):
I'm sorry to those of you that I brought into Nexiom.
I am sorry I ever exposed you to the nefarious
and emotionally abusive schemes of a twisted man. So it's
sort of like it's Keith Naire, I'm sorry I brought
you to this horrible person. But again, again it's a
kind of blind spot with her. What was your part?
(16:15):
And she expresses a great deal of rage and jealousy
towards women and a frustration that she can't control women
as well as she can control men, especially using her sexuality.
But she talks about punishments that she did to herself
and how hard she was on herself and starving herself
and all that was very obvious in court that the
(16:38):
women were not well and were very ill and very brainwashed.
But I think she still has a long ways to go.
To get better and if anything, that this podcast is
very premature, because you know, there's something that comes along
(17:02):
with being an actor or an actress or I guess
I'll just use the word actress. Stick with that. You
get to actress and having this kind of power and
ability to manipulate people and manipulate people with your put
on emotions. And Alison mack was indeed like the star
of her family, and her mother talks about being terribly
(17:27):
afraid of her own daughter, of pushing her own daughter
away to the point when they put down millions of
I think it was like some incredible amount of money
bond money for her or her bail that they said,
we want you to be loyal to us and not Renery.
They were worried that she would take the bail money
(17:49):
and be loyal to Renery. So that's when Alison mac
moved home and her mother was assuring her that she
wasn't crazy. Was I'm during listening to it, was that
the best thing to do maybe tell her, you know.
(18:10):
And it's unclear exactly what kind of help Alison mackot
and when she got it, because through many many years
through her sentencing, it doesn't seem like and to now
she's still talking about all the good parts of nexium.
So it's a little bit like talking about something that's
(18:32):
entirely destructive that I don't think anybody that got into
nexium came out better than then when they went in.
There was so much destruction caused by this cult that
I think that the good parts, whatever good you got,
are really negated by the amount of destruction that it caused.
(18:56):
But so that's Alison Max sentens, and that's in a
broad contrast to someone like Lauren Salsman sentencing. And let's
just take a listen to here are some of my
thoughts on Lauren Salsman sentencing. This is like an incredibly
emotionally emotional sentencing hearing. I came out. I just remember
(19:22):
coming out of this courthouse after Lauren Salsman sentencing with
my head spinning. Take a listen.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
I arrived to the Brooklyn Federal Courthouse for Lauren Salsman
sentencing with a wish and many questions. How had the emaciated,
disconnected and defiant Lauren Salsman, who I observed at their
early hearings, how had she turned into one of the
most valuable witnesses in Keith Rnari's trial, how did she
view her role in the cult that her mother, Nancy
(19:56):
Salzman built, And most of all, I wondered if she
would prison time. Lauren Salzman pled guilty in a closed
hearing on March twenty fifth, two thy nineteen to two
counts of racketeering that carried with it, by today's judge's calculations,
a possible sentence of seven to nine years. However, I
(20:19):
hoped she would walk out of today's hearing with nothing
more than probation. I wasn't alone. Judge Garaffus began today's
session with a reference to the enormous amount of support
Lauren had received in the letters sent to the court.
Even Lauren's victims pen letters that reflected what Gaaffus described as,
(20:40):
quote an empathy you would not expect unquote. Lauren Salzman
came to court without makeup, in a cotton white shirt,
light pink linen, face mask, and hair pulled back in
a ponytail. It was the perfect outfit to surrender yourself
to custody, I thought to myself. Unlike Alison Mack, who
(21:03):
made a grand entrance into the courthouse's larger ceremonial room.
Lauren arrived quietly and largely unnoticed into the smaller courtroom
four D. She cut a small figure on the right
side of the courtroom, next to her lawyer, Hector DS.
(21:23):
Only two victim impact statements were heard. One victim BB
sent a victim impact statement via audio recording. Her voice
filled the courtroom through sobs and pauses. She recounted how
excited she was to have been matched with Lauren as
her Nexium coach. She described Lauren as smart and funny
(21:47):
and kind. However, when she went in to leave Nexium
just days before the Colt's annual retreat, Lauren became quote
a hostage negotiator of sorts unquote. Said Lauren used gaslighting, manipulation,
and lies and what Keith Ranieri had called a mite
is Right technique to keep her from leaving. She went
(22:11):
on to describe how Lauren groomed me to make me
feel safe within the midst of a predator quote, she
used her skills to accept me being a victim with
a smile unquote. And she ended her statement with a
personal message to Lauren, quote, I suspect you were living
(22:31):
in fear since Keith Ranieri's arrest. Today I asked you
to reflect on that feeling and reflect on where you
would have been had you chosen differently. Unquote. Susan Dones
was in court to read her victim impact statement. Dones
emphasized Lauren's personal responsibility in her crimes. Dones pointed out
(22:54):
that Lauren had led a privileged life with plenty of
non Nexium support to leave if she had chosen too. Quote. Yes,
you were only twenty two. Yes you had a sexual
relationship with Keith Ranieri, but you kept it going for
two decades. You had a highly paid position in Nexium,
(23:15):
and you always gave yourself the highest paid jobs. You
were spoiled with a lot of money. Your lawyer said,
no one would have helped you leave Nexium. You had
a father who was a doctor and a stepmother.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Unquote.
Speaker 3 (23:30):
Don't went on top.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
That's a thing that's really a mystery is Lauren's father
and all this his feelings about the cult and his
his interactions with the cult, and how he supported his
if he supported his daughter, and how he supported his
daughter getting away. But Lauren was really seemed to be
(23:52):
the one who realized that even with her mother being
number two, and maybe it was because her mother was
number two, and her mother knew was a fraud, because
her mother was the first person who pled out right
before the superseding indictment, which is really a key element
(24:12):
that doesn't get talked about in the podcast. So before
the series charges came down, Nancy Salzman pled out, giving
her a really you know, instead of doing what she
probably should have done. I mean, compared to Keith Rinary
doing one hundred and twenty years, she should have been
doing decades. She did a couple of years in prison.
(24:35):
But Laurence Salsman reaching out to Alison Mackinson get out,
get out. And the other really compelling thing in this
podcast is Laurence Salsman talking about and this was obvious,
talking about how Keith Rnary wanted them all to take
the fall, and I think they especially wanted Kathy Russell,
(24:59):
the bookkeeper, to take a fall for a lot of
the financial crimes, and she ended up Kathy Russell also
ended up doing no time. So the people that ended
up doing no time were Laurence Salzman and Kathy Russell.
But I think that Laurence Salzman's the rest of Keith
(25:21):
Rnari was one of the wake up calls. But also,
you know what Laurence Salsman gave up was motherhood. She
wanted to be a mother, and by the time she
got out of Nexium it's too late. Alison Mack now
in her forties. This is also never talked about in
this podcast. How does she feel about what she gave
up now that she's married and we're going to talk
(25:41):
about that in a little bit. What does she feel
that she gave up that, you know, basically the best
years of her life or fertile years of her life.
I don't think she would have been so underweight during
your time in Nexium, but to be with Keith Ranieri
to heal her issues, I mean that has to be
(26:03):
a source of regret. Now, asked Lauren sternly, aren't you
responsible in some way for becoming a sex slave and
a criminal? Tanya Hajar, representing the government, asked the judge
to give Lauren a lenient sentence. Hajar remarked on Salsman's
deep remorse end quote extraordinary contribution to the successful prosecution
(26:28):
of the cult's leader, Keith Raneri, adding her contribution extended
to the crimes Salsman had engaged in, including the harm
she had caused. Daniella Hajar was referring to the immigrant
she kept confined to an empty room for two years
as punishment for having feelings for another man in the cult.
(26:50):
That wasn't Keith Ranieri quote. She was able to give
us information of crimes we weren't even aware of, extending
to the criminal enterprise and Keith Ranari's criminal conduct over decades.
Hector Diaz Salzman's law, So Lauren Salzman was key in
(27:10):
some of the charges that came out against Ranieri. And
you look at that tape, you know that tape of
the I played it yesterday of the Keith Rnari and
Alison Mack deciding how they're going to do this branding
ceremony with these DOS devotes, and you can hear him
(27:38):
talking about how he wants to make it sound like
it's consensual, and he's obviously thinking about the law and
getting away with this, and if they asked to be branded,
maybe that will be go further to being consensual. And
you have to remember that Keith Ranari's defense during his
trial was that this was that and I was that
(27:59):
heum that he had good, good intentions that Nexium did
good help people, and it was a community and a sorority,
and those are all the things that they emphasized in
one of the co podcaster Vanessic Grigardiadis's New York Times
(28:23):
magazine piece, and Vanessa Grigardiadis became a mouthpiece for those
exact talking points that Nexium did good, that it was
a really tight group of women, really smart group of women,
that the women were really running things, and it wasn't
a coercively controlled stable of women for Keith R. Nieri
(28:47):
to use and abuse, which I think is more the
reality of it. So this gets into what Laurence Salzman
has to say, and I almost get again it's a
goosebumpy moment thinking about Laurence Olzman's statement to the court,
take a lesson or you're pleaded for leaning. It's not
what you would expect and see.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
As well, emphasizing her redeeming conduct, her ability to admit
her wrongs and take action to correct her wrongs. He
said she committed criminal acts against those she called her friends.
Diaz went on to highlight Lauren's willingness to correct her
wrongs by pleading guilty, supplying the government with all she
(29:30):
knew about the criminal actions of the cult and testifying
against Keith Raneri, Diaz pointed to the changes Lauren had
made in her life since she had been arrested. She
had gone to school to learn how to be a
dog groomer, and she is now working grooming dogs with
health issues. She had also sought out psychiatric help, working
(29:53):
first with a psychiatrist and now with a therapist who
specializes in people who have left cults. Diaz also pointed
to the fact that this is the first time in
Lauren's adult life that she can see a future not
dictated by her mother or Keith RINERI when Lauren Salzman
(30:14):
stood up to give her statement to the court, I
didn't know what to expect. She had sat through most
of the proceedings with rounded shoulders, chest caved inward, catching
her tears with a tissue at the corner of her eyes.
This is her statement from my notes. It is not complete,
but I think it's important for you to hear Lauren
(30:36):
in her own words. I want to thank Susan and
BB and all the victims. I think they are very brave.
I know how hard it is to stand before the
world and say those things. I hear what you are saying,
and I know it's true. Every day I think about
what I could have done differently. I live with the
(30:59):
fact I hurt the ones I loved, and that's something
I never wanted to do. On the day I was
arrested and early on in home confinement, I didn't understand
the charges against me. All I could feel was incredible relief.
I had been taken out of a situation that had
become a nightmare. Home confinement allowed me to see the
(31:23):
truth about what I had done. I can't take that back.
There isn't a day that goes by where I don't
wish I could. I harmed Daniella, someone who came to
better herself. I failed her, and I failed myself. These
things that happened should have never have happened. I couldn't
(31:46):
live with myself if the truth that I lived with
didn't come out. I feel incredible sorrow and incredible gratitude.
I know that maybe hard to understand, the way this
whole thing has transpired has saved my life. Judge Garafis
let the court sit in silence for a moment before
(32:08):
he said, quote, this case has exposed the raws kind
of manipulation, in taking advantage of human frailty. The violence
imposed on the victims in this case was silent and
secretive and manipulative, the kind of violence so difficult to
expose and to punish. Then the judge asked the most
(32:32):
important unanswered question in the Nexium story, how did this
go on for so long in Albany, New York, even
after it was exposed, even after the federal and state.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Right, So this is so, this is a really good question.
So Judge Garifis is asking how long? How did this
go on for so long? And you have to remember
that Forbes magazine was exposing NEXIM in two thousand and three,
and had Alison Mack done her research before she had
joined XIAM and found this Forbes article, maybe she wouldn't
(33:10):
have been so quick to join it. I'm not blaming her.
I'm just saying that the information was out there, There
was critical information out about NEXIM, and there's there's definitely
a how do I put this an impulse in Alison
(33:36):
Mack to blame Kristen Krook, who was her co star
in Smallville, for introducing her to Keith RINERI but I
mean the introduction can be made. And we'll look at
that introduction in a second. But I mean, this is
vastly different, a different kind of message. And you can
(33:57):
see why Laurence Salzman got no prison time. She was
very helpful to the prosecution. She was very aware of
that her actions, not Keith Rnari's, her actions had caused
the suffering of others and empathetic to the suffering of others.
And those are things that I find missing in Alison
(34:20):
Max's podcast. There's a lot of empathy for herself, a
lot of awareness of Keith Rnari and his evil doing,
but as to beyond thinking that she was doing good
(34:41):
or thinking that she was helping people exactly, there is
kind of like a block like I thought he was good,
I thought he was ethical, but you know, she was
living in all but he's seeing all this destruction, seeing
all this cruelty, seeing people getting weaker and smaller and
looking ill, including herself. And she talks about keeping up
(35:06):
all her next scene rituals at home and home confinement
with an ankle bracelet on her leg. And so is
it a failure of her mother to step in and
say no, because you know, Alison mac talks about this
little dictator and this need to run things. We'll talk
(35:28):
about that in a second. And I think that was
a she's still so she need to be admired, a
need for attention, I need to have power and control
over others, and the need to run things, and that
hasn't seemed to been really resolved, which is why I
worry that she's still dangerous. So just so you know,
(35:55):
so I am streaming both in you on YouTube in
because now we have the ability. So for those who
want to watch this on like a phone, it's like
in phone format and it's in wide format. So if
you're wondering why there's two streams going, that's why it's going.
(36:17):
So people want to watch it in phone format can
watch it in phone format, and people can watch it
in wide format. But you can also see for Alison
Max's defense. Keith Narry certainly worked harder on Alison Mack
than anyone else. Here's their first meeting in volleyball, where
she asked him a question, let's take a look at it.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
Yes, why is that important to me?
Speaker 3 (36:49):
Because it's because I think it's.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Wonderable because so much ys where I am he was wrapped.
Speaker 5 (37:01):
Up in iron give me an example, when I go
to see a film or a piece of artwork, or
something happens to me, you're so excited and one blissful, joyful.
Speaker 6 (37:19):
You know, you can practice generating an extreme feeling of
joy over at anything food. Our methods that we have,
especially two C, it's one of our intense substens. That's
it called now civilization, civilization? What if artistic endeavors were
(37:41):
really bogus?
Speaker 3 (37:42):
What if?
Speaker 6 (37:43):
What if art was just an excuse for those who
couldn't do it? Sometimes the most exciting that you've ever
felt to have all the time dependent.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
So you can see the keither Ner is using neurolinguistic programming.
He's punching his words joy basically trying to hypnotize her.
When people ask like, well, why did Keith Ranary this
kind of schlubby looking guy, How did he gain all
this influence? One, he had the props of Claire Brafman's
(38:16):
money behind him, so he flew private and the Dali
Lama was paid one or two million dollars depending on
who's reporting, to promote Keith Rnari and his teachings. He
had really talented filmmakers behind him making propaganda for him.
(38:38):
Like Mark Vicente. And it's also the other people in
the group. He attracted really smart, upwardly mobile people, and
so you know, often it's not the cult leader that's
the attraction. It's the communities, the people most like you
that can bring you into a cult. But here you
(39:00):
can see kithinary. She's has a question for him, and
she's gonna talk to him about art, ask him questions
about art and making art, because Keith Ranary has the
props of being the smartest man in the world.
Speaker 6 (39:15):
I think the art bad means is you sort of
have to divorce yourself and they thought that ends from dart.
If you feel that our is necessary for that, that's
almost a self condemnation.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
Why is this emotion question?
Speaker 7 (39:45):
All right?
Speaker 1 (39:46):
I should be is going to be m So now
Keith Ranais knows he's got her, He's got he's I mean,
this is like, this is how he did though. He
listened to women and he studied them and he profiled them.
(40:07):
But the depths of his cruelty cannot be understated. And
that's something that really came into focus in the trial.
How absolutely cruel, cruel he was, and sadistic and every
(40:32):
day you know Danny, when she was locked in a
room for two years, every day her tooth rotted out
in the back of her mouth. She asked every day
to get out. She drew cartoons, she begged Keith and Airy,
she promised to be better, and every day the answer
was no. I mean, in the best day of her
(40:54):
life was when she says, in that room is when
she got out and went to get a root canal
for her too rotting out in the back of her mouth. So,
I mean, that's just some of it. But you know,
Alison Max's husband talks about how this wasn't like Gallaine
(41:17):
Maxwell and it wasn't deviant the things Alison Mack was.
It was very deviant, and they were ordering things that
would be considered the most deviant in terms of what
you can do sexually. You know, they were ordering cages
(41:38):
and other things for the for these Nexian women. So
this would have had this not been stopped. I mean,
where this would have gone had this not been stopped
is a really good question. So as far as I'm concerned,
I think Nexian was much worse than then in some
(42:01):
ways then Glain Maxwell in Epstein.
Speaker 8 (42:07):
M hm, because it's pointing at something I've never thought about,
and the part of me is kind of freaked out
about accepting this. I'm used to that self condemnation and
comfortable with that if I let go of that belief
(42:32):
that it's not the art that's giving me this feeling.
Is me that's giving me this feeling. And I have
to trust that I will be capable of giving myself.
And I don't necessarily trust that right now. And so
that's scary because I want that feeling.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Are giving you. Yeah, but at some.
Speaker 6 (43:00):
Point I'll speak. I normally don't give people ms.
Speaker 4 (43:09):
I'm a little to some degree, we did.
Speaker 3 (43:21):
A little bit.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
So when he's talking about EMS, he's talking about the
next sim tech, which is kind of rip off of
scientology without the cans exploration of meaning. So why do
you have the associations you have with the feelings and
or attitudes you have towards things. Yeah, that it's hard
(43:52):
to sit through, isn't it?
Speaker 4 (43:54):
Do I I can't.
Speaker 1 (44:00):
Was So he made her wait for an hour to
ask this question, which is, you know, very much in
the rinary style, very much about you know, having power
and control over people. And then Alison Mack, when she
was running the female empowerment part of Nexium called Jenness.
(44:27):
Here's how she sold it. Take a lism.
Speaker 4 (44:33):
I thank for Jenness.
Speaker 7 (44:34):
I think is the most gratifying thing that I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (44:39):
So Audrey, some of them, Audrey brings up a good point.
Thank you, Audrey. This is really important to talk about.
So Maxwell got miners though, and I don't know what
is worse true, but many of Keith Rinari's crimes, crimes
have to do with miners and sexual preditation of minors
(45:03):
and images of minors, and he was openly talking about
it being this is this is one of the moments
in court that I remember, you know, listening to Keith
Rannari spout out off about his ideas about decriminalizing you know,
(45:29):
having to do with the age of consent and and
basically making excuse for those that prey on minors, and
all the Nexium devotees just kind of like like I
would have run out of their screaming. They all were like, oh,
thank you for sharing your vast wisdom vanguard, which is
what he was called in in Nexium. So here's so yeah,
(45:51):
so it is it is a good So there was
that aspect to in Nexium, not often talked about. Thank you, Audrey.
Speaker 7 (46:05):
It's the most challenging thing I've ever done because it
consists of working with a group of people.
Speaker 4 (46:09):
In a way that is totally interdependent, meaning.
Speaker 7 (46:15):
We're all working together and no one is ever punished
and no one.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
Is ever Yeah, a lot of this, Audrey has gotten
like kind of whitewashed by The Vow. So the Vow
is the HBO documentary which kind of takes a look
at wild wild like wild Wilde Country, where they look
at these cults and they try to argue for the
good and the cult and the bad and the bad
(46:41):
at the same time. And really what it is is,
this is the same problem with this podcast. Is any
time that you're getting so close to a subject that
you're getting access to a subject, there's a kind of
unwritten agreement for sharing. For getting access to someone like
Alison Mack's story, you're making an maybe it's unspoken agreement
(47:05):
that you'll do your best to present their story in
the best light possible. And so once the Vow, first
of all, it always started out like it was going
to try to make try to argue for the good
or the good things in exiom, but it also made
(47:25):
a deal with Nancy Salzman to be interviewed, and so
the vow part too. My view is just pretty much
I don't think much of it. It's a you know,
they don't ever talk about the freight experiments where they
put electrodes on cult members heads and had them watch
(47:46):
the worst things that you can ever think of imaginable,
the most violent things that you can think of imaginable.
I mean, it's they left a lot out. A lot
left was left on the cutting room floor in the
Vow for an I believe partially due to the fact
that they wanted access with all these key players in
(48:07):
this story and key perpetrators.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
Told that they're wrong or they're bad, and the most.
Speaker 1 (48:14):
Important so nobody's ever told they're wrong or they're bad.
They're all told well, Alison Max said she was immediately
pinned as a narcissist and told that she has to
get over her own ego. They were all told that
they're not victims. I mean, all these statements in the
negative should be red flags for everyone. Is exactly what
(48:37):
they were doing. They were punished, told they were bad,
and Nexian was one of the most punishing cults.
Speaker 7 (48:43):
The thing in working on Geness is the relationships in Genus,
and I'm not used to that.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
I'm used to the objective being met.
Speaker 7 (48:49):
I'm used to having like strict, hard fast deadlines and
lots of fear and punishment if i don't get it right.
And in working for Geness, there isn't any of that.
It comes purely from a place of self motivation.
Speaker 1 (49:02):
And that's exactly what collateral was punishments if you don't
hold up your end of the bargain, So what collateral.
So all the so there's the DOS portion of Nexium,
which is the slave master portion of which Allison was
a master, but she was also a branded slave herself.
(49:23):
It's again it's an uncomfortable duality in this story, she
would take collateral. One of the things.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Was was was made up about one of her one
of her slave's family member, you know, family members, things
that would just absolutely.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
Devastate her family. And I remember that victim's family members
just weeping through court hearing other things, pictures. There's lots
of collateral and that Alison Matt collected on people. So
there definitely was punishment and fear of punishment used in this.
(50:15):
It's just very interesting the way let's just go back.
Maybe it's just a tiny little bit hear her view
of it and the way she's selling it is the
exact opposite of what it was.
Speaker 7 (50:26):
Deadlines and lots of fear and punishment if I don't
get it right, and in working for Geness, there isn't
any of that. So it comes purely from a place
of self motivation and self direction, and that is really difficult.
But I would say that working for the Geness is
the most satisfying and purposeful thing I've ever done. Watching
(50:50):
the women who are involved in Jeness completely transform and
evolve in a way that is so pure.
Speaker 4 (50:58):
Is such a privilege.
Speaker 7 (51:00):
And really literally seeing people's lives pack completely turn one
hundred and eighty degrees where in one moment they really
felt like this was all that they had and this
was all that they could do, and then all of
a sudden they come through Geness and they start working
with us and in our community, and it's like a
whole nother life is born out of their new experience
(51:21):
of themselves, and that's an incredibly satisfying and gratifying thing
to do.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
She sounds so much like Grneri's gobblet Gook here too.
Speaker 7 (51:31):
I think it's challenging because I think jeness is an
organization that looks to all participants to be hundred percent
responsible for themselves and their lives. So it makes it
hard to blame people for mistakes that are made when
you're always looking at your own responsibility and participation in
the situation.
Speaker 4 (51:50):
But that's just hard for my ego and my pride.
Speaker 1 (51:55):
I think right there was telling her any any problem.
So this is it's like a very similar thing in
all cults. So any problem that you have with the
cult leader or the cult, the cult is perfect. The
cult leader is perfect. Any problem that you have with
the cult leader or the cult is somehow some kind
of problem with you. And her pride and her ego
(52:17):
were obviously things that were identified. She calls it narcissism
in the podcast.
Speaker 2 (52:23):
I think if the.
Speaker 7 (52:23):
Whole world operated in that way, we'd have a much
more joyful and a more deficient existence. The amount of
time it's been blaming one another is a little ridiculous.
So working for genesis grounding and satisfying and humbling and.
Speaker 4 (52:40):
Wonderful, wonderful. This next question is awesome.
Speaker 1 (52:50):
So this is very telling too.
Speaker 7 (52:52):
Here's if happiness was a national currency.
Speaker 4 (52:55):
What would make you rich?
Speaker 7 (52:58):
And I think the answer to that question is bringing
together people that I love the most in order to
have a good experience somewhere doing something I love, like
putting together dinner parties. I love going traveling with people.
I love organizing spaces and experiences with the people that
I care for the most.
Speaker 1 (53:19):
And it's curious, I wonder how many dinner parties she
had when she was at nix Sam. She certainly didn't
do a lot of traveling. When she was in the
next game, she was mostly in Albany. From what I understand,
there wasn't a lot of traveling, but always in a
position of power over other people. You know, she's the
one organizing things. She's the leader. She wants to be
a leader, which brings us I'm lily to her husband.
(53:44):
So she's married Frank Mink, who wrote a book called
Autobiography of a Recovering Skinhead, which I've read, and it's
about his time as a skinhead, goes who kidnaps a
guy gunpoint, goes to prison, and then gets deradicalized, and
then eventually becomes like a activist for better racial understandings
(54:11):
and anti kind of radicalization and hate. I don't know,
may maybe there's a better way to describe it, but
now so he's gone from being a neo Nazi to
a Jew, and I thought this was just really interesting,
this part where he talks about how he sees his
(54:33):
how he experiences his Judaism. Let's take a listen. Started
to believe.
Speaker 9 (54:39):
Then I started going to study, and I started to reintour,
and I started rapp into filming, and it just all
just started happening. And I'm also in recovery, and I'm
very active in my recovery, which is twelve steps, and
I'd struggle with that for a long time. And when
I started putting this together, the best way I can
(55:00):
describe it is it was like like his Shem is
like the zipper, but the teeth coming together was like
my recovery.
Speaker 1 (55:07):
And so his Shem is God. Just so you don't
wrapping to fill in this kind of ritual done by
men in Judaism, you wear a head piece and you
wrap your non dominant arm while doing prayers.
Speaker 9 (55:25):
Is I'm perfectly coming together and along with my activism
because my activism is one of the main things in
my life and it just all started to come together.
This is where I'm making the full on conversion over
to Judaism. So I'm living on a boat and the
only thing I got to do because I was living
on a boat hiding was watch videos of like Rabbi Friedman,
(55:50):
Rabbi why why all these guys who.
Speaker 8 (55:52):
Just like that?
Speaker 9 (55:54):
Was my main way of learning when I just moved
to a new area. It is hard for me just
to walk into a synagogue with tattoos. He just always
felt weird, you know what I mean. So I kind
to do everything online. It was during COVID, so I
did everything online. I remember I got to talk to
one of the rabbis in person, and I said it
was one of the about rabbis brought me to a
(56:15):
school to come talk. And I said, well, don't you know,
man like like I wasn't raised Jewish? Because I you know,
I feel that I'm like, I feel that I'm like
I wasn't raised Jewish. I have a barn MIT's fight
out and he goes, Frank, if you ever feel judged,
or if anyone ever judges you for that, tell them
to go judge Moses because he wasn't raised Jewish. Neither.
Speaker 3 (56:33):
How about that?
Speaker 9 (56:35):
Just little things like that.
Speaker 1 (56:37):
That's a good story. So I was like, when someone
finds something to believe in. But I wonder, I mean
where I'm where my where? I wonders? You know, when
you accept one really radical ideology, you go on to
(56:59):
another and another, and every time, you know, so like
when you find your family in Skinheads, then you find
your family in AA and then you find your family
in Judaism, And it's always like, you know, every every
kind of development is like the perfect, perfect answer, the
(57:20):
perfect solution. Are you still asking the necessary skeptical questions?
Where does that come in? And where? And do you
fear that you'll do you fear that you'll be brought
into something destructive or that you'll go from kind of
one radical ideology to the next without the necessary skepticism.
(57:44):
So that is now Alison Max's husband, And where the
podcast doesn't talk about, which I thought was really curious,
is her relationship to Judaism. She clearly had a Jewish
wedding and is she a practicing Jew? I would think
thinks she would have to be or not? Now did
she convert? That was unclear, but it seems like in
(58:10):
this podcast that she is. We're going to be hearing
more from Alison Mack, that this is the beginning of
her being a really public person. And she talks about again,
I talked about this yesterday, I'll talk about it again.
She talks about how she thinks maybe she should just
play it small because she won't hurt anybody. But then
(58:30):
there's sort of like a pause like, but I want
to do great things. She wants to do big things.
And I think there's going to be more documentaries and
more of Alison Mack and explaining and trying to explaining
herself and trying to revitalize her image and remake her image,
(58:52):
and also as and rewrite the next same story. What's
the most disturbing to me about this story is just
the or one of the things that's most disturbing about
this podcast is how it takes everything and tumbles the
time of the timing of everything in favor of Alice
and Mack. That she just had some kind of grand
(59:17):
revelation during Keith Rnai's trial or before Keith Rnari's trial,
and had to make some big decision about pleading guilty
when they'd all pled out, they'd all pled out very
early on into this case, So she saved herself, and
I think you can't blame her for wanting to save
herself and do the best thing for herself. Once Nancy
(59:38):
Salisman went down, the number two went down and pled
out who was the second most culpable in this story
besides Keith Rinary. So it's Keith Renairy in the middle,
Nancy Salsman, and then you could look at maybe Alice
and Mack and Laurence Salsman is you know, and Claire
Brahman all very culpable in this case. But Nancy Salzman
(01:00:03):
could have been doing and Alison Mack was facing for
decades in prison and did twenty one months. I mean,
she got off very easy. And there's a part where
she talks about being in prison and getting out of prison,
and she's about to be released in like a month
or two, and she's sad that she has to leave
(01:00:25):
prison and face the real world. So I'm not sure exactly,
you know, it seems to be a lot of empathy
for herself and very little empathy for her victims. Any
empathy that she has for her victims immediately goes on herself. Well,
(01:00:47):
I suffered, I did all this, I took the cold showers.
I wore this kind of punishing brace around necklace around
my belly that would called a what is it called
the salise? Am I right about that? That had kind
(01:01:08):
of wires that went into my belly if I ate
too much? And and I was branded. And yes, no
one's arguing that you weren't a victim of Ranai, But
what is your part in? What's your part? And also
(01:01:29):
all the punishment that you delved out and all the
pain that you that you caused, and the fact that
she I don't know, she seems to have and this
is something the podcast points out, a blind spot around
how she is perceived. She doesn't understand that taking a
(01:01:50):
woman's course, that other students might not want her in
a women's a women's studies course, or or how she
thinks she's going to go forward with a degree in
social work and having that kind of control over other
people's lives and knowing her background, it may be may
(01:02:14):
turn to be problematic. That's what I would say. She
seems surprised that other students have a bad reaction to
her and feel unsafe in her presence knowing her history.
So that's what I have for today. Guys, please hit
the thumbs up, subscribe to the channel, share this episode.
(01:02:39):
Support the channel links are in this in every episode.
You can buy me a coffee, Venmo, Patreon, get access
to content you won't get anywhere else. I will be
back very shortly, always at six pm with a their
(01:03:00):
live stream. Have a great night everyone, Thanks so much
for listening.
Speaker 4 (01:03:17):
My check.
Speaker 10 (01:03:18):
Roberta strides through the static case true crime Gotham, where
the shadows play the place forwards to fold when a
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Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
And YC.
Speaker 10 (01:03:35):
Pole's truth Sharpest Knight Reverda exposing she's the anti froud Light,
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headphones blazing. She drops heavy artillery. Now we're just twisted meat,
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anti fraud light.
Speaker 2 (01:05:04):
No
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