March 22, 2025 • 34 mins
What is truth? This is a key question that is asked often. Dr. Bill Sappenfield takes us into the book of John to discover the confext of this famous question.
Learn the proper context, Bible history and current relevance.
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Learn the proper context, Bible history and current relevance.
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/success-made-to-last-legends--4302039/support.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
And welcome back to our success to significant series with
doctor Bill Sappenfield. This is taking place during Lent, but
Bill and I could argue that this is something that
could happen during any season of your life. We're asking
seven big questions and Bill, welcome back and start with
(00:31):
us this morning by putting things into context around John
eighteen thirty three.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Okay, here's a question that's very basic and it's the
story is it's leading up to the crucifixion. Jesus has
been arrested just after the Last Supper. We know this story.
Lots of people know this story. Jesus has the Last Supper,
(01:00):
he goes out to the garden of gath Simone and praise.
The temple leaders come out and arrest him there, and
they want to Jesus to be executed, but they don't
have the authority to execute him. They're just religious leaders.
So the authority to execute him is held by the
(01:23):
Roman governor, Pontius Pilot. So they wait at the High
Priest's house overnight and in the morning, when the governor's
office opens for business, they take him to Pontius Pilot.
And they want to make Jesus sound dangerous so they say,
this man's claiming to be a king, and the pilot
(01:45):
said he'd like to talk to Jesus calls him out
there and says, well, are you a king or not?
And Jesus doesn't deny it, but he says, my kingdom
is not of this world. Those who listen to my
voice follow them. No, those who listen to the truth
(02:05):
follow me. And Pilot asked a very important question, which
is what is truth? So Jesus says his authority comes
from truth, and Pilot says what is truth? And we
have to agree what truth is before we can continue
(02:25):
to make our any headway in our conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
That having been said, that's our This is our fifth
question to my recollection, and what we're gonna attempt to
do is discuss, intellectually debate this and Bill, in your opinion,
how has this question what is truth? Been examined historically,
(02:52):
both in religious and philosophical context.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
We had a big turnaround after what's called the Renaissance.
That was when we had something that, if you want
to look it up on Google, called the Enlightenment, and
all of the heavy hitting thinkers of the world said,
(03:16):
all of our trouble comes about because we don't agree
on what truth is. So let's come up with a
good definition of truth. So that invented, among other things,
the scientific method, which is a very good thing, and
it gave us all sorts of good stuff like the Internet,
and you know, now we have microwave ovens and there
(03:37):
are all sorts of good scientific things. But it kind
of reduced our notion of truth to something very specific.
We now equate truth with something that can be measured
and observed, and that's a very good idea for the
(03:59):
scientific With it, however, we have a lot of trouble.
I say, Rick, do you love your family? And you
say yes? And I say, okay, how do you measure
and observe that? Are you going to tell me how
much money you spent raising your children as a way
of proving that you are that you love them? Do
(04:24):
you have integrity? How can you prove that? I want
it measured and asserted. And so if we can stand
over there with Pilot and say what is truth? You
can't really tell, then I can say anything is truth.
I don't like the way this person is acting and
(04:47):
he's telling me uncomfortable things about myself. Therefore what he's
saying is not true. Well, we know that won't work
because such things as gee, I don't really have enough
money in my bank account. That doesn't work for me.
So I'm going to go ahead and write a check anyway. No,
(05:11):
you know, you need to have that amount in your
bank account or it won't work. But at the same time,
I don't get to tell you that what you're saying
is a lie just because what I don't like what
you say, or I can't say, gee, that guy's a
(05:33):
fool and this is the worst time that we've ever
had in the history of the world. No, that's that's
not true. You have to actually say what is factual.
Maybe we ought to have different words. Maybe there ought
to be a word for factually verifiable on one hand,
(05:57):
and this deeply troubles me on the other hand.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, that's a very good point.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I read the other day Bill that over the course
of yours, in my lifetime, how we have shifted in
our sources of truth. And it showed this bar graph
from about nineteen forty five to today, and where we used
(06:27):
to get the truth, twenty percent of Americans were getting
it from church, and it shifted Over time, it was
church family, and then it went church family radio, church
Family TV, and then the Internet introduced in the late
eighties nineties. Today that number is seventy percent from the
(06:51):
Internet and two percent from church and TV is really
low as well, because we're missing the Walter Cronkotte believable
peace people.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Right. It's like it scared me from it. It shocked me,
not scared me.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It shocked me about where who are we listening to
for the truth? Please comment on that, because that kind
of handles that question on truth as being subjective.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
When we started in with the Internet and social media,
of the gifts that that was giving us were touted
because we would have such a wide variety of things
that we could draw from and we could specialize and
you know, I like to look at pictures of baby
elephants on Facebook, and so I get to any time
(07:44):
I want to, and people who aren't interested don't have
to do that. But on the other hand, the big
blow that that delta society is I don't have to
listen to anybody I don't agree with. Community is much
larger because of the Internet, and so I can pick
(08:06):
out the people that I agree with, and people I
don't agree with if they say something wrong, than me
and all my buddies on the internet can roll our
eyes and just shake our head, not actually contradict anything
they say or questioned the history. All you have to
do is just say, well, you know how they are,
and they're like, yeah, they're so stupid, and then we
(08:31):
all agree. And so that's really had a strong impact
that Surprisingly, this is counterintuitive, but in many ways that's
divided us more rather than bringing us together, because we
can simply dismiss people we just who make us uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, that's right, Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
And speaking of that, we're going to talk about modern
application of all this in a world often divided by
conflicting narratives, How can that question what is truth? Start
to inform our approach to a common sensical dialogue?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Just getting our terms straight? When I oh, here's one
that always surprises me. FBI statistics indicate that violent crime
has been in a steady decline since the nineteen nineties.
(09:40):
And okay, that's verifiably objectively true. But when you talk
to people, they say, well, that must not be true,
because I'm more scared than I used to be, and
if I'm more scared than I used to be, that
means crimes up. Well, it doesn't mean crimes up. On
(10:00):
the other hand, you don't believe the verifiable, objective statistics.
You just what's the overriding truth to you is I'm
more scared to go outside it in the world, and
that's what's wrong. I see things that trouble me. I
(10:21):
think people have bad taste. Therefore they must have, you know,
poor morals. Or back in our day when we were
in high school, it was kids have their hair longer
than they used to, they must be communists.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
But today some other yeah, go ahead, they were a communists.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Well okay, see there you go, and now we can
say they are communists and that's bad. But other people
are saying no, actually, we kind of.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Like, yeah, that's so funny. It's true. That's right. I
was gonna say that's true, but I can't say that right.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, only if you have we say two different things
are true in two different senses. I can think things
are terribly important, but I can't don't necessarily have to
justify them with something that's objective and verifiable. And because
(11:22):
of the Enlightenment, we try to make things objective and
verifiable as a way to get them to be taken seriously.
So we have people who read the Bible and they
want to talk about things like, well, don't you think
that there are archaeological discoveries that prove that these things
(11:44):
really happened? And I want to come up with an objective,
verifiable statement about how God created the earth so I
can prove that God created it. And I would say, gee,
that doesn't make creation important to me. What makes creation
(12:06):
important to me is how do I live in creation?
Not so much how did God create the world, but
why did God create the world? And what's my part
in it? And again, I can't come up with scientific
evidence of why God wanted to do that and what
my part in the creation is, so taking it seriously
(12:32):
doesn't mean I need to come up with scientific facts
about it. And because we say truth equal scientific facts,
we quite often go barking up the wrong tree.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
That's where we get into the danger zone.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Okay, thanks doctor Bill on that, and listen, we're now
going to go to our Bible trivia portion.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And ever since we started this series, Sappenfield has me
going down some rabbit.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Holes and the Bible that I've never discovered before one
of them was on.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
This character. And I'm going to ask doctor Sappenfield a question.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Uh, And then we're gonna unpacked this for a second.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
What does the word Hebrew's name?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Uh? The books of the Bible.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Usually are not included in the text of the Book
of the Bible, incidentally, but uh the uh uh. Three
of the four Gospels are start off with the word kata,
which means according to So the first book of the
New Testament is Kata, Mathion according to Matthew, Kata, Lukhan,
(13:58):
and so forth. And the letters are start off prose,
which means two. So this is, you know, to the Romans,
to the Galatians, and this book is to the Hebrews.
There is no person identifies himself in the text of
(14:24):
the Book of Hebrews. I was saying, you know, hi,
my name is such and such, and I'm writing this
to the Book of Hebrews. As a matter of fact,
you were talking earlier about the Barnabas, one of the
people in the Book of Acts. And there is a
tradition that started many years after Jesus that Barnabas was
(14:50):
the author of Hebrews.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
That's what I was.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I'm sorry I snipped into it.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
You think that's okay, that's okay. Let me let me
just take.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
This further down the rabbit hole because Bill has challenging
me on the side as we.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Plan these shows, why don't you talk about Barnabas today?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
And I go, well, I'm going to start with Hebrews,
which I found out meant those who crossed over.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And what I learned was that they've.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Passed from shadows to substance, from doubt to the reality
of faith. What once was the symbol has now become
substance for all the pictures of the Old Testament that
have now been found in their fulfillment in Jesus. And
then lo and behold, I read about this book talking
about what is the truth? I can't even pronounce the word.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Bill. It's e U S E B I U S
History Book six.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
And it says most recent scholarship on the writing to
the Hebrews has begun to question who wrote it and
speculates that it was written by Barnabus, Apolus, Priscilla, or
another one of Paul's close associates.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
See what you do to me, doctor Sappenfield you. You
drove me into some history book.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
That I've never heard of, And that's what the purpose
of this whole thing is about.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
It is like, become curious.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Keep your keep your ears open. The book that you
just mentioned there, you'll notice it starts with eu. Yes, sir,
So that's from a Greek word, which means good. And
anytime you see an English word that starts with eu,
usually pronounce a you. Uh. That's a Greek word. So
(16:43):
if you say good words about somebody who's died, that's
a eulogy. If you're feeling really good, you're you four
it uh and uh. The the the EU's always mean
something that's a good death is as a uh euthanasia.
(17:04):
I'm going to say, I want to say something good. Uh.
That usually pretty tacky, so I use a euphemism. And
so this writing that you just referred to, uh started
off with some good writings and uh. And it's possible
(17:25):
or some of the early traditions are that Barnabas participated
in that.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Very good and so we also found out this week
that Barnabas was supposedly called the encourager. Besides what I
wrote you this week, what's what are what are some
of the other secrets behind Barnabas and why he was
the encourager.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Well, the four Gospel writers all wrote the life and
words of Jesus, and I'm glad we have all four
of them because they all take different approaches and they
fill in gaps from the other leaves. But Luke wrote
a follow up. Not only did he write about what
Jesus did, he wrote how the apostles acted after Jesus
(18:15):
ascended into heaven. And since he wasn't very imaginative, that
book is called Acts of the Apostles. How did the
Apostles acts? I know, I'll write a book called Acts
of the Apostles. And so we meet Barnabas for the
first time in Acts, and he encourages people didn't trust Saul,
(18:42):
of course, who later became Paul because he persecuted Christians,
and Barnabas, the son of Encouragement, told the other people
in the community. No, no, let's give Paul a chance.
He's really an energetic guy, he's a smart guy. Let's
bring him into the community. And so we meet him
(19:04):
for the first time. Oh gosh, where is it. It's
somewhere early in the Book of Acts. Then the second
half of the Book of Acts, Paul makes three missionary journeys.
Now some people say there were four missionary journeys, but
only three are just really described. The fourth missionary journey
(19:30):
people speculate he made it putting together pieces of his letters.
He wrote a lot of these letters on his missionary
journeys and back to the communities that he started. So
it was either three or four. Paul was hard get along.
(19:51):
He really had firmly held opinions. He had his first
missionary journey accompanied by Barnabas. They left Antioch and they
traveled and established Christian communities, and on that journey, a
young companion that they had named John Mark got tired
(20:15):
of what was going on or whatever. Anyway, he left.
Later on, when they were going to go on a
second missionary journey, paula just said he wasn't going to
take John Mark, didn't trust him, and that was that
was it for for john Mark and Barnabas talked. Paul
(20:40):
said he was going to go with John Mark because
after all, he was an encourager, and he that's what
he did. He he and John Mark went off in
one direction and Paul went on another. So Barnabas. Barnabas
was all for giving people another chance. He he got
Paul into the Christian community when the Christian community didn't
(21:06):
trust him, and then he stuck loyally to John Mark
even though he had to go make a separate trip
with John Mark and Paul went with Silas. Here's an
interesting fact that tells us something about Paul's personality. Nobody
made two missionary trips with Paul. Just make one and
(21:33):
that's enough.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
That is the truth, right, That's what we're centered on.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Hey, Bill, We're gonna wrap up the show with his
personal reflection section, And what I encourage you all to
do this week is to go into the book of
John and read read about what we're talking about today
is John eighteen thirty three and the interaction between Jesus
(22:08):
and Punches Pilot. And then we encourage you to reflect
on how has your own understanding of truth evolved through
your own faith journey and study of scripture. And let's
start with doctor Sappenfield on that Bill. As many times
as you've read John eighteen thirty three, when you die
(22:29):
back into it, how does this sort of settle with
you today in your own understanding of truth.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It's very difficult. I think we shorted ourselves as a
society when I'm glad we have the scientific method and
we need it. But truth can be more than facts
(23:01):
and verifiable things that we see now. At the same time,
we can turn around and go completely the other way
and anything that I feel strongly about that's the truth.
And we do ourselves a lot of harm that way.
Like I know for sure that climate change is not
(23:25):
real because it would be too hard to do anything
about it. Therefore, let's ignore it, and we just say
I dismiss that truth. It must not be true. I
could say, gee, Rick, have you considered taking the following
steps to improve your life? And you dismissed me and say, no,
(23:45):
I'm not going to do that. It would be too hard.
That must not be true. And so we can make
how we feel about things override what is objectively fact
based true. On the other hand, we can say it
has to be fact based for it to be important,
(24:07):
and that's simply not the case. There are lots of
things that are very important to us that we cannot verify.
We can change our minds about things that are fact based.
So something that is not important at one point in
our lives becomes important later on, and so that doesn't
(24:30):
mean our values have changed. That means how we live
out our values needs to change and grow.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Very well said, And as if we were in a
time capsule, if we were to send doctor Sappenfield back
in time two thousand years ago, if you could ask
Pilot a follow up question after we asked what is truth?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
What would that be?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Well, first I'd probably ask by didn't have indoor plumbing
because it had been a long night, and there I
am in the governor's palace, and that would be that
would be really grim. Uh. I would ask him what
he saw his uh, his responsibilities? Asked, he is like
(25:20):
so many politicians that we see today. He wanted to
keep that territory peaceful. He didn't want a revolution. These
religious leaders were really wanted this Jesus character did, and
he didn't want a lot of trouble. So he finally said, Okay,
(25:42):
you guys are just superstitious and this guy hasn't done
anything wrong. How about if I just have him beat
up and send him on his way. No, you you
got to kill him, Okay, go ahead and kill him.
And he saw this chief responsibility as not stirring up
(26:04):
trouble and taking the easiest path forward. I think we
see a lot of that. And our political leaders today
see what do you see as you know, how can
you preserve justice as this person who you don't like
really broken the law? Is this really against the constitution
(26:28):
that we say we are going to follow because we
value laws over individual's personalities. And they say, no, we're
going to do it because this will keep us in power.
This will get me elected. The most important thing is
not what's justified by law, but rather what will get
(26:48):
me elected. And Pilot wanted to keep his position of power,
and so that's what he did.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Shows compliance and didn't have a backbone to stand up.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
No, he just wanted to stay in power. And if
that sounds familiar, then perhaps we should worry that that
sounds familiar.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Yeah, history is truly repeating itself again and again and again.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I thank you, doctor Bill Sappenfield. We are really enjoying
this illuminating study. Next week is our sixth question. What
is that going to be?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
And how can our audience prepare?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Okay, the last question is comes after directly after Jesus' ministry,
which is you know, we we've marched through these questions
in chronological orders that come into Bible everywhere from the
Garden of Eden right up till now. So we have
(27:57):
the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, and then Luke writes this
second book, the Book of Acts, and the first chapter
tells the story of the ascension. Jesus goes off into
heaven because we got to do something with him. And
then the disciples are standing around looking up. Well, there
(28:21):
went Jesus. What do you think? And they look around
and there are these two men standing in her and well,
who are they? We've met them before on the story
of Easter Morning. There were the two men standing outside
the tomb. And they look and there are these two
men standing there, and they ask, hey, Ben of Gali,
(28:44):
why do you stand there staring up into heaven. Well,
that's a very good question. We've had Jesus's ministry, We've
had all of these questions of the history of God's people.
We've had miracles and understandings, and so now why are
we just standing here staring up at heaven? I'm thinking
(29:05):
about Jesus. I think we ought to ask that question
of ourselves far more often. Hey, Church. Why are you
just standing there staring up into Heaven? Didn't Jesus give
you some instructions? Don't you have some things to do?
So I think that that's about the best question we
can conclude all of this on is from Acts first chapter,
(29:32):
verses six through fourteen. Why do you stand looking up
toward Heaven?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Beautiful? We look forward to that.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And in the interim, we just want to send out
a special prayer to all you listeners out there that
you will be encouraged, that you will dive into the Word,
and that you will make it a part of your
daily practice. And we're not trying to sell anything here,
(30:03):
but I've been Bill knows this that I've been using
the Passion Translation Bible, which has really helped me understand
more about the Bible and the words that are there
that are there for our consumption and application.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
And so I you know, if if you don't have
a Bible, try the Passion Translation as a starting point.
And Bill, you wanted to say anything about that, No, No, that's.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Uh. That's one of the interesting things that has happened
in our lifetime. Uh. In English speaking history, we had
the the authorized version the King James Bible for many,
many years, and then we came up with the Revised
(30:56):
Standard version of the Bible, and that caused a lot
of people a lot of unhappiness because, okay, this is
challenging the Holy Scripture, written word God, and so if
we start with a new translation, then that must be
that mean that the old translation was bad somehow. But
(31:20):
now we have so completely turned away from that. The
more translations the better, and you can go into very
conservative bookstores and find as many translations of the Bible
as you want. Some translations of the Bible have four
or five translations just laid out side by side, and
(31:42):
we think it's great to have so many different translations.
So the thinking on whether or not it's good to
have different translations is quite different now than it used
to be. But there are just the ussion about what
principles do we have in translation, who gets priority the
(32:06):
target language or the source language, and all of those
things are quite interesting to discuss.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yes, sir, they are. That was a very wonderful neutral
statement on your mind. I love that, But you know,
it's like, I'll finish with this, but those who love
the truth will come out into the light and welcome
its exposure for the light will reveal that their fruitful
(32:35):
works were produced by God. And in the end this
I know as a child, I'm pursuing to know God
and to demonstrate His kingdom.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And I read God's word to help understand all that.
And as I approach seventy, I just I'm seeing and
hearing more things that I actually understand. And that's how
long it takes for me to for the word, to
think in and to apply it.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, that's beautiful, Rick, And again, boy, you wouldn't want
to reduce that search for understanding to nothing more than
facts and verification. You can find facts and verification pretty quickly,
(33:26):
but to find something his profound as truth, that's a
lifelong search.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Thank you, Bill, We love you, and we look forward
to our show with you next Tuesday, and folks, until then,
we wish you an enlightened journey on your way.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
To the pursuit of truth. Have great
And welcome back to our success to significant series with
doctor Bill Sappenfield. This is taking place during Lent, but
Bill and I could argue that this is something that
could happen during any season of your life. We're asking
seven big questions and Bill, welcome back and start with
(00:31):
us this morning by putting things into context around John
eighteen thirty three.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Okay, here's a question that's very basic and it's the
story is it's leading up to the crucifixion. Jesus has
been arrested just after the Last Supper. We know this story.
Lots of people know this story. Jesus has the Last Supper,
(01:00):
he goes out to the garden of gath Simone and praise.
The temple leaders come out and arrest him there, and
they want to Jesus to be executed, but they don't
have the authority to execute him. They're just religious leaders.
So the authority to execute him is held by the
(01:23):
Roman governor, Pontius Pilot. So they wait at the High
Priest's house overnight and in the morning, when the governor's
office opens for business, they take him to Pontius Pilot.
And they want to make Jesus sound dangerous so they say,
this man's claiming to be a king, and the pilot
(01:45):
said he'd like to talk to Jesus calls him out
there and says, well, are you a king or not?
And Jesus doesn't deny it, but he says, my kingdom
is not of this world. Those who listen to my
voice follow them. No, those who listen to the truth
(02:05):
follow me. And Pilot asked a very important question, which
is what is truth? So Jesus says his authority comes
from truth, and Pilot says what is truth? And we
have to agree what truth is before we can continue
(02:25):
to make our any headway in our conversation.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
That having been said, that's our This is our fifth
question to my recollection, and what we're gonna attempt to
do is discuss, intellectually debate this and Bill, in your opinion,
how has this question what is truth? Been examined historically,
(02:52):
both in religious and philosophical context.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
We had a big turnaround after what's called the Renaissance.
That was when we had something that, if you want
to look it up on Google, called the Enlightenment, and
all of the heavy hitting thinkers of the world said,
(03:16):
all of our trouble comes about because we don't agree
on what truth is. So let's come up with a
good definition of truth. So that invented, among other things,
the scientific method, which is a very good thing, and
it gave us all sorts of good stuff like the Internet,
and you know, now we have microwave ovens and there
(03:37):
are all sorts of good scientific things. But it kind
of reduced our notion of truth to something very specific.
We now equate truth with something that can be measured
and observed, and that's a very good idea for the
(03:59):
scientific With it, however, we have a lot of trouble.
I say, Rick, do you love your family? And you
say yes? And I say, okay, how do you measure
and observe that? Are you going to tell me how
much money you spent raising your children as a way
of proving that you are that you love them? Do
(04:24):
you have integrity? How can you prove that? I want
it measured and asserted. And so if we can stand
over there with Pilot and say what is truth? You
can't really tell, then I can say anything is truth.
I don't like the way this person is acting and
(04:47):
he's telling me uncomfortable things about myself. Therefore what he's
saying is not true. Well, we know that won't work
because such things as gee, I don't really have enough
money in my bank account. That doesn't work for me.
So I'm going to go ahead and write a check anyway. No,
(05:11):
you know, you need to have that amount in your
bank account or it won't work. But at the same time,
I don't get to tell you that what you're saying
is a lie just because what I don't like what
you say, or I can't say, gee, that guy's a
(05:33):
fool and this is the worst time that we've ever
had in the history of the world. No, that's that's
not true. You have to actually say what is factual.
Maybe we ought to have different words. Maybe there ought
to be a word for factually verifiable on one hand,
(05:57):
and this deeply troubles me on the other hand.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Yeah, that's a very good point.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
I read the other day Bill that over the course
of yours, in my lifetime, how we have shifted in
our sources of truth. And it showed this bar graph
from about nineteen forty five to today, and where we used
(06:27):
to get the truth, twenty percent of Americans were getting
it from church, and it shifted Over time, it was
church family, and then it went church family radio, church
Family TV, and then the Internet introduced in the late
eighties nineties. Today that number is seventy percent from the
(06:51):
Internet and two percent from church and TV is really
low as well, because we're missing the Walter Cronkotte believable
peace people.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
Right. It's like it scared me from it. It shocked me,
not scared me.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
It shocked me about where who are we listening to
for the truth? Please comment on that, because that kind
of handles that question on truth as being subjective.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
When we started in with the Internet and social media,
of the gifts that that was giving us were touted
because we would have such a wide variety of things
that we could draw from and we could specialize and
you know, I like to look at pictures of baby
elephants on Facebook, and so I get to any time
(07:44):
I want to, and people who aren't interested don't have
to do that. But on the other hand, the big
blow that that delta society is I don't have to
listen to anybody I don't agree with. Community is much
larger because of the Internet, and so I can pick
(08:06):
out the people that I agree with, and people I
don't agree with if they say something wrong, than me
and all my buddies on the internet can roll our
eyes and just shake our head, not actually contradict anything
they say or questioned the history. All you have to
do is just say, well, you know how they are,
and they're like, yeah, they're so stupid, and then we
(08:31):
all agree. And so that's really had a strong impact
that Surprisingly, this is counterintuitive, but in many ways that's
divided us more rather than bringing us together, because we
can simply dismiss people we just who make us uncomfortable.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
Yeah, that's right, Thank you for saying that.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
And speaking of that, we're going to talk about modern
application of all this in a world often divided by
conflicting narratives, How can that question what is truth? Start
to inform our approach to a common sensical dialogue?
Speaker 2 (09:18):
Just getting our terms straight? When I oh, here's one
that always surprises me. FBI statistics indicate that violent crime
has been in a steady decline since the nineteen nineties.
(09:40):
And okay, that's verifiably objectively true. But when you talk
to people, they say, well, that must not be true,
because I'm more scared than I used to be, and
if I'm more scared than I used to be, that
means crimes up. Well, it doesn't mean crimes up. On
(10:00):
the other hand, you don't believe the verifiable, objective statistics.
You just what's the overriding truth to you is I'm
more scared to go outside it in the world, and
that's what's wrong. I see things that trouble me. I
(10:21):
think people have bad taste. Therefore they must have, you know,
poor morals. Or back in our day when we were
in high school, it was kids have their hair longer
than they used to, they must be communists.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
But today some other yeah, go ahead, they were a communists.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Well okay, see there you go, and now we can
say they are communists and that's bad. But other people
are saying no, actually, we kind of.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Like, yeah, that's so funny. It's true. That's right. I
was gonna say that's true, but I can't say that right.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Well, only if you have we say two different things
are true in two different senses. I can think things
are terribly important, but I can't don't necessarily have to
justify them with something that's objective and verifiable. And because
(11:22):
of the Enlightenment, we try to make things objective and
verifiable as a way to get them to be taken seriously.
So we have people who read the Bible and they
want to talk about things like, well, don't you think
that there are archaeological discoveries that prove that these things
(11:44):
really happened? And I want to come up with an objective,
verifiable statement about how God created the earth so I
can prove that God created it. And I would say, gee,
that doesn't make creation important to me. What makes creation
(12:06):
important to me is how do I live in creation?
Not so much how did God create the world, but
why did God create the world? And what's my part
in it? And again, I can't come up with scientific
evidence of why God wanted to do that and what
my part in the creation is, so taking it seriously
(12:32):
doesn't mean I need to come up with scientific facts
about it. And because we say truth equal scientific facts,
we quite often go barking up the wrong tree.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
That's where we get into the danger zone.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Okay, thanks doctor Bill on that, and listen, we're now
going to go to our Bible trivia portion.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
And ever since we started this series, Sappenfield has me
going down some rabbit.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Holes and the Bible that I've never discovered before one
of them was on.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
This character. And I'm going to ask doctor Sappenfield a question.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Uh, And then we're gonna unpacked this for a second.
Speaker 3 (13:22):
What does the word Hebrew's name?
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Uh? The books of the Bible.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
Usually are not included in the text of the Book
of the Bible, incidentally, but uh the uh uh. Three
of the four Gospels are start off with the word kata,
which means according to So the first book of the
New Testament is Kata, Mathion according to Matthew, Kata, Lukhan,
(13:58):
and so forth. And the letters are start off prose,
which means two. So this is, you know, to the Romans,
to the Galatians, and this book is to the Hebrews.
There is no person identifies himself in the text of
(14:24):
the Book of Hebrews. I was saying, you know, hi,
my name is such and such, and I'm writing this
to the Book of Hebrews. As a matter of fact,
you were talking earlier about the Barnabas, one of the
people in the Book of Acts. And there is a
tradition that started many years after Jesus that Barnabas was
(14:50):
the author of Hebrews.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
That's what I was.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
I'm sorry I snipped into it.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
You think that's okay, that's okay. Let me let me
just take.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
This further down the rabbit hole because Bill has challenging
me on the side as we.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Plan these shows, why don't you talk about Barnabas today?
Speaker 1 (15:11):
And I go, well, I'm going to start with Hebrews,
which I found out meant those who crossed over.
Speaker 3 (15:18):
And what I learned was that they've.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Passed from shadows to substance, from doubt to the reality
of faith. What once was the symbol has now become
substance for all the pictures of the Old Testament that
have now been found in their fulfillment in Jesus. And
then lo and behold, I read about this book talking
about what is the truth? I can't even pronounce the word.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Bill. It's e U S E B I U S
History Book six.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
And it says most recent scholarship on the writing to
the Hebrews has begun to question who wrote it and
speculates that it was written by Barnabus, Apolus, Priscilla, or
another one of Paul's close associates.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
See what you do to me, doctor Sappenfield you. You
drove me into some history book.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
That I've never heard of, And that's what the purpose
of this whole thing is about.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
It is like, become curious.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
Keep your keep your ears open. The book that you
just mentioned there, you'll notice it starts with eu. Yes, sir,
So that's from a Greek word, which means good. And
anytime you see an English word that starts with eu,
usually pronounce a you. Uh. That's a Greek word. So
(16:43):
if you say good words about somebody who's died, that's
a eulogy. If you're feeling really good, you're you four
it uh and uh. The the the EU's always mean
something that's a good death is as a uh euthanasia.
(17:04):
I'm going to say, I want to say something good. Uh.
That usually pretty tacky, so I use a euphemism. And
so this writing that you just referred to, uh started
off with some good writings and uh. And it's possible
(17:25):
or some of the early traditions are that Barnabas participated
in that.
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Very good and so we also found out this week
that Barnabas was supposedly called the encourager. Besides what I
wrote you this week, what's what are what are some
of the other secrets behind Barnabas and why he was
the encourager.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Well, the four Gospel writers all wrote the life and
words of Jesus, and I'm glad we have all four
of them because they all take different approaches and they
fill in gaps from the other leaves. But Luke wrote
a follow up. Not only did he write about what
Jesus did, he wrote how the apostles acted after Jesus
(18:15):
ascended into heaven. And since he wasn't very imaginative, that
book is called Acts of the Apostles. How did the
Apostles acts? I know, I'll write a book called Acts
of the Apostles. And so we meet Barnabas for the
first time in Acts, and he encourages people didn't trust Saul,
(18:42):
of course, who later became Paul because he persecuted Christians,
and Barnabas, the son of Encouragement, told the other people
in the community. No, no, let's give Paul a chance.
He's really an energetic guy, he's a smart guy. Let's
bring him into the community. And so we meet him
(19:04):
for the first time. Oh gosh, where is it. It's
somewhere early in the Book of Acts. Then the second
half of the Book of Acts, Paul makes three missionary journeys.
Now some people say there were four missionary journeys, but
only three are just really described. The fourth missionary journey
(19:30):
people speculate he made it putting together pieces of his letters.
He wrote a lot of these letters on his missionary
journeys and back to the communities that he started. So
it was either three or four. Paul was hard get along.
(19:51):
He really had firmly held opinions. He had his first
missionary journey accompanied by Barnabas. They left Antioch and they
traveled and established Christian communities, and on that journey, a
young companion that they had named John Mark got tired
(20:15):
of what was going on or whatever. Anyway, he left.
Later on, when they were going to go on a
second missionary journey, paula just said he wasn't going to
take John Mark, didn't trust him, and that was that
was it for for john Mark and Barnabas talked. Paul
(20:40):
said he was going to go with John Mark because
after all, he was an encourager, and he that's what
he did. He he and John Mark went off in
one direction and Paul went on another. So Barnabas. Barnabas
was all for giving people another chance. He he got
Paul into the Christian community when the Christian community didn't
(21:06):
trust him, and then he stuck loyally to John Mark
even though he had to go make a separate trip
with John Mark and Paul went with Silas. Here's an
interesting fact that tells us something about Paul's personality. Nobody
made two missionary trips with Paul. Just make one and
(21:33):
that's enough.
Speaker 3 (21:39):
That is the truth, right, That's what we're centered on.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
Hey, Bill, We're gonna wrap up the show with his
personal reflection section, And what I encourage you all to
do this week is to go into the book of
John and read read about what we're talking about today
is John eighteen thirty three and the interaction between Jesus
(22:08):
and Punches Pilot. And then we encourage you to reflect
on how has your own understanding of truth evolved through
your own faith journey and study of scripture. And let's
start with doctor Sappenfield on that Bill. As many times
as you've read John eighteen thirty three, when you die
(22:29):
back into it, how does this sort of settle with
you today in your own understanding of truth.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
It's very difficult. I think we shorted ourselves as a
society when I'm glad we have the scientific method and
we need it. But truth can be more than facts
(23:01):
and verifiable things that we see now. At the same time,
we can turn around and go completely the other way
and anything that I feel strongly about that's the truth.
And we do ourselves a lot of harm that way.
Like I know for sure that climate change is not
(23:25):
real because it would be too hard to do anything
about it. Therefore, let's ignore it, and we just say
I dismiss that truth. It must not be true. I
could say, gee, Rick, have you considered taking the following
steps to improve your life? And you dismissed me and say, no,
(23:45):
I'm not going to do that. It would be too hard.
That must not be true. And so we can make
how we feel about things override what is objectively fact
based true. On the other hand, we can say it
has to be fact based for it to be important,
(24:07):
and that's simply not the case. There are lots of
things that are very important to us that we cannot verify.
We can change our minds about things that are fact based.
So something that is not important at one point in
our lives becomes important later on, and so that doesn't
(24:30):
mean our values have changed. That means how we live
out our values needs to change and grow.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Very well said, And as if we were in a
time capsule, if we were to send doctor Sappenfield back
in time two thousand years ago, if you could ask
Pilot a follow up question after we asked what is truth?
Speaker 3 (24:54):
What would that be?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
Well, first I'd probably ask by didn't have indoor plumbing
because it had been a long night, and there I
am in the governor's palace, and that would be that
would be really grim. Uh. I would ask him what
he saw his uh, his responsibilities? Asked, he is like
(25:20):
so many politicians that we see today. He wanted to
keep that territory peaceful. He didn't want a revolution. These
religious leaders were really wanted this Jesus character did, and
he didn't want a lot of trouble. So he finally said, Okay,
(25:42):
you guys are just superstitious and this guy hasn't done
anything wrong. How about if I just have him beat
up and send him on his way. No, you you
got to kill him, Okay, go ahead and kill him.
And he saw this chief responsibility as not stirring up
(26:04):
trouble and taking the easiest path forward. I think we
see a lot of that. And our political leaders today
see what do you see as you know, how can
you preserve justice as this person who you don't like
really broken the law? Is this really against the constitution
(26:28):
that we say we are going to follow because we
value laws over individual's personalities. And they say, no, we're
going to do it because this will keep us in power.
This will get me elected. The most important thing is
not what's justified by law, but rather what will get
(26:48):
me elected. And Pilot wanted to keep his position of power,
and so that's what he did.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
Shows compliance and didn't have a backbone to stand up.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
No, he just wanted to stay in power. And if
that sounds familiar, then perhaps we should worry that that
sounds familiar.
Speaker 3 (27:16):
Yeah, history is truly repeating itself again and again and again.
Speaker 1 (27:22):
I thank you, doctor Bill Sappenfield. We are really enjoying
this illuminating study. Next week is our sixth question. What
is that going to be?
Speaker 3 (27:33):
And how can our audience prepare?
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Okay, the last question is comes after directly after Jesus' ministry,
which is you know, we we've marched through these questions
in chronological orders that come into Bible everywhere from the
Garden of Eden right up till now. So we have
(27:57):
the Crucifixion and the Resurrection, and then Luke writes this
second book, the Book of Acts, and the first chapter
tells the story of the ascension. Jesus goes off into
heaven because we got to do something with him. And
then the disciples are standing around looking up. Well, there
(28:21):
went Jesus. What do you think? And they look around
and there are these two men standing in her and well,
who are they? We've met them before on the story
of Easter Morning. There were the two men standing outside
the tomb. And they look and there are these two
men standing there, and they ask, hey, Ben of Gali,
(28:44):
why do you stand there staring up into heaven. Well,
that's a very good question. We've had Jesus's ministry, We've
had all of these questions of the history of God's people.
We've had miracles and understandings, and so now why are
we just standing here staring up at heaven? I'm thinking
(29:05):
about Jesus. I think we ought to ask that question
of ourselves far more often. Hey, Church. Why are you
just standing there staring up into Heaven? Didn't Jesus give
you some instructions? Don't you have some things to do?
So I think that that's about the best question we
can conclude all of this on is from Acts first chapter,
(29:32):
verses six through fourteen. Why do you stand looking up
toward Heaven?
Speaker 3 (29:38):
Beautiful? We look forward to that.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And in the interim, we just want to send out
a special prayer to all you listeners out there that
you will be encouraged, that you will dive into the Word,
and that you will make it a part of your
daily practice. And we're not trying to sell anything here,
(30:03):
but I've been Bill knows this that I've been using
the Passion Translation Bible, which has really helped me understand
more about the Bible and the words that are there
that are there for our consumption and application.
Speaker 3 (30:20):
And so I you know, if if you don't have
a Bible, try the Passion Translation as a starting point.
And Bill, you wanted to say anything about that, No, No, that's.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Uh. That's one of the interesting things that has happened
in our lifetime. Uh. In English speaking history, we had
the the authorized version the King James Bible for many,
many years, and then we came up with the Revised
(30:56):
Standard version of the Bible, and that caused a lot
of people a lot of unhappiness because, okay, this is
challenging the Holy Scripture, written word God, and so if
we start with a new translation, then that must be
that mean that the old translation was bad somehow. But
(31:20):
now we have so completely turned away from that. The
more translations the better, and you can go into very
conservative bookstores and find as many translations of the Bible
as you want. Some translations of the Bible have four
or five translations just laid out side by side, and
(31:42):
we think it's great to have so many different translations.
So the thinking on whether or not it's good to
have different translations is quite different now than it used
to be. But there are just the ussion about what
principles do we have in translation, who gets priority the
(32:06):
target language or the source language, and all of those
things are quite interesting to discuss.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yes, sir, they are. That was a very wonderful neutral
statement on your mind. I love that, But you know,
it's like, I'll finish with this, but those who love
the truth will come out into the light and welcome
its exposure for the light will reveal that their fruitful
(32:35):
works were produced by God. And in the end this
I know as a child, I'm pursuing to know God
and to demonstrate His kingdom.
Speaker 3 (32:47):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
And I read God's word to help understand all that.
And as I approach seventy, I just I'm seeing and
hearing more things that I actually understand. And that's how
long it takes for me to for the word, to
think in and to apply it.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Well, that's beautiful, Rick, And again, boy, you wouldn't want
to reduce that search for understanding to nothing more than
facts and verification. You can find facts and verification pretty quickly,
(33:26):
but to find something his profound as truth, that's a
lifelong search.
Speaker 3 (33:33):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Thank you, Bill, We love you, and we look forward
to our show with you next Tuesday, and folks, until then,
we wish you an enlightened journey on your way.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
To the pursuit of truth. Have great
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