January 21, 2026 • 11 mins
Have you ever tried to talk about something that hurt you, only to walk away feeling guilty, confused, or ashamed? That’s not conflict. It’s DARVO. In this episode, I break down how DARVO works, why it’s so damaging, and how blame gets reversed so the person who speaks up becomes the problem. You’ll learn how to recognize this manipulation pattern, stop gaslighting yourself, and begin trusting your own perceptions again. If every hard conversation ends with you apologizing, this episode is for you.
#narcissist #narcissism #narcissistic #bordeline #borderlinepersonailtydisorder #Control #controlling #manipulation #manipulative #DARVO #argument #codependent #codependency #podcast #ashleyberges
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#narcissist #narcissism #narcissistic #bordeline #borderlinepersonailtydisorder #Control #controlling #manipulation #manipulative #DARVO #argument #codependent #codependency #podcast #ashleyberges
Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/the-ashley-berges-show--1272964/support.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
You're in a good place now. You are listening to
Perspectives with Ashley Burgess.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi, you're listening to the Ashley Burgess podcast. Are you
currently being darvoed in a relationship and don't even realize it?
Darvo is how blame gets reversed, and it's super damaging.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Let's discuss that today.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
If you've ever tried to talk to someone that's hurt
you and somehow ended up apologizing to them, you want
to watch this because this is going to help you
to not only understand what's happening, but also to defend yourself.
If every time you bring up a concern in a
relationship and the conversation flips, it escalates, or it falls apart,
and you walk away feeling confused, guilty, or ashamed, you
(00:42):
may experience something called darvo.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Darvo isn't conflict.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's not miscommunication, and it's not two people just seeing differently.
Darvo is a psychological defense and manipulation pattern that protects
one person from accountability by turning the other person in
the problem. Today, we're going to break that down in
today's podcast. What darvo actually is, how it shows up
(01:07):
in real relationships, Why it's so confusing and damaging the
type of people that actually use it, and how to
recognize it without gaslighting yourself. This isn't about labeling people.
It's about clarity and understanding and seeing things for what
they truly are, and understanding the situation you're in. So
(01:27):
what does DARVO stand for? First, darvo is an acronym
that describes a certain sequence. The D is deny as attack.
RVO is reverse victim and offender. Let's walk through each
part slowly. Okay, First off, deny When you bring up harm,
they actually deny it ever happening, or they deny the
actual impact.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
That it has. And I'll give you a few examples.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
That's not what I said, you're remembering things incorrectly, or
you're making a big deal about nothing. Denial isn't all
always that loud. Sometimes it can be subtle. They can
minimize things, they can deflect, they can rewrite their tone,
change their intent, and the goal is simple. If it
didn't happen, they don't have to take responsibility for it.
(02:13):
Second attack, when denial isn't enough, the tone shifts, so
now you're criticized for actually bringing it up. For example,
you're too sensitive. You always do this, Why are you
trying to start a fight with me today? Your character
becomes the issue. The way that you act becomes the issue,
no longer what they did. This is where the conversation
(02:34):
escalates pretty fast, because the focus moves from the behavior
to actually who you are. Thirdly, reverse victim and offender.
This is the most disorientating part of the situation. Suddenly
they become hurt, they are offended, and they're the victim,
and you, well, you're the aggressor. Now you're told you
(02:56):
attack them, You cause these problems.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You're abusive, you're an fair, you're cruel.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
And at this point, the original issue that you brought
up is no longer at all there.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
There's not even a remnants of it.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And so what darva looks like in real life is
very important because it's probably happening to you. If you're
in a relationship with someone that has narcissistic tendencies or
is full blown narcissistic or even covert or overt narcissism,
you are definitely dealing with this on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So what does darva look like in real life?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, when you yelled at me in front of the others,
This is an example. It really hurts. So you get upset,
somebody yells at you in front of other people. You
say something, and their response is going to be in
the denial, I didn't nail, you're exaggerating, I didn't raise
my voice. The attack is going to be you're always
trying to make me look bad. The reverse is you're
(03:50):
the one embarrassing me by actually bringing this up because
it's not a big deal. So now think about what
happens next. Your pain is never addressed. You're defending your tone,
you're defending your memory and your intention, and you feel
guilty for speaking up. And that's darvo. A good other
example is, for example, maybe you say I felt ignored
(04:13):
when he didn't respond or text me or respond to
my calls for several days. They may say, wow, so
now I'm not allowed to have a life, or you're
so controlling, you're always trying to control me, or you're
always accusing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Me of something.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Now they become the victim of your unreasonable expectations of
getting a call or a text back within a certain
specific type of time.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And why is darvo so confusing?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Darvo is very powerful, especially against the empathic person or
the reflective person or the person that looks within themselves.
And the reason for that is because when we are
reflective on our own situations, when we have empathy and
we care about others, and when we actually think about
what we're doing and actually all ourselves to a higher standard,
(05:02):
we self examine. We care about fairness and our relationships.
We want things to be fair and balance. We don't
want to hurt others, and we're willing to actually take
responsibility for our actions. So when someone flips the script,
your instinct is, maybe I said it wrong, maybe I
should explain better, maybe I overreacted, And so DARVO exploits
(05:25):
the impath. So think about it and instead of us
asking why am I being blamed? Right, you asked what
did I do wrong? And DARVO reinforces codependent behavior. For
all of my clients who are in codependent recovery, we
don't want to deal with DARVO.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Because they can, you know, reinforce this behavior.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
We're trying to get passed, and so I want you
to realize when you're dealing with DARVO. Over time, the
questions of what did I do wrong? Leads to chronic
self doubt. It leads to walking on eggshells, emotional exhaustion,
lost to trust in your own perception and your own
gut feeling. And this is how gaslighting takes root. Okay,
(06:09):
not through one big situation, but repeated DARVO experiences of
role reversal. This is what we need to really think about.
This is what we need to analyze, This is what
we need to be aware of. So who uses darvu? Well,
DARVO is not a diagnosis. It's a behavior pattern. But
it's commonly used by people who can't tolerate shame, who
(06:31):
see his accountability as a threat, and who want to
protect their identity at all costs. This includes narcissistic personalities,
malignant narcissistic personalities, antagonistic type traits, people that are emotionally
abusive of their partners and others, people who want power
and control. So we can all be defensive at sometimes
(06:53):
that's not what we're talking about here. The difference between
being defensive and darvo is that it's consistent, it's pattern,
It benefits the same person over and over again, and
it never leads to repair, and it never leads to
repairing of the situation that took place. I was at
the beginning of this conversation. Healthy defensiveness will calm down something.
DARVO will just escalate it into another situation. So darvo
(07:18):
versus healthy conflict. What does that look like? Let's compare it.
A healthy conflict sounds like I didn't realize that I
hurt you, or I'm feeling defensive, but I want to
understand you better.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Can we talk about what happened?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
There's obvious discomfort, but there's also interest in getting to
know what the other person's feeling and try to help them.
Darvo sounds more like you're attacking me, You're the problem.
Why are you always doing this? There's no wanting to
hear your side. It's only protection of them. Healthy people
can tolerate being wrong. Darvo exists to avoid that feeling
(07:54):
at all costs. The psychological cost of darvo is interesting.
When darbo is repeated over time, it creates self silencing, hypervigilance,
emotional numbness, and confusion about what's normal. You stop bringing
things up, you stop trusting your reactions, You shrink to
keep the peace. You're walking on eggshells, and that's the damage.
(08:17):
Darvo doesn't just avoid accountability, it trains the other person
to actually disappear. So how do we recognize it in
real time? Well, here's the simplest way to spot it.
Ask yourself, did my concern turn into a character attack
on me? If the answer is yes, think about it.
(08:37):
You don't need to argue facts, you don't need to
defend your tone, you don't need to convince them. And
this is something that you need to realize that you
need to recognize this and create a boundary around it. Realizing, Okay,
wait a second, this is not a conversation at all.
What you're gonna say is going to be turned against you,
and recognizing that and kind of stepping back and saying, hey,
(08:59):
I'll talk to you later about the situation. You know,
it's interesting because some thoughts here that you want to
think about if you're dealing with this in a relationship.
Is darvo is not miscommunication. It's not like this love
or passion about things. It's not a sign that you
need to be more thorough in your explanation. It's a
(09:21):
system of manipulation that protects one person, and it protects
that person by sacrificing the emotional reality of the other person.
Healthy relationships allow discomfort. Remember it's okay, to feel like discomfort.
Sometimes they allow repair and they allow accountability.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
If every hard.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Conversation ends with you feeling guilty, confused, or ashamed, that's
not growth, right, that's darvo And that's what I want
you to really think about, because when you get to
this point and you're dealing with this in a relationship,
we need to safeguard ourselves.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
We need to be aware of what's.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Going on because if there's no solution to these situations
over and over again, you are being darvoed.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
You are in the situation.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You need to pay attention to this manipulative and controlling
tactic and you need to set some boundaries in it.
And you also need to stop arguing into their favor
and seeing how you can actually put some boundaries around
that relationship. I hope that this podcast has helped you
and has enlightened you into a controlling and manipulative tactic
that is used so that you can safeguard yourself and
(10:34):
better look into all your relationships to see if you
are currently dealing with this right now. Also check out
the YouTube channel every week on life Coach Ashley Burgess.
Just go to YouTube and put in life Coach Ashley Burgess.
We put up several videos a week. Please let us
know what you're thinking. If you haven't already, please subscribe
to the YouTube channel and also subscribe to the podcast.
(10:54):
You know whether you're listening on Apple Podcasts or any
other streaming services. And also let us know of any
topics you'd like me for discussing, as well as anything
that you'd like me to talk about to more in
depth in a subject matter.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
I'm here to listen and very interested.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You can also check out the website at Ashleyburgess dot
com and you can go to that contact page, click
on that and send me an email and I will
respond asap. I hope that this is connected with you,
share with friends and family and anybody that you think
needs to hear this message. You've been listening to the
Ashley Burgess podcast. Have a great day.
You're in a good place now. You are listening to
Perspectives with Ashley Burgess.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Hi, you're listening to the Ashley Burgess podcast. Are you
currently being darvoed in a relationship and don't even realize it?
Darvo is how blame gets reversed, and it's super damaging.
Speaker 1 (00:19):
Let's discuss that today.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
If you've ever tried to talk to someone that's hurt
you and somehow ended up apologizing to them, you want
to watch this because this is going to help you
to not only understand what's happening, but also to defend yourself.
If every time you bring up a concern in a
relationship and the conversation flips, it escalates, or it falls apart,
and you walk away feeling confused, guilty, or ashamed, you
(00:42):
may experience something called darvo.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Darvo isn't conflict.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
It's not miscommunication, and it's not two people just seeing differently.
Darvo is a psychological defense and manipulation pattern that protects
one person from accountability by turning the other person in
the problem. Today, we're going to break that down in
today's podcast. What darvo actually is, how it shows up
(01:07):
in real relationships, Why it's so confusing and damaging the
type of people that actually use it, and how to
recognize it without gaslighting yourself. This isn't about labeling people.
It's about clarity and understanding and seeing things for what
they truly are, and understanding the situation you're in. So
(01:27):
what does DARVO stand for? First, darvo is an acronym
that describes a certain sequence. The D is deny as attack.
RVO is reverse victim and offender. Let's walk through each
part slowly. Okay, First off, deny When you bring up harm,
they actually deny it ever happening, or they deny the
actual impact.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
That it has. And I'll give you a few examples.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
That's not what I said, you're remembering things incorrectly, or
you're making a big deal about nothing. Denial isn't all
always that loud. Sometimes it can be subtle. They can
minimize things, they can deflect, they can rewrite their tone,
change their intent, and the goal is simple. If it
didn't happen, they don't have to take responsibility for it.
(02:13):
Second attack, when denial isn't enough, the tone shifts, so
now you're criticized for actually bringing it up. For example,
you're too sensitive. You always do this, Why are you
trying to start a fight with me today? Your character
becomes the issue. The way that you act becomes the issue,
no longer what they did. This is where the conversation
(02:34):
escalates pretty fast, because the focus moves from the behavior
to actually who you are. Thirdly, reverse victim and offender.
This is the most disorientating part of the situation. Suddenly
they become hurt, they are offended, and they're the victim,
and you, well, you're the aggressor. Now you're told you
(02:56):
attack them, You cause these problems.
Speaker 1 (02:58):
You're abusive, you're an fair, you're cruel.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
And at this point, the original issue that you brought
up is no longer at all there.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
There's not even a remnants of it.
Speaker 2 (03:08):
And so what darva looks like in real life is
very important because it's probably happening to you. If you're
in a relationship with someone that has narcissistic tendencies or
is full blown narcissistic or even covert or overt narcissism,
you are definitely dealing with this on a daily basis.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
So what does darva look like in real life?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Okay, when you yelled at me in front of the others,
This is an example. It really hurts. So you get upset,
somebody yells at you in front of other people. You
say something, and their response is going to be in
the denial, I didn't nail, you're exaggerating, I didn't raise
my voice. The attack is going to be you're always
trying to make me look bad. The reverse is you're
(03:50):
the one embarrassing me by actually bringing this up because
it's not a big deal. So now think about what
happens next. Your pain is never addressed. You're defending your tone,
you're defending your memory and your intention, and you feel
guilty for speaking up. And that's darvo. A good other
example is, for example, maybe you say I felt ignored
(04:13):
when he didn't respond or text me or respond to
my calls for several days. They may say, wow, so
now I'm not allowed to have a life, or you're
so controlling, you're always trying to control me, or you're
always accusing.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Me of something.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Now they become the victim of your unreasonable expectations of
getting a call or a text back within a certain
specific type of time.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
And why is darvo so confusing?
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Darvo is very powerful, especially against the empathic person or
the reflective person or the person that looks within themselves.
And the reason for that is because when we are
reflective on our own situations, when we have empathy and
we care about others, and when we actually think about
what we're doing and actually all ourselves to a higher standard,
(05:02):
we self examine. We care about fairness and our relationships.
We want things to be fair and balance. We don't
want to hurt others, and we're willing to actually take
responsibility for our actions. So when someone flips the script,
your instinct is, maybe I said it wrong, maybe I
should explain better, maybe I overreacted, And so DARVO exploits
(05:25):
the impath. So think about it and instead of us
asking why am I being blamed? Right, you asked what
did I do wrong? And DARVO reinforces codependent behavior. For
all of my clients who are in codependent recovery, we
don't want to deal with DARVO.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Because they can, you know, reinforce this behavior.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
We're trying to get passed, and so I want you
to realize when you're dealing with DARVO. Over time, the
questions of what did I do wrong? Leads to chronic
self doubt. It leads to walking on eggshells, emotional exhaustion,
lost to trust in your own perception and your own
gut feeling. And this is how gaslighting takes root. Okay,
(06:09):
not through one big situation, but repeated DARVO experiences of
role reversal. This is what we need to really think about.
This is what we need to analyze, This is what
we need to be aware of. So who uses darvu? Well,
DARVO is not a diagnosis. It's a behavior pattern. But
it's commonly used by people who can't tolerate shame, who
(06:31):
see his accountability as a threat, and who want to
protect their identity at all costs. This includes narcissistic personalities,
malignant narcissistic personalities, antagonistic type traits, people that are emotionally
abusive of their partners and others, people who want power
and control. So we can all be defensive at sometimes
(06:53):
that's not what we're talking about here. The difference between
being defensive and darvo is that it's consistent, it's pattern,
It benefits the same person over and over again, and
it never leads to repair, and it never leads to
repairing of the situation that took place. I was at
the beginning of this conversation. Healthy defensiveness will calm down something.
DARVO will just escalate it into another situation. So darvo
(07:18):
versus healthy conflict. What does that look like? Let's compare it.
A healthy conflict sounds like I didn't realize that I
hurt you, or I'm feeling defensive, but I want to
understand you better.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Can we talk about what happened?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
There's obvious discomfort, but there's also interest in getting to
know what the other person's feeling and try to help them.
Darvo sounds more like you're attacking me, You're the problem.
Why are you always doing this? There's no wanting to
hear your side. It's only protection of them. Healthy people
can tolerate being wrong. Darvo exists to avoid that feeling
(07:54):
at all costs. The psychological cost of darvo is interesting.
When darbo is repeated over time, it creates self silencing, hypervigilance,
emotional numbness, and confusion about what's normal. You stop bringing
things up, you stop trusting your reactions, You shrink to
keep the peace. You're walking on eggshells, and that's the damage.
(08:17):
Darvo doesn't just avoid accountability, it trains the other person
to actually disappear. So how do we recognize it in
real time? Well, here's the simplest way to spot it.
Ask yourself, did my concern turn into a character attack
on me? If the answer is yes, think about it.
(08:37):
You don't need to argue facts, you don't need to
defend your tone, you don't need to convince them. And
this is something that you need to realize that you
need to recognize this and create a boundary around it. Realizing, Okay,
wait a second, this is not a conversation at all.
What you're gonna say is going to be turned against you,
and recognizing that and kind of stepping back and saying, hey,
(08:59):
I'll talk to you later about the situation. You know,
it's interesting because some thoughts here that you want to
think about if you're dealing with this in a relationship.
Is darvo is not miscommunication. It's not like this love
or passion about things. It's not a sign that you
need to be more thorough in your explanation. It's a
(09:21):
system of manipulation that protects one person, and it protects
that person by sacrificing the emotional reality of the other person.
Healthy relationships allow discomfort. Remember it's okay, to feel like discomfort.
Sometimes they allow repair and they allow accountability.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
If every hard.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Conversation ends with you feeling guilty, confused, or ashamed, that's
not growth, right, that's darvo And that's what I want
you to really think about, because when you get to
this point and you're dealing with this in a relationship,
we need to safeguard ourselves.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
We need to be aware of what's.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
Going on because if there's no solution to these situations
over and over again, you are being darvoed.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
You are in the situation.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
You need to pay attention to this manipulative and controlling
tactic and you need to set some boundaries in it.
And you also need to stop arguing into their favor
and seeing how you can actually put some boundaries around
that relationship. I hope that this podcast has helped you
and has enlightened you into a controlling and manipulative tactic
that is used so that you can safeguard yourself and
(10:34):
better look into all your relationships to see if you
are currently dealing with this right now. Also check out
the YouTube channel every week on life Coach Ashley Burgess.
Just go to YouTube and put in life Coach Ashley Burgess.
We put up several videos a week. Please let us
know what you're thinking. If you haven't already, please subscribe
to the YouTube channel and also subscribe to the podcast.
(10:54):
You know whether you're listening on Apple Podcasts or any
other streaming services. And also let us know of any
topics you'd like me for discussing, as well as anything
that you'd like me to talk about to more in
depth in a subject matter.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
I'm here to listen and very interested.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
You can also check out the website at Ashleyburgess dot
com and you can go to that contact page, click
on that and send me an email and I will
respond asap. I hope that this is connected with you,
share with friends and family and anybody that you think
needs to hear this message. You've been listening to the
Ashley Burgess podcast. Have a great day.
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