Neal Veglio: From Radio Breakfast to a Podcast Revolution

Neal Veglio, founder of Podknows Podcasting, shares his journey from a nearly three-decade radio career to the evolving world of podcasting.

Having worked in radio since 1994, including stints with Global Radio and Capital FM in the UK, Veglio observed the increasing homogenization of radio networks in both the UK and the US. He noted a decline in local programming and a rise in syndicated content, a trend that ultimately led him to leave radio in 2018.

Veglio emphasized that the shift from radio to podcasting required him to "unlearn everything." He explained that traditional radio's "big showbiz" intros and lengthy segments, which were crucial for advertisers, do not translate well to the on-demand nature of podcasts. Early podcasting, he recalled, was a laborious process involving manual coding of RSS feeds and creating landing pages to explain content transfer to devices. The emergence of platforms like Libsyn revolutionized content distribution, making podcasting more accessible.

He highlighted the importance of planning and strategy in podcasting, noting that 92% of new podcasts fail due to a lack of sustainable content and proper preparation. Veglio criticized common interviewing mistakes, such as hosts failing to prepare adequately and asking vague, open-ended questions. He stressed that a good host must help their guest sound excellent by asking tough, direct questions.

Veglio also discussed the frequent failure of celebrity podcasts, attributing it to celebrities expecting the audience to adapt to them rather than understanding and meeting the audience's needs for humility and relatability. He believes that successful podcasters must be willing to let their guests take the spotlight.

Reflecting on his own podcast, "Podcasting Insights," Veglio admitted that he had misdirected it for two years, targeting hobbyists instead of business clients. He emphasized the importance of honesty and humility, even for experts, as it allows listeners to relate to mistakes and feel more comfortable with their own learning process.

Veglio concluded by highlighting the growing opportunities in podcasting for businesses, advocating for its adoption to reach new audiences through efficient delivery of both audio and video content. He finds direct engagement from listeners seeking collaboration to be a more enjoyable and effective lead generation method than traditional outbound marketing.




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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Podcasting since two thousand and five. This is the King
of Podcasts Radio Network, King of Podcasts dot com.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Do you know in the UK morning radio shows are
called breakfast shows.

Speaker 1 (00:17):
The King of Podcasts Radio Network proudly presents to the
Broadcasters podcast. Here is the King of Podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
I have a special guest interview here on the Broadcasters
podcast for this week, and I hope you'll really enjoy it.
We're going to get into that in just the one.
My guest on the week is neilw. He wrote Podnows
podcasting and the service does a lot when it comes
to production management, marketing and coaching for businesses, focusing on
transparent and effective podcasting strategies. But more importantly, he comes

(00:51):
from the world of British radio, UK radio, which is
very popular, okay, unlike where it is right now in
the US, where very homogenized.

Speaker 3 (01:00):
I mean, you know, there's some marginization.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Over there, but the way they do a radio over
there is just still different even today, and I may
bring a whole lot of talk about that. His name
is Neil Veglio, and we talk about the evolution of
radio because he worked in breakfast shows and mindations and
all in the nineties, all the way into transitioning into
podcasting earlier than I did, when we were still just

(01:25):
live streaming and we weren't necessarily recording these live streams yet.
But that was one thing that started coming across. Also
talked to a real radio legend there. That's what Neil
did when he first started on about if live streaming
and podcasting will catch on. He brings up that story
and then also the change of podcasting in general, which,
by the way, we talk more extensively about podcasting itself

(01:48):
when it comes to transition from audio archiving to the
big show of his intros and the presentation process. That
portion of the interview I have clipped out of this
interview and it's gonna be my Podcaster's Row series because
it's more intention in that area. Initially, the interview is
going to be more about for podcasting purposes. But the

(02:08):
thing was, we got so into the weeds of it
that I wanted to get into in the first place.
It was a portion of the interview that we did
went our ten minutes or fifteen minutes I think, so
there was a lot to cover there. But then the
bulk of what we also talked about was everything who
comes to radio to podcasting, and that area I thought
would fit really well on this program, So that's why

(02:29):
I decided to do that. But there is a two
part so separate from everything else, you'll get to hear
Neil here on this program and we go into the
whole area of his transition from radio to podcast and
get just to go into the nuances of it. And
then the Podcasters Row series, which will be coming out
later in November. You'll be able to go and catch

(02:50):
that episode on my Podcasters Row series. But all this
content is at Kingopodcasts dot com. Now, before I hit
the interview, a couple of things that did come across
that I thought would be.

Speaker 3 (03:00):
Important because it's a light newsweek.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
The Billboard charts continue to go ahead and make changes
right now with the recurring roles, no rap songs and
the Billboard Hot one hundred top forty for the first
time since nineteen ninety. That's amazing. Now what we had
was before you know, this particular thing happened. We didn't

(03:24):
have Luthor to hit number one for thirteen weeks last
year and now has fallen off the Hot one hundred
because of the recurrency roles. But now it's changed because
of the fact that the highest ranking rap song was
the fined as a song being eligible for charting on

(03:45):
Billboard's Hot Rap Songs listing that is able to get
up to the chart. The highest ranking song right now
is young Boy Never Broke against Shot Calling at number
forty four. Cardi B has Safe Killanne, and Big Extra
Plugs Hell at Night featuring on El Langley also ranked

(04:06):
in the forties at forty eight and forty nine. Those
three songs are in the top fifty, but nothing in
the top forty since nineteen ninety. And I'm just think
of the plethora of hip hop artists that have made
their way across that barrier and the fact we don't
even have any songs in the top ten. It's a
telling sign about hip hop in general this year that

(04:26):
it just has not done well ever since the Wold
Kendrick Lamar Drake feud of last year, which we covered
pretty well. It's like everything died off. No one else
is jumping into that space right now. That is concerning,
And like I said, the last time we had no

(04:47):
songs in the top forty was February second, nineteen ninety.
The top ranking rap song was bismar Key's Just a Friend.
It climbed up to number forty one on the chart,
and then it would go to the number twenty nine,
and and then again there has never been in thirty
five years, eight months, three weeks there was at least
one song on the top forty for rap and talk

(05:09):
about for rap in nineteen ninety when that wasn't even
a format yet. It wasn't even a standalone format and
let alone most urban contemporary stations. They didn't want to
go and play rap right away, Like you know, at
nineteen ninety, you'd have stations that would basically be relegated
to playing it at night. I mean down here while

(05:30):
I was that nine of nine jams, they would play
it Friday and Saturday nights, and that was like after
ten o'clock or eleven o'clock. They didn't play it in
the middle of the day because R and B was
so prominent in the first place. But the second part
was that change to go into rap, even the fact
that we had stations that, you know, if it was
pop or whatever, that if there was a song that

(05:51):
had a rap verse in it, many pop stations wouldn't
even play it. They were just going cut it out.
You had to have versions without rap, which is amazing,
but that was the way that things were now But
here we are thirty five years later and that happens.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (06:05):
The other story I wanted to bring up Ascabiami and
so can the performance Reyalty of Organizations now have defined
a partially AI generator. A musical work now is one
that combines elements of AI generated musical content with music
elements of human authorship. So very updating policies to accept
registrations and musical compositions partially generated using AI, and the

(06:27):
works will now be registered directly within those individual societies.
A couple of interesting stories that come off of that,
all right, and that's all I wanted to go and
bring up there. Now it's time to go and go
to my interview with Neil Veglio and stand by. I
have a nice little introduction for all of you. So
doing me right now on the program. I'm here with
let's say, King of Podcasts, meeting with the pod Master. So,

(06:51):
my guess is a highly experienced audio content strategist and
consultant career spending early three decades. He's the founder of
pod No's podcasting focusing on creating strategic results driven podcasts
delivering measurable ROI for clients. His career goes back and
we'll talk about that all but again over thirty years,
like myself and media and so much more.

Speaker 3 (07:11):
We're going to get into all that.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
He's also the host of the industry podcast Podcasting Insights.
He's a independent podcast awards judge and sponsor. From here
with Neil Valio Neil picture of me.

Speaker 4 (07:21):
On Jorge's Pleasure. Thanks so much for inviting me on
the show.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
So before we got on here, we were talking about
the fact that you in the UK have been on
some kind of radio work, either on behind the scenes
or on air since nineteen ninety four. You hosted radio
networks for the likes of Global Radio and Jack UK.
So you worked at Capital FM, and that's a station
that I mean for many years I really did enjoy

(07:46):
because of the fact that BBC Radio just had like
a certain stance to themselves dominant. And the one thing
is I always pay attention to what's going on in
the UK because always when it comes to music and radio,
the music pulse in London is so good because when
it comes to EDM, when it comes to rock, when
it comes to pot, when it comes to soul or rap,

(08:06):
whatever it is. That there's a good diversity of music
over there, and it's reflected on the official chart over there,
which is the Billboard of the UK. And I follow
the chart show there from BBC.

Speaker 3 (08:18):
What do you one?

Speaker 2 (08:18):
I mean going back ten years until he did a
thing also where they you know, had it where I
can listen to it on demand, and then they got
rid of it because BBC just does things like that.

Speaker 3 (08:26):
They want to put everything by on a pay wall.

Speaker 2 (08:29):
Oh it's Governor Home, but no, no, we gotta make you
pay fees. We're gonna make you pay this. And then
and in the US, oh no, we got to find
some work around on VPN to go listen to it
whatever it is. But Neil, you worked, you know, in
the area from radio into podcasting.

Speaker 4 (08:41):
So funny you saying about Radio one and how you
listen to the chart there. So my boss was Bruno
Brooks in the eighties, the big Top forty DJ.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
He was the one.

Speaker 4 (08:51):
I mean, yeah, I just saw him on He just
showed up on TikTok the other day. Actually an old
classic clip him and Steve Wright, Oh host it as
she stayed BBC BBC one's Top of.

Speaker 2 (09:02):
The Little I got the understanding because on YouTube somebody's
posted some of those Top of the Pop story of
and I've watched as many of them as possible, from
seventy six to ninety I've seen them all.

Speaker 4 (09:11):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean massive, massive people. I mean this
is why good talent. Top of the Pops is featured
in Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody movie because it was such an
iconic show for making and breaking bands and talent. And
you know, it was the one show that it didn't
matter how big I mean Madonna, even if she was
on a on a video feed, she would be on

(09:33):
top of them.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
Oh she was on stage, Actually she was on They
did once.

Speaker 2 (09:37):
Yeah, they really managed.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
They managed to get at the start of their career.

Speaker 3 (09:41):
It was great.

Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, yeah, it made her.

Speaker 4 (09:44):
And this is the thing, it was the one show
that the pop stars absolutely would never turn down because
they knew it would make or break them in the
UK market, which they obviously wanted to do.

Speaker 2 (09:54):
And they shouldn't. You should be you should have brought
it back. All the all the attempts, all the rumors,
he said, oh, we might bring it back.

Speaker 3 (09:59):
They should.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
We need to show like that now. And by the way,
for American listeners, American bansying as are basically the same
kind of idea as Top of the Pops. But Top
of the Pops just took it on the level. Don't
get me wrong, Dick Clark an icon of mind. But
the show was just so much different than what it was.

Speaker 3 (10:15):
Were there just thing like that?

Speaker 4 (10:16):
But it was also really cringe though. I mean the
fact that, I mean they cover this in Bohemian rhaps
Today that Freddie Mercury got incensed because they said to him, no, no,
we don't do live singing on this show. This is
all mind. Oh, this is all it's all mine. So
it's literally they play the track off of you know,
back then it would have been a vinyl record obviously, but.

Speaker 2 (10:35):
They played the track.

Speaker 4 (10:36):
The studio track recording would be played and they would
dance and mine to it. And there's a famous video
of Rod Stewart and the Small Faces being on Top
of the Pops so annoyed that they weren't allowed to
sing live.

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Did they play football in the middle of the performance.

Speaker 4 (10:53):
It's crazy, but it was still even despite all this,
it was an iconic show. And so yeah, getting the
opportunity to work with Bruno Brooks obviously I don't I'm
sure I don't need to tell you.

Speaker 3 (11:06):
What a charistal presenter as well. By the way, Yeah
he was great.

Speaker 4 (11:08):
Yeah he was a chart He was alredly a one
top forty chart show presenter for three or four years.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Mark Goodier took over from him when he retired. Bruno,
by his own admission, I used to have a lot
of chats with him actually, because you would, you would.

Speaker 4 (11:22):
You absorb these guys like a sponge when you get
a chance to meet them. And you know, Bruno, interestingly
never really thought he was that great. That's the really
interesting part of this is that he thought he was
an okay jock at best. And so that's why as
soon as you know he made his money and built
his own business, he shrunk away from the limelight. He

(11:42):
didn't want it anymore. He was just quite happy being
the guy behind the scenes. So I worked with Bruno
for the best part of two years, and the big win,
the big learning moment I got from him. He always
used to say to me different, not dangerous. That was
his motto, and that was kind of how he stayed
in check with the REGs. You know, he never got
and he finds all that sort of stuff. He was

(12:03):
really he was good at being inventive and creative. But
without doing Howard Stern thing and going over the line,
he just was missed a friendly And I'll.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
Tell you in yours part, in your part, Neil doing
those morning shows, I can imagine, Uh well it.

Speaker 3 (12:18):
Was always was it always called the morning show.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
I always forgot there was always another way to call
morning show.

Speaker 3 (12:21):
But I forget what it's calling now. Breakfast show.

Speaker 2 (12:23):
Yes, breakfast breakfast show. Oh, yes, that's what we call
them here. Yeah, breakfast shows.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
Yeah. Okay, I'll give you this other example.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
So I'm sure you had to speak with musicians on
the air and the waiting you get the best out
of them.

Speaker 3 (12:34):
Okay.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
There's a difference between what Ryan Seacrest os over here
where he's like tucking the dollars kumbay all like, oh,
you know, my in my music, I just feel like
there's a certain a certain attitude I have here and
my life and my romance and the breakups and my
depression as shut up.

Speaker 3 (12:48):
You know who does the great job over there.

Speaker 2 (12:49):
And I missed him on the Chart show now on
BBC Radio Scott Mills, who's on Radio two Now, Yeah,
he's great. He's entertaining him and his producer. They are
funny and the guy just got it. It was just
so it was like it was like blindfolded hands behind
his back. That guy could do a show.

Speaker 3 (13:07):
Yeah, whatever it was. And he does the breakfasthow over
there on Radio two. And I thought every time I heard.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
Him doing an interview with it was Billie Eilish or
whoever else, like think our Ed Shearon. He was like, okay,
Ed Shearon, let's talk soccer and Billy age, talking about
the music and talking about her brother and all that stuff,
and just he had a good way of like making
fun with it, you know, having like a little game
with somebody, and just made it feel a home And
I felt like I got the best of a him.

(13:30):
An early Tate McCree interview, I remember she was like
kind of like the the real like almost like an
Emo type of field tour in early music, but like
you just saw like something come out from her and like, Okay,
there's something more, some more personality. You're helping this girl
get noticed and she's just getting her song out there.
We don't really know about her except for one song,
and they're like, okay, here we go. But then if

(13:51):
I hear Ryan Seacrest sung going to Selena Gomez, oh
my god, just shoot me please, horrible and I and
the Jenny Gomes was funny because I heard her on
Ryan Seacrests and I'd heard her on Scott Mills. Scott
Mills just did ten times better because understanding your guest,
knowing how to go and get something out of them
so that you don't just get the same old interview

(14:11):
like everybody else's getting.

Speaker 4 (14:13):
Well, I'm going to say something very controversial here about
Ryan Seacrest because the point is that what a lot
of people don't realize is that, yeah, people say, well,
Ryan Seacrest, he started in radio two. But one a
lot of people don't realize is that before American Idol,
Ryan Seacrest hosted the worst show in his market and
he was about to be fired. If he hadn't got

(14:34):
American Idol, Ryan Seacrest would not have worked in radio
much longer.

Speaker 2 (14:38):
Believe me on that.

Speaker 4 (14:40):
And so now ironically, Ryan Seacrest is benefiting from his
American idol fame that literally boosts his radio profile. What
you're talking about was Scott Mills. That there's a reason
Scott Mills started in radio. But he started well, he
did good shows, yes, And so I've seen this more recently.
This is kind of why I walked away from radio,

(15:00):
to be honest, because I was seeing emerging as a
more frequent thing where instead of having radio experienced people
that had to prove their ability to build an audience
from scratch, they started going, well, no, we want people
with lots of followers. So they started looking at social
media and they started and now they look at YouTube
and TikTok. Now you can have a radio show from

(15:22):
being on a reality show and gaining you know, a
million followers on TikTok. It's just and then they wonder
why these people have guests come in and they don't
have an ability to interview them because they don't know
what an interview is. What they as far as they're concerned,
they're just so used to getting the likes and the
comments in their TikTok feed they think, oh, that's all
I need to do is just like talk about myself.

(15:44):
And so yeah, that that's a fundamental problem with you know,
Ryan Secrets for me represents.

Speaker 2 (15:51):
These horrible, horny incredible business band exquisitely. He learned from
Dick Clark. He basically diod the Dick Clark playbook. Kardashians
is his bread and butter. I don't know why he's
doing well a fortune, but listen, I'll give him all
the crime in the world. I respect the man because
he does make money. He is a yash cow on
the business side, nobsolutely, but a horrible talent. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:14):
Yeah, and this is the thing some people, you know,
I'll put myself in this category as well.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
I was.

Speaker 4 (16:21):
I was a good radio joke, right, I'll say that
I was good. I wasn't exceptional. I wasn't outstanding. There's
a reason that you've heard of Howard Stern and Scott Mills,
but you haven't heard of Neil Vellio's radio career because
it was literally just like I was the guy that
they would pay to go in look after a show
for a week a month. You know, I did have
a regular morning show, and I did well, and I

(16:42):
built audiences.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
I didn't suck, but I wasn't exceptional. Whole I wasn't
in general on twel don't push yourself like that because
journeymanute radio is a treasure. Listen Harry Nelson back of
the day in the seventies, I think of ron O'Brien,
back of the day in the seventies. I think of
Charlie van Dag. In the seventies and eighties, we had
great radio jocksa were journeyman. Oh can you go tell
you take care of somebody this vacation spot, like we're

(17:05):
gonna be gone for two weeks.

Speaker 3 (17:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:06):
Beaver Cleaver was another guy, was a great guy and
I get his real name, Ken something or other, but
either it's way. We had people that were like, okay,
they would go into a different market. It could be
in New York, La, San Diego, you know whatever, Miami,
and they'd come in for vacation. You be a journeyman,
fill in the spot and they would fill in it
and you'd feel like nothing was wrong. It was like, okay, area, Yeah, competent,

(17:27):
you're gonna be able to go and do this, and
you can jump right in immediately and you know, get
the vibe of the audience and get callers to call in.
Whatever it was so don't take away all that from there.
I'm just no, I'm not taking it away.

Speaker 4 (17:38):
But what I'm saying is that, you know, even at
my best when I was doing I mean, my, my, my,
probably my longest morning show is probably about three years,
and even at my best doing that, and trust me,
I went from you know, like fourth in the market
to first within a very short amount of time, so
you know, I knew I was doing. But what I
would say, in all honesty is the as good as

(18:00):
I was on the radio, I am a much better producer.
I'm a much better creator. I'm a much better ideas
man and strategist to make other people sound good. And
so that's kind of what I've leaned into, I think
is all the things that I learned to do as
a jot, I've got the benefit now of not only
having done them myself so I know they work, but

(18:22):
also that extra sort of layer of I can make
you do this, I can lead you, and I can
coach you to do this. And I think that's the
thing that people like Ryan Seacrest are probably best at
in terms of I can identify the other guy who's
the talent, tell him what to do, well, tell her
what to do. Like you say, the Kardashians. He's great

(18:43):
at setting up these stories where the Kardashians are in chaos,
brilliant at that. He just can't do it himself, you know.
And that's valid and there are many of us that
are like that as well. Bru like you mentioned, Bruno
is the same.

Speaker 3 (18:56):
But you know, how many.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
People do we know that are in podcasting now that
are hosts that they are their own producers, they're their
own people behind the scenes, They're doing all the work themselves.

Speaker 3 (19:04):
They're very competent at it.

Speaker 2 (19:05):
I think that's the one thing too, is that is
that the credibility I mean, just the level of talent
that you need to do a podcast. You don't have
to be like you need to be for television or
for radio for a national audience like that. Just I
mean then that intimate setting. Same thing goes from these
people that are followed to have followers either on TikTok
or Instagram or whatever else. I think that's the other
thing too, is that there's a related.

Speaker 3 (19:26):
To be aunty of the people. And the thing is
that if.

Speaker 2 (19:29):
You are competent enough to go and make sure that
everything is running smoothly, because you know, in podcasting, we
don't need a whole lot of people. We don't need
somebody handling the phones. We don't see somebody that's handling
you know, uh, producing for whatever kind of skitterer.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Segment's coming up next.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
None of that stuff.

Speaker 4 (19:43):
Sometimes I would argue that actually works in your favor.
If you are lower profile in podcasting, I would argue
that makes you better.

Speaker 2 (19:52):
You know that.

Speaker 4 (19:53):
Why do so many celebrity shows fail. It's because they
come in expecting the podcast audience to shift to what
they need them to be. But no podcast audiences were
here before you, buddy, you know what I mean. You've
got to start entertaining them where they want to be met.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
And this is the problem with celebrities.

Speaker 4 (20:12):
They come and going, well, I had the TV show,
or I'm a famous movie star, or I'm an ex
radio guy from the eighties or whatever it is that
they do. They come in and they want the audience
to be receptive to that. But actually, the joy of
podcasting is the curiosity. It's the humility, it's the understanding,
and it's the relatability. And this is something that like

(20:34):
celebrities can't possibly achieve. That they just can't. And I
mean Taylor Swift is a perfect example of this.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
What happens.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
She goes on the first ever podcast, she goes on,
tanks her career. She's got haters. Now, how did that happen?
How does she get.

Speaker 4 (20:49):
From being beloved to being canceled in less than a
month because she went on a podcast and didn't know
how to talk to the audience.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Well, but also the thing was to say is there's
a lot of we're a lot of animositive vitual because
of the fact that, oh she's on there with her
boyfriend now her fiance and all this oh I gotta
new album, I mean promotional machine, and it's like yeah,
but it's it's like, you know, I don't even know
anybody that really listens to any celebrity podcast the ones

(21:17):
that are like all listened up on the Apple Podcasts
Top one hundred, whatever it is. I mean, I can't
tell you any of those that are out there that
have either actors or somebody else's like, you know, some
form of late night show host whatever it is. I
don't listen to those shows and that fun and the
clips are not even that good. But these people are
getting paid a lot. They're going to be on there

(21:38):
for whatever reason. It's the whole thing after COVID. That's
what also didn't help out was that when all these
people were kind of like gotta work and it's like, oh,
they're stuck at home, then what are they gonna do?
Then they all kind of like stuck around and did
this kind of work. So it's like you have a
couple of these shows that are out there.

Speaker 3 (21:51):
I don't know, man.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
I mean, for one thing is you're also guessed intensive.
I want to give to that part because every podcaster,
for the most part, wants to be guess sentences, even
from what I do now, the podcasters real series or
broadcasters podcasts, you know, broadcasters podcasts. I first started doing,
it was all a lot of guest interviews, and the
was like I'm gonna go monologue now, And I've changed
the approach of the show, but like all my stuff

(22:13):
is almost always monologue, and if I have guests, it's
like I got a plethorater coming in. But I'm also
pigging who I get, Like I don't need to go
and get some list of who I need to go
and bring on. It's whoever comes in. Inbound. I will
talk to them and I'll make a great interview out
of them. I've done over thousands, Like I know what
I'm doing on this part, and I think that's part
where if you're a good podcaster, you know how to

(22:35):
go and do.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
Both absolutely, And it's not just about knowing how to
do it, it's about being willing to do it, that's
the thing. And a lot of these celebrities they're just
not willing to do the whole sitting back and letting
the guests be the star.

Speaker 2 (22:49):
I mean, I have to let ont producer be in
involved and have to like help Pea come up, no stop.
Dak Shephard is really good at this. Actually.

Speaker 4 (22:56):
You know a lot of people give Dax a lot
of grief about the way that he does his show
because he's got this whole weird dynamic with a producer
and you know, are they swingers?

Speaker 2 (23:05):
And where's Kristen? How does she feel about all this?

Speaker 4 (23:07):
But that aside, if you take that out of the equation,
what he's done is he's built a really cool safe
space for celebrities to come in and know that they're
going to get treated with respect and that he's going
to do a very like Joe Rogan does a very
curious podcast interview, and you know so many don't you know?

(23:28):
People give Joe a lot of grief as well. But
all he's doing is he's deem diving. He's coming with curiosity,
and a lot of these celebrities they just don't know
how to do that because they think they're the star
and they haven't figured out actually, podcasting is not about you.
Why do you think Mark Maron's had so much success
Because Mark Maron will tell his story. He'll do his

(23:48):
ten minute opener out the gate, then he brings his
guest in and then the stfus and he lets the
guest own the spotlight. That's literally what he does. And
he knows that his job is to get the stories
that nobody else has heard anywhere else. And that's that's
what these celebrities need to learn to do if they're
going to stick around.

Speaker 2 (24:06):
But let's be honest, I can't listen. I can't listen
to every program either, because, like for Joe Rogan, it's
like give me a name I'm hearing is like I
want to really have to listen, Like the last one
I just recently listened to Joe Rogan. I absolutely wanted
to hear.

Speaker 3 (24:17):
Was Loonel Richie.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
I was like, oh, that was a gold mine of
an interview because I was great because every clear I
kept seeing it was like, oh, this just funny stuff
in here, great stuff, and Lonel Richie is just like
a wealth of knowledge and wisdom many so.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
That was good.

Speaker 2 (24:30):
But it's like with Dak Sheppard, I can't listen to it,
by the way, because he butchered a movie called Chips,
which was a recreation of a TV show for the eighties,
and it was what I was like a childhood you know,
favored him unt and he butchered the hell that movie.
So it wasn't good. Oh tanked. But again a lot
of counties at that time were really bad. Now, yeah,
that was the part too. So I don't want to

(24:51):
always go guess intensive because I think, you know, to
keep that up, then you're also making your show selective,
your episode selective. But then again it's like, I don't know.
There's also a way where even when I do monologue
for shows, I got one show that I do that
I'll talk, I'll have it basically like a rotation. I
don't know if you ever watched the Morey show, Mari
Povid show over there in the UK.

Speaker 3 (25:10):
Have you heard of it?

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, we got Mari. Yeah, so you know he's on
the city for the Four Trenches of like what he does.
You are not the father the latter took the test.
I can do what I want. He's got his four things,
and I've kind of learned in a monologue that's kind
of like what I want to do based on the
magic that I have, that I might talk about one subject,
another subject, another subject and just ro take them all
in like a month. Yeah, both for you when you're

(25:34):
doing your own content. Okay, So for podcasting instights, I mean,
what is it that you do that you think would
be important to keep people.

Speaker 3 (25:41):
To go and keep listening the next time around, the
next time around, to.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Keep it infectious, to keep it where you're you want
to binge listen.

Speaker 4 (25:49):
I think, funny enough, my most recent episode really leans
into this. Actually, I did an episode you know that
I released on Friday where I talked about how I
just realized for the last two years my podcast has
been absolutely wrong. Everything I've been doing with the podcast
has been wrong. It's been the wrong, wrong material, It's

(26:09):
been for the wrong audience, and so I literally went
through the process of sharing my mindset on it, saying,
do you know what, I don't know who should be
listening to this show right now, because I've obviously been
putting out these punk but these insights around podcasting, which
in my view were for people that want to do
a podcast for their business because that's kind of what

(26:30):
I'm known for, but also the material kind of lends
itself to hobbyists as well, and so my goal is
not to get hobbyists listening, because, let's be honest and
frank about it, they're not my clients. Hobbyists are not
going to be paying me to consult with me to help.

Speaker 2 (26:46):
Them do their shows.

Speaker 4 (26:47):
So I actually ended up probably producing one of my
best ever episodes off the back of that because I
was being honest and saying, look, I screwed this up.
I'm the strategist, and I got my strategy wrong. So
now I've got to go back to the drawing board
and figure out number one, who's this show meant to
be for? And number two, what kind of content do

(27:08):
I need to make for this show so that you
will be engaged and keep coming back every week, right,
And I think that's that's kind of the point with it,
is that, you know, my intention has always been to
share my my you know, my wealth of experience from
as you say, twenty five years pretty much.

Speaker 2 (27:25):
That I've been doing this.

Speaker 4 (27:27):
You know what, what's the point of me doing it
unless I'm able to share the good and the bad.

Speaker 2 (27:32):
You know, we're not here to sugarcoat the experience.

Speaker 3 (27:34):
Here.

Speaker 4 (27:35):
People make mistakes all the time, and they go into
a shame spiral because oh my god, I mean I
booked the wrong RSS company, or I bought the wrong microphone,
or I didn't plan my opening enough or you know,
I got the wrong guests. They're going through this on
an almost weekly basis. So if we as these leaders

(27:56):
as we like to call ourselves, can say, do you
know what, we make mistakes too, We're not perfect, we're.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
Learning as we're going. Nobody's got all the answers here.

Speaker 4 (28:04):
I think that creates that space then where podcasters who
are ideal audiences are these sorts of shows are able
to go well, if they're getting it wrong, then it's
okay that I get it wrong as well.

Speaker 3 (28:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:18):
I also like the also like that idea of being
humble and just realizing, you know, you're not the You're
not the end. I'll be all the most perfect person
on podcasting. So nobody is humanizing yourself is a great idea,
I don't but I think also doing without breaking the
fourth ball. But that's also another peep of mine. I
want to go on the other area about when it

(28:38):
comes to radio stuff. So I mean we were talking
about before we got on and there's a homogenization.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
Of radio, so like radio is not doing any favors
right now.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
So yeah, you have different warning shows that are you know,
a couple of different same morning shows that all these
teachers are going to have not much variety to it.
They're all the mad capoo warning zoo type of field
to it that there was or that they're just way
too old to be doing it anymore, and it doesn't
fit any more of a narrative. And you know, it's
like it's just antiquated stories that might talk about, gossip,

(29:09):
they might talk about they just it's very sacrain a,
very it just watered down.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
It's horrible, and you.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
Know it's like, well, also the fact is that you're
still on the plane of the fact that radio sells
to come to play certain rules when it comes to
that language, when it comes to content and what you're
not allowed to do. But I still think there's a
room for radio. And this is just going in the
broadcaster sense that radio needs to find a thing, and
I think in the UK there's been in the UK

(29:36):
has done a.

Speaker 3 (29:37):
Better job of evolving.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
And transitioning into it, because at least your music radio
stations have not lost the point you still have live jocks.
I think that's something can be done here in America,
and I know there have been stations that will at
least one company ought to see this over here that
tried to go into something like that, where they were
trying to do they would have certain time slots with
the same host on all stations, so for the pop stations,

(30:00):
they had the same person doing that and it didn't
work for them.

Speaker 3 (30:04):
But it's like, I think you could.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Do something where if you wanted to have a national
format one station does everything with some local hosts embedded in.

Speaker 3 (30:12):
Local time slots.

Speaker 2 (30:14):
You could still do that here, But for what reason
they don't think they could do that now. It's like
iHeart Radio could be doing something like that. Listen you
want to go and cut down the amount of staffing
and the amount of man a man power you having there,
you know, because your private equity company wants to continue
to keep picking away and picking away at the resources
that you have. Fine, and you're building out your podcasting level.
That's great, Bob Pittman, thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (30:36):
And it's not his fault. I keep saying that now
because I used to blame it on him all the time.
But it's not his fault.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
iHeartRadio just has a problem where they just want to
keep picking away at what the traditional format was because
they're holding all this debt and they never did anything
with that debt. They're just allowed to go and have
it unless they go through you know, Bakercy like they did,
and even then didn't make them any better, didn't make
them any smarter. But you could create a local voice
on a national format.

Speaker 3 (30:58):
Do you believe that or no?

Speaker 2 (31:00):
Do you think that were I mean that's a UK
or not.

Speaker 4 (31:03):
They don't believe that in the UK because all the
local guys they got rid of them and made every
radio station in the UK national. Now we don't really
have apart from maybe three or four independents here and there,
you know, I was. I worked for the one of
the pew remaining independence in the JACKFM because although the
jack Off M brand is quite renowned in the US

(31:25):
and across Canada, of course in the UK, it wasn't
taken up as much as it was in those markets.
So we had maybe three JACKO they gradually we had five,
and it gradually little down to three. Then it was two,
and then it was one, and so the Oxford one
was the last remaining one. Even they couldn't survive with
their whole you know, franchise turnkey radio run cheaply format,

(31:49):
they couldn't keep it going. Bauer Media is the company
that came in and they bought all the remaining local
radio stations. So now you don't have local job you
just don't. You don't even have you know, local regional
mid morning shows or local regional morning shows.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
It's literally all national.

Speaker 4 (32:09):
And this is where I think they missed the trick
because their answer to this to streamline the money and
you know, the expenses and make sure that they could
keep pumping out radio. They've actually ignored podcasting, and I
think this was the win they could have had, you know,
instead of getting rid of all the locals, you know,
making them redundant, and then relying on just having big

(32:31):
national names on their stations but not thinking about, well,
where's the next wave of talent coming from. They just went, well,
we'll just pick them from TikTok or YouTube, which is
the wrong place to find them. And so for me,
I don't understand why these big companies like iHeartMedia Global
Bower don't just sort of say we need to get

(32:52):
local podcasting team set up so that these guys can
start plying their trade, learning on the ground and creating
us content that makes us stand out locally. They've ignored
it all and that for me is where you say
the UK still is doing it all right, I don't know,
I disagree on that. I think, if anything, the UK
is is probably worse off than the US now in

(33:14):
terms of that whole keeping radio alive and vibrant because
it's it's ninety five percent voice tracked, and frankly it
sounds terrible.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
You've got traffic jams being.

Speaker 4 (33:25):
Reported sixty miles away in most territories, do you know
what I mean?

Speaker 3 (33:28):
Right?

Speaker 2 (33:28):
But I mean I still think with okay, So like
for a BBC Radio one I know they get like
I believe it's like still five six million listeners out
of that whole area, sixty five million, you know people
in the country. But the one thing is every time
I listen on there, whatever time of the day, when
they are talking to people, whether it's the WhatsApp or
they're taking phone calls whatever it is or recorded cause
is that you're calling out different cities around the country

(33:49):
and it's like, okay, this versus doing this, this versus
chiming and thing that they're on the M one or whatever,
whatever highway they're on, some traffic or whatever. It's like
there's a local kind of feel to it, because I
guess the UK England itself kind of has that feel
where people just are not that far away from each other.
It's not like it's so diverse where it almost feels
like it doesn't feel as the versus the United States does.

Speaker 4 (34:10):
It would be luckily if those emails and those calls
that they were taking were real.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
But it works from I'm buying into what it sounds like,
working and honor but completely made up.

Speaker 4 (34:22):
I mean, that is the thing that the Radio One's
producer back in the day, Radio one producer job was
picking the records with the DJ, making sure their records
were queued up for them at the right times, and
you know, taking calls. Now, the Radio one producer's role
is basically to be a voice that certain jocks can
have chiming in now and again, you know they're doing

(34:44):
they're doing the admin stuff. They're making sure that if
they do have guests in the studio, the guests, they're
essentially pas. That's what producers are now. They don't have
any really creative, productive roles. And it's certainly not you know,
taking calls in. What they are doing. They're making up
the emails, they're making up the calls. They're maybe going

(35:04):
through the rolodex of happy to be called fake callers
a go and generate the whole message AI voices. Now,
absolutely absolutely that's what it is. So you don't give
Radio one too much credit because radio I mean, Radio
one is still a big organization that gets his money
for free from the license license fee payer.

Speaker 3 (35:24):
You know, and imaging they still spend money on.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
I mean, at least you can tell that they're producing
and they're bringing in the real talent in. I just
want a taste of that because iHeartRadio or Odyssey or
you know, or whatever else we got here. They don't
do anything like that here, don't anything like a tenth
of what they're doing over there. If we've even had that,
I think I would feel a little bit better about
the radio. But we don't have anything like that at all,
because you can tell over here everything is voice tracked.

(35:49):
No one's gonna live microphonym. It is here. It is
here as well.

Speaker 4 (35:52):
It's just that it's it's done such a clever way.
I mean yeah, because you know there's they use software
now they Zeta, which has dynamic timing. So in other words,
when the jock goes to record their voice tracks, doesn't
matter how long the song is, it will automatically use
AI to shrink or lengthen the song by adding extra hooks,

(36:15):
by reducing hooks, whatever it needs to do to make
sure that that song fits the talk break across every
single station, across every region.

Speaker 2 (36:22):
That's how it's done.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
It's very it's clever technology, but it's it's taken the
soul out of it.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
It really has. Or we used to and I heard
radio though we had with the talk box where you
used to go ahead and it would take like a
predicative talk show and or cash show, and it would
speed it up like an extra like two three percent,
so they can get hit thirt eight seconds or thirty seconds,
sixty seconds of commercials the stupid talk box, and you'd
see the person in the control room. Okay, the show

(36:49):
starts as six after hit the switch, and here we go.
It just going super fast, and I'm hearing rustling ball
going at like fifty miles an hour like no one, yeah,
come on, And I was yea there for a little while.
Of course, in the concepts that and less is more,
these people man tell oh, no, forget you. It's like

(37:09):
it's like, uh, something like that that trauma that you get,
like after going coming back from war post traumatic is
the absolutely Now there's one part I wanted definitely to
ask you, because you've been talking about this quite a bit,
is that now in podcasting there's more of the issue
of making a program more hyper logal. So now there's
a recent update for RSS fees where there's a podcast

(37:32):
colon location tag supporting a real attribute to distinguished between
use cases. So the location the podcast was good it
is about, and the location where the podcast.

Speaker 3 (37:40):
Or episode was recorded or produced.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
So now you can use the location tag in RSS
fees and that was something that you've made invention of
that could be a real game change right now that
technically traditional broadcasters will becoming a local program for years
to make a relocalizing pivot. Does that make it now
for podcasts or something that will be happening. We see
gig geographical podcasting. Something is coming.

Speaker 4 (38:02):
I really hope so, I genuinely because I think this
is where the future entertainment is going to come from
in terms of you know what, why did why do
people love their local radio guys, you know in the
eighties and nineties because they knew that they'd listen to
them every day on the radio. They'd go to a
local shopping mall and they'd bump into them and they'd
be signing autographs for people, and you felt like you

(38:24):
knew the person was talking.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
To you every morning because you'd bump into they were
they were like you.

Speaker 4 (38:29):
They went shopping in the same places as you, they
went drinking in the same bars as you. They had
dinner with their family in the same restaurants as you.
And that's something that's now missing, I think from from
radio podcasting gives people an opportunity to sort of bring
that back. I mean the idea of listening to I
mean where I live near Oxford. You know, the idea

(38:50):
of being able to listen to an Oxford podcast hosted
by a person that I could technically go to the
Westgate shopping center in Oxford and bump into the person.
It's it's that whole thing that we've been missing, that
whole you know, that the relatability and the connection that's
been missing. And I think there's there's a trick being
missed here by companies where you know, you could very

(39:12):
easily set up a local network of podcasts on various
different topics and have it like you've done, have a
network of shows too special interest groups.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
And it costs you nowhere near.

Speaker 4 (39:27):
The amount of money that would cost to run a
local radio network, but the results would just be ah phenomenal.
And I just don't understand why people aren't already getting
excited about this. I certainly am. I personally predict this
is going to become future podcasting.

Speaker 3 (39:41):
You know what's funny make fun of locals.

Speaker 2 (39:44):
And I think, well, there's one point where I was
listening to one radio station, the classic rock station. Here,
let's got Ken dashat great guy in New York? Does
it really been around for a long time? And remember
him mispronouncing a city here, it's Papolo Beach.

Speaker 3 (39:57):
He called it Pompeino. I was like, okay.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Then the other street over there, Copan's Road. You call
it Copan's Road. And already the okay voice tracker, dude,
please learn the language of the of the neighborhood you
talk for. If you're going to act like a local,
talk like a local, try to act like something like that.
It's funny where that comes from. But I think where
you're already seeing that localization now is I think TikTok
is doing a great job of that their algorithm. And

(40:21):
now if you notice in the last two years, they
definitely now target war into your four you page of
local content, so like they're getting used like, oh yeah,
you got me. And I'm thinking seeing videos I would
to normally see. I'm like and now I mean, I
mean followers to it, but like, because they are geo targeting.
The other thing too, is that also the same thing
for advertising. They want to be able to get into

(40:43):
that route too, And I mean, how far away we
from getting there because the thing is, I think this
is the direction that people want to go to. They
have it where we are. You're targeting a lot of
things if that's what you want, but it's thinking a
while to get to that point. And also then if
you get gear targeted, how to make yourself popular within
your market?

Speaker 4 (41:04):
Well, I mean that comes down to your relative to
market yourself, doesn't it really, which some people can do
and some people can't do, I think, But for me,
I think the point is that the opportunity there if
you can figure out how to get people that in
the area that you're targeting to. And you know, Facebook
ads might come into this, Google ads might come into this.

(41:25):
Obviously you got podcast platforms where you can advertise. We
haven't quite you know, got it down to the to
quite you know, the modular, granular level of Okay, so
these people that are listing in these specific areas yet,
but it's coming. I'm pretty confident that it's coming. Ad
tech skinning better all the time. I just think the
opportunity there to be able to literally target those people,

(41:49):
like you say, like TikTok are doing. I personally think
Toktok is a future of local radio. Honestly, I think
that you know what, where we used to have jocks
making comedy bits, so parodies things like that. I mean
you already see it on TikTok now, oh you know,
there I ruined it, which is a great meme where
somebody takes well known songs, takes the vocal track from

(42:13):
it and sticks vocal you know, the voice processing and
auto tunes it too a completely different record.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
And there I ruined it.

Speaker 4 (42:23):
You know, so you got into Sandman from Metallica with
Britney Spears playing over the top of it, and that
sort of stuff is what we were doing in radio
back in the day, and now it's on tick tok
and it's you know, I think that's what it is.
But I think we have to be understanding and accepting
it the fact that things have changed. You know, our
traditional broadcasting is on borrow time. You know that's not

(42:45):
just radio, that's TV as well. Streaming is killing you know,
live TV. The amount of table cutters cord cutters as
they call them, is on the rise. I think that's
the thing is we have to basically be aware that
radio's done so now it's about podcasting. TikTok and creating
content that you can reach your audience with in a

(43:08):
different way, and maybe letting go of the ego a
little bit as well, and understanding that you've got to
create the content that they've been looking for that you
just don't gonna work.

Speaker 2 (43:15):
It's not gonna work.

Speaker 3 (43:16):
Yeah, I don't want to give up on radio.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
I really don't, because they're still my livelihood and I
just have so much great memories for it, and it's
what I've always want to do stay in my business.
If I could have better have podcasting do as well
as it did, I would have wanted to stay in radio,
even though it wouldn't have paid well, and I would
have all these other things. But you know, on the
sense of radio, they have figured out the advertising saff
for being hyper local, so the programmatics have gotten smart

(43:39):
about that. They're good about that part, while radio is
not gonna be able to go and stay hyper trending
because that's where we are in a day of hyper
trends where things come up so quickly as we are
right now. TikTok has the group seven trend, so you've
watched seven videos of the same person of content to
finally in that so now you're a group seven.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
That's the new thing here.

Speaker 2 (43:56):
But the thing is with radio, I think it just
still needs a that there's certain traditional outlets of media
that are not be not need to be part of
the hyper trend. They can't keep up with the hyper
trend of like Okay, something's viral for like a week
and then the next thing's next. So I mean even
for me doing podcasting, now, if there's a trend that
comes up, whether it's as in cultures and social whatever,

(44:17):
you know, to keep up with it. I try to
get there ahead as soon as I can. But like
if I'm looking for a publications running about it or
putting something out about it, or a radio show or
a video about it, it's gonna take time because people
of the time to go and produce the content to
get to that hyper local trend or that hyper trend
so quickly is gonna take time. But I think that's

(44:37):
the other part where you also got to figure out which.

Speaker 3 (44:40):
Lane you want to be in.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Do you want to be in that busy express lane
of like hyper trends and like stay on top of
things and try to be as timely as possible. Or
do you want to just go into the route where
like you can go ahead and glomb over it. But
it's like you stay in a lane of you know
that for radio, I think for music we have screaming.
That's like, okay, here's all the new songs that are
popping up, you know, thousands of songs a day they're

(45:02):
pumping up on Spotify or Apple or whatever it was.
But like somebody has to come in and like out
of the day, you gotta have somebody that's gonna be
critical and say, you know what, where are the taste
makers again, We're gonna be the ones to hear there's
the music coming out and these are songs you should
absolutely hear because it's somebody that is going to concerts.
Somebody is well, that's why to the game, which was
what radio was free form radio or even pirate radio

(45:23):
that was off the off the coast of England back
of the in the sixties and seventies. You had those stations.
You know that they would understand okay, they knew what songs,
what was coming up, was the trends that were coming
in and it wasn't gonna be something that was gonna
be in a fly by Night. It was gonna be
something that was gonna be lingering, it was gonna stay around,
it's gonna be consistent. We need that part where people
are actually following trends and actually can give an idea

(45:47):
of what something is that's a longer trend versus the
hyper trends, And I think that's one thing we're podcasting
can be in that place and either both, but the
traditional media needs to stay in the lane of being
the bigger, wider world view. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
I mean in talking about taste make I mean that
that is what TikTok is doing now, really, isn't it.
I mean, it's picking the trending music. So obviously podcasting
can't touch music. You know, there are licensing laws that
make that next to impossible to do, But that doesn't
mean there can't be some sort of like alignment to
it using TikTok.

Speaker 2 (46:21):
And it's really interesting because there was there was actually.

Speaker 4 (46:25):
Talk of a TikTok radio station at one point that
was going to be branded was actually going to lean
into podcasting in terms of getting the talent from TikTok
that we're doing podcasts and bringing that music part into it.
But again it didn't happen because and I think the
reason for that is it is because the radio bosses
they just.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
Don't have that vision.

Speaker 4 (46:44):
They don't they're not able to get out of their
own way and see the future and understand that actually,
if we're going to really take these guys on and
really do they're doing right.

Speaker 3 (46:53):
Now on radio.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
As a matter of fact, so very artist that might
be on TikTok performing or a somebody that's out there
and has a song on spot. We don't have many
live performances anymore, right, nobody's live performing, no in person
interviews of these zero artists they get to know who
they are, like, we don't get to hear we don't
get to see see these people, you know, and their
craft live acoustic, maybe unplugged. We don't get to see

(47:16):
them and get to hear who they are and not
behind some kind of feet or whatever. I radio or
even television could be doing a newspapers could be doing
that now, could actually say okay, let's go bring to
the forefront. I mean, and we don't have that many
places to do that. I mean, public radio does a
little bit here on a couple of stations, but for
the most part. They also have their own taste of music.
They should actually find taste bakers that are actually going

(47:39):
to be understanding a mainstream view what music is. On
the cusp of crossing over. We don't have many doing that.
The crossover was the most important thing I was talking
about in my Broadcasters podcast. I talk about all the time.
We don't have a crossover anymore. Where Okay, something that
bubbles under from TikTok or Instagram or whatever else that
might be trending and is coming vi okay, somebody takes

(48:02):
it and crosses it over to become mainstream. So top
of the pop is a great example. If you had
punk music in the seventies, it was bowling under and
people were hearing about it, and all of a sudden, Okay,
let's bring on sex pistols, let's bring on you know,
uh uh, the adverts or whatever it is, you know,
like okay, good, then you're you're kind of bringing Okay.
Now people can get to hear it, and it's a

(48:22):
larger audience that picks up on it, and the music companies,
the record companies will obviously more money more money on it.
Radio will get more airplay and get more audiences listening
to them. I think that's been missing right now. I
don't know why that is, But do you see the
same thing like I do. I do.

Speaker 4 (48:39):
I know exactly where you're coming from, And I think
it's one of those things that the fact that they're
not doing that is one of the greatest you know,
causes frustration. But again, you know what you're whenever you're
dealing with legacy media, that is the problem. You know,
there was a reason why they wanted to stamp out
pirate radio back in the sixties and seventies because it

(49:02):
represented something new that would mean they'd have to change
the way things were always done. And we know, if
there's anything that the broadcast industry does not like is change,
whether that's in terms of the medium, whether that's in
terms of the measurement. I mean, they still haven't fully
figured out audience measurement in radio now. And I was

(49:24):
starting to think in the early two thousands, when i'd
been in radio for you know, nearly ten years, Oh
by the time I'm you know, retiring, they'll have figured
this out.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
They haven't.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
And the PPM metering thing didn't figure it out either.
You know, it is again it's flawed technology. So I
think the thing with it is that for me, if
you want to make change within, you have to make
change within because nobody's ever going to give you the
permission slip to do it. And that's why I've gone
into podcasting, because for me, it's, you know, all the
things that radio represented as frustrations. For me, I was

(49:58):
able to circumvent those are just going, well, I don't
need you anymore. I've got podcasting now, and I can
go direct consumer. I don't need to go through an
FM transmitted to get the same things achieved that I
will be able to get done through an RSS feed.
And it's just, you know, the whole thing about yeah,
but you know, the radio is everywhere. You just turn
that on in your car and it's there. It's like, yeah,
but now in twenty twenty five, twenty twenty six, you know,

(50:22):
most people now know what a podcast is and how
they can get one. So really it's about get out,
get out of your own way, and understand that if
you want to build, if you want a future, you've
got to embrace new and just stop moaning about the
fact that things have changed.

Speaker 2 (50:36):
And I think the closing out of the fact is
that creativity is crippled by anything corporate.

Speaker 3 (50:40):
It just does.

Speaker 2 (50:41):
It will absolutely take it unless you keep fighting in
there and keep you in a good fight. You can
keep trying to go and do that and hopefully it
change it. But not podcasting, social media, Internet, all the
creativity is there. So another thing is really the problem
is is that with these corporations, anybody that was creative
or actually had a good mind in there that could
still buckle with the brass and say, Okay, we're gonna
keep trying to make this work and they can still

(51:02):
shine through even do the adversity. That's all gone because
they made sure that all those people can never get
themselves back in.

Speaker 3 (51:08):
So anybody who's creative, they.

Speaker 2 (51:09):
Don't want to be in radio because they know the
corporations that are in there. You know, it's it's such
a toxic environment you just can't. It's a great if
you if you could have the access, it will be great,
but you're not gonna get.

Speaker 3 (51:21):
To do what you want.

Speaker 4 (51:23):
No, there's always somebody that is somebody else's boss that
has to be answered to, and that's always going to
be the problem with that.

Speaker 2 (51:30):
Unfortunately. Yeah, now finally in the work that you're doing.
I have a whole lot of time again talking about
all the things you've been doing. Come comes to Podyo's
podcast pod knows Podcasting, So all as you're doing that,
and let's go into just some of the work you're
doing itself. So real quickly take people into pod knows
Podcasting and just let's go in and talk about the

(51:52):
fact that website is podnows dot co dot UK, p
o d k n o w S dot C offering
podcast production, management, marketing and coaching. Your small business is
a corporates, Tell people were really quick about the four
podcast marketing solutions. Take a minute for the audience and
let them know what you're doing.

Speaker 4 (52:11):
Yeah, So the whole point of it really is to
take if a brand of a solopreneur for small business
or even a corporate wants to, you know, leverage podcasting,
if they've not been really looking at it too hard,
or maybe they've tried in the past it didn't work out,
and they want to know how they can do it
maybe slightly better. That's what we do is we literally

(52:32):
take them, we handhold them, we go through the ideation strategy,
we trust them away from what is the typical idea of, well,
let's get our CEO answering questions about what we do,
which nobody wants to listen to, so we're really are
Our role is to sort of say to them, look,
if you want to edutain, you need to remember the
tame part of this and actually make that a big

(52:54):
part of what you're doing, because you know, educating people
is one thing, but people need to know they want
to be educate in the first place. Unless you've got
the tainment part figured out, then you're not going to
get the opportunity to edutain full stop. So it's really
about helping them understand that what they're doing who'd be
exciting and engaging and not just a sales tool essentially

(53:17):
a marketing tool. It needs to be something that sells itself.
And so that's what we do, and we produce content
that get zeas essentially.

Speaker 2 (53:25):
Right now, as opposed to those companies that might be
looking into the podcast now the idea as a marketing tactic,
but then they get pr companies that'll come in and say, oh,
we're can just get your interviews on other podcasts and
we'll get do some of the things for you. To
put some press releases out, gets you the paydir and medium,
and we'll make thing a little commission off of that.
There are those that I know in my business of
especially in the cannabis industry, that if we want to

(53:47):
get anybody out there to work with us on a
podcast together. All these PR companies have come into space,
found their way in ten years ago and they said, well,
we're going to just go and try to pick up
and go on the cheap with all these companies are good,
they're marketing done without them having they go and have
a marketing director and have a purse strings. They want
to make sure to control those purse strings. Now, how
do you and counteract people that are that's kind of

(54:09):
your competition? How do you cointeract that kind of competition
to try to get people to go ahead and buy
into what you're doing marketing?

Speaker 4 (54:18):
That's really it. It's about telling people how nonsense those agencies are.
I mean, don't get me wrong, there are some PR
companies that do a good job, but most most of
the most of the time, these people what they're doing
is they're doing cold outreach. They're doing it badly. They're
they're burning their brands straight away. By the time it
even gets into your inbox, you know, they've already destroyed

(54:40):
what they were trying to achieve, which was trying to
get interest in what they offer. I think people are
getting wise to these PR companies now, and certainly in podcasting.
I mean, it's pretty much a guaranteed if you launch
a podcast, these people are trailing through RSS feeds looking
for contact emails, and you're going to get an email
from these people within about two episodes. Anyway, I think
it's really for me, the whole thing is about just

(55:02):
being honest and transparent and telling people, look, these are
the alternatives that exist out there. Here's why you might
want to consider this option. Here's why you might want
to consider that option. But if you're looking for this outcome,
then you definitely want to do this with us.

Speaker 2 (55:16):
Or anybody else.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
I think the more you can and you know, the
more you can educate the end user on what's in
it for them, then you haven't really got a competition
because competition's neutralized straight away when you explain to people, yeah,
that's not going to help you.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
It might get you on.

Speaker 4 (55:35):
You know, a little badge to what on your website
you know as featured in Bobes. But beyond that ego
trip that you're going to get from your website, you know,
maybe networking events you can go and brag just like
chart positions in the Apple podcast chats, it's not going
to do much for you other than have you know,
bragging material. So it's really about and you know, educating

(55:57):
people on where the value.

Speaker 2 (55:58):
Is right wonderful Also for people that want to go know,
if you go over to the website, you can also
again find the podcasting Insights program they podcast.

Speaker 3 (56:09):
Also you were mentioning as the episode.

Speaker 2 (56:11):
About I didn't do it, I'm doing things wrong, you
actually made the admission of it. I also see here
the website podmastery dot co if people are going to
want to go and find.

Speaker 3 (56:22):
Episodes there, so either which way.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Finally, you know, for those that are looking to go
ahead and work with you, to go and book a
chat with you, take them to the minute and just
say why people need to go into podcasting and why
they should go ahead and go to you a pod
nos podcasting. What will be the absolute reason if you're
on the fence as a company or as an individual,
what's holding you back from doing podcasting, What should they

(56:47):
hear from you that motivates them to go and do it?

Speaker 3 (56:50):
Right now?

Speaker 4 (56:51):
I mean, there are more ears than ever before. We're
in you know, we're in the millions now of people
that not only have heard of podcasting, now more than
half of the world has heard about a podcast and
a good third of the world is listening to them
on a regular basis. It's really it's that huge. So
the opportunity for you to get your messaging out there,

(57:13):
whatever that be, nonprofit, commercial, enterprise, whatever you are, the
opportunity for you to get new audience that you haven't
been reaching before. Because let's be honest about it, a
blog is a third of your audience, video is a
third of your audience, and audio is another third of
your audience. So if you want to meet all three
of those, you're gonna need all three of those formats.

(57:34):
And so podcasting what it does is it not only
gives you the audio, but if you do it cleverly,
you get the video as well. So two birds were
one stone killed straight away. And honestly, there's nothing better
than having some member of the public email you and
say I listened to your podcast about insert topic here.
Love the insights. How can I work with you when

(57:55):
you get that versus having to sit there and pay
someone and send out a hundred and fifty DMS for
you and all that icky email outsourcing stuff that we met,
you know, the the outbound that we mentioned just a
moment ago. You know, it's just a much more enjoyable
way of doing your lead your lead gen basically.

Speaker 2 (58:15):
So I'm here once it go with the podmaster Neil Villio,
who runs Partners Podcasting also hosts of the podcast Against
I podcast. And I appreciate all your knowledge and wisdom
here and sharing all the wonderful stories with us.

Speaker 3 (58:27):
Thank you for being on. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (58:30):
No, thank you, absolute pleasure being on, George. And yeah,
I really appreciate what you're doing. And we need more
people like you that are really spreading the truth about
you know, not only the broadcasting industry and the podcasting industry,
but the world of audio in general. There's a lot
of nonsense out there. So the more evangelists we have,
the better as far as I'm concerned. So thank you

(58:51):
for making your part of this.

Speaker 2 (58:53):
What's again a great interview with Neil Vegliel here on
The Broadcasters podcast. Quick reminder you can hear more of
my interview with him on the Podcasters and on my
Podcasters roseries. Look for that later this month Kingopodcasts dot
com and take a look forward and until next time,
remember the content is king, and the control of your
content is in your hands