November 28, 2025 • 41 mins
JEFF KASS - Columbine: A True Crime Story - People think of school shootings as random, unpredictable events, but Jeff Kass says there are patterns to the violence and, more importantly, ways to prevent it. Kass was one of the first reporters on the scene at Columbine on April, 20, 1999, and his definitive book, COLUMBINE: A True Crime Story, is the result of ten years of research. In the face of determined opposition, Kass uncovered important details about Columbine and what led to it. He has translated those insights to school shootings and other shootings across the world: who's likely to commit them, where they tend to happen, and what circumstances often precede them. As students from elementary school through college return to class, Kass can talk to your audience about several school violence issues. Jeff Kass has been a reporter for the Rocky Mountain News and Los Angeles Times, and a regular contributor to U.S. News & World Report, the Boston Globe, the Christian Science Monitor, and Newsday. He has appeared on CNN, Court TV, MSNBC, NBC, Fox News, and radio. He also blogs and writes op-eds on Columbine and other mass shootings. - www.jeffkassauthor.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
The X Zone Radio and TV show is largely an
opinion talk show. All opinions, comments, or statements of fact
expressed by Rob McConnell's guests are strictly their own and
are not to be construed as those of the X
Zone Radio and TV show or in any manner endorsed
by Rob McConnell, Realmar McConnell Media Company, Talk Star Radio Network,
It's affiliated stations or employees.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
All Welcome to the X Zone, a place where fact
is fiction and fiction is reality. Now here's your host,
Rob McConnell.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Bad Boss, what's it.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
For you?
Speaker 5 (01:19):
Bad Boss? Bad Boys? What's again to do?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
What's for you?
Speaker 6 (01:25):
Welcome back to the xcell On everyone. This is Rob McConnell.
We're coming to you from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Worldwide toll free one eight hundred and six ten seven
zero three five email XON at X on Radio TV
dot com, on MSN, Messenger, X On Radio TV at
hotmail dot com, and our website www dot xone Radio
(01:46):
TV dot com. We're gonna be talking today about the
Columbine shootings. We're also gonna be talking about other mass
shootings in the United States and around the world. And
my guest this hour is Jeff Cass. And when people
think of school shootings, they think that they're random, unpredictable events.
But not according to our guests this hour, Jeff Cash,
(02:07):
who says there are patterns to the violence and more importantly,
waste to prevent it. Jeff was one of the first
reporters on the scene of the Columbine incident going back
to April the twentieth of nineteen ninety nine, and his
definitive book, Columbine, a True Crime Story is the result
of ten years of research. Jeff Cass has been a
(02:29):
reporter for the Rocky Mountain News in the Los Angeles Times,
than a regular contributor to US News and World Report,
The Boston Globe, Christian Science Monitor, and Newsday. He's appeared
on CNN, Core TV, MSNBCNBC, Fox News and radio stations. Yeah,
he also has a blog that he writes about. We're
going to be talking about that a little later on.
And Jeff, thanks very much for joining us. And just
(02:51):
as you and I were both getting ready to do
this this interview, there was another mass shooting in Texas.
What is going on in the world today, Jeff.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Well, you know, I think there is a copycat effect.
I hate to say it, but these shooters do build
upon each other to some degree, and I think they all,
you know, have individual problems. There are common denominators, but
you know, nobody's exactly the same. But these different people
(03:20):
see the same solution to their problems, which is a
mass shooting.
Speaker 6 (03:24):
Jeff, how much does the amount of media play that
these shootings have in the in the copycat scenario, you know,
like I'm.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Saying that the media, well the media would feed into
the copycat issue. It definitely expands the reach of what happens.
But you know, I think the hatred and the issues
that these shooters have are so fundamental. It's not just
like they're going to go away and have great lives
(03:54):
if they don't hear about his school shooting. I mean,
they have deep, fundamental problems and they're looking for a
way to solve them.
Speaker 6 (04:01):
But the amount of coverage that is given to these
copycat murders and these copycat cases, does this actually fuel
the fire that is instilled within the person who is
going to be a potential copycat and does this kind
of get them going because they too want their ten
or fifteen twenty minutes of fame.
Speaker 5 (04:20):
You know, I don't think it's a fame issue though.
I think it's more revenge. These people are angry at
particular individuals or at society as a whole for doing
them wrong, not giving them enough respect. So that's the
real motivation here is vengeance.
Speaker 6 (04:39):
Jeff, how did you become one of the main reporters
on the Columbine shootings.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
Well, I was one of the first reporters on Seaton
to cover it, which you know, in those days, if
you were a reporter in Denver, you were covering Columbine,
so it was just about everybody in the area. But
you know a lot of reporters didn't want to keep
covering it after the first month or so, and I
(05:07):
thought there were still unanswered questions, And that's what kept
me going.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
In your mind, in your opinion, what was the number
one unanswered question of the time.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
Why were school shootings suddenly occurring as a trend across
the country. Why were there more school shootings than ever?
What was going on while Columbine is i would say,
still the world's most iconic school shooting and the one
we all think of when we think of these mass shootings.
You had had others before that, and I thought, something
(05:38):
is going on here? Why is this trend occurring?
Speaker 6 (05:42):
All right, Jeff, you and I have to take a
commercial break, please done. Black explanation and our special guests
this hour as Jeffcass, and we're talking to about Jeff's
new book, Columbine, A True Crime Story. His website is
www dot jeffcassauthor dot com. That's j. E. F. F. Kass,
Author dot com. And we'll be back on the other
(06:03):
side of this commercial break as the Xzone continues with
ears truly from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Once again,
our email x Zone at xone Radio TV dot com
and our website www dot x Zone Radio TV dot com.
We'll be back in two minutes. Don't go away, Share
(06:35):
shot Share Excellnation. Jeff Cass is our special guest. He
is the author of Columbine, a True Crime Story. His
(06:58):
website is ww do Jeffcassauthor dot com. Jeff, why did
you decide to write the book Columbine A True Crime Story?
Speaker 7 (07:09):
Well?
Speaker 5 (07:09):
I felt that after reporters really from all over the
world started leaving after that first month or so following
the shootings. I felt that there was still information I
could get that other people were not getting. We didn't
have a full enough picture of the killers themselves or
their families, And as I mentioned before, I felt nobody
(07:32):
was exploring why these school shootings were occurring across the
country with increased frequency.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
What have we learned since Columbine, Well.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
I think we've learned to take warning signs more seriously.
For example, there was a particularly violent and bloody essay
that one of the Columbine killers turned into class two
months before the shootings, and the teacher actually flagged it,
actually talked to Dylan Creebold's parents. But you know, after
(08:04):
the shootings, lawsuits were filed and people clammed up, and
it's not really clear the full extent how much this
teacher pursued this essay and her concerns about it. But
as far as what we've learned, for example, I don't
think an essay like the one Dylan Cleebold turned in
before Columbine would be left alone again. I think whoever
(08:30):
got a hold of that essay in this day and age,
whether it's a teacher, a classmate, a parent, a school official,
or police officer, I think they would pursue it much
further more to the ends of the earth than before Columbine.
Speaker 6 (08:45):
What do you think some of these signs are that
parents and teachers should look for, or that would be
actions being taken by the youth of today that would
deserve immediate attention.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
Well, you know, it's it's like the essay I just
mentioned when somebody turns in an essay about somebody who,
in this case, actually looked like the Columbine killer, was
the same height, dressed like him, was left handed, just
like Dylan Creebold was, and killed methodically, kills preps for
(09:21):
no real apparent reason. You know, when you see stuff
like that, you should do something. And in the case
of the Aurora shooting we have now in Colorado, apparently
the suspect bought six thousand rounds of ammunition around the
two months prior to the shootings. And I haven't seen
(09:43):
yet that he had any history of being a hunter,
you know, of you know, being interested in guns as
a hobby before this. So when somebody does something like
that with no history and you know, suddenly buy six
thousand rounds of ammunition, maybe something's going on there.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
According to the ATF, there are no ways of tracking
these these uh, these ammunition purchases that are made online.
All the weapons that he purchased were legal purchases.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Yeah, no, yeah, And that's why it's up to people
like you and me and parents and friends and teachers
to do something. You know, I guess the ATF conceivedly
could track every bullet bot or you know, but these
would be like, you know, this would have to have
some sort of complete surveillance over society to do this.
(10:35):
It just would not be a reality. So yeah, it's
up to people like you and I who see something
that is out of the ordinary, unusually violent, very odd
topt us to do something or say something.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
Then wait, let's let's go to the other side of
the coin with what happened in Wisconsin, and that was
that was a hate crime. The perpetrator deliberately sought out
the seekh or the Sheikh community was only it only
opened fire on shikes that had beards and turbans. Are
these just some of the things that we can expect
(11:09):
more of in the future where white supremacists are going
to say, hey, enough is enough, and they're going to
flex their muscle.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
Uh, you know, I don't know, I mean, it's possible
if there is this copycat effect, that white supremacists may
feel more emboldened because of what school shooters and other
mass shooters are doing. I think the white supremacist hatred
has always been there, that's nothing new, but they may
(11:40):
they may feel more emboldened.
Speaker 6 (11:43):
How about gun control? What are your views on gun control?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Well, the thing is, I'm not that's not going to
solve the problem. As we touched upon a bit, many
times these guns are obtained legally, or they're taken from
white in the case of the kids, the teenage school shooters,
they get them from a parent's home, they get them
from a relative's home, from a neighbor's home, they take
(12:08):
them from the garage, or you know, even the locked
say for the locked cabinet. So I think these shooters
are very determined. I think they're usually pretty smart and
they're going to find a way. So I don't think
that's the best avenue.
Speaker 6 (12:25):
And yet countries with gun control have a significant lower
amount of homicides caused by guns than the United States
does they do.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
But again, I don't think gun control is the only issue.
And for example, there was a great story in the
New York Times. It was about one year ago and
I blogged about it. Apparently there are these attacks on
school yards in China against school children, and in China
it is near impossible to get the gun if you're
(12:56):
a private citizen, So these attacks are occurring on chill
going with knives, with sort of blunt force weapons, baseball
bat type things. These people are going to find a way.
And we do have these mass shootings in other countries
where we see these determined shooters. Norway, yes, which was
(13:16):
I believe it's seventy seven killed, that's right. We had
winning in Germany that was about three years ago. There
are many people killed in that. And you know, both
these countries have much stricter gun control than the United States.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
So do we do? Is there is there a connection
between schoolyard bullying and the the increase in gun crimes
or crimes within the school itself. What's the what is
that the what is that the core of the problem here?
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Well, I don't think that the bullying helps, you know.
Interestingly enough, actually the Columbine Killers never mentioned the word
bullying in any of their diaries or the videotapes that
have and released. But there's many accounts of other students
saying they were bullied, and that bullying went on to
a large degree at Columbine High School. I don't think
(14:11):
in this case in Columbine it was the root cause,
but it's an aggravating factor. It doesn't help things that
they were also bullied by many accounts.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
Is there any specific demographic or geographic location where these
shootings take more are more frequent than other parts, or
is it scattered throughout the map?
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Well, with the school shootings, it definitely has occurred more
frequently in the South and the West of the United States,
So people are going to say, well, what the heck
is going on there? There's a long standing tradition. It's
called the culture of honor, and it's this sort of
chivalrous knighthood tradition of I need to defend my honor
(15:01):
and if you do not respect me, if you do
not show the respect I feel I deserve, I can
I feel it's okay to retaliate with violence.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
Where they where do they get this concept from?
Speaker 5 (15:15):
Yeah, it's you know, it's a concept that has actually
been studied by psychologists apart from school shootings, and even
before school shootings were occurring. Psychologists pinpointed this issue, and
what they say is because the South of the United
States was more settled by landed gentry, by elites who
(15:37):
felt it's very important to preserve your honor, to stand
up for your family, to stand up for your yourself.
This tradition has been passed down throughout families. Hey, you
need to defend your honor, you need to defend the
family's honor. And another really interesting twister or reason for
this is they say the South and the West was
(15:59):
there were a lot of settlers there who were herders
and they'll fay even namely pig herders. And when you
are a herder, you must defend your animals with violence
against any outside threats because that's your livelihood.
Speaker 6 (16:14):
So well, how does this spill over into human beings?
Speaker 7 (16:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, so well, these are human beings who are protecting
their herds, protecting their honor.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
I understand that. But how does this turn you know,
how does this spill over into mass shootings and mass violence?
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Sure? Sure so. What I believe is that school shooters
in the South and the West are kids who feel
their honor has been violated because they have not been
recognized as a popular kid. They haven't been recognized by
girls who want to date them. They don't have enough friends,
(16:54):
they don't have enough respect on the school yard, and
they feel it's an issue of defending their honor. Hey,
you guys didn't give me enough respect. I'm going to
retaliate against you.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
What were the home like home LIFs of these Columbine shooters?
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Was there?
Speaker 6 (17:08):
Were they dysfunctional families?
Speaker 5 (17:12):
Not on the surface, not from what we know. For
the most part, they were both two parent families, no divorces,
so you know, middle to upper middle class, no extreme
poverty or anything like that. You know, there were In
(17:34):
the case of the Kleebolds, his mom, sorry, has has
made some indications to police that her son was into
violent military type things. He had a tough look, he
liked this look. You know, she's indicated there were some
clues that he was trying to promote his toughness, be
(17:55):
a tough guy, so to speak. Chris's dad was in
the military. But you know, they don't seem to be
overly violent or you know, extreme families in any general sense.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
Wasn't there? It wasn't there a sort of connection to
the goth community with the Columbine Killers.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
You know, not really that was probably overblown and incorrect.
In the beginning, they did want trench coats to school,
but it was more because there was a clique known
as the trench Coat Mafia and they were rebels. They
were just rebels, that's what they stood for, being anti establishment,
sort of fighting back at the popular people. Fighting back,
(18:43):
whether it was you know, actual physical fighting or just
sort of saying, hey, I'm going to stand up to
the popular kids. I'm going to stand up to the teachers.
I'm not going to do what they say, or you know,
I'm not going to follow all the rules. These guys
wore trench coats, and really it started because one of
the kids got a gift of a trench coat for
(19:05):
you know, like Christmas or his birthday.
Speaker 6 (19:07):
Jeff's done by. You only have to dig our commercial break.
We'll be back on the other side of the news
Xzone Nation. Jeff cast is our special guest. He's the
author of a great book, Columbine at True Crime Story
www dot jeffcassauthor dot com. And we'll be back on
the other side of this break in about oh five
minutes from now. Don't go away. You're listening to the
(19:39):
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(20:03):
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Speaker 8 (20:13):
It's done.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
I want sun goes down, silkod day.
Speaker 8 (20:33):
Chord to the milky way.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
You and Bababy, we could thank you something le do.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
It's the right time of the.
Speaker 8 (20:54):
Start to make is.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
It's the right time, big no use time.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Welcome back everyone. This is the x oone. My name
is Rob McConnell. We're coming to you from our studios
in Hamilton, Ontario, worldwide, toll free one eight hundred and
six ten seven zero three five email x at Xon
Radio TV dot com, on MSN, Messenger, Xon Radio TV
at hotmail dot com, and our website www dot Xon
(21:34):
Radio TV dot com. This just in from our newsroom.
Please took him in into custoday on Monday, August the thirteenth,
after multiple people were shot near Texas A and M University.
A police official said early reports told of someone using
automatic weapons shooting people from a residence. Local news station
KBA t X is reporting multiple casualties are involved. Several
(21:57):
law enforcement of officers were among the people shot. Ronda
Seaton of the College Station A Police department told CNN
she doesn't have information on how many people were shot
or their conditions, as she said a person identified as
the gunman was in custody. The shooting happened about one
block away from the campus, seat and said the university
(22:19):
had warned people to stay away from the intersection of
well Born Road and George Bush Drive, as well as
part of Fidelity in the College Station, Texas. The crime
scene is near the football stadium Kyle Field. College Station
and Texas A and M University drew national attention tragically
when twelve people were killed and twenty seven injured when
(22:42):
the Aggie Bonfire collapsed while being constructed in nineteen ninety nine.
And that's from our newsroom and our good friends at CNN.
My guest this hour, ironically or coincidentally is Jeff Cashi
is the author of Columbine, a true crime store. His
website is www dot jeffcossauthor dot com and Jeff Walb
(23:06):
once again, welcome back. I thank you very much for
being with us today. When we look at all the
different mass shooters, is there any one string that we
can tie them all together with besides the fact that
they were basically rejects?
Speaker 5 (23:27):
Well there or they feel Yeah, they feel they've been rejected.
They you know, they may have friends and stuff, but
it's just it's the sort of lowest rung of the
social ladder, so to speak. They want vengeance. That they're angry,
and they want vengeance against people who they think have
(23:48):
wronged them or you know, for people whatever reason they
feel that they have been wronged. I don't know, but
you know, it's a perception that the world or certain
people are against them.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
But when we look at the the the victims of
these shootings, you know, if they want vengeance, why wouldn't
they target their their they're victims more selectively instead of
people who are basically innocent bystanders.
Speaker 7 (24:14):
Yeah. Well, you know, it comes to me that the
whole world is again for them, and you know the
whole world or you know, society I know it's such
a vague cliche term, but you know, they feel societies
against them, so society becomes everybody in that that Man
movie theater.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
I'm sorry, Jeff. When you were writing your book call
them Buying a true crime Story, was there anything that
you discovered in your research that that sent you for
a loop.
Speaker 7 (24:48):
One of the things that I did sell me was
what I got, For example, Illan Cleeble's apology.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Say which I was the only person who obtained that.
Speaker 7 (24:58):
He applied to college accept at the University of Arizona.
They can get that out of the dorm room. I
was surprised at how much.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
They could also hide their anger and seem so normal.
There were definitely signs, as we've talked about, there are
plenty of signs. But like at the same time that
Dylan was turning in that extremely bloody and violent class essay,
he is writing an essay at a college application essay saying, hey,
(25:30):
I'm a great guy. I want to study computer science.
You know, he said, I've been through some I've had
some troubles, but I'm on the right track now. I
want to improve my life and just sort of that duality.
Speaker 6 (25:45):
Sounds like sounds like a bit of a multiple personality disorder.
Speaker 5 (25:50):
Yeah, it does in a way, although they haven't been
dye they call mind killers, were not diagnosed with that.
I think it's more, you know, being able to hide
their true feelings.
Speaker 6 (26:02):
What do you think educators could do because to I mean,
besides you know, getting getting more involved and making sure
that if a teacher raises a flag based on something
that a student has turned into her what can educators
do more to protect the kids, the innocent kids that
seem to be victimized once again as we're seeing now
(26:24):
in Texas by these shooters on campus.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Well, I mean that's the key thing is to recognize
the warning signs before they happen and tell somebody, you know,
pursue it. There's certain procedures you know that schools will
go over, such as you know, evacuation drills the same
way people drill for a hurricane or an earthquake. Know
(26:51):
where the emergency exits are, uh, you know, listen for
the codes or have codes in place at your school
that will go over the intercom. If there's a shooter
found in the school, you know, how to evacuate or
barricade the classroom. If you have to, you know, sadly,
be prepared to defend yourself to some degree.
Speaker 6 (27:13):
What steps do you think law enforcement should take? You
Should we have more metal detectors in school? Should we
have more policing within the schools?
Speaker 5 (27:22):
You know, I don't think metal detectors are going to
do it. I mean you take the scenario of the
Columbine killers and they, you know, stood on a hill
just outside the school and they charged down into the
school with their guns. I mean, metal detectors aren't going
to do anything. Just like in Aurora. You know, the
(27:43):
guy went out of back door, came back in, had
his guns, and you know, a metal detector isn't going
to do it. The police have made changes, though, and
they seem to be the right changes, which is, for example,
when Columbine occurred, the idea was when you have shooters
inside a location like a school, you surround the place,
(28:07):
you make a perimeter, and you wait for the police,
psychologist or the FBI guy to come in and you
talk the person out. That's the traditional way of looking
at these things before Columbine. And a good analogy is
the way we used to deal with terrorists on airplanes.
(28:27):
The idea was, Okay, this guy is going to land
the airplane in Cuba or something or Libya, take hostages,
ask for a ransom, and then give up the hostages
once they get money or once they can fly the
plane to another country and they're done. They're not going
to kill anyone. We've learned from school shootings. These people
don't want hostages. They will possibly kill as many people
(28:51):
as they can before they stop. So police now are
trained to go in after the shooting. Don't do a perimeter,
try and talk them out. Go in if you can.
I mean, if you only have a handgun on you,
that would be foolish. But if you have a shotgun
or some sort of automatic weapon in your police car
(29:12):
and you have another officer who can accompany you, go
So that has been done. It's called the active shooter protocol,
and it's the new training. It's the default training for
these situations.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
What would you like readers to come out with after
reading your book.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
I'd like them to see the patterns why these are
occurring in also suburbs, in small towns where kids can
feel really alienated, that they're occurring in the South and
the West of the United States, and also that they
can do something. You know, if you see these warning signs,
if something you know grabs you is wrong or usually violent,
(30:01):
you should say something to somebody. You should do something.
Speaker 6 (30:05):
What have been the reviews on your book? Any of
the people who were involved in the Columbine shooting read
your book, and if so, what have their comment's been?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
And I think they say it's been the most accurate
book out there on what happened at Columbine, And you know,
there are what I portrayed is how it happened at Columbine.
Speaker 6 (30:29):
What was the hardest part about writing this book.
Speaker 5 (30:36):
Probably thinking about the pain that the victims had to
go through. I mean, you know, there's a lot of
people who didn't want to talk. And whenever people yell
at you or threatened to sue you as a reporter
or slam the door in your face, that certainly bothersome.
But you know, it's really nothing compared to thinking about
(30:58):
not only what the victim and the victims' families had
to go through at Columbine, but I think it was
exacerbated because they had to do it all in public.
You know, it's one thing to have your child shot
and killed at school, where you expected them to be
perfectly safe. But then you know, to have the media
(31:20):
asking you about it. I imagine that adds another degree
of difficulty.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
It seems at times the media goes after the gorious
stories with the most vengeance, after all, yourself being in
the media and no, especially in print. If if it bleeds,
it leads, should the media, under certain circumstances back off.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
Well, yeah, in some stories, yes, but I mean not
in these mass shootings. We can't ignore them either, and
if we ignore them, we're never going to learn anything
from them. Yeah, I think I think there probably is.
You know, maybe when we continuously cover you know, car
(32:08):
crashes or random bar fights, when yeah, when we're doing
too much violent coverage, it's not good. But I don't
think we can ignore the big stories.
Speaker 6 (32:20):
The internet. Has that been used by mass shooters as
a way of gaining notoriety or is it just another
form of multi media? Now?
Speaker 5 (32:36):
You know they've looked up like in the case of
the Virginia tech shooter, he had looked up the Columbine
shootings and you know, had some stuff about them, and
I believe he mentioned them in his one of his
videotapes that he had mailed out to the media. Actually,
(32:56):
and then there was another shooter in our Vada, Colorado
that most of us have probably forgotten about. But he
went to a church and shot and killed some people
actually in Colorado Springs, and he had looked at it.
I think he had stuff on his computer. Regarding to
Columbine killers, they do look to them. I mean, it's
(33:16):
hard to deny that there's any there's no copycat effect,
but I think, you know, again, they want vengeance. They're
angry at people. I don't think they necessarily want fame.
They want to get back at people.
Speaker 6 (33:30):
But if they want to get back at people, as
you've said before, why don't they get back at the
people that are causing them all this anger, all this
hatred instead of junk Q public. That's what I can't understand.
Speaker 5 (33:46):
Yeah, well, again, to them, the whole world is against them.
If you're an outcast, if you don't have a lot
of friends, if you can't find friends, you know, if
you can't get a date to the prom, everyone is
against you. You know, it's not just the girl who
(34:08):
said no. You know, it's not just the guy who
wouldn't hang out with you and be your friend, but
they feel that this is symptomatic of all the whole
world being against them.
Speaker 6 (34:19):
All right, But if this is the case, and if
this is how they feel that the whole world is
against them, wouldn't there be something at home that mom
or dad should be able to clue into that something
is not right with their son or their daughter, that
they need to spend more time and attention on this child,
and if necessary, get the child on the proper help.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
You would think, you would think, But you know, in
the case of the Columbine killers, nobody was ever prosecuted
as being an accomplice to them or knowing about their plans.
And there's no indication in their diaries or their videos
that they told anyone that's secret. But that doesn't and
(35:02):
I think, yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:03):
But if I'm not mistaken, that doesn't match the profile
of the other mass shooters.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
In the sense of that they dropped.
Speaker 6 (35:12):
Clues well, that they were so secretive.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Oh well, I mean, look at Holmes in Aurora, James Holmes.
I mean, I don't know that he told anybody about
his plans either. And I think you also have the
situation here where it's sort of a vicious circle because
these people get angry and frustrated because they're isolated from society.
(35:37):
And then when you are isolated, you have so many
fewer people left to notice the warning.
Speaker 6 (35:42):
Signs true, very true. You and I have to take
our final break for this hour. Jeff, thanks very much
for joining us. Great talking to you, excell nation. Jeff
cast is our special guest who's the author of Columbine,
a True Crime Story. His website is www dot Jeff
Cass author dot com. And we'll be back on the
(36:02):
other side of this commercial break as the X Zone
continues from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. When we
come back, I'll see if the newsroom has an update
for me on the shooting in Texas. My name is
Rob McConnell. This is the X Zone. I'll be back
with Jeff Cass on the other side of this break.
Don't gowad the milky way.
Speaker 8 (36:27):
You and me, baby, we could think of something that do.
Speaker 5 (36:45):
Don't call you.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Down. Name on duc You're gonna leave, gonna take that
big one.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
Welcome back, every one. Jeff Cass is our special guest
this hour. He is the author of Columbine, a True
Crime Story. His website is www Dot jeffcassauthor dot com.
That's www dot jeffcass author dot com. And just for
the latest UH on the update of the Texas shooting.
(37:30):
Police took a man into custoday Monday afternoon after multiple
people were shot near Texas A and M University. A
police official said several law enforcement officers were among the
people shot. Ronda sat And of the College Staton Policeman
Department told CNN she didn't have any information on how
many people were shot or their conditions. Once again, this
(37:52):
is the let me see, this is an incident that
is happening as we're talking right now Acusta. A suspect
has been taken into custody, and there were several people shot,
conditions unknown at this time near Texas A and M University.
(38:14):
So here we go again, Jeff, another shooting. You and
I have been talking about Columbine, we were talking about Aurora,
we were talking about the temple in where was it, Wisconsin,
and bang here we've got another one. And it seems
to be like it's just not in the United States,
but it's also over the world. And you and I
(38:35):
were talking also about the shrewder in Norway and apparently
report just out says that officials could have stopped what
happened in Norway. We don't have the total lay information
on that report. But is the world going crazy?
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Yeah? No, I don't think it's going crazy. But I think,
you know what's the issue is that one of things
we're trying to get you're trying to get at, is
that you know, why are these things occurring with such frequency?
And I think the idea is is that the door
has been opened to this as a possibility. I mean
(39:14):
twenty years ago, if you were an outsider, an outcast
in high school or you know, in your life in general,
I just don't think a mass shooting was on your
radar as a possible solution. And you know what happens is, sadly,
the idea becomes a real possibility to people, something like
(39:38):
Combine happens. It's cemented in the really the worldwide consciousness.
And I think the term is it becomes the art
of the possible. Somebody else has done it, and now
it's possible. It's on your radar screen and it becomes
one of your solutions to your problems.
Speaker 6 (39:59):
Just getting news in here. Jeff At one officer and
civilian were killed in today's shooting. Yeah, Jeff, want to
thank you so much for joining us. It's been a
great pleasure talking to you. Congratulations on your book, and
I'd love to have the opportunity of speaking to you
again in the future. Okay, thank you, Take care of Jeff,
x Oon Nation. Jeff Cass has been our guest of
(40:20):
this hour. Www Dot jeffcassauthor dot com. That's www Dot
jeffcassauthor dot com. He's the author of Columbine, a true
crime story. I'll be back on the other side of
this commercial break. Wow, that was kind of loud. Woke
me up. Thanks, Craig. I'll be back on the other
(40:44):
side of this commercial break with the news at six
and a half minutes past the hour as the X
Zone continues from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada one
eight hundred sixty ten seven zero three five worldwide toll
free email x on at xone, radio time dot com,
on MSN, Messenger, X Zone Radio TV at hotmail dot com,
(41:05):
and our website xon Radio TV dot com. Oh boy,
thanks a lot, Craig.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
I needed that.
Speaker 6 (41:12):
We'll be back on the other side of this commercial
break at six and a half minutes past the top
of the hour. My name is Rob McConnell. This is
the X Zone. Don't go away.
The X Zone Radio and TV show is largely an
opinion talk show. All opinions, comments, or statements of fact
expressed by Rob McConnell's guests are strictly their own and
are not to be construed as those of the X
Zone Radio and TV show or in any manner endorsed
by Rob McConnell, Realmar McConnell Media Company, Talk Star Radio Network,
It's affiliated stations or employees.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
All Welcome to the X Zone, a place where fact
is fiction and fiction is reality. Now here's your host,
Rob McConnell.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Bad Boss, what's it.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
For you?
Speaker 5 (01:19):
Bad Boss? Bad Boys? What's again to do?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
What's for you?
Speaker 6 (01:25):
Welcome back to the xcell On everyone. This is Rob McConnell.
We're coming to you from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Worldwide toll free one eight hundred and six ten seven
zero three five email XON at X on Radio TV
dot com, on MSN, Messenger, X On Radio TV at
hotmail dot com, and our website www dot xone Radio
(01:46):
TV dot com. We're gonna be talking today about the
Columbine shootings. We're also gonna be talking about other mass
shootings in the United States and around the world. And
my guest this hour is Jeff Cass. And when people
think of school shootings, they think that they're random, unpredictable events.
But not according to our guests this hour, Jeff Cash,
(02:07):
who says there are patterns to the violence and more importantly,
waste to prevent it. Jeff was one of the first
reporters on the scene of the Columbine incident going back
to April the twentieth of nineteen ninety nine, and his
definitive book, Columbine, a True Crime Story is the result
of ten years of research. Jeff Cass has been a
(02:29):
reporter for the Rocky Mountain News in the Los Angeles Times,
than a regular contributor to US News and World Report,
The Boston Globe, Christian Science Monitor, and Newsday. He's appeared
on CNN, Core TV, MSNBCNBC, Fox News and radio stations. Yeah,
he also has a blog that he writes about. We're
going to be talking about that a little later on.
And Jeff, thanks very much for joining us. And just
(02:51):
as you and I were both getting ready to do
this this interview, there was another mass shooting in Texas.
What is going on in the world today, Jeff.
Speaker 5 (03:00):
Well, you know, I think there is a copycat effect.
I hate to say it, but these shooters do build
upon each other to some degree, and I think they all,
you know, have individual problems. There are common denominators, but
you know, nobody's exactly the same. But these different people
(03:20):
see the same solution to their problems, which is a
mass shooting.
Speaker 6 (03:24):
Jeff, how much does the amount of media play that
these shootings have in the in the copycat scenario, you know,
like I'm.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
Saying that the media, well the media would feed into
the copycat issue. It definitely expands the reach of what happens.
But you know, I think the hatred and the issues
that these shooters have are so fundamental. It's not just
like they're going to go away and have great lives
(03:54):
if they don't hear about his school shooting. I mean,
they have deep, fundamental problems and they're looking for a
way to solve them.
Speaker 6 (04:01):
But the amount of coverage that is given to these
copycat murders and these copycat cases, does this actually fuel
the fire that is instilled within the person who is
going to be a potential copycat and does this kind
of get them going because they too want their ten
or fifteen twenty minutes of fame.
Speaker 5 (04:20):
You know, I don't think it's a fame issue though.
I think it's more revenge. These people are angry at
particular individuals or at society as a whole for doing
them wrong, not giving them enough respect. So that's the
real motivation here is vengeance.
Speaker 6 (04:39):
Jeff, how did you become one of the main reporters
on the Columbine shootings.
Speaker 5 (04:46):
Well, I was one of the first reporters on Seaton
to cover it, which you know, in those days, if
you were a reporter in Denver, you were covering Columbine,
so it was just about everybody in the area. But
you know a lot of reporters didn't want to keep
covering it after the first month or so, and I
(05:07):
thought there were still unanswered questions, And that's what kept
me going.
Speaker 6 (05:10):
In your mind, in your opinion, what was the number
one unanswered question of the time.
Speaker 5 (05:16):
Why were school shootings suddenly occurring as a trend across
the country. Why were there more school shootings than ever?
What was going on while Columbine is i would say,
still the world's most iconic school shooting and the one
we all think of when we think of these mass shootings.
You had had others before that, and I thought, something
(05:38):
is going on here? Why is this trend occurring?
Speaker 6 (05:42):
All right, Jeff, you and I have to take a
commercial break, please done. Black explanation and our special guests
this hour as Jeffcass, and we're talking to about Jeff's
new book, Columbine, A True Crime Story. His website is
www dot jeffcassauthor dot com. That's j. E. F. F. Kass,
Author dot com. And we'll be back on the other
(06:03):
side of this commercial break as the Xzone continues with
ears truly from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Once again,
our email x Zone at xone Radio TV dot com
and our website www dot x Zone Radio TV dot com.
We'll be back in two minutes. Don't go away, Share
(06:35):
shot Share Excellnation. Jeff Cass is our special guest. He
is the author of Columbine, a True Crime Story. His
(06:58):
website is ww do Jeffcassauthor dot com. Jeff, why did
you decide to write the book Columbine A True Crime Story?
Speaker 7 (07:09):
Well?
Speaker 5 (07:09):
I felt that after reporters really from all over the
world started leaving after that first month or so following
the shootings. I felt that there was still information I
could get that other people were not getting. We didn't
have a full enough picture of the killers themselves or
their families, And as I mentioned before, I felt nobody
(07:32):
was exploring why these school shootings were occurring across the
country with increased frequency.
Speaker 6 (07:38):
What have we learned since Columbine, Well.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
I think we've learned to take warning signs more seriously.
For example, there was a particularly violent and bloody essay
that one of the Columbine killers turned into class two
months before the shootings, and the teacher actually flagged it,
actually talked to Dylan Creebold's parents. But you know, after
(08:04):
the shootings, lawsuits were filed and people clammed up, and
it's not really clear the full extent how much this
teacher pursued this essay and her concerns about it. But
as far as what we've learned, for example, I don't
think an essay like the one Dylan Cleebold turned in
before Columbine would be left alone again. I think whoever
(08:30):
got a hold of that essay in this day and age,
whether it's a teacher, a classmate, a parent, a school official,
or police officer, I think they would pursue it much
further more to the ends of the earth than before Columbine.
Speaker 6 (08:45):
What do you think some of these signs are that
parents and teachers should look for, or that would be
actions being taken by the youth of today that would
deserve immediate attention.
Speaker 5 (08:59):
Well, you know, it's it's like the essay I just
mentioned when somebody turns in an essay about somebody who,
in this case, actually looked like the Columbine killer, was
the same height, dressed like him, was left handed, just
like Dylan Creebold was, and killed methodically, kills preps for
(09:21):
no real apparent reason. You know, when you see stuff
like that, you should do something. And in the case
of the Aurora shooting we have now in Colorado, apparently
the suspect bought six thousand rounds of ammunition around the
two months prior to the shootings. And I haven't seen
(09:43):
yet that he had any history of being a hunter,
you know, of you know, being interested in guns as
a hobby before this. So when somebody does something like
that with no history and you know, suddenly buy six
thousand rounds of ammunition, maybe something's going on there.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
According to the ATF, there are no ways of tracking
these these uh, these ammunition purchases that are made online.
All the weapons that he purchased were legal purchases.
Speaker 5 (10:12):
Yeah, no, yeah, And that's why it's up to people
like you and me and parents and friends and teachers
to do something. You know, I guess the ATF conceivedly
could track every bullet bot or you know, but these
would be like, you know, this would have to have
some sort of complete surveillance over society to do this.
(10:35):
It just would not be a reality. So yeah, it's
up to people like you and I who see something
that is out of the ordinary, unusually violent, very odd
topt us to do something or say something.
Speaker 6 (10:47):
Then wait, let's let's go to the other side of
the coin with what happened in Wisconsin, and that was
that was a hate crime. The perpetrator deliberately sought out
the seekh or the Sheikh community was only it only
opened fire on shikes that had beards and turbans. Are
these just some of the things that we can expect
(11:09):
more of in the future where white supremacists are going
to say, hey, enough is enough, and they're going to
flex their muscle.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
Uh, you know, I don't know, I mean, it's possible
if there is this copycat effect, that white supremacists may
feel more emboldened because of what school shooters and other
mass shooters are doing. I think the white supremacist hatred
has always been there, that's nothing new, but they may
(11:40):
they may feel more emboldened.
Speaker 6 (11:43):
How about gun control? What are your views on gun control?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Well, the thing is, I'm not that's not going to
solve the problem. As we touched upon a bit, many
times these guns are obtained legally, or they're taken from
white in the case of the kids, the teenage school shooters,
they get them from a parent's home, they get them
from a relative's home, from a neighbor's home, they take
(12:08):
them from the garage, or you know, even the locked
say for the locked cabinet. So I think these shooters
are very determined. I think they're usually pretty smart and
they're going to find a way. So I don't think
that's the best avenue.
Speaker 6 (12:25):
And yet countries with gun control have a significant lower
amount of homicides caused by guns than the United States
does they do.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
But again, I don't think gun control is the only issue.
And for example, there was a great story in the
New York Times. It was about one year ago and
I blogged about it. Apparently there are these attacks on
school yards in China against school children, and in China
it is near impossible to get the gun if you're
(12:56):
a private citizen, So these attacks are occurring on chill
going with knives, with sort of blunt force weapons, baseball
bat type things. These people are going to find a way.
And we do have these mass shootings in other countries
where we see these determined shooters. Norway, yes, which was
(13:16):
I believe it's seventy seven killed, that's right. We had
winning in Germany that was about three years ago. There
are many people killed in that. And you know, both
these countries have much stricter gun control than the United States.
Speaker 6 (13:32):
So do we do? Is there is there a connection
between schoolyard bullying and the the increase in gun crimes
or crimes within the school itself. What's the what is
that the what is that the core of the problem here?
Speaker 5 (13:47):
Well, I don't think that the bullying helps, you know.
Interestingly enough, actually the Columbine Killers never mentioned the word
bullying in any of their diaries or the videotapes that
have and released. But there's many accounts of other students
saying they were bullied, and that bullying went on to
a large degree at Columbine High School. I don't think
(14:11):
in this case in Columbine it was the root cause,
but it's an aggravating factor. It doesn't help things that
they were also bullied by many accounts.
Speaker 6 (14:22):
Is there any specific demographic or geographic location where these
shootings take more are more frequent than other parts, or
is it scattered throughout the map?
Speaker 5 (14:36):
Well, with the school shootings, it definitely has occurred more
frequently in the South and the West of the United States,
So people are going to say, well, what the heck
is going on there? There's a long standing tradition. It's
called the culture of honor, and it's this sort of
chivalrous knighthood tradition of I need to defend my honor
(15:01):
and if you do not respect me, if you do
not show the respect I feel I deserve, I can
I feel it's okay to retaliate with violence.
Speaker 6 (15:11):
Where they where do they get this concept from?
Speaker 5 (15:15):
Yeah, it's you know, it's a concept that has actually
been studied by psychologists apart from school shootings, and even
before school shootings were occurring. Psychologists pinpointed this issue, and
what they say is because the South of the United
States was more settled by landed gentry, by elites who
(15:37):
felt it's very important to preserve your honor, to stand
up for your family, to stand up for your yourself.
This tradition has been passed down throughout families. Hey, you
need to defend your honor, you need to defend the
family's honor. And another really interesting twister or reason for
this is they say the South and the West was
(15:59):
there were a lot of settlers there who were herders
and they'll fay even namely pig herders. And when you
are a herder, you must defend your animals with violence
against any outside threats because that's your livelihood.
Speaker 6 (16:14):
So well, how does this spill over into human beings?
Speaker 7 (16:18):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (16:18):
Yeah, so well, these are human beings who are protecting
their herds, protecting their honor.
Speaker 6 (16:24):
I understand that. But how does this turn you know,
how does this spill over into mass shootings and mass violence?
Speaker 5 (16:32):
Sure? Sure so. What I believe is that school shooters
in the South and the West are kids who feel
their honor has been violated because they have not been
recognized as a popular kid. They haven't been recognized by
girls who want to date them. They don't have enough friends,
(16:54):
they don't have enough respect on the school yard, and
they feel it's an issue of defending their honor. Hey,
you guys didn't give me enough respect. I'm going to
retaliate against you.
Speaker 6 (17:04):
What were the home like home LIFs of these Columbine shooters?
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Was there?
Speaker 6 (17:08):
Were they dysfunctional families?
Speaker 5 (17:12):
Not on the surface, not from what we know. For
the most part, they were both two parent families, no divorces,
so you know, middle to upper middle class, no extreme
poverty or anything like that. You know, there were In
(17:34):
the case of the Kleebolds, his mom, sorry, has has
made some indications to police that her son was into
violent military type things. He had a tough look, he
liked this look. You know, she's indicated there were some
clues that he was trying to promote his toughness, be
(17:55):
a tough guy, so to speak. Chris's dad was in
the military. But you know, they don't seem to be
overly violent or you know, extreme families in any general sense.
Speaker 6 (18:12):
Wasn't there? It wasn't there a sort of connection to
the goth community with the Columbine Killers.
Speaker 5 (18:20):
You know, not really that was probably overblown and incorrect.
In the beginning, they did want trench coats to school,
but it was more because there was a clique known
as the trench Coat Mafia and they were rebels. They
were just rebels, that's what they stood for, being anti establishment,
sort of fighting back at the popular people. Fighting back,
(18:43):
whether it was you know, actual physical fighting or just
sort of saying, hey, I'm going to stand up to
the popular kids. I'm going to stand up to the teachers.
I'm not going to do what they say, or you know,
I'm not going to follow all the rules. These guys
wore trench coats, and really it started because one of
the kids got a gift of a trench coat for
(19:05):
you know, like Christmas or his birthday.
Speaker 6 (19:07):
Jeff's done by. You only have to dig our commercial break.
We'll be back on the other side of the news
Xzone Nation. Jeff cast is our special guest. He's the
author of a great book, Columbine at True Crime Story
www dot jeffcassauthor dot com. And we'll be back on
the other side of this break in about oh five
minutes from now. Don't go away. You're listening to the
(19:39):
x Zone Radio Show live vendorund the world on the
Talkstar Radio Network, x Zone Broadcast Network, UK High Definition Radio,
EURO High Definition Radio and Star Cable. Our toll free
telephone number worldwide is one eight hundred six y ten
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(20:03):
TV at hotmail dot com, and our website www dot
xone Radio TV dot com.
Speaker 8 (20:13):
It's done.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
I want sun goes down, silkod day.
Speaker 8 (20:33):
Chord to the milky way.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
You and Bababy, we could thank you something le do.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
It's the right time of the.
Speaker 8 (20:54):
Start to make is.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
It's the right time, big no use time.
Speaker 6 (21:13):
Welcome back everyone. This is the x oone. My name
is Rob McConnell. We're coming to you from our studios
in Hamilton, Ontario, worldwide, toll free one eight hundred and
six ten seven zero three five email x at Xon
Radio TV dot com, on MSN, Messenger, Xon Radio TV
at hotmail dot com, and our website www dot Xon
(21:34):
Radio TV dot com. This just in from our newsroom.
Please took him in into custoday on Monday, August the thirteenth,
after multiple people were shot near Texas A and M University.
A police official said early reports told of someone using
automatic weapons shooting people from a residence. Local news station
KBA t X is reporting multiple casualties are involved. Several
(21:57):
law enforcement of officers were among the people shot. Ronda
Seaton of the College Station A Police department told CNN
she doesn't have information on how many people were shot
or their conditions, as she said a person identified as
the gunman was in custody. The shooting happened about one
block away from the campus, seat and said the university
(22:19):
had warned people to stay away from the intersection of
well Born Road and George Bush Drive, as well as
part of Fidelity in the College Station, Texas. The crime
scene is near the football stadium Kyle Field. College Station
and Texas A and M University drew national attention tragically
when twelve people were killed and twenty seven injured when
(22:42):
the Aggie Bonfire collapsed while being constructed in nineteen ninety nine.
And that's from our newsroom and our good friends at CNN.
My guest this hour, ironically or coincidentally is Jeff Cashi
is the author of Columbine, a true crime store. His
website is www dot jeffcossauthor dot com and Jeff Walb
(23:06):
once again, welcome back. I thank you very much for
being with us today. When we look at all the
different mass shooters, is there any one string that we
can tie them all together with besides the fact that
they were basically rejects?
Speaker 5 (23:27):
Well there or they feel Yeah, they feel they've been rejected.
They you know, they may have friends and stuff, but
it's just it's the sort of lowest rung of the
social ladder, so to speak. They want vengeance. That they're angry,
and they want vengeance against people who they think have
(23:48):
wronged them or you know, for people whatever reason they
feel that they have been wronged. I don't know, but
you know, it's a perception that the world or certain
people are against them.
Speaker 6 (24:00):
But when we look at the the the victims of
these shootings, you know, if they want vengeance, why wouldn't
they target their their they're victims more selectively instead of
people who are basically innocent bystanders.
Speaker 7 (24:14):
Yeah. Well, you know, it comes to me that the
whole world is again for them, and you know the
whole world or you know, society I know it's such
a vague cliche term, but you know, they feel societies
against them, so society becomes everybody in that that Man
movie theater.
Speaker 6 (24:36):
I'm sorry, Jeff. When you were writing your book call
them Buying a true crime Story, was there anything that
you discovered in your research that that sent you for
a loop.
Speaker 7 (24:48):
One of the things that I did sell me was
what I got, For example, Illan Cleeble's apology.
Speaker 5 (24:54):
Say which I was the only person who obtained that.
Speaker 7 (24:58):
He applied to college accept at the University of Arizona.
They can get that out of the dorm room. I
was surprised at how much.
Speaker 5 (25:07):
They could also hide their anger and seem so normal.
There were definitely signs, as we've talked about, there are
plenty of signs. But like at the same time that
Dylan was turning in that extremely bloody and violent class essay,
he is writing an essay at a college application essay saying, hey,
(25:30):
I'm a great guy. I want to study computer science.
You know, he said, I've been through some I've had
some troubles, but I'm on the right track now. I
want to improve my life and just sort of that duality.
Speaker 6 (25:45):
Sounds like sounds like a bit of a multiple personality disorder.
Speaker 5 (25:50):
Yeah, it does in a way, although they haven't been
dye they call mind killers, were not diagnosed with that.
I think it's more, you know, being able to hide
their true feelings.
Speaker 6 (26:02):
What do you think educators could do because to I mean,
besides you know, getting getting more involved and making sure
that if a teacher raises a flag based on something
that a student has turned into her what can educators
do more to protect the kids, the innocent kids that
seem to be victimized once again as we're seeing now
(26:24):
in Texas by these shooters on campus.
Speaker 5 (26:27):
Well, I mean that's the key thing is to recognize
the warning signs before they happen and tell somebody, you know,
pursue it. There's certain procedures you know that schools will
go over, such as you know, evacuation drills the same
way people drill for a hurricane or an earthquake. Know
(26:51):
where the emergency exits are, uh, you know, listen for
the codes or have codes in place at your school
that will go over the intercom. If there's a shooter
found in the school, you know, how to evacuate or
barricade the classroom. If you have to, you know, sadly,
be prepared to defend yourself to some degree.
Speaker 6 (27:13):
What steps do you think law enforcement should take? You
Should we have more metal detectors in school? Should we
have more policing within the schools?
Speaker 5 (27:22):
You know, I don't think metal detectors are going to
do it. I mean you take the scenario of the
Columbine killers and they, you know, stood on a hill
just outside the school and they charged down into the
school with their guns. I mean, metal detectors aren't going
to do anything. Just like in Aurora. You know, the
(27:43):
guy went out of back door, came back in, had
his guns, and you know, a metal detector isn't going
to do it. The police have made changes, though, and
they seem to be the right changes, which is, for example,
when Columbine occurred, the idea was when you have shooters
inside a location like a school, you surround the place,
(28:07):
you make a perimeter, and you wait for the police,
psychologist or the FBI guy to come in and you
talk the person out. That's the traditional way of looking
at these things before Columbine. And a good analogy is
the way we used to deal with terrorists on airplanes.
(28:27):
The idea was, Okay, this guy is going to land
the airplane in Cuba or something or Libya, take hostages,
ask for a ransom, and then give up the hostages
once they get money or once they can fly the
plane to another country and they're done. They're not going
to kill anyone. We've learned from school shootings. These people
don't want hostages. They will possibly kill as many people
(28:51):
as they can before they stop. So police now are
trained to go in after the shooting. Don't do a perimeter,
try and talk them out. Go in if you can.
I mean, if you only have a handgun on you,
that would be foolish. But if you have a shotgun
or some sort of automatic weapon in your police car
(29:12):
and you have another officer who can accompany you, go
So that has been done. It's called the active shooter protocol,
and it's the new training. It's the default training for
these situations.
Speaker 6 (29:28):
What would you like readers to come out with after
reading your book.
Speaker 5 (29:36):
I'd like them to see the patterns why these are
occurring in also suburbs, in small towns where kids can
feel really alienated, that they're occurring in the South and
the West of the United States, and also that they
can do something. You know, if you see these warning signs,
if something you know grabs you is wrong or usually violent,
(30:01):
you should say something to somebody. You should do something.
Speaker 6 (30:05):
What have been the reviews on your book? Any of
the people who were involved in the Columbine shooting read
your book, and if so, what have their comment's been?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
And I think they say it's been the most accurate
book out there on what happened at Columbine, And you know,
there are what I portrayed is how it happened at Columbine.
Speaker 6 (30:29):
What was the hardest part about writing this book.
Speaker 5 (30:36):
Probably thinking about the pain that the victims had to
go through. I mean, you know, there's a lot of
people who didn't want to talk. And whenever people yell
at you or threatened to sue you as a reporter
or slam the door in your face, that certainly bothersome.
But you know, it's really nothing compared to thinking about
(30:58):
not only what the victim and the victims' families had
to go through at Columbine, but I think it was
exacerbated because they had to do it all in public.
You know, it's one thing to have your child shot
and killed at school, where you expected them to be
perfectly safe. But then you know, to have the media
(31:20):
asking you about it. I imagine that adds another degree
of difficulty.
Speaker 6 (31:25):
It seems at times the media goes after the gorious
stories with the most vengeance, after all, yourself being in
the media and no, especially in print. If if it bleeds,
it leads, should the media, under certain circumstances back off.
Speaker 5 (31:43):
Well, yeah, in some stories, yes, but I mean not
in these mass shootings. We can't ignore them either, and
if we ignore them, we're never going to learn anything
from them. Yeah, I think I think there probably is.
You know, maybe when we continuously cover you know, car
(32:08):
crashes or random bar fights, when yeah, when we're doing
too much violent coverage, it's not good. But I don't
think we can ignore the big stories.
Speaker 6 (32:20):
The internet. Has that been used by mass shooters as
a way of gaining notoriety or is it just another
form of multi media? Now?
Speaker 5 (32:36):
You know they've looked up like in the case of
the Virginia tech shooter, he had looked up the Columbine
shootings and you know, had some stuff about them, and
I believe he mentioned them in his one of his
videotapes that he had mailed out to the media. Actually,
(32:56):
and then there was another shooter in our Vada, Colorado
that most of us have probably forgotten about. But he
went to a church and shot and killed some people
actually in Colorado Springs, and he had looked at it.
I think he had stuff on his computer. Regarding to
Columbine killers, they do look to them. I mean, it's
(33:16):
hard to deny that there's any there's no copycat effect,
but I think, you know, again, they want vengeance. They're
angry at people. I don't think they necessarily want fame.
They want to get back at people.
Speaker 6 (33:30):
But if they want to get back at people, as
you've said before, why don't they get back at the
people that are causing them all this anger, all this
hatred instead of junk Q public. That's what I can't understand.
Speaker 5 (33:46):
Yeah, well, again, to them, the whole world is against them.
If you're an outcast, if you don't have a lot
of friends, if you can't find friends, you know, if
you can't get a date to the prom, everyone is
against you. You know, it's not just the girl who
(34:08):
said no. You know, it's not just the guy who
wouldn't hang out with you and be your friend, but
they feel that this is symptomatic of all the whole
world being against them.
Speaker 6 (34:19):
All right, But if this is the case, and if
this is how they feel that the whole world is
against them, wouldn't there be something at home that mom
or dad should be able to clue into that something
is not right with their son or their daughter, that
they need to spend more time and attention on this child,
and if necessary, get the child on the proper help.
Speaker 5 (34:40):
You would think, you would think, But you know, in
the case of the Columbine killers, nobody was ever prosecuted
as being an accomplice to them or knowing about their plans.
And there's no indication in their diaries or their videos
that they told anyone that's secret. But that doesn't and
(35:02):
I think, yeah.
Speaker 6 (35:03):
But if I'm not mistaken, that doesn't match the profile
of the other mass shooters.
Speaker 5 (35:10):
In the sense of that they dropped.
Speaker 6 (35:12):
Clues well, that they were so secretive.
Speaker 5 (35:16):
Oh well, I mean, look at Holmes in Aurora, James Holmes.
I mean, I don't know that he told anybody about
his plans either. And I think you also have the
situation here where it's sort of a vicious circle because
these people get angry and frustrated because they're isolated from society.
(35:37):
And then when you are isolated, you have so many
fewer people left to notice the warning.
Speaker 6 (35:42):
Signs true, very true. You and I have to take
our final break for this hour. Jeff, thanks very much
for joining us. Great talking to you, excell nation. Jeff
cast is our special guest who's the author of Columbine,
a True Crime Story. His website is www dot Jeff
Cass author dot com. And we'll be back on the
(36:02):
other side of this commercial break as the X Zone
continues from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. When we
come back, I'll see if the newsroom has an update
for me on the shooting in Texas. My name is
Rob McConnell. This is the X Zone. I'll be back
with Jeff Cass on the other side of this break.
Don't gowad the milky way.
Speaker 8 (36:27):
You and me, baby, we could think of something that do.
Speaker 5 (36:45):
Don't call you.
Speaker 4 (36:49):
Down. Name on duc You're gonna leave, gonna take that
big one.
Speaker 6 (37:09):
Welcome back, every one. Jeff Cass is our special guest
this hour. He is the author of Columbine, a True
Crime Story. His website is www Dot jeffcassauthor dot com.
That's www dot jeffcass author dot com. And just for
the latest UH on the update of the Texas shooting.
(37:30):
Police took a man into custoday Monday afternoon after multiple
people were shot near Texas A and M University. A
police official said several law enforcement officers were among the
people shot. Ronda sat And of the College Staton Policeman
Department told CNN she didn't have any information on how
many people were shot or their conditions. Once again, this
(37:52):
is the let me see, this is an incident that
is happening as we're talking right now Acusta. A suspect
has been taken into custody, and there were several people shot,
conditions unknown at this time near Texas A and M University.
(38:14):
So here we go again, Jeff, another shooting. You and
I have been talking about Columbine, we were talking about Aurora,
we were talking about the temple in where was it, Wisconsin,
and bang here we've got another one. And it seems
to be like it's just not in the United States,
but it's also over the world. And you and I
(38:35):
were talking also about the shrewder in Norway and apparently
report just out says that officials could have stopped what
happened in Norway. We don't have the total lay information
on that report. But is the world going crazy?
Speaker 5 (38:52):
Yeah? No, I don't think it's going crazy. But I think,
you know what's the issue is that one of things
we're trying to get you're trying to get at, is
that you know, why are these things occurring with such frequency?
And I think the idea is is that the door
has been opened to this as a possibility. I mean
(39:14):
twenty years ago, if you were an outsider, an outcast
in high school or you know, in your life in general,
I just don't think a mass shooting was on your
radar as a possible solution. And you know what happens is, sadly,
the idea becomes a real possibility to people, something like
(39:38):
Combine happens. It's cemented in the really the worldwide consciousness.
And I think the term is it becomes the art
of the possible. Somebody else has done it, and now
it's possible. It's on your radar screen and it becomes
one of your solutions to your problems.
Speaker 6 (39:59):
Just getting news in here. Jeff At one officer and
civilian were killed in today's shooting. Yeah, Jeff, want to
thank you so much for joining us. It's been a
great pleasure talking to you. Congratulations on your book, and
I'd love to have the opportunity of speaking to you
again in the future. Okay, thank you, Take care of Jeff,
x Oon Nation. Jeff Cass has been our guest of
(40:20):
this hour. Www Dot jeffcassauthor dot com. That's www Dot
jeffcassauthor dot com. He's the author of Columbine, a true
crime story. I'll be back on the other side of
this commercial break. Wow, that was kind of loud. Woke
me up. Thanks, Craig. I'll be back on the other
(40:44):
side of this commercial break with the news at six
and a half minutes past the hour as the X
Zone continues from our studios in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada one
eight hundred sixty ten seven zero three five worldwide toll
free email x on at xone, radio time dot com,
on MSN, Messenger, X Zone Radio TV at hotmail dot com,
(41:05):
and our website xon Radio TV dot com. Oh boy,
thanks a lot, Craig.
Speaker 4 (41:11):
I needed that.
Speaker 6 (41:12):
We'll be back on the other side of this commercial
break at six and a half minutes past the top
of the hour. My name is Rob McConnell. This is
the X Zone. Don't go away.
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