November 28, 2025 • 54 mins
Are We Picking A Fight With An 11 Ton Alien? - Robert Buettner's best-selling debut novel, “Orphanage,” 2004 Quill Award nominee for Best SF/Fantasy/Horror novel, was called the Post-9/11 generation’s “Starship Troopers” and has been adapted for film. He was a 2005 Quill nominee for Best New Writer, and “Balance Point” is his eighth novel. Buettner ( http://robertbuettner.com/ ) is a former U.S. Army intelligence officer and a National Science Foundation Fellow in Paleontology. He was attorney of record in roughly 3,000 cases and has practiced in U.S. federal courts, administrative tribunals, and in 13 states and five foreign countries.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is the X Zone Broadcast Network, broadcasting worldwide on
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(00:26):
on the X Zone Broadcast Network, visit us at www
dot XZB dot mat.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Oh Henry, Welcome to the X Zone, a place where
fact is fiction and fiction is reality.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Now, if he's your host, Rob McConnell, welcome back, every one.
(01:22):
This is the Xxone. I am Rob McConnell. We're coming
to you from our broadcast center in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada,
worldwide toll free eight hundred and six ten seven zero
three five, email xone at xon Radio TV dot com,
on all social media sites xone Radio TV, and our
main website where you can listen to the Xzone twenty
(01:43):
four seven three sixty five www dot xon Radio TV
dot com. And you're listening to the Xzone on the
Xzone Broadcast Network and on the Starcom Radio Network. Now
here's a question we're going to ask you all. Are
we picking a fight with an eleven ton alien? Well,
(02:05):
while NASA's top sign to say we will likely find
signs of alien life in the next decade. The world's
most famous physicist, Stephen Hawking, and a Russian tycoon, Juri Miller,
seek to hasten that discovery now. Due to the spontaneity
of life's occurrences in the universe, Hawking says there must
be other examples of life beyond Earth because space is infinite.
(02:30):
He and Milner are jump starting a one hundred million
dollar hunt for this life, even though Hawking has reiterated
that an advanced alien civilization would have no problem wiping
out the human race the way a human might wipe
out a colony of ants. Now, our guest this hour
(02:51):
is Robert Boutner. His best selling debut al novel, Orphanage
twenty thousand and four Quill Award nominee for Best Science
Fiction Fantasy Horror. Novel was called the post nine to
eleven Generations Starship Troopers and has been adapted for film.
He was a two thousand and five Quill nominee for
the Best New Writer and Balance Point In is his
(03:14):
eighth novel, Wow. He is a former US Army intelligence
officer and a National Science Foundation Fellow in paleontology. He
was an attorney of record in roughly three thousand cases,
and he's practiced in US federal courts, administrative tribunals, and
in thirteen states and five foreign countries. Joining me now
(03:36):
is Robert Boutner and Robert Welcome to the X Zone.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Good evening, Rob, it's great to be with you. Thanks
for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
It's my pleasure, sir. Congratulations on your books. Number one.
Number two scares the hell out of me when I
hear Stephen Hawking say that these aliens might just kind
of wipe us out as we wipe out a colony
of ants. Do you think it's a good idea for
us go seeking aliens, even if it's only to listen
to them, like said he does or claims that you do.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Okay, well, I think first let's amplify a little bit
more about what you were mentioning at the outset, which
is what is new in the field of listening. And
as you said, what's new is that in late July,
(04:27):
Jury Milner, who is an internet tycoon Russian internet tycoon,
he did, in fact pledge to spend one hundred million
dollars over the next ten years, and the program that
he sponsored with a co sponsorship, at least in a
celebrity way that Stephen Hawking was giving lending to the program.
(04:53):
The program is called Breakthrough Listen, and Breakthrough Listen is
going to watch because we we have some new technologies,
new optical technologies, and mostly listen by radio astronomy for
intelligent life beyond the Solar System. Now, just as you
pointed out, SETI, the Search for extraterrestrial intelligence has been
(05:16):
actively doing exactly that since nineteen sixty and SETI hasn't
heard a peep. So the question I suppose that we
ought to clear up right off the bat is so
what's new here? And what's new here is the one
(05:36):
hundred million dollars mainstream astronomy has been treating searching for
aliens as kind of this the kookie stepchild for well
since nineteen sixty when it started. And so Seti's been
living paycheck to paycheck longer than our blit our presidential
(05:58):
candidate Marco Rubio. And now that's now. Now that's going
to change, and that's really a great thing. But that's
not the only new thing that's that's going on there.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
What else is new, sir?
Speaker 5 (06:14):
Now?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Yeah, and the other the other new thing is is
the star power that's being brought to the program. Now, Hawking,
Stephen Hawking, after all, for most of us, personifies the
smartest person in the room, and he's lending his celebrity
to the project, and so are lots of other prominent scientists. Heck,
(06:36):
it's it's an impressive catalog. And that's a great thing too.
Now I suppose the question then becomes, well, why is
this great? And what's the upside if we are if
we're successful, and what's the greatest single benefit to mankind
(07:00):
of discovering an advanced alien race? For me at least,
I guess that maybe Donald Trump would have to quit
claiming he's the smartest being in the universe, but assuming
but leaving that aside, and you know, addressing more seriously,
if we could, for example, eavesdrop on home improvement Alpha
(07:21):
Centauri and learn how to convert old newspapers into a
flux capacitor, that would really be a worldbnder for us,
you know. Yeah, But you know, if you really stop
and think about it, we're talking about light years of
travel time between messages gulfs in language in so many
(07:46):
ways that that kind of specific benefit is really unlikely.
What if we discover that we're not alone in the universe?
The real likely worldbnder is going to be philosophical. Stephen
Hawking said, we're intelligent, We're alive, we want to know
(08:07):
our horizons. Our sense of self as a species is
going to shift in more ways than we really can
even begin to count.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Well, let me ask you a question, sir. What happens
after one hundred million dollars have spent and they haven't
found anything? They drop another hundred million dollars into the project,
and once again, nothing is found.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Yeah, I think I think the important thing to realize
there is that how is really how vast all the
dimensions that we're dealing with here are I mean, the
vastness of the universe, the vast number of first off
(08:52):
stars that are out there. And then on top of
that also we've got questions of timing as well. For example,
Earth's been around for how many billion years? And since
when have have we been Have we been as a
civilization capable of looking in a serious way out into
(09:18):
the out into the universe less than one hundred years
less than an eyeblink, So we don't know civilizations could
could come and go, and they could have been they
could have been screaming at us a thousand years ago
or two hundred years ago. We wouldn't have had any
(09:39):
idea they were there. So I think we don't we
do ourselves a disservice if we think, if we presume
that if we spend allows one hundred million dollars, that
we're going to you know, we're going to be able
to close the door. We can't can be able to
(10:01):
We aren't going to be able to prove that negative.
I think kind of what your question kind of goes
to something called the Fermi paradox. So are you familiar
with that? Would your listeners?
Speaker 5 (10:13):
Because his place?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Okay, well, first thing is Fermi. Enrico Fermi was a physicist,
A brilliant physicist. He's best known for having created the
first nuclear chain reaction in the late nineteen thirties in
a laboratory underneath the bleachers in the University of Chicago
(10:40):
football stadium, and from that we, you know, we got
atomic energy. And Fermi was he was having lunch in
the cafeteria. I guess I have this vision that it
was like the Big Bang theory or something, and he
sits down with all of his colleagues, and they're all
talking about how there must be life because in in
(11:04):
the in the universe, because of the vast number of stars,
the vast spaces, and so forth, And for me, says, well,
but the question is, then where is everybody? You know,
if there's if there are all these civilizations out there,
why have we seen no evidence whatsoever of any of this?
(11:25):
And uh? And that I think is is kind of
what we need to recognize, is that the fact that
we haven't seen anybody, the fact that nobody's shown up
on our doorstep isn't really uh, isn't really proof of anything.
There are a lot of reasons for that too, a
lot of answers to the Fermi paradox. We just touched
(11:48):
on one, which is the possibility or the or the
difficulty of simply timing. We've been around as a as
a species for million, three year a million, three hundred
thousand years, give or take half a million, and you know,
and during most of that time, nobody would have known
(12:10):
we were here. And if they did see us down here,
they wouldn't care because all we were doing is beating
each other on the head with rocks. So that's not
we've got that problem. We've got the problem that we've
got this tiny window when a civilization is able to
(12:31):
reach out to the universe, and we don't know how
long that window stays open. There are any number of
things that can happen. You know, we could blow ourselves
up tomorrow quite quite literally and realistically, we could. You know,
there can be racial senescence. There can frankly be the
the time at which we say, you know what, this
(12:52):
isn't worth it as it is now unless an Internet
billionaire comes along and says, I'm going to kick you
in a hundred million dollars, we can't find the funding
to even try to find extra solar life. So, uh,
there are any number of reasons why the Fermi paradox
really doesn't It doesn't trouble me, at least it doesn't
(13:15):
trouble most science fiction writers.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
No, that's that's because that's what science fiction is based on,
the possibility. Without without the possibility, there's no science fiction.
And this is what concerns me is you have the
people at at SETI who have been trying for years
and you know, working with Berkeley and working with all
(13:39):
the SETI at home people. They have been scanning the
different frequencies for years and years and years. I've had
the pleasure of meeting Seth Shostak and having him on
the show a number of times. Really yeah, And I've
said to Seth, I said, well, what happens? I said,
It's it's great that you're you're doing this, Seth. But
what happens if the signals are not being sent out
(14:01):
by a carbon based unit. Let's say that it's that
civilizations on other planets are of let's say, silicon based. Yeah,
they're transmitting something that you're not listening for.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
No. I, I mean, you know, if you if we
want to you know, for example, just take take another possibility,
just look at the uh look for example, and again
there there there as many scenarios here as they're probably
as there are extrasolar planets, and that number is now
(14:36):
already up in the tens of billion.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
But huh, if you if you consider that, for example,
hypothesize a world that subsists in the aquasphere rather than
the atmosphere, rather than suburially like like we exist. If
if you can consider the life that's evolved on Earth
(15:03):
in the atmosphere. Uh, you know, whales, dolphins and so
forth communicate by echo location. Uh, they probably haven't seen
the stars. Maybe they have. I don't know what they
think about them, but you know, you wouldn't expect them
to communicate in in that in that way. Now, one
(15:26):
of the things that that break through, Listen, the the
Milner Hawking Initiative is doing differently. Uh, they're gonna they're
going to fund some of the new technologies, and they're
going to fund some of the new optical methods of looking.
For example, U, there are a lot of folks out
(15:46):
there that are postulating now that what we've got, uh,
what we may have out there is some sort of
an interstellar internet where information is carried by beans. Now
I'm not really quite sure why we should all of
a sudden get on board that train, but they're saying, well,
(16:09):
so we need to be looking for that because that
seems like a really good way to communicate. Well, I
don't know, maybe, but so they're gonna be They're gonna
be doing a lot of things like that. But and
that'll be different. But again, uh, the universe is just
(16:29):
so vast that that not finding something, not not hearing
something is really not going to disprove much of anything.
I think, really the the question I think that is
troubling and intriguing is what happens if we do find
(16:53):
something you know, and and that I and that I
think is like I say, we've got we've got the
good side, like we talked about before, and then we've
also got the downside, and.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
But how but how will we know if we hear
anything that is worthwhile if we've never heard what they're
listening for it before? Like, how will they.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
Know they're using?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
How you know they're they're using?
Speaker 5 (17:23):
How the.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I'm missing? How are we going to know if there
is anything that is being transmitted that is a message
from another star system, another galaxy, another universe when what
we are doing is putting all our eggs in one basket,
using our science looking for advanced scientific messages, Like it
(17:52):
makes no sense.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
No, I I think I think that point is well taken.
I don't know that. I think Miller's point is that
you know, we have to keep trying. You know, we're
just too darn curious to just say, oh, well, we
probably wouldn't know what we were listening to anyway. Let's
(18:16):
just let's just wait and see if they you know,
if we wake up one morning and the mothership is overhead,
then we'll know and if we were in Basically that, frankly,
is the attitude of most of the establishment. You know,
William Proxmire Center in the States, oh gosh, probably twenty
(18:40):
years ago, that was he used to hand out something
every year called the Golden Fleece Award for the most
wasteful government spending. Right and at that time the government
had kicked in about like seventy thousand dollars to set
it or something like that. And know, and he made
(19:01):
he made a great this that you know, and as
we hear all the time, uh, you know, we've got
we've got so many problems in this country. People are starving,
you know, there are these things, you know, we've our
roads are crumbling. We just can't afford something that's this speculative.
And Miller's answer to that is number one, well it's
(19:24):
my money. Uh. And and number two, Uh, you know,
it's important that we at least try. And Hawking agrees
with that. Hawking agrees with the trying part, the listening part.
Hawking and I have serious concerns about about the active
(19:48):
phase of an investigation like that, trying to transmit out there,
broadcast our existence.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Well, because I agree, because what we may be broadcasting
in one way, maybe taking a totally different way on
the other end, or else we're going to be sending
out a beacon saying, hey, we're here.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, that's exactly the that's
exactly the worry. I mean if the first if the
first response we get back is say, by the way,
are you guys available in extra crispy?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Also, yeah, put a whole new meaning on McDonald's right,
that would.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Be that'd be a very discouraging message to receive. And
that's you know, that's that is a troubling aspect of it.
And actually it's kind of interesting that Hawking is lending
his celebrity to the Listen project, because in twenty ten
(20:56):
he said, as you mentioned at the outset, he said
that really the only predictive analogs that we can apply
to first contact are mankind's historic contacts between advanced and
less developed human cultures. And most of us know how
that turned out. I mean, you know, Native Americans meet
(21:17):
smallpox and oh, by the way, this is General Custer
and so it's you know, unfortunately, the the record, such
as it is, isn't very encouraging. One of the things
that happened, or that one of the great uh uh
(21:40):
divining divides, if you will, in science fiction has been
the the Arthur C. Clark version, which is this you know,
Space Odyssey version where aliens are mysterious and benign. Uh.
And then of course you know the H. G. Wells
and and progeny up through frankly my books, where where
(22:05):
you know, the aliens really don't like us very much
and they're they're a lot better equipped than we are,
and uh, and we kind of get our butts kicked
for a while.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Well, doesn't it make sense that if the aliens are here,
they're going to be better equipped than we are.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
That's that's that's a uh, that's an excellent point, and
it's you know, the the answer would seem to be,
of course they would be you know, and and indeed,
there if they if they can get here, they're probably
so advanced that you know, they they wouldn't they wouldn't
view uh, wiping us out much more differently than we
(22:46):
would view landing on a planet and crushing some of
the lichens. Uh, you know, under the under the spaceship.
So uh, you just see, it becomes very difficult to justify.
I mean, as I said, it's already difficult for our
(23:08):
institutions to justify spending on onlooking. But the thing that's well,
the thing that I find interesting is what we are
doing and have done with regard to the question of
who's in charge of whether and how we do introduce
(23:31):
ourselves if we do hear something back and you know,
I mean, is it the United Nations?
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Well, is it? You know, well, doesn't the United Nations
already have a department that was set up to be
the the emissaries for planet Earth.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
I think that's probably true. I'm not sure if that's
apocryphal or not. I kind of have a feeling that
I don't know where their office is. I don't I
don't see much evidence of them. I don't. I haven't
run across them in any of the research that I've
that I've done for my books. I mean, broll, I know,
(24:12):
you know, you could have fifty guys who get together
in crowdfund a radio telescopic transmitter speaking for the human race.
I mean, you know, Donald Trump could end up deciding
he wants to speak for the human race. But actually,
the the Miller Hawking Initiative does have a part of
(24:34):
its program that that addresses that they start out with
the program as it's Breakthrough Listen, right, there's a second
part which is called Breakthrough Message. And again maybe your
listeners aren't exactly familiar with Breakthrough Message and what that
is is it is a contest to create the message
(24:58):
that will be sent and for a prize of one
million dollars. Now you know the way I view that is,
after one point three million years of evolution, after inventing
the calculus and landing men on the moon, the first
message that the human race sends to the stars will
(25:20):
be the one composed by the last contestant not voted off.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
The Island's scary.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
And I think it is. I mean, we really, frankfully,
there isn't really any plan, if you. Jill I can't
ever remember if her name is pronounced Tater or Tartar,
who was the uh the director of SETI for a
few years, said that she said, yeah, well, well we
(25:48):
have a plan. You know, we're gonna we're going to
issue press releases. She said, we have a bottle of
champagne and the refrigerator uh at you know, at the
Hat Creek Radio Observatory. It's you know, I mean, but
that's kind of as far as the as the plan
really goes. The uh you know, you you can envision
(26:10):
and I think a lot of people, a lot of
us sort of assume that there's a plan. And the
reason a lot of us assume there's a plan is
because we saw Contact. Yes, yeah, right, that was that
was the nineteen ninety seven movie where Jodie Foster got
cheated out of revealing alien intelligence by James Woods and
mediocre special effects. Yeah. And uh and and that's the thing.
(26:36):
We kind of all assume that, you know, that that
everybody's going to get together and the President's going to
address the nation and you know, and he's going to
address the United Nations, and we're all going to get
together and we're going to you know.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
And don't don't forget. We're going to have marshmallows. We're
going to have marshmallows. We're going to have a bonfire,
a guitar, hold hands in that thing, come by out.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah. It's assumed that a lot of those kinds of
things will happen. I don't know, you know, actually though
a lot of the worries may it may already be
too late. I mean, we've been leaking meet the Kardashians
in two and a half men at the space at
the speed of light for years now, you know, And
(27:23):
I mean any intelligent species is going to view that
as an act of war, right there? Oh you know,
so you know, and so there's there are those kinds
of issues. In fact, to go back to what actually
Contact was based on the Carl Sagan's attempted a novel,
and it was a pretty neat novel actually by the
(27:46):
same name. And as they pointed out or as one
of the events in Contact, well, I'm let's not get
into that anymore. But what I think as they say
(28:06):
that we've we've got here, is that, you know, it's
still it's still a search that we ought to be making.
I don't think we're going to face the problem of
having found something. Maybe we will, but that's not really
what I expect is going to come out of it.
(28:30):
But I think as long as people like mister Milner
and mister Hawks and Professor Hawking say let's let's keep looking,
I'm you know. I'm on board with that. I'm just
not so much on board with the broadcasting part.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Robert, you and I have to take a small commercial break.
Please don by great having you on the show, sir.
I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation. Our guest is Robert Butner,
and he is the author of Orphan as well as
Let Me See Here. It was nominated in two thousand
(29:06):
and four for the Best Science Fiction Fantasy Horror novel
was called The Post nine to eleven Generation Star Trip
Starship Troopers and has been adapted for a film. Now
his website www dot Robert Butner dot com. That's r
O b E R T b U E T T
n E R dot com. And we'll be back on
(29:26):
the other side of this short commercial set as we continue.
We're right here in the XO from our broadcast center
in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Don't go away, We'll be right back.
Speaker 5 (29:41):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
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selling book, Secret to Everything at no cost by going
to Secret to Everything dot Com forward slash x Zone.
That's right, Transformation can start now. Just go to Secret
(33:28):
to Everything dot com forward slash x Zone and receive
doctor Kimberly's book for free. My name is Michael Tsar,
Canada's leading a mentalist from Toronto, Ontario.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Hi, my name is Florida and you're listening to my dad,
Ron McConnel on the exone. This is Psychic Dorothy from
Saint Catharine's and you're listening to Rob McConnell. Hello, my
name is Holly Reeves, an astrologer from Astro for You,
and you're listening to Canada's number one paranormal radio show,
The X Zone with Rob mcconough. Welcome to the X Zone,
(34:10):
a place where fact is fiction and fiction is reality.
Now here's your host, Rob mcca. Welcome back everyone, This
is the X Zone. I am Rob McConnell. Before we
get back to our guest this hour, i'd just like
(34:31):
to remind everyone that Wednesday, September thirtieth from eight pm
Eastern until ten pm Eastern here in the X Zone
the Debate of the UFO Century. Stanton T. Friedman, the
great great great great great great great grandfather of ethology,
is going to be debating the Billy Meyer case with
(34:52):
the North American representative of Billy Meyer, Michael Horn. That
is September thirtieth, eight pm until ten pm Eastern, right
here in the X Zone on the Starcom Radio Network
and the xone Broadcast Network. Robert Butner is our special
guest this hour. Www dot Robert Butner dot com. Robert,
(35:16):
what is your personal take on all the different UFO
reports that seem to be coming from various parts of
the world, and if these UFO reports have any credibility whatsoever?
Why are we looking to listen to a signal when apparently,
(35:36):
according to a lot of people, et is here.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Well, let's see. I have to tell you that I
I'll show my age here. As a kid, I could
not get enough of Project Blue Book and read every
scrap of everything I could get my hands on. I
(36:03):
you know, I would. I would love to think that
there are underground hangars at Area fifty one and that
they've got a mothership down there. And bouncers and the whole,
the whole nine yards. And the thing is, though it
(36:24):
there there are some very credible explanations that that tended
to dismiss a lot of those reports. And depending on
how you want to take them, you can say, well,
you know, I don't buy it. But the problem is,
(36:45):
we just I don't think we've really seen the kind
of of of information that makes me think that that
UFOs are really coming here from elsewhere. I'm going to
need a little bit more before I'm gonna I'm gonna
(37:06):
jump on that train. Uh I I think I think
For example, Uh, the most I found more credible the
the hypothesis that was postulated in kind of an underappreciated
film UH called Lived. I repeat, not the part about
(37:29):
the time travel, but the idea that, uh, you know,
we're just as likely to have some organism wind up
here because it, you know it, it wandered in on
a meteorite. And uh so, I just as I say,
I just don't, I don't. I don't see it from
(37:50):
what I can tell, from what I can read, Uh,
there's no credible evidence that there's any that there's ever
been even an an an extra solar objects that's landed
on the Earth. You know, there is if there's been
an extra there have been a lot of report of all.
There have been a few reports of what people thought
(38:11):
were extrasolar meteorites, for example, and by and large those
have proven based on spectrographic and other analysis that know
they're actually they're actually from within the solar system. I'd
like to believe that there's something in the Solar system
(38:33):
besides cold dead rocks. But but that's that's becoming a
tough cell based on the empirical evidence that we're seeing.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
See I have I have a problem with that as well.
So I'm the first one to say, listen, I want
to believe, but prove it to me.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
You know. Yeah, I think we're getting into the at
some point there. I understand the concept of faith. I
understand it particularly you know, in a in a religious context,
but uh if U f O if ufology uh starts
to become a religion, well let's just call it that,
(39:12):
uh if. And if that's you know, if that's the
best you've got, then you know, maybe maybe we need
to shelve those books in it, you know, a different
section of the bookstore. But you know, I'd love to see.
Oh boy, I mean, I can't wait. I I don't know.
I can't tell you how many stories I've I've written
(39:35):
that that turn on. In fact, there's a free novellette
that i've that's on up on Bain dot com right
now that UH that that deals with UH and an
extra solar object, that talisman, that that comes into human possession,
and those things can happen, And that, of course is
(39:59):
one of the things that science fiction can do for us.
I mean, it doesn't really predict what happens in the future.
What it does is it reflects the zeitgeist, the spirit
of the time in which it's written. But anyway, as
I said, I think, I think we just need to
we need to either put it. If we're going to
put it on a scientific footing, then let's you know,
(40:23):
let's bring forward the information and let's have a debate
about that. But if it's just going to be you,
you know, you either believe or you don't believe, then
we're getting into a different area.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Why do you think there so many people today are
seeking answers to the problems that we face here on
this planet in the stars. You know, you've got the people.
I've had people on the shows who've told me that
there are eighty one different species of extraterrestrials here on
(40:57):
the planet.
Speaker 5 (40:57):
Now.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
I've had a gentleman come on the show last week
who told me that Queen Elizabeth and other members of
the royal family are really reptilians in disguise that I've
had another gentleman on the show who said that as
a member of the United States Air Force, he actually
took extraterrestrials from Area fifty two got Area fifty one,
(41:20):
Area fifty two into Las Vegas as their tour guide
because their interstellar ship would land in Area fifty two
for refueling and picking up new passengers. You know, I
could go on and on and on. They seem to
be searching for something because whenever you ask any of
(41:40):
them for proof, there is none, and yet they are
so convinced that what they are saying is real.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Yeah, and I think I think, well, you know, I
don't want to reign on any parades, especially not a
parade that I really really really want to be part of.
So but I I just you know, I I think
it's I think it's a little bit like I've had
(42:15):
similar conversations with with people of various organized faiths who uh,
who have the same sort of literal certainty about their
particular version of history, you know, and it doesn't seem
(42:37):
like there can really be several of them out there,
so uh, you know, I have some I have some
difficulty with it. I don't, I don't have any trouble.
I think that's probably why I why I gravitate to
writing science fiction, which is a field where there's enough
(42:58):
science to hang my hat on so I can suspend
my disbelief and h And I think that's what my
readers are looking for, people who who want to go
and there are you know, so very many of them
who want to go in the direction of you know,
vampires and zombies and and things like that. Okay, you know,
(43:22):
if if that floats your boat as far as storytelling,
then by all means, you know, enjoy We actually George R. R. Martin,
who actually used to write as much science fiction as
as he did fantasy. Uh. You know, George says that
(43:45):
with regard to that, basically, when you when you construct
a story with a science fiction story fantasy story, and
obviously he's expert in constructing both. He said, well, the
basic story is like building a house. You know, you've
got a foundation, you've got you know, you've got wall
structures and so forth. And he said, and then whether
(44:09):
what you what you put in there is furniture. That's
what distinguishes between fantasy and science fiction, he said, you know,
when you really come down to it. Uh, you know,
he pushed the button for the hyper drive and then
isn't really that much different from he casts the spell
(44:29):
and then and uh, And I think I think that's
that's kind of that's part of it. Some of us
really like to have our faith cloaked with with an
extension of of science, and some of us, some of
us find it in other places. So I, like I said,
(44:51):
I I tend to and people who enjoy my books
tend to tend to find the tend to find what
satisfies and want helps him suspend their disbelief in at
least a basis in science.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Let me ask you this question, sir, Should America be
more entrepreneurial when it comes to space?
Speaker 4 (45:13):
Yeah, well, I'll tell you it's uh, this goes to uh,
this goes to a point that that's been made for well,
really since since the field has been around. And uh,
the the guy who who I'm very flattered to have
my fiction compared to sometimes is Robert Heinlein. Oh yeah,
and high and Hindline. Of course, you know that NASA
(45:36):
struck a medal in his honor because so many NASA
employees got into the field because of his science fiction
in the thirties forties on up through the through the
eighties when he passed away. And uh, you know, and
and uh, Hindline always based his uh, his his work
(46:02):
in uh in the science of the time. And uh
and I think, uh he was he was successful because
of that, and we've seen that we've seen that go
forward since then. And uh so, I don't know, I'm
not I'm not sure if I've really answered your question, but.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Yeah, I know with with what is going on, you know,
you've you've got the the different aeronautic companies that are
that are kind of stretching their wings and they want
to get part to get into the space space race
because it's it's going to have a lot of good opportunities.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Yeah, and and and that that actually that that's the
way that Heinlin always envisioned that it would happen, you know,
and I don't think and and we're starting to see
it a little bit, you know, uh uh space x
Elon Muskin space X for example. But the thing is,
it's just so you know, these these kinds of things,
(47:06):
these are huge efforts. For example, we were talking earlier
about the Breakthrough Listen program and how Milner was going
to invest one hundred million dollars and you know, all
the search for extraterrestrial intelligence people are just absolutely over
the moon about that because that's so much money for them.
(47:27):
And yet you know, one hundred million dollars won't get
you very far if you're actually trying to get beyond
near Earth orbit, I won't get you very far at all.
So to go back to the early history of SETI,
I mean they were living hand to mouth. And the
(47:47):
biggest thing that had happened in terms of funding I
think with SETI was when Paul Allen, the Microsoft i'll
call him a co founder who who owns the Seattle
Seahawks and is you know, capable of full answer piece,
kicked in ten million dollars to build the Hat Creek
(48:10):
or to build the initial phase of the Hat Creek
radio observatory in northern California. And so I think that
when you say, I think we are entrepreneurial in space
as much as a society can be. But I think
it's just that the job is just too vast. I
(48:35):
just don't see how it can happen unless as a
society we find a reason we need to get out there.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
Do you think that we should continue our manned space
missions to the moon or should we just leave the
mod alone and get onto bigger and better things.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
Well, at this point there have been a lot of
a lot of hypocause he's put forth about reasons why
it might make economic sense to uh to go to
the moon and too uh and to exist on the moon.
But frankly, uh, you know so far one thing about it. Uh,
(49:17):
you know, I'm kind of a believer in the free
market in the sense that you know, if you know,
if if there's a reason for it, if somebody can
make a buck doing it, they're probably going to try
to do it. And even if they if they just
think they are then they'll take the chance, they'll take
the risk, and they'll uh and they'll persuade people to
go along with them. And uh, we just don't see
(49:40):
that happening. And I think the same thing. The problem.
Uh what one of the characters one of my books says,
you know that that war is uh is to invention
as manure is to marigold, and and that's you know, unfortunately,
(50:02):
that's that's kind of that's kind of the truth. When
we had you know, we didn't go to the moon.
You know, the reason the reason that when we when
we got to the moon there were American flag patches
on the guy's uniforms wasn't because everybody thought it looked nice.
I mean, it was because we were making a statement.
(50:24):
And the only reason that we went to the moon
really was was political.
Speaker 5 (50:30):
You know.
Speaker 4 (50:31):
We we needed to because we thought we had a
good system and those other guys had a system that
was going to wind up on the ash heep of history.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
Well plus plus Russia had already beaten the crap out
of America in the space race. Anyway.
Speaker 4 (50:47):
Yeah, yeah, though again, the more you read about it,
the more you read, the more you realize that the
appearance of having beaten the crack out of us was
really the problem. But uh, that those things that that
the Soviets were doing, uh a weren't that far ahead
(51:09):
off where our where our projects were. We were just
kind of chunking along because nobody had lit a fire
under us. And then once the fire was lit, then uh,
you know this this economic engine, the economic engine I'll
call it of North America because I I used to
(51:31):
I used to live in Calgary for a while. So no, no,
I would. And I was just going to say the opposite.
You know, if you if you had come out, if
you to come out from Hamilton during Stampede week, we
would have cut off your tie.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Yeah, so there you going, there you go. So, uh, Robert,
I've got to I've got to. I've got to tell you,
my friend, that our time is up for tonight. But
I would love to have the opportunity of having you
back on to further discuss this and keep track of
what's going on with Professor Hawking and mister Milner. So
(52:08):
let our listeners know how they can find out more
about you and where they can get copies of your book.
Speaker 4 (52:13):
Okay, well my books there are eight novels. There's a
lot of free fiction that's available on Bain Books website.
Bain Bain is the effectively, it's an independent publisher that's
effectively the the science fiction imprint of Simon and Schuster.
(52:34):
And there are eight nob Robert Butter novels. They're available
wherever books are sold, including Amazon. Of course, they're available
as physical books. They're available in all the popular doctronic
formats and his audio books. And again, the best way
to find details about those novels and how they all
fit together in which they all do, are at my website.
(52:58):
And as you mentioned, that's www. My name Robert Butner
dot com and the last name is spelled b U
E T T n E R.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
Robert. Thank you so much for joining us, sir, and
congratulations on your great work. And this has been a
great hour. Thank you for sharing with us.
Speaker 4 (53:19):
Thank you, Rob, it was a great pleasure. I'd love
to come back.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
You will, my friend, take care of yourself, sir. Okay,
x oll Nation and Robert Butner has been our guest
this hour. That was a great conversation. Wow, I really
enjoyed that. Now, when we come back from the news
at the top of the hour, at six and a
half minutes past, I'll be talking to another young person.
(53:43):
We're going to be speaking to Angela Artemis. We're going
to be talking to her about let me see intuition.
She's an intuitive coach and we're going to talk to
her about the intuition principle. This is the X. I
Am Rob McConnell. I'll be back on the other side
of this break with some words from our fine sponsors,
(54:05):
and for those of you whose stations and networks carry
the news after your local news and national news one
eight hundred and six ten seven zero three five worldwide
toll free email Xon at xon radio tv dot com,
and all social media sites Xzone Radio TV, and our
main web site where you can listen to the X
(54:26):
Zone seven twenty four three sixty five www dot xzonradio
TV dot com. My name is Rob McConnell. This is
the X Zone. Don't go away.
This is the X Zone Broadcast Network, broadcasting worldwide on
broadcast affiliates and satellite program providers including CNN Broadcast Network,
Serious Satellite Network, Star Media, Good News Radio Network, Angel
Broadcast Network, Wiki Broadcast Network at WPBNTV. For more information
(00:26):
on the X Zone Broadcast Network, visit us at www
dot XZB dot mat.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Oh Henry, Welcome to the X Zone, a place where
fact is fiction and fiction is reality.
Speaker 3 (00:59):
Now, if he's your host, Rob McConnell, welcome back, every one.
(01:22):
This is the Xxone. I am Rob McConnell. We're coming
to you from our broadcast center in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada,
worldwide toll free eight hundred and six ten seven zero
three five, email xone at xon Radio TV dot com,
on all social media sites xone Radio TV, and our
main website where you can listen to the Xzone twenty
(01:43):
four seven three sixty five www dot xon Radio TV
dot com. And you're listening to the Xzone on the
Xzone Broadcast Network and on the Starcom Radio Network. Now
here's a question we're going to ask you all. Are
we picking a fight with an eleven ton alien? Well,
(02:05):
while NASA's top sign to say we will likely find
signs of alien life in the next decade. The world's
most famous physicist, Stephen Hawking, and a Russian tycoon, Juri Miller,
seek to hasten that discovery now. Due to the spontaneity
of life's occurrences in the universe, Hawking says there must
be other examples of life beyond Earth because space is infinite.
(02:30):
He and Milner are jump starting a one hundred million
dollar hunt for this life, even though Hawking has reiterated
that an advanced alien civilization would have no problem wiping
out the human race the way a human might wipe
out a colony of ants. Now, our guest this hour
(02:51):
is Robert Boutner. His best selling debut al novel, Orphanage
twenty thousand and four Quill Award nominee for Best Science
Fiction Fantasy Horror. Novel was called the post nine to
eleven Generations Starship Troopers and has been adapted for film.
He was a two thousand and five Quill nominee for
the Best New Writer and Balance Point In is his
(03:14):
eighth novel, Wow. He is a former US Army intelligence
officer and a National Science Foundation Fellow in paleontology. He
was an attorney of record in roughly three thousand cases,
and he's practiced in US federal courts, administrative tribunals, and
in thirteen states and five foreign countries. Joining me now
(03:36):
is Robert Boutner and Robert Welcome to the X Zone.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
Good evening, Rob, it's great to be with you. Thanks
for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:44):
It's my pleasure, sir. Congratulations on your books. Number one.
Number two scares the hell out of me when I
hear Stephen Hawking say that these aliens might just kind
of wipe us out as we wipe out a colony
of ants. Do you think it's a good idea for
us go seeking aliens, even if it's only to listen
to them, like said he does or claims that you do.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Okay, well, I think first let's amplify a little bit
more about what you were mentioning at the outset, which
is what is new in the field of listening. And
as you said, what's new is that in late July,
(04:27):
Jury Milner, who is an internet tycoon Russian internet tycoon,
he did, in fact pledge to spend one hundred million
dollars over the next ten years, and the program that
he sponsored with a co sponsorship, at least in a
celebrity way that Stephen Hawking was giving lending to the program.
(04:53):
The program is called Breakthrough Listen, and Breakthrough Listen is
going to watch because we we have some new technologies,
new optical technologies, and mostly listen by radio astronomy for
intelligent life beyond the Solar System. Now, just as you
pointed out, SETI, the Search for extraterrestrial intelligence has been
(05:16):
actively doing exactly that since nineteen sixty and SETI hasn't
heard a peep. So the question I suppose that we
ought to clear up right off the bat is so
what's new here? And what's new here is the one
(05:36):
hundred million dollars mainstream astronomy has been treating searching for
aliens as kind of this the kookie stepchild for well
since nineteen sixty when it started. And so Seti's been
living paycheck to paycheck longer than our blit our presidential
(05:58):
candidate Marco Rubio. And now that's now. Now that's going
to change, and that's really a great thing. But that's
not the only new thing that's that's going on there.
Speaker 3 (06:12):
What else is new, sir?
Speaker 5 (06:14):
Now?
Speaker 4 (06:14):
Yeah, and the other the other new thing is is
the star power that's being brought to the program. Now, Hawking,
Stephen Hawking, after all, for most of us, personifies the
smartest person in the room, and he's lending his celebrity
to the project, and so are lots of other prominent scientists. Heck,
(06:36):
it's it's an impressive catalog. And that's a great thing too.
Now I suppose the question then becomes, well, why is
this great? And what's the upside if we are if
we're successful, and what's the greatest single benefit to mankind
(07:00):
of discovering an advanced alien race? For me at least,
I guess that maybe Donald Trump would have to quit
claiming he's the smartest being in the universe, but assuming
but leaving that aside, and you know, addressing more seriously,
if we could, for example, eavesdrop on home improvement Alpha
(07:21):
Centauri and learn how to convert old newspapers into a
flux capacitor, that would really be a worldbnder for us,
you know. Yeah, But you know, if you really stop
and think about it, we're talking about light years of
travel time between messages gulfs in language in so many
(07:46):
ways that that kind of specific benefit is really unlikely.
What if we discover that we're not alone in the universe?
The real likely worldbnder is going to be philosophical. Stephen
Hawking said, we're intelligent, We're alive, we want to know
(08:07):
our horizons. Our sense of self as a species is
going to shift in more ways than we really can
even begin to count.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
Well, let me ask you a question, sir. What happens
after one hundred million dollars have spent and they haven't
found anything? They drop another hundred million dollars into the project,
and once again, nothing is found.
Speaker 4 (08:30):
Yeah, I think I think the important thing to realize
there is that how is really how vast all the
dimensions that we're dealing with here are I mean, the
vastness of the universe, the vast number of first off
(08:52):
stars that are out there. And then on top of
that also we've got questions of timing as well. For example,
Earth's been around for how many billion years? And since
when have have we been Have we been as a
civilization capable of looking in a serious way out into
(09:18):
the out into the universe less than one hundred years
less than an eyeblink, So we don't know civilizations could
could come and go, and they could have been they
could have been screaming at us a thousand years ago
or two hundred years ago. We wouldn't have had any
(09:39):
idea they were there. So I think we don't we
do ourselves a disservice if we think, if we presume
that if we spend allows one hundred million dollars, that
we're going to you know, we're going to be able
to close the door. We can't can be able to
(10:01):
We aren't going to be able to prove that negative.
I think kind of what your question kind of goes
to something called the Fermi paradox. So are you familiar
with that? Would your listeners?
Speaker 5 (10:13):
Because his place?
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Okay, well, first thing is Fermi. Enrico Fermi was a physicist,
A brilliant physicist. He's best known for having created the
first nuclear chain reaction in the late nineteen thirties in
a laboratory underneath the bleachers in the University of Chicago
(10:40):
football stadium, and from that we, you know, we got
atomic energy. And Fermi was he was having lunch in
the cafeteria. I guess I have this vision that it
was like the Big Bang theory or something, and he
sits down with all of his colleagues, and they're all
talking about how there must be life because in in
(11:04):
the in the universe, because of the vast number of stars,
the vast spaces, and so forth, And for me, says, well,
but the question is, then where is everybody? You know,
if there's if there are all these civilizations out there,
why have we seen no evidence whatsoever of any of this?
(11:25):
And uh? And that I think is is kind of
what we need to recognize, is that the fact that
we haven't seen anybody, the fact that nobody's shown up
on our doorstep isn't really uh, isn't really proof of anything.
There are a lot of reasons for that too, a
lot of answers to the Fermi paradox. We just touched
(11:48):
on one, which is the possibility or the or the
difficulty of simply timing. We've been around as a as
a species for million, three year a million, three hundred
thousand years, give or take half a million, and you know,
and during most of that time, nobody would have known
(12:10):
we were here. And if they did see us down here,
they wouldn't care because all we were doing is beating
each other on the head with rocks. So that's not
we've got that problem. We've got the problem that we've
got this tiny window when a civilization is able to
(12:31):
reach out to the universe, and we don't know how
long that window stays open. There are any number of
things that can happen. You know, we could blow ourselves
up tomorrow quite quite literally and realistically, we could. You know,
there can be racial senescence. There can frankly be the
the time at which we say, you know what, this
(12:52):
isn't worth it as it is now unless an Internet
billionaire comes along and says, I'm going to kick you
in a hundred million dollars, we can't find the funding
to even try to find extra solar life. So, uh,
there are any number of reasons why the Fermi paradox
really doesn't It doesn't trouble me, at least it doesn't
(13:15):
trouble most science fiction writers.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
No, that's that's because that's what science fiction is based on,
the possibility. Without without the possibility, there's no science fiction.
And this is what concerns me is you have the
people at at SETI who have been trying for years
and you know, working with Berkeley and working with all
(13:39):
the SETI at home people. They have been scanning the
different frequencies for years and years and years. I've had
the pleasure of meeting Seth Shostak and having him on
the show a number of times. Really yeah, And I've
said to Seth, I said, well, what happens? I said,
It's it's great that you're you're doing this, Seth. But
what happens if the signals are not being sent out
(14:01):
by a carbon based unit. Let's say that it's that
civilizations on other planets are of let's say, silicon based. Yeah,
they're transmitting something that you're not listening for.
Speaker 4 (14:15):
No. I, I mean, you know, if you if we
want to you know, for example, just take take another possibility,
just look at the uh look for example, and again
there there there as many scenarios here as they're probably
as there are extrasolar planets, and that number is now
(14:36):
already up in the tens of billion.
Speaker 5 (14:38):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
But huh, if you if you consider that, for example,
hypothesize a world that subsists in the aquasphere rather than
the atmosphere, rather than suburially like like we exist. If
if you can consider the life that's evolved on Earth
(15:03):
in the atmosphere. Uh, you know, whales, dolphins and so
forth communicate by echo location. Uh, they probably haven't seen
the stars. Maybe they have. I don't know what they
think about them, but you know, you wouldn't expect them
to communicate in in that in that way. Now, one
(15:26):
of the things that that break through, Listen, the the
Milner Hawking Initiative is doing differently. Uh, they're gonna they're
going to fund some of the new technologies, and they're
going to fund some of the new optical methods of looking.
For example, U, there are a lot of folks out
(15:46):
there that are postulating now that what we've got, uh,
what we may have out there is some sort of
an interstellar internet where information is carried by beans. Now
I'm not really quite sure why we should all of
a sudden get on board that train, but they're saying, well,
(16:09):
so we need to be looking for that because that
seems like a really good way to communicate. Well, I
don't know, maybe, but so they're gonna be They're gonna
be doing a lot of things like that. But and
that'll be different. But again, uh, the universe is just
(16:29):
so vast that that not finding something, not not hearing
something is really not going to disprove much of anything.
I think, really the the question I think that is
troubling and intriguing is what happens if we do find
(16:53):
something you know, and and that I and that I
think is like I say, we've got we've got the
good side, like we talked about before, and then we've
also got the downside, and.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
But how but how will we know if we hear
anything that is worthwhile if we've never heard what they're
listening for it before? Like, how will they.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
Know they're using?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
How you know they're they're using?
Speaker 5 (17:23):
How the.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
I'm missing? How are we going to know if there
is anything that is being transmitted that is a message
from another star system, another galaxy, another universe when what
we are doing is putting all our eggs in one basket,
using our science looking for advanced scientific messages, Like it
(17:52):
makes no sense.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
No, I I think I think that point is well taken.
I don't know that. I think Miller's point is that
you know, we have to keep trying. You know, we're
just too darn curious to just say, oh, well, we
probably wouldn't know what we were listening to anyway. Let's
(18:16):
just let's just wait and see if they you know,
if we wake up one morning and the mothership is overhead,
then we'll know and if we were in Basically that, frankly,
is the attitude of most of the establishment. You know,
William Proxmire Center in the States, oh gosh, probably twenty
(18:40):
years ago, that was he used to hand out something
every year called the Golden Fleece Award for the most
wasteful government spending. Right and at that time the government
had kicked in about like seventy thousand dollars to set
it or something like that. And know, and he made
(19:01):
he made a great this that you know, and as
we hear all the time, uh, you know, we've got
we've got so many problems in this country. People are starving,
you know, there are these things, you know, we've our
roads are crumbling. We just can't afford something that's this speculative.
And Miller's answer to that is number one, well it's
(19:24):
my money. Uh. And and number two, Uh, you know,
it's important that we at least try. And Hawking agrees
with that. Hawking agrees with the trying part, the listening part.
Hawking and I have serious concerns about about the active
(19:48):
phase of an investigation like that, trying to transmit out there,
broadcast our existence.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Well, because I agree, because what we may be broadcasting
in one way, maybe taking a totally different way on
the other end, or else we're going to be sending
out a beacon saying, hey, we're here.
Speaker 4 (20:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, that's exactly the that's
exactly the worry. I mean if the first if the
first response we get back is say, by the way,
are you guys available in extra crispy?
Speaker 3 (20:27):
Also, yeah, put a whole new meaning on McDonald's right,
that would.
Speaker 4 (20:34):
Be that'd be a very discouraging message to receive. And
that's you know, that's that is a troubling aspect of it.
And actually it's kind of interesting that Hawking is lending
his celebrity to the Listen project, because in twenty ten
(20:56):
he said, as you mentioned at the outset, he said
that really the only predictive analogs that we can apply
to first contact are mankind's historic contacts between advanced and
less developed human cultures. And most of us know how
that turned out. I mean, you know, Native Americans meet
(21:17):
smallpox and oh, by the way, this is General Custer
and so it's you know, unfortunately, the the record, such
as it is, isn't very encouraging. One of the things
that happened, or that one of the great uh uh
(21:40):
divining divides, if you will, in science fiction has been
the the Arthur C. Clark version, which is this you know,
Space Odyssey version where aliens are mysterious and benign. Uh.
And then of course you know the H. G. Wells
and and progeny up through frankly my books, where where
(22:05):
you know, the aliens really don't like us very much
and they're they're a lot better equipped than we are,
and uh, and we kind of get our butts kicked
for a while.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Well, doesn't it make sense that if the aliens are here,
they're going to be better equipped than we are.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
That's that's that's a uh, that's an excellent point, and
it's you know, the the answer would seem to be,
of course they would be you know, and and indeed,
there if they if they can get here, they're probably
so advanced that you know, they they wouldn't they wouldn't
view uh, wiping us out much more differently than we
(22:46):
would view landing on a planet and crushing some of
the lichens. Uh, you know, under the under the spaceship.
So uh, you just see, it becomes very difficult to justify.
I mean, as I said, it's already difficult for our
(23:08):
institutions to justify spending on onlooking. But the thing that's well,
the thing that I find interesting is what we are
doing and have done with regard to the question of
who's in charge of whether and how we do introduce
(23:31):
ourselves if we do hear something back and you know,
I mean, is it the United Nations?
Speaker 3 (23:37):
Well, is it? You know, well, doesn't the United Nations
already have a department that was set up to be
the the emissaries for planet Earth.
Speaker 4 (23:49):
I think that's probably true. I'm not sure if that's
apocryphal or not. I kind of have a feeling that
I don't know where their office is. I don't I
don't see much evidence of them. I don't. I haven't
run across them in any of the research that I've
that I've done for my books. I mean, broll, I know,
(24:12):
you know, you could have fifty guys who get together
in crowdfund a radio telescopic transmitter speaking for the human race.
I mean, you know, Donald Trump could end up deciding
he wants to speak for the human race. But actually,
the the Miller Hawking Initiative does have a part of
(24:34):
its program that that addresses that they start out with
the program as it's Breakthrough Listen, right, there's a second
part which is called Breakthrough Message. And again maybe your
listeners aren't exactly familiar with Breakthrough Message and what that
is is it is a contest to create the message
(24:58):
that will be sent and for a prize of one
million dollars. Now you know the way I view that is,
after one point three million years of evolution, after inventing
the calculus and landing men on the moon, the first
message that the human race sends to the stars will
(25:20):
be the one composed by the last contestant not voted off.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
The Island's scary.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
And I think it is. I mean, we really, frankfully,
there isn't really any plan, if you. Jill I can't
ever remember if her name is pronounced Tater or Tartar,
who was the uh the director of SETI for a
few years, said that she said, yeah, well, well we
(25:48):
have a plan. You know, we're gonna we're going to
issue press releases. She said, we have a bottle of
champagne and the refrigerator uh at you know, at the
Hat Creek Radio Observatory. It's you know, I mean, but
that's kind of as far as the as the plan
really goes. The uh you know, you you can envision
(26:10):
and I think a lot of people, a lot of
us sort of assume that there's a plan. And the
reason a lot of us assume there's a plan is
because we saw Contact. Yes, yeah, right, that was that
was the nineteen ninety seven movie where Jodie Foster got
cheated out of revealing alien intelligence by James Woods and
mediocre special effects. Yeah. And uh and and that's the thing.
(26:36):
We kind of all assume that, you know, that that
everybody's going to get together and the President's going to
address the nation and you know, and he's going to
address the United Nations, and we're all going to get
together and we're going to you know.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
And don't don't forget. We're going to have marshmallows. We're
going to have marshmallows. We're going to have a bonfire,
a guitar, hold hands in that thing, come by out.
Speaker 4 (26:59):
Yeah. It's assumed that a lot of those kinds of
things will happen. I don't know, you know, actually though
a lot of the worries may it may already be
too late. I mean, we've been leaking meet the Kardashians
in two and a half men at the space at
the speed of light for years now, you know, And
(27:23):
I mean any intelligent species is going to view that
as an act of war, right there? Oh you know,
so you know, and so there's there are those kinds
of issues. In fact, to go back to what actually
Contact was based on the Carl Sagan's attempted a novel,
and it was a pretty neat novel actually by the
(27:46):
same name. And as they pointed out or as one
of the events in Contact, well, I'm let's not get
into that anymore. But what I think as they say
(28:06):
that we've we've got here, is that, you know, it's
still it's still a search that we ought to be making.
I don't think we're going to face the problem of
having found something. Maybe we will, but that's not really
what I expect is going to come out of it.
(28:30):
But I think as long as people like mister Milner
and mister Hawks and Professor Hawking say let's let's keep looking,
I'm you know. I'm on board with that. I'm just
not so much on board with the broadcasting part.
Speaker 3 (28:45):
Robert, you and I have to take a small commercial break.
Please don by great having you on the show, sir.
I'm thoroughly enjoying this conversation. Our guest is Robert Butner,
and he is the author of Orphan as well as
Let Me See Here. It was nominated in two thousand
(29:06):
and four for the Best Science Fiction Fantasy Horror novel
was called The Post nine to eleven Generation Star Trip
Starship Troopers and has been adapted for a film. Now
his website www dot Robert Butner dot com. That's r
O b E R T b U E T T
n E R dot com. And we'll be back on
(29:26):
the other side of this short commercial set as we continue.
We're right here in the XO from our broadcast center
in Hamilton, Ontario, Canada. Don't go away, We'll be right back.
Speaker 5 (29:41):
Oh.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
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(31:25):
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the secret to everything?
Speaker 6 (32:41):
Well, then meet doctor Kimberly McGeorge and her cutting edge
breakthrough knowledge that combines science with possibility. Doctor Kimberly brings
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Speaker 3 (33:49):
Hi, my name is Florida and you're listening to my dad,
Ron McConnel on the exone. This is Psychic Dorothy from
Saint Catharine's and you're listening to Rob McConnell. Hello, my
name is Holly Reeves, an astrologer from Astro for You,
and you're listening to Canada's number one paranormal radio show,
The X Zone with Rob mcconough. Welcome to the X Zone,
(34:10):
a place where fact is fiction and fiction is reality.
Now here's your host, Rob mcca. Welcome back everyone, This
is the X Zone. I am Rob McConnell. Before we
get back to our guest this hour, i'd just like
(34:31):
to remind everyone that Wednesday, September thirtieth from eight pm
Eastern until ten pm Eastern here in the X Zone
the Debate of the UFO Century. Stanton T. Friedman, the
great great great great great great great grandfather of ethology,
is going to be debating the Billy Meyer case with
(34:52):
the North American representative of Billy Meyer, Michael Horn. That
is September thirtieth, eight pm until ten pm Eastern, right
here in the X Zone on the Starcom Radio Network
and the xone Broadcast Network. Robert Butner is our special
guest this hour. Www dot Robert Butner dot com. Robert,
(35:16):
what is your personal take on all the different UFO
reports that seem to be coming from various parts of
the world, and if these UFO reports have any credibility whatsoever?
Why are we looking to listen to a signal when apparently,
(35:36):
according to a lot of people, et is here.
Speaker 4 (35:42):
Well, let's see. I have to tell you that I
I'll show my age here. As a kid, I could
not get enough of Project Blue Book and read every
scrap of everything I could get my hands on. I
(36:03):
you know, I would. I would love to think that
there are underground hangars at Area fifty one and that
they've got a mothership down there. And bouncers and the whole,
the whole nine yards. And the thing is, though it
(36:24):
there there are some very credible explanations that that tended
to dismiss a lot of those reports. And depending on
how you want to take them, you can say, well,
you know, I don't buy it. But the problem is,
(36:45):
we just I don't think we've really seen the kind
of of of information that makes me think that that
UFOs are really coming here from elsewhere. I'm going to
need a little bit more before I'm gonna I'm gonna
(37:06):
jump on that train. Uh I I think I think
For example, Uh, the most I found more credible the
the hypothesis that was postulated in kind of an underappreciated
film UH called Lived. I repeat, not the part about
(37:29):
the time travel, but the idea that, uh, you know,
we're just as likely to have some organism wind up
here because it, you know it, it wandered in on
a meteorite. And uh so, I just as I say,
I just don't, I don't. I don't see it from
(37:50):
what I can tell, from what I can read, Uh,
there's no credible evidence that there's any that there's ever
been even an an an extra solar objects that's landed
on the Earth. You know, there is if there's been
an extra there have been a lot of report of all.
There have been a few reports of what people thought
(38:11):
were extrasolar meteorites, for example, and by and large those
have proven based on spectrographic and other analysis that know
they're actually they're actually from within the solar system. I'd
like to believe that there's something in the Solar system
(38:33):
besides cold dead rocks. But but that's that's becoming a
tough cell based on the empirical evidence that we're seeing.
Speaker 3 (38:41):
See I have I have a problem with that as well.
So I'm the first one to say, listen, I want
to believe, but prove it to me.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
You know. Yeah, I think we're getting into the at
some point there. I understand the concept of faith. I
understand it particularly you know, in a in a religious context,
but uh if U f O if ufology uh starts
to become a religion, well let's just call it that,
(39:12):
uh if. And if that's you know, if that's the
best you've got, then you know, maybe maybe we need
to shelve those books in it, you know, a different
section of the bookstore. But you know, I'd love to see.
Oh boy, I mean, I can't wait. I I don't know.
I can't tell you how many stories I've I've written
(39:35):
that that turn on. In fact, there's a free novellette
that i've that's on up on Bain dot com right
now that UH that that deals with UH and an
extra solar object, that talisman, that that comes into human possession,
and those things can happen, And that, of course is
(39:59):
one of the things that science fiction can do for us.
I mean, it doesn't really predict what happens in the future.
What it does is it reflects the zeitgeist, the spirit
of the time in which it's written. But anyway, as
I said, I think, I think we just need to
we need to either put it. If we're going to
put it on a scientific footing, then let's you know,
(40:23):
let's bring forward the information and let's have a debate
about that. But if it's just going to be you,
you know, you either believe or you don't believe, then
we're getting into a different area.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
Why do you think there so many people today are
seeking answers to the problems that we face here on
this planet in the stars. You know, you've got the people.
I've had people on the shows who've told me that
there are eighty one different species of extraterrestrials here on
(40:57):
the planet.
Speaker 5 (40:57):
Now.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
I've had a gentleman come on the show last week
who told me that Queen Elizabeth and other members of
the royal family are really reptilians in disguise that I've
had another gentleman on the show who said that as
a member of the United States Air Force, he actually
took extraterrestrials from Area fifty two got Area fifty one,
(41:20):
Area fifty two into Las Vegas as their tour guide
because their interstellar ship would land in Area fifty two
for refueling and picking up new passengers. You know, I
could go on and on and on. They seem to
be searching for something because whenever you ask any of
(41:40):
them for proof, there is none, and yet they are
so convinced that what they are saying is real.
Speaker 4 (41:51):
Yeah, and I think I think, well, you know, I
don't want to reign on any parades, especially not a
parade that I really really really want to be part of.
So but I I just you know, I I think
it's I think it's a little bit like I've had
(42:15):
similar conversations with with people of various organized faiths who uh,
who have the same sort of literal certainty about their
particular version of history, you know, and it doesn't seem
(42:37):
like there can really be several of them out there,
so uh, you know, I have some I have some
difficulty with it. I don't, I don't have any trouble.
I think that's probably why I why I gravitate to
writing science fiction, which is a field where there's enough
(42:58):
science to hang my hat on so I can suspend
my disbelief and h And I think that's what my
readers are looking for, people who who want to go
and there are you know, so very many of them
who want to go in the direction of you know,
vampires and zombies and and things like that. Okay, you know,
(43:22):
if if that floats your boat as far as storytelling,
then by all means, you know, enjoy We actually George R. R. Martin,
who actually used to write as much science fiction as
as he did fantasy. Uh. You know, George says that
(43:45):
with regard to that, basically, when you when you construct
a story with a science fiction story fantasy story, and
obviously he's expert in constructing both. He said, well, the
basic story is like building a house. You know, you've
got a foundation, you've got you know, you've got wall
structures and so forth. And he said, and then whether
(44:09):
what you what you put in there is furniture. That's
what distinguishes between fantasy and science fiction, he said, you know,
when you really come down to it. Uh, you know,
he pushed the button for the hyper drive and then
isn't really that much different from he casts the spell
(44:29):
and then and uh, And I think I think that's
that's kind of that's part of it. Some of us
really like to have our faith cloaked with with an
extension of of science, and some of us, some of
us find it in other places. So I, like I said,
(44:51):
I I tend to and people who enjoy my books
tend to tend to find the tend to find what
satisfies and want helps him suspend their disbelief in at
least a basis in science.
Speaker 3 (45:06):
Let me ask you this question, sir, Should America be
more entrepreneurial when it comes to space?
Speaker 4 (45:13):
Yeah, well, I'll tell you it's uh, this goes to uh,
this goes to a point that that's been made for well,
really since since the field has been around. And uh,
the the guy who who I'm very flattered to have
my fiction compared to sometimes is Robert Heinlein. Oh yeah,
and high and Hindline. Of course, you know that NASA
(45:36):
struck a medal in his honor because so many NASA
employees got into the field because of his science fiction
in the thirties forties on up through the through the
eighties when he passed away. And uh, you know, and
and uh, Hindline always based his uh, his his work
(46:02):
in uh in the science of the time. And uh
and I think, uh he was he was successful because
of that, and we've seen that we've seen that go
forward since then. And uh so, I don't know, I'm
not I'm not sure if I've really answered your question, but.
Speaker 3 (46:24):
Yeah, I know with with what is going on, you know,
you've you've got the the different aeronautic companies that are
that are kind of stretching their wings and they want
to get part to get into the space space race
because it's it's going to have a lot of good opportunities.
Speaker 4 (46:43):
Yeah, and and and that that actually that that's the
way that Heinlin always envisioned that it would happen, you know,
and I don't think and and we're starting to see
it a little bit, you know, uh uh space x
Elon Muskin space X for example. But the thing is,
it's just so you know, these these kinds of things,
(47:06):
these are huge efforts. For example, we were talking earlier
about the Breakthrough Listen program and how Milner was going
to invest one hundred million dollars and you know, all
the search for extraterrestrial intelligence people are just absolutely over
the moon about that because that's so much money for them.
(47:27):
And yet you know, one hundred million dollars won't get
you very far if you're actually trying to get beyond
near Earth orbit, I won't get you very far at all.
So to go back to the early history of SETI,
I mean they were living hand to mouth. And the
(47:47):
biggest thing that had happened in terms of funding I
think with SETI was when Paul Allen, the Microsoft i'll
call him a co founder who who owns the Seattle
Seahawks and is you know, capable of full answer piece,
kicked in ten million dollars to build the Hat Creek
(48:10):
or to build the initial phase of the Hat Creek
radio observatory in northern California. And so I think that
when you say, I think we are entrepreneurial in space
as much as a society can be. But I think
it's just that the job is just too vast. I
(48:35):
just don't see how it can happen unless as a
society we find a reason we need to get out there.
Speaker 3 (48:44):
Do you think that we should continue our manned space
missions to the moon or should we just leave the
mod alone and get onto bigger and better things.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
Well, at this point there have been a lot of
a lot of hypocause he's put forth about reasons why
it might make economic sense to uh to go to
the moon and too uh and to exist on the moon.
But frankly, uh, you know so far one thing about it. Uh,
(49:17):
you know, I'm kind of a believer in the free
market in the sense that you know, if you know,
if if there's a reason for it, if somebody can
make a buck doing it, they're probably going to try
to do it. And even if they if they just
think they are then they'll take the chance, they'll take
the risk, and they'll uh and they'll persuade people to
go along with them. And uh, we just don't see
(49:40):
that happening. And I think the same thing. The problem.
Uh what one of the characters one of my books says,
you know that that war is uh is to invention
as manure is to marigold, and and that's you know, unfortunately,
(50:02):
that's that's kind of that's kind of the truth. When
we had you know, we didn't go to the moon.
You know, the reason the reason that when we when
we got to the moon there were American flag patches
on the guy's uniforms wasn't because everybody thought it looked nice.
I mean, it was because we were making a statement.
(50:24):
And the only reason that we went to the moon
really was was political.
Speaker 5 (50:30):
You know.
Speaker 4 (50:31):
We we needed to because we thought we had a
good system and those other guys had a system that
was going to wind up on the ash heep of history.
Speaker 3 (50:41):
Well plus plus Russia had already beaten the crap out
of America in the space race. Anyway.
Speaker 4 (50:47):
Yeah, yeah, though again, the more you read about it,
the more you read, the more you realize that the
appearance of having beaten the crack out of us was
really the problem. But uh, that those things that that
the Soviets were doing, uh a weren't that far ahead
(51:09):
off where our where our projects were. We were just
kind of chunking along because nobody had lit a fire
under us. And then once the fire was lit, then uh,
you know this this economic engine, the economic engine I'll
call it of North America because I I used to
(51:31):
I used to live in Calgary for a while. So no, no,
I would. And I was just going to say the opposite.
You know, if you if you had come out, if
you to come out from Hamilton during Stampede week, we
would have cut off your tie.
Speaker 3 (51:47):
Yeah, so there you going, there you go. So, uh, Robert,
I've got to I've got to. I've got to tell you,
my friend, that our time is up for tonight. But
I would love to have the opportunity of having you
back on to further discuss this and keep track of
what's going on with Professor Hawking and mister Milner. So
(52:08):
let our listeners know how they can find out more
about you and where they can get copies of your book.
Speaker 4 (52:13):
Okay, well my books there are eight novels. There's a
lot of free fiction that's available on Bain Books website.
Bain Bain is the effectively, it's an independent publisher that's
effectively the the science fiction imprint of Simon and Schuster.
(52:34):
And there are eight nob Robert Butter novels. They're available
wherever books are sold, including Amazon. Of course, they're available
as physical books. They're available in all the popular doctronic
formats and his audio books. And again, the best way
to find details about those novels and how they all
fit together in which they all do, are at my website.
(52:58):
And as you mentioned, that's www. My name Robert Butner
dot com and the last name is spelled b U
E T T n E R.
Speaker 3 (53:09):
Robert. Thank you so much for joining us, sir, and
congratulations on your great work. And this has been a
great hour. Thank you for sharing with us.
Speaker 4 (53:19):
Thank you, Rob, it was a great pleasure. I'd love
to come back.
Speaker 3 (53:21):
You will, my friend, take care of yourself, sir. Okay,
x oll Nation and Robert Butner has been our guest
this hour. That was a great conversation. Wow, I really
enjoyed that. Now, when we come back from the news
at the top of the hour, at six and a
half minutes past, I'll be talking to another young person.
(53:43):
We're going to be speaking to Angela Artemis. We're going
to be talking to her about let me see intuition.
She's an intuitive coach and we're going to talk to
her about the intuition principle. This is the X. I
Am Rob McConnell. I'll be back on the other side
of this break with some words from our fine sponsors,
(54:05):
and for those of you whose stations and networks carry
the news after your local news and national news one
eight hundred and six ten seven zero three five worldwide
toll free email Xon at xon radio tv dot com,
and all social media sites Xzone Radio TV, and our
main web site where you can listen to the X
(54:26):
Zone seven twenty four three sixty five www dot xzonradio
TV dot com. My name is Rob McConnell. This is
the X Zone. Don't go away.
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