REVEALED! Why Rex Osprey Launched XRP & Dogecoin ETFs Under the 1940 Act! with Greg King

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Inarguably, the forty Act structure is the gold standard for ETFs.
It is the regulatory regime that is preferred by institutions
that has the most investor protections, most flexibility. If we
wave a magic wand and there is a whole ecosystem
that's tokenized everything, absolutely, people like me will be packaging
those together into ETFs, which of themselves will be tokenized.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
Do you think there might be basket products that are
let's say, all the staking proof of steak blockchains and
then the combined yield.

Speaker 1 (00:31):
I think there will be best for products. Yes.

Speaker 2 (00:39):
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link in the description. Hey, folks, welcome into the Thinking
Crypto Podcast. I'm your host, Tony Edward, and joining me
today is Greg King, who is the founder and CEO
of Rex Financial and Ospray Funds.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Greg. Great to have you, Hey, good to be here, Tony. Greg.

Speaker 2 (01:49):
I'm excited to speak with you because we were talking
before the recording. I've reported on rex Osprey's different ETF
products and much more and the unique approach you're taking,
and I'm really excited to dive into the details of
all those things. But let's kick it off with your background.
Tell us a bit about where you're from and your
professional background.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Sure, so I'm originally from California. Hopefully it probably just
alienated half the audience and said that, but it's true.
But I've spent most of my career on the East Coast,
so I got that going for me. But my background
was in finance. I started my career in actually London
with Barclays straight out of school, and then found my

(02:29):
way back to the New York office. Never quite made
it back to California, which is fine. It's a good
place to retire where you don't have any income anymore.
But professionally, I got started in equity derivatives, so it
was a cell side what we call sellside guy, and
then learned the ETF business from I Shares, our sister

(02:51):
company where I spent some time. But this is back
when Barklays owned Barkley's Golobal Investors, which was the parent
company of I Shares, which then got sold to Black Croc. Yeah,
in two thousand and nine, so I'm dating myself. This
is probably twenty two years ago.

Speaker 2 (03:06):
Incredible background because and it's very analogous as to what's
happening greg with Tradfi moving into crypto or the convergence
of these two things. You know, what was your first
encounter with bigcoin and crypto and what was your aha moment?

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Boy? So I know exactly what it was I'm just
trying to think of the thing of the context of
how I got there. So after eight, you know, the
financial crisis, I was working on Wall Street at the
time and kind of lived through all that at friends,
at Lehman Brothers and different You know, it was kind
of like in World War two films, the bombs are

(03:41):
going off all around you and you just hope, you
know you're going to make it, and which I did, thankfully,
but saw a lot of other people impacted, and so
on a personal basis, I was focused on kind of
hedging my portfolio, if you want to call it that,
but really just finding ways to kind of protect assets

(04:05):
for the long term. Wasn't sure what was happening that
the name and the market was had cratered, and I
wasn't sure when I was coming back. So I found
my way to gold and silver basically, and became kind
of a gold and silver guy for lack of a
better way of putting it. And I spent maybe nine, ten, eleven,
twelve or whatever being very frustrated by the lack of

(04:28):
movement in those those prices because all the money was
being printed, et cetera, et cetera. So one day at
a conference in twenty thirteen, I was reading some article,
probably on zero hedge or something like that, and heard
about this thing called bitcoin. It's two hundred dollars at
the time, and so I went home and like researched
it in the hotel. That night. I was up like

(04:50):
really late, and by the time the conference was over,
I had opened up a coin base account and I bought,
you know, a bitcoin for each of my three kids money,
you know, don't invest money you can't afford to lose,
So it was like a thousand bucks all in, you know,
and so that's that was my But I had an
aha moment, I mean instantly, basically, because my mindset was

(05:14):
was already kind of in that space of of how
can you, you know, store your money away in a
safe way without the debatement that happens to fiat currency,
you know, And a lot of people argue that on
a broad basis, the stock market is just kind of
keeping pace with money supply, so you know, what's the

(05:35):
point of that. That's not really helping a whole lot.
And so when I first heard about bitcoin, I was fascinated,
and of course I've learned a lot more over time,
I just but I could see it enough to so
at least take that step. And you know, as you know,
when once you have it a position in something, even
if it's tiny, kind of tend to watch it, learn more,

(05:55):
et cetera, et cetera. And so that's how that's how
I got started.

Speaker 2 (05:59):
Very cool, well, and what led to the founding of
Rex Financial and Osprey Funds. And you can give an
overview of the companies and the services and so forth.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
Yeah, sure, So take a step back to your previous question.
Career wise, I started in equity derivatives with Barclays, as
I mentioned, and was part of a team that was
tasked with essentially building customized investment products, structuring them using
derivatives whatever tools we had available, which was you know,

(06:33):
whether fixed income instruments, commodities instruments, equities instruments, and then
OTC derivatives to tie packages together. This is a bit
more common in Europe than it is in the US.
But anyway, those skills led me to the point where
I proposed a instrument called the ETN. It wasn't called
that at the time, but it was an exchange traded

(06:54):
note to our sister company. I shares and we wound
up building a business around that concept. Who was a
bank note that trades like an ETF. What it allowed
the market to do was to access mainly commodities based exposures,
but over time a lots of other exposure because it
was very difficult to structure commodities into an ETF back then.

(07:18):
So that got me into the ETP world, exchange traded
products with with Barclay's ETNS. And then after the crisis
I was alluding to, in eight I left to start
a company that was the first company that started, and
I just saw the growth in ETPs. I understood, you know,

(07:39):
how to build them, and actually kind of came I
thought from a different mindset than most of the people
in the space at that time, which was they were
kind of a long only delta one you know, stocks
bonds type of framework, and whereas I had been building
these structured products and so you know, more conversion with
derivatives and other asset classes and long exposure, short exposure,

(08:04):
leverage exposure, those kinds of things. And if you're thinking
back to you know, mid two thousands, that wasn't too
common in the ETF world. It was very novel so
I started a company called Velocity Shares. We partnered with
credit Suite for several years, and we sold that business
about ten eleven years ago, and I decided, you know,

(08:28):
to sort of do it again, bigger and better, and
that's how it came to start what is now Rexonancial
Nostra Funds.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
That's amazing. You've been at this for a long time.
You have an incredible pedigree, obviously in TRATI five, but
you've been just billing these type of products. So tell
us about the different types of ETF products. I know
there's a distinction between ETPs that you mentioned, etns and
then ETFs. Tell us about the crypto specific products you
have available.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, So just a bit about the nomenclature in this
so exchange traded fund ETF is used kind of for everything,
but technically really only applies to instruments that are their
funds under the forty Act. There are thirty three Act
type exposures, there's etns, and someone somewhere along the way

(09:19):
just said, well, let's just call the broader term will
be ETPs. So so that's what I kind of tend
to refer to because at this point I've played in
all of those different buckets. Sure, but crypto has been,
you know, uh, a labor of love. You know, I
just mentioned I got involved personally in twenty thirteen, and
actually that was the year that the Winkovas twins first

(09:42):
filed for a bitcoin ETF right, and it was nobody
realized at the time. I mean I saw that I
was in in bitcoin and also in ETFs, I thought,
you know, that's a bit of a green banana. I
think it's going to be a wow for that happens.
I did not think it was going to be eleven years,
which is what wound up to be the case. But

(10:04):
I've been you know, in and around the crypto and
you know, ETP VENN diagram since since then, and so
I think there's there's been a huge unlock recently with
the new administration and the s It's it's a confluence
of factors. It's not just simply the new administration. It's
really the fact that bitcoin at this point has been

(10:27):
around long enough for a lot of people to have
taken the time they need to try and understand it.
And it's it's it's gone through several bear markets and
some severe bear markets, and yet keeps bouncing back, and
so I think finally there's that, there's the new administration,

(10:48):
there's just the evolution of regulation in the ETP space.
What's what's doable now is a lot more than what
was doable, say eleven twelve years ago. And so I
think your question was about our funds. We we have. Yeah,
as of as of the end of the year, I

(11:10):
think we will have three different types of crypto funds
available in the ETP world, and I think that makes
this unique. I'm not sure. I'm not sure anyone else
has that. Maybe one of the firm But anyway, the
evolution in the US for these products was really kind
of backwards, unfortunately, and so we saw a lot of

(11:34):
uh crypto ETP leadership come out of Europe and Asia, Canada,
but the United States for whatever reason, fell behind. And
I think that's being rectified now. But the first structure
that that kind of came out was what what is
referred to as an OTC traded trust. So Gray Scale

(11:58):
really pioneered that. It was kind of a they backed
into an exchange traded product. Those products have their their
drawbacks simply because the SEC at the time would not
allow creations and redemptions, and if you don't allow that,
you effectively have a closed end fond that tried to

(12:18):
premiums and discounts, and so those products experienced a lot
of kind of market turbulence, et cetera. But the new
regime is such that we now have the ability to
launch thirty three Act funds almost at will, and then
we I'm very proud of what we call a rex
Osprey suite of forty Act ETFs because we're the first

(12:42):
and the only firm to offer these in the US market.
I think it's a really big deal. I think there
will be some you know, competition over time as people
figure out the structure that we've come up with, but
for now, we're the only ones out there, and it's
there's quite a bit of sort of opportunity ahead.

Speaker 2 (13:05):
So let's talk about it. Let's double click into that.
Why did you decide to go the forty Act versus
the thirty three Act, which the majority of filers are doing,
And what's the difference between the products or is there
no difference?

Speaker 1 (13:15):
Well, I mean, if if you've got like ten people
trying to pile in the front door and you see
that there's a side door, that you think you can open,
then you know, why not do that? Yeah, to answer
your first question, the thing is, we have thirty three
act products also, so we're sort of structure agnostic. And

(13:37):
I use this analogy all the time. It's to me,
it just makes sense. And I just drank from a
glass of water, right, I could have grabbed a bottle
of water like this big. I could have grabbed one
of those big ones or those little tiny, little quarter
sized ones, or it could have like a five gallon
tank over there and go to the water. Anyways, it's
all water, right, but it's different packaging, different containers. It's

(14:00):
it's more agreeable to this person to do it this
way that's supposed to do it that way. And so
in the investment world, you have all kinds of investors
with all kinds of different constraints. You know, your uber
institutionalized investment pools of capital have all kinds of limitations
on the types of structures that they're allowed to touch

(14:21):
or not touch, et cetera, et cetera, all the way
down to retail investors trading on robinhood who can get
access to know anything that the robinhood allows them to.
For example, so the forty Act was a way to
get exposure in crypto that we found could work with

(14:44):
some creative engineering. And inarguably the forty Act structure is
the gold standard for et aps. I mean, it is
the regulatory regime that is preferred by institutions that has
the most most investor protections, the most flexibility, et cetera.
FLEXI Well, some things are very rigid. Some things you

(15:06):
cannot do in the forty Act, of course, but in
terms of managing the fund, there's more flexibility than the
thirty three Act products. And so for for the audience
may not know, the forty Actor is designed to govern,
you know, investment funds that hold mainly securities. The three

(15:26):
thirty three Act products hold mainly commodities, and so you know,
there's some differences that emerge in terms of how you
can manage them. Thirty three Act products are either just
kind of like a lock box, like the gold etf
whi's been around for a while. It's there's gold bars,
there's shares, you trade them. That's it. They don't sit

(15:50):
there and say, oh we're gonna, you know, go to
cash for a little while or add some silver or whatever.
They can't do that. If you want to do things
like that in the thirty three Act, then you have
some other difficulties that crop up, which is some pretty
adverse tax consequences and things like that. It gets tricky.

(16:10):
Forty Act is much more a robust platform for managing
actually managing a portfolio, and we just thought that that
would be ideal for crypto, especially where you have staking.
And that was the main innovation. If I if I
say to people, okay, we launched the first you know,
Spot forty Act crypto ETF, most people's eyes are glaze over.

(16:36):
But if we say the first staking ETF the then
they're interested, Oh what so I get a yield? Oh interesting?
So sometimes you know, these technicalities are interesting to the
to the industry, but not to investor. Semesters care about outcomes, right,
And so the main innovation with the forty act structure
that it allowed us to do was to offer staking rewards.

(16:59):
So the solo on a fund, for example, is our
first Solana SSK is the staking based Salona exposure. So
you have that exposure to spot Salana, but you also
have some yield that comes out of it on a
monthly basis. And I think that is the very roundabout
way to answer, But that was the attraction for forty
Act as we we thought we'd be able to do

(17:20):
the staking and frankly get to market more quickly. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:24):
Absolutely, and I think that's a smart strategy. To your point,
you mentioned the Salona staking. You also have etherorem staking ETF. Right,
so you were first on the market with these products
because of the forty Act, Is that right?

Speaker 1 (17:37):
I mean the forty Act enabled us to launch those Yeah,
more quickly. I think the other kind of contingent that
was pushing for thirty three Act had had hold ups
with respect to the sec of granting approval to the
generical listing standards that kind of came through. And also

(17:59):
there's a tax angle, right, so people are waiting on
the IRS to sort of make everything clear around how
staking should work in that space. So they just had
bigger roadblocks, whereas we thought the forty Act route didn't
have as many, but there were there were other issues
to solve in the forty night side. Sure, thankfully we're

(18:20):
able to do that.

Speaker 2 (18:21):
So I'm curious, you know, let's say the user is listening,
even myself invests in the salon and etherorems taking ETFs,
what happens to the staking rewards? I think you mentioned
there's a bit of a yield paid out monthly. Is
the staking rewards reinvested or I have the option if
I want to reinvest it or get a yield.

Speaker 1 (18:40):
Yeah, so there's there's not like in mutual funds, we
have different share class that can kind of reinvest or not.
We just pay it out, you know. I think that's
part of the attraction, is that you get a monthly dividend.
Basically with these these ETFs. The you know, I can't
quote exact numbers and moves around all the time, but

(19:00):
Ballpark figures a solon a limits is yielding around five
percent annualized two investors, which is not nothing. I mean,
you know, it's like crypto plus uh income. Ethereum one
is much lower. But the I mean that's a that's
a function of of kind of how the Ethereum ecosystem works.

(19:21):
But you could in future see other other funds that
have higher yields. I mean, as you know, every every
crypto has its own sort of tokenomics and and therefore
different yields.

Speaker 2 (19:33):
Do you think there might be basket products that are
let's say all the staking proof of steak blockchains and
then the combined yield.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
I think there, I think there will be best in products. Yes, yeah,
that'd be awesome. I have to I have to fly
like we have a bunch of products and registration. I
have to kind of try and remember which I which
are because I can't talk about those specifically, but as
a general matter. Yes, that is the way that this
thing is going is you know, first everything's like single

(20:04):
single name. Then you start to see basket products, basket
products with yield, and that that is the way I'd
see this all evolving now with the SEC.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
You mentioned it updating the generical listing process. Once all
these things are you know, ironclad and you know this
is what the SEC wants, and here's the regulations and
the guardrails. Are you going to keep these ETFs under
the same structure of the forty act or will you
move them up to thirty three or doesn't mean there's
no reason too?

Speaker 1 (20:35):
Yeah no, no, no, we would not We would not
do that. We would not move them over. We would
have both So for example, yeah, well I can't again,
I can't get into specifics, but you could see two
of a similar type of fund as a forty one
is a forty act one is a thirty three act.
Some slight differences in how they operate and so on,
and again, you know, I don't know that for us

(20:58):
specifically we're going to do, you know, two of everything
or anything like that, but where it makes sense we will.
And again back to the water analogy. As a product provider,
we're sort of structure agnostic. Obviously, we try and do
the best we can to bring good products to market.

(21:18):
But at the end of the day, if someone prefers
this type of product versus that type, I don't want
to make that choice for them. I want to give
them both if I can.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Now there's also I think you guys were first in
a market with an XRP and DOGE ETF Is that right?

Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah? Yeah, So our first lunch was the Salona product.
This is the forty act that we're talking about forty
act products, So sure which offers steaking if there is
staking in the particular crypto So like XRPN and DOGE
don't have steaking, so there is no staking yield, but
Salon and etherium do, so there is. So those are

(21:56):
our four products that are in the market now, and
I think we have twenty some other products in registration.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
Yeah, it's awesome. I know there are a lot of
big communities behind some of these tokens like dose, like
x orp, and people have been waiting for these to
go live. So it's really great that you were, you know,
forst the market with it' doing taking a different approach.
This is really great.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
You know.

Speaker 2 (22:18):
Do you see down the line that there may be
products around tokenized assets. There's a lot of folks in
the race of tokenizing gold stocks, some real estate. Are
those things you're taking a look at.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes and no. So the tokenization concept is one that
has been around for a while. I think it's very valid.
I think it's very much where the puck is going.
But you know, there's something I've learned the hard way
is there's such a thing as being too early, and
so I think for us it's it's not it's not

(22:58):
time yet. So what do I mean by that? The
to me, tokenization simply means putting a wrapper around an
asset that makes twenty four to seven global trading of it,
you know, possible, and relatively frictionless. Okay, great, if we
wave a magic wand and there is, you know, a

(23:21):
whole ecosystem that's tokenized everything. Absolutely, people like me will
be packaging those together into ETFs, which in and of
themselves will be tokenized. Right, So r ETFs won't be
trading on the New York Stock Exchange, or won't be
trading on you know, NAZAC under conventional terms. There'll be
tokenized versions of that, which probably will be exchanges that

(23:44):
mc NASC buy, and so they will be trading on that. Nice.
But just you know, everything's going to be tokenized. It's
just like the way stocks trade, the way things settle,
you know, blockchain promise. But it's it's it's very I mean,
I live through the dot com right, and everyone's like, wow,
there's this thing called the Internet. This is amazing, and

(24:06):
let's let's buy the stock of every company that ends
in something dot com and then went and then went.
But they weren't wrong, they were just massively early, right,
So it's it's amazing how long it takes stuff to
kind of build out. Of course, you know, it's getting
faster and faster. We're seeing that with Chatchibot and AI
and what's happening with all that. But it still takes time,

(24:28):
so so yeah, I mean, I think it's exciting as
a human. I think it's the citing as a participant
in the financial system. As a product provider, Uh, it's
it's early for us to worry a lot about that
at the moment, you know. So we definitely have an
eye on it. We've had an eye on it for

(24:50):
seven years, and it's heating up. But I'm not sure
that's that's more of a market infrastructure build, sure than
an investment product build. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
I think you're spot on there. Some of these markets
are not even fully built out where you know, there's
global demand for these things and people are still testing
the water.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
So still very early.

Speaker 2 (25:10):
You know, recently the United States allowed crypto to be
put into four to one case, right, and the retirement
accounts and so forth. Obviously that that includes ETF products
like yours. Tell us a bit about the demand you
think may come from these retirement accounts, and are you
also speaking to ri as and wealth managers about your products?

Speaker 1 (25:30):
Yeah, I think over time the demand is potentially huge,
especially because you know, conventional advisors will tell you okay,
if you're younger and ever longer time horizon to invest,
you know, take more risk if you're older and have
a shorter one take less risk. And so by definition,

(25:50):
retirement funds, which which have the longest time table until
they're going to be you know, utilized, have you know
the most or shouldn't theoretically have the most risk appetite.
It doesn't always work that way, but yeah, I think
there's a there's going to be a huge demand. We
already see people to the extent possible preferring to put

(26:15):
some of these investments in their iras for you know,
tax deferral reasons and things like that. As to the specifics,
we're definitely more involved with just your traditional wealth managers
and ra's that I mean not for one case specifically,
I will say retirement because of virus. But the four
one K market is kind of like its own animal.

(26:36):
And I remember when you know, ETFs were all over
the place and still you kind of couldn't get them
in for one case, and there's some specific structural reasons
for that. So I think over time, absolutely, and it's
gonna be a very big source of demand.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
And then for your products, tell us a bit about
the markets you're available and is it all the United States,
So you have products overseas as well.

Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, we do, So maybe a word about Rex and Osprey.
We sort of jumped right into the crypto side of things.
The majority of our au M, and we're about nine
billion right now is actually trad FI instruments, So we
have a billion one point two billion in crypto and

(27:25):
the rest is kind of trad five strategies. So as
far as REX overall is concerned, we we've launched in Europe.
We have some income strategies that trade in London and
Milan and Frankfurt, and in Asia it's a bit of
a different strategy because Asian investors a lot of times

(27:47):
are able to access US markets more readily. So we
estimate that twelve to fifteen percent of our AUM comes
from Asia. So we have, you know, representation in Europe
and Asia. It's small, but we have people there, you know,
engaging with clients and so on. But that's definitely an

(28:10):
area of potential growth for US. I will say though
Europe is as far as crypto goes, well, Europe, as
far as anything goes, it's pretty fragmented, and so it's
it's a different the US is is you know, where
I live where I've worked for twenty something years and

(28:31):
the biggest market. And so for sure, the move for
US is to keep focusing on our US business, but
we do have a presence in Europe in Asia as
well as growing quickly.

Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, oh for sure. Yeah, And it seems like Greg,
I mean, I'm sure you're can attest it as this
year has been incredible for the crypto industry, lots of growth.
Obviously with the new administration getting certain legislation passed like
the Genius Act, getting some from the SEC c FDC,
it seems like we're on the upside here in the
United States and there's still more to go.

Speaker 1 (29:06):
One hundred percent. I mean it's it's it's sort of
night and day versus what we're living through the last
four to eight years. Yeah, for sure. And it's not
even sorry, let me just say it's not even you know,
in some circles it's unpopular to say the administration's constructive
because you know, people may not be Trump fans, but
it's not even necessarily as Trump because he was our

(29:28):
president a while back, and he's not so great then
either he himself, like I mean, I I don't have
time to do this, but if I wanted to go
find quotes of him, you know, he's kind of like
Jamie Diamond, right. But anyways, so it's not just that
I think Paul Atkins is an amazing commissioner. I know

(29:51):
him personally, and he is a very responsibly entrepreneurial guy,
is what I would say. He's constructive, he wants to build,
and he has a vision for crypto. He understands crypto
very well. So I really like what he's doing.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
Yeah, they've been doing an amazing job. I love the transparency,
the Crypto Task Force, the Crypto roundtables. It's just to
your point, like night and day, this is like how
a regulatory agency should be set up and run. Rights
such a breath of fresh air. I want to get
your take on ETFs versus digital as to treasury companies,
because we've seen a lot of treasury companies putting crypto

(30:29):
assets on your balance sheet and they're trying to say, oh,
you know, you can invest this way versus the ETOs
and so forth. So is this like dynamic and competition
playing out here? What are your thoughts on that.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
My thoughts have evolved, you know, so obviously lots of
credit to Michael Saylor and what he's done. It's strategy
sort of pioneered this idea right at this point. Now
you could argue that things are getting able to oversaturated
with these digitalized treasure companies. I still I think that, well,

(31:02):
most companies, let's say Fortune five hundred should absolutely have
bitcoin on balanceyet. But I don't know how many bitcoin
digital asset treasury companies the world needs. You know, there's
a really big one called strategy, and it's fine if
people want to do that, that's that's absolutely fine. Your

(31:25):
question was that concept dats? Are we calling them dats? Now?
Did you ask the treasury companies those versus ETFs? I
mean ETFs are straightforward. I mean, you know, we have
one to one exposure, great redeem They traded fair value,

(31:46):
give or take, and that's why everybody likes them. They're
you know, easy to understand, straightforward liquid. I'm generalizing. Obviously.
Trouble with these companies is the M and F right
just goes all over the place and depends on all
kinds of different factors and including you know, how their

(32:06):
sort of IPO or back or merger deal was structured.
And so it's kind of like do you like stocks, Well,
which stock are you talking about, you know, because it depends.
But it if I mean, people invest to make money, right,
so if there's an opportunity to buy one of these

(32:27):
things at a discount and then write it up to
a premium, sure that makes all the sense in the world.
But or you know, I did maybe more jibe with
this concept when strategy was you know, had a at
M now that sort of represented like a quasi leveraged

(32:49):
exposure to bitcoin. They had raised debt capital in order
to redeploy the bitcoin. You know it. It was kind
of straightforward. There's a lot of engineering that's happening now,
and it's I think difficult for investors to fully comprehend
what's happening. So we'll see where it settles out. I
think we're in the midst of a big churn. I
think there's a valid spot for these things in the market.

(33:11):
I would suggest there's maybe only you know, room for
one or two players in each in each of these cryptos.
You know, You've got Tom Lee's Ethereum company, right, Okay, fine,
but we probably don't need another ten of those. And
then you know, Solana et cetera et cetera. And at
some point you got to stop, because you know you

(33:31):
could if you scroll down the pages of how many
cryptos there are, it's like, I don't even know what
it is anymore, tens of thousands. But so you know,
we got to draw a line somewhere. But I think
for your normal investor just trying to take the long
term exposure, understands the bowl case, for say, bitcoin, understands

(33:55):
that Ethereum and Solana are smart contract platforms that are
kind of buying against each each other and a couple others, Okay,
et cetera, et cetera, a few more plays down the road,
I would say, just buy the ETF. It's it's it's
a little more unless you like extra vall more vault
together ones. Yeah, no, I'm in totally agreement with you.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
And uh, you know, at one point, the value proposition,
you know for these dats was there's no ETF that
exists for these fittest products like r XRP or whatever. Right,
But now that's change, and if you want to get
exposure to the asset, and I would say the ETF
is the best route. I often tell people, unless you're
planning to do something unique with that stock for that company,

(34:37):
and then you have, you know, all the inherent risks
that come with that, is that company properly managed, uh,
you know, and and all the other factors that could
happen over time. Plus if there's a downturn in the market,
what happens to the stock price. But if you're just
obviously in the bear market, everything goes down, but you
would I think we'll have less volatility with the holding

(35:01):
the asset directly in an ETF Yeah, yeah, Ligory. Yeah,
So I'm curious what's on your roadmap, you know, as
you're heading to twenty twenty six.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
So we've got a lot of these crypto products in filing,
and I told you some thoughts around how I think
that might evolve. The two other product suites that we
have at rex or Leverage products and income products. Were
really building our income suite. It's covered call strategies and

(35:36):
other alternative ways of generating income in portfolios. So very
bullish on that as well as, as I mentioned before,
kind of some of the international expansion because our products
are so yeah, I don't know to sound like I'm
bragging too much, but I feel like they're very well

(35:57):
received by certain types of investors that there's a lot
of opportunity for us in some of those markets where
you know they're underserved. So for example, if you look
at the covered call market covered call ETFs in the
United States, it's over one hundred billion, and in Europe
it's like a couple. It's really nowhere near. You know,

(36:19):
the US tends to lead. This is why it was
so surprising where in crypto ETFs it wasn't the case
because in any other facet of ETFs, over time you
can look at it and whatever happened in ETFs happened
first in the US and then over a three to
five year period eventually happened everywhere else. And so you know,

(36:41):
figuring out what's working in the US, you can essentially
travel in time backwards, like going over to Europe and
then doing that and magically three years later it's like
really popular. So so we're excited about some of those
growth opportunities for the firm. In twenty six, twenty seven.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
Awesome, great, great stuff. I love the approach, I love
the strategy, and you know, the products you have out there.
I know a lot of my viewers are going to
love the products as well, there there's a there's a
big x RP community. It's a lot of folks, of course,
so good stuff, Greg. I got some wrap up questions
here for you. First, if you could create your own metaverse,
what would the theme be?

Speaker 1 (37:20):
I would try and just mix in all the stuff
I care about. So I love the idea of something
to do with with like like being off the grid.
I love nature, like something where you build your own ranch,
you protect it, you like you know you you farm,
you hunt, you fish, you know, you build. I don't know.

Speaker 2 (37:46):
Something like that. Not great, techie, but I'm a little
bit old school, no I you know what I thought
of as you were saying that Age of the Empires.
I used to play that game a lot to having
an immersive metaverse world for that.

Speaker 1 (37:57):
Maybe that sounds good. Rapid fire questions. Favorite food Mediterranean
if I have to go genre, If I have to go,
specific food, a big delicious cheeseburger. Favorite musician or bad musician.
So I'm gonna choose from again. Old school Beatles are

(38:20):
the best band ever. Nice favorite movie Saving Private Ryan,
It's a good one. Favorite boat. I'm gonna go Bitcoin standard.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Hey, I got a copy back there and when you're
not working at Rex or Ousbury, what are you doing
for fun?

Speaker 1 (38:34):
Trying to be on the water, however I can. You're
in Miami, golfer with my college age boys and just
generally traveling.

Speaker 2 (38:45):
Awesome, Greg, pleasure chatting, looking forward to future updates and
products from Rex and Osbury. Thank you so much for
joining me.

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Great to be here. Thanks Tony,

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