Truth Wanted 08.46 with ObjectivelyDan and Fe

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/truth-wanted--3195473/support.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, this is objectively Dan. I just wanted to
give a quick note at the beginning of this video
or podcast if you're listening to this in podcast form.
One of my co hosts today was Kelly Laughlin, and
he used a word to describe black people that is
a bit antiquated today. Specifically, he used the word blacks

(00:21):
instead of describing them as black people. We like to
focus on person first language because it always humanizes a subject.
For example, instead of describing people as slaves, we prefer
to use the words enslaved people. So it was said
on the show and we did address it, although in
my regret, we didn't address it until a few minutes later.

(00:45):
So Kelly did apologize for that and he feels very
bad for it, but we wanted to give him the
space to do that on the show while we were
still alive. So there is a little bit of an
awkward moment in the show where we do discuss it,
but it was addressed. We felt that we want to
keep the show in its entirety, which is why that

(01:07):
we are putting this message at the beginning of today's show.
So thanks for your attention on this, and I hope
you enjoy listening to the rest of the episode. Hey, folks,
lots of philip people believe in different things and that's
why we're here every single Friday. So if you believe
in alternative facts or a conspiracy, or what other people
would call pseudoscience, or even religion, we want to talk

(01:28):
to you about why you believe it and examine the
evidence you present. So give us a call because the
show is starting right now. Hello, Hello everybody, and welcome
back to another episode of Truth Wanted. I am your host,
Objectively Dan and this is the live calling show that
happens every single week Fridays at seven pm Central Time

(01:50):
when we talk to people about what they believe and why,
and if you'd like to call us, you can do
that and should do that. The number is five one
two nine nine nine two for two or call through
your computer at tiny dot cc slash call t W
And as always, Truth Wanted is a product of the
Atheist Community of Austin, a five oh one c three
nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of atheism, critical thinking,

(02:12):
secular humanism, and the separation of religion and government. And
every single week I always try to have a special guest.
This week is no different. It is Fee joining me
today from TikTok. Fee, welcome to Truth Wanted.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Thank you so much, Dan, thanks for having me. I
appreciate this.

Speaker 1 (02:28):
I'm so glad you are joining uh with me today.

Speaker 2 (02:31):
Fee.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
You are are part of a discussion of panel if
you will, of Folks with Thinker on Thinker who was
on just a few weeks ago on TikTok, where you
also talk to people about what they believe and why. Right.

Speaker 2 (02:45):
Yeah, it's awesome a Thinker and Christina and the Bash
and the whole crew, the nerds and the fishing and
it's just a great group of people. We have a
we're on pretty much every day and various topics will
come up with various prompts and start the conversations and
they're always interesting. Needless to say that the people that

(03:08):
are willing to talk to us variety of backgrounds, variety
of beliefs, some of them coherent, some of them not
so much. But it's a wonderful opportunity and it's a
great group of people.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Been there, done that with the whole coherent versus non
coherent beliefs. If you have incoherent beliefs, I still want
to hear them to be clear, you know, lines are open.
But yeah, it's funny how when people say some of
their stuff out loud, they don't even realize sometimes how
nonsense it can be.

Speaker 2 (03:37):
Right, Yeah, we have somebody today tell us that Adam
and Eve were spiritual humans. We still don't know what
that means, but.

Speaker 1 (03:44):
Okay, spiritual humans. Yeah, it's so funny, like, you know,
and I get it. I get it because I was
a Christian and I understand why. But like everything we
understand about history, archaeology, anthropology, you know, we all have
to retro fit that into the Bible. Right, So it's like, well,
we can't say Adam and Eve are a real person

(04:06):
because that doesn't make sense based on what we know
about human history. But maybe we can say there's no
that we know that. Yeah that's right. Yeah, but it's
just like you know, like I used to do this
myself because I was never a younger creationist guy, but
I was like, oh, I believe in evolution. I just
think like the Genesis accounts like a metaphor, right, But

(04:26):
if you ask me like the details of that metaphor,
I couldn't really tell you, right, because like, what does
that mean? It's a metaphor at the end of the day,
how does that describe anything?

Speaker 2 (04:35):
What is it a metaphor for? Right? Like we know
from a scientific perspective the things that we do know
at this particular point. But like, that story just doesn't fit.
I don't know why people fight so hard to try
to make it true. I mean, I do know, but yeah,
it makes our interesting conversations.

Speaker 1 (04:52):
Yeah, and it gets worse because I've I've said this before,
but I'll agree with the young creationists on this. That's
the only thing I agree with Young creator through on
is that you really can interpret the rest of the
Bible without kind of believing in a Young Earth. Creation
is narrative because Jesus and Paul also talk about events
that happened in the All testsment, particularly with that am Eve,

(05:13):
but also other stories as they literally happen. They didn't
seem to interpret these just as stories. So it's like Earl, like,
if Jesus is saying all this happened, then are we
calling Jesus a liar or is he also just making metaphors.
I don't know, it doesn't really make sense.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
It falls apart, and I think that's why more most
people don't ask the questions like these conversations we see
like the I think the devil is in the details,
like how did that happen? What would that look like
if this were actually the case. But it's those questions
that folks just kind of skirt over, I think, because
if you look at it too hard, it completely starts
to fizzle.

Speaker 1 (05:47):
Right. Absolutely, But if I want to get back to you,
because you you got that sure on right now and
says hashtag black atheist, I love that, But you aren't
always an atheist, right, No?

Speaker 2 (05:58):
No? I I was Jehovah's witness My parents became witnesses
when I was a year old, so it was literally
all I knew, lived, breathed it, like, constantly studied, read like,
attended meetings, knocked on doors, like all of the typical
JW stuff. It wasn't until I had questions though, like

(06:18):
my dad, I would. My dad and I were always
really studious, like we would question things and study things,
and then when I would ask him the questions that
they couldn't answer, he would always say, well, you know,
we'll have to learn later, because you know, Jehovah's witnesses
believed that Paradise is comeing to earth and all the
Jadab's will be here, all the non Jadabs will be gone.

(06:40):
But I would just accept that because it was a
it was a testament of faith to just trust without knowing.
But it wasn't until my son was I think it
was like six months old. My husband at the time
asked me, what would you do if he grew up
and didn't want to be a Jehovah's witness, And because
Jehovah's witnesses practice what they called just fellowshipping, I'm like,
my knee jerk reaction was, oh, well, he's going to

(07:02):
have to find somewhere else to live. And in that moment,
I'm like, you don't believe that, Like you're not going
to do that. Like That's what I said to myself
in my mind. So I had to decide at that
point did I want to be the type of mother
that didn't model for a child authenticity And I didn't
want to do that. So that kind of was the
first domino to start me into looking into what this

(07:24):
belief system really was, where it came from. And that
was twenty plus years ago.

Speaker 1 (07:29):
So authenticity not a traditional Christian trade or certainly not
Jehoah's witness trade either, is it not at all?

Speaker 2 (07:37):
Not at all, It's very performative. We talked about that
in the conversations on TikTok as well, where Christianity I
think is more about perception as opposed to behavior. As
long as you are perceived as a good person or
you are you have the movements or the actions of
someone that's proper or moral or whatever or adjective you

(08:00):
want to add to it, then you're fine. It doesn't
matter who you are as a person. And I didn't
I didn't like the way that felt so and I
definitely didn't want to raise my son that way.

Speaker 1 (08:09):
Yeah. Absolutely. And you know it's been a minute since
we've talked about Jehovah's witnesses on this show, and you
know we have a lot of international audiences who may
not be as similar because Job's witness is a very
pretty American sort of religion. I would argue, maybe you
disagree with that, you disagree with.

Speaker 2 (08:24):
That they are global, Well.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
They're lobal, but they have a stronger presence in the
US more than any other country, right am. I alily
with that.

Speaker 2 (08:31):
I think they've got a pretty strong presence all over,
Like annually you would have to do this. We would
get this book, and this book would tell us the
numbers in each country unless they were lying, which I
don't necessarily think they were, because when I did my
deep dive shortly after I decided this wasn't for me,
I found a lot of child abuse cases and that

(08:54):
were settled in other countries and things like that.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
So you're telling me there's child abuse cases with Jehovah's
Witnesses that I don't want it. Oh, okay, wow, all right, yeah, yeah, okay, Yeah,
you're right. It is a glow because it's an evangelical religion, right,
I mean like like obviously it's even jocal, but I
mean like they they're really passionate about that obviously, Right.

(09:17):
That's the stereotype of Jehovah's Witnesses. It's people going to
door to door and doing the whole thing. When I
think of Jehovah's witness is one thing I think it was.
I got to go to the opportunity to go to
Hawaii a few years ago, and it was a great
trip overall, and and while I was there, I saw
a Kingdom hall in Hawaii, and I was like, God,
I'm in this beautiful island, this beautiful place. Why the

(09:39):
hell would I want to go to church here? Why
would anybody want to go to this because every single
story here, just like from your fee, it's it's never
like there's positive short but Jehovah's witnesses in particular, very
intensive religion.

Speaker 2 (09:52):
Very yeah, very now. I say this all the time, right,
Like I don't have traumas related with my US experience,
Like you know, I have fond memories. I have friends
that you know, childhood friends that I don't even remember
ever not knowing. So luckily I'm not not one of
the people who have you know, hurt associated with that

(10:14):
religious experience. But it's very high control. Like there's no holidays,
there is no birthdays. The only thing that you can
celebrate is like if you're married, your anniversary. But that's
pretty much it. You're in meetings two three times a week,
you're knocking on doors, and the days that you're not
in the meetings, you have to study for and prepare
for those meetings. And not only are you studying the material,

(10:37):
you've got to do extra research too, Like at points
that you didn't necessarily see printed in the material. So
it's very high control. It's almost as though you don't
even have the time to contemplate any thoughts outside of
what they're telling you to think. So it's yeah, it's
very one of it's definitely one of the more intense ones.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
And of course you mentioned the mechanism of disfellowship, right,
and of course you're talking about it in the context
of a fearful thing, which I think is what that's
designed to do. Right. You don't want to be disfellowed.
You don't like that's that's the worst thing, because to
be disfellowed, and again for those who aren't aware, it's
much more intensive than just leaving a church community. Right,

(11:20):
maybe you want to talk about that a bit.

Speaker 2 (11:23):
It is it it's excommunication basically right at underneath it all,
it's psychological manipulation because you are encouraged not to form
relationships outside of the organization, even with your own family members.
So when you are this fellowship, your entire support system
is gone. Like your your parents aren't supposed to talk
to you, your siblings aren't supposed to talk to you.

(11:45):
They're supposed to be no no, I guess camaraderie whatsoever,
no communication at all. So yeah, it's pretty difficult. I
had a childhood best friend who was a fellowship My
sister was this fellowshiped at once they at one point.
So it's it's really it's difficult.

Speaker 1 (12:03):
Was that after you left, No, before you left? Okay, Yeah,
you had a model a little bit that of what
that looked like.

Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, And I remember, like I remember, I was in
living where I am now. I moved from Georgia, but
I drove back home and I was visiting. I was
talking to, you know, just catching up with my sister
like you would if you know, visiting for the weekend.
And my dad called me in the room. He's like,
you know, you're not supposed to be talking to her.
And I'm like, I'm not driving eight hours to not
talk to my sister. I'm like, I'm not doing that. So,

(12:34):
even within being part of the religion, still still believing it,
there were still certain things. I'm like, I'm not going
to not talk to my sister. So there were things
that just did not seem kind, that didn't seem loving.
Like I knew people who were kicked out of their
houses because they had questions or because they no longer
wanted to attend the Kingdom Hall anymore. So it's yeah,

(12:56):
it was. It was pretty rough for several people.

Speaker 1 (12:59):
Wow, so you kept up that communication with your sister
even though she was just fellowshipped from Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah.
Was she an influence on you and on also leaving?
Was she like, hey, you should get out of here too.

Speaker 2 (13:10):
So it's funny because she was I'm the youngest of
three girls. The oldest one was she's super quiet, like
she's the even more of a nerd than me. But
the middle sister was the rebel, like she was the
one who was always like this doesn't make any sense,
Like she was the vocal one. So it was. It
was interesting because I don't know that that was part

(13:31):
of my deconstruction. And the reason I say that is
because we were talking earlier before the show about the
recording that you have with Street Epistemology. Yeah, yeah, and
how and I think I asked you, do you even
recognize that person? Well, when my sister was this fellowship,
I wrote her letters, you know, trying to get her
to come back, telling her, you know, you've got to

(13:52):
come back into the fold. So those letters are a
reminder for me of who I was, my mindset at
that time. So I guess it was more like this
this binary thing going on inside where of course I'm
going to talk to my family, my sister, my sisters,
and I are thick as thieves. But then you've got
this religious pressure to be this way or think this way,

(14:14):
and it's it's it's hard to find any level of
authenticity when you're when you're wrestling with all of that
at the same.

Speaker 1 (14:19):
Time, authenticity and autonomy from what it sounds like, because
that's an organization that's really telling you this is more
important than your family. Yeah, that's that's a hard thing
to hear. As an outsider, I'd.

Speaker 2 (14:34):
Say it's really difficult. I mean we talk about this
almost daily on on TikTok as well. How the you're
told what to think? Like I can remember in elementary school,
I forget what class it was, but they were talking
about dinosaurs or fossils or something like that, and I
remember thinking to myself, what am I supposed to think
about dinosaurs? Like? Am I supposed to think they're real?

(14:54):
Not what does the research say, what does the data show?
But like what am I supposed to think, and I
think that's one of the biggest markers of religion. You're
told what to think and you're not taught how to think,
and it just kind of reinforces that indoctrination.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
That's so interesting that and kudos to you. It sounds like,
you know, because your family really was a big breaking
point for you in sort of leaving, were there other
things you were thinking about at this time as well,
because you know, for a lot of so for some
people it's after this one thing clicked, it was a waterfall.
For some people it's like multiple points. What was it
for you that that sort of broke the straw on

(15:30):
the camel's back here.

Speaker 2 (15:33):
Yeah, it was primarily knowing that I needed to be
able to model for my son the an individual who
lived authentically, who lived in truth. And I had seen
growing up so many people who you know, who portrayed
this godly, kind, loving persona, but at home they were assholes, right,

(15:56):
So I didn't want that. And I think that that
that one idea, kind of, like I said, was that
first domino. And you know, religious deconstruction leads to deconstruction
of so many other systems that we are indoctrinated into.
Like patriarchy and you misogyny and all of these, all
of these other ideologies. So it's been one of the

(16:18):
most freeing experiences I can I could ever go through.
I think I was telling Thinker in Christina one day, like,
it's kind of I'd liken it to. You know, on
the beach, you see people, maybe some footprints that have
been made before you come along. I think deconstructions, I
guess Jesus, yes, But then you have to stop walking.

(16:40):
I think it takes effort to mimic someone else's gate, right,
So when you when you stop trying to force yourself
to walk someone else's path and you forge your own,
there's a level of freedom that comes with that that's
hard to even describe, because you stop living vicariously and
you start living authentically. And I don't think you can
put a price on that.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, that's so interesting you you say it that way
because speaking personally, like I remember in my own deconstruction,
one of the things that drew me to like atheist
content was Wow, these people are really saying stuff I
literally never heard anyone say or question because it's not
always the polite thing to question, but also like because
it wasn't safe for me to question sometimes, Right, you

(17:25):
talk about that authenticity, it's like, yeah, I am way
more authentic now than I ever was when I was
a Christian because I had to and my worst put
on a mask that didn't fit me, and and my best,
you know, put the good parts about me and fit
that into the religion. And when you know it should
have been it shouldn't have been that way. It should

(17:45):
have been I'm the person that I am, And how
can I make myself better? Not how can I be
better for Jesus or whatever?

Speaker 2 (17:52):
You know? Like that's yeah, right, And what does better
look like for me? Right? Like I think this concept
of you know, of perfection, or this concept of the
idealized version of yourself being dictated by someone else, Like
that's the problem. Like that religion teaches you that there's
nothing about you that's inherently good, That you are nothing,

(18:13):
you know, but a big old bag of bad, right,
And it's hard to push that aside because when when
that negativity gets into your mind, it's it's really difficult
to root it out. So I think being able to
recognize like, no, like I do have good qualities, Like
I'm not an asshole, Like I'm a decent human being.
There may be some things that I want to work
on and I want to improve, but that's the duality

(18:35):
of being a human. But I don't know that religion
allows you to do that because it forces you to
continuously see yourself as something that's broken and that they
are the only thing that can offer you something to
prepare yourself. And that's just not that's just not true.

Speaker 1 (18:50):
Yeah, that's absolutely true. I want to ask you a
question I don't know because I didn't ask you about
this before, but how is your relationship with the rest
of your family now? Can I ask you about that?
Are they yeah? Are they cool with what you're doing now?
Are they? Or? Well, you know, what do they feel
about that?

Speaker 2 (19:05):
They are probably watching as we speak now. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:09):
My dad really was the only one before he died.
My dad died ten I think eleven years ago now,
he was the only one that was still kind of
holding on. But I think he was kind of I
think it was all just for I don't want to
say he was faking it, but I think it was performative.
I think it was just what he thought he needed
to do and give to us, to be a good dad.

(19:30):
My mother she told me later like recently, she never believed.
She just went because it was something my dad wanted
to do. My oldest sister, like I said, she was
never really into it. Even when we have conversations now,
she doesn't remember very much of it. And then my
middle sister, like I said, she's always been the one
like this doesn't make any sense to me, but not

(19:51):
necessarily the route of deconstruction in terms of having conversations
with people about the Bible or about the you know,
falsifiability of the Bible and its claims. But luckily, I
say all the time, I'm super lucky. I've not had
any any immediate family that had any issues with it.
My childhood best friend did tell me that we can't

(20:11):
be friends anymore, which, yeah, it hurt because we were.
We were absolutely inseparable. But recently there's been a i
think a change on updata and the Joho's witness ideology
around this fellowship or inactive people, so they can.

Speaker 1 (20:27):
Really yeah, oh that's news to me. So how does
I guess they have a prophet that says, oh, hey,
God actually gave me a policy update. How does that work? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (20:35):
Well, They call it the light getting brighter, which is weird.
But yeah, so the the governing body, which is like
the managing group of men in New York, they come
out with these new policies in this.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Way a group of men, because it is it's absolutely.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Yeah, women, I mean, women can't do shit in this organization.
I'm not going to lie to you. It's I think,
and the new a new change. All also, as they
just started letting women wear pants inside the Kingdom Hall
before you can only wear skirts.

Speaker 1 (21:06):
Okay, okay, wow, all right, catching up to the times. Incredible.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
Yeah yeah, so I guess, you know, Jehovah's trying to,
you know, keep it more twentieth century. I don't know
what he's doing. And the crazy part about it, I
think about it now, I'm like, I really believe this shit,
Like I really thought that these random eight white dudes
in New York were literally talking to a god. Like
what was I thinking? But that's what indoctrination does.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah yeah, yeah, you know you don't get those you
don't get those details day one, you know. Yeah that
comes a bit later.

Speaker 2 (21:41):
Yeah, fine for information onto like year seven, not immediately.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
That can the same thing with scientology. You know, you
don't get the deep cuts until Yeah, we're into it, right. Wow,
that's so interesting. Yeah, so I guess they're they're updating
policy there. I would love to hear more about that.
But I want to take a quick break from this
converse because I want to bring Kelly in, because Kelly
is our backup post today. Hello, Kelly, how's it going.

(22:07):
You're muted of course, Kelly, you know, of course.

Speaker 3 (22:11):
And I've been doing so good at that too. I
haven't don it in such a long time.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
You were doing good for about two seconds and then
you're muted there. But hey, Kelly, what's going on?

Speaker 3 (22:22):
Not much? How are you doing?

Speaker 1 (22:23):
Dan doing good? Kelly doing good? I understand you have
our Question of the Week results last week.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
I do have them. Last week we asked if you
could rewrite the Bible, what would it say? And we
got a whole bunch of great answers.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
I was reading through them.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
Something were really good.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Well, I'm excited to hear about these because I thought
it was a great question. So I want to hear
this for sure.

Speaker 3 (22:43):
So here are the three favorite answers that we finally picked.
Number three from Serge Heichko I'm sorry if I butchered that.
If you could rewrite the Bible, what would it say,
read more than one book and be less gullible?

Speaker 1 (22:58):
Nice? Nice, good, one short and sweet.

Speaker 3 (23:00):
Ice I like it, and then Dustin King my Bible
two point zero would be blank. The reader has to
fill it in for themselves.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
Oh okay, all right, a little shift on the genre.
It's just a notebook at that point, a very expensive,
very big notebook.

Speaker 3 (23:19):
That's kind of new ag. You know, you kind of
fit all the parts of yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (23:24):
That you know that.

Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, I talked to Dustin on the Internet a whole
time and he's not new agent at all, but it
sounded kind of that way, you could, from my new
age experience from hanging out with all those people for
so many years. But our number one answer from job
for tuna. If I if I wrote the Bible, I
would add to the first page this book contains discussions

(23:50):
of violence and sex and other scenes not suitable for
people under the age of eighteen.

Speaker 1 (23:55):
Brow true, Yeah, yeah, fair is fair. You know, if
they got to put them from Netflix, they gotta put
that in the Bible, I think. But uh yeah, there's
a pretty good answers Kelly, thanks.

Speaker 3 (24:07):
For shure good answers, and for next week we are
going to ask people to give us the answer to
if Jesus was the magician at your child's party, what
trick would you have him perform?

Speaker 1 (24:21):
Fee?

Speaker 3 (24:21):
Would you got an answer for that?

Speaker 2 (24:23):
Oh? My goodness, I just pitch on.

Speaker 3 (24:25):
The spot, didn't I?

Speaker 1 (24:26):
Yeah, you should ask me first, because I would say,
like blowing up a bunch of balloons without stopping, Like
he could just keep going and going and going and going.
You know, eventually a regular man, he gets tired. But
for the yeah, balloons for everybody.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
You know, that's that'd be a good one.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Kids party, Water in the apple juice? I don't know.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
My first thought was something similar. While all the kids
were in the backyard having fun, I'd bring Jesus into
the kitchen and chow them a keg full of water.

Speaker 1 (24:58):
Yeah yeah, well, water into apple juice though, is pretty
free free banging. I like that one, honestly. So thanks,
thank you Kelly for that question, and remember to leave
a comment below, not in the live chat if you're
watching live, but leave a comment and we will read
your answer for next week. Yeah, anything else you got

(25:20):
before we sign you off, Kelly.

Speaker 3 (25:23):
I can just go back to my cage now they
changed that.

Speaker 1 (25:27):
I'll refill your water bowl after the show. Thank you. Okay,
sounds good, but we'll see you later Kelly, and we
are back to today's program. Shout out to Kelly for
his jokes and for bringing us all the laughs. Do
you want to talk to some people want to talk?

(25:48):
All right, let's do. Before we talk to folks, we
have to thank a patron of the week because every
single week we're always giving a shout out to the
folks on Patreon, and this week's patron of the week
is going to be waiting for it, waiting for it.
Skeptic Cody. Thank you so much, Skeptic Cody, and thank
you to everybody that donates on the Patreon. You guys

(26:11):
rock for that. Go to ty dot, cc slash Patreon
t W if you'd like to be a Patron of
the week. But thank you everybody, of course. And with
that out of the way, let's get to our first caller.
We have John from Canada who wants to talk to
us today and wants to talk to us about Mormonism.
Interestingly enough, John, you are alive on truth Wanded what's.

Speaker 4 (26:33):
Up, Dan, I'll let you know. What do you think
of moms? Tell me your opinion.

Speaker 1 (26:39):
What do I think of Mormonism? Well, I think it's funny.
I saw the Book of Mormon in on Broadway this
year and I never seen the show before. And that
doesn't talk it as much. It talks a little bit
about the actual Book of Mormon. It's mostly its own story.
But you know, I've I've read things. I've talked to
Bryce Milken, Aegle who's a to the Naked Martins Topic podcast,

(27:01):
and a bunch of other Mormons ex Mormons, and they
all have very funny things to say. It are gonna
be way more insightful. But it's a very it's a
very American thing, isn't. Everybody always says it's it's it's
a very American religion and and and that has to
be true. Like I we we talked a few weeks
ago about you know, some of the verbiage that comes

(27:22):
out of the documents from the the head honchos in
the Mormon Church, and like how how they want to
proselytize to folks. And it's very corporate. It's very much
like run like a business. I mean, it's no secret
that the Mormons are some of the largest landowners, you know,
in the US and in part of the world, right
just from all the buildings and stuff that they buy

(27:44):
up for a part of the church to do you
know whatever with and uh, yeah, it I don't know,
it's it's they really take advantage of being a church.
I guess. So the average Mormon, you know, perfectly fine people.
I'm obviously gonna be more skep love the folks on high.
But it's very it's just a very funny religion to me,

(28:04):
especially the more you dive into like Joseph Smith and
his Shenanigans, you know, interpreting the tablets through a hat,
you know, and yeah, all the fun stories that come with.
Oh oh, and the fact that like bigfoots a thing
like unofficially in Mormonism because like one guy basically thought
they saw a hairy monster and they thought it was Caine,

(28:25):
you know, and Caine is I guess Bigfoot. A lot
of stuff there, But I don't know, that's my thoughts.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
What do you think, fee Oh, I think they don't
like black people, So I don't know, you know, you know,
that's true beyond that, Like, I don't know that. I'm curious.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, they changed, you know, we were talking about policy changes.
Apparently in the nineteen seventies, God was okay with black
people being in charge of the Mormon church. You know,
funny how that works.

Speaker 2 (28:50):
Yeah, I know, the magical panties and not liking like
people go with a horror past.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
Now, yeah, meeting a black Mormon, if you do, you
meet one, you gotta buy a lottery ticket, right, because
it's like, Wow, that's not too many of those, I think,
But I don't know, John, that's our thoughts. What do
you think?

Speaker 4 (29:08):
Oh? But what snagens are you praying to about? Mister
Joseph Smith, the founder of of of.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
What Shenanigan's am I referring to? Where do I even begin?
I mean? Holy cow? First of all, the guy you
know says he has these he talks to the angel Marona.
And only he's ever talked to the angel. No one's
ever seen him talk to the angel. And and there's
a group of people that claim that they have seen
the tablets but also kind of not really. And Joseph

(29:40):
is the only guy that ever really saw them, because
everyone else kind of said they saw visions of them,
which is like not the same thing, and then other
people like recanted some of their testimonies. You know, it's
it's it's it's like very sketchy. And on top of this,
you know, Joseph Smith becomes a wanted criminal. And that's
why like Utah is like kind of a thing, because

(30:01):
he kept getting kicked out of all the places he
was at, so a lot of violence that happened there.
He was he was very critical of the newspapers that
were critical of him, so there was a lot of
threats to the newspapers publishing stories about him and stuff.
I mean, you got to read a book about Joseph
Smith's life because it's it's it's pretty wild the stuff
that he was getting up to.

Speaker 2 (30:20):
I also think that at a certain point, like no
matter what a person is claiming, you got to know
ask how do they know that? Like how could you
possibly falsify what he's saying? So what are you asking
from the standpoint of do they sound credible or what's
your question?

Speaker 4 (30:36):
Oh, I just want to know if if you I
know you guys are against I know you guys are
guess I want to know if you're more against more
than Christianity are all the same.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
I don't know if I'm more against it. I mean,
like it's it's just as false as other kinds of Christianity.
And by the way, you know, I've said this before,
a lot of people say Mormons aren't Christians. They definitely
are Christians first and foremost. They follow Christ and his teachings.
They also follow some other teachings too.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
You know, they say the same thing about Jehovah's witnesses.
Dam Yeah, yeah, they is because they are not Trinitarian,
but they say the same thing.

Speaker 1 (31:11):
Yeah. So I think Christians like to distance themselves from
Mormonism because if you know, a lot of Christians see
more Mormonism a silly because of the planet stuff, and
you know, the racism, not that that's silly, but it
is silly, but it's like more bad than silly, you
know what I mean. It's it's it's it's you know.
But but the truth is, if you look at the

(31:32):
factual claims that Mormonism makes, it's the same as Christianity.
It's just some more bs on top, you know, when
you factor in Joseph Smith and the prophets that came
with him and all that stuff. So, yeah, well.

Speaker 4 (31:45):
Saying that, you say that because I think I know how,
not just not just Mormonism, but I know how all
religion came about. Aspect that, I aspect that a long
time ago. You see, a long time ago when humans
were evolving and we were coming out of right, well,
we were in a case, we were woking around the
African Sahara Desert, and we were looking up in the

(32:06):
sky wondering what the f are we doing here. We
were thinking something or someone must have put us here.
And when we saw things like fire, wind water, or
well we spins that were wondrous to us at the time,
we thought something powerful must have created that. And we
also also we must have been shocking for our ancestors

(32:27):
when they saw, well, when we saw two things A
a few on the anipol given birth and b when
the apple passed on, so as they gave them hope
that when they when a person did die, they weren't
they weren't really gone. I can it's transcended to the
twenty first century.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, I mean, there's certainly a lot of ideas about
the origins of religion, right, and some of it, as
you mentioned, are explanations for natural phenomenon, right, like giving
sort of catharsis for death, right, giving relief for death
when when the other people dying, we're kind of scared
and we and we and we don't know what that
means for us sakes essentially, right, Heaven is kind of

(33:03):
an answer for that or other kinds of afterlives, right. So,
I mean there's definitely a psychological function there. But like
when you're talking about like Mormonism, I don't know. I
think Joseph Smith was just a guy who wanted to
be a cult leader. I think some people just want
to be cult leaders, you know, And maybe Jesus was
the same way. By the way, I don't necessarily people
think this is a very controversial take. I don't think

(33:26):
it's that controversial at all when you think about folks
like David koresh Or or Joseph Smith or any of
the other founders. You know, Jesus did found his own
kind of version of Judaism, right, like Mormonism took from
Christianity in the same way that Christianity took from Judaism.
He was doing his own spin on it and had
his own teachings to it. So you know, I just

(33:46):
think that some people like having that kind of power,
and people congregate around that for one reason or another too,
you know.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
So I also think that, like, there's one thing to
be curious, and I don't disagree with you on that. Yeah,
I think that most religions stem from trying to understand
the world around us. But it's one thing to be
curious and kind of in awe when you see an
elephant give birth, and then another thing to say that
there's magical underwear. Like, I think that's kind of a
bridge too far. One has nothing to do with the other.

(34:13):
So it's the additional rules and the additional made up
requirements that usually accompany these high control religions that just
make absolutely no sense to me.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
Yeah. Well, you know, there's psychological safeguarding and being part
of a group, right, you know, And I think I
think Mormon that kind of because the underwear stuff and
all that. You know that that happens on a higher
level with Mormonism. You know that casual Mormons don't always
do that kind of thing, right, It happens for specific
ceremonies and stuff, right, And so we joked earlier about
like these sorts of initiations, you know, like that it

(34:47):
is part of a I don't know. Some people have
a desire to ascend and move themselves higher up in
some sort of hierarchy, right, and we build these social
sort of dynamics to be able to do that, sometimes
for better or worse. So a lot going on there, John,
But we gave our thoughts. What do you think?

Speaker 4 (35:07):
Oh, I think I think that might be true? Was saying. However,
I'm going to say, is is that that's chief searching?
Shall we will find the truth?

Speaker 1 (35:18):
Don't I would agree with that. If God wants to
come talk to me, the lines are open, you know,
I was saying that for a while. But so far
I've only ever heard about God through other people. Isn't
that interesting?

Speaker 4 (35:29):
Okay, down and ask you a first of question. If
God called his soul right now, let's say, hang off
this poem and the next person who calls is God?
Would you take us? Would he take?

Speaker 2 (35:38):
What?

Speaker 4 (35:38):
Do you take his call?

Speaker 1 (35:38):
Would I take his call?

Speaker 2 (35:39):
Hell?

Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yeah, I take his call? Yeah, I'd be scared not to,
to be honest, right, God's not exactly a nice guy,
all things considered. When you when you look at all
the stories, sometimes he is, but a lot of times
he'd get pretty mad if you don't. But I don't
know what about you if if God was calling, you'd
pick up the phone.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
Yeah, yeah, I have plenty of questions though, Yeah, yeah,
that's true.

Speaker 4 (36:01):
Risks his ire by having this show, but by him.

Speaker 1 (36:05):
I think God has a lot more stuff to worry
about than me hosting a Collin show. Right. There are
people get killed, there are people getting abused all the
time in much worse ways. I if blaspheby is the
worst thing I do, then so be it. But it's
not because I wasn't open to talking to him. That's

(36:27):
definitely not the case.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
And I mean, don't don't you think John that if
if God is, he holds all the power right Like,
there's nothing that he can't access. He knows where the
fuck I live, right like he if he wants to
talk to me, he can do that. But like to
to Dan's point, the moment a human stops speaking about him,
we don't hear from him. So if if his his goal,

(36:50):
like I think about my relationship with my child, if
I want to ensure that I have a close relationship
with my child, then there are certain things that I
have to do as the authority figure. I don't see
why that would be any different for God.

Speaker 4 (37:01):
Okay, but I see, But but what have you got wrong?
And you'll end up seeing staying before him?

Speaker 2 (37:07):
Well, I think I would be fine with that because
I'm honest right like, I honestly don't think slavery is okay.
I honestly don't think bashing babies heads against rocks is okay.
I don't think that having it's in there, you know,
I don't think those things are okay. And I'll stand
tinto's I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (37:26):
It's in Uh. He's acting about the verse that's talking
about a proverb specifically, Oh sorry, psalms, Yes, thank you, Kelly.
You can hear Kelly right now. Usually he's muted, but
now I can hear him. Thank you. Yeah, I don't
have the specific palm off the toide of my head.
But there's a song referencing the bashing of the infant's
heads of the enemy.

Speaker 4 (37:47):
Oh well, yeah, I feel I'll let you go now,
but I have a good night and say hello to
Kelly for me.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Thanks, John, will do? And what can I ask you
some before you go? John? Usually people are asking me
before they go, I want to ask you something, John,
Is that okay? Yes, you may ask Okay, if God
stood before you right now to judge you, why should
you be afraid?

Speaker 4 (38:08):
Okay? Well, if if we're talking about being who created
the universe out of nothing in six twenty four hour days,
and you have the power, and he has the power
and the tendency to dish out his his divine power
whenever he feels upset, let's not forget. Yeah, the work
destroyed song. Go and let's see what well do you

(38:31):
do the Bible? He murder a man for not infreightening
his brothers if he has the power and the tendency
to do that. If he's true and I'm not and
he's not happy with me, I'm in serious trouble.

Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah. So that's the thing, right, You're afraid because he
can commit acts of violence against you.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
Again he will?

Speaker 1 (38:52):
Yeah, I mean, is that just you think that's a
good thing?

Speaker 4 (38:57):
If you ask the question, he's going to tell you
that it is us, because anything God does.

Speaker 1 (39:01):
Is just regardless of Oh right, sure, but what about you, John?
What do you think? You know?

Speaker 4 (39:06):
When I started thinking, as I said to myself, you
know there are some things that are unacceptable and if
we're good, that can God to a parent. Even if
even if a parent does something too a child, it's
still wrong because the parent the child is a separate being.
Even though the parent came, even though the child came
from the parent, it's too, it's too a different peak,

(39:27):
there's two different people. That means you can you want
to Yeah, even if that's so, that was the case,
I have to say that, John, Okay, God would be
wrong to do anything to us, to do anything to us,
because we are separate beings from we're self aware.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
There you go, John, I like that answer. I like that.
Thanks John, I appreciate it. I won't I won't take
up your time. You have a great rest of your night.
You too, Uh Yeah, there you go, John from Canada.
What do you think the cool?

Speaker 2 (39:49):
I mean, it's it's always fascinating to me when people
are curious about religions that are so I don't want
to say fringe, but you know what I mean, like
off the beaten path, traditional Christianity. Like I would always say,
like I get being born into you know, Jehovah's witness religion,
but I can't. It's I struggle to hear or understand

(40:10):
how someone could hear it, you know, hear what the
teachings are and still sign up for it. So it's
it's just interesting. But I think people are looking for answers,
people specifically in this day and age when things are
so uncertain and chaotic. So I understand it. But yeah,
there are certain things that I just don't know that
I would be able to push past.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
I get it, Yeah, and I wonder that too, Is
it my personality?

Speaker 2 (40:35):
Is it just?

Speaker 1 (40:36):
You know, what are all these factors that contribute to
some people staying in some people leaving? Because I imagine
if you grew up in Mormonism, you'd find ways to
justify it, right.

Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, I think I found ways to justify Jehovah's witnesses.
Like I remember, I remember somebody's told me one day
that it was a cult. I'm like, no, it's not,
And I found all the reasons why it is not. Yeah,
but you know that was an interior look like and
you only know what you know, like you don't know.
We were talking about this before the show, like none

(41:07):
of us know what we don't know. And then I
think sometimes in that search for truth, there's also the
that voice in the back of your head saying, Okay,
hell might be real, you know, that fear based that thing.
But like I was saying, like I would much rather
go for truth because ultimately, if I'm performing anyway and
God is omniscient, he knows I'm faking the phonk Like

(41:29):
what am I going to do that for? Like, you
can't hide from a god that knows your own thults.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
So that's right, I have to I have to trust
that a God would be fair and just, and if
he is fair and just, he'd realize that it doesn't
make sense to me. I can't just willingly. It's like
trying to make myself believe the earth is flat. It's
like I don't I don't, you know. I understand that
people believe that and that idea exists, but I can't
make myself believe that. I have to be convinced of

(41:55):
that idea. And so if I'm not convinced, I don't
think that's a a lack of virtue for not being
convinced of that.

Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yeah, people say all the time, like what are you
going to say if God? I'll say I'm honest, Like,
you know, I honestly don't believe this shit. So it's
not like I'm pretending to your point.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
Doesn't that go back to what we were talking about
at the beginning of the show, you know, authenticity not
not a Christian value really has been.

Speaker 2 (42:21):
No, it can't be. It absolutely can't be. I mean,
think about it. It preaches this concept of like uniformity
of thought and of preferences like that's just not the
human experience. So yeah, I think it's a it's a
pipe dream from the beginning for a lot of us.

Speaker 1 (42:36):
Yeah, I mean for some people, you know, authoritarianism is
the red and butter, but not me. Yeah, I'll tell
you that not at all, folks. We still have open
lines right now. I would love to talk to anybody
who wants to call into the show. And it doesn't
have to be about Mormonism or job as witness, as
it could be about any of the usual stuff that
we talk about, you know, aliens, religion, your weird experience.

(42:57):
There was that one guy that never called me back,
and I wish he did about how he, you know,
stared into a laser and saw the code of the universe.
That was the thing that happened. I want to know
what's Yeah, so like this was on like Joe Rogan
like a year ago, there was some guy preaching that
nonsense and I think it got a lot of people
into staring into lasers, which is like not a good

(43:18):
thing to do, obviously damaging.

Speaker 2 (43:21):
Right, Yeah, it's not. I hear, it's not.

Speaker 1 (43:23):
Great for you. Never done it myself, but I don't
plan on starting it, and maybe that's my problem.

Speaker 2 (43:30):
But yeah, I've never done it, but I also would
not recommend.

Speaker 1 (43:34):
No, it's true. Yeah, so we'll keep the conversation flowing here.
Of Fia, I'd love to talk to you more about
you know, your thoughts now that you are an atheist
and and particularly you know you're wearing that shirt a
black atheist and I love that because we have these conversations. Uh,
I've had this conversation with other black content creators that

(43:55):
have been on the show, and I've heard this come
up more than once, this idea that being black and
being a Christian are also kind of hard to separate
in this idea. Is that line up with your experience
as well?

Speaker 2 (44:08):
Absolutely? Yeah, tell me it is. It is rare to
meet black people that don't love Jesus like it is
it is. I didn't have the traditional like you know
KOJK or Baptist or Holiness experience because Drove's witnesses are
very like structured, like they're not theatrical with the music
and things like that. But like there was and still

(44:31):
is a very strong correlation between being black in America
and being Christian because Christianity was the vehicle that was
utilized to you know, it was pushed upon our ancestors,
like we know the history of that. So it's really
difficult to have a conversation in with with another I

(44:51):
mean just out at Walmart, right like, or at public
you know, just this random conversation with a stranger. It
is going to come up. One of the first things
that people will ask you what church do you go to?
And when you tell them you don't like they look
at you as if you've grown like another head.

Speaker 4 (45:09):
It is.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
It's again, I've been deconstructing for over twenty years, and
I think just my resistant in stubborn nature it makes
me able to deal with it. But there are a
lot of people that it's difficult for them because of
the fact that that expectation is there. You go to
family functions that expectation to hold hands and pray and

(45:31):
you know, praise and worship forever whatever period of time
is there, and their entire communities kind of center around
this idea of Jesus. So it's hard to separate that
salt from the stew in that in that regard because
it's so very baked into so much of what Black
American culture is.

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Yeah, for sure, like Christianity is a religion of an
oppressor group. That's right, and it's and that's hard for
people to sort of think about because when we think
about that, we think about you know, people say, oh, Islam, right,
you know, Islam famously did originally did a lot of
military campaigns and stuff and occupy countries and stuff and
so so and have. That's why a lot of Africans

(46:13):
are are Muslim because there's there's there's roots there. But
like Christianity did the exact same thing, right, Like we're
Christians were out there setting their envoys and doing stuff
and and and you know, being black and being part
of that experience also meant that that was the religion
of the people that owned, uh you that you you know,
if you're a slave, that's that your slave owners were

(46:35):
probably Christian, and so you probably had access to the
same sort of religious materials. I mean, where else would
you get your get it from? Right, It's it's it's
it's hard because I remember talking about this. I had
a coworker who he was a pastor's son. He was
black and I and this is many years ago, and
I like just want to say to them, like, dude,
this is this is this is the religion that caused
so much harm for black people. I just it's hard

(46:58):
for me to get that across. But then and then
people seeing it, I don't know, it's very complicated, right
because obviously I'm white, and it's hard for me to
just say, hey, this is the religion of the oppressor.
You shouldn't believe this. But like you know, obviously it's
a black Christianity almost has developed such a different culture
from white Christians in a way, and so there's also

(47:20):
a sort of a benefit to that as well. Like
I can't say it's all bad because people have obviously
found refuge in that. So I don't know, it's it's
very complicated.

Speaker 2 (47:30):
Well, I think about it, like from the perspective of
like in the days of slavery, like being able to
congregate for the purpose of worship was the only permissible
type of congregation, right, So it became like this, this
central point for communities to gather and to convene and
to you know, socialize with each other. But I saw

(47:52):
a content creator and I cannot remember who it was,
and it was on TikTok, but she phrased it in
such I think a powerful way. She said that if
Christianity were going to free black people, it never would
have been given to them in the first place. We
know that realizing this country, like the position that we
are in, and how this country was built utilizing labor
of black people. So I think that it is still

(48:13):
looked to as a vehicle for emancipation and for liberation.
But it doesn't even have liberation it baked into it
to begin with. So I don't know how something that's
so repressive could be used for liberation. It's just kind
of of an oxymoron when you think about.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
It, one hundred percent agree with you. Look, you know Christians.
What is the stereotype of American Christians? Right?

Speaker 2 (48:35):
Like?

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Usually Southern people?

Speaker 4 (48:38):
Right?

Speaker 1 (48:39):
Hey, who was the majority slave owner population? Oh? It
was people in the South. Wait, how does that factor.
And well, because like it was okay, it has always
been okay in Christianity to own slaves. This idea of
of you know, separating that is a much newer idea
that historically did not have that same uh presidents that

(49:02):
we hold it today. A lot of Christians day like
to say, oh, well it was Christians that freed the slaves,
but it was Christians that owned the slaves in the
first place. Like it's just it's it's crazy.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Do you think they were fighting again? Also Christians over
there too.

Speaker 1 (49:18):
Yeah. Liberation theology, I love it, it's great. I just
wish that was the way from the beginning. Liberation theology
comes as a response, not as an origin point.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
Right, So now you're seeing like it kind of being
moon walked back a little bit because I saw a
preacher the other day that was it was a clip
of him saying, like, you know, slavery is not bad
and as a Christian you're going to have to figure
out a way to accept that. And I'm like, I'm sorry,
what that's the worst? Yeah, right, we are, we are

(49:51):
in the upside down because how can you And I
mean the reality is the book supports that that's what
clearly supports that. So the irony is that that guy
is more closely aligned with what the Bible says as
opposed to the one that's teaching abolition.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
Crazy. You're absolutely right, and that's why, you know I
make that concession earlier. I'm like, yeah, this is the
one thing I agree with younger creationists. I agree with
that guy. Yeah, if you look at the Bible straight on. Yeah,
there's nothing, absolutely nothing that says, hey, this institution is wrong.
Actually it shouldn't be held. It is, if anything normalized. Yeah,
at best.

Speaker 2 (50:26):
Right, that's Thinker and I were talking earlier this week
about you know, the social experiment with the lady calling
the churches to ask for baby formula and all of
them turning her down and things like that. How there
are a lot of Christian content creators making response videos
and they're like, you know, Jesus would tell you to
do this for your neighbor, Like, uh no, you wouldn't,
like if you were a fellow Israelite perhaps, But I

(50:48):
think that gets back to what we were saying earlier.
How most your typical PU sitting Christian has not really
read this book. They haven't looked into like the historical context.
They don't know that love your neighbor is is your
fellow Israelite. There were completely different rules for dealing with
people who were not. So it's a lack of education,
it's misinformation, and I think a lot of it is

(51:10):
by design because it keeps people in a controllable state.

Speaker 1 (51:13):
Yeah, you're so right. I want to speak to that
because you know, this doesn't get said enough if you
if you look at the Old Testament and just take
it as it is, it is a Jewish supremacist and
that's that wasn't uncommon, right, That wasn't It's not exclusive
in that, right, there's other surrounding nation states that also,
and religion is very much tied to nation states, right,

(51:34):
the state of Israelism is tied to the Jewish religion.
This was a religion by and for Jewish people, and
that's why they are God's people. If if if you
cringe at the idea of white guys saying white people
are God's chosen people, that phrase comes from being explically
like it's just you know, and so yeah, Christianity was

(51:55):
radical in the sense that it sort of liberates itself
from that idea. Of course, I know you that you
know this, but for listeners, and we talked about this
before on the show, but you'll see debates in the
New Testament between Paul and Peter talking about, Hey, is
this for the Jews or is this for the Gentiles?
The fact that they're even having to talk about that
means it was controversial, right, Like, it wasn't widely accepted,

(52:18):
So you know, it's we're very universalist in our Christianity now,
but that wasn't always the case. And obviously, like you know, now,
does it support you know, theories of class oppressor versus
the oppress? Yes, but it was for a very very
particular time and place certainly, you know, not for the

(52:40):
dynamics we have today. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
And then clearly it's been remixed over forty five thousand
different times because we have these forty five thousand different denominations.
So if the people who wrote the book couldn't agree
on what the book was saying, and we see forty
five thousand different variations of what the book is saying, like,
at what point do we realize the book saying shit
like that we can actually utilize for any sort of

(53:04):
reliable direction.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Yeah, Jesus being a remix of Ye, well it's just
a never ending remix, yeah for sure. But you know
we're preaching to the choir here somewhat. I think on
this because you know that what we just talked about
in the last five minutes there is like the most
I don't know, one of the most important I want

(53:26):
to say truths about this religion to me. Like, if
you ask me what's going to be the hardest thing
for me to overcome, there's obviously like the existence of
God stuff, but the idea of becoming a Christian, like
I have to overcome all of that historical reality like
of the religion, and obviously none of that was taught
to me in church. Zero percent of that, like maybe

(53:48):
a factor two. But all that comes through academic study,
like secular academic study, and Christians will never get access
to that information unless we talk about.

Speaker 2 (53:58):
Right right, And I think like in the day and
age of TikTok and social media, I think the academic
information is more readily available and more readily accessible, which
is great, but the problem is are they going to
be willing to listen to it? Because if you can't
talk to a person about the fact that this book
has been translated a million different times, and what the

(54:21):
original language was and who the original audience was, that
this text was written to the vast majority of Christians
that don't care about that, Like they are Christians by culture,
they are Christians because they've absorbed this belief system passed
on to them for their families. So they don't know
that this book says, you know, this God is saying
you can have slaves. You know, they don't know these things.

(54:44):
I've never read that verse a day in my life,
and I was a Jo's witness for over thirty years. Right, So,
like most people don't read those problematic scriptures, and I
think that those in leadership avoid them and skip over
them intentionally, and so.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Crazy that most Christians in Christian history weren't able to
even read it themselves because there was an exclusivity on
the language, right right, right, Like how wild is that?
I don't know? It's like because I it's good that
you point that out, because like, I don't know. I
have to remind myself that being atheist is kind of
a privilege in a way, because my social and economic

(55:23):
standing definitely gave me access to the resources that I
got to have to be educated and to figure out
some of the stuff that I've been able to figure out, right,
Like would I still be a Christian if I didn't
go to college? Maybe? Would I still be a Christian
if I didn't have access to the various resources that
I have in the year twenty twenty five and not
nineteen oh five. I don't know. If I was born

(55:44):
nineteenth five, I'd probably still be a Christian because I
didn't they didn't have all the commentaries and stuff that
I've read about biblical scholarship and things like that, So
I don't know. Yeah, TikTok is a very interesting platform
for that because on the one hand, you have the
maybe one of the largest fire hoses of misinformation possible,

(56:05):
just kind of sweeping the Internet, And on the other hand,
you have folks like yourself who are talking to folks
and trying to correct the record as they were. So yeah, yeah,
I don't know what to do with that. Folks. We
still have open lines here, and I'm disappointed. I want
you to call in so you can talk to Fee
because this is supposed to be a call in show, okay,
And you're making me look bad right now because I

(56:28):
know we have callers out there, please come talk to us.
Let us have a conversation. From now, we might bring
Kelly in because uh, I think Kelly said you wanted
to join in. What's up? Kelly? You're muted again? Dang, Kelly,
you're offered to on this.

Speaker 2 (56:43):
I can't believe that.

Speaker 3 (56:44):
I was thinking to myself because we talked, talked about
bringing me up in the chat, and I was like,
I got to make sure I.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
Heard you laugh earlier too. You weren't muted or mute
like I know right.

Speaker 3 (56:55):
Well with the psalms thing.

Speaker 1 (56:57):
You were there were Yeah, you did check. You got
to if you third partied that real hard and that
threw me off because I'm not used to hearing you talk.
Well I'm talking to somebody else. But yeah, that was helpful.
Thanks for that.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Are you going to do that?

Speaker 1 (57:09):
But it was appropriate at the time, and U I was.
I would.

Speaker 3 (57:13):
I was really interested when Fee was talking about how
you know how it's how Christianity was really used to
to keep the black race down trodden. I don't want
to say black people down trodden, right, and and I
have and I've shown it before, but I have a
book that was published in the anti Bellum South in
eighteen fifty one. That's the Bible Defense of slavery. Oh wow,

(57:36):
all Defense slavery the BIE. And as you can see,
it's like thicker than a Bible. So it's And the
crazy thing about it was it was actually written by
a minister.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
Yeah really yeah, so and it is.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
It is literally the most racist thing I've ever read.
When we were doing soundchecks and I was looking for
a book to read, I almost picked it up.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
A no, tell me that you almost picked that book.

Speaker 2 (58:02):
I read the Bible. So I'm just saying, right, I
did get.

Speaker 3 (58:06):
Passage out of this once on nonprofits to just to uh,
you know, show how how racist the pro slavery side
was at that time, because I mean it totally was.
I mean, they didn't even think of they didn't even
think of blacks as people, and that was that is
just so fucking wrong.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:25):
Yeah, there's definitely a part of that. Like and and
I I interned a little bit at Baylor University. I
didn't go to school there, but yeah, I lived in Waco.
So I also found some texts from because they have
a they have the Texas Collection at Baylor, which is
the largest collection of Texas artifacts, right, and so I
had access to a lot of material there and I

(58:45):
found stuff of also like Christians writing of the time
saying in the defense of slavery, because we talked about
this earlier, but yes, there are Christians liberating this, but
there was just as many defending the institution. Because it's
like anything with Christianity, like nothing is actually set in
stone and can be like reinterpreted away to whatever. So

(59:07):
again I'm glad that interpretation sort of won out in
the end, but it's like, right, it wasn't credible to
begin with, like it just didn't you know, like the
book didn't start with good human values at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (59:21):
You know, I don't think it ever had any right.

Speaker 3 (59:26):
If you were Jew, if you were a Hebrew, right, yeah,
but you know we were talking about there's nothing specifically
in the Bible that was you know, teaching that drowned,
that downtrodden thing, and there is. It's the piatitudes, right, yeah,
don't don't make a fuss, don't rock the boat, just
you know, kick back and accept it all and be
meek and don't and you know, yeah, and that was

(59:48):
that's exactly what they wanted. Slaves to learn, right, that
was the thing.

Speaker 1 (59:54):
So meakness, Yeah, what were you going to say, fee,
you were going to say something sorry.

Speaker 2 (59:58):
No, you're good, it's gone. It may be back later.
You're fine. But we were talking to a god in
a loud this morning who was saying that same thing, like,
you know, if more people follow Christ, then the world
would be better. And we were kind of going through
this thing like, you mean, like just let people abuse you,
like and turn the other cheek, like constantly be in
this subservient position. How is that going to be beneficial

(01:00:20):
for anybody but folks who are going to abuse the
fact that you feel like you're required to do that.
So I think it just kind of sets this this
framework to allow for folks to be taken advantage of
and used and that that that position is what they
believe brings them favor to God, which is insane to me,
because why would a god want you to humiliate yourself

(01:00:42):
consistently for the purpose of proving what? Like I just
I don't I don't get it.

Speaker 3 (01:00:48):
Why would a god even need worshippers at all?

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
I mean that part, you know, that's what feels his powers.
I think, you know, a gauge. Yeah, it has in
the tank. Yeah, you gotta get the worship percent. I
don't know, I'm just I'm just spitballing here.

Speaker 2 (01:01:03):
What did he do before? People though?

Speaker 4 (01:01:05):
Like?

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
How did he not run out of gas?

Speaker 1 (01:01:07):
Chilling kick? I'm not saying my interpretation is biblically sound.
I'm just saying it.

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
You know, sound is optional, Dan, like you know the.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Yeah, you're right about that one. I mean, I don't know,
we're not the first people to say this, but well,
it's like, why make the rules if you're going to
be mad about people breaking them? If you give them
the option to break it just does make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
You know.

Speaker 1 (01:01:32):
Uh. People say the free will thing, but you know,
like I don't have the free will to set Kelly's
head on fire right now, right, Like, that's not an
ability for me. Would the world be a better place
if I had that ability to do that at any time?
I don't think so, not for me, definitely. Yeah. So
it's like, why do I need the ability to kill
people or the ability to to cause harm and unjust ways?

(01:01:55):
Like I don't. I don't have to actually do that
if I was built different, you know, if I was
like a robot. But you know, I don't know it
does make sense. It doesn't make sense.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
It does. None of it does though. I mean from
the beginning it doesn't make sense. But again you'd have
to read the book to know that it doesn't make sense,
which most Christians are not going to do. They just
listen to what people tell them to believe about it
and then like come in with their whole chest like
advocating for it, like my guy, that's not in the book.
You're not going to find that anywhere in the book,

(01:02:24):
but they've been convinced to believe that it is.

Speaker 1 (01:02:26):
So yeah, I'd like to know when your conversations with
folks on tiktoks. I imagine you know, we probably share
similar conversations. Is it mostly Christians that you're talking to
about Christianity or do you ever get to like to
other religions and do they question you on that?

Speaker 2 (01:02:44):
Well, it depends on the panel. Like Thinker's panel is
Christian either you know current Christian deconstructing or an atheist.
There are other deconstruction content creator and live hosts that
will will entertain like spiritualists or Muslim or you know,
people of other faiths. So it is primarily Christian, but

(01:03:04):
we get a little bit of everything in these conversations.
You'll be surprised the moment you would not be surprised.

Speaker 1 (01:03:12):
Yeah, I definitely believe it. You know, I've actually talked
to a lot of people from from different walks of life,
just like we try to do here when we have
calls of the post to Tan too. But we are
currently experiencing open lines right now. I just so, I
just got a message and yeah, I noticed you used
this to Kelly, and I don't want to call you

(01:03:35):
live here. Go ahead call me if you want to
speak to that, that'd be great, or or I can
say to you all just the use of the word
there if you want.

Speaker 3 (01:03:42):
To, Yes, that's and I apologize completely.

Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
So that was my bed well specifically if you you know,
don't mind talking about it, or just like because I
don't anyway use of the word blacks specifically.

Speaker 3 (01:03:54):
Blacks instead of black people. And I apology completely apologize
for that. That was my slip of the tongue and
I didn't mean anything by it in any way, shape
or form.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
Yeah, thank you, Kelly, Thank you appreciate that. And like
you know, I want to give Kelly credit here. I've
known Kelly for a long time. Okay, you know, we
do this stuff live and sometimes we don't always use
the best words, So I, you know, thank you for that.

Speaker 3 (01:04:14):
Sometimes both of my brain cells get stuck together. And lately,
you know, I did have a stroke about five weeks ago,
and I'm not gonna I'm not saying that that's the
cause of it, but I had been using that just
an excuse for almost everything since then, so I'm going
to pull that out. But yeah, it was bad. That
was really bad on my part, and I fully apologize
for it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
Thank you. Thank you for that, Kelly.

Speaker 3 (01:04:34):
And if anybody wants to stop by my store tomorrow
and slap me in the face for it, feel free.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
Okay, well let's maybe not go that far, but I
I appreciate you doing that, Kelly, because I know it's
kind of awkward, but you know, I'm glad we could
we could address it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:48):
So but yeah, and I also think, like you know,
in we have to leave space for people to be human, right, yeah,
you know, and if you recognize that you said something
and you admit it, like we've got we've got to
leave space for people to be human. And I appreciate
you acknowledging it.

Speaker 1 (01:05:05):
It's okay, and you know what like, so look just
the level with you here. I use the wrong word
a few weeks go on a different scream when I
was talking about little people and I use the word midgets.
And I was so embarrassed when I did that because
I know little people in real life and I would
never use that word, but I was using it in

(01:05:27):
the because we were talking about somebody else that used it,
and when I was bringing up the subject, it slipped
down for me. So you know what, you know, it
is what it is. It's out there on the internet now,
and you know, I apologize for it, and I'm glad
we could make that same space. So it's it's, you know,
not that big a deal, I think at the end
of the day, Kelly, because I know you and I
know your heart, but I know how you feel.

Speaker 3 (01:05:49):
Dam because I'm embarrassed as all hell right now.

Speaker 1 (01:05:51):
So it's okay because I want to hold I'm glad
because you know, Kelly, if I if we don't hold
ourselves in novel as hosts to the same we hold
our callers because I know, you know, if a caller
said that I would probably bring that up to right,
so it gus what at the end of the day, So, uh,
I want to move on from that subject so we
can talk about something else. I think we addressed it.

(01:06:13):
So you know, let's talk again about Jehovah's witnesses real
quick and then and then maybe you know, we can
we can have a little bit of a shorter show today.
But you know, talking about Jehovah's witnesses, you are a
part of the religion. You're no longer part of the religion,
and you still know people who are part of the religion,
but a lot of them aren't your family. There are

(01:06:34):
other people that grow with you. You're now content career
talking about it now that you're completely out of it.
And there's doubtless somebody out there who may be listening,
who may be having thoughts maybe once lya but don't
have a specific way how because this show doesn't address
the concerns of specifically of Jehovah's witnesses. What would you
tell somebody who is maybe struggling with that, wow is

(01:06:59):
I think.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
The first thing I would say is read Crisis of
Conscience by Ree France, who is a former governing body member,
and I think when this was way back in the day,
it was like the book that we were told was
just like the devil imprinted form growing up. But I
would say read that first and foremost, and then research
the actual origins of the organization. Research Russell, who is

(01:07:25):
the founder of the organization, and I know that I
would say trust that through this journey there will be
a point in time where you learn how to trust
your own mind again, because it does feel as though
when you've been indoctrinated, you don't know what to believe.
You don't really you don't know if what you hold
in your mind is something that you truly have been

(01:07:46):
convinced is true or something that you've been told to
believe is true. So it's a it's an exercise that
requires a whole lot of work. It will not happen overnight,
but it is possible because ultimately on the other side
of that journey is who you actually are, as opposed
to who you've been told you were supposed to be

(01:08:07):
your entire life.

Speaker 1 (01:08:08):
I like that. I like that because it's hard to
see ahead right because you can only kind of see yourself.
And then now I remember when I was first leaving
my own religion. Obviously mine wasn't as sort of structured
in the same way yours is, where the consequences were
going to be more dire, or at least hypothetically more dire. Right,
I was worried about what I was going to be.

(01:08:29):
Like I remember thinking, oh my god, how am I
going to date anybody? Because I live in Texas and
like everybody here believes in God, and I, like super
don't believe in God. Right, So how does that work? Right?
How am I supposed to find a partner? How am
I supposed to do job interviews? If I start talking
about this stuff online and somebody come and they look
at myself, So you know, it definitely gets better, right,

(01:08:50):
You get better because the authenticity is more valuable to
me at least than anything else.

Speaker 2 (01:08:56):
Right, it is it is, And I think like, and
I think it's worth it too, because either I think
I've all I say this all the time, like, the
worst person in the world to lie to is yourself
because you can't get away from you. So we know
inherently if we are being honest about what we believe,
if we are just being you know, if we're being
compliant for the purpose of keeping things civil or you know,

(01:09:17):
not wanting to rock the boat. And you mentioned it earlier, Dan,
like deconstructing is a privilege, Like you have to be
in a position where you don't have to rely on
the you know, the I don't know, the donations or
the help from people that are affiliated with with church
organizations and things of that nature, or you don't have
to perform for family members who want you to live

(01:09:38):
in a certain way. So it's definitely a privileged position.
But I think it's important to recognize within yourself if
you're if you're truly living a life the way that
you want to live it, or living it through someone
else's life, someone else's eyes. And I think that that's
a really big part of religion because it tells you
who to be, it doesn't allow you to grow into

(01:09:58):
the person that you actually are.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
I love that. I love every word of that. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful,
wonderful stuff. Fie, you've been a great guest on today's show.
I love talking to you. I hope I can talk
to you again in the future. But in case that
doesn't happen, where can people find you at if they
want to see more? Of your stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:10:17):
I am only on TikTok. I have amazing friend on
TikTok who let me come and hop up on their
panels and run my mouth and I enjoy it. They
are amazing. So I'm on Thinkers Live, I'm on Christina's Live,
I'm on oh So's Live and Zena and I know
I'm missing some people, but yeah, Like if I'm Fie,

(01:10:38):
you always kryptonite on TikTok. If you see me on
a panel, I'm usually talking about religion.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
Absolutely absolutely, and I enjoyed talking with you today. I
think for now we're going to try to wrap things up.
I want to thank the awesome crew that helped make
this show happen every single week, and if we could
show some of the folks that help make it happen
behind the scenes, look at that and more people who
aren't on camera. Oh, Verne's got the woke is Fuck

(01:11:05):
shirt on right now? Love that, Love that Eli is
tripping out hard as always. Like the tribute. I don't
know if it's I'm not paying attention enough, if it's
the same background or not from last time, but it's
always a tribut background regardless, So thank you to everybody
to help makes this show. Kelly, before we go, what
is our question again this week, if you can.

Speaker 3 (01:11:25):
Us again, is if Jesus was the magician at your
kid's birthday party, what trick would you have him perform?

Speaker 1 (01:11:33):
Excellent? Excellent? Leave a comment below if you want to
figure out not on the chat on the side, do
it in the comment section and before we peace out.
I always like to ask, or try to ask, so
I don't do it every time, but I want to
ask you feet you got any words of wisdom you
want to share? You kind of just gave some words
of wisdom, but you know something short, something pithy, something

(01:11:56):
you know.

Speaker 2 (01:11:58):
I don't know. I think you know, hmmm, words of wisdom?
Question everything, question absolutely everything, And honestly Bash says this
on TikTok all the time. The questions are God's to
the answers, right Like, So the more we get in

(01:12:18):
get in the habit of pushing against the status quo
and asking why, like how do you know that?

Speaker 1 (01:12:24):
Who told you that? Like?

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
Ask those questions and they may be uncomfortable for other people,
but other people's comfort does not have to become your
compass because as an individual, I get to direct where
I want to go. I get to forge this path,
and even though this path may not necessarily be something
that someone else wants to walk with me, that's perfectly fine.
But don't be afraid to ask those questions because as

(01:12:48):
far as we know, this is the only life we get.
And I'm I don't I don't want to put my
requirements on other people. But I don't want to live
it by anybody else's rules other than mine, and I
want to I want to enjoy it while I'm here.

Speaker 1 (01:13:00):
Yeah, don't live by anyone else's rules and enjoy while
you're here.

Speaker 3 (01:13:04):
Some words of wisdom real quick?

Speaker 1 (01:13:06):
Oh, Kelly does okay?

Speaker 3 (01:13:07):
You get a chance to watch fee on TikTok do it?

Speaker 1 (01:13:09):
She's awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
There you go, Kelly.

Speaker 1 (01:13:11):
That's the words of wisdom, folks. This has been another
episode of truth Wanted. I'm objectively Dan. Remember to always
keep wanting the truth, and we'll see you next time.
By watch the nonprofits and join the hosts in the
live chat. Visit tiny dot cc slash y t n

(01:13:35):
b