October 29, 2025 • 40 mins
Bestselling authors William Bernhardt (The Superman Wars) and Lara Bernhardt discuss the latest news from the book world, offer writing tips, and interview Sam J Miller and Mary Robinette Kuwal, both award-winning authors of one-half of a new science fiction "Saga Double."
0:00 Opening Thoughts
How are you celebrating Halloween?
05:03 News
1) Lawsuit Over Amazon Prime Cancellations Settled
2) TikTok and Spotify Launch New Joint Hub
12:43 Craft Corner
Betsey Kulakowski, author of the Veritas Codex series, offers advice on character and world-building, and how the two interact.
15:35 Interview with Mary Robinette Kuwal and Sam J Miller
Parting Words
Mark your calendar for the WriterCon Cruise!
MARCH 7TH - 15TH
8-DAY EASTERN CARIBBEAN: GREATER ANTILLES & LEEWARD ISLANDS
When the boat is at sea, we'll offer more than 20 hours of writing instruction, group and individual, plus we'll have Katharine Sands of the Sarah Jane Freymann Agency on board to meet privately with each participant. Don't miss it! Click here for more information.
0:00 Opening Thoughts
How are you celebrating Halloween?
05:03 News
1) Lawsuit Over Amazon Prime Cancellations Settled
2) TikTok and Spotify Launch New Joint Hub
12:43 Craft Corner
Betsey Kulakowski, author of the Veritas Codex series, offers advice on character and world-building, and how the two interact.
15:35 Interview with Mary Robinette Kuwal and Sam J Miller
Parting Words
Mark your calendar for the WriterCon Cruise!
MARCH 7TH - 15TH
8-DAY EASTERN CARIBBEAN: GREATER ANTILLES & LEEWARD ISLANDS
When the boat is at sea, we'll offer more than 20 hours of writing instruction, group and individual, plus we'll have Katharine Sands of the Sarah Jane Freymann Agency on board to meet privately with each participant. Don't miss it! Click here for more information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
It would be to trust your own taste. You have
been honing your taste for decades as a reader for
your entire life, and you can trust that when you're writing.
So don't try to write to someone else's taste. Write
for your own taste.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhard, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want LNN Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
us today. It's getting close to Halloween, right, so I
have dressed appropriately in orange and black. I'm wondering what
costumes will be popular this year. I of course thought
about dressing up for Superman, you know, thinking of my
new book, The Superman Warris problem is I would have
(00:59):
to buy like that chest padding that George Reeves used
to wear in the old fifties television series, and plus
there are no Superman candies. I suppose I could hand
out my book to tricker treaters and they would probably
throw it back at me. And ask where the candy is?
So maybe not Laura. How are you costuming this year?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Hell, I'm not sure. I've made a final decision. What
might I might do Mortitia Adams again. Natural time that
I dressed as Mortitia, no one seemed to know who
I was or what I was doing. But I think
with Wednesday being out and popular on Netflix that I
(01:45):
might actually get recognized this time.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I tried to do Gomez, but I don't think anyone
was convinced, probably because I don't.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Have the mustache.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Maybe Jesse, how do you and Michelle celebrate Halloween?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Well, this year we're actually going to be in Vegas
for hallowe because we're saying that live you know, uh
D and D playing comedians that we like, and so
we're gonna We're gonna do with what's called casual cosplay,
where we dress up with some of the characters from
the story, but not go crazy because you know, that
(02:17):
requires a lot of luggage. So for for any of
our listeners who are also drop out fans, and when
we're dressing up as Barry six, so for the people
get that reference, I love you. I will say There'll
probably be a lot of K pop Demon Hunter Halloween outfits.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
This year, which I'm very excited.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah, so uh something for girls and boys. We've seen
the movie, right, I mean us and everybody else on
the earth. So I'm curious about this Vegas thing. I mean,
these guys are the jokes. Are they playing D and
D while they make jokes?
Speaker 6 (02:48):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yes, so they're playing up So they're all they're all good.
They're all good D and D players now, And they're
also originally and still are great improvisers. And the campaign
is run by someone who's an incredible storyteller and great improviser,
and so the live shows are very much just like
the wackiest versions of these stories, and they just sort
of go along with it and the crowd gets involved.
(03:09):
And again I was in Maskins Square Garden and a
character rolled a natural twenty and twenty two thousand people
lost their minds.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
It was great.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I'm very excited to see it again.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
But D and D games go on for a long time,
don't they.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
He's the DM Brandley Mulligan is very good at like
he knows he's done. They've done of live shows now
he knows how to make it like two hours and
fifteen minutes almost exactly, and then you know you can tell,
with like thirty minutes left, he's already beginning to wrap
it up, and they're they're incredibly entertaining a lot of fun.
I have no memory of what actually happened at any
(03:49):
of the ones I've seen now, Like I said, I
have to rewatch them when they release them, but they're
great when I'm there.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Are you going to see the Spear while you're there?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I would love to go in it. I don't know
if I'll be able to. I'll definitely see it physically.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Sit through the Wizard of Oz or if.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
It's still playing. I kind of kind of want to, so.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
I think you should. While you're there, I.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Can just yell people how Oz is terrifying and no
one wants to live there.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Going back to our conversation.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Getting back to yeah, I got a writer con live episodes, Yes,
all right, our interview today. We actually have two authors
to talk to today, and that Sam J. Miller and
Mary Robinette Kowal. They are both very well established and
successful science fiction writers. Sam has the Hugo, Mary has
(04:35):
the Nebula, and she also has a hego come to
think of it, but now they're working on something together,
except kind of sort of not totally together. It's a
saga double And if you don't know what that is,
and I certainly didn't beforehand, then hang around and find out,
(04:56):
because they're really fun people to talk to. All right,
we'll get to that really soon, but first the news
(05:19):
news story number one, Amazon agrees to pay huge settlement,
a huge settlement over Amazon Prime cancelation practices. Usually stories
about Amazon involve them getting money one way or another,
but this time Amazon has actually agreed to pay two
(05:40):
and a half billion dollars to settle claims that it
basically fooled millions of people into signing up for Prime
membership and then made it very difficult for customers to
cancel when they went it out. I don't know. I've
never I've got Prime, I never tried to cancel it,
so I don't know, but I know there are other
(06:01):
things that have become so difficult to cancel. It either
takes all day or finally you just give up. In fact,
there's one I won't say that. Yeah, well it's PBS.
I've been trying to cancel that. It's five dollars a month,
and I cannot get rid of it.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And really want you really want to take away money
from public broadcasting.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Now, well that is a valid point, but there's a
PBS app coming, so it's duplicative to have both, you know.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Anyway, the settlement was.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Announced and it came after a jury's trial in Seattle
had already begun. This all comes from an FTC lawsuit
that was filed back in twenty twenty three, and it's
about this online sweeping it's online shopping service, and this
(06:51):
antitrust case that they've filed that effects about two hundred
million people. But all those people signing up for Prime,
that comes to about forty four billion dollars a year.
But of course Prime members are Amazon's best customers. They
buy more stuff, they buy it more often than people
(07:13):
aren't signed up, and so you'd think maybe Amazon would
treat them better. But I guess Amazon just never wants
to let them go. I don't know. I, like I said,
I haven't done it, Laura. Have you ever tried to
cancel your Prime membership?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
No? I have not. Actually I share your Prime.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Members Oh well you don't have to write. We'll just
be Prime together exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
We Prime together. But I know exactly what you're talking about.
I have had some other things that I have really
struggled to actually cancel. You think you've declined it, you're
signed up for it, you think that you're getting rid
of it, it keeps popping back up. That's really frustrating.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, I should make a note jest, because you're right
about what you're saying about PBS. But what I loved
most were the uh like the Ken Burns documentaries and
stuff like that, and that's all on Amazon Prime. Now,
speaking of Amazon, all those probably because of what's happening
at PBS, all those have been ported onto Amazon. What
(08:19):
do you think this business with Amazon Prime cancelation is
all about?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Just I mean, this is just one of one hundred
companies out there that you know, Amazon didn't need to
do this, right, but they were. And I've had Amazon
Prime since grad school in like two thousand and six
when I launched, So I never got tricked into a prime, right,
I've always just had it. But like, for example, if
(08:44):
there are any of our listeners who like maybe say,
have their prescriptions on Walmart, I can tell you, like
the Walmart Plus thing pops up every time you go
to the app and I accidentally joined it once, right, Like,
we shouldn't be required to have to go through you know,
mazes and answer riddles to cancel subscriptions. If if everything's
(09:04):
gonna be a subscription model, now we need some sort
of law or regulation that gives us a one clip,
one click cancelation thing.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
Yeah, right, that would be a worthwhile law, like, you.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Know, to get really nerdy, I just canceled my Xbox
Game Pass because the price was about to go up
ten dollars a month, and I was honestly surprised that
one it only took one click, and two they didn't
try to offer me a lower price to stay. I
was kind of expecting the lower price to stay and
I did not get it. So now I'm just out
and also the by games like a regular person. But
(09:38):
that was actually easy. It shouldn't be hard.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
It shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
This is what like the FTC is supposed to protect
us from.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yes, exactly, Well maybe now they've done us some good. Okay,
news story number two. You've heard a lot of talk
about TikTok and book talk on this podcast before, but
this story is about TikTok and wait for it, Spotify. Yes,
they are together Spotify and TikTok launching a new hub,
(10:07):
which will be called Big on book Talk. And I
mentioned this story well in part because it's likely to
have a big impact on book sales and book authors,
but also to tell the authors listening that, if possible,
this is something you should pursue. If you're on book talk,
you know the drill. You scroll around and you tap,
(10:30):
and suddenly your two b red list is overflowing with
trendy things that look pretty good. It's not at all
unlike Spotify so is to music. So now book talk
has become the Spotify for books, a cultural phenomenon, literally
(10:51):
creating global bestsellers and connecting readers from every possible corner
of the world. But even after you've added a recommendation
to your wish lists, well, then what this is where
the new Spotify hub comes into play. Big on book
Talk they're piloting a co branded hub that turns your
(11:14):
book talk wish list into a to be listened playlist,
and through November, the community of book lovers and the
United States can dive into this dedicated space and press
play and discover all those audio books that you've been
wanting to listen to are now taking over your feeds, right,
(11:36):
It's a one stop spot for all the trending audio
books that are so good you won't even want to
pause them. Jesse, I'll turn to you because I think,
do I remember correctly? You use Spotify sometimes occasion, yes,
for audio books or just music.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
No.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I mean, here's the thing. As hard as Spotify tries
to get audiobooks, the audio book listener is not using Spotify.
Like they are two different people. Like I wish them luck,
I don't think this is going to be that useful.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Well, you know, Spotify has tried before to make a
mark in the world of audio books, and I don't
think it's really caught fire yet, so this is probably
yet another try. Laura, the most important question for us
is how can we get our books on this hub?
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Any thoughts have a book that people go crazy for
on TikTok, Yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Then somehow spotify it.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
But yeah, the most of.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Course, if people are going crazy for your book on TikTok,
that maybe all you need, you know, But.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
It's probably a pretty good driving factor, yeah, I would imagine.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
So all right, let's turn to Craft Corner this time
around for a Craft Corner segment. We're going to hear
from longtime writer con friend Betsy Kulakowski. She's the author
of the Veritas Veritas Codex series. Try and say that
three times fast, Veritas Codex and the eighth, Yes, eighth
(13:10):
book in her science fiction fantasy Adventures series is on
the horizon. Start reading the other seven so you'll be
ready for the Sultan's Stone. All right, Today she's going
to talk about a subject she knows very well, or
the combination of two subjects, world building and character, and
(13:31):
how the two are related. Take it away, Betsy.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Craft Corner.
Speaker 7 (13:40):
Hi, this is Betsy Koulikowski, best selling author of the
Veritas Codex paranormal thriller series, and I'm here with today's
Craft Corner. One of the most important things that I
have learned in writing thrillers is that character and world
building really aren't separate. In fact, they feed each other.
A character doesn't exist in a vacuum world. They live
(14:00):
in shapes who they are, how they think, and the
choices they make. For example, when I'm writing doctor Lauren
Grayson in the Veritas Kodec series, it's really her courage
and her curiosity that I think make her a great protagonist,
but those traits mean more because of the dangerous and
mysterious worlds that she steps into. The settings are ancient ruins,
(14:20):
hidden chambers, secret societies, but those aren't just backdrops. They're
there to test her, to tempt her, and to reveal
her strengths and flaws that she didn't even know she had.
When I approach world building, I ask myself what would
challenge my characters most. If the environment is hostile, unfamiliar,
(14:41):
or even morally complex, then every decision matters more. At
the same time, I also want to think about the
character's past and how that shapes how they see the world.
A scientist like Lauren might notice details that others miss,
but she's also a skeptic, so she might even resist
believing what's right there in front of her, and that
interplay is where tension lives. When readers say they love
(15:04):
a character, it's often because the world forced them to
grow in.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
A way that was believable.
Speaker 7 (15:09):
And when they say they feel immersed in the world,
it's usually because the characters are experiencing it through really
authentic emotions. So the takeaway for writers is this, build
your world around the cracks and your character. Then let
that world push them until something breaks or they transform.
When character and world collide, that's where the spark of
(15:31):
story ignites. Keep writing.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Thank you Betsy Kulakowski. And remember who knew her new book,
The Sultan Stone, the eighth book in the Veritas Codec series.
You could order it today and I think you should.
For now, let's talk to our interview guests, and that's
Sam J. Miller and Mary Robinette Kowal.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
Sam J.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Miller and Mary Robinette Kowal, thank you so much for
being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Thank you so much for inviting us. It's a real honor.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Well, we have a traditional first question on this show,
and so I guess we'll let you both answer one
at a time. Mary Robinette, I'll go to you first.
If you could offer writers one piece of advice, what
would it be? I know you could probably do a million,
but pick.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
It would be to trust your own taste. You have
been honing your taste for decades as a reader for
your entire life, and you can trust that when you're writing.
So don't try to write to someone else's taste. Write
for your own taste.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, it sounds like good advice to me. Sam, how
about you? What would you throw out there?
Speaker 6 (16:46):
Yeah, so that is great advice, and mine is sort
of the opposite, but not it feels like it's not.
It's you know, I feel like the thing that was
hardest for me to learn, and that therefore the thing
that I would advise, that I would give to folks
is that community is everything. Like building community, bombing with
other writers, making friends with other writers, understanding that other
writers are not your competition, they're your allies, they're your support.
(17:08):
Reading very widely among your peers and getting to know
their work and sort of building with them. It's going
to serve you so well, both as like a person
who has a career in writing, but also like in
the practical business of writing. So absolutely trust your gut
and know that you're amazing, and also know that you
know other people are going to help you get better.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
I like that. That's terrific advice.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Okay, I want to hear about how both of you
got started writing, So I'll change it up and go
back to you this time first. Back to you first.
That doesn't really followed, but you know what I mean, Sam,
how'd you get started?
Speaker 5 (17:40):
Writing.
Speaker 6 (17:41):
Yes, So my origin story as a writer is telling lies,
telling lies so people would like me. I was very
bad at sports in elementary school and didn't have any friends.
But I went to a very secluded, isolated, rural farm
school where no but like very few of my other
my class it's had TVs. Let alone, like watch movies
(18:03):
or so I could tell. I would tell people I
had seen horror movies that I hadn't actually seen, and
people would be like, oh, tell us about them, and
so I would, you know, if I could. I found
that if I stretched it out over many days, like
from recess to recess, they would keep coming back and
bring their friends. And so I would like, I haven't
seen The Shining, but I had this whole weeks long
saga of the movie The Shining, based only on reading
(18:24):
the back of the video box at the video store.
So yeah, telling lies so people would like me is
what I did in second grade and what I'm still
doing now.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
See the reaction of some of those friends of yours
down the road when they actually watched the movie and
they were like, this is not the thing like what
Sam described.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
I wonder, I wonder, but I did I did when
I when my first novel was published, one of somebody
did comment like, oh, I remember you telling stories in
second grade at recess, So I'm glad you're still telling stories.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Do you suppose there were any there are any publishing
writers who are actually good at sports in grade school?
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Who exactly would that be?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yes? Yes, there are really, Yeah, I can't remember who,
but I have run across them, and it's always a
little bit confusing because they are deeply into sports ball
and and it's it's very it's like there's always I
know that it's allowed, I know it's allowed.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But follow sports, but that's not the same thing as
having done it. Well, yeah, anyway, Mary Robinette, how about you?
Speaker 5 (19:36):
What's your origin story?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
So my origin story, I like, I don't remember a
time that I didn't write one of my very early memories.
I know that I'm in kindergarten because because I went
to a different school for kindergarten, and I wrote my
mother a story for Mother's Day about spaceship that was
(20:04):
it looked like a bearded iris, so the tongue came
down and the beard part was like the welcome Matt.
So like, that's one of my really early memories, and
I just I was one of those kids who wanted
to do everything. So I was writing, I was in theater,
I was in art, and then it just kind of continued.
(20:27):
So I think I always been a storyteller, but I
don't remember it. I just don't remember a time I wasn't.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Yeah, I understand that too.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
My mother claims I was telling people I was going
to be a writer when I was seven, which, you know,
in a small town in Oklahoma would have been an
unusual thing. But it's my mom, so we have to
believe her, right, You two, this is an unconventional setup
since you're both very well established, award winning science fiction authors.
(20:56):
Sam has won a Nebula, Mary Robinette has won Hugo
and an Nebula. Okay, that's just showing off really at
that point. Now, the two of you, this is what's
so wild. The two of you are teaming up, except
not exactly because, if I understand it correctly, you both
contributed separate science fiction crime stories. Right, how did this
(21:18):
project come about?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Well, we have the same agent, Seth Fishman, and Saga
has been doing this really interesting thing where they've been
experimenting with the doubles, which isn't that great? And so
they've they're experimenting with them to see how they they're
(21:44):
both yours.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Now, thank you for fairness, I get it.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yes, yes, So they're experimenting with this format as a
way to celebrate their tenth anniversary. And I've done three
versions of this. One is an anthology edited by Ellen Datlow.
One side His Day, the Other's Night. The other is
a single author Stephen grim Jones. Yes, same, but two
(22:16):
different books. And then they were like, well, what happens
if we combined two writers? And and so Seth was
basically like, how do you feel about Space Moar? And
I was like, I love it? What about you, Sam?
How did that happen with you?
Speaker 6 (22:34):
Well? So Joe Montier, editor at Saga, had actually passed
on Red Star Hustle like I had fully. I had
fully grieved its loss and decided and realized it was
never going to be published. And then then Joe reached
out to Seth like maybe a year later, to say,
you know, what is that still available? Because we're doing
this new thing. And you know, I am actually a
(22:56):
huge fan of the doubles format. I have been a
haunter of used bookstores forever, So I had a lot
of old it used to be a very common publishing format. Ace. Yeah,
Ace Publishing used to do these doubles, but Tour revived
the line in like the eighties, I think. So I
had a lot of them, and I really loved the idea,
both because I like getting two books for one and
because they were often two different authors who were going
(23:16):
to give you two different two really different things. And
so I think it's I'm I'm shocked that this isn't
more of a thing in publishing, and I'm really excited
to be that we're sort of like part of this
launch line of reevaluating and revisiting it. Although now it's
a lot of pressure because I really want this to
do well for my selfish reasons and because I want
(23:37):
I want everyone to start doing doubles.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Yeah, that'd be okay, everybody you heard this. Sam's been
waiting at least a year for this. Everybody go out
and buy this book right now, right.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Laura, Yes, absolutely, I would like to see this take
off too. I think that is super fun. I didn't
I don't think I was aware of doubles, but now
that I've seen this I'm like, yes, I want to
get behind this too, so I'd like to hear about
both stories. Sam, can you please tell us about the
Red Star Hustle. I can get the words out.
Speaker 6 (24:08):
Yeah, yeah, So Red Star Hustle is about a very
far future, outer space rent boy who finds himself framed
for murder of one of his famous filmmaker clients, and
so he is on the run trying to clear his
name while a badass bounty hunter is trying to catch
(24:30):
up with him, and she doesn't really think he's guilty,
but she has a big secret she's trying to keep,
and if she fails to bring in her bounty, her mother,
who's the boss of her syndicate, is going to like
start scrutinizing and might expose the sort of lie that
she's been living. And so it's there. It's sort of
like a you know, and morally ambivalent but very dogged
(24:51):
pursuit that she's on. And along the way he falls
in love with a bad boy resistance fighter and Vannigan's ensue.
There's lots of fun. I really wanted to write something
that was just like fun and pulpy and takes place
so far in the future that like none of the
issues while not non, but many of the issues that
plague us as humans here and now have been left
(25:13):
long behind. So this was just me trying to be
like fun, and of course it did end up being
like really sad and heartbreaking, because that's just where I
end up no matter what I do.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, but they're not wrong.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
That's fun heartbreaking, right, it's fun while it's sad and heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I have read this and I am a big fan
of it. And yes, he can make you laugh while
you are sobbing. It's a real skill.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Okay, now I have to read it. And Mary Robinette,
can you tell us about apprehension.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, So Apprehension was me exploring the world of Hitchcock.
I was curious to see whether or not I could
incorporate a lot of the things that Hitchcock was doing
suspense in space. So this is the story of Bonnie Jean.
She's a seventy eight year old grandmother. She's a neurosurgeon.
(26:09):
She's on vacation with her son in law and grandson
after the death of her child, and they are they're
trying to forget, forget that loss. But they've gone back
to a planet where she was a soldier forty years ago,
(26:29):
and more specifically, she was a special Ops soldier. And
then you know, we also have Shenanigans ensuing in hours too,
because she gets accidentally wrapped up in a terrorist organization's
plot when they kidnap her grandson, and so she has
(26:53):
to pull up old training that she hasn't used in
forty years with a body that is not the body
she had.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Then sounds like a great per You said, there is humor.
Is there heartbreak?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Mine mine has too much?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
No, mine has Mine has heartbreak. But uh, but there's
you know, it's not all darkness. I joke that mine
is Hitchcock in space and that Sam's is Raymond Chandler
in space.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Okay, I love that.
Speaker 6 (27:25):
I love that. I am a I am a huge
Oh sorry, I'm a huge Hitchcock fan. And I have
to say that this may Robin that does Hitchcock so well.
In this book. There's so many beats that are like
so like the secret whispered by a dying person, the
like grief, the loss, the loss before that that, the
like shit overshadows the story that happened before the story starts.
(27:46):
You know, it's so good and.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
It sounds amazing.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yes, Sam, I saw in your bio that you have
what I would consider the two essential claims to fame
for a modern successful author. First, your work has been
scraped by AI. Second, your books have been banned in Florida, and.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
By the way, me too.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
You're not alone on both counts. Scared a count on
either one, cared to comment on either one, I should say.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
No, this is just like what a crummy dystopia we
are in right now. It's just like this is the
best you know, Like, no, it's it's it's it's a
lot of people sort of wear being banned as like
a badge of honor, which on some level I do,
But it's also just like like it's just there's jokes
to be made, there's there's humor to be had in it.
But just like you know the fact that like you know,
(28:43):
this sort of like what what what people call I've
seen people call generative AI uh money laundering for intellectual property,
just like the way that like people's creative work is
being strip mined and like the know, being like thrown
into a stew and then like being like like spooned
(29:04):
back out to people for other people's profit is like
just so infuriating. And the fact that like, you know,
the books of mine that have been banned are like,
we're queer young adult stories. And the idea that LGBTQ
young people in parts of this country just like aren't
able to like see themselves and and and read about
themselves and see stories that validate and empower them is
(29:27):
it's so infuriating and so so saddening. So one tries
to find the humor and the you know, badassness in it,
but it's it's just a fundamentally a crummy and dismal dystopia.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I guess, yeah, well, yeah, at least you could yeah
some rationale. When I saw one of my books was
on that list of what like six hundred books that
have been banned in Florida, I thought, why that one
like sixty some books? And I'm like, what's different? I mean,
I don't think it belong in a kindergarten, but why
that would be ben from a real library?
Speaker 5 (30:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Mary Robinette, you've authored the Lady Astronaut series, right, and
you have a podcast called Writing Excuses, So we should
do a podcast swap sometime I'm just saying we should actually, Well,
what I found most interesting you're a professional puppeteer.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
That is correct?
Speaker 5 (30:28):
That's tell us about.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Why I have that happened.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Again. I was one of those kids who wanted to
do everything, and so I had done puppetry as a
hobby in high school, and I was doing it in
college and was in the college production of Little Shop
of Horrors as the giant man eating plant.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
You were a puppet, okay, great, yep, and.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
A professional puppeteer came up at the end of the
show and I was like, wait, wait, people give you
money to do this, and basically changed career choices on
the spot. So I went off and I interned with her.
I interned at the Center for Puppetry Arts in Atlanta
and then went on to work for about twenty years
doing this.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
So yeah, it's it's it's a wild ride. It's a
lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
I remember taking my darling daughter when she was fairly
young too, because she loved musicals, so I took her
to see a Little Shop. She was terrified. I kept saying, yes, puppet,
but it didn't matter.
Speaker 6 (31:27):
No, that is that is yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Sorry, go ahead, you go.
Speaker 6 (31:33):
That is my favorite music. That is my favorite musical.
I love it so much. Mary Robinette, were you the
voice as well as the puppet performance?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
No, No, it's it's not actually possible to do the
voice and the puppet too much, even if you were
physically fit enough to do it miking you and not
have it picking up all of the sounds of the puppet. Amazing,
it makes sense. Yeah, so I've done seven different productions
of it. I am addicted to it. I would do
(32:01):
it again were I given an opportunity, and periodically I
apply like like there's it's always like in the wrong city.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Undergraduate degree is in musical theater performance. I love that.
I love that we have that passion in common. But
back to the writing. We always talk some about process, Sam,
would you be willing to tell us how you approach
a new project. Do you outline, do you just work
(32:33):
from notes? Or do you just sit down and start writing.
Speaker 6 (32:37):
The interesting thing now that this is this is my
fifth published novel, and and I've got like seventy something
short published short stories under my belt. And the interesting
thing at this point in my life as a writer
is that it changes, right, that that my process now
is not was not my process in my twenties or
my thirties, and I'm now in a place where things
(33:00):
are bubbling. It's always been that ideas bubble up, and
I have sort of like things bouncing around in my
brain and notebooks about like what about this superpower or
what if someone what if what if this point changed
in history? Like how would that change history as we
know it? And so, uh, it's always been that the
ideas would bubble up, and now I'm in a place
where they're sort of fighting for attention. It used to
(33:22):
be like there was one clear thing of like this
is the novel you have to write next, And now
it's kind of like, you know, these two things want
to be my next novel, and they're like you know,
I'm sort of like seeing them both in secret and
being like, don't talk to the other one about this.
So so yeah, it's it's weird and and also sometimes
being like no, no, don't get so serious. This is
(33:44):
just for fun. This we're just we're just playing around.
So yeah, my my process now is pretty like me
trying not to write another novel, uh, and to and
to develop to let a project, let let thinks simmer
and sort of explore themselves and figure them out.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
Yeah, I think this might be the first time that
I've ever been told the process is to try not
to write. But hey, it's working for you, so I
guess yay, good job, Mary Robinette. What does your usual
writing day look like?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Much like Sam, it changes a lot because I am
essentially a professional freelancer. Right, there's writing, but I also
have these other income streams. I have puppets, I'm an
audiobook narrator, I teach writing, so there are all of
these different demands. Plus, as you know, once you have
a book out, you have to do all of the publicity,
(34:43):
dog and pony show, which is enjoyable as this conversation is,
but it takes time away. So I don't have a
normal writing schedule. And one of the things that I've
been working on over the last two years, I think,
is trying to work with my brain a little bit more.
(35:06):
I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was fifty, which,
in hindsight, like so much of my life, makes so
much more sense, and so it also explains why a
lot of the writing advice didn't work for me, because
my brain wasn't wired that way. So I've been trying
to work on learning how to trigger a hyper focus
(35:29):
on the thing I actually want to hyper focus on,
and how to come out of it smoothly. So those
are the things that I'm working on. I'm realizing that
I'm much more of a binge writer than a slow
and study. It's like, oh, this explains why Nano Raimo
was where I wrote my novels. So like in hindsight,
(35:50):
there's a lot of stuff that's clearer. So for me,
a lot of times what I do is I will
poke at a story like Sam making notes, sort of coalescing.
The less of the story I understand, the more of
it I have to outline. And the more of it
I understand. The less I have to outline, the more
(36:11):
I can just discover things. And so writing for me
is usually a mix of those two things. I believe
that every writer has to plan and has to discover.
It's just where in the process you do each of
those things varies.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Hey, this has been a blast, But before we wrap
it up, can I ask both of you what should
we expect to see from you next? Or what are
you working on now? As the case may be Sam,
what's next from you?
Speaker 6 (36:40):
Well, I thought it for a while. But the thing
I did, I did just I did just finish a
werewolf novel, which I have always I've always loved werewolves,
but have never found my way into them. But Stephen
Graham Jones, who also wrote one of the Saga doubles,
wrote my favorite werewolf novel, which is Mongrels, which was
(37:01):
the first time that I was like, oh, this you
could use were wolves to tell stories in ways that
I hadn't really been aware of or hadn't thought about before. So,
you know, who knows what will happen with it, but
but that is that is what I ideally that will
be the next thing that that goes out into the
world in some form.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Mary Robinette, how about two?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
My next thing is actually a translation I translate out
of Icelandic and I have translated a novella for Hilder
knutztat Here which is called dead Weight, and that comes
out in twenty twenty six, and it is she's a brilliant,
(37:46):
brilliant writer, and it's it's a psychological horror novella which
is really really chilling and phenomenal. It has it has
one of the single best chapters I've ever read.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Wow, what's the title or do you know yet?
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Since dead Weight?
Speaker 5 (38:11):
Oh? You said that before? All right?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
You know how many times have I asked this question, Laura?
This is the first time somebody said, well, I'm translating
an Icelandic noveldcast. This is We got to get you
guys back sometime. This has really been fascinating. Anyway, thank
you all for being here. I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 6 (38:36):
Been a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Just a few parting words. We've posted all the information
about next year's writer con Cruise, which takes place in April.
This time we're touring the Eastern Caribbean and seeing some
sights I've never seen before. Much less on one of
these cruises. A lot of fun stops relief from Fort Lauderdale.
(39:03):
It's eight days this year, so it's a little bit longer.
Gives us a little bit more time to work with
writers and aspiring writers. We won't schedule sessions when the
boat is in port. I know you want to go
check out the tropical vistas and whatnot, But when we're
at sea and there's a lot of that, we will
have over twenty hours of writing instructions, some of it talk,
(39:27):
some of it small group one on one. We're bringing
Catherine Sans, a fantastic agent who has sold books for
many people, including me. She'll be on board and she
will happily talk to every single participant in the program,
So don't miss out. Plan to be on the cruise
with us March seventh through fifteenth. Visit the writer Con
(39:51):
website for more information. I'll put a link in the
show notes. All right, and if you haven't joined the
writer on Facebook group yet, hey, do it now? Do
it today and join this great community of writers posting
almost every day, stay in the loop in between podcasts,
and know what's happening in the world of books and publishing.
(40:13):
I'll put a link to that in the show notes too,
But really all you need to do is go to
Facebook and search for writer Con.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
All right.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Until next time, people, keep writing, and remember you cannot fail.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
If you refuse to quit. See you next time.
This week on the writer Con podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
It would be to trust your own taste. You have
been honing your taste for decades as a reader for
your entire life, and you can trust that when you're writing.
So don't try to write to someone else's taste. Write
for your own taste.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
hosts are William Bernhard, best selling novelist and author of
the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
winning author of the want LNN Files book series.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, Hey, they're writers. Thanks for joining
us today. It's getting close to Halloween, right, so I
have dressed appropriately in orange and black. I'm wondering what
costumes will be popular this year. I of course thought
about dressing up for Superman, you know, thinking of my
new book, The Superman Warris problem is I would have
(00:59):
to buy like that chest padding that George Reeves used
to wear in the old fifties television series, and plus
there are no Superman candies. I suppose I could hand
out my book to tricker treaters and they would probably
throw it back at me. And ask where the candy is?
So maybe not Laura. How are you costuming this year?
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Hell, I'm not sure. I've made a final decision. What
might I might do Mortitia Adams again. Natural time that
I dressed as Mortitia, no one seemed to know who
I was or what I was doing. But I think
with Wednesday being out and popular on Netflix that I
(01:45):
might actually get recognized this time.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
I tried to do Gomez, but I don't think anyone
was convinced, probably because I don't.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
Have the mustache.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Maybe Jesse, how do you and Michelle celebrate Halloween?
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Well, this year we're actually going to be in Vegas
for hallowe because we're saying that live you know, uh
D and D playing comedians that we like, and so
we're gonna We're gonna do with what's called casual cosplay,
where we dress up with some of the characters from
the story, but not go crazy because you know, that
(02:17):
requires a lot of luggage. So for for any of
our listeners who are also drop out fans, and when
we're dressing up as Barry six, so for the people
get that reference, I love you. I will say There'll
probably be a lot of K pop Demon Hunter Halloween outfits.
Speaker 5 (02:31):
This year, which I'm very excited.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah, so uh something for girls and boys. We've seen
the movie, right, I mean us and everybody else on
the earth. So I'm curious about this Vegas thing. I mean,
these guys are the jokes. Are they playing D and
D while they make jokes?
Speaker 6 (02:48):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Yes, so they're playing up So they're all they're all good.
They're all good D and D players now, And they're
also originally and still are great improvisers. And the campaign
is run by someone who's an incredible storyteller and great improviser,
and so the live shows are very much just like
the wackiest versions of these stories, and they just sort
of go along with it and the crowd gets involved.
(03:09):
And again I was in Maskins Square Garden and a
character rolled a natural twenty and twenty two thousand people
lost their minds.
Speaker 5 (03:18):
It was great.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
I'm very excited to see it again.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
But D and D games go on for a long time,
don't they.
Speaker 1 (03:27):
He's the DM Brandley Mulligan is very good at like
he knows he's done. They've done of live shows now
he knows how to make it like two hours and
fifteen minutes almost exactly, and then you know you can tell,
with like thirty minutes left, he's already beginning to wrap
it up, and they're they're incredibly entertaining a lot of fun.
I have no memory of what actually happened at any
(03:49):
of the ones I've seen now, Like I said, I
have to rewatch them when they release them, but they're
great when I'm there.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
Are you going to see the Spear while you're there?
Speaker 1 (03:57):
I would love to go in it. I don't know
if I'll be able to. I'll definitely see it physically.
Speaker 5 (04:01):
Sit through the Wizard of Oz or if.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
It's still playing. I kind of kind of want to, so.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
I think you should. While you're there, I.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Can just yell people how Oz is terrifying and no
one wants to live there.
Speaker 5 (04:11):
Going back to our conversation.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
Getting back to yeah, I got a writer con live episodes, Yes,
all right, our interview today. We actually have two authors
to talk to today, and that Sam J. Miller and
Mary Robinette Kowal. They are both very well established and
successful science fiction writers. Sam has the Hugo, Mary has
(04:35):
the Nebula, and she also has a hego come to
think of it, but now they're working on something together,
except kind of sort of not totally together. It's a
saga double And if you don't know what that is,
and I certainly didn't beforehand, then hang around and find out,
(04:56):
because they're really fun people to talk to. All right,
we'll get to that really soon, but first the news
(05:19):
news story number one, Amazon agrees to pay huge settlement,
a huge settlement over Amazon Prime cancelation practices. Usually stories
about Amazon involve them getting money one way or another,
but this time Amazon has actually agreed to pay two
(05:40):
and a half billion dollars to settle claims that it
basically fooled millions of people into signing up for Prime
membership and then made it very difficult for customers to
cancel when they went it out. I don't know. I've
never I've got Prime, I never tried to cancel it,
so I don't know, but I know there are other
(06:01):
things that have become so difficult to cancel. It either
takes all day or finally you just give up. In fact,
there's one I won't say that. Yeah, well it's PBS.
I've been trying to cancel that. It's five dollars a month,
and I cannot get rid of it.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
And really want you really want to take away money
from public broadcasting.
Speaker 3 (06:20):
Now, well that is a valid point, but there's a
PBS app coming, so it's duplicative to have both, you know.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
Anyway, the settlement was.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
Announced and it came after a jury's trial in Seattle
had already begun. This all comes from an FTC lawsuit
that was filed back in twenty twenty three, and it's
about this online sweeping it's online shopping service, and this
(06:51):
antitrust case that they've filed that effects about two hundred
million people. But all those people signing up for Prime,
that comes to about forty four billion dollars a year.
But of course Prime members are Amazon's best customers. They
buy more stuff, they buy it more often than people
(07:13):
aren't signed up, and so you'd think maybe Amazon would
treat them better. But I guess Amazon just never wants
to let them go. I don't know. I, like I said,
I haven't done it, Laura. Have you ever tried to
cancel your Prime membership?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
No? I have not. Actually I share your Prime.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Members Oh well you don't have to write. We'll just
be Prime together exactly.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
We Prime together. But I know exactly what you're talking about.
I have had some other things that I have really
struggled to actually cancel. You think you've declined it, you're
signed up for it, you think that you're getting rid
of it, it keeps popping back up. That's really frustrating.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
Yeah, I should make a note jest, because you're right
about what you're saying about PBS. But what I loved
most were the uh like the Ken Burns documentaries and
stuff like that, and that's all on Amazon Prime. Now,
speaking of Amazon, all those probably because of what's happening
at PBS, all those have been ported onto Amazon. What
(08:19):
do you think this business with Amazon Prime cancelation is
all about?
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Just I mean, this is just one of one hundred
companies out there that you know, Amazon didn't need to
do this, right, but they were. And I've had Amazon
Prime since grad school in like two thousand and six
when I launched, So I never got tricked into a prime, right,
I've always just had it. But like, for example, if
(08:44):
there are any of our listeners who like maybe say,
have their prescriptions on Walmart, I can tell you, like
the Walmart Plus thing pops up every time you go
to the app and I accidentally joined it once, right, Like,
we shouldn't be required to have to go through you know,
mazes and answer riddles to cancel subscriptions. If if everything's
(09:04):
gonna be a subscription model, now we need some sort
of law or regulation that gives us a one clip,
one click cancelation thing.
Speaker 5 (09:12):
Yeah, right, that would be a worthwhile law, like, you.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Know, to get really nerdy, I just canceled my Xbox
Game Pass because the price was about to go up
ten dollars a month, and I was honestly surprised that
one it only took one click, and two they didn't
try to offer me a lower price to stay. I
was kind of expecting the lower price to stay and
I did not get it. So now I'm just out
and also the by games like a regular person. But
(09:38):
that was actually easy. It shouldn't be hard.
Speaker 5 (09:40):
It shouldn't.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
This is what like the FTC is supposed to protect
us from.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yes, exactly, Well maybe now they've done us some good. Okay,
news story number two. You've heard a lot of talk
about TikTok and book talk on this podcast before, but
this story is about TikTok and wait for it, Spotify. Yes,
they are together Spotify and TikTok launching a new hub,
(10:07):
which will be called Big on book Talk. And I
mentioned this story well in part because it's likely to
have a big impact on book sales and book authors,
but also to tell the authors listening that, if possible,
this is something you should pursue. If you're on book talk,
you know the drill. You scroll around and you tap,
(10:30):
and suddenly your two b red list is overflowing with
trendy things that look pretty good. It's not at all
unlike Spotify so is to music. So now book talk
has become the Spotify for books, a cultural phenomenon, literally
(10:51):
creating global bestsellers and connecting readers from every possible corner
of the world. But even after you've added a recommendation
to your wish lists, well, then what this is where
the new Spotify hub comes into play. Big on book
Talk they're piloting a co branded hub that turns your
(11:14):
book talk wish list into a to be listened playlist,
and through November, the community of book lovers and the
United States can dive into this dedicated space and press
play and discover all those audio books that you've been
wanting to listen to are now taking over your feeds, right,
(11:36):
It's a one stop spot for all the trending audio
books that are so good you won't even want to
pause them. Jesse, I'll turn to you because I think,
do I remember correctly? You use Spotify sometimes occasion, yes,
for audio books or just music.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
No.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
I mean, here's the thing. As hard as Spotify tries
to get audiobooks, the audio book listener is not using Spotify.
Like they are two different people. Like I wish them luck,
I don't think this is going to be that useful.
Speaker 5 (12:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Well, you know, Spotify has tried before to make a
mark in the world of audio books, and I don't
think it's really caught fire yet, so this is probably
yet another try. Laura, the most important question for us
is how can we get our books on this hub?
Speaker 4 (12:26):
Any thoughts have a book that people go crazy for
on TikTok, Yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
Then somehow spotify it.
Speaker 5 (12:35):
But yeah, the most of.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Course, if people are going crazy for your book on TikTok,
that maybe all you need, you know, But.
Speaker 4 (12:42):
It's probably a pretty good driving factor, yeah, I would imagine.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
So all right, let's turn to Craft Corner this time
around for a Craft Corner segment. We're going to hear
from longtime writer con friend Betsy Kulakowski. She's the author
of the Veritas Veritas Codex series. Try and say that
three times fast, Veritas Codex and the eighth, Yes, eighth
(13:10):
book in her science fiction fantasy Adventures series is on
the horizon. Start reading the other seven so you'll be
ready for the Sultan's Stone. All right, Today she's going
to talk about a subject she knows very well, or
the combination of two subjects, world building and character, and
(13:31):
how the two are related. Take it away, Betsy.
Speaker 1 (13:39):
Craft Corner.
Speaker 7 (13:40):
Hi, this is Betsy Koulikowski, best selling author of the
Veritas Codex paranormal thriller series, and I'm here with today's
Craft Corner. One of the most important things that I
have learned in writing thrillers is that character and world
building really aren't separate. In fact, they feed each other.
A character doesn't exist in a vacuum world. They live
(14:00):
in shapes who they are, how they think, and the
choices they make. For example, when I'm writing doctor Lauren
Grayson in the Veritas Kodec series, it's really her courage
and her curiosity that I think make her a great protagonist,
but those traits mean more because of the dangerous and
mysterious worlds that she steps into. The settings are ancient ruins,
(14:20):
hidden chambers, secret societies, but those aren't just backdrops. They're
there to test her, to tempt her, and to reveal
her strengths and flaws that she didn't even know she had.
When I approach world building, I ask myself what would
challenge my characters most. If the environment is hostile, unfamiliar,
(14:41):
or even morally complex, then every decision matters more. At
the same time, I also want to think about the
character's past and how that shapes how they see the world.
A scientist like Lauren might notice details that others miss,
but she's also a skeptic, so she might even resist
believing what's right there in front of her, and that
interplay is where tension lives. When readers say they love
(15:04):
a character, it's often because the world forced them to
grow in.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
A way that was believable.
Speaker 7 (15:09):
And when they say they feel immersed in the world,
it's usually because the characters are experiencing it through really
authentic emotions. So the takeaway for writers is this, build
your world around the cracks and your character. Then let
that world push them until something breaks or they transform.
When character and world collide, that's where the spark of
(15:31):
story ignites. Keep writing.
Speaker 3 (15:35):
Thank you Betsy Kulakowski. And remember who knew her new book,
The Sultan Stone, the eighth book in the Veritas Codec series.
You could order it today and I think you should.
For now, let's talk to our interview guests, and that's
Sam J. Miller and Mary Robinette Kowal.
Speaker 5 (15:58):
Sam J.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Miller and Mary Robinette Kowal, thank you so much for
being on the podcast.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Thank you so much for inviting us. It's a real honor.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Well, we have a traditional first question on this show,
and so I guess we'll let you both answer one
at a time. Mary Robinette, I'll go to you first.
If you could offer writers one piece of advice, what
would it be? I know you could probably do a million,
but pick.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
It would be to trust your own taste. You have
been honing your taste for decades as a reader for
your entire life, and you can trust that when you're writing.
So don't try to write to someone else's taste. Write
for your own taste.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
Yeah, it sounds like good advice to me. Sam, how
about you? What would you throw out there?
Speaker 6 (16:46):
Yeah, so that is great advice, and mine is sort
of the opposite, but not it feels like it's not.
It's you know, I feel like the thing that was
hardest for me to learn, and that therefore the thing
that I would advise, that I would give to folks
is that community is everything. Like building community, bombing with
other writers, making friends with other writers, understanding that other
writers are not your competition, they're your allies, they're your support.
(17:08):
Reading very widely among your peers and getting to know
their work and sort of building with them. It's going
to serve you so well, both as like a person
who has a career in writing, but also like in
the practical business of writing. So absolutely trust your gut
and know that you're amazing, and also know that you
know other people are going to help you get better.
Speaker 5 (17:27):
I like that. That's terrific advice.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Okay, I want to hear about how both of you
got started writing, So I'll change it up and go
back to you this time first. Back to you first.
That doesn't really followed, but you know what I mean, Sam,
how'd you get started?
Speaker 5 (17:40):
Writing.
Speaker 6 (17:41):
Yes, So my origin story as a writer is telling lies,
telling lies so people would like me. I was very
bad at sports in elementary school and didn't have any friends.
But I went to a very secluded, isolated, rural farm
school where no but like very few of my other
my class it's had TVs. Let alone, like watch movies
(18:03):
or so I could tell. I would tell people I
had seen horror movies that I hadn't actually seen, and
people would be like, oh, tell us about them, and
so I would, you know, if I could. I found
that if I stretched it out over many days, like
from recess to recess, they would keep coming back and
bring their friends. And so I would like, I haven't
seen The Shining, but I had this whole weeks long
saga of the movie The Shining, based only on reading
(18:24):
the back of the video box at the video store.
So yeah, telling lies so people would like me is
what I did in second grade and what I'm still
doing now.
Speaker 4 (18:35):
See the reaction of some of those friends of yours
down the road when they actually watched the movie and
they were like, this is not the thing like what
Sam described.
Speaker 6 (18:46):
I wonder, I wonder, but I did I did when
I when my first novel was published, one of somebody
did comment like, oh, I remember you telling stories in
second grade at recess, So I'm glad you're still telling stories.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Nice.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Do you suppose there were any there are any publishing
writers who are actually good at sports in grade school?
Speaker 5 (19:07):
Who exactly would that be?
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Yes? Yes, there are really, Yeah, I can't remember who,
but I have run across them, and it's always a
little bit confusing because they are deeply into sports ball
and and it's it's very it's like there's always I
know that it's allowed, I know it's allowed.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
But follow sports, but that's not the same thing as
having done it. Well, yeah, anyway, Mary Robinette, how about you?
Speaker 5 (19:36):
What's your origin story?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
So my origin story, I like, I don't remember a
time that I didn't write one of my very early memories.
I know that I'm in kindergarten because because I went
to a different school for kindergarten, and I wrote my
mother a story for Mother's Day about spaceship that was
(20:04):
it looked like a bearded iris, so the tongue came
down and the beard part was like the welcome Matt.
So like, that's one of my really early memories, and
I just I was one of those kids who wanted
to do everything. So I was writing, I was in theater,
I was in art, and then it just kind of continued.
(20:27):
So I think I always been a storyteller, but I
don't remember it. I just don't remember a time I wasn't.
Speaker 5 (20:33):
Yeah, I understand that too.
Speaker 3 (20:35):
My mother claims I was telling people I was going
to be a writer when I was seven, which, you know,
in a small town in Oklahoma would have been an
unusual thing. But it's my mom, so we have to
believe her, right, You two, this is an unconventional setup
since you're both very well established, award winning science fiction authors.
(20:56):
Sam has won a Nebula, Mary Robinette has won Hugo
and an Nebula. Okay, that's just showing off really at
that point. Now, the two of you, this is what's
so wild. The two of you are teaming up, except
not exactly because, if I understand it correctly, you both
contributed separate science fiction crime stories. Right, how did this
(21:18):
project come about?
Speaker 2 (21:22):
Well, we have the same agent, Seth Fishman, and Saga
has been doing this really interesting thing where they've been
experimenting with the doubles, which isn't that great? And so
they've they're experimenting with them to see how they they're
(21:44):
both yours.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Now, thank you for fairness, I get it.
Speaker 2 (21:52):
Yes, yes, So they're experimenting with this format as a
way to celebrate their tenth anniversary. And I've done three
versions of this. One is an anthology edited by Ellen Datlow.
One side His Day, the Other's Night. The other is
a single author Stephen grim Jones. Yes, same, but two
(22:16):
different books. And then they were like, well, what happens
if we combined two writers? And and so Seth was
basically like, how do you feel about Space Moar? And
I was like, I love it? What about you, Sam?
How did that happen with you?
Speaker 6 (22:34):
Well? So Joe Montier, editor at Saga, had actually passed
on Red Star Hustle like I had fully. I had
fully grieved its loss and decided and realized it was
never going to be published. And then then Joe reached
out to Seth like maybe a year later, to say,
you know, what is that still available? Because we're doing
this new thing. And you know, I am actually a
(22:56):
huge fan of the doubles format. I have been a
haunter of used bookstores forever, So I had a lot
of old it used to be a very common publishing format. Ace. Yeah,
Ace Publishing used to do these doubles, but Tour revived
the line in like the eighties, I think. So I
had a lot of them, and I really loved the idea,
both because I like getting two books for one and
because they were often two different authors who were going
(23:16):
to give you two different two really different things. And
so I think it's I'm I'm shocked that this isn't
more of a thing in publishing, and I'm really excited
to be that we're sort of like part of this
launch line of reevaluating and revisiting it. Although now it's
a lot of pressure because I really want this to
do well for my selfish reasons and because I want
(23:37):
I want everyone to start doing doubles.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
Yeah, that'd be okay, everybody you heard this. Sam's been
waiting at least a year for this. Everybody go out
and buy this book right now, right.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
Laura, Yes, absolutely, I would like to see this take
off too. I think that is super fun. I didn't
I don't think I was aware of doubles, but now
that I've seen this I'm like, yes, I want to
get behind this too, so I'd like to hear about
both stories. Sam, can you please tell us about the
Red Star Hustle. I can get the words out.
Speaker 6 (24:08):
Yeah, yeah, So Red Star Hustle is about a very
far future, outer space rent boy who finds himself framed
for murder of one of his famous filmmaker clients, and
so he is on the run trying to clear his
name while a badass bounty hunter is trying to catch
(24:30):
up with him, and she doesn't really think he's guilty,
but she has a big secret she's trying to keep,
and if she fails to bring in her bounty, her mother,
who's the boss of her syndicate, is going to like
start scrutinizing and might expose the sort of lie that
she's been living. And so it's there. It's sort of
like a you know, and morally ambivalent but very dogged
(24:51):
pursuit that she's on. And along the way he falls
in love with a bad boy resistance fighter and Vannigan's ensue.
There's lots of fun. I really wanted to write something
that was just like fun and pulpy and takes place
so far in the future that like none of the
issues while not non, but many of the issues that
plague us as humans here and now have been left
(25:13):
long behind. So this was just me trying to be
like fun, and of course it did end up being
like really sad and heartbreaking, because that's just where I
end up no matter what I do.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, but they're not wrong.
Speaker 4 (25:26):
That's fun heartbreaking, right, it's fun while it's sad and heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I have read this and I am a big fan
of it. And yes, he can make you laugh while
you are sobbing. It's a real skill.
Speaker 4 (25:41):
Okay, now I have to read it. And Mary Robinette,
can you tell us about apprehension.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, So Apprehension was me exploring the world of Hitchcock.
I was curious to see whether or not I could
incorporate a lot of the things that Hitchcock was doing
suspense in space. So this is the story of Bonnie Jean.
She's a seventy eight year old grandmother. She's a neurosurgeon.
(26:09):
She's on vacation with her son in law and grandson
after the death of her child, and they are they're
trying to forget, forget that loss. But they've gone back
to a planet where she was a soldier forty years ago,
(26:29):
and more specifically, she was a special Ops soldier. And
then you know, we also have Shenanigans ensuing in hours too,
because she gets accidentally wrapped up in a terrorist organization's
plot when they kidnap her grandson, and so she has
(26:53):
to pull up old training that she hasn't used in
forty years with a body that is not the body
she had.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
Then sounds like a great per You said, there is humor.
Is there heartbreak?
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Mine mine has too much?
Speaker 2 (27:08):
No, mine has Mine has heartbreak. But uh, but there's
you know, it's not all darkness. I joke that mine
is Hitchcock in space and that Sam's is Raymond Chandler
in space.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Okay, I love that.
Speaker 6 (27:25):
I love that. I am a I am a huge
Oh sorry, I'm a huge Hitchcock fan. And I have
to say that this may Robin that does Hitchcock so well.
In this book. There's so many beats that are like
so like the secret whispered by a dying person, the
like grief, the loss, the loss before that that, the
like shit overshadows the story that happened before the story starts.
(27:46):
You know, it's so good and.
Speaker 4 (27:50):
It sounds amazing.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
Thanks.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Yes, Sam, I saw in your bio that you have
what I would consider the two essential claims to fame
for a modern successful author. First, your work has been
scraped by AI. Second, your books have been banned in Florida, and.
Speaker 5 (28:12):
By the way, me too.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
You're not alone on both counts. Scared a count on
either one, cared to comment on either one, I should say.
Speaker 6 (28:21):
No, this is just like what a crummy dystopia we
are in right now. It's just like this is the
best you know, Like, no, it's it's it's it's a
lot of people sort of wear being banned as like
a badge of honor, which on some level I do,
But it's also just like like it's just there's jokes
to be made, there's there's humor to be had in it.
But just like you know the fact that like you know,
(28:43):
this sort of like what what what people call I've
seen people call generative AI uh money laundering for intellectual property,
just like the way that like people's creative work is
being strip mined and like the know, being like thrown
into a stew and then like being like like spooned
(29:04):
back out to people for other people's profit is like
just so infuriating. And the fact that like, you know,
the books of mine that have been banned are like,
we're queer young adult stories. And the idea that LGBTQ
young people in parts of this country just like aren't
able to like see themselves and and and read about
themselves and see stories that validate and empower them is
(29:27):
it's so infuriating and so so saddening. So one tries
to find the humor and the you know, badassness in it,
but it's it's just a fundamentally a crummy and dismal dystopia.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
I guess, yeah, well, yeah, at least you could yeah
some rationale. When I saw one of my books was
on that list of what like six hundred books that
have been banned in Florida, I thought, why that one
like sixty some books? And I'm like, what's different? I mean,
I don't think it belong in a kindergarten, but why
that would be ben from a real library?
Speaker 5 (30:04):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (30:05):
Mary Robinette, you've authored the Lady Astronaut series, right, and
you have a podcast called Writing Excuses, So we should
do a podcast swap sometime I'm just saying we should actually, Well,
what I found most interesting you're a professional puppeteer.
Speaker 5 (30:26):
Is that right?
Speaker 2 (30:27):
That is correct?
Speaker 5 (30:28):
That's tell us about.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
Why I have that happened.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
Again. I was one of those kids who wanted to
do everything, and so I had done puppetry as a
hobby in high school, and I was doing it in
college and was in the college production of Little Shop
of Horrors as the giant man eating plant.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
You were a puppet, okay, great, yep, and.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
A professional puppeteer came up at the end of the
show and I was like, wait, wait, people give you
money to do this, and basically changed career choices on
the spot. So I went off and I interned with her.
I interned at the Center for Puppetry Arts in Atlanta
and then went on to work for about twenty years
doing this.
Speaker 5 (31:09):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
So yeah, it's it's it's a wild ride. It's a
lot of fun.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
I remember taking my darling daughter when she was fairly
young too, because she loved musicals, so I took her
to see a Little Shop. She was terrified. I kept saying, yes, puppet,
but it didn't matter.
Speaker 6 (31:27):
No, that is that is yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
Sorry, go ahead, you go.
Speaker 6 (31:33):
That is my favorite music. That is my favorite musical.
I love it so much. Mary Robinette, were you the
voice as well as the puppet performance?
Speaker 2 (31:41):
No, No, it's it's not actually possible to do the
voice and the puppet too much, even if you were
physically fit enough to do it miking you and not
have it picking up all of the sounds of the puppet. Amazing,
it makes sense. Yeah, so I've done seven different productions
of it. I am addicted to it. I would do
(32:01):
it again were I given an opportunity, and periodically I
apply like like there's it's always like in the wrong city.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Undergraduate degree is in musical theater performance. I love that.
I love that we have that passion in common. But
back to the writing. We always talk some about process, Sam,
would you be willing to tell us how you approach
a new project. Do you outline, do you just work
(32:33):
from notes? Or do you just sit down and start writing.
Speaker 6 (32:37):
The interesting thing now that this is this is my
fifth published novel, and and I've got like seventy something
short published short stories under my belt. And the interesting
thing at this point in my life as a writer
is that it changes, right, that that my process now
is not was not my process in my twenties or
my thirties, and I'm now in a place where things
(33:00):
are bubbling. It's always been that ideas bubble up, and
I have sort of like things bouncing around in my
brain and notebooks about like what about this superpower or
what if someone what if what if this point changed
in history? Like how would that change history as we
know it? And so, uh, it's always been that the
ideas would bubble up, and now I'm in a place
where they're sort of fighting for attention. It used to
(33:22):
be like there was one clear thing of like this
is the novel you have to write next, And now
it's kind of like, you know, these two things want
to be my next novel, and they're like you know,
I'm sort of like seeing them both in secret and
being like, don't talk to the other one about this.
So so yeah, it's it's weird and and also sometimes
being like no, no, don't get so serious. This is
(33:44):
just for fun. This we're just we're just playing around.
So yeah, my my process now is pretty like me
trying not to write another novel, uh, and to and
to develop to let a project, let let thinks simmer
and sort of explore themselves and figure them out.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
Yeah, I think this might be the first time that
I've ever been told the process is to try not
to write. But hey, it's working for you, so I
guess yay, good job, Mary Robinette. What does your usual
writing day look like?
Speaker 2 (34:21):
Much like Sam, it changes a lot because I am
essentially a professional freelancer. Right, there's writing, but I also
have these other income streams. I have puppets, I'm an
audiobook narrator, I teach writing, so there are all of
these different demands. Plus, as you know, once you have
a book out, you have to do all of the publicity,
(34:43):
dog and pony show, which is enjoyable as this conversation is,
but it takes time away. So I don't have a
normal writing schedule. And one of the things that I've
been working on over the last two years, I think,
is trying to work with my brain a little bit more.
(35:06):
I was diagnosed with ADHD when I was fifty, which,
in hindsight, like so much of my life, makes so
much more sense, and so it also explains why a
lot of the writing advice didn't work for me, because
my brain wasn't wired that way. So I've been trying
to work on learning how to trigger a hyper focus
(35:29):
on the thing I actually want to hyper focus on,
and how to come out of it smoothly. So those
are the things that I'm working on. I'm realizing that
I'm much more of a binge writer than a slow
and study. It's like, oh, this explains why Nano Raimo
was where I wrote my novels. So like in hindsight,
(35:50):
there's a lot of stuff that's clearer. So for me,
a lot of times what I do is I will
poke at a story like Sam making notes, sort of coalescing.
The less of the story I understand, the more of
it I have to outline. And the more of it
I understand. The less I have to outline, the more
(36:11):
I can just discover things. And so writing for me
is usually a mix of those two things. I believe
that every writer has to plan and has to discover.
It's just where in the process you do each of
those things varies.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
Hey, this has been a blast, But before we wrap
it up, can I ask both of you what should
we expect to see from you next? Or what are
you working on now? As the case may be Sam,
what's next from you?
Speaker 6 (36:40):
Well, I thought it for a while. But the thing
I did, I did just I did just finish a
werewolf novel, which I have always I've always loved werewolves,
but have never found my way into them. But Stephen
Graham Jones, who also wrote one of the Saga doubles,
wrote my favorite werewolf novel, which is Mongrels, which was
(37:01):
the first time that I was like, oh, this you
could use were wolves to tell stories in ways that
I hadn't really been aware of or hadn't thought about before. So,
you know, who knows what will happen with it, but
but that is that is what I ideally that will
be the next thing that that goes out into the
world in some form.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
Mary Robinette, how about two?
Speaker 2 (37:21):
My next thing is actually a translation I translate out
of Icelandic and I have translated a novella for Hilder
knutztat Here which is called dead Weight, and that comes
out in twenty twenty six, and it is she's a brilliant,
(37:46):
brilliant writer, and it's it's a psychological horror novella which
is really really chilling and phenomenal. It has it has
one of the single best chapters I've ever read.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
Wow, what's the title or do you know yet?
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Since dead Weight?
Speaker 5 (38:11):
Oh? You said that before? All right?
Speaker 3 (38:13):
You know how many times have I asked this question, Laura?
This is the first time somebody said, well, I'm translating
an Icelandic noveldcast. This is We got to get you
guys back sometime. This has really been fascinating. Anyway, thank
you all for being here. I appreciate it very much.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 6 (38:36):
Been a pleasure.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
Just a few parting words. We've posted all the information
about next year's writer con Cruise, which takes place in April.
This time we're touring the Eastern Caribbean and seeing some
sights I've never seen before. Much less on one of
these cruises. A lot of fun stops relief from Fort Lauderdale.
(39:03):
It's eight days this year, so it's a little bit longer.
Gives us a little bit more time to work with
writers and aspiring writers. We won't schedule sessions when the
boat is in port. I know you want to go
check out the tropical vistas and whatnot, But when we're
at sea and there's a lot of that, we will
have over twenty hours of writing instructions, some of it talk,
(39:27):
some of it small group one on one. We're bringing
Catherine Sans, a fantastic agent who has sold books for
many people, including me. She'll be on board and she
will happily talk to every single participant in the program,
So don't miss out. Plan to be on the cruise
with us March seventh through fifteenth. Visit the writer Con
(39:51):
website for more information. I'll put a link in the
show notes. All right, and if you haven't joined the
writer on Facebook group yet, hey, do it now? Do
it today and join this great community of writers posting
almost every day, stay in the loop in between podcasts,
and know what's happening in the world of books and publishing.
(40:13):
I'll put a link to that in the show notes too,
But really all you need to do is go to
Facebook and search for writer Con.
Speaker 5 (40:21):
All right.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Until next time, people, keep writing, and remember you cannot fail.
Speaker 5 (40:29):
If you refuse to quit. See you next time.
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