June 10, 2022 • 40 mins
The singer talks all things Judy Garland as he releases his stripped-down tribute to her iconic Carnegie Hall concert, recorded live with a jazz quartet at Hollywood's historic Capitol Studios in front of an audience of one — Renée Zellweger, who also inhabited the legendary performer in the 2019 biopic 'Judy.'
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Studio on iHeart Radio. My name's Jordan Runtag, but enough
about me. My guest today heralded his artistic arrival with
his self titled debut, a gloriously maximalist affair that marked
him as both wildly talented and wildly unclassifiable. His musical
(00:22):
maturity and dramatic flair set him apart, and since then
he's defied expectations with a series of unpredictable but always
intriguing projects, not to mention always rewarding. When he titled
his last album Unfollow the Rules, it seemed less like
a name than a mission statement. He's one of my
musical heroes, and now he's paying tribute to a musical
hero of his own. He famously restaged Judy Garland's iconic
(00:46):
Carnegie Hall show in two thousand and six, complete with
a full band and a full audience. Now, in honor
of what would have been a hundredth birthday, he's releasing
a more stripped down affair backed by a jazz quartet.
He recorded the tracks in Hollywood's A Story Capitol Record
Studios for an added dose of authenticity. He even employed
a microphone she'd once used. The scale down arrangements are
(01:07):
mirrored by the scaled down audience. In this case, it
was just one person. His friend Renee Zellwigger, who portrayed
Garland in the two thousand nineteen film Judy My guest today,
has done an equally stunning job and habiting the larger
than life talent on this new record, Rufus does Judy
at Capital Studios. I'm so happy to welcome Rufus. Wayne, Right,
(01:30):
Judy one of my favorite topics. I know one of
yours as well. Um, you've talked about really first embracing
the Judy's Carnegie Hall album as a way of providing
joy for yourself in the aftermath at nine eleven. Giving
the last two years we've all had, I feel like
we could all use a dose of that Judy Rufus
magic right now. So I feel like the timing is perfect. Yes, yeah, well,
(01:52):
I mean it wasn't actually nine eleven. It was it
was the the invasion of Iraq, which which was after.
I mean because right after nine eleven there was this moment,
brief moment when it seemed like the world was going
to come together and be you know, supportive of of
the United States and try to heal from that, you know, tragedy.
But then all the next thing, you know, we were
(02:13):
invading Iraq, and it was just such a kind of
non sequitur and uh, really traumatic experience that I still
think believe we we you know, suffer the consequences of so. Yes,
at that point, the Judy record became a reminder of
sort of a slim reminder of of of of just
the occasions where you know, the US can be a
(02:34):
fabulous place and create you know, love and and and
and brilliance and and and positivity. And yes, I think
definitely today, in this day and age, especially even maybe
even more than back then, at least domestically, Um, we
are in a you know, a pretty sad predicament and
(02:54):
and and and and we have to once again, you know,
try to resurrect what what what makes this place a
great place, the United States? I mean, just this, the
spirit of this music, I feel like it's so so
necessary and needed right now. And obviously your relationship with
Judy Trance ends the Carnegie whole album. You have a
very deep relationship with the song over the Rainbow, which
(03:15):
you've been singing since you were a child. How did
you first get in touch with with Judy? Yeah, well
it's funny because I had there's a there's a sort
of there's a classic story at this point in my
life where, um, when I first met Laurena Left, uh,
you know, Judy's daughter, I was, I think, and this
is all on film. I believe somewhere I should find
(03:37):
the footage anyways, but I one of the first things
I said to her was, you know, somewhere the Rainbow
was my song. I just sort of brazenly, you know,
expressed that because you know, I I sang it since
I was a little little kid, and you know, just
totally missing the point that you know, it was actually
written for her mother. So so um so yes, I've
(03:59):
always had a very intense relationship to that piece of music,
demandly because my mother taught it to me when I
was very young, and she used and I guess my
you know, rendition was so captivating that that, uh, it
became a kind of weapon that she could use, you know,
at parties and you know it either you know, you know,
get people's attention or to you know, let's say, ended
(04:22):
an evening you know where things have gotten a little
too sloppy, so bring down the kid and I'm singing
somewhere the Rainbow and then I could go to bed
kind of thing. So so it was uh yeah, it
had a whole range of of of of usages. I
love your rendition on this new live album. I the
the acapella opening was just yeah, that's well, that's very
(04:45):
much an homage to my mother, Like it came mcgarriga,
who sadly passed away over ten years ago. So so
me saying because on the original Carnegie Hall album she's
accompanying me solo on the piano and that the orchestra
comes in, so it's it's a nod to at It's
so beautiful. I mean, there's so many incredible moments on
this record. I mean I wanted to ask you to me.
(05:07):
Judy Garland is just one of the most compelling figures
in entertainment. I mean, her talent, her strength, her stories.
I love her movies and her albums. I love the
autobiography tape she made where you just hear her fire.
I just think it's so so captivating. What is it
about Judy that that captivates you? Yeah? Well, I mean
it started early, um, you know with the Wizard of
(05:28):
Oz and all of that. But I will say that
you know, there's a there's a there's a funny little
family connection as well, because you know, my dad loud
and Win right the third he was actually briefly or
for for a couple of years, uh brought up uh
in Um in Beverly Hills because his father, my grandfather,
Loudon Jr. Was he was covering Hollywood for Life magazine
(05:52):
and they they they they were friends with Judy Um
and uh and and and in fact, Judy Garland I
think babysat my dad or something and uh and him
in lies that used to hang out as as when
they were around ten years old. So so so there
is actually a personal connection. Um. And I'm now you know,
quite good friends with with Laurena as well. So it's
(06:13):
been you know, a couple of generations here or three
arguably and um. But but yes, in terms of her
music and her um you know, star status and and
and and the power of her, of her of her legacy.
Yet know that that that hit me young and and
then all through my life, you know, whether it was
you know, my my trials and tribulations with addiction, or
(06:36):
my desire to be like the best thing er possible,
or my you know, just wanting to have a laugh. Um.
You know, Judy Goldan was always there as a as
a big kind of sorts. That's what is always fascinating
about her. I mean to this hope and these bluebirds
and rainbows in the face of these tremendous you know,
personal demons and and just that that strength that she
(06:57):
always displayed. You mentioned story with your father. I love
your song me and Liza. I think it's an attribute
to this. It's a great track, definitely, definitely so this album.
You recorded the album at Capital and you use the
mic she use, which that must have been just so special.
I'm a huge believer in in places and artifacts being
(07:21):
imbued with that energy. What was that like? Well, you know,
on one hand, it was incredible, But I also feel like,
on the other hand, it's quite common in the sense
that you know, I've worked and I've worked in um
amazing studios for years and and and in Hollywood, uh
and Los Angeles, storry, all over the city. UM, and
you know, a really amazing mic is often used, you know,
(07:45):
so so because they don't make them like they used
to do. And there is something very organic about that
whole um world. And and so I'm pretty sure that
a lot I've used a lot of mics that have
been used by a lot of great people. Um. But yes,
take that out and and really focusing on that for
this recording. Was was was a was a wonderful experience. Um.
(08:08):
And I think especially doing it in the room you
know where where she where she recorded herself, you know,
gave it an extra um kind of you know, sparkle
but um. But yeah, but it's it's one of the
perks of of of living in in in l A.
You know, there are problems with this town, but there
there are there are upsides too. I mean that room
(08:28):
in that microphone that was at a concert of yours
once and you describe yourself as the secret child of
Judy Garland and Frank Sinatra. So I feel like being
in that room is perfect right, Yes, Yes, I was,
I was. I was born in that room. Do you
came out I came out of an amplifier, an old
tube amplifier. Yeah. Classic. Did you own any any artifacts
(08:50):
of Judy's Um? Do I own any artifacts of chitties? Uh?
You know, I don't. Um. I I do have a
signed copy of of of her of her you know,
Carnegie Hall record she signed, UM, I don't the one
that I you know, I was very close to Carrie Fisher. Um.
(09:14):
So I have some you know, um some some some
of her stuff, but uh and and some stuff of
her mother's but but nothing of Judy's yet. I'd like
to get what I'd love to get as a compact.
I'm I'm a collector of compacts. I had quite a
few compacts of famous opera singers, uh, like you know,
Jane Caspan, Victoria de Los Angeles, so, you know, for
(09:37):
makeup and stuff. So maybe I'll maybe I'll ask Laurena
if she could you know one day. Wantemplate that as
a as a gift of sorts, or I'll pay get
up something I love. I watched the the Virtual Concert
(10:03):
when this was recorded, and I love that your your
micro audience consists of Renais l Wigger obviously is a
dear friend of yours and brilliantly portrayed Judy. And I
was wondering when she was in the midst of making
that film, did you both talk about you know, but
kind of getting inside Judy at all. I mean, we
we had a we had a couple of interactions, but
(10:26):
but she had already really made the film at that point.
You know, this was when we were she was working
on the album, uh from the movie. But uh, you know,
I yes, we had a couple of conversations of sort
of the act, but it was mostly about the aftermath
of having you know, inhabited her her her spirit and
(10:46):
so so yeah, it was, it was, it was, It
was really um wonderful. But but but in terms of
like when when you know, when she began that process,
you know, I think she was. She's a she's a professional,
she knows that she's doing, doesn't need my help. I think.
Referring to the the original concert you did in in
OH six, you described it as an exorcism of sorts.
(11:08):
I was. I thought that was a really interesting choice
of words. I wanted to ask you more about that. Yeah,
I know, it was very much a kind of um celebration,
but yes, and an exorcism as well. I had sort
of um moved to Hollywood to make my first album,
and and and and brought along my you know, Judy obsession,
uh as well, And and I kind of went on
(11:30):
and on and on and and and then. Uh yeah,
at a certain point when I decided to do the
the Carnegial concert, I I think I was, I was
just ready for another stage in my life, uh where
I could sort of, um, I don't know, just uh
focus on on on on on other kind of legacies,
(11:50):
shall we say. Um and uh and so I I
I and I did. Actually after after that series of concerts, UM,
I feel less kind of you know, um inclined to uh,
you know, to to to buy a Judy Garland record
whenever I would go to a record store, which was
which I used to do all the time. Um. And
It's also interesting is that when I did the tenth
(12:12):
anniversary concerts UM at both Carnegie Hall and also in
Toronto with an orchestra, UM, the minute I started them, UM,
I instantly felt nothing like Judy Garland. I really did
feel much more like my dad, Frank Sinatra. Um and
you know, had this had more of a masculine um
(12:35):
kind of approach, kind of more tougher uh delivery, shall
we say. But but what's nice is it now with
this recording that I did it. But we did at
Capital Studios and and so forth. Um, I think I
feel like she's returned. You know, I feel like there's
there's sort of I'm maybe more channel challenge, channeling her
(12:56):
her studio work and her um and her kind of
how can I say, at her her kind of almost
medical or uh find you know, attention paid to to
the songs. You know, there's a clinical um precision, ability,
precision that she had or with singing that that's that's
captured in her studio work. So so yeah, So it's
(13:19):
so she's back. Oh That's one of the things that
I think is so amazing about these arrangements that are
more stripped down. It doesn't have the thirty six piece orchestra,
but a small jazz combos. I feel like there's there's
more room for the emotion to shine through, and we
can hear kind of every breath of and pause of
yours more And I think that that makes it. It
adds a level of I don't know what the right
(13:41):
word is. Darkness is certainly not the word I want
to use. But there's you can step depth, which which
is uh yeah, I I you know, I think it's
a combination of things. It's both doing it in the studio,
but also the fact that I've now been singing these
songs for almost twenty years. So there they are, you
know very much, and and encrusted in my bones and stuff.
(14:05):
And wish Judy had when she did her Carneie Hall show.
That was always something that um that I feel like
I was, you know, I just I could never you know, match,
But now that I feel like I can make me
match on certain numbers, not all of them by any means,
but on certain ones. You know, those songs I have
made my own some of them. Is it in a
(14:27):
sense because you you've lived some of them in a way,
as suddenly those experiences are are more personal to you. Yeah, well,
I mean they're also you know, you know, there are
love songs, and there are also songs about survival and
songs about you know, sentimental um thoughts and and and
uh so, yes, I think as you get older, you
(14:50):
um yeah, you start to you know, things become more
precious and more valuable and and more fleeting and and
uh and and so therefore or a little bit more
you know sad. So so so it's just to the songs,
I could sort of imbue the song with that and
That's the thing that always blows me ways that all
I've I've reached to put on your your live album
(15:12):
or Horror original live one as well, over the years.
And you know, I'll put it on when I want to,
you know, hear, when I feel a little nostalgic and
I want to hear you know, almost like being in
love or something and feel a little up, and I'll
put it on. And I'm always blown away by the
power of it and just struck by the path it's.
Is that just the depth of it is. It's so
you know, you you expect some you know, some some levity,
(15:35):
but I'm always it's always becomes a something that you
can't put on in the background. Let me put it back,
something that demands your attention. Yes, well, that's that's interesting
to bring that up, because I think, on one hand
that has been my greatest asset and also my greatest attraction.
Why is that, well, in the sense I mean like
the music that I've I've created, whether it's my Judy
(15:56):
Garland work or my other albums for that matter, Um,
you know, yes, you cannot put them in the background,
and and they demand a certain amount of attention, and
that that works great. You know if you're into music
and you want to kind of go on that journey.
But if you just want to sit around and have
a cup of coffee or be watch a commercial and
focus on you know, the car, uh, then uh, then
(16:20):
my music is it can be problematic because because because
it does demand all everyone's attention so so um so yeah,
it's it's something that I've always tried to juggle, you know.
And uh, you know, let's just say that we don't
live in necessarily the most um kind of thoughtful period
of time and and uh yeah, so it's it's a struggle.
(16:45):
But but on the other hand, I think for those
who who do appreciate that and who are willing to
um go on the journey with me, you know, they're there,
they become very loyal and and uh and and and
they keep coming back. So it's that's how that's how
it works for me. I feel like I owe you
a huge thanks as a as a music fan, I
(17:06):
was always aware of this concert and in its place
in pop culture history, but it really wasn't until Your
Rendition in two thousand and six and the album came
out and the following year that I delved into this
catalog and absorbed these songs, and I was wondering how
much of that was a motivating factor for you to
kind of pass these songs along to people that you
know might not know him. You know, that's a whole
(17:26):
uh subject on its own. Um. The you know the
fact that that that that period in American songwriting is
arguably the you know, kind of the golden era of
of American music. Um. Whether it's you know, the the
arrangements or the lyrics or the melodies. You know that
(17:47):
it seemed like everything was working at full speed at
that time. UM and uh so so yeah, I I
I very much consider it kind of a legacy that
that that as an as an American and I'm both
the Canadian and American, but but on my American side,
you know, I it's important to m celebrate and try
(18:09):
to match, you know, uh, whether it's with your singing
or your or your songwriting, um, for so that we
can continue this um you know this uh excellence um
and uh and so forth. Do you feel in any
way that you've come to understand Judy any better having
gotten insider for these songs and these performances. Uh? Well,
(18:35):
I mean, I I do feel that there's a through
this performances and the songs. I mean I I do
under I am constantly and this hasn't really changed over
the years. You know. Amazed by her technical ability in
the sense not so much innurse singing. I mean she's, yes,
(18:56):
she's an incredible singer, and she cuts the corners and
and that's fantastic, but justn't know her whole presentation, you know,
how how how how she really knew how to move
on stage, you know, how she where where her gaze
was focused her and because she was an incredible dancer,
you know. Um, and so just that whole kind of
training thing which which which in my in our day
(19:19):
and age, is so lacking you know, uh in terms
of the entertainers today. Um, though some could do it,
you know when you you know, justin Bieber, you know, uh,
Lady Gaga, you know, they they you know, they worked
really hard on the full package. So so that's so
it's not dead or anything, but but hers is so
(19:39):
effortless and so kind of I don't know, elegant, and
uh so there's that, but but in terms of actually
talking to people who knew her um and worked with her. Um,
I am. I am always fascinated by how I think
her personality was very different from from that which the
public expected, you know it was I think she was
(20:01):
I think she was a lot sort of dirtier in
the sense like she was she was kind of she
had a real kind of uh, how can I say,
this wicked streak in her that was hilarious but also
pretty you know, uh, scary if you were you know,
(20:22):
in the line of fire and uh and there was
this kind of you know, punk rock thing about her
that um that is always you know, I don't know,
pretty pretty, fascinating and uh and and makes me of
course appreciate her more. Oh yeah, And I don't know,
I don't she was not a good girl. I mean,
what's those interviews with her? You know, I think it's
(20:44):
Steve Allen that she's all She gives these great interviews,
but she tells these stories and they're there. She's rowdy
on network TV in the early sixties. It's incredible she is.
And I think that that's just the tip of the iceberg.
So interesting, so multifaceted. And I do want to say,
as somebody who's senior, perform a number of times for
twenty years. Oh my god, yeah, twenty years. Um. I
(21:08):
truly believe as a fan you have you possessed that effortlessness.
I don't know how you you do what you do,
you have this ability to I saw you at Lupo's
Heartbreak Hotel and Rhode Island in two thousand three. I believe,
and it felt like you were saying I remember I
was there with a dear friend of mine and we
were driving home after he said, Oh my god, it
felt like he was singing to us. And I feel
(21:30):
like that's something that that Judy and all the greats
have where you just connect with everybody in the audience
and I um, so well, thank you. Um. This Judy
uh concert was the finale of your I have to pause.
Rufus Well, Rufus Retro Wayne Right spective. There we Go
was the finale of you Rufus Retro Wayne Right spective
(21:51):
where you revisited all your past albums. Um. We actually
spoke soon after you started doing these shows in early
for your debut and poses. I want to ask you
what is your relationship like to these earlier songs? Now?
Do you recognize that person who wrote them and recorded them?
Or is it like looking at an old school photo. No,
I mean I know that they're all very I do.
(22:13):
I do recognize that that person. I mean I tend
to subscribe to a more kind of Hindu type explanation
of existence. I'm not I'm not Hindu, but but there's
they they for instance, and I'm really you know, butchering
this whole concept. Um. But you know, essentially they believe that,
(22:34):
you know, a person is made up of six or
seven people, and uh, and that you know, and I
felt over the years that these very much like a tree, um,
you know, I developed these branches of my personality and
and and at this point, you know, I'm kind of
high up and and uh and I can look down
and and really, you know, still feel and see you know,
(22:55):
these other characters that have that have that have that
I that I've in habitant and created and and that
are still you know, within me. So it's it's, uh, yeah,
I think the minute you start to say, oh, I'm
no longer that person, that's you know the beginning of
the end, that's when that person decides to you know,
hijack the situation. So so so, yes, I'm very respectful
(23:19):
of my past of my past incarnations. You recently released
a incredibly fascinating x called an audio memoir on Audible
(23:41):
called road Trip Elegies Montreal to New York. One of
the most powerful moments for me was a conversation you
had with you with your aunt Anna where she told you,
I'm paraphrasing to embrace your family's fantastic legacy, which to
me it was just like the opening of an Arthurian legend. Yeah,
you know, it's just so I've seen those as and
clips of you performing, you know, HMS pianoforre at school
(24:03):
as a team. Was music something that was always something
of sort of like a given for you? Or was
there a turning point? No? No, music was always front
and center. Um. And that that's really mostly due to
my mother, Kate, who you know, now that she's passed.
I I really you know, I can quantify the the
(24:24):
loss um and um because you know, she was someone
who always needed to play the piano, always needed to,
you know, teach a song to someone, always needed to
hear what someone's voices was like if they were visiting,
you know, like music was just always streaming through her
through her veins. And uh. And now that she's she's
(24:44):
she's gone. It's the world is is very different, you know,
it's I mean I love to sing, my sister loves
to sing, My aunt Anna loves to sing. But we're
not necessarily you know, doing it every night, which when
my when my mother was alive, you know, that was
the case. We still perform a lot, and music is
still very central. But but but Kate was really the engine.
(25:04):
Uh So, Yeah, I loved your song for her beauty, Mark, Yeah,
of yours such a great uh smirk of a tribute.
I love it so much. I mean, I'm hard pressed
to think of an artist who right out of the
gate had developed such a singular voice and style that
(25:26):
was all your own. I mean, it just seemed like
you arrived completely fully formed. What was inspiring you when
you first went into the studio to to record your
your debut, Well, I mean I think I was brought
up and and both by my mother and father actually
uh and family members that to to really appreciate excellence
in all sorts of songwriting, you know, whether it was
(25:48):
standards or classical music or folk music. I mean there
was a real wide variety of material that I grew
up with and appreciate it. And so I just felt
like whatever I was gonna do, it had to map
at that code, you know, and it had to be
something that was really attempting to to to to you know,
(26:09):
I don't know, just last and uh so, so I
just had that that that that drilled into me as
as as a young person, and when I went in
to make my records, you know, that was my one,
my my main uh objective. I mean, it wasn't necessarily
about you know, what the kids were doing at that time,
(26:30):
or who I was hanging out with, or what was
going on in the mainstream. It was just about, like,
let's try and create something that's that's as good as
what I grew up, what I've heard so far and
what I've learned to appreciate. And there was this kind
of tunnel vision that um that once again was was
was was. It was a help and a hindrance because
you know, I was I was certainly recognized, but I
(26:52):
wasn't It wasn't by any means what what was going on,
uh musically at that time. So it was it was
an interesting journey. Here's a a loaded question that I
didn't write down, but it's just popping on my head. Now,
do you consider yourself a romantic? Um? Well, I always
(27:14):
find the word romantic so interesting because you know, it
comes from Rome. Um. You know, I guess it's it's
sort of about you know, it pertains to you know,
like these kind of Germans and uh, you know, nineteenth
century figures who started to you know, become these neo
(27:34):
classic type of uh worshippers and and other things. But
but but Rome itself was very very kind of unforgiving
and you know, unemotional and kind of stoic, you know,
as a culture. So I so I think in a
strange way when I think of romantic I think of
two sides. I think, yes, uh, you know, yeah, I
(27:58):
am emotional. I am you know, I am driven by
my heart's desires. I am you know, swept away. But
I'm also very disciplined and very very kind of um
pragmatic and you know, dictatorial. But I need to be
uh so, So yes, I think in the full sense
of the word, thinking about the both of nineteent century
(28:19):
Romanticism and also Rome the Roman culture. Um I I
can kind of inhabit both. What is your process like
when you are writing? Is do you have a feeling
that you want to express and go to a piano
and kind of play it out of you or do
you hear music in your mind and it's just a
case of getting it down. I mean it's both. I
I set you know, kind of uh, little traps for myself,
(28:42):
you know, whether it's whether it's you know, having to
write a song for musicals or you know, for for
an album coming up. But then but then coupled with that,
I will, I will, I will be pretty awake and
kind of um willing to receive messages from wherever, you know,
(29:03):
and there's often like terms of phrases or little melodies
that kind of strike me and that I know immediately
that I've caught something by the tail and then I
gotta go home and you know, reel it in. So
so it's it's kind of a combination of both of
you know, being very organized about it and also being
completely receptive and willing to you know, go with the flow.
(29:23):
Is there an element of superstition involved at all? Oh? Yeah, no,
totally for me. I mean, I do you know, I
I have tarot cards, I I visit you know, grave sites,
you know, I I do Uh, I have pilgrimages. I
I I I respect you know, birthdays of of of
(29:46):
famous songwriters and stuff. So it's so yeah, I know,
it's all whatever for whatever powers I could muster, I
I I call in. I love that so much. That
was something I loved about road Trip Elegies where you
kind of talked abou out the relationship between geography and
creativity and songwriting, and I thought that was so cool.
How how a place can influence you, you know, so deeply,
(30:09):
and you live in Laurel Canyon, Now that must be
very inspiring. No, it is incredibly inspiring. And I'm actually
working on an album now that I'm finishing up, which
is really more folk based. Um and yeah, I've been
singing some of those you know, classic loyal canon numbers
and and uh yeah, very very much. I'm trying to
(30:30):
bring back this kind of sixties uh optimism that uh
that we are sadly you know not and happening at
the moment. I've been loving some of your your covers
that I saw Harvest recently, and your version of who
Knows Where the Time Goes with Brandy Carlisle is amazing.
(30:50):
So I love your your covers of that era Um,
there's there was an interview you gave recently that was
so interesting where you were talking about the song Poses
and which is something that I had always assumed was autobiographical,
and you're talking about how you wrote it about an
acquaintance or a friend. And it wasn't until years later
(31:11):
that you realize you were sort of describing what was
happening to you. And I wanted to ask, do you
often find yourself learning things about yourself from your own songs? Um? Yes,
I mean, I mean, I will say that, you know,
(31:32):
for anybody who wants to know the truth about me
and and who wants to sort of dive into the
deep end of of my you know existence, it's all
in my songs. I mean it's everything that I write
is very much um bound to you know, a personal um,
either a personal experience or a personal view or a
(31:55):
personal you know, trauma, whatever. And and it's kind of
and I have found over the years now that I
start to look back at the songs that I wrote,
wrote when I was a lot younger, that that that
in fact I was I was being um, very honest
and very kind of UM. I was bearing myself in
(32:18):
this material and Uh. And that is the true kind
of testament of of of who I am and what
I what I believe in. Um, so it's uh, it's
all in there and uh and that is uh you
know I've made that that bargain, you know. Uh So, yeah, definitely.
(32:41):
And yours songs are so personal, which is I think
why so many people connect with them. At what point
do you start thinking about the audience when you're writing
or do you not? Is that? Is that limiting to you? Well?
I like to think what I The only thing that
I like to think about is that if if the
song is to be interpreted by somebody else, or if
it's um, you know, to be approached in a way
(33:03):
that the that the performer doesn't have any kind of
connection to me or know anything about the backstory that
that it does make sense. You know that it has
its own kind of architecture. So I am cognizant of that.
And I also think a lot about you know, uh
you know, am I you know, ripping off someone else?
(33:24):
Or is this too similar to to something I've written before?
You know it it doesn't stand on its own, so
I I do. I am very cognizant and careful about
that kind of stuff. I feel that a lot of
creative people find it hard to to make a differentiation
between their lives and their work, and which for good reason,
(33:46):
because it's such a reflection of yourself and who you are,
and it comes from such a personal place and whatever
you're going through. Other times, when you feel like that,
when you feel like it's tough to distinguish between those
two draw draw line. Um, I mean there, I think
it's I think there are, but it's mostly in life.
I mean in the sense that you know, I work
(34:07):
all the time and I'm writing all the time, and
I kind of live in this kind of cloud like
I live in this cloud, in this cloud like existence. Um.
But then when there are you know, daily or or
maybe maybe more weekly, shall we say, events that occur
where you know, you've got to do your homework with
(34:28):
with your your kid, or you have to clean up
the house, or you have to, um go to the doctor,
you know, whatever, you know, you you do? Um, you
are you are. I am kind of woken up and
and a bit brutally and taken out of this dream
that I'm that I'm mostly inhabits So it's um. But
but but you know, it's it's uh, look, I'm a
(34:51):
very fortunate man. I have I have incredible family and friends,
and and I've done well in my career, so I
can afford, you know, to live a certain way. So
it's so it's it's all good. Uh, but yes, it
can be a bit of a rude awakening when you
have to you know, do you do homework with your
eleven year old and you're like, oh my god, I
(35:12):
might not know this. Oh, Viva has got to have
the best taste in music of any eleven year old.
Oh my good, she has very good tasted music. She does. Actually, yeah,
she loves Dolly Parton, she loves she loves um the
rhythmex you know. She yeah, she has she has a
good ship. And she also knows all the popular stuff
(35:34):
that the kids listened to. So she's yeah, she's very
very curious kid in that sense. Has she taught you
any new any new music names yet or is that
kind of a few years down the road. Uh, She's
tried to. But I'm I'm I'm I'm pretty um, I'm
a bad stupid That sense of what's popular I've always been,
(35:55):
you know, I I it takes me several years to
realize why something is a hit, which is, you know,
sort of not the point of the whole exercise. It's funny.
In the last two years, I feel like, you know,
it's been so uncertain and stressful. I've been finding myself
revisiting music I haven't listened to in decades, stuff I
(36:16):
listened to in high school, just as kind of musical
comfort food. Have you been been doing that kind of
like we're talking about with Judy. I mean, I think
there's some interesting stuff. I mean that now there's I
mean little not I do like little Nazacs. I actually
like the Weekend um, and I do you know that
it's not all terrible. Um. But that being said, I
(36:36):
I don't feel that there's necessarily a kind of we're
in a high point in terms of songwriting. Uh, you know,
it seems more about, you know, the package that's being
offered and sort of the dream that's being um attacked
or or that they're attacking with. And uh so it's
(37:01):
it's not it's not about the actual songs themselves. That
and that's you know, but that but that's my territory.
That's where I'm sort of, you know, staking my my
my claim. Last summer on the heels of your absolutely
phenomenal and Grammy nominated I might add album un Follow
the Rules, you released the track with Amber Sounds called
(37:23):
techno Opera UM, which was a whole new sound for you.
So cool, rufus does E D m uh? Where where
did that come from? Is that something that you want
to explore further? So that was a bit of a
that was a bit of a pandemic pastime because you know,
I worked with with Zen Freeman on that and uh
(37:44):
and um, and he lives down the street. So I
think it was one of these things. I think it
was one of these things where, you know, because there
weren't there wasn't touring going on and and and we were,
you know, homebound, that it was a good idea to
just check out who lived in the neighborhood and who
we could just hang out with, um, you know, safely
(38:04):
and and and and make music with. So so I
think that that really stemmed from that whole situation. I mean,
there's been so many incredible home concerts that you've shared
with fans over the last two years. While we're all
kind of homebound, and obviously you're keeping busy with music.
Are there any other sort of new hobbies that you've
discovered in the last two years. Uh, well, drawing, I've
(38:26):
been doing a lot of illustrating. Yeah, yeah, no. I
I went to art school briefly in Montreal when I
was uh, you know, in my twenties and so so
uh yeah, I've taken that back up and and uh
and it seems to have stuck. Um. I now draw regularly,
and we used some of the artwork in the in
(38:48):
the last album, but you will be seeing more of
it in the future as well. Oh that's so exciting.
Oh my goodness, do you have any how far I know,
probably too early to say, but how far along is
this new album? It's almost we're mixing it right now,
this folk record. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if
I'm allowed to even announce anything, but but it will be.
(39:11):
I think it's going to come out around my birthday,
which is uh and in about a year, so so
there's still time. But it's um or or in an
honor memberthday. I'll be fifty next year, um so so
so yeah, it's around my fifty birthday. We're gonna we're
gonna have a what is it a picking session? Who's
(39:36):
a picking? Oh? My good, it's rufous. I could talk
to you all day. I my my last question before
I let you go, and it's a corny one, but
I'm genuinely curious. If you could have a moment with
Judy and you could say one thing or what would
it be. I I think I would just say thank
you for inspiring me for so long and also for
(39:57):
being this um, you know, endless um source of fascination,
both both fascinating and inspiring. So yeah, I just had
a big thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode
of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio.
For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows,
(40:19):
check out the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite podcast.
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Studio on iHeart Radio. My name's Jordan Runtag, but enough
about me. My guest today heralded his artistic arrival with
his self titled debut, a gloriously maximalist affair that marked
him as both wildly talented and wildly unclassifiable. His musical
(00:22):
maturity and dramatic flair set him apart, and since then
he's defied expectations with a series of unpredictable but always
intriguing projects, not to mention always rewarding. When he titled
his last album Unfollow the Rules, it seemed less like
a name than a mission statement. He's one of my
musical heroes, and now he's paying tribute to a musical
hero of his own. He famously restaged Judy Garland's iconic
(00:46):
Carnegie Hall show in two thousand and six, complete with
a full band and a full audience. Now, in honor
of what would have been a hundredth birthday, he's releasing
a more stripped down affair backed by a jazz quartet.
He recorded the tracks in Hollywood's A Story Capitol Record
Studios for an added dose of authenticity. He even employed
a microphone she'd once used. The scale down arrangements are
(01:07):
mirrored by the scaled down audience. In this case, it
was just one person. His friend Renee Zellwigger, who portrayed
Garland in the two thousand nineteen film Judy My guest today,
has done an equally stunning job and habiting the larger
than life talent on this new record, Rufus does Judy
at Capital Studios. I'm so happy to welcome Rufus. Wayne, Right,
(01:30):
Judy one of my favorite topics. I know one of
yours as well. Um, you've talked about really first embracing
the Judy's Carnegie Hall album as a way of providing
joy for yourself in the aftermath at nine eleven. Giving
the last two years we've all had, I feel like
we could all use a dose of that Judy Rufus
magic right now. So I feel like the timing is perfect. Yes, yeah, well,
(01:52):
I mean it wasn't actually nine eleven. It was it
was the the invasion of Iraq, which which was after.
I mean because right after nine eleven there was this moment,
brief moment when it seemed like the world was going
to come together and be you know, supportive of of
the United States and try to heal from that, you know, tragedy.
But then all the next thing, you know, we were
(02:13):
invading Iraq, and it was just such a kind of
non sequitur and uh, really traumatic experience that I still
think believe we we you know, suffer the consequences of so. Yes,
at that point, the Judy record became a reminder of
sort of a slim reminder of of of of just
the occasions where you know, the US can be a
(02:34):
fabulous place and create you know, love and and and
and brilliance and and and positivity. And yes, I think
definitely today, in this day and age, especially even maybe
even more than back then, at least domestically, Um, we
are in a you know, a pretty sad predicament and
(02:54):
and and and and we have to once again, you know,
try to resurrect what what what makes this place a
great place, the United States? I mean, just this, the
spirit of this music, I feel like it's so so
necessary and needed right now. And obviously your relationship with
Judy Trance ends the Carnegie whole album. You have a
very deep relationship with the song over the Rainbow, which
(03:15):
you've been singing since you were a child. How did
you first get in touch with with Judy? Yeah, well
it's funny because I had there's a there's a sort
of there's a classic story at this point in my
life where, um, when I first met Laurena Left, uh,
you know, Judy's daughter, I was, I think, and this
is all on film. I believe somewhere I should find
(03:37):
the footage anyways, but I one of the first things
I said to her was, you know, somewhere the Rainbow
was my song. I just sort of brazenly, you know,
expressed that because you know, I I sang it since
I was a little little kid, and you know, just
totally missing the point that you know, it was actually
written for her mother. So so um so yes, I've
(03:59):
always had a very intense relationship to that piece of music,
demandly because my mother taught it to me when I
was very young, and she used and I guess my
you know, rendition was so captivating that that, uh, it
became a kind of weapon that she could use, you know,
at parties and you know it either you know, you know,
get people's attention or to you know, let's say, ended
(04:22):
an evening you know where things have gotten a little
too sloppy, so bring down the kid and I'm singing
somewhere the Rainbow and then I could go to bed
kind of thing. So so it was uh yeah, it
had a whole range of of of of usages. I
love your rendition on this new live album. I the
the acapella opening was just yeah, that's well, that's very
(04:45):
much an homage to my mother, Like it came mcgarriga,
who sadly passed away over ten years ago. So so
me saying because on the original Carnegie Hall album she's
accompanying me solo on the piano and that the orchestra
comes in, so it's it's a nod to at It's
so beautiful. I mean, there's so many incredible moments on
this record. I mean I wanted to ask you to me.
(05:07):
Judy Garland is just one of the most compelling figures
in entertainment. I mean, her talent, her strength, her stories.
I love her movies and her albums. I love the
autobiography tape she made where you just hear her fire.
I just think it's so so captivating. What is it
about Judy that that captivates you? Yeah? Well, I mean
it started early, um, you know with the Wizard of
(05:28):
Oz and all of that. But I will say that
you know, there's a there's a there's a funny little
family connection as well, because you know, my dad loud
and Win right the third he was actually briefly or
for for a couple of years, uh brought up uh
in Um in Beverly Hills because his father, my grandfather,
Loudon Jr. Was he was covering Hollywood for Life magazine
(05:52):
and they they they they were friends with Judy Um
and uh and and and in fact, Judy Garland I
think babysat my dad or something and uh and him
in lies that used to hang out as as when
they were around ten years old. So so so there
is actually a personal connection. Um. And I'm now you know,
quite good friends with with Laurena as well. So it's
(06:13):
been you know, a couple of generations here or three
arguably and um. But but yes, in terms of her
music and her um you know, star status and and
and and the power of her, of her of her legacy.
Yet know that that that hit me young and and
then all through my life, you know, whether it was
you know, my my trials and tribulations with addiction, or
(06:36):
my desire to be like the best thing er possible,
or my you know, just wanting to have a laugh. Um.
You know, Judy Goldan was always there as a as
a big kind of sorts. That's what is always fascinating
about her. I mean to this hope and these bluebirds
and rainbows in the face of these tremendous you know,
personal demons and and just that that strength that she
(06:57):
always displayed. You mentioned story with your father. I love
your song me and Liza. I think it's an attribute
to this. It's a great track, definitely, definitely so this album.
You recorded the album at Capital and you use the
mic she use, which that must have been just so special.
I'm a huge believer in in places and artifacts being
(07:21):
imbued with that energy. What was that like? Well, you know,
on one hand, it was incredible, But I also feel like,
on the other hand, it's quite common in the sense
that you know, I've worked and I've worked in um
amazing studios for years and and and in Hollywood, uh
and Los Angeles, storry, all over the city. UM, and
you know, a really amazing mic is often used, you know,
(07:45):
so so because they don't make them like they used
to do. And there is something very organic about that
whole um world. And and so I'm pretty sure that
a lot I've used a lot of mics that have
been used by a lot of great people. Um. But yes,
take that out and and really focusing on that for
this recording. Was was was a was a wonderful experience. Um.
(08:08):
And I think especially doing it in the room you
know where where she where she recorded herself, you know,
gave it an extra um kind of you know, sparkle
but um. But yeah, but it's it's one of the
perks of of of living in in in l A.
You know, there are problems with this town, but there
there are there are upsides too. I mean that room
(08:28):
in that microphone that was at a concert of yours
once and you describe yourself as the secret child of
Judy Garland and Frank Sinatra. So I feel like being
in that room is perfect right, Yes, Yes, I was,
I was. I was born in that room. Do you
came out I came out of an amplifier, an old
tube amplifier. Yeah. Classic. Did you own any any artifacts
(08:50):
of Judy's Um? Do I own any artifacts of chitties? Uh?
You know, I don't. Um. I I do have a
signed copy of of of her of her you know,
Carnegie Hall record she signed, UM, I don't the one
that I you know, I was very close to Carrie Fisher. Um.
(09:14):
So I have some you know, um some some some
of her stuff, but uh and and some stuff of
her mother's but but nothing of Judy's yet. I'd like
to get what I'd love to get as a compact.
I'm I'm a collector of compacts. I had quite a
few compacts of famous opera singers, uh, like you know,
Jane Caspan, Victoria de Los Angeles, so, you know, for
(09:37):
makeup and stuff. So maybe I'll maybe I'll ask Laurena
if she could you know one day. Wantemplate that as
a as a gift of sorts, or I'll pay get
up something I love. I watched the the Virtual Concert
(10:03):
when this was recorded, and I love that your your
micro audience consists of Renais l Wigger obviously is a
dear friend of yours and brilliantly portrayed Judy. And I
was wondering when she was in the midst of making
that film, did you both talk about you know, but
kind of getting inside Judy at all. I mean, we
we had a we had a couple of interactions, but
(10:26):
but she had already really made the film at that point.
You know, this was when we were she was working
on the album, uh from the movie. But uh, you know,
I yes, we had a couple of conversations of sort
of the act, but it was mostly about the aftermath
of having you know, inhabited her her her spirit and
(10:46):
so so yeah, it was, it was, it was, It
was really um wonderful. But but but in terms of
like when when you know, when she began that process,
you know, I think she was. She's a she's a professional,
she knows that she's doing, doesn't need my help. I think.
Referring to the the original concert you did in in
OH six, you described it as an exorcism of sorts.
(11:08):
I was. I thought that was a really interesting choice
of words. I wanted to ask you more about that. Yeah,
I know, it was very much a kind of um celebration,
but yes, and an exorcism as well. I had sort
of um moved to Hollywood to make my first album,
and and and and brought along my you know, Judy obsession,
uh as well, And and I kind of went on
(11:30):
and on and on and and and then. Uh yeah,
at a certain point when I decided to do the
the Carnegial concert, I I think I was, I was
just ready for another stage in my life, uh where
I could sort of, um, I don't know, just uh
focus on on on on on other kind of legacies,
(11:50):
shall we say. Um and uh and so I I
I and I did. Actually after after that series of concerts, UM,
I feel less kind of you know, um inclined to uh,
you know, to to to buy a Judy Garland record
whenever I would go to a record store, which was
which I used to do all the time. Um. And
It's also interesting is that when I did the tenth
(12:12):
anniversary concerts UM at both Carnegie Hall and also in
Toronto with an orchestra, UM, the minute I started them, UM,
I instantly felt nothing like Judy Garland. I really did
feel much more like my dad, Frank Sinatra. Um and
you know, had this had more of a masculine um
(12:35):
kind of approach, kind of more tougher uh delivery, shall
we say. But but what's nice is it now with
this recording that I did it. But we did at
Capital Studios and and so forth. Um, I think I
feel like she's returned. You know, I feel like there's
there's sort of I'm maybe more channel challenge, channeling her
(12:56):
her studio work and her um and her kind of
how can I say, at her her kind of almost
medical or uh find you know, attention paid to to
the songs. You know, there's a clinical um precision, ability,
precision that she had or with singing that that's that's
captured in her studio work. So so yeah, So it's
(13:19):
so she's back. Oh That's one of the things that
I think is so amazing about these arrangements that are
more stripped down. It doesn't have the thirty six piece orchestra,
but a small jazz combos. I feel like there's there's
more room for the emotion to shine through, and we
can hear kind of every breath of and pause of
yours more And I think that that makes it. It
adds a level of I don't know what the right
(13:41):
word is. Darkness is certainly not the word I want
to use. But there's you can step depth, which which
is uh yeah, I I you know, I think it's
a combination of things. It's both doing it in the studio,
but also the fact that I've now been singing these
songs for almost twenty years. So there they are, you
know very much, and and encrusted in my bones and stuff.
(14:05):
And wish Judy had when she did her Carneie Hall show.
That was always something that um that I feel like
I was, you know, I just I could never you know, match,
But now that I feel like I can make me
match on certain numbers, not all of them by any means,
but on certain ones. You know, those songs I have
made my own some of them. Is it in a
(14:27):
sense because you you've lived some of them in a way,
as suddenly those experiences are are more personal to you. Yeah, well,
I mean they're also you know, you know, there are
love songs, and there are also songs about survival and
songs about you know, sentimental um thoughts and and and
uh so, yes, I think as you get older, you
(14:50):
um yeah, you start to you know, things become more
precious and more valuable and and more fleeting and and
uh and and so therefore or a little bit more
you know sad. So so so it's just to the songs,
I could sort of imbue the song with that and
That's the thing that always blows me ways that all
I've I've reached to put on your your live album
(15:12):
or Horror original live one as well, over the years.
And you know, I'll put it on when I want to,
you know, hear, when I feel a little nostalgic and
I want to hear you know, almost like being in
love or something and feel a little up, and I'll
put it on. And I'm always blown away by the
power of it and just struck by the path it's.
Is that just the depth of it is. It's so
you know, you you expect some you know, some some levity,
(15:35):
but I'm always it's always becomes a something that you
can't put on in the background. Let me put it back,
something that demands your attention. Yes, well, that's that's interesting
to bring that up, because I think, on one hand
that has been my greatest asset and also my greatest attraction.
Why is that, well, in the sense I mean like
the music that I've I've created, whether it's my Judy
(15:56):
Garland work or my other albums for that matter, Um,
you know, yes, you cannot put them in the background,
and and they demand a certain amount of attention, and
that that works great. You know if you're into music
and you want to kind of go on that journey.
But if you just want to sit around and have
a cup of coffee or be watch a commercial and
focus on you know, the car, uh, then uh, then
(16:20):
my music is it can be problematic because because because
it does demand all everyone's attention so so um so yeah,
it's it's something that I've always tried to juggle, you know.
And uh, you know, let's just say that we don't
live in necessarily the most um kind of thoughtful period
of time and and uh yeah, so it's it's a struggle.
(16:45):
But but on the other hand, I think for those
who who do appreciate that and who are willing to
um go on the journey with me, you know, they're there,
they become very loyal and and uh and and and
they keep coming back. So it's that's how that's how
it works for me. I feel like I owe you
a huge thanks as a as a music fan, I
(17:06):
was always aware of this concert and in its place
in pop culture history, but it really wasn't until Your
Rendition in two thousand and six and the album came
out and the following year that I delved into this
catalog and absorbed these songs, and I was wondering how
much of that was a motivating factor for you to
kind of pass these songs along to people that you
know might not know him. You know, that's a whole
(17:26):
uh subject on its own. Um. The you know the
fact that that that that period in American songwriting is
arguably the you know, kind of the golden era of
of American music. Um. Whether it's you know, the the
arrangements or the lyrics or the melodies. You know that
(17:47):
it seemed like everything was working at full speed at
that time. UM and uh so so yeah, I I
I very much consider it kind of a legacy that
that that as an as an American and I'm both
the Canadian and American, but but on my American side,
you know, I it's important to m celebrate and try
(18:09):
to match, you know, uh, whether it's with your singing
or your or your songwriting, um, for so that we
can continue this um you know this uh excellence um
and uh and so forth. Do you feel in any
way that you've come to understand Judy any better having
gotten insider for these songs and these performances. Uh? Well,
(18:35):
I mean, I I do feel that there's a through
this performances and the songs. I mean I I do
under I am constantly and this hasn't really changed over
the years. You know. Amazed by her technical ability in
the sense not so much innurse singing. I mean she's, yes,
(18:56):
she's an incredible singer, and she cuts the corners and
and that's fantastic, but justn't know her whole presentation, you know,
how how how how she really knew how to move
on stage, you know, how she where where her gaze
was focused her and because she was an incredible dancer,
you know. Um, and so just that whole kind of
training thing which which which in my in our day
(19:19):
and age, is so lacking you know, uh in terms
of the entertainers today. Um, though some could do it,
you know when you you know, justin Bieber, you know, uh,
Lady Gaga, you know, they they you know, they worked
really hard on the full package. So so that's so
it's not dead or anything, but but hers is so
(19:39):
effortless and so kind of I don't know, elegant, and
uh so there's that, but but in terms of actually
talking to people who knew her um and worked with her. Um,
I am. I am always fascinated by how I think
her personality was very different from from that which the
public expected, you know it was I think she was
(20:01):
I think she was a lot sort of dirtier in
the sense like she was she was kind of she
had a real kind of uh, how can I say,
this wicked streak in her that was hilarious but also
pretty you know, uh, scary if you were you know,
(20:22):
in the line of fire and uh and there was
this kind of you know, punk rock thing about her
that um that is always you know, I don't know,
pretty pretty, fascinating and uh and and makes me of
course appreciate her more. Oh yeah, And I don't know,
I don't she was not a good girl. I mean,
what's those interviews with her? You know, I think it's
(20:44):
Steve Allen that she's all She gives these great interviews,
but she tells these stories and they're there. She's rowdy
on network TV in the early sixties. It's incredible she is.
And I think that that's just the tip of the iceberg.
So interesting, so multifaceted. And I do want to say,
as somebody who's senior, perform a number of times for
twenty years. Oh my god, yeah, twenty years. Um. I
(21:08):
truly believe as a fan you have you possessed that effortlessness.
I don't know how you you do what you do,
you have this ability to I saw you at Lupo's
Heartbreak Hotel and Rhode Island in two thousand three. I believe,
and it felt like you were saying I remember I
was there with a dear friend of mine and we
were driving home after he said, Oh my god, it
felt like he was singing to us. And I feel
(21:30):
like that's something that that Judy and all the greats
have where you just connect with everybody in the audience
and I um, so well, thank you. Um. This Judy
uh concert was the finale of your I have to pause.
Rufus Well, Rufus Retro Wayne Right spective. There we Go
was the finale of you Rufus Retro Wayne Right spective
(21:51):
where you revisited all your past albums. Um. We actually
spoke soon after you started doing these shows in early
for your debut and poses. I want to ask you
what is your relationship like to these earlier songs? Now?
Do you recognize that person who wrote them and recorded them?
Or is it like looking at an old school photo. No,
I mean I know that they're all very I do.
(22:13):
I do recognize that that person. I mean I tend
to subscribe to a more kind of Hindu type explanation
of existence. I'm not I'm not Hindu, but but there's
they they for instance, and I'm really you know, butchering
this whole concept. Um. But you know, essentially they believe that,
(22:34):
you know, a person is made up of six or
seven people, and uh, and that you know, and I
felt over the years that these very much like a tree, um,
you know, I developed these branches of my personality and
and and at this point, you know, I'm kind of
high up and and uh and I can look down
and and really, you know, still feel and see you know,
(22:55):
these other characters that have that have that have that
I that I've in habitant and created and and that
are still you know, within me. So it's it's, uh, yeah,
I think the minute you start to say, oh, I'm
no longer that person, that's you know the beginning of
the end, that's when that person decides to you know,
hijack the situation. So so so, yes, I'm very respectful
(23:19):
of my past of my past incarnations. You recently released
a incredibly fascinating x called an audio memoir on Audible
(23:41):
called road Trip Elegies Montreal to New York. One of
the most powerful moments for me was a conversation you
had with you with your aunt Anna where she told you,
I'm paraphrasing to embrace your family's fantastic legacy, which to
me it was just like the opening of an Arthurian legend. Yeah,
you know, it's just so I've seen those as and
clips of you performing, you know, HMS pianoforre at school
(24:03):
as a team. Was music something that was always something
of sort of like a given for you? Or was
there a turning point? No? No, music was always front
and center. Um. And that that's really mostly due to
my mother, Kate, who you know, now that she's passed.
I I really you know, I can quantify the the
(24:24):
loss um and um because you know, she was someone
who always needed to play the piano, always needed to,
you know, teach a song to someone, always needed to
hear what someone's voices was like if they were visiting,
you know, like music was just always streaming through her
through her veins. And uh. And now that she's she's
(24:44):
she's gone. It's the world is is very different, you know,
it's I mean I love to sing, my sister loves
to sing, My aunt Anna loves to sing. But we're
not necessarily you know, doing it every night, which when
my when my mother was alive, you know, that was
the case. We still perform a lot, and music is
still very central. But but but Kate was really the engine.
(25:04):
Uh So, Yeah, I loved your song for her beauty, Mark, Yeah,
of yours such a great uh smirk of a tribute.
I love it so much. I mean, I'm hard pressed
to think of an artist who right out of the
gate had developed such a singular voice and style that
(25:26):
was all your own. I mean, it just seemed like
you arrived completely fully formed. What was inspiring you when
you first went into the studio to to record your
your debut, Well, I mean I think I was brought
up and and both by my mother and father actually
uh and family members that to to really appreciate excellence
in all sorts of songwriting, you know, whether it was
(25:48):
standards or classical music or folk music. I mean there
was a real wide variety of material that I grew
up with and appreciate it. And so I just felt
like whatever I was gonna do, it had to map
at that code, you know, and it had to be
something that was really attempting to to to to you know,
(26:09):
I don't know, just last and uh so, so I
just had that that that that drilled into me as
as as a young person, and when I went in
to make my records, you know, that was my one,
my my main uh objective. I mean, it wasn't necessarily
about you know, what the kids were doing at that time,
(26:30):
or who I was hanging out with, or what was
going on in the mainstream. It was just about, like,
let's try and create something that's that's as good as
what I grew up, what I've heard so far and
what I've learned to appreciate. And there was this kind
of tunnel vision that um that once again was was
was was. It was a help and a hindrance because
you know, I was I was certainly recognized, but I
(26:52):
wasn't It wasn't by any means what what was going on,
uh musically at that time. So it was it was
an interesting journey. Here's a a loaded question that I
didn't write down, but it's just popping on my head. Now,
do you consider yourself a romantic? Um? Well, I always
(27:14):
find the word romantic so interesting because you know, it
comes from Rome. Um. You know, I guess it's it's
sort of about you know, it pertains to you know,
like these kind of Germans and uh, you know, nineteenth
century figures who started to you know, become these neo
(27:34):
classic type of uh worshippers and and other things. But
but but Rome itself was very very kind of unforgiving
and you know, unemotional and kind of stoic, you know,
as a culture. So I so I think in a
strange way when I think of romantic I think of
two sides. I think, yes, uh, you know, yeah, I
(27:58):
am emotional. I am you know, I am driven by
my heart's desires. I am you know, swept away. But
I'm also very disciplined and very very kind of um
pragmatic and you know, dictatorial. But I need to be
uh so, So yes, I think in the full sense
of the word, thinking about the both of nineteent century
(28:19):
Romanticism and also Rome the Roman culture. Um I I
can kind of inhabit both. What is your process like
when you are writing? Is do you have a feeling
that you want to express and go to a piano
and kind of play it out of you or do
you hear music in your mind and it's just a
case of getting it down. I mean it's both. I
I set you know, kind of uh, little traps for myself,
(28:42):
you know, whether it's whether it's you know, having to
write a song for musicals or you know, for for
an album coming up. But then but then coupled with that,
I will, I will, I will be pretty awake and
kind of um willing to receive messages from wherever, you know,
(29:03):
and there's often like terms of phrases or little melodies
that kind of strike me and that I know immediately
that I've caught something by the tail and then I
gotta go home and you know, reel it in. So
so it's it's kind of a combination of both of
you know, being very organized about it and also being
completely receptive and willing to you know, go with the flow.
(29:23):
Is there an element of superstition involved at all? Oh? Yeah, no,
totally for me. I mean, I do you know, I
I have tarot cards, I I visit you know, grave sites,
you know, I I do Uh, I have pilgrimages. I
I I I respect you know, birthdays of of of
(29:46):
famous songwriters and stuff. So it's so yeah, I know,
it's all whatever for whatever powers I could muster, I
I I call in. I love that so much. That
was something I loved about road Trip Elegies where you
kind of talked abou out the relationship between geography and
creativity and songwriting, and I thought that was so cool.
How how a place can influence you, you know, so deeply,
(30:09):
and you live in Laurel Canyon, Now that must be
very inspiring. No, it is incredibly inspiring. And I'm actually
working on an album now that I'm finishing up, which
is really more folk based. Um and yeah, I've been
singing some of those you know, classic loyal canon numbers
and and uh yeah, very very much. I'm trying to
(30:30):
bring back this kind of sixties uh optimism that uh
that we are sadly you know not and happening at
the moment. I've been loving some of your your covers
that I saw Harvest recently, and your version of who
Knows Where the Time Goes with Brandy Carlisle is amazing.
(30:50):
So I love your your covers of that era Um,
there's there was an interview you gave recently that was
so interesting where you were talking about the song Poses
and which is something that I had always assumed was autobiographical,
and you're talking about how you wrote it about an
acquaintance or a friend. And it wasn't until years later
(31:11):
that you realize you were sort of describing what was
happening to you. And I wanted to ask, do you
often find yourself learning things about yourself from your own songs? Um? Yes,
I mean, I mean, I will say that, you know,
(31:32):
for anybody who wants to know the truth about me
and and who wants to sort of dive into the
deep end of of my you know existence, it's all
in my songs. I mean it's everything that I write
is very much um bound to you know, a personal um,
either a personal experience or a personal view or a
(31:55):
personal you know, trauma, whatever. And and it's kind of
and I have found over the years now that I
start to look back at the songs that I wrote,
wrote when I was a lot younger, that that that
in fact I was I was being um, very honest
and very kind of UM. I was bearing myself in
(32:18):
this material and Uh. And that is the true kind
of testament of of of who I am and what
I what I believe in. Um, so it's uh, it's
all in there and uh and that is uh you
know I've made that that bargain, you know. Uh So, yeah, definitely.
(32:41):
And yours songs are so personal, which is I think
why so many people connect with them. At what point
do you start thinking about the audience when you're writing
or do you not? Is that? Is that limiting to you? Well?
I like to think what I The only thing that
I like to think about is that if if the
song is to be interpreted by somebody else, or if
it's um, you know, to be approached in a way
(33:03):
that the that the performer doesn't have any kind of
connection to me or know anything about the backstory that
that it does make sense. You know that it has
its own kind of architecture. So I am cognizant of that.
And I also think a lot about you know, uh
you know, am I you know, ripping off someone else?
(33:24):
Or is this too similar to to something I've written before?
You know it it doesn't stand on its own, so
I I do. I am very cognizant and careful about
that kind of stuff. I feel that a lot of
creative people find it hard to to make a differentiation
between their lives and their work, and which for good reason,
(33:46):
because it's such a reflection of yourself and who you are,
and it comes from such a personal place and whatever
you're going through. Other times, when you feel like that,
when you feel like it's tough to distinguish between those
two draw draw line. Um, I mean there, I think
it's I think there are, but it's mostly in life.
I mean in the sense that you know, I work
(34:07):
all the time and I'm writing all the time, and
I kind of live in this kind of cloud like
I live in this cloud, in this cloud like existence. Um.
But then when there are you know, daily or or
maybe maybe more weekly, shall we say, events that occur
where you know, you've got to do your homework with
(34:28):
with your your kid, or you have to clean up
the house, or you have to, um go to the doctor,
you know, whatever, you know, you you do? Um, you
are you are. I am kind of woken up and
and a bit brutally and taken out of this dream
that I'm that I'm mostly inhabits So it's um. But
but but you know, it's it's uh, look, I'm a
(34:51):
very fortunate man. I have I have incredible family and friends,
and and I've done well in my career, so I
can afford, you know, to live a certain way. So
it's so it's it's all good. Uh, but yes, it
can be a bit of a rude awakening when you
have to you know, do you do homework with your
eleven year old and you're like, oh my god, I
(35:12):
might not know this. Oh, Viva has got to have
the best taste in music of any eleven year old.
Oh my good, she has very good tasted music. She does. Actually, yeah,
she loves Dolly Parton, she loves she loves um the
rhythmex you know. She yeah, she has she has a
good ship. And she also knows all the popular stuff
(35:34):
that the kids listened to. So she's yeah, she's very
very curious kid in that sense. Has she taught you
any new any new music names yet or is that
kind of a few years down the road. Uh, She's
tried to. But I'm I'm I'm I'm pretty um, I'm
a bad stupid That sense of what's popular I've always been,
(35:55):
you know, I I it takes me several years to
realize why something is a hit, which is, you know,
sort of not the point of the whole exercise. It's funny.
In the last two years, I feel like, you know,
it's been so uncertain and stressful. I've been finding myself
revisiting music I haven't listened to in decades, stuff I
(36:16):
listened to in high school, just as kind of musical
comfort food. Have you been been doing that kind of
like we're talking about with Judy. I mean, I think
there's some interesting stuff. I mean that now there's I
mean little not I do like little Nazacs. I actually
like the Weekend um, and I do you know that
it's not all terrible. Um. But that being said, I
(36:36):
I don't feel that there's necessarily a kind of we're
in a high point in terms of songwriting. Uh, you know,
it seems more about, you know, the package that's being
offered and sort of the dream that's being um attacked
or or that they're attacking with. And uh so it's
(37:01):
it's not it's not about the actual songs themselves. That
and that's you know, but that but that's my territory.
That's where I'm sort of, you know, staking my my
my claim. Last summer on the heels of your absolutely
phenomenal and Grammy nominated I might add album un Follow
the Rules, you released the track with Amber Sounds called
(37:23):
techno Opera UM, which was a whole new sound for you.
So cool, rufus does E D m uh? Where where
did that come from? Is that something that you want
to explore further? So that was a bit of a
that was a bit of a pandemic pastime because you know,
I worked with with Zen Freeman on that and uh
(37:44):
and um, and he lives down the street. So I
think it was one of these things. I think it
was one of these things where, you know, because there
weren't there wasn't touring going on and and and we were,
you know, homebound, that it was a good idea to
just check out who lived in the neighborhood and who
we could just hang out with, um, you know, safely
(38:04):
and and and and make music with. So so I
think that that really stemmed from that whole situation. I mean,
there's been so many incredible home concerts that you've shared
with fans over the last two years. While we're all
kind of homebound, and obviously you're keeping busy with music.
Are there any other sort of new hobbies that you've
discovered in the last two years. Uh, well, drawing, I've
(38:26):
been doing a lot of illustrating. Yeah, yeah, no. I
I went to art school briefly in Montreal when I
was uh, you know, in my twenties and so so
uh yeah, I've taken that back up and and uh
and it seems to have stuck. Um. I now draw regularly,
and we used some of the artwork in the in
(38:48):
the last album, but you will be seeing more of
it in the future as well. Oh that's so exciting.
Oh my goodness, do you have any how far I know,
probably too early to say, but how far along is
this new album? It's almost we're mixing it right now,
this folk record. Yeah, I mean, I'm not sure if
I'm allowed to even announce anything, but but it will be.
(39:11):
I think it's going to come out around my birthday,
which is uh and in about a year, so so
there's still time. But it's um or or in an
honor memberthday. I'll be fifty next year, um so so
so yeah, it's around my fifty birthday. We're gonna we're
gonna have a what is it a picking session? Who's
(39:36):
a picking? Oh? My good, it's rufous. I could talk
to you all day. I my my last question before
I let you go, and it's a corny one, but
I'm genuinely curious. If you could have a moment with
Judy and you could say one thing or what would
it be. I I think I would just say thank
you for inspiring me for so long and also for
(39:57):
being this um, you know, endless um source of fascination,
both both fascinating and inspiring. So yeah, I just had
a big thank you. We hope you enjoyed this episode
of Inside the Studio, a production of I Heart Radio.
For more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows,
(40:19):
check out the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or
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