August 28, 2023 • 42 mins
After 20 years behind bars Bob finally speaks about what he did. Carole, Mindy and Alayne discuss what it means to live in a world without Gail, and so many other women like her.
If you are affected by any of our topics please reach out to NO MORE at https://nomore.org/girlfriends, a domestic violence charity we’ve partnered with.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Novel. Hey listener, here we are at our final episode.
If you're concerned that you will miss our music, don't worry.
I want to let you know that we've released a
Girlfriend's soundtrack, composed by Luisa Gristin and featuring members of
Deep Throat Choir. You can listen now on Spotify and
(00:30):
other streaming services. You can also purchase the album by
going to bandcamp dot com and searching for the Girlfriend's
Podcast Soundtrack. All proceeds go to our charity partners at
No More. Now for the trigger warning. In this episode,
we talk about domestic violence, violence against women, and femicide,
(00:54):
and I'll warn you the ending has had our production
team in tears, so listen in public at your own risk.
But within all that, there's also stories of hope and
recovery and a haven for those suffering. And you guessed it,
Old Pottymouth is here swearing again. Throughout this series. I
(01:19):
told you one story, the story of Bob and Gail.
But the sad fact is Gail's case.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Is one of many.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
According to the UN, in twenty twenty one, on average,
more than five women and girls were killed every hour
by their husband, partner, or relative. Now, perhaps murder feels
a little unrelatable to you. But before Bob was a murderer,
he was an abusive and controlling partner. And those stats
(01:53):
are even more frightening. The UN estimates that across our lifetimes,
one in three women are subjected to physical or sexual violence.
This number hasn't really changed at all in the last decade.
Let's take this podcast as an example. Over one third
(02:16):
of the women we interviewed for this story have alleged
that they've been impacted by gendered violence or emotional abuse.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And that's not.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Including the abuse inflicted by Bob.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
My first husband. He was emotionally abused, not physically, but emotionally,
and I wish I had been stronger.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
You think if you do the right thing, it won't
happen again, because you can't believe somebody who loves you
is really going to hurt you.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
And I said to my father, you know you're an abuser,
and he said, what are you talking about. I never
left a mark on her, And I was like, wait,
are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Is this really happening?
Speaker 6 (02:56):
Because that's like a classic abuser.
Speaker 7 (02:59):
Line was spent over the railing on the side of
a boat in the ocean, nothing around us, and I'm
telling you, if I would have fallen in, it would
have been curtains.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
It's heartbreaking to me to hear all these incredible women
describing the hurt they have suffered. At times, it feels
like there's nothing we can do about it. Even Elaine,
Gail's sister, battled with that feeling.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
There's nothing that I could ever do to change the
fact that Robert Baron barn killed my sister in July
of nineteen eighty five. The question has always been simply,
what am I going to do with that?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So Elaine pivoted from her original passion of poverty and
labor law to family law. That means every day she
helps vulnerable women and children escape bad marriages.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
I do everything in my power control and protect the
lives and the wellbeing of my clients with a motivation
that far exceeds what a professional motivation should be.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
In nineteen ninety six, Elaine started working as a consultant
for the Pace Women's Justice Center in White Plains, Westchester County.
The center offers free legal aid, advice and services to
vulnerable women who want to escape their abusive relationship relationships,
Like Gail and Bob's. But Elaine never told her friends
(04:31):
at the center about her sister because I.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Was in the closet. They didn't know until it was
on ten ten Wins. You know, BOBBYR and Baman diited.
I'm driving home from the indictment and I'm realizing I'd
better call all these people who think they're my best
friends because they're finding out on the news that I
had a sister and she was murdered by her husband.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
When Elaine told her friends at the Women's Justice Center
about Gail, they decide I did to name their building
Gail's House in her honor. At the naming ceremony, Elaine
decorated the tables with Gail's pottery and poems. Friends and
family came. Even people who worked on her case were there.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I'll never forget the naming. We were in a public
room called the tutor room at the law school, and
as we were almost leaving, a tall, beautiful woman ran
in and I happened to be close to the door,
and she said to me, where's Lane Gats And I said,
I'm a Lane Cats And she said, you changed my life.
(05:43):
She said, Gail's story gave me the courage to leave
an abusive husband. I'm an immigrant and he was threatening
me that I would be deported and I would never
see my children again. And you were telling story. Gave
me the courage to leave that relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And that is why we tell these stories. I wish
I could say that now, after all these years, Elaine
(06:30):
and everyone else impacted by this case could rest and
simply focus on helping others in Gail's honor. But now
we've got a new fight on our hands, keeping Bob
behind bars.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I had twenty years of solid peace and it was heavenly.
I never thought about Bob for twenty years, and then
the paroles process started. I will do anything to keep
him in. He is a danger to everybody.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I'm Carol Fisher and from the teens at Novel and iHeartRadio.
You're listening to The girlfriends Our final episode, episode nine.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
We are a Sisterhood.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
After Bob was charged with Gail's murder in two thousand,
he was incarcerated at Otisville Correctional Facility in Orange County.
Over the course of Bob's twenty years sentence, he's under
taken anger management courses, helped other prisoners with their studies
and spoken with the prison rabbi. As far as we know,
(08:09):
he's only had one altercation in prison, which was right
at the start, where he was beaten up by a
prisoner who wanted to steal his wedding ring. In those
twenty years, you'd hope Bob would have had time to think.
Perhaps he would have reached out to Gail's family, but
he didn't. Instead, he continued to insist he was innocent.
(08:32):
He appealed his case, He refused to be interviewed or
to testify at his trial. His silence has been deafening.
Then on December thirtieth, twenty twenty, Bob came up for
parole and for the first time he spoke and Mindy
and I we have the transcripts.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
All right, so Carol, who are you going to be?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So I'm the commissioner.
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Great, I get to be Bob.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Uh huh, yeah, you get to Bob. Okay you ready,
I'm ready, Okay. Tell me what happened on July seventh,
nineteen eighty five. What happened that led to her death? Sir?
Speaker 5 (09:13):
What happened was during that weekend. We spent the whole
weekend together and we had a pleasant weekend. At the time,
I was working about one hundred hours a week, and
at my secondary job, I was working about another twenty
hours a week. On that morning, we had planned on
going to a birthday party for my nephew. My wife
(09:36):
told me she did not want to go to the party,
and we had an argument about it. It was initially
a verbal argument. We were arguing with each other and
things escalated. I wanted her to stop yelling at me,
and I attacked her.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
How did you attack her, sir, I strangled her. After
you strangled her, what happened, sir?
Speaker 5 (10:08):
After that, I was frightened about what happened and concerned
about what had happened. So I left the apartment and
I went for a walk to think about what I
should do about it. I was cowardly about it, and
I did the wrong thing. I was scared about what happened.
(10:33):
I went out and made arrangements to rent an aircraft.
I went back to the apartment and brought her out
to the airport and put her in the airplane.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
How did you manage to carry the body out of
the apartment.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
I put her in a duffel bag.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Did you just remember her body? Sir? No, I did not,
So why didn't you just call the police?
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Because I was frightened, scared and a coward.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
So you rented a plane and you took her to
the airport and you put her on the plane. Is
that correct?
Speaker 6 (11:13):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
And then what I went.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
Flying, I opened the door and then took her body
out of the airplane over the ocean.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And her body was never recovered. Is that correct?
Speaker 6 (11:34):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You fucking believe this.
Speaker 5 (11:43):
I mean, for me, it's like watching the Twin Towers fall.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
You know, it's just eerie.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
And because it's him, I don't really even know if
it's true.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
You know, his language in there just sounds so scripted.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
Yeah, I was a coward. I can't imagine him saying that.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
No.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
But I also want to tell you this, what really
got me the most out of this was that, in
my mind, mindy, I always thought it was just a
tragic accident. The story that I've told myself for years
is that he got into an argument with her, things
escalated and he pushed her like this was purposeful, Like
(12:27):
he fucking strangled her.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Yes, it is sickening, It is sickening to me. But
to then go and take a walk and think about
how to proceed and rent an airplane. That to me
is the most sickening thing.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And then he went back to his normal life the
next day. He just goes back as if everything and he.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Went to the party. Hey he went to the damn party.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah, he didn't report her missing right away. I mean, what,
Oh my god. And I am horrified, beyond like horrified.
I dated him for six months. I slept in the
same bed. I allowed him to take my daughter on
a ski trip with just her. I am I just
(13:14):
couldn't wait to talk to you about this. I am
just so disappointed in myself, and I am so fucking
angry at him. He's a sick fuck and he deserves
to rot in jail for the rest of his freaking life.
Speaker 5 (13:27):
Absolutely, and he should never be allowed out. No, he
is a danger to others. I mean, I don't think
this shows any remorse.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
None.
Speaker 6 (13:40):
I mean, there's no remorse here.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
None, no remorse. I was scared I did the wrong thing,
No shit, asshole. He's just a sick fuck. Bob was
(14:03):
not granted parole after his confession in twenty twenty, so
he appealed it had another hearing and lost again. But
that doesn't mean he won't be successful in the future,
and that terrifies me. But if it scares me, I
can't imagine how Elaine must feel.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
You know what I would like to do at some
point when this is.
Speaker 6 (14:28):
All aired and done.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
What's that I would like.
Speaker 6 (14:31):
To meet her sister.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
It would give me a little closure.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, it would make me feel complete, and I'm wondering
if it would be healing for her too.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
After the break, Mindy and I we meet Elaine for
the first time.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Elaine, Hello, Hi, nice to meet you. Carol and Mindy,
nice to meet you.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
Elaine.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Very nice to meet you. I'm a little nervous. I
have to tell you, what are you nervous about? Well,
I mean we're meeting for the first time, and I'm
hosting this podcast. So that's been a real honor during
that to get to know Gail, and I've gotten to
know you rather well even though we haven't met. So yeah,
(15:44):
I just am in all of you. You're an amazing woman,
a real inspiration. I just want you to know that,
and from the bottom of my heart, I am just
so sorry for your loss.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Oh that's very sweet of you.
Speaker 6 (15:57):
I also feel anxiety.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I feel the anxiety of every time I do something
like this, I have to center myself back in something
that's incredibly traumatic.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, we just Mindy and I just read the transcripts
from the prole hearing.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
We read them together. I actually got them a couple
of days ago from Anna, and it was a very
moving moment for me when I read that. Not that
I didn't believe that he murdered Gail, I didn't want
to imagine it the way he did.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
So obviously that he finally confessed was monumental, although I
was really annoyed when I read the quote unquote confession.
And I don't know if you remember where they read,
you know, this is what happened at the trial on
July seventh, nineteen eighty five. What happened And he started
(16:56):
to go into a story about how hard he works.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yes, yeah, go on.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
I found it very unsatisfying because I wanted what I
would call a full throated confession. And when I read that,
it's like the commissioners say, and did you do this?
And he's saying yes, and we've never gotten what I
would call details. And I remember during the trial when
(17:23):
we never thought we would win, saying to Dan and Steve,
I'll agree to manslaughter. I'll agree to, you know, a
really reduced sentence. I want to know, and as far
as I'm concerned, I still don't know.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
Yeah, you're in such a liminal space and have been
in one for such a long time.
Speaker 6 (17:44):
My heart goes out to you. Thank you.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I mean I used to say, I want to know
it was she in pain. You know, she had spoken
to someone before she died, and the woman said she
sounded weird. And I've always wanted to hear that he
drugged her, she didn't know what was happening, whereas that
he'd have to admit premeditation. But I really do believe
there was premeditation. I believe it's a bunch of bullshit
(18:08):
that they had a fight. As a matter of fact,
there's a neighbor who says they fought every Sunday. This
one was quiet. I thought they were away for the weekend.
I think it's absolute bullshit. Yeah, I've always believed that
this was completely premeditated, and therefore I'd like to believe
that he drugged her and that she had no idea
what was happening to her, right.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Right?
Speaker 4 (18:30):
How long did you date him for?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Only for six months? Thank god? But may I just
say I had a lot in common with your sister
in what way? Well, her love to have fun, her
love for people. You described her as being in love
with love. That's my whole mantra. I've been married three
freaking times, so it could have been me and I.
(18:53):
You know, those six months, I denied my reality and
by the way, he broke up with me and I
was upset. But it was a horrible six months. It
wasn't that much fun. The flying in the plane was fun.
But I was always justifying his behaviors, as any woman
does who's with a domestic and the behaviors, Oh, he
(19:15):
had a temper, so he was showing.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
His anger early on in the relationship.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, but not to the degree that he did I
think with Stephanie, or the degree certainly he did with Gail.
But I knew he had a short fuse. Did you
ever think he would get convicted? I'd love to hear
that part of your experience and thought.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
I did not think that we would have a conviction.
You know, there's a village of women that convicted Bob.
Three of them are here. Yeah, And I remember feeling
that I've got West Coast sisters. I know you guys,
Vegas isn't quite the West Coast, but it's certainly not.
Speaker 6 (19:57):
The East coast.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
All of us, this village of sisters of women, were
working together. I even remember talking to Dan and Steve
when I knew that many of you were flying into
New York to testify. You know, what can I do
to make their lives easier? So I said, how about childcare?
Like they can come with their kids? And I all
(20:20):
arranged childcare for everybody. And I wasn't allowed to meet
you because there was the whole witness tampering possible problem.
But I want both of you to know that I
always felt a tremendous kinship, a tremendous appreciation. I always
knew that there were so many of us, And in fact,
(20:41):
when the jury reached their verdict, they tell the alternate
jurors to leave the jury box because they're no longer needed.
And I'll never forget this beautiful woman of color who
was an alternate jura sitting down next to me and
holding my hand, and it was like she was saying
to me im in the jury pool. Are are with you?
(21:04):
So no, I know that was a long answer to you. No,
I did not think we were going to get him.
And do you think he'll get out? Do I think
he's going to get out? The parole process only allows
incarceration for up to twenty four months. Up to it
is automatically every two years, and it can be less
than every two years.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
By this, Elaine means if a prisoner has served their sentence,
they are entitled to a parole hearing every two years,
but for a variety of reasons, it can happen sooner.
Bob was due to have his next parole hearing a
while ago, but for reasons unknown to us, he keeps
a journeying it. It really could happen any day.
Speaker 6 (21:46):
Now.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
I know this is going to sound like cruel and
inhuman treatment, but for some reason they cannot contact me
and tell me that there's been a decision. So I
know every month when he's supposed to be there, and
I know two weeks later is when the decision can
be and I start to call the Office of Victim
(22:10):
Services on that day every day until I get an answer.
I think that lucky for us the transcripts of his
parole hearings are treasure troves. He's the same sociopathic, psychotic, lying, unremorseful,
(22:32):
and in the second hearing, the appeal hearing, one of
the commissioners of female went after him for the lying
shit he was. He kept saying, you know, I was angry,
and she said no, she defied you about smoking, she
defied you about going to a birthday party. It was
about bullying, violence and control. It wasn't about I'm immature
(22:56):
and I made a mistake. And I don't know if
he's ever getting out. I hope not, because unfortunately, people
like Andy Rosenswig, the chief investigator, has said to me,
you're in danger, really yeah, or he's going after my
kids to hurt me even more. And he's a tough guy.
(23:23):
I mean, I don't think he's saying this to me
because he wants to make me afraid.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So what can we do to help you keep him in?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
You can send letters at every parole board hearing.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
One of the things that he said at the first
parole board hearing that was very aggravating to me was
Gail was an anomaly. So if you experienced or anyone
you know, experienced a violent episode with him. The more
(23:58):
of those stories that are given to the parole board,
the more the parole board says Gail was not the anomaly.
It's not a one time thing.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
In twenty twenty, I stopped practicing critical care medicine and
went back to school to become a hospice and palliative
care physician.
Speaker 6 (24:29):
But what I've.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
Learned in the past years and have thought a lot about.
Speaker 6 (24:35):
Is.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
When you speak to someone who's dying, you ask them
how their body is, and then you ask them how
they are. And we may never find Gail's body, but
what an incredible legacy she has been the impetus for.
(25:02):
And a legacy is how the people who love you
remember you, and you have created an incredible legacy for her.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Thank you, mindy Elaine.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
You've kept her story alive and you've allowed her to
help countless numbers of women. And I get curio as
I say that, thank you, and so to think about
the number of women that you've helped us far and
the number of women that will be helped in the future.
Understanding that domestic violence has absolutely no boundaries.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
The power dynamic has to change, you know, rape is
not a sexual crime. It's a crime of power, which
is exactly the way I think about this horribly sad
story because in our own heads, we've created lives and
stories around this incident and it has had an enormous
(26:12):
power for all of us. But we have to be
united in a common idea that the endpoint is this
must stop, This cannot continue.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
You know, by hosting this podcast, I've really learned to
trust my inner voice, listen to my intuition. You know,
Gail knew that she was making a big mistake, but
Gail never deserve to have a mistake that ended in death,
and that could have been me. I didn't listen to
my intuition. And you know, when Maya Angela says, you know,
(27:11):
and I love that quote, when people show you who
they are, believe them. And Bob showed me who he
was on the first date. And Bob showed Gail who
he was consistently throughout the relationship. Yet she had a
lot of reasons for not believing him, or for thinking
that she could influence it with a better outcome, and
(27:35):
she paid the price for that with her life. And
I'm very very fortunate that I did not. I have
this mantra that I live by, and I think it's
applicable here. For me. I strive to always live my life,
perform my life better today than I performed yesterday. And
(27:55):
hosting this podcast has allowed me the opportunity to.
Speaker 8 (28:01):
I'm gonna cry, get to know Gail, get to know Elaine,
get to know the family and her friends, and I
have a much better understanding.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That violence against women is an epidemic. It's been a problem,
and it continues to be a problem, and that I
just want to be part of that solution. Yeah, Elaine,
(28:44):
Carol the Torso, the torso that was found, do you
have some thoughts about her?
Speaker 4 (28:54):
I remember sitting in the hallway at the courthouse after
the testified Bob's trial. Charlie Hersh and I were sitting
on a bench and I turned to Charlie and I said,
are you absolutely sure that this isn't Gail? And he
(29:17):
said to me, very unfortunately, I am absolutely sure. And
I said to him, and what are you doing to
find out who she is so that another family gets
(29:37):
peace that I didn't get for so many years? And
he said, the best we can with the limited resources
and information that we have. She is someone who died
(29:59):
of violent death, and she was found in May of
nineteen eighty nine, by the way, like two days after
I got married. The anthropological studies determined that she was
probably murdered in early nineteen eighty nine, which was entirely
(30:22):
inconsistent with her being Gail.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
By the way.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
We all knew that at the time, but she was
seemingly Gail's age, and I feel terrible there's a family
out there that does not have closure.
Speaker 9 (30:41):
After the break, we tell you everything we know about
the Torso.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
For the best part of a year, my producer Anna
and her team have been trying to confirm the identity
of the torso that was misidentified as Gail. It never
felt right to reduce her existence to a cliffhanger and
just leave it at that. But even after hours and
hours of research and conversations with the Chief Medical Examiner's
(31:26):
office and local police forces, we have not been able
to confirm anything despite several very very promising leads. The
sad fact is trying to identify her really made it
hit home how many other women's stories are out there
not being told. In their search, Anna and our researcher
(31:47):
Maddie have gone through hundreds, if not thousands, of women's
cases on the Missing Person's database, and that was just
in the state of New York. Sadly, I can't tell
you all of their stories, but I did want to
give them a place in this podcast because they're our
girlfriends too. So if you all tell me when you're ready,
(32:10):
all to us up.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
These are some of the names of the missing and
murdered women from the state of New York, starting from
July seventh, nineteen eighty five, read to you by myself,
Mindy and Elaine.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Helene Okay, Gail Kats, Rosa Westbrook, Aquila Hadric Flossi.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Wilbur, Olinthia Harper.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Helene Rubstein, Tammy McCormick, Candida Hernandez, Rita Fioretti, Cindy Rowl's,
Colleen Brooks, Erica fran Olich, Sassin, Eileen Newberger, Mary Monroe,
(33:05):
Francis Peters, Sandra Runkle.
Speaker 5 (33:10):
Sharon Pulaski, Gail richards Isabelle Rizzo, Francia Penna, Sonia, Archie
Ella Taylor, Elizabeth Mundelli, Shirley Klemngard, and Lubrono Norma Parkinson,
Monique Santiago.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Marilyn Mara Wilson.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Marino, Barbara Lane, Jessica Soto, Harriet Hoyt, Norehen Hagucci.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Brown, Marie Musselia.
Speaker 6 (33:47):
Judith Geron, Ebony Trua.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Denise Griffin, Elise Farmer, Leona Rodriguez, Tanya Blerov, Charmine Smalls,
Christa Nicol Belusko, Tiffany Dixon, Tonny Morgan Show, Mara Rodriguez,
Jong Pack, Lena han Enez, Silveria, Deborah Overbach, Margaret Reilly,
(34:20):
Teresa Schroeder.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Glenda Lee's Valentine.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Evelyn Henriquez, Christine Marky.
Speaker 10 (34:29):
Suzanne Leol, Arlena Abbas, Elizabeth Bump, Judith Conrado, Stacy Pennant,
Sarah Wood, Tracy Collington, Erica Pavoca, Heidi Allen, Katherine Chiang,
Sandra Sali, Elizabeth.
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Busmann, Laura Williams, Jane Kelsey, An Jeannette Petrowski, Lucy Fuentez,
Charlotte Fuller, Robin Murphy, Joan Adler, Wen Wang, Katherine Minningham,
Sarah Hodgeney, Jennifer Boldock, Andrea Robinson, Sonya, Oliver Lori Bova,
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Michelle Isan.
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Jennifer Gordon, Richard.
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Deine Middleton, Camden, Sylvia, Judith Vallos, Cynthia Boehmer, Sylvia Cabden,
leon Anna Savette, Belita Gambrell.
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Kristen Kouka, Francis clark.
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As, Irene Silverman, To, Jonna Lupak, Cynthia Quarrels, Patricia Kendari,
Quenne Halsberg, Stiana Ignatovich, Debbie Ferris.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
Denise Hired, Me, Samea, Helen Young.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
Grace Gotamasso, Indira Monteiro, Francois.
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Morsanria, Harriet Olson.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Lorraine Gruna, Jennifer Cool, Ashley, Carol, Patricia Bartza and Tiamanga Plassa.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Jack Dahlia Avria.
Speaker 11 (36:17):
Jennifer Manchoo, Ivy Mentor, Irena Trosha, Fritchen Walker, Marri Gorlan,
Hailey Wristler, Heather Ballard, Kaylin Martinez.
Speaker 6 (36:31):
Linda Mann, Montoya.
Speaker 12 (36:32):
Stevens, Faith Prescott, Alexandria Bolivoy, Thalia Dorses, Christine Pilhuli, Shannon Mary,
Sunnia Sultana, Marina, Patricia Banks, Casey Peterson, Amanda Ki.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Sharon Ross, Kathleen Wayner.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Mikromini, Amy Goldberg.
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Rose, Marie Gary Leone, Patricia Cagiso, Barn, Dominique, Patra, Catria Kinwanas.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
Pamela, Ma Lane, April Parker.
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Patricia Cabrera, Kaya, Harris, Tuncchia camp Fouris, Samia Lewis, Sophia Lovaina, Kashi, Conda, Holou,
Marrying Kolani, Margerita Rivera, Jamai Wesleyla.
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Surrenda, Angela Vershasia.
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Mercedes Fashion, Aliah Who, Maria.
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Brabazon, Heather Coburn, m Florine Bermudas, Heidi, shinogs Ni Serrando,
(38:38):
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Sonia Manic, Maria Akar.
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Narissa Comes, Veride, Bata, Shakia, Sunto, Jamie and.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Jimenez, Debor Witkowski, Alba, Logos, Cassantra, Romirez, futom up.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
To, Marenievs, Rivera, Skylar, sinfon Jeannette, Charmela, Vimori Bizarro, Nanez.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Prenicia Sarki, Zeta, Casanova, Tina, John Pierre, Manashi, Babanga, Somarbai, Rita, Hollis, Tooting,
Linn Karima, Melendres, Tunisia Write, Maya Krey, Fidelina Rablero Gonzalez Louren, Lcana,
(39:30):
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Kai Gorman, Cheyenne Lightfoot, Amaya Rashid, Tina Feinstein, Nivia Smith,
(39:51):
Diana Menjivar tersois.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Brittany Dogado, Dogado. If you all made it with us
as far thank you, truth is, we could have kept going.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
I'm emotionally drained and I'm in awe of you contextualizing
where my sister stands in the universe.
Speaker 6 (40:36):
Thank You.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
The Girlfriends is produced by Novel for Ourheart Radio. For
more from novel, visit novel Dot Audio. The series is
hosted by me Carol Fisher and produced by Anna Sinfield.
Our assistant producer is Julian Manu, Gera Patten, and our
researcher is Madeline Parr. The editor is Veronica Simmons. Max
(41:34):
O'Brien is our executive producer. Our fact checker is Valeria Rocca.
Production management from Sharie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design,
mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempsen and Nicholas Alexander. Music
supervision by Anna Sinfield. Original music composed by Luisa Gerstein.
(41:57):
Story development by Isaac Fisher. Willard Foxton is creative director
of Development. Special thanks to Shawn Glynn, David Waters, Might
Hilly Rowl, Katrina Norvell, David Wasserman, and Beth Anne Mcaluso.
Speaker 5 (42:16):
Beeah ah yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
We did reach out to Bob and his legal team
to ask if he'd like to comment on the podcast,
but we never heard back. Novel
Novel. Hey listener, here we are at our final episode.
If you're concerned that you will miss our music, don't worry.
I want to let you know that we've released a
Girlfriend's soundtrack, composed by Luisa Gristin and featuring members of
Deep Throat Choir. You can listen now on Spotify and
(00:30):
other streaming services. You can also purchase the album by
going to bandcamp dot com and searching for the Girlfriend's
Podcast Soundtrack. All proceeds go to our charity partners at
No More. Now for the trigger warning. In this episode,
we talk about domestic violence, violence against women, and femicide,
(00:54):
and I'll warn you the ending has had our production
team in tears, so listen in public at your own risk.
But within all that, there's also stories of hope and
recovery and a haven for those suffering. And you guessed it,
Old Pottymouth is here swearing again. Throughout this series. I
(01:19):
told you one story, the story of Bob and Gail.
But the sad fact is Gail's case.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Is one of many.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
According to the UN, in twenty twenty one, on average,
more than five women and girls were killed every hour
by their husband, partner, or relative. Now, perhaps murder feels
a little unrelatable to you. But before Bob was a murderer,
he was an abusive and controlling partner. And those stats
(01:53):
are even more frightening. The UN estimates that across our lifetimes,
one in three women are subjected to physical or sexual violence.
This number hasn't really changed at all in the last decade.
Let's take this podcast as an example. Over one third
(02:16):
of the women we interviewed for this story have alleged
that they've been impacted by gendered violence or emotional abuse.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
And that's not.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Including the abuse inflicted by Bob.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
My first husband. He was emotionally abused, not physically, but emotionally,
and I wish I had been stronger.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
You think if you do the right thing, it won't
happen again, because you can't believe somebody who loves you
is really going to hurt you.
Speaker 5 (02:45):
And I said to my father, you know you're an abuser,
and he said, what are you talking about. I never
left a mark on her, And I was like, wait,
are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (02:55):
Is this really happening?
Speaker 6 (02:56):
Because that's like a classic abuser.
Speaker 7 (02:59):
Line was spent over the railing on the side of
a boat in the ocean, nothing around us, and I'm
telling you, if I would have fallen in, it would
have been curtains.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
It's heartbreaking to me to hear all these incredible women
describing the hurt they have suffered. At times, it feels
like there's nothing we can do about it. Even Elaine,
Gail's sister, battled with that feeling.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
There's nothing that I could ever do to change the
fact that Robert Baron barn killed my sister in July
of nineteen eighty five. The question has always been simply,
what am I going to do with that?
Speaker 1 (03:44):
So Elaine pivoted from her original passion of poverty and
labor law to family law. That means every day she
helps vulnerable women and children escape bad marriages.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
I do everything in my power control and protect the
lives and the wellbeing of my clients with a motivation
that far exceeds what a professional motivation should be.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
In nineteen ninety six, Elaine started working as a consultant
for the Pace Women's Justice Center in White Plains, Westchester County.
The center offers free legal aid, advice and services to
vulnerable women who want to escape their abusive relationship relationships,
Like Gail and Bob's. But Elaine never told her friends
(04:31):
at the center about her sister because I.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
Was in the closet. They didn't know until it was
on ten ten Wins. You know, BOBBYR and Baman diited.
I'm driving home from the indictment and I'm realizing I'd
better call all these people who think they're my best
friends because they're finding out on the news that I
had a sister and she was murdered by her husband.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
When Elaine told her friends at the Women's Justice Center
about Gail, they decide I did to name their building
Gail's House in her honor. At the naming ceremony, Elaine
decorated the tables with Gail's pottery and poems. Friends and
family came. Even people who worked on her case were there.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
I'll never forget the naming. We were in a public
room called the tutor room at the law school, and
as we were almost leaving, a tall, beautiful woman ran
in and I happened to be close to the door,
and she said to me, where's Lane Gats And I said,
I'm a Lane Cats And she said, you changed my life.
(05:43):
She said, Gail's story gave me the courage to leave
an abusive husband. I'm an immigrant and he was threatening
me that I would be deported and I would never
see my children again. And you were telling story. Gave
me the courage to leave that relationship.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
And that is why we tell these stories. I wish
I could say that now, after all these years, Elaine
(06:30):
and everyone else impacted by this case could rest and
simply focus on helping others in Gail's honor. But now
we've got a new fight on our hands, keeping Bob
behind bars.
Speaker 4 (06:45):
I had twenty years of solid peace and it was heavenly.
I never thought about Bob for twenty years, and then
the paroles process started. I will do anything to keep
him in. He is a danger to everybody.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
I'm Carol Fisher and from the teens at Novel and iHeartRadio.
You're listening to The girlfriends Our final episode, episode nine.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
We are a Sisterhood.
Speaker 1 (07:47):
After Bob was charged with Gail's murder in two thousand,
he was incarcerated at Otisville Correctional Facility in Orange County.
Over the course of Bob's twenty years sentence, he's under
taken anger management courses, helped other prisoners with their studies
and spoken with the prison rabbi. As far as we know,
(08:09):
he's only had one altercation in prison, which was right
at the start, where he was beaten up by a
prisoner who wanted to steal his wedding ring. In those
twenty years, you'd hope Bob would have had time to think.
Perhaps he would have reached out to Gail's family, but
he didn't. Instead, he continued to insist he was innocent.
(08:32):
He appealed his case, He refused to be interviewed or
to testify at his trial. His silence has been deafening.
Then on December thirtieth, twenty twenty, Bob came up for
parole and for the first time he spoke and Mindy
and I we have the transcripts.
Speaker 6 (08:53):
All right, so Carol, who are you going to be?
Speaker 1 (08:55):
So I'm the commissioner.
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Great, I get to be Bob.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Uh huh, yeah, you get to Bob. Okay you ready,
I'm ready, Okay. Tell me what happened on July seventh,
nineteen eighty five. What happened that led to her death? Sir?
Speaker 5 (09:13):
What happened was during that weekend. We spent the whole
weekend together and we had a pleasant weekend. At the time,
I was working about one hundred hours a week, and
at my secondary job, I was working about another twenty
hours a week. On that morning, we had planned on
going to a birthday party for my nephew. My wife
(09:36):
told me she did not want to go to the party,
and we had an argument about it. It was initially
a verbal argument. We were arguing with each other and
things escalated. I wanted her to stop yelling at me,
and I attacked her.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
How did you attack her, sir, I strangled her. After
you strangled her, what happened, sir?
Speaker 5 (10:08):
After that, I was frightened about what happened and concerned
about what had happened. So I left the apartment and
I went for a walk to think about what I
should do about it. I was cowardly about it, and
I did the wrong thing. I was scared about what happened.
(10:33):
I went out and made arrangements to rent an aircraft.
I went back to the apartment and brought her out
to the airport and put her in the airplane.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
How did you manage to carry the body out of
the apartment.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
I put her in a duffel bag.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
Did you just remember her body? Sir? No, I did not,
So why didn't you just call the police?
Speaker 5 (11:00):
Because I was frightened, scared and a coward.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
So you rented a plane and you took her to
the airport and you put her on the plane. Is
that correct?
Speaker 6 (11:13):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
And then what I went.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
Flying, I opened the door and then took her body
out of the airplane over the ocean.
Speaker 1 (11:30):
And her body was never recovered. Is that correct?
Speaker 6 (11:34):
Yes, that's correct.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
You fucking believe this.
Speaker 5 (11:43):
I mean, for me, it's like watching the Twin Towers fall.
Speaker 6 (11:46):
You know, it's just eerie.
Speaker 5 (11:49):
And because it's him, I don't really even know if
it's true.
Speaker 1 (11:55):
You know, his language in there just sounds so scripted.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
Yeah, I was a coward. I can't imagine him saying that.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
No.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
But I also want to tell you this, what really
got me the most out of this was that, in
my mind, mindy, I always thought it was just a
tragic accident. The story that I've told myself for years
is that he got into an argument with her, things
escalated and he pushed her like this was purposeful, Like
(12:27):
he fucking strangled her.
Speaker 5 (12:30):
Yes, it is sickening, It is sickening to me. But
to then go and take a walk and think about
how to proceed and rent an airplane. That to me
is the most sickening thing.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
And then he went back to his normal life the
next day. He just goes back as if everything and he.
Speaker 6 (12:50):
Went to the party. Hey he went to the damn party.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah, he didn't report her missing right away. I mean, what,
Oh my god. And I am horrified, beyond like horrified.
I dated him for six months. I slept in the
same bed. I allowed him to take my daughter on
a ski trip with just her. I am I just
(13:14):
couldn't wait to talk to you about this. I am
just so disappointed in myself, and I am so fucking
angry at him. He's a sick fuck and he deserves
to rot in jail for the rest of his freaking life.
Speaker 5 (13:27):
Absolutely, and he should never be allowed out. No, he
is a danger to others. I mean, I don't think
this shows any remorse.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
None.
Speaker 6 (13:40):
I mean, there's no remorse here.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
None, no remorse. I was scared I did the wrong thing,
No shit, asshole. He's just a sick fuck. Bob was
(14:03):
not granted parole after his confession in twenty twenty, so
he appealed it had another hearing and lost again. But
that doesn't mean he won't be successful in the future,
and that terrifies me. But if it scares me, I
can't imagine how Elaine must feel.
Speaker 5 (14:24):
You know what I would like to do at some
point when this is.
Speaker 6 (14:28):
All aired and done.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
What's that I would like.
Speaker 6 (14:31):
To meet her sister.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
Yeah, me too.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
It would give me a little closure.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Yeah, it would make me feel complete, and I'm wondering
if it would be healing for her too.
Speaker 5 (14:43):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
After the break, Mindy and I we meet Elaine for
the first time.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Elaine, Hello, Hi, nice to meet you. Carol and Mindy,
nice to meet you.
Speaker 6 (15:22):
Elaine.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Very nice to meet you. I'm a little nervous. I
have to tell you, what are you nervous about? Well,
I mean we're meeting for the first time, and I'm
hosting this podcast. So that's been a real honor during
that to get to know Gail, and I've gotten to
know you rather well even though we haven't met. So yeah,
(15:44):
I just am in all of you. You're an amazing woman,
a real inspiration. I just want you to know that,
and from the bottom of my heart, I am just
so sorry for your loss.
Speaker 4 (15:55):
Oh that's very sweet of you.
Speaker 6 (15:57):
I also feel anxiety.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I feel the anxiety of every time I do something
like this, I have to center myself back in something
that's incredibly traumatic.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
Yeah, we just Mindy and I just read the transcripts
from the prole hearing.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
We read them together. I actually got them a couple
of days ago from Anna, and it was a very
moving moment for me when I read that. Not that
I didn't believe that he murdered Gail, I didn't want
to imagine it the way he did.
Speaker 4 (16:35):
So obviously that he finally confessed was monumental, although I
was really annoyed when I read the quote unquote confession.
And I don't know if you remember where they read,
you know, this is what happened at the trial on
July seventh, nineteen eighty five. What happened And he started
(16:56):
to go into a story about how hard he works.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yes, yeah, go on.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
I found it very unsatisfying because I wanted what I
would call a full throated confession. And when I read that,
it's like the commissioners say, and did you do this?
And he's saying yes, and we've never gotten what I
would call details. And I remember during the trial when
(17:23):
we never thought we would win, saying to Dan and Steve,
I'll agree to manslaughter. I'll agree to, you know, a
really reduced sentence. I want to know, and as far
as I'm concerned, I still don't know.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
Yeah, you're in such a liminal space and have been
in one for such a long time.
Speaker 6 (17:44):
My heart goes out to you. Thank you.
Speaker 4 (17:47):
I mean I used to say, I want to know
it was she in pain. You know, she had spoken
to someone before she died, and the woman said she
sounded weird. And I've always wanted to hear that he
drugged her, she didn't know what was happening, whereas that
he'd have to admit premeditation. But I really do believe
there was premeditation. I believe it's a bunch of bullshit
(18:08):
that they had a fight. As a matter of fact,
there's a neighbor who says they fought every Sunday. This
one was quiet. I thought they were away for the weekend.
I think it's absolute bullshit. Yeah, I've always believed that
this was completely premeditated, and therefore I'd like to believe
that he drugged her and that she had no idea
what was happening to her, right.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Right?
Speaker 4 (18:30):
How long did you date him for?
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Only for six months? Thank god? But may I just
say I had a lot in common with your sister
in what way? Well, her love to have fun, her
love for people. You described her as being in love
with love. That's my whole mantra. I've been married three
freaking times, so it could have been me and I.
(18:53):
You know, those six months, I denied my reality and
by the way, he broke up with me and I
was upset. But it was a horrible six months. It
wasn't that much fun. The flying in the plane was fun.
But I was always justifying his behaviors, as any woman
does who's with a domestic and the behaviors, Oh, he
(19:15):
had a temper, so he was showing.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
His anger early on in the relationship.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
Yeah, but not to the degree that he did I
think with Stephanie, or the degree certainly he did with Gail.
But I knew he had a short fuse. Did you
ever think he would get convicted? I'd love to hear
that part of your experience and thought.
Speaker 4 (19:39):
I did not think that we would have a conviction.
You know, there's a village of women that convicted Bob.
Three of them are here. Yeah, And I remember feeling
that I've got West Coast sisters. I know you guys,
Vegas isn't quite the West Coast, but it's certainly not.
Speaker 6 (19:57):
The East coast.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
All of us, this village of sisters of women, were
working together. I even remember talking to Dan and Steve
when I knew that many of you were flying into
New York to testify. You know, what can I do
to make their lives easier? So I said, how about childcare?
Like they can come with their kids? And I all
(20:20):
arranged childcare for everybody. And I wasn't allowed to meet
you because there was the whole witness tampering possible problem.
But I want both of you to know that I
always felt a tremendous kinship, a tremendous appreciation. I always
knew that there were so many of us, And in fact,
(20:41):
when the jury reached their verdict, they tell the alternate
jurors to leave the jury box because they're no longer needed.
And I'll never forget this beautiful woman of color who
was an alternate jura sitting down next to me and
holding my hand, and it was like she was saying
to me im in the jury pool. Are are with you?
(21:04):
So no, I know that was a long answer to you. No,
I did not think we were going to get him.
And do you think he'll get out? Do I think
he's going to get out? The parole process only allows
incarceration for up to twenty four months. Up to it
is automatically every two years, and it can be less
than every two years.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
By this, Elaine means if a prisoner has served their sentence,
they are entitled to a parole hearing every two years,
but for a variety of reasons, it can happen sooner.
Bob was due to have his next parole hearing a
while ago, but for reasons unknown to us, he keeps
a journeying it. It really could happen any day.
Speaker 6 (21:46):
Now.
Speaker 4 (21:47):
I know this is going to sound like cruel and
inhuman treatment, but for some reason they cannot contact me
and tell me that there's been a decision. So I
know every month when he's supposed to be there, and
I know two weeks later is when the decision can
be and I start to call the Office of Victim
(22:10):
Services on that day every day until I get an answer.
I think that lucky for us the transcripts of his
parole hearings are treasure troves. He's the same sociopathic, psychotic, lying, unremorseful,
(22:32):
and in the second hearing, the appeal hearing, one of
the commissioners of female went after him for the lying
shit he was. He kept saying, you know, I was angry,
and she said no, she defied you about smoking, she
defied you about going to a birthday party. It was
about bullying, violence and control. It wasn't about I'm immature
(22:56):
and I made a mistake. And I don't know if
he's ever getting out. I hope not, because unfortunately, people
like Andy Rosenswig, the chief investigator, has said to me,
you're in danger, really yeah, or he's going after my
kids to hurt me even more. And he's a tough guy.
(23:23):
I mean, I don't think he's saying this to me
because he wants to make me afraid.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
So what can we do to help you keep him in?
Speaker 4 (23:32):
You can send letters at every parole board hearing.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (23:37):
One of the things that he said at the first
parole board hearing that was very aggravating to me was
Gail was an anomaly. So if you experienced or anyone
you know, experienced a violent episode with him. The more
(23:58):
of those stories that are given to the parole board,
the more the parole board says Gail was not the anomaly.
It's not a one time thing.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
In twenty twenty, I stopped practicing critical care medicine and
went back to school to become a hospice and palliative
care physician.
Speaker 6 (24:29):
But what I've.
Speaker 5 (24:30):
Learned in the past years and have thought a lot about.
Speaker 6 (24:35):
Is.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
When you speak to someone who's dying, you ask them
how their body is, and then you ask them how
they are. And we may never find Gail's body, but
what an incredible legacy she has been the impetus for.
(25:02):
And a legacy is how the people who love you
remember you, and you have created an incredible legacy for her.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Thank you, mindy Elaine.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
You've kept her story alive and you've allowed her to
help countless numbers of women. And I get curio as
I say that, thank you, and so to think about
the number of women that you've helped us far and
the number of women that will be helped in the future.
Understanding that domestic violence has absolutely no boundaries.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
The power dynamic has to change, you know, rape is
not a sexual crime. It's a crime of power, which
is exactly the way I think about this horribly sad
story because in our own heads, we've created lives and
stories around this incident and it has had an enormous
(26:12):
power for all of us. But we have to be
united in a common idea that the endpoint is this
must stop, This cannot continue.
Speaker 1 (26:48):
You know, by hosting this podcast, I've really learned to
trust my inner voice, listen to my intuition. You know,
Gail knew that she was making a big mistake, but
Gail never deserve to have a mistake that ended in death,
and that could have been me. I didn't listen to
my intuition. And you know, when Maya Angela says, you know,
(27:11):
and I love that quote, when people show you who
they are, believe them. And Bob showed me who he
was on the first date. And Bob showed Gail who
he was consistently throughout the relationship. Yet she had a
lot of reasons for not believing him, or for thinking
that she could influence it with a better outcome, and
(27:35):
she paid the price for that with her life. And
I'm very very fortunate that I did not. I have
this mantra that I live by, and I think it's
applicable here. For me. I strive to always live my life,
perform my life better today than I performed yesterday. And
(27:55):
hosting this podcast has allowed me the opportunity to.
Speaker 8 (28:01):
I'm gonna cry, get to know Gail, get to know Elaine,
get to know the family and her friends, and I
have a much better understanding.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
That violence against women is an epidemic. It's been a problem,
and it continues to be a problem, and that I
just want to be part of that solution. Yeah, Elaine,
(28:44):
Carol the Torso, the torso that was found, do you
have some thoughts about her?
Speaker 4 (28:54):
I remember sitting in the hallway at the courthouse after
the testified Bob's trial. Charlie Hersh and I were sitting
on a bench and I turned to Charlie and I said,
are you absolutely sure that this isn't Gail? And he
(29:17):
said to me, very unfortunately, I am absolutely sure. And
I said to him, and what are you doing to
find out who she is so that another family gets
(29:37):
peace that I didn't get for so many years? And
he said, the best we can with the limited resources
and information that we have. She is someone who died
(29:59):
of violent death, and she was found in May of
nineteen eighty nine, by the way, like two days after
I got married. The anthropological studies determined that she was
probably murdered in early nineteen eighty nine, which was entirely
(30:22):
inconsistent with her being Gail.
Speaker 6 (30:23):
By the way.
Speaker 4 (30:24):
We all knew that at the time, but she was
seemingly Gail's age, and I feel terrible there's a family
out there that does not have closure.
Speaker 9 (30:41):
After the break, we tell you everything we know about
the Torso.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
For the best part of a year, my producer Anna
and her team have been trying to confirm the identity
of the torso that was misidentified as Gail. It never
felt right to reduce her existence to a cliffhanger and
just leave it at that. But even after hours and
hours of research and conversations with the Chief Medical Examiner's
(31:26):
office and local police forces, we have not been able
to confirm anything despite several very very promising leads. The
sad fact is trying to identify her really made it
hit home how many other women's stories are out there
not being told. In their search, Anna and our researcher
(31:47):
Maddie have gone through hundreds, if not thousands, of women's
cases on the Missing Person's database, and that was just
in the state of New York. Sadly, I can't tell
you all of their stories, but I did want to
give them a place in this podcast because they're our
girlfriends too. So if you all tell me when you're ready,
(32:10):
all to us up.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
Okay, I'm ready, I'm ready, Okay.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
These are some of the names of the missing and
murdered women from the state of New York, starting from
July seventh, nineteen eighty five, read to you by myself,
Mindy and Elaine.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
Helene Okay, Gail Kats, Rosa Westbrook, Aquila Hadric Flossi.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Wilbur, Olinthia Harper.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Helene Rubstein, Tammy McCormick, Candida Hernandez, Rita Fioretti, Cindy Rowl's,
Colleen Brooks, Erica fran Olich, Sassin, Eileen Newberger, Mary Monroe,
(33:05):
Francis Peters, Sandra Runkle.
Speaker 5 (33:10):
Sharon Pulaski, Gail richards Isabelle Rizzo, Francia Penna, Sonia, Archie
Ella Taylor, Elizabeth Mundelli, Shirley Klemngard, and Lubrono Norma Parkinson,
Monique Santiago.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Marilyn Mara Wilson.
Speaker 4 (33:34):
Marino, Barbara Lane, Jessica Soto, Harriet Hoyt, Norehen Hagucci.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Brown, Marie Musselia.
Speaker 6 (33:47):
Judith Geron, Ebony Trua.
Speaker 4 (33:51):
Denise Griffin, Elise Farmer, Leona Rodriguez, Tanya Blerov, Charmine Smalls,
Christa Nicol Belusko, Tiffany Dixon, Tonny Morgan Show, Mara Rodriguez,
Jong Pack, Lena han Enez, Silveria, Deborah Overbach, Margaret Reilly,
(34:20):
Teresa Schroeder.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Glenda Lee's Valentine.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
Evelyn Henriquez, Christine Marky.
Speaker 10 (34:29):
Suzanne Leol, Arlena Abbas, Elizabeth Bump, Judith Conrado, Stacy Pennant,
Sarah Wood, Tracy Collington, Erica Pavoca, Heidi Allen, Katherine Chiang,
Sandra Sali, Elizabeth.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
Busmann, Laura Williams, Jane Kelsey, An Jeannette Petrowski, Lucy Fuentez,
Charlotte Fuller, Robin Murphy, Joan Adler, Wen Wang, Katherine Minningham,
Sarah Hodgeney, Jennifer Boldock, Andrea Robinson, Sonya, Oliver Lori Bova,
(35:16):
Michelle Isan.
Speaker 1 (35:17):
Jennifer Gordon, Richard.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
Deine Middleton, Camden, Sylvia, Judith Vallos, Cynthia Boehmer, Sylvia Cabden,
leon Anna Savette, Belita Gambrell.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Kristen Kouka, Francis clark.
Speaker 4 (35:37):
As, Irene Silverman, To, Jonna Lupak, Cynthia Quarrels, Patricia Kendari,
Quenne Halsberg, Stiana Ignatovich, Debbie Ferris.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
Denise Hired, Me, Samea, Helen Young.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
Grace Gotamasso, Indira Monteiro, Francois.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Morsanria, Harriet Olson.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Lorraine Gruna, Jennifer Cool, Ashley, Carol, Patricia Bartza and Tiamanga Plassa.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Jack Dahlia Avria.
Speaker 11 (36:17):
Jennifer Manchoo, Ivy Mentor, Irena Trosha, Fritchen Walker, Marri Gorlan,
Hailey Wristler, Heather Ballard, Kaylin Martinez.
Speaker 6 (36:31):
Linda Mann, Montoya.
Speaker 12 (36:32):
Stevens, Faith Prescott, Alexandria Bolivoy, Thalia Dorses, Christine Pilhuli, Shannon Mary,
Sunnia Sultana, Marina, Patricia Banks, Casey Peterson, Amanda Ki.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Sharon Ross, Kathleen Wayner.
Speaker 4 (36:51):
Mikromini, Amy Goldberg.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
Rose, Marie Gary Leone, Patricia Cagiso, Barn, Dominique, Patra, Catria Kinwanas.
Speaker 6 (37:03):
Pamela, Ma Lane, April Parker.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
Cavou, qut Ivalis, Bonilla, Lauren Sha, Rosalina La Fontaines.
Speaker 4 (37:14):
Patricia Cabrera, Kaya, Harris, Tuncchia camp Fouris, Samia Lewis, Sophia Lovaina, Kashi, Conda, Holou,
Marrying Kolani, Margerita Rivera, Jamai Wesleyla.
Speaker 6 (37:30):
Surrenda, Angela Vershasia.
Speaker 4 (37:33):
Mercedes Fashion, Aliah Who, Maria.
Speaker 13 (37:37):
Brabazon, Heather Coburn, m Florine Bermudas, Heidi, shinogs Ni Serrando,
(38:38):
ok Torres, Ria.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Sonia Manic, Maria Akar.
Speaker 6 (38:44):
Narissa Comes, Veride, Bata, Shakia, Sunto, Jamie and.
Speaker 4 (38:49):
Jimenez, Debor Witkowski, Alba, Logos, Cassantra, Romirez, futom up.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
To, Marenievs, Rivera, Skylar, sinfon Jeannette, Charmela, Vimori Bizarro, Nanez.
Speaker 4 (39:06):
Prenicia Sarki, Zeta, Casanova, Tina, John Pierre, Manashi, Babanga, Somarbai, Rita, Hollis, Tooting,
Linn Karima, Melendres, Tunisia Write, Maya Krey, Fidelina Rablero Gonzalez Louren, Lcana,
(39:30):
Jessica Lopez, Regina Williams, Sunhi Miller, Laishanna Lapkowski, Tatiana Mohammad,
Kai Gorman, Cheyenne Lightfoot, Amaya Rashid, Tina Feinstein, Nivia Smith,
(39:51):
Diana Menjivar tersois.
Speaker 1 (39:54):
Brittany Dogado, Dogado. If you all made it with us
as far thank you, truth is, we could have kept going.
Speaker 4 (40:18):
I'm emotionally drained and I'm in awe of you contextualizing
where my sister stands in the universe.
Speaker 6 (40:36):
Thank You.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
The Girlfriends is produced by Novel for Ourheart Radio. For
more from novel, visit novel Dot Audio. The series is
hosted by me Carol Fisher and produced by Anna Sinfield.
Our assistant producer is Julian Manu, Gera Patten, and our
researcher is Madeline Parr. The editor is Veronica Simmons. Max
(41:34):
O'Brien is our executive producer. Our fact checker is Valeria Rocca.
Production management from Sharie Houston and Charlotte Wolf. Sound design,
mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempsen and Nicholas Alexander. Music
supervision by Anna Sinfield. Original music composed by Luisa Gerstein.
(41:57):
Story development by Isaac Fisher. Willard Foxton is creative director
of Development. Special thanks to Shawn Glynn, David Waters, Might
Hilly Rowl, Katrina Norvell, David Wasserman, and Beth Anne Mcaluso.
Speaker 5 (42:16):
Beeah ah yeah.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
We did reach out to Bob and his legal team
to ask if he'd like to comment on the podcast,
but we never heard back. Novel
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